/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 20 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Hixie> html5 has plenty of rules :-)
  4. # [00:02] <Hixie> by which i mean, it would be fine to start writing test suites based on the html5 spec as it stands today
  5. # [00:02] <Hixie> we don't need the spec to be in last call or CR to do that
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  7. # [00:03] <Hixie> (in particular, driving a smaller spec forward isn't going to help make browsers have fewer bugs)
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  9. # [00:05] <sayrer> that doesn't match Acid3
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  11. # [00:06] <sayrer> I think lots of the Acid3 tests are lame, but I have to admit it was effective
  12. # [00:06] * virtuelv reads backlog, and just knows mr. last is going to quote stuff here, possibly with omissions
  13. # [00:06] <olliej> sayrer: are you suggesting that some (eg. svg) tests in acid3 were not flawless? :D
  14. # [00:07] <olliej> sayrer: s/flawless/useful
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  16. # [00:08] <sayrer> olliej, just that they drove competition between us, but they're too far away from IE to raise the baseline in the way that Acid2 did
  17. # [00:08] <sayrer> with the exception of a few that are actually really awful and make experience for our users worse
  18. # [00:08] <olliej> sayrer: oh, i was thinking of the svg tests that only required the methods to not be undefined :D
  19. # [00:09] <sayrer> I didn't know about that one. My least favorite is the XML character encoding one.
  20. # [00:09] <olliej> sayrer: which one was that?
  21. # [00:09] <sayrer> the one that tests whether illegal bytes result in an XML parser halting and catching fire
  22. # [00:10] <sayrer> you guys always did that, we've had our expat hacked up to avoid that for years
  23. # [00:10] <olliej> sayrer: ah, joy :-/
  24. # [00:11] <Hixie> sayrer: nothing stops someone from writing a test suite based on html5 today, as far as i can tell.
  25. # [00:11] <sayrer> though we use our XML parser for feeds directly
  26. # [00:11] <Hixie> sayrer: i don't really understand what acid3 teaches us about the current situation
  27. # [00:11] <sayrer> like IE does
  28. # [00:11] <olliej> sayrer: i disliked the svg tests because most of them did not actually test anything useful -- that said they did get us to look at weaknesses in our svg impl, and make them better
  29. # [00:11] <olliej> sayrer: especially our old SMIL code that was truly awful
  30. # [00:12] <sayrer> yeah, well, SMIL is kinda awful
  31. # [00:12] <olliej> sayrer: but then, the old code did pass despite being buggy and incomplete
  32. # [00:12] <olliej> sayrer: yes
  33. # [00:12] <Hixie> putting the svg stuff in acid3 was such a mistake
  34. # [00:12] <sayrer> so I was upset that it became a priority
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  39. # [00:18] <Hixie> ok time now that i'm done with e-mail and so forth time to take a break.
  40. # [00:19] * gsnedders just ignores email that he marks as "to deal with"
  41. # [00:19] <gsnedders> It works quite well
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  43. # [00:32] <Philip`> http://research.zscaler.com/2009/02/practical-example-of-cssqli-using.html
  44. # [00:32] <Philip`> That talks about "client-side SQL injection", which doesn't appear to be SQL injection at all
  45. # [00:33] <Philip`> It seems to be saying that when you can use XSS to insert arbitrary code into a target page, you can read that origin's data
  46. # [00:33] <Philip`> (which might happen to include an SQL database)
  47. # [00:33] <Philip`> Fortunately the abbreviation "csSQLi" is horribly ugly so hopefully people won't start using that phrase when they're really just talking about XSS
  48. # [00:37] <weinig> Lachy: is calling querySelectorAll() with no parameters supposed to throw an exception?
  49. # [00:39] <gsnedders> I'm smart. I just split water all over myself trying to drink.
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  51. # [00:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: You split water? You could make a pretty good power source by doing that and then burning the hydrogen and oxygen
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  53. # [00:40] <gsnedders> *spilt
  54. # [00:41] <Philip`> The slides on http://research.zscaler.com/2009/02/practical-example-of-cssqli-using.html include one showing how csSQLi attacks are far more effective than normal SQL injection, because it's easier to use and lots of sites are vulnerable
  55. # [00:42] * Joins: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-167-166.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  56. # [00:42] <Philip`> and fails to note that the data stored in client-side databases and the data stored in server-side databases are unlikely to be of equivalent value
  57. # [00:43] * Philip` hates it when his wireless connection dies in the middle of a multi-line utterance and he has to switch to another computer
  58. # [00:44] <gsnedders> Which has the longer wavelength? Violet light or red light?
