/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:18] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@65.210.82.235)
  4. # [00:18] * Hixie adds a "+" to his regexp on the .../saved script so that /saved/10 works...
  5. # [00:19] <Hixie> i wonder if the rdfa people will actually reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa/2009Feb/0098.html
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  12. # [00:53] * yecril71 s name is Kristof, actually.
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  38. # [02:02] <alyoshka> there's a small mistake on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html
  39. # [02:02] <alyoshka> at #punctuation-and-decorations
  40. # [02:03] <alyoshka> towards the end: [dir=ltr] { direction: lrt; unicode-bidi: embed; }
  41. # [02:03] <alyoshka> should be: [dir=ltr] { direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; }
  42. # [02:06] <Hixie> hanks
  43. # [02:06] <Hixie> thanks even
  44. # [02:06] <alyoshka> ur welcome
  45. # [02:07] <alyoshka> but I can guess how that got in there :P
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  47. # [02:07] <virtuelv> whoah, this is impressive: http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/touch.html
  48. # [02:11] <alyoshka> pretty nice
  49. # [02:13] <alyoshka> just need some 3d acceleration
  50. # [02:14] <virtuelv> alyoshka: try in Opera 10 - it's about a zillion times faster than FF
  51. # [02:15] <alyoshka> I'm using Opera 9.something
  52. # [02:15] <alyoshka> I'll just patiently wait for Opera 10 for now
  53. # [02:19] <inimino> that is impressive
  54. # [02:21] <virtuelv> alyoshka: 10 can be installed alongside 9, fwiw
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  56. # [02:32] <Hixie> for those with member access, http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/survey2009/results
  57. # [02:32] <Hixie> the score for "W3C Work Priorities" is ironic given that 5 years ago the w3c told us that working on html was a bad idea
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  59. # [02:32] <olliej> virtuelv: and interestingly broken in webkit
  60. # [02:32] * olliej wonders what's going wrong
  61. # [02:33] <virtuelv> hm, I tried with what I thought was epiphany-webkit, and it worked
  62. # [02:36] <olliej> virtuelv: yeah i just verified on another system
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  64. # [02:36] <olliej> i think i hve a patch in my tree that has broken canvas in interesting ways
  65. # [02:36] <olliej> ah yeah
  66. # [02:36] <olliej> i have broken little things, like drawing images onto canvas
  67. # [02:37] * olliej whistles nonchalantly
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  74. # [03:14] <Hixie> annevk?
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  76. # [03:14] <othermaciej> hmmm, I wonder what XHTML 1.2 is about
  77. # [03:19] <Hixie> why does reloading http://junkyard.damowmow.com/365 in safari/webkit give different results each time?
  78. # [03:19] <Hixie> it doesn't happen if you load the pages themselves
  79. # [03:19] <Hixie> weird
  80. # [03:22] <Hixie> ok clearly webkit gets disqualified from this race.
  81. # [03:22] * Hixie looks at the other UAs
  82. # [03:27] <othermaciej> what's that page testing?
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  90. # [03:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: whether %xx sequences in name="" attributes are percent-decoded before matching
  91. # [03:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: (apparently required behavior if you follow the relevant RFCs and decode fragment identifiers at all before comparing them to name="" attributes)
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  95. # [03:58] <Dashiva> It seems RB drifts more towards pure trolling for every email...
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  103. # [05:01] <roc> hmm, that jscloth demo seems pretty fast in FF3.1
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  133. # [08:50] <billyjackass> hsivonen: you still looking for canvas demos?
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  136. # [09:30] <annevk> "It doesn't seem CSS-specific; it would apply to any styling mechanism." seems pretty weak; does this mean we can now argue for <img border=0> again; it's not CSS-specific after all...
  137. # [09:30] <annevk> (quote is from the <iframe seamless> thread)
  138. # [09:30] <Hixie> border=0 is a styling mechanism itself
  139. # [09:31] <Hixie> the reason we don't want it in html5 is that we are deprecating that styling mechanism
  140. # [09:31] <Hixie> seamless isn't a styling mechanism
  141. # [09:31] <annevk> you should have said that then ;)
  142. # [09:32] <annevk> btw, does seamless affect querySelector() ?
  143. # [09:33] <Hixie> annevk: said what?
  144. # [09:34] <annevk> that it isn't a styling mechanism
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  146. # [09:34] <annevk> I'm more interested in the querySelector() question though
  147. # [09:34] <Hixie> as far as i can tell it doesn't affect querySelector(), why would it? if there's something in the spec that suggests otherwise, please let me know
  148. # [09:34] <Hixie> regarding the styling mechanism thing, why would i say that? isn't it obvious that it's not a styling mechanism?
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  150. # [09:42] <annevk> I guess I read your reply the wrong way
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  152. # [09:57] <annevk> hsivonen, according to this NFC FAQ a Google "study" has shown that 99.98% of Web content is NFC at the moment... doing Unicode normalization definitely seems like overkill now
  153. # [10:00] <Hixie> wow
  154. # [10:00] <Hixie> 99.98% without that even being a rule or anything
  155. # [10:00] <Hixie> that's astounding
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  157. # [10:06] <hsivonen> annevk: that's content excluding markup. more to the point for the purpose of Selectors, see the % figure for markup
  158. # [10:08] <annevk> I was wondering how id= and class= values are counted, but I suppose you're right
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  162. # [10:29] <Lachy> annevk, where is that NFC FAQ?
  163. # [10:30] <Lachy> ah, found it in www-style
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  273. # [11:00] <yecril71> Why does MSIE need an ActiveX object to display the specification?
  274. # [11:01] <yecril71> GUIDs are susceptible to brute-force attacks only if they are not random enough.
  275. # [11:02] <yecril71> What number of attempts is needed to guess a GUID of a known MAC and timestamp?
  276. # [11:03] <yecril71> And we can have <htmlarea><fragment-GUID>...</fragment-GUID></htmlarea> for XHTML.
  277. # [11:04] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-71.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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  279. # [11:07] <Hixie> the activex ithing is a bug in IE
  280. # [11:07] <Hixie> thing
  281. # [11:10] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  282. # [11:14] <yecril71> I guess so, but triggered by what?
  283. # [11:15] <yecril71> MSIE is soo slow at it that I cannot investigate it in any real time.
  284. # [11:20] * Hixie recommends not using IE to view the spec
  285. # [11:21] <Hixie> there's probably some <object> in the document somewhere
  286. # [11:22] * yecril71 recommends not using Microsoft Windows, but it is irrelevant
  287. # [11:23] <Hixie> that too
  288. # [11:24] <Philip`> annevk: (Also see http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-class-values.txt and http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-id-values.txt for NFCness of id/class, if you haven't already)
  289. # [11:26] <yecril71> What is so hard to understand in a proposal to add a reveal event?
  290. # [11:27] <Hixie> i don't know, i often don't understand your proposals for some reason
  291. # [11:27] <yecril71> The problem is I do not understand why you do not understand.
  292. # [11:27] <Hixie> me neither
  293. # [11:27] <yecril71> Give me any hint what you are missing.
  294. # [11:28] <Hixie> what is the problem you are trying to solve?
  295. # [11:28] <yecril71> Garrett had a problem with hashchange and history.
  296. # [11:28] <yecril71> I am trying to solve his problem.
  297. # [11:28] <Hixie> what is his problem?
  298. # [11:29] <yecril71> I have to dig it up from the archive, just a minute.
  299. # [11:29] <Hixie> how do you know if your proposal solves his problem if you don't know the problem?
  300. # [11:29] <Hixie> (this is why including relevant context in e-mails is important.)
  301. # [11:31] <yecril71> Well, I knew it when I was replying.
  302. # [11:31] <Hixie> how do you know that my reply to your reply doesn't solve the problem also?
  303. # [11:32] <yecril71> Because it does not introduce the difference between real events and AJAX events.
  304. # [11:32] <yecril71> And it is just an observation, not a solution.
  305. # [11:33] <yecril71> (Of course, the observation is perfectly valid).
  306. # [11:35] <Hixie> i have no idea what "real events" and "ajax events" are
  307. # [11:36] <yecril71> real events = browser scrolls
  308. # [11:36] <yecril71> AJAX events = content changes
  309. # [11:37] <yecril71> (better names: physical vs logical events)
  310. # [11:37] <yecril71> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-September/016184.html
  311. # [11:39] <yecril71> That is, AJAX uses the action of navigating to a nonexisting bookmark to modify content.
  312. # [11:40] <yecril71> It is possible because a hash change event is generated that the script can intercept.
  313. # [11:41] <yecril71> The problem of adapting the display after scrolling is quite different.
  314. # [11:42] <Hixie> i don't understand what you are trying to say
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  316. # [11:42] <yecril71> The script can react to a reveal event by reorganizing floating windows that it maintains on the display.
  317. # [11:43] <Hixie> what's this got to do with onhashchange at all?
  318. # [11:43] <Hixie> i'm really very confused
  319. # [11:43] * annevk too
  320. # [11:43] <Hixie> mind you, i don't understand garrett's e-mail either
  321. # [11:43] <yecril71> Currently, the hash change event has to serve both purposes.
  322. # [11:44] <yecril71> It is not a good situation because they are quite different.
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  325. # [11:48] <yecril71> The practical difference would also be that reveal events would bubble.
  326. # [11:49] <Hixie> could you explain what the second purpose that onhashchange is serving is?
  327. # [11:49] <yecril71> When the reader successfully navigates to a bookmark on the page.
  328. # [11:49] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-d76695897b64f9f9)
  329. # [11:50] <yecril71> (using an internal link)
  330. # [11:51] <yecril71> In this situation, we only get hash change, and there is no difference from fake navigation.
  331. # [11:56] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-d76695897b64f9f9) ("Lost terminal")
  332. # [11:58] <annevk> in what scenario would a page/app mix both styles?
  333. # [11:59] <Hixie> and even if one did, why would we want to distinguish them? the whole point is to make "ajax navigation" work like regular in-page navigation.
  334. # [12:00] <yecril71> Isnt AJAX navigation supposed to change the content of the page?
  335. # [12:01] <yecril71> When an application uses both fake navigation and custom layout?
  336. # [12:01] <yecril71> (i.e. custom dynamic layout)
  337. # [12:02] <Hixie> it can do whatever the app wants to do
  338. # [12:03] <yecril71> Whereas regular in-page navigation changes only the part displayed.
  339. # [12:03] <Hixie> such usage wouldn't need the event
  340. # [12:04] <yecril71> And updates the layout of secondary windows to match the fragment displayed.
  341. # [12:05] <yecril71> (in response to the hypothetical event)
  342. # [12:05] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  343. # [12:05] <Hixie> wouldn't that just be a stylistic issue? and thus belonging in css or xbl or some such layer?
  344. # [12:06] <yecril71> You cannot detect collisions in CSS, can you?
  345. # [12:06] <Hixie> that's a question for the css group
  346. # [12:06] <jgraham> Is it specified somewhere what to do with % coded overlong utf8 sequences in URLs?
  347. # [12:06] <Hixie> jgraham: presumably the same place as it is specified what to do with binary-coded overlong utf-8 sequences
  348. # [12:07] <yecril71> I guess the CSS group would answer that detecting collisions is not supported.
  349. # [12:07] <yecril71> And I do not think there is any reasonable declarative way for it to be.
  350. # [12:08] <Hixie> i didn't say it had to be declarative
  351. # [12:08] <yecril71> CSS is declarative.
  352. # [12:08] <Hixie> currently, yes
  353. # [12:08] <Hixie> so?
  354. # [12:08] <yecril71> I think it is not going to change.
  355. # [12:09] <Hixie> whether it changes or not is not the concern of the html5 work
  356. # [12:09] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-67-100.dynamic.amis.net)
  357. # [12:10] <yecril71> Whether the developer can use a script to do things exceeding the capacity of CSS is.
  358. # [12:10] <Hixie> no. using scripts and apis in html for presentational concerns isn't appropriate.
  359. # [12:11] <Hixie> the whole point is that with html we are media-independent
  360. # [12:11] <Hixie> media-specific concerns should be in the css, xbl, or other presentation-specific layers
  361. # [12:11] <yecril71> Busted.
  362. # [12:14] <jgraham> Hixie: Hmm. OK I guess RFC 3629 is pretty clear that they are invalid and so should fail somehow. I'm still not sure quite _how_ they should fail though (options include: raise an error, leave them % encoded, replace them with uFFFD)
  363. # [12:15] <Hixie> jgraham: they should fail in the same way that anything else would fail, e.g. 0xFF, i presume
  364. # [12:15] <jgraham> Hixie: Which is?
  365. # [12:16] <Hixie> varies based on the context, but e.g. if you are trying to "resolve a url" in html5, it would cause the resolution algorithm to further fail, and typically stops whatever was being attempted.
  366. # [12:17] <jgraham> OK, that sounds sensible.
  367. # [12:17] * jgraham is actually wondering what the behavior of decodeURI(Componet) should be
  368. # [12:18] <Hixie> html5 defines all this for its own apis and features, in theory
  369. # [12:18] <Hixie> can't speak for other specs that html5 doesn't extend, though
  370. # [12:21] <jgraham> afaict ECMAScript specifies that you should decode overlong sequences to their actual value, which seems bad and wrong (and is also not implemented consistently)
  371. # [12:21] <Hixie> what do they say to do for 0xFF?
  372. # [12:22] <jgraham> I think that gets decoded too
  373. # [12:22] <Hixie> to what?
  374. # [12:22] <jgraham> Er, maybe I am wrong, evry implementation throws URIError there
  375. # [12:23] <jgraham> s/evry implementation/every implementation for which I have a shell open
  376. # [12:23] * gsnedders needs to draw diagrams of the setup of his physics experiments. ewww.
  377. # [12:23] * gsnedders can't draw
  378. # [12:24] <jgraham> Yeah, I am wrong. It throws.
  379. # [12:30] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.39)
  380. # [12:32] <gsnedders> What do you call one of those things which both act to measure things and as something you can put things on on runners, normally for optics?
  381. # [12:32] <gsnedders> /terrible explanation
  382. # [12:32] <jgraham> A light bench? But I have no idea how that sould "act to measure thing"
  383. # [12:33] <Philip`> Call it "Equipment A"
  384. # [12:33] <jgraham> What's the name of the IE JS engine?
  385. # [12:33] * gsnedders tries to find a photo of what jgraham means
  386. # [12:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: JScript
  387. # [12:34] <gsnedders> Actally, no
  388. # [12:34] <gsnedders> *Actually
  389. # [12:34] <gsnedders> Windows Script implements JScript, and Trident uses that
  390. # [12:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess you don't mean http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=%22light%20bench%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi :)
  391. # [12:37] <yecril71> What is Windows Script?
  392. # [12:37] <jgraham> It seems like I meant Optical BEnch
  393. # [12:37] <jgraham> *Bench
  394. # [12:37] <gsnedders> Yeah, I was just looking that up
  395. # [12:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: Some Optical Benches have rulers built-in
  396. # [12:38] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh. Maybe I even used one
  397. # [12:39] <gsnedders> Off hand the majority of the ones the uni here has do
  398. # [12:39] * jgraham hasn't done any practical physics for 6 1/2 years
  399. # [12:39] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, I knew that'd be a bit of a problem :)
  400. # [12:44] * jgraham tries mailing es-discuss
  401. # [12:45] * gsnedders is having issues with not actually knowing what a lot of equipment is called :P
  402. # [12:54] <fearphage> jgraham: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(Document_Object_Model)
  403. # [12:57] <jgraham> fearphage: That is the layout engine not the ecmascript engine
  404. # [12:57] <jgraham> afaict
  405. # [12:57] <gsnedders> That is correct
  406. # [12:59] <fearphage> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(ECMAScript)
  407. # [12:59] <fearphage> it is indeed comparing the ecmascript engines. the documents are just named poorly
  408. # [13:00] <gsnedders> That does give the ECMAScript Engine names in very small print
  409. # [13:07] <Hixie> i planned to get to 500 pending e-mails by end-of-march
  410. # [13:07] <Hixie> which is possible if you go by the progress chart
  411. # [13:07] <Hixie> but there is a problem
  412. # [13:07] <Hixie> i don't have 500 e-mails' worth of feedback that isn't blocking on something that i don't plan to do until after march
  413. # [13:08] <Hixie> so the lowet i can get is about 1000
  414. # [13:08] <Hixie> lowest
  415. # [13:08] <Hixie> bummer
  416. # [13:09] <Hixie> (i just hit a new low since records began, btw)
  417. # [13:15] <hsivonen> oh yeah, one interesting question yesterday after the prepared lecture that I forgot to mention: demos about how HTML5 degrages gracefully
  418. # [13:15] <hsivonen> I only had demos of HTML5 stuff working in nightly builds
  419. # [13:17] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-43-109.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  420. # [13:19] <gsnedders> It's sad how easy it is to get libxml2's XMLWriter API to output stuff that isn't well-formed
  421. # [13:19] <gsnedders> Just throw in a U+FFFF in most places and stuff breaks
  422. # [13:28] * Quits: darin__ (n=Darin@nat/google/x-cea8d90406362d47) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  423. # [13:29] * gsnedders wonders how to draw an optical bench as a vector
  424. # [13:33] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  425. # [13:35] <Philip`> Hixie: "since records began" is a bit meaningless, since the real value you started with is 0 and the start of records is an arbitrary point :-p
  426. # [13:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: A horizontal line
  427. # [13:35] * gsnedders facedesks
  428. # [13:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: Abstract away the unnecessary details :-)
  429. # [13:36] * gsnedders meant to just take a photo and label that
  430. # [13:36] <gsnedders> But I, uh, forgot to take that photo
  431. # [13:41] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-3d0a6a79e46d09b5)
  432. # [13:54] <Lachy> Philip`, I think he means since the data recorded here http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
  433. # [13:54] <Lachy> which looks like it goes back to about October 2007
  434. # [13:55] * Joins: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/x-23d8b125782db769)
  435. # [13:57] <Lachy> Hixie, I think the description is backwards. "The vertical axis represents e-mails for the green line and issue notes in the spec for the teal line". It looks like the teal line is supposed to represent the number of emails and the green line the number of issue notes
  436. # [13:58] <Lachy> in fact, neither line is teal. One is blue, the other is green.
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  439. # [14:01] <Philip`> One is aqua and one is lime
  440. # [14:02] <Lachy> "The fat line is a moving average." - I was wondering which line this was referring to, and then I noticed when I look at my screen at an angle, I can just make it out. It's completely invisible to me if I look straight on at my screen. Can you make it a bit darker?
  441. # [14:03] * Quits: annevk (n=opera@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  442. # [14:05] <Philip`> It'd be nice to have a strokeStrokeStyle so the edges of the line could be made more prominent
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  452. # [14:44] <Philip`> http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/02/04/recreating-the-button.html - "To get that band of color and fake the gradient, I had to insert one more element in the button code. I chose <b> because it was short, and semantically, it didn’t mean anything."
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  455. # [14:52] <myakura> https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=411391 "We will track the issue and hope to address it in a future version of IE." :-(
  456. # [14:58] <Philip`> myakura: Does that have any effect on anything other than the stringified name?
  457. # [14:59] <Philip`> "typedef StaticNodeList NodeList;" (and the bits about non-liveness) makes them sound identical except the name
  458. # [14:59] <Philip`> and I can't imagine the name being a real interoperability problem
  459. # [15:01] <myakura> Philip`: yeah. i don't think that would cause problems either. just thought i could've told them at the beta stage.
  460. # [15:01] <hsivonen> aargh. Keynote's recording feature and export is borked
  461. # [15:02] <hsivonen> about 1 hour into the slideshow, slide transitions, video playback and sound get out of sync
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  467. # [15:39] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2009/02/17-svg-minutes.html
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  469. # [15:39] <annevk> "<ChrisL> so if I have an svg file, its in shift-jis say so it needs an xml declaration to state the encoding. then it gets wrapped in html, there is an xml encoding declaration in the middle and it breaks? thats bogus"
  470. # [15:39] <annevk> I wonder why that is bogus. E.g. if you do that with XHTML it breaks too...
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  472. # [15:42] <annevk> seems it will take a while longer :/
  473. # [15:43] <gsnedders> annevk: It breaks? Wouldn't it just be treated as a normal PI?
  474. # [15:43] <Lachy> it's non-trivial to include SVG within an (X)HTML file, and have the SVG markup encoded in a different encoding from the surrounding HTML document, and the idea of including an XML declaration within it is nonsense
  475. # [15:44] <annevk> gsnedders, data:text/xml,<root><?xml version="1.0"?></root>
  476. # [15:45] <annevk> I'm very surprised that Chris Lilley suggests such a thing. I wonder what's up
  477. # [15:45] <gsnedders> annevk: I can't find anything in the XML spec that requires that
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  479. # [15:50] <gsnedders> I now have no more swap space.
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  481. # [15:51] <Lachy> gsnedders, it is a well-formedness requiement because of this:
  482. # [15:51] <Lachy> prolog ::= XMLDecl? Misc* (doctypedecl Misc*)?
  483. # [15:51] <Lachy> PI ::= '<?' PITarget (S (Char* - (Char* '?>' Char*)))? '?>'
  484. # [15:51] <Lachy> PITarget ::= Name - (('X' | 'x') ('M' | 'm') ('L' | 'l'))
  485. # [15:51] <gsnedders> Oh, I missed PITarget ::= Name - (('X' | 'x') ('M' | 'm') ('L' | 'l'))
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  488. # [15:53] <annevk> "The document type declaration MUST appear before the first element in the document."
  489. # [15:53] <annevk> oops
  490. # [15:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: Allocate a RAM disk to use as emergency swap space
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  497. # [16:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: Are you aware that the form element pointer magic doesn't hapen in livedom.validator.nu
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  504. # [16:56] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes. I don't know a public API for making it happen.
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  507. # [17:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: Ah, fair point
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  517. # [18:03] <jgraham> Does anyone have IE to test http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/12 for me?
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  522. # [18:12] <zcorpan_> jgraham: log: true log: true log: true
  523. # [18:12] <Lachy> jgraham, "Internet Explorer has modified this page to help prevent cross-site scripting..."
  524. # [18:12] <Lachy> damn IE sucks so much
  525. # [18:12] <jgraham> Oh, interesting.
  526. # [18:12] <jgraham> Er, not that IE sucks. That seems pretty clear
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  529. # [18:20] <jgraham> What happens with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/13
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  539. # [18:50] <jgraham> Lachy: Do you still have IE? 11:18 < jgraham> What happens with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/13
  540. # [18:51] <Lachy> I would have to start up VMWare to get it now that I'm home
  541. # [18:51] <Lachy> and I have to eat dinner quickly and go very soon
  542. # [18:51] <jgraham> Lachy: OK, don't worry
  543. # [18:51] <jgraham> I guess I can bug zcorpan tommorrow or something
  544. # [18:52] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Labe1.l.pppool.de)
  545. # [18:52] <Philip`> jgraham: Would IE6 in Wine be acceptable?
  546. # [18:53] <jgraham> Philip`: That would be fine
  547. # [18:53] <Philip`> jgraham: If so, it says "log: [object]" and then dies with an "Invalid argument" error on line 15
  548. # [18:54] <jgraham> Oh. Oh well maybe it's no good. I will worry about it some other time
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  551. # [18:57] <Philip`> (For /12 it says true/true/true)
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  560. # [19:31] <taf2> hi I'm working with blob's using slice to send small parts of a file to a server with XHR requests.. I'd like to compute a checksum of the bytes i send, so i can verify on the server the correct bytes were received... the blob interface is great for chunking a file...
  561. # [19:32] <taf2> i can access the file contents using xhr and compute the md5sum... but am wondering if there wasn't some proposal floating around with an alternative
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  587. # [21:28] <Hixie> Philip`: since the records began isn't completely meaningless, because i'm pretty sure the records affected my behaviour.
  588. # [21:29] <Hixie> Lachy: fixed colours. If you can't see the fat line, your system may have incorrectly configured gamma.
  589. # [21:42] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-246.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  590. # [21:48] <gsnedders> Wow. Creating circuit schematics in SVG really is hell.
  591. # [21:49] <takkaria> yeah
  592. # [21:49] <takkaria> not worth it, really
  593. # [21:49] <gsnedders> All the circuit that I just did that made me conclude that had in it was a couple of wires, a LDR, and a Ohmmeter
  594. # [21:49] <gsnedders> *an
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  596. # [21:53] * Parts: peter_12 (n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net)
  597. # [21:53] * Philip` remembers doing circuit diagrams by hand in Design & Technology lessons where the main requirement was to use a ruler to draw straight lines, and then later in Electronics lessons where scribbling in battered old notebooks was considered perfectly normal
  598. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Doing them by hand, even carefully with a ruler, is easier than using SVG.
  599. # [21:55] <roc_> did you write the SVG by hand or use an editor?
  600. # [21:55] <gsnedders> Use an editor. It would probably have been easier by hand.
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  603. # [22:08] * virtuelv recalls using some horrible, proprietary software
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  605. # [22:08] <roc_> ok then I guess the editor sucks!
  606. # [22:09] <virtuelv> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSPICE
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  608. # [22:10] <virtuelv> or was it orcad
  609. # [22:10] <virtuelv> I can't recall, I last did anything with circuits when gsnedders was still wearing diapers
  610. # [22:10] <gsnedders> :P
  611. # [22:11] <virtuelv> gsnedders: it's not your fault I'm an old fart
  612. # [22:11] <gsnedders> virtuelv: It's not my fault I'm a young fart
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  618. # [22:53] <Lachy> Hixie, my macbook pro has whatever the default gamma settings are. I never touched them
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  621. # [22:58] * gsnedders guesses he's probably meant to write this in the impersonal passive
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  624. # [23:32] <Hixie> Lachy: works fine on my own macbook pro :-)
  625. # [23:38] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-87d769b41bc26a5e)
  626. # [23:39] <gsnedders> "until the reading on the ohmmeter was at a minimum" — that sounds slightly clumsy, as if there needs to be another word at the end… suggestions?
  627. # [23:40] <jcranmer> "was"?
  628. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Well, it isn't anymore, is it? :P
  629. # [23:41] * gsnedders points to the draw where the ohmmeter is
  630. # [23:41] <jcranmer> I suppose I need context
  631. # [23:41] <jcranmer> it sounded to me like instructions
  632. # [23:41] <gsnedders> (Actually, I'm really just pointing at the building of my school where physics is, but I'll claim the above)
  633. # [23:41] <jcranmer> are you telling a story, or ... ?
  634. # [23:42] <gsnedders> "When taking a reading, all the LEDs on the array apart from the one whose focal length was being measured were covered with black insulating tape, and then the lens was moved along the optical bench until the reading on the ohmmeter was at a minimum."
  635. # [23:43] * jcranmer shakes his fist at `lens' being a singular noun
  636. # [23:43] <gsnedders> :P
  637. # [23:44] <jcranmer> I see what you mean... it's awkward
  638. # [23:44] <jcranmer> correct, but awkward
  639. # [23:44] * gsnedders really should just care less about his English and just care about the physics part of this :P
  640. # [23:45] <jcranmer> "until the observed resistance was minimized" ?
  641. # [23:45] <Philip`> Local minimum or global minimum?
  642. # [23:46] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Then I risk getting into a -ise v. -ize debate
  643. # [23:46] <jcranmer> minimised, then
  644. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: local
  645. # [23:46] <jcranmer> you're in Britain
  646. # [23:46] <gsnedders> jcranmer: No, it should be -ize
  647. # [23:46] <jcranmer> whatever you prefer
  648. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: Actually, it could be either.
  649. # [23:47] * jcranmer sticks with his American orthography
  650. # [23:47] <Philip`> You could say "...until the reading on the ohmmeter stopped decreasing"
  651. # [23:47] <gsnedders> :P
  652. # [23:47] <gsnedders> That sounds clumsy too, though.
  653. # [23:47] <jcranmer> it sounds too informal
  654. # [23:48] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Words from Greek should end in -ize, those from French -ise
  655. # [23:48] <Philip`> It's more precise than "at a minimum", because it's describing the process imperatively rather than declaratively
  656. # [23:48] <Philip`> though it's only accurate if that's actually how you determined the minimum
  657. # [23:49] <jcranmer> I would put in "was observed to stop decreasing" myself
  658. # [23:49] <gsnedders> "[T]he suffix..., whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Gr[eek] -ιζειν, L[atin] -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling in -iser should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic."
  659. # [23:49] <gsnedders> jcranmer: That sounds more formal
  660. # [23:49] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  661. # [23:50] <jcranmer> formal is better, IMHO
  662. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Yeah
  663. # [23:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why would you expect there to be a reason for English to be as it is?
  664. # [23:50] <gsnedders> I agree Philip`'s sounded too informal
  665. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: Because I'm a bloody scientist? :P
  666. # [23:51] * Philip` thinks readability is a more important consideration than formality
  667. # [23:51] <Philip`> (though it may be that the more formal phrasing is more readable too)
  668. # [23:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: If you flip a coin and it comes up heads, do you expect there to be a reason for it to specifically be heads? These things just happen because *something* has to happen, and there's no particular reason why, but you have to accept what happened and live with it :-)
  669. # [23:57] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@118.71.77.50) (Remote closed the connection)
  670. # Session Close: Thu Feb 19 00:00:01 2009

The end :)