/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:41] <Dashiva> There doesn't seem to be any discussion at all in the xhtml2 list about the namespace issue
  9. # [00:43] <annevk> that discussion is just painful and not going anywhere
  10. # [00:44] <annevk> besides the fact that nobody is really bringing up any arguments browser vendors haven't heard before
  11. # [00:45] <annevk> so it just feels like a waste of time
  12. # [00:45] <annevk> but so far I have invested like one minute in it two write an example and delete a bunch of e-mails, so nothing too bad
  13. # [00:45] <annevk> s/two/to/
  14. # [00:46] <annevk> (admittedly, probably half an hour, to also be able to read/skim the e-mails)
  15. # [00:48] <Dashiva> Nobody has brought up xhtml1 yet, like Hixie suggested
  16. # [00:52] <Lachy> Dashiva, I thought I broght it up
  17. # [00:52] <annevk> RB did too though he would like to be pointed out specifics
  18. # [00:53] <Lachy> RB has already has specifics pointed out to him (<input>, <select>, <textarea>, <label>). He just chooses to ignore them
  19. # [00:55] <annevk> maybe that's not detailed enough for him
  20. # [00:55] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478665 is interesting
  21. # [00:55] <Lachy> I just don't get how he can ignore such elements with vastly different, incompatible processing requirements, and yet still focus on elements like <small> with minor refinements to their semantics, but with no change to their processing requiements
  22. # [00:57] <annevk> he studies something close to philosophy; from that perspective it might not matter much
  23. # [00:59] <roc> alright, who's stalking me
  24. # [01:00] * annevk might be; forgot who he follows
  25. # [01:01] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.169)
  26. # [01:02] <othermaciej> I have this vague recollection that David Baron once wrote a fairly detailed piece on chameleon namespaces and why they are a problem
  27. # [01:02] <othermaciej> does anyone know where to find it?
  28. # [01:02] <othermaciej> (or is my recollection incorrect?)
  29. # [01:03] <annevk> I don't have the original, but http://dev.w3.org/2006/cdf/cdi-framework/#importing has bits
  30. # [01:03] * annevk hunts for the original
  31. # [01:04] <othermaciej> I did find that - was hoping to find the original
  32. # [01:06] <Hixie> the whole discussion is a waste of time
  33. # [01:06] <Hixie> xhtml5 can't change to another namespace, because if it did the browser vendors would ignore it
  34. # [01:06] <othermaciej> I know
  35. # [01:07] <Hixie> whether xhtml2 uses the same namespace or not is really neither here nor there -- if it uses the same namespace, then it won't ever be implemented by web browsers
  36. # [01:07] <othermaciej> but I'd like to also explain to Larry why the idea of changing namespaces as a versioning mechanism is a bad idea even compared to other proposed versioning mechanisms
  37. # [01:08] <othermaciej> although really his discussion mixes up versioning and XHTML2-conflict-avoidance as if they were related when to me they seem clearly not
  38. # [01:08] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-cdf/2006Feb/0009.html has the original
  39. # [01:08] <annevk> Member-only :/
  40. # [01:10] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/2006/cdf/cdi-framework/#importing
  41. # [01:10] <Hixie> i'm amused that you forgot you put that in there :-)
  42. # [01:11] <annevk> see backlog?
  43. # [01:11] <othermaciej> I was hoping to find the original reference but blech, I'm not gonna cite a member-only link
  44. # [01:12] <Hixie> oh, i see
  45. # [01:12] <Hixie> my bad :-)
  46. # [01:12] * Hixie hides
  47. # [01:12] <othermaciej> actually I just realized this isn't directly relevant to the message I am drafting but I'll save it for future reference
  48. # [01:13] <annevk> you could also ask dbaron is you could cite it in full
  49. # [01:16] <Lachy> othermaciej, if you respond again, can you trim the CC list so I'm not in it, unless you're quoting me
  50. # [01:16] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  51. # [01:17] <othermaciej> Lachy: sorry for the spam
  52. # [01:21] <Lachy> changing the MIME type as Larry suggests creates other problems too. Surely there's been enough trouble with the lack of support the the existing XHTML MIME type, that introducing a new one isn't in anyone's best interest
  53. # [01:21] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)
  54. # [01:21] <othermaciej> it seems like such an obviously bad idea that it's actually hard work to articulate all the various things wrong with it
  55. # [01:23] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  56. # [01:23] <Lachy> that's the same problem with all of Larry's proposals
  57. # [01:24] <othermaciej> well, that's the sort of thing you get when you start proposing and getting emotionally attached to solutions before actually getting informed about the problem
  58. # [01:25] <Lachy> Larry apparently isn't interested in understanding the problem http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0365.html
  59. # [01:26] <Dashiva> It should've stopped at "The xhtml2 group created the problem, they get to solve it"
  60. # [01:32] <dbaron> annevk, othermaciej: any particular advise on where in the thread I should repost it?
  61. # [01:33] <othermaciej> dbaron: I don't think it needs to be reposted, unless someone seriously proposes changing the XHTML namespace URI in HTML5
  62. # [01:34] <Lachy> dbaron, you could just post it to www-archive as it could be useful for future reference
  63. # [01:34] <othermaciej> dbaron: but it seems like no one is seriously advocating that, just using it as a pretext to argue for other brands of crazy
  64. # [01:34] <dbaron> Lachy, I was just about to do that
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  66. # [01:34] <othermaciej> dbaron: I briefly got confused about it though
  67. # [01:36] <Lachy> I wonder how long it will take for others to use those arguments against chameleon namespace as an argument for why XHTML2 can't change namespace either, under the delusion that XHTML2 is a compatible successor to XHTML1
  68. # [01:37] * dbaron has not exactly been following the thread (especially having been on an actual vacation this weekend)
  69. # [01:37] <dbaron> Lachy, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0065.html
  70. # [01:37] <Lachy> wait... you go on vacations without having to constantly read email? I don't know how that's possible.
  71. # [01:38] <dbaron> No, a vacation means only reading email 20-30 minutes a day. :-P
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  74. # [02:02] <Hixie> it really doesn't matter if someone proposes changing the namespace for xhtml5, since that would never get the support of the browser vendors.
  75. # [02:03] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.244.17.210)
  76. # [02:04] <othermaciej_> Hixie: you're just part of the evil browser-vendor/search-engine-provider conspiracy
  77. # [02:04] <Hixie> well, yes
  78. # [02:04] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.169) (Nick collision from services.)
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  80. # [02:05] <Dashiva> Don't forget natural-language-processing
  81. # [02:05] <othermaciej> how dare you provide users with information
  82. # [02:05] <Hixie> (if you can have a conspiracy in public)
  83. # [02:05] <Dashiva> #whatwg-secret-treehouse
  84. # [02:06] <jcranmer> I'm not part of said conspiracy!
  85. # [02:06] * Hixie finally gets around to reading the namespace thread
  86. # [02:06] <Hixie> good lord people
  87. # [02:06] <Hixie> wtf
  88. # [02:07] * Dashiva ponders semantic email
  89. # [02:09] <Hixie> this entire thread is completely crazy
  90. # [02:09] <Hixie> there's no mime type for DOM manipulation
  91. # [02:09] <jcranmer> Dashiva: ew!
  92. # [02:09] <Hixie> there's no DOCTYPE for DOM manipulation
  93. # [02:09] <Hixie> there's no attribte for DOM manipulation
  94. # [02:09] <jcranmer> I'm scared of real HTML mail (e.g., someone using marquee)
  95. # [02:09] <Hixie> all you have is a namespace and a tag name
  96. # [02:09] <Lachy> I don't even know what a "DOCTYPE for DOM manipulation" is
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  98. # [02:10] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think Larry has a somewhat muddled view of element identity
  99. # [02:10] <Hixie> createElementNS(ns, tag) is ALL we have to do versioning with
  100. # [02:10] <jcranmer> Hixie: onload="document.getElementById('foobar').addChild(document.createTextNode('DOM manipulation'));" ?
  101. # [02:10] <Hixie> any solution that requires more than an ns/tag pair is not going to work
  102. # [02:11] <jcranmer> you're doing DOM manipulation in an attribute
  103. # [02:11] <othermaciej> I'm not really clear on his idea of "different languages sharing the same vocabulary"
  104. # [02:11] * jcranmer returns to the thread debating whether or not infinity is a valid mathematical concept
  105. # [02:12] <Dashiva> I think it's like <i> getting redefined, kinda
  106. # [02:12] <othermaciej> from my naiive implementor point of view, a QNAME uniquely defines the operational behavior of the element
  107. # [02:14] <othermaciej> I can see how you could make a different language which has elements from the same set, but (say) a different set of nesting rules so that the valid grammar is different
  108. # [02:14] <othermaciej> but that's really not what is going on with HTML5 and XHTML2
  109. # [02:16] <Hixie> Lachy: if you want an example of an xhtml2-1 incompatibility, consider <img src=404 alt="XHTML1">XHTML2</img>
  110. # [02:16] <Lachy> oh, yeah, that's another one I forgot about
  111. # [02:17] <Hixie> hey, xhtml2 hasn't got profile="" either
  112. # [02:17] <Lachy> though RB is likely to ignore that one too since, IIRC, he has repeated proposed that we adopt the same approach in XHTML5
  113. # [02:17] <Lachy> (or maybe it was someone else)
  114. # [02:17] <Hixie> oh i wouldn't worry about arguing with rob
  115. # [02:17] <Hixie> i just meant in general
  116. # [02:18] <Lachy> I'm not going to argue with him. He's at the top of my do-not-respond list for a reason
  117. # [02:19] <Hixie> i don't understand how xhtml2 UAs are supposed to distinguish between <style src=""> and <span src=""> for the purposes of rendering
  118. # [02:19] <Hixie> is src="" just special on <style>?
  119. # [02:20] <Hixie> another example would be <script src="a" type="text/javascript" srctype="text/vbscript"/>
  120. # [02:21] <Lachy> XHTML2 doesn't have a <script> element any more
  121. # [02:21] <Lachy> they renamed it to handler
  122. # [02:21] <Hixie> oh well then even better
  123. # [02:21] <Hixie> should that show as an image or run script?
  124. # [02:21] <Hixie> xhtml2 is very confusing. why does <style> use src="" but <link> use href=""?
  125. # [02:22] <Hixie> man this spec is so much like html4
  126. # [02:22] * Hixie closes the tab
  127. # [02:23] <Lachy> we have similar problems with HTML5 too. Why have <script src=""> for scripts, but <link href=""> for stylesheets? (I know we're stuck with it for historical reasosn, but it's inconsisent)
  128. # [02:23] <Dashiva> Like html4 in all the wrong ways? :)
  129. # [02:30] <Hixie> Lachy: in html5, src and href are not global attributes
  130. # [02:30] <Hixie> Lachy: so there's no conflict or confusion
  131. # [02:30] <Hixie> well, there's confusion.
  132. # [02:30] <Hixie> but not to the same level.
  133. # [02:31] <Hixie> in xhtml2, <link href="data:text/css,link { display: block; }" rel="stylesheet" src="image"/> is a non-clickable image
  134. # [02:32] <Hixie> whereas <style src="data:text/css,style { display: block; }" href="document">link</style> is a clickable text link
  135. # [02:32] <Hixie> which makes no sense to me
  136. # [02:32] <othermaciej> wait, what?
  137. # [02:32] <Hixie> exactly.
  138. # [02:33] <Lachy> heh
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  143. # [03:13] <john_fallows> does the concept of origin require a port to be specified, such as http://www.whatwg.org:80 or can a default port be assumed, such as http://www.whatwg.org ?
  144. # [03:14] <Hixie> an origin typically consists of {scheme, host, port}
  145. # [03:14] <Hixie> there's no syntax, though, so I'm not sure exactly what you mean
  146. # [03:14] <Hixie> an origin is just a triple
  147. # [03:14] <Hixie> that is, the "concept of origin" has no syntax
  148. # [03:32] <john_fallows> ic, so what would the canonical syntax be for postMessage event.origin, or the Origin header for cross-site access control, http://www.whatwg.org (without the default port) ?
  149. # [03:32] <Hixie> oh that's the serialisation of the orogin
  150. # [03:32] <Hixie> origin, even
  151. # [03:33] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#unicode-serialization-of-an-origin
  152. # [03:33] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#ascii-serialization-of-an-origin
  153. # [03:33] <Hixie> (depending on where you are using it)
  154. # [03:34] <Hixie> and then to parse it back into an origin triple, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#origin
  155. # [03:34] <john_fallows> thanks Hixie, that's the section i was looking for :-)
  156. # [03:35] <Hixie> which you use depends on what you're doing
  157. # [03:36] <Hixie> (postMessage() and Origin: use different ones, in particular)
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  159. # [03:45] <john_fallows> the HTML 5 postMessage section seems to reference Unicode / ASCII serialization as the value of event.origin, and cross-site access control refers back to ASCII serialization in HTML 5
  160. # [03:45] <john_fallows> http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/#origin-ascii
  161. # [03:46] <john_fallows> how do postMessage and Origin header serializations differ?
  162. # [03:46] <john_fallows> sorry, how do postMessage event.origin and Origin header serializations differ?
  163. # [03:47] <Hixie> postMessage is unicode, i think, and origin header is ascii, i hope
  164. # [03:48] <john_fallows> ok, now i understand - thanks
  165. # [03:49] <Hixie> was the spec not clear on this?
  166. # [03:49] <Hixie> i should fix it if not
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  168. # [03:50] <john_fallows> no that's fine - i had missed the serialization section, and then just wanted to clarify your comment regarding a difference between postMessage and cross-site, since I was asking specifically about the need to include a default port when you mentioned there was a difference
  169. # [03:50] <john_fallows> it's all very clear now though - thanks for the clarification.
  170. # [03:51] <Hixie> make sure to follow links in the spec
  171. # [03:51] <Hixie> they're there for a reason :-)
  172. # [03:52] <Hixie> that is, there should be a link from the postMessage() bit that talks about origin to the relevant origin sections -- if there isn't, of course, please do tell me!
  173. # [03:52] <john_fallows> ok, i'll certainly let you know if I discover a problem like that
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  175. # [03:54] <franksalim> There is no link in the WebSocket handshake section which mentions the origin value "encoded as US-ASCII"
  176. # [03:55] <franksalim> by the way :-)
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  178. # [03:59] <Hixie> really? crap.
  179. # [03:59] * Hixie looks
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  181. # [03:59] <Hixie> franksalim: the "origin" value at that point is a string, not a triple
  182. # [04:00] <Hixie> the serialisation happens in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-websocket
  183. # [04:00] <Hixie> step 4
  184. # [04:00] <Hixie> i guess i could make that clearer
  185. # [04:03] <franksalim> Hixie: i see now. i think what confused me was that the serialization and the conversion to lowercase were split into two steps
  186. # [04:04] <Hixie> hm, why do i lowercase it
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  191. # [04:17] <Hixie> franksalim: i updated the spec, is it clearer now?
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  193. # [04:20] <franksalim> Hixie, yes it is, and thank you for clarifying
  194. # [04:20] <Hixie> Lachy: i finally worked out what was causing the multipage copy to have weird problems with the update detection stuff
  195. # [04:20] <Hixie> franksalim: my pleasure!
  196. # [04:20] <Hixie> Lachy: it should be better now
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  200. # [04:37] * Hixie reluctantly joins the versioning debate in attempt to reduce the amount of e-mail he gets
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  223. # [08:37] <zcorpan> wow <head><isindex> is really weird in opera
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  225. # [08:45] <annevk> not too weird given how <isindex> works elsewhere
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  227. # [08:48] <zcorpan> annevk: the weird part is that we get two <head>s
  228. # [08:52] <annevk> oh, hadn't noticed that :D
  229. # [08:52] <zcorpan> our html parser creates a siamese twin!
  230. # [08:52] <annevk> we should have a easter egg that whenever there's three <head>s we start playing that scene from Monty Python
  231. # [09:05] <annevk> so Hixie really did stop the discussion or did I just stop receiving e-mail at that point?
  232. # [09:05] <Hixie> which discussion
  233. # [09:06] <annevk> the one with lots of things I don't care about: media types, namespaces, and versioning
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  235. # [09:07] <Hixie> ah
  236. # [09:07] <Hixie> i guess so
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  246. # [10:02] <annevk> Hixie, form submission should also use character encoding mapping rules
  247. # [10:02] <annevk> Hixie, e.g. iso88591 is windows1252 for the purposes of form submission
  248. # [10:03] * jgraham discovers his email wasn't working properly yesterday
  249. # [10:03] <annevk> Hixie, do you want a bug on that?
  250. # [10:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <isindex> seems to add name="isindex" to all elements in the tree (except the <form>) in the gecko html5 build
  251. # [10:05] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.91.16.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  252. # [10:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also affects other documents that are parsed afterwards
  253. # [10:09] <Hixie> annevk: yes please
  254. # [10:10] * zcorpan exposes the isindex bug at v.nu
  255. # [10:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: (sorry i just wanted to see if it worked, didn't mean to bump priority)
  256. # [10:12] <zcorpan> hmm found another bug
  257. # [10:12] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.16.92) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  258. # [10:13] <zcorpan> guess i should file them
  259. # [10:15] <Hixie> annevk: i disagree with that bug actually. The browser should use ISO 8859-1 if that's what the author set.
  260. # [10:16] <zcorpan> Hixie: so what should be done with curly quotes?
  261. # [10:16] <annevk> that would break pages Hixie
  262. # [10:17] <annevk> (it's what Opera at the moment)
  263. # [10:17] <Hixie> opera bug#?
  264. # [10:17] <Hixie> zcorpan: what do you mean?
  265. # [10:17] <annevk> CORE-10326
  266. # [10:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: author says <meta charset=iso-8859-1>, user submits U+201C
  267. # [10:19] <Hixie> annevk: that site isn't coming up for me
  268. # [10:20] <annevk> Hixie, given that all other browsers do the mapping, we're going to follow them to avoid future issues
  269. # [10:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: 4.10.15.3:6.1
  270. # [10:22] <Hixie> annevk: is there an actual site affected by this that's still up?
  271. # [10:22] <zcorpan> Hixie: ?
  272. # [10:22] <Hixie> zcorpan: "For each character in the entry's name and value that cannot be expressed using the selected character encoding, replace the character by a string consisting of a U+0026 AMPERSAND character (&), one of more characters in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9) representing the Unicode codepoint of the character in base ten, and finally a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;)."
  273. # [10:22] <annevk> Hixie, the most recent dupe was 2008-09 complaining about not being able to use Spanish characters
  274. # [10:23] <annevk> Hixie, other dupes are complaining about not being able to use the euro sign for login/password; it definitively seems like something that needs to be fixed
  275. # [10:24] <Hixie> annevk: i believe that it happens, i'm just looking for an actual working site i can test
  276. # [10:24] <Hixie> the most recent dup has no url
  277. # [10:27] <annevk> can't help you with that I'm afraid
  278. # [10:27] <Hixie> well if there's no actual affected site...
  279. # [10:28] <annevk> I didn't say that ;)
  280. # [10:29] <Hixie> how have you determined that this is the actual underlying problem in these cases if you have no site to check this against? :-)
  281. # [10:29] <zcorpan> "If the token has an attribute called "action", set the action attribute on the resulting form element to the value of the "action" attribute of the token." - html5lib doesn't seem to do this
  282. # [10:30] * Quits: webben (n=webben@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  283. # [10:32] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  284. # [10:32] <zcorpan> (isindex)
  285. # [10:33] <jgraham> zcorpan: File a bug or send email or something
  286. # [10:33] <jgraham> Or provide a patch, I guess ;)
  287. # [10:33] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-164.dynamic.amis.net)
  288. # [10:33] <zcorpan> doesn't support prompt either
  289. # [10:34] <annevk> has HTML5 been updated to include these attributes?
  290. # [10:34] <annevk> I seem to recall there were more
  291. # [10:36] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  292. # [10:36] <annevk> are there any two browsers that implement <isindex> in the same way that do not share a rendering engine?
  293. # [10:36] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
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  295. # [10:38] <zcorpan> annevk: not that i'm aware of :)
  296. # [10:38] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl)
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  298. # [10:39] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't get any other attributes do anything in ie
  299. # [10:40] <annevk> enctype?
  300. # [10:40] <annevk> method target?
  301. # [10:40] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  302. # [10:40] <zcorpan> nope
  303. # [10:40] <zcorpan> they end up on the <input>
  304. # [10:46] <zcorpan> jgraham: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=87
  305. # [10:50] <annevk> I think the same goes for <keygen>, that element is a mess as well
  306. # [10:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: Thanks
  307. # [10:51] * jgraham notes that the versioning thread is pure undistilled crazy
  308. # [10:51] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-ab7bd8cf8e764bb0)
  309. # [10:51] <jgraham> s/un//
  310. # [10:52] <annevk> so much material for standards suck and we're not doing anything with it...
  311. # [10:53] <Hixie> keygen is for april
  312. # [10:53] <Hixie> i think i have enough info on it now
  313. # [10:53] <annevk> cool
  314. # [10:54] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-164.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  315. # [10:56] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  316. # [10:59] <zcorpan> "It will do so for all feeds that contain ten or more entries all with the same id." - http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/02/15/White-House-Feed-Now-Declared-Invalid
  317. # [10:59] <zcorpan> so 9 duplicate ids is ok but 10 is not?
  318. # [10:59] <annevk> it's not like feed readers do anything with duplicate IDs anyway
  319. # [11:00] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah that seems odd
  320. # [11:00] <annevk> e.g. Google Reader has an interesting bug I found out about
  321. # [11:00] <annevk> I have feed 1 (RSS) and 2 (Atom)
  322. # [11:00] <annevk> I redirect 1 to 2 (via 301)
  323. # [11:01] <annevk> Google Reader treats them as separate feeds and always has entries marked as unread in both despite them using the same Atom ID
  324. # [11:02] <annevk> there's probably a feed reader or two that handles this stuff correctly, but whether it is worth all the trouble of making Atom IDs required...
  325. # [11:04] <Philip`> zcorpan: I think 2..9 is a warning (because it's probably incorrect but the checker can't tell if you're actually using it legitimately), and 10 is an error because you're almost certainly using it incorrectly
  326. # [11:05] <jgraham> Is the use case for repeated atom:ids in a single feed an entry that gets udated without deleting the previous atom:entry
  327. # [11:06] <jgraham> Philip`: But it is not actually invalid per spec is it? So it seems wrong to make a validator signal that it is invalid even though it almost certianly is
  328. # [11:14] <Philip`> jgraham: A useful validator seems more valuable than a validator that's pedantically correct according to the spec in weird edge cases that will never occur in practice
  329. # [11:20] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.133.45.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  330. # [11:20] <annevk> Philip`, if you make <canvas> testcases again maybe include tests for drawImage(document.createElement("canvas"), ...) together with globalCompositeOperation does the right thing
  331. # [11:21] <annevk> ok, that sentence does not run quite right, but you get the idea
  332. # [11:21] <Philip`> annevk: You mean an empty not-yet-drawn to canvas, in particular?
  333. # [11:21] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  334. # [11:22] <annevk> Philip`, yes, in theory such a canvas is transparent black and has a certain width/height
  335. # [11:22] * Philip` adds it to his list of things to maybe write tests for eventually
  336. # [11:34] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@203.171.195.110)
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  340. # [11:47] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-ab7bd8cf8e764bb0) ("Lost terminal")
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  345. # [11:59] * Hixie reluctantly posts on sam's blog
  346. # [12:00] <Lachy> Hixie, the new defintion for <small> is better
  347. # [12:00] <Hixie> good
  348. # [12:08] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-176-52.dsl.telstraclear.net)
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  353. # [12:34] * Parts: annevk (n=opera@77.163.243.203)
  354. # [12:44] <hendry> what are the reasons again for not using iso8601? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#valid-date-string # someone i think has told me this before, but I forgot :)
  355. # [12:46] <Philip`> hendry: Do you mean using the whole of ISO 8601, or a subset of it?
  356. # [12:46] <hendry> Philip`: either or
  357. # [12:47] <hendry> Philip`: i guess html5 define a subset as the whole thing is too complex?
  358. # [12:47] * Philip` (based on about zero knowledge) would guess that the whole of ISO 8601 is too complex a thing to require, and what's in the spec maybe is a compatible subset
  359. # [12:48] <hendry> ok, sounds familiar
  360. # [12:48] <zcorpan> iirc iso8601 allows crazy things like comments
  361. # [12:48] <Philip`> Also I'd guess (based on never having read it or anything so I'm probably wrong) ISO 8601 doesn't define how to parse invalid strings
  362. # [12:52] * Joins: annevk (n=opera@77.163.243.203)
  363. # [12:54] <gsnedders> zcorpan: No, it doesn't
  364. # [12:54] <gsnedders> hendry: Backwards compatible
  365. # [12:54] <gsnedders> hendry: Stuff already uses whitespace instead of "T" for example
  366. # [12:54] <gsnedders> Also, ISO8601 allows three different forms for the date
  367. # [12:55] <gsnedders> (Which is stupid because nobody cares about any apart from YYYYMMDD)
  368. # [12:55] <hendry> thanks guys! i need to write a little blog entry next
  369. # [12:56] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.166.221.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  370. # [12:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: You mean nobody except for everybody who cares about dd/mm/yyyy and mm/dd/yyyy etc?
  371. # [13:02] <Lachy> Philip`, people who care about using dd/mm/yyyy and mm/dd/yyyy can be ignored because those formats are annoyingly ambiguous
  372. # [13:05] <jgraham> Lachy: It is easier just to ignore people who use mm/dd/yyyy since that is crazy. dd/mm/yyyy is only marginally worse than yyyymmdd
  373. # [13:06] * Lachy will use yyyy-dd-mm from now on just to confuse everyone
  374. # [13:08] <jgraham> mmyyyydd ftw
  375. # [13:08] <Philip`> I like ymydymyd
  376. # [13:08] <jcranmer> mydymyd is better
  377. # [13:08] <jcranmer> er, mydymydy
  378. # [13:09] <jcranmer> 02102079!
  379. # [13:09] <Philip`> How about mydyrmydy, where 'r' stands for a random digit?
  380. # [13:09] <jcranmer> f!
  381. # [13:20] * hendry blogs http://dabase.com/blog/HTML5_is8601/
  382. # [13:22] <zcorpan> hendry: gsnedders says it doesn't allow comments
  383. # [13:22] <zcorpan> so i was probably thinking of something else, like email addresses
  384. # [13:25] <annevk> or media types, wtf
  385. # [13:25] <jgraham> http://hydracen.com/dx/iso8601.htm
  386. # [13:26] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-24-71.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  387. # [13:27] <annevk> btw, http://forum.krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081202#l-100
  388. # [13:27] <annevk> was the original discussion for that issue
  389. # [13:27] <krijnh> forum ?
  390. # [13:27] <krijnh> What the
  391. # [13:28] * annevk copied the URL from Google
  392. # [13:28] <zcorpan> http://foobar.krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081202#l-100
  393. # [13:28] <hendry> annevk: thanks, i'll add that
  394. # [13:28] <svl> exploit spammers try forum.*.tld and in time that filters through to google
  395. # [13:28] <svl> rel="canonical" to the rescue - or something... :)
  396. # [13:29] <krijnh> Nah, redirects
  397. # [13:29] <krijnh> One moment.. :)
  398. # [13:29] <krijnh> F5 ?
  399. # [13:29] <krijnh> (Can't test it from my within my LAN)
  400. # [13:30] <svl> wfm
  401. # [13:31] <krijnh> foobarshizzle. gets redirected?
  402. # [13:31] * krijnh wonders why he didn't do that already..
  403. # [13:31] <annevk> ja
  404. # [13:32] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "<table>test" results in a text node for each character
  405. # [13:46] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@118.71.76.18)
  406. # [13:47] <zcorpan> hmm? <ruby> is one of the escape-foreign-lands tags?
  407. # [13:48] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  408. # [13:54] <annevk> i wonder how much would break if we make that list empty
  409. # [13:55] <annevk> i.e. never escape
  410. # [13:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah, foster parenting text sucks
  411. # [13:57] <hsivonen> I just gave my HTML5 lecture
  412. # [13:57] <hsivonen> time to see if the recording is any good
  413. # [13:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: How did it go?
  414. # [13:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: I mostly didn't get mixed up in my words and I got a few questions
  415. # [14:00] <annevk> any interesting questions?
  416. # [14:00] <hsivonen> the questions were about when can HTML5 features be used, are there JS implementations, relationship of new elements to microformats and RDFa, extensibility
  417. # [14:01] <annevk> fun :)
  418. # [14:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also see earlier in the logs; i've broken v.nu (nothing will validate until you restart the service)
  419. # [14:02] * hsivonen looks
  420. # [14:02] <hsivonen> good thing my demos were all playback and didn't rely on live services working
  421. # [14:02] <zcorpan> :)
  422. # [14:02] <jgraham> :)
  423. # [14:03] <hsivonen> http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org WFM
  424. # [14:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org
  425. # [14:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: now, that's weird
  426. # [14:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i only validated <isindex> on v.nu, not h.v.nu
  427. # [14:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: they're different instances, right?
  428. # [14:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: aah. yeah. I've fixed this bug in svn.
  429. # [14:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes, different instances
  430. # [14:05] <zcorpan> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=446
  431. # [14:06] <hsivonen> what happened was that the singleton that represents empty attributes accidentally got attributes added to it
  432. # [14:06] <zcorpan> why did that affect <body>?
  433. # [14:10] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-757df707ea4764b4) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  434. # [14:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: if there was a body without attributes, the empty attributes singleton got used
  435. # [14:13] <zcorpan> interesting
  436. # [14:13] <hsivonen> restarted with the same bogus code. uploading a fix now
  437. # [14:13] <annevk> no questions about why we didn't use XForms and such?
  438. # [14:13] <hsivonen> annevk: no
  439. # [14:14] <hsivonen> annevk: the exercise for the course relies on server-side XForms--not client side
  440. # [14:14] <hsivonen> (with Orbeon)
  441. # [14:14] <annevk> ok
  442. # [14:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks for finding the bug. I thought it only affected the buffered mode--not the streaming mode
  443. # [14:17] <zcorpan> welcome :)
  444. # [14:20] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-24-71.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  445. # [14:21] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-d665aa50c8a92615)
  446. # [14:24] <hsivonen> now, to distribute the recording of my lecture in a proper HTML5 <video> dogfood fashion, I should encode it as Theora...
  447. # [14:24] * hsivonen wants a Thusnelda build of XiphQT or ffmpeg2theora
  448. # [14:26] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@77.167.54.81)
  449. # [14:29] * jgraham wonders if there is a term for a single, unmached codepoint that is supposed to form a surrogate pair
  450. # [14:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: lone surrogate?
  451. # [14:30] <jgraham> I guess. Or simply "surrogate"
  452. # [14:30] <annevk> surrogate character?
  453. # [14:31] <annevk> nm
  454. # [14:31] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap/archive/2005/07/27/444101.aspx
  455. # [14:31] <annevk> :)
  456. # [14:32] <annevk> it's a surrogate code point
  457. # [14:33] <Philip`> jgraham: There aren't any codepoints that are supposed to form a surrogate pair
  458. # [14:34] <Philip`> There's just codepoints that happen to be numerically equal to some of the values used by UTF-16 to encode surrogates, but those codepoints are not supposed to be anything at all :-)
  459. # [14:35] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@203.171.195.110) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  460. # [14:35] * Philip` suggests using the term "U+D800..U+DFFF"
  461. # [14:35] <annevk> that's a range
  462. # [14:35] * Philip` suggests using the term "a codepoint in the range U+D800..U+DFFF"
  463. # [14:37] <jgraham> Philip`: The Unicode FAQ uses the term surrogate code point
  464. # [14:37] <hsivonen> at least when encoded as UTF-16 they are code *units*
  465. # [14:40] <Philip`> jgraham: Sure, but "a codepoint in the range U+D800..U+DFFF" might be clearer/obviouser depending on the context and audience
  466. # [14:40] * Philip` can imagine people interpreting "surrogate code point" as meaning "a code point that has to be represented using surrogates" or something like that
  467. # [14:44] <hsivonen> eww. my microphone sucked
  468. # [14:45] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-43-109.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  469. # [14:45] <hsivonen> my words are comprehensible, but it sounds like I'm in some kind of muffled container
  470. # [14:46] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/9 has interesting results in browsers - in particular it makes ie8 freeze
  471. # [14:48] <zcorpan> (maybe because the parser tries to insert stuff into something that has been garbage collected)
  472. # [14:54] <zcorpan> i think firefox is correct for that test
  473. # [14:54] <zcorpan> (the second script isn't executed because the script is not inserted to the document)
  474. # [14:59] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  475. # [15:00] <zcorpan> Hixie: i uploaded http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/10 but your server is saying 404 not found
  476. # [15:02] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3D%22w(1) - executes per html5 and in moz but not in ie/opera/webkit
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  479. # [15:17] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  480. # [15:21] * ap_ is now known as ap
  481. # [15:21] <aroben> hi ap!
  482. # [15:21] <aroben> hi everyone!
  483. # [15:21] <ap> hi aroben!
  484. # [15:24] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-14-27.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  485. # [15:36] <hsivonen> grr. Keynote's QuickTime export insists on writing to the boot volume even when told to save to another volume
  486. # [15:43] <zcorpan> hsivonen: sometimes in the live dom viewer with the gecko html5 build, the doctype disappears in the dom view
  487. # [15:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'll have to look into that. thanks
  488. # [15:44] <hsivonen> is there a way to debug XHR serialization without an echoing script?
  489. # [15:46] <hsivonen> "Or, if this fails because the Document cannot be serialized act as if data is null."
  490. # [15:46] <hsivonen> I want to see when that happens
  491. # [15:46] * hsivonen starts live HTTP headers
  492. # [15:48] <hsivonen> annevk: the spec should be clearer on when a documunt cannot be serialized
  493. # [15:48] <hsivonen> annevk: it seems that "xmlns:dublincore" local name in no namespace serializes in Gecko
  494. # [15:52] <annevk> the idea is that the spec uses the same serialization tricks as HTML5 for XML
  495. # [15:52] <annevk> unless the content is HTML in which case it uses the HTML serialization tricks
  496. # [15:57] <zcorpan> "</head><!>" puts the comment after head
  497. # [15:58] <zcorpan> but "</body><!>" doesn't put the comment after body
  498. # [15:58] <zcorpan> why this assymetry?
  499. # [15:58] <zcorpan> Hixie?
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  505. # [16:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.damowmow.com%2Fplayground%2Fdemos%2Fflash%2F001.html reproducably gives an internal error
  506. # [16:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it also has two warnings about the hyphens in <![endif]-->
  507. # [16:30] * Joins: billmason (n=bmason@ip102.unival.com)
  508. # [16:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it seems "<param>" with the html4 schema reproduces the internal error
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  515. # [16:43] <rubys> jgraham: ping?
  516. # [16:43] <jgraham> rubys: Hej
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  519. # [16:43] <rubys> I don't have a moderation queue... I just say I do to scare off spammers.
  520. # [16:44] <jgraham> rubys: Oh, well I got some message about it. Was there some button I was supposed to click? Maybe I didn't look too hard
  521. # [16:44] <rubys> "submit"
  522. # [16:45] <jgraham> Oh right. I obviously got confused by the UI :)
  523. # [16:45] <jgraham> Nevermind :)
  524. # [16:45] * Philip` wonders (while we're on the subject of rubys's site) whether rubys saw the issue on http://intertwingly.net/stats/internalsearches.html
  525. # [16:45] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-08acd321487a09de)
  526. # [16:45] <rubys> Cool! Nope. Will take a look at that.