  59. # [00:44] * gsnedders should know this, but doesn't
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  61. # [00:44] <Philip`> Red
  62. # [00:44] <Philip`> maybe
  63. # [00:44] <Philip`> definitely, hence why galaxies are red-shifted because they're moving away and their wavelengths are being stretched
  64. # [00:45] <Philip`> but I could be wrong
  65. # [00:45] <Dashiva> Philip`: I found it funny how he highlights closing the paragraph tag :)
  66. # [00:45] <jwalden> red is longer, lower energy, closer to radio
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  69. # [00:48] <Philip`> Dashiva: When you do XSS attacks, it's considered highly impolite to make the resulting markup invalid
  70. # [00:48] <Philip`> so he's got to be very careful to get the right </p>s and <p>s
  71. # [00:49] <Philip`> (Actually he doesn't because he could just put the <script>s inside the <p> and it would be no worse)
  72. # [00:50] * gsnedders puts on Rattle & Hum, makes sure he can't see the window in which the DVD is playing, and goes back to work
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  91. # [02:06] * jwalden snickers at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0083.html
  92. # [02:08] <Hixie> i use "infrared" vs "ultraviolet" to remember that red is lower in frequency
  93. # [02:08] <Hixie> infra = less, ultra = more
  94. # [02:09] <gsnedders> And now we have Hixie teaching us Latin :P
  95. # [02:10] <Dashiva> Next we'll be analyzing "super slow"
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  103. # [02:29] * gsnedders wonders how many sig.fig. to give 11.8±14.3 as
  104. # [02:29] <jcranmer> 0
  105. # [02:30] <gsnedders> Yeah, that seems to be the correct answer
  106. # [02:30] <gsnedders> So how do I state that
  107. # [02:30] <gsnedders> *?
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  120. # [03:57] <roc> interesting, Alex Mogilevsky thinks that other browsers will be forced into harsh backwards-compatibility when they have more users
  121. # [03:58] <Dashiva> Does he adjust for IE's lack of updates for many years?
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  123. # [03:58] <slightlyoff> roc: he might not be wrong, but remember his perspective
  124. # [03:58] <slightlyoff> roc: he's also tied to a SUPER slow update mechanism
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  126. # [03:59] <roc> I think rather that they're tied into a SUPER slow update mechanism *because* of their backward compatibility requirements
  127. # [04:00] <roc> if each release is a compatibility mode you promise to support forever, you'd better not do too many releases
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  129. # [04:00] <karlushi> Alex has a point. indeed
  130. # [04:03] <Hixie> roc: part of the problem is also that IE's compliance has been so bad that with each release they've had to break huge amounts of pages
  131. # [04:03] <karlushi> the only way out somehow is an environment with equally distributed market shares, then people use the common set of features. New features taking ages to come into place when all the tiny marketshares have implemented it the same.
  132. # [04:03] <Hixie> roc: whereas most other browsers can add features without anywhere near as much bug fixing breaking things
  133. # [04:03] <roc> Hixie: yes,
  134. # [04:03] <Hixie> roc: (also, they suck at fixing bugs. In IE7 they fixed things people were using for CSS hacks instead of fixing the underlying bugs in many cases, whereas they should have done that the other way around.)
  135. # [04:04] <Hixie> in short, i think alex is wrong :-)
  136. # [04:04] <Hixie> also, hopefully no browser will ever get to >25% market share again
  137. # [04:04] <roc> boy
  138. # [04:04] <roc> that could be a problem for us :-)
  139. # [04:04] <Dashiva> Any browser, or any major version of a browser?
  140. # [04:04] <karlushi> if/when BrowserCool Inc. comes to dominate the market, it will be somehow as bad as IE too, because people will start to develop for specific BrowserCool Inc. features.
  141. # [04:04] <karlushi> BrowserCool Inc. be open source or not
  142. # [04:05] <jcranmer> I'd say that 20-30% is a happy spot for the top browser
  143. # [04:06] <jcranmer> which would imply roughly 3-6 major browsers
  144. # [04:07] <jcranmer> 2 is too few IMHO
  145. # [04:07] <karlushi> jcranmer: indeed
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  148. # [04:11] <karlushi> hmm large market shares… another parameter is paid customers. That might be an issue for Opera in the mobile world. If you fix something which breaks the features developed for paid customers.
  149. # [04:12] <karlushi> s/paid/paying/ ?
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  151. # [04:18] <Hixie> Dashiva: any rendering engine
  152. # [04:27] <roc> since there are only 4 serious rendering engines, keeping them all at exactly 25% is going to be quite a balancing act
  153. # [04:31] <sayrer> Hixie, so it would be bad if Safari and Chrome both reached 13% market share?
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  155. # [04:32] <sayrer> fwiw, I have hard time thinking that would be bad
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  157. # [04:37] <olliej> roc: are you dismissing amaya? :-O
  158. # [04:37] <olliej> ;)
  159. # [04:38] <olliej> sayrer: you'd need to lose a bit to get camino to 13% as well of course :D
  160. # [04:38] <olliej> sayrer: actually what are marketshare numbers for camino?
  161. # [04:38] <roc> hey, I didn't say what I thought the 4 engines were
  162. # [04:39] <sayrer> olliej, I don't think we collect that data
  163. # [04:39] <olliej> roc: well you did sya serious rendering engines, so i guess that precludes ie :D -- and webkit for a few hours after hyatt lands large patches ;)
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  167. # [04:55] <sayrer> http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2009/02/19/google-turns-to-html-5-to-solve-offline-mobile-woes/
  168. # [04:55] <sayrer> just, you know, fyi
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  172. # [05:16] <Hixie> sayrer: yeah, as i keep telling people internally, i hope chrome doesn't get more than 12.5% market share :-)
  173. # [05:16] <jcranmer> judging from my statistics
  174. # [05:16] <jcranmer> it ain't got 2%
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  176. # [05:17] <sayrer> it's impressive that they are statistically significant at this point
  177. # [05:17] <Hixie> getting even that much in a few months is quite impressive imho, yeah
  178. # [05:17] <Hixie> what sayrer said
  179. # [05:17] <Dashiva> It can compete with Opera for being the least popular major browser :)
  180. # [05:18] <sayrer> there may not be enough differentiation to give it a hockey stