/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-16 / end

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  7. # [00:38] * gsnedders should really update the photo he uses of him online
  8. # [00:44] <Philip`> Replace it with an SVG version
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  10. # [01:11] <Dashiva> I'm sure someone, somewhere made an image that creatres SVG images by converting each pixel into a 1x1 quad
  11. # [01:11] <Dashiva> *made a program
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  50. # [08:18] <hsivonen> Any suggestions of which <canvas>-based game I should demo for the maximal "wow" effect?
  51. # [08:22] <roc> maybe whatever the latest Wolf3D/DOOM one is
  52. # [08:24] * heycam remembers running along the wall, pressing Enter, hoping to find secret doors
  53. # [08:24] <roc> now we can create a Greasemonkey script for that
  54. # [08:29] <heycam> heh
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  60. # [08:58] <hsivonen> is this the state of the art in DOOM: http://www.benjoffe.com/code/demos/canvascape/textures
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  63. # [09:01] * hsivonen finds http://www.benjoffe.com/code/demos/canvascape/textures
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  66. # [09:15] <annevk> hmm, rel=canonical
  67. # [09:15] <annevk> didn't Atom already have something like that?
  68. # [09:16] <gavin_> rel=self
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  70. # [09:18] <annevk> yeah
  71. # [09:19] <annevk> so much for developing new features in the open
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  77. # [09:37] <roc> annevk: who?
  78. # [09:38] <gavin_> google
  79. # [09:38] <gavin_> http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/02/specify-your-canonical.html
  80. # [09:43] <roc> why are they using Firefox 2 in their screenshots?
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  83. # [09:49] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/
  84. # [09:50] * maikmerten is now known as maik|afk
  85. # [09:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: sorry, I couldn't figure out how to shoot the other guys in Canvex, so I used nihilogic's wolfenstein
  86. # [09:59] <hsivonen> you gotta shoot in a demo involving and FPS!
  87. # [09:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: Canvex is an intentionally non-violent game
  88. # [09:59] <Philip`> Also, I never bothered implementing weapons or gameplay logic
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  105. # [11:10] <yecril71> Even if explicit dependencies were allowed, the authors are unlikely to get it right.
  106. # [11:10] <yecril71> And it cannot be validated that the script does not rely on the stylesheet.
  107. # [11:11] <yecril71> So browser vendors will have to decide whether they prefer accuracy over efficiency.
  108. # [11:12] <yecril71> I think they will choose accuracy, meaning that they will have to ignore explicit dependencies.
  109. # [11:12] <yecril71> Houk.
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  111. # [11:20] <annevk> browsers could just run the script and block it when they encounter a dependency
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  113. # [11:22] <jgraham> annevk: Isn't that supposed to be quite difficult?
  114. # [11:24] <Philip`> particularly when the user or other scripts could interact with the document while it's blocked inside a script during loading
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  140. # [14:00] <Philip`> With the exciting discussion about normalising strings, did anyone already point out that http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 defines "match" saying "processors may normalize such characters to some canonical form", whereas the next version seemingly removes that language?
  141. # [14:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't recall anyone pointing that out.
  142. # [14:04] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata#E85
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  144. # [14:17] <Lachy> while I don't recall that point being explicitly raised, I believe it was pointed out that it would cause interop problems with having different implementations disagreeing about well-formedness
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  146. # [14:20] <hsivonen> are there easy-to-install Mac OS X binaries of thusnelda available?
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  149. # [14:31] <Lachy> what is thusnelda?
  150. # [14:33] <Philip`> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=thusnelda
  151. # [14:33] <Lachy> I just googled it
  152. # [14:33] <hsivonen> fwiw, I already googled, found source, not OS X binaries
  153. # [14:33] <Lachy> it's a theora encoder, apparently
  154. # [14:35] <jgraham> Philip`: But that just tells me that Thusnelda was the daughter of the Cheruscan prince Segestes
  155. # [14:36] <Philip`> jgraham: Move your eyes downards a bit
  156. # [14:36] <Philip`> s//w/
  157. # [14:37] <jgraham> Holy Crap! There's more than one result on Google? Who knew?
  158. # [14:39] <Philip`> jgraham: You could be forgiven for not noticing, if you browse the web at 320x240 with large fonts and don't know how to use scrollbars
  159. # [14:39] <jgraham> (actually the top result on Google isn't right that often. It's more like there's no point in having more than one page of results because people look at the second page so rarely)
  160. # [14:40] <hsivonen> more XML errors coming soon to a browser near you: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=174351
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  162. # [14:41] <hsivonen> It's amusing to see what kind of Gecko bugs I (and annevk) filed circa 2002
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  164. # [14:44] <Philip`> "With this patch applied it is no longer possible to view the following URL: http://wiki.mozilla-russia.org/index.php/Mozilla%20Firefox" - sounds like a highly beneficial patch
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  169. # [15:09] <hsivonen> http://realtech.burningbird.net/comment/reply/604/1144
  170. # [15:16] <Lachy> LOL
  171. # [15:16] * hsivonen is surprised to see Shelley Powers use a pharse like " most pedantic specification ever derived by man"
  172. # [15:16] <hsivonen> (the "by man" part)
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  174. # [15:17] <Lachy> that seems like something Mr Last Week would normally have commented on. I wonder what's taking him so long
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  176. # [15:19] <annevk> didn't he already?
  177. # [15:19] <annevk> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/02/we-hear-you-sister.html ?
  178. # [15:20] <Lachy> annevk, no, I meant the comment hsivonen linked to about the spec writing being an asshole
  179. # [15:21] <annevk> hsivonen, what is special about that part?
  180. # [15:22] <hsivonen> annevk: she has a history of pointing out sexism, and expressions like "by man" where 'man' means humans in general are generally frowned upon by English-language feminists
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  182. # [15:29] <annevk> oh, didn't know that
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  188. # [15:43] <hsivonen> I fail to understand the utility of http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6525
  189. # [15:45] <hendry> why is the whatwg twitter account printing garbage out like iilomijokud0?
  190. # [15:45] <hsivonen> hendry: anyone can update the status
  191. # [15:50] <hendry> hsivonen: eh? i assumed it would only be updated by the cabal :)
  192. # [15:51] <Philip`> hendry: "Update status" on http://www.whatwg.org/
  193. # [15:57] <hendry> seems a little too ripe for abuse.
  194. # [15:57] <Lachy> hendry, it seems to get relatively little abuse
  195. # [15:58] * Philip` looks for an anonymous proxy from which he can abuse it
  196. # [15:58] <Lachy> although given that all legitimate updates do seem to come from Hixie anyway, there seems to be little practical benefit of having it open.
  197. # [15:59] <hendry> Lachy: why is that? I had a feedback form that just got nuts over a month.
  198. # [16:00] <Lachy> I don't know why. I'm only commenting based on my observation of the amount of garbage compared with legitimate messages
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  201. # [16:01] <Philip`> Someone needs to set the status to "HTML5: Remove tag soup support; XML is the future. http://tinyurl.com/(...)" and link it to a fake version of the (X)HTML5 Tracking page with the appropriate patch
  202. # [16:01] <Dashiva> Link the HTML6 blog post? :)
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  204. # [16:02] <Philip`> Linking to a blog would make it obvious that it's not one of the usual automatic status updates
  205. # [16:02] <hsivonen> lots of posts here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa/2009Feb/
  206. # [16:03] <Lachy> Philip`, that sounds like a good idea for an April fools joke in about 6 weeks
  207. # [16:03] <Philip`> Lachy: But it's a bad idea now that I've revealed it here :-(
  208. # [16:03] <hsivonen> I wonder if Brad Neuberg's suggestion was serious or a joke based on Really Simple Syndication removing RDF: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa/2009Feb/0003.html
  209. # [16:04] <Lachy> it's alright. No-one reads the logs here anyway :-)
  210. # [16:05] <Dashiva> Except our friend
  211. # [16:06] <Lachy> do you mean Mr Last Week?
  212. # [16:07] <Dashiva> Yes
  213. # [16:07] <Lachy> I wouldn't really consider him a friend. But I suspect he's actually hanging out in the channel himself, rather than just reading the logs
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  215. # [16:09] * Philip` tries to look entirely not suspicious
  216. # [16:12] * Lachy 's no. 1 suspect for the identity of Mr Last week is now Philip` for looking suspicious
  217. # [16:15] <Philip`> Whoops, maybe I shouldn't have said anything
  218. # [16:18] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)
  219. # [16:18] * Philip` really likes having a single XML file listing all the attribute names/values from 130K pages, which he can just grep through
  220. # [16:19] <Lachy> Philip`, well, you are also one of the few members of the cabal who isn't regularly picked on by Mr Last Week ;-)
  221. # [16:19] <Philip`> That's because I'm just too awesome
  222. # [16:19] <Dashiva> Philip already has one alter ego (the other Philip) so there is a precedent
  223. # [16:21] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0117.html
  224. # [16:23] <Lachy> ah, right. It's all starting to add up now. On one hand, he's 1337 haxor doing a PhD, and on the other, he's a retired web developer/bureaucracy troll
  225. # [16:24] <Philip`> If I was going to have an alter ego, would I really choose one with the same name as me? That's really quite unsubtle
  226. # [16:25] <Dashiva> On the contrary, it's so unsubtle nobody would suspect it (except me)
  227. # [16:27] <Philip`> Sure, but I'd know you'd see through my plan to choose an alter ego with the same name as me so that I could argue it's implausible I'd do something so unsubtle, so clearly I would have chosen a different name to avoid this eventuality
  228. # [16:28] <Dashiva> And that's the clincher
  229. # [16:28] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  230. # [16:28] <Dashiva> You did choose a different name, Mr. Last Week, and you _also_ kept the original one
  231. # [16:29] <Dashiva> This way (you thought) you would keep at least one of them if the other was unmasked
  232. # [16:31] <Philip`> Grrr, meddling kids
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  247. # [17:36] <yorick> I'd like the drag&drop api to have some kind of "unsecure" prop, that makes you able to access the data on a dragover event
  248. # [17:36] <yorick> so I can change the cursor when dragging over something that can't be dropped there
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  254. # [18:01] * Philip` suggests that if one is working on a large informally-organised project for which there is even a slight possibility one might eventually decide to relicense it as open source, it's a pretty good idea to get everyone to agree to that from the start, or at least to maintain a list of contributors and contact details so you can ask them later if they're okay with it
  255. # [18:02] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  256. # [18:02] * Philip` is, on a somewhat related note, looking through an SVN repository with about seven thousand revisions and 75 committers to work out who's actually contributed anything significant
  257. # [18:12] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-137-57.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  258. # [18:13] <jgraham> Philip`: If you just had the foresight to tag all the data with RDF then you could point your Semantic Web tools at the repository, get a list of the committers, the significance of their changes and, by interacting with the extensive network of RDF data on the web locate the contributer's current email address position on open source and favourite brand of beer (the last being so that you could get any dissenters drunk enough to agree to relicensin
  259. # [18:14] <jcranmer> Philip`: only 7K revisions
  260. # [18:14] <jcranmer> ?
  261. # [18:14] <Philip`> jcranmer: 6669
  262. # [18:15] * jcranmer notes that mozilla-central is over 25K now
  263. # [18:15] <Philip`> Oops
  264. # [18:15] <Philip`> 6674
  265. # [18:15] <jcranmer> 24990 when I pulled it on friday
  266. # [18:15] <Philip`> jcranmer: This project isn't anywhere near as large as Mozilla :-)
  267. # [18:15] <Philip`> but it's large enough to be a bit of a headache to deal with
  268. # [18:15] <jcranmer> actually, I guess it was Saturday
  269. # [18:17] <Philip`> (Most people joined the project, made a handful of changes, and then vanished)
  270. # [18:18] <Philip`> (and a few people made loads of changes over loads of years, and then went to university and didn't have any more time but some are still kind of hanging around trying to stop the project dying)
  271. # [18:18] <jcranmer> which project?
  272. # [18:18] <Philip`> Some RTS game thing
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  320. # [22:12] <roc_> grrr
  321. # [22:12] * roc_ is now known as roc
  322. # [22:12] <roc> looks like I have to subscribe to public-html
  323. # [22:12] * roc girds loins
  324. # [22:13] <Dashiva> You can camp the archive page instead
  325. # [22:14] * annevk would welcome roc; the more sensible people write to public-html, the less I have to :p
  326. # [22:14] <roc> Dashiva: no, I may need to contribute
  327. # [22:14] <Dashiva> That's still possible
  328. # [22:14] <roc> besides I'd rather have it in gmail so I can kill threads etc
  329. # [22:16] <gsnedders> That means having time to actually deal with more emails coming in.
  330. # [22:17] <roc> it's not much time, but yes, that's why I've tried to avoid this step
  331. # [22:17] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@61.88.219.66)
  332. # [22:17] * gsnedders made the mistake of subscribing when he had vastly more time
  333. # [22:17] <Hixie> roc: what do you want to contribute to?
  334. # [22:17] * Hixie wonders if he missed a productive thread recently
  335. # [22:17] <gsnedders> productivity? peh!
  336. # [22:18] <roc> I should probably follow the video-related stuff at least
  337. # [22:18] <Hixie> ah, yes, the video stuff
  338. # [22:19] * gsnedders wonders whether he should go to Edinburgh and do the degree that Hixie wants him to do :P
  339. # [22:20] <Hixie> hey hey
  340. # [22:20] <Hixie> do what YOU want to do
  341. # [22:20] <Hixie> i just said that physics would give you a better set of career options than compsci, that's all :-P
  342. # [22:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: Issue: I don't know what that is :)
  343. # [22:21] <Dashiva> Do one, then the other
  344. # [22:21] <Hixie> certainly don't do something you don't want to do :-)
  345. # [22:21] <gsnedders> Part of me really does want to go and do comp.phys., but part of me really wants to go to somewhere like Cambridge for comp.sci.
  346. # [22:21] <gsnedders> Meh.
  347. # [22:22] <gsnedders> Issue with the latter is it would mean re-applying having been rejected on legally dubious grounds
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  351. # [22:50] <roc> physics a better set of career options than compsci???
  352. # [22:51] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  353. # [22:51] <Philip`> Computer science sets you up for a good job in investment banking
  354. # [22:51] <Philip`> or at least it did a year ago - maybe things have changed a bit now
  355. # [22:52] <Dashiva> roc: I think it was comp.phys., not theoretical physics
  356. # [22:53] <roc> Philip`: well, the high-end quant jobs also go to physicists
  357. # [22:53] <gsnedders> roc: Better insofar as more diverse, certainly
  358. # [22:54] <gsnedders> roc: What counts as better is awfully subjective :)
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  360. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Dashiva: computational physics, theoretical physics… There isn't much difference nowadays
  361. # [22:54] <roc> I doubt it's more diverse
  362. # [22:55] <roc> everyone needs good compsci people, whether they say so or not
  363. # [23:02] <Hixie> roc: you can get any job a compsci job will get you with a phys degree if you have computer experience, in my experience
  364. # [23:02] <Hixie> roc: the reverse is not the case
  365. # [23:02] <roc> maybe
  366. # [23:02] <roc> but why not study in the area you're actually going to work in?
  367. # [23:03] <roc> I don't know if your experience is typical; I hope you're not just talking about yourself :-)
  368. # [23:07] <gsnedders> roc: It is typical
  369. # [23:07] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  370. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Hixie may be egoist and self-centered, but… :P
  371. # [23:07] <Philip`> You should go to university for the pleasure of learning, or for being with likeminded individuals, or for having three hours of work a day and six months of holiday a year, not simply for optimising your job prospects :-p
  372. # [23:08] <roc> if you go to university entirely for pleasure, I hope you're paying the full cost of your education
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  374. # [23:09] <Dashiva> You'll be working 40 years afterwards, you might as well enjoy life while you can :P
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  380. # [23:27] <roc> sure, as long as taxpayers aren't paying for it
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  392. # Session Close: Tue Feb 17 00:00:00 2009

The end :)