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  528. # [16:47] <rubys> I have a log of 3238 spam attempts in the past 24 hours (much lower than normal). None contain jgraham - I scanned in a case insensitive manner
  529. # [16:49] <rubys> 7 contain 'graham', but all are clearly spam.
  530. # [16:50] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  531. # [16:50] <rubys> jgraham: at this point, I don't believe I have the comment; please consider resubmitting it.
  532. # [16:52] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)
  533. # [16:52] <jgraham> rubys: At this point I don't believe that *I* have the comment either ;) I will think about rewriting it.
  534. # [16:54] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-d665aa50c8a92615) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  535. # [16:55] <rubys> in the log, I see attempts to post at 12:24Z and 13:25Z, but both match Shelley's IP and browser; I don't see any POST request to that entry in between.
  536. # [16:58] <rubys> which is weird, as you don't see the message about moderation until a POST request is issued
  537. # [16:59] <jgraham> You are looking at Yesterday, right?
  538. # [16:59] <jgraham> s/Y/y/
  539. # [16:59] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  540. # [17:00] <rubys> oh, I was looking at today. I don't keep logs of aborted comments for more than 24 hours
  541. # [17:00] <gsnedders> Lachy (if you see this): you want YYYYMMDD without the separators to confuse people
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  546. # [17:24] <Philip`> gsnedders: I suggest an alternate way of dealing with the world, in which confusing people is not a goal
  547. # [17:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's boring.
  548. # [19:26] * Disconnected
  549. # [19:26] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  550. # [19:26] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  551. # [19:26] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  552. # [19:26] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  553. # [19:29] * malware is now known as MikeSmith
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  557. # [19:49] <annevk> haha, what is RB smoking? I want too!
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  565. # [20:19] <annevk> and it continues
  566. # [20:21] <annevk> on a related note, it seems the people on www-tag only half read e-mails or so
  567. # [20:22] <annevk> no wonder they are so frequently confused
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  569. # [20:28] <annevk> (hi there, mr last week!)
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  571. # [20:31] * gsnedders wonders who Mr Last Week is, again
  572. # [20:32] <peter_12> The HTML 5 spec doesn't give guidance on the intuitive choice between strong and em tags. Is there any way to choose?
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  575. # [20:34] <annevk> peter_12, doesn't it state that one is for marking up importance and one for emphasis and gives examples and stuff?
  576. # [20:35] <peter_12> annevk: it gives examples in both but it doesn't make it clear
  577. # [20:35] <gsnedders> It does
  578. # [20:35] <annevk> peter_12, interesting, could you explain why you think it is not clear?
  579. # [20:36] <peter_12> annevk: the explanations hinge on the difference between the phrases "stress emphasis" and "strong importance"
  580. # [20:36] <peter_12> those English phrases are not intuitively different.
  581. # [20:37] <peter_12> I'd say they could be synonymous.
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  583. # [20:37] <annevk> you don't think emphasis and importance are different things?
  584. # [20:37] <peter_12> no
  585. # [20:37] <annevk> then again, I'm not a native speaker, so what do I know
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  588. # [20:38] <peter_12> also using the word "emphasis" in the em description is a circular definition
  589. # [20:38] <peter_12> the same for using "strong" in the strong tag description
  590. # [20:38] <annevk> element names do not mean anything so I'm not sure it is
  591. # [20:39] <peter_12> In English we emphasis something in our speech because it is important. That blurs those two phrases together immediately.
  592. # [20:40] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.87.224.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Client Quit)
  593. # [20:40] <annevk> e-mail public-html-comments@w3.org or whatwg@whatwg.org or so?
  594. # [20:43] <gsnedders> The difference is in the nuances. They are different words.
  595. # [20:44] <gsnedders> karlcow had some good diagram of the overlap somewhere on w3.org/2007
  596. # [20:44] <peter_12> gsnedders: nuance is not a good spec quality
  597. # [20:44] <peter_12> people misinterpret nuance all the time
  598. # [20:45] <gsnedders> Emphasizing something is giving special attention to it; importance is a statement that is crucial
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  601. # [20:50] <peter_12> gsnedders: that is not a clear distinction to me
  602. # [20:50] <peter_12> you want to give special attention to something that is crucial
  603. # [20:51] <peter_12> annevk: sent to whatwg@lists.whatwg.org
  604. # [20:53] <annevk> cheers
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  643. # [23:33] * yecril71 is reading forms.html#application/x-www-form-urlencoded-encoding-algorithm
  644. # [23:33] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-201cdcb013952db5)
  645. # [23:33] <yecril71> Is it correct that extraneous characters should be sent as &XXXX;?
  646. # [23:33] <yecril71> MSIE7 sends them as &#XXXX;, i.e. NCRs.
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  648. # [23:36] * yecril71 ís computer has just run out of virtual memory
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  653. # [23:52] * yecril71 pings from http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533033(VS.85).aspx#ctl00_rs1_WikiContent_ctl00_Container
  654. # [23:54] <annevk> seems that Kristof just pointed out that issue yecril71
  655. # [23:59] * Parts: billmason (n=bmason@ip102.unival.com)
  656. # Session Close: Wed Feb 18 00:00:00 2009

The end :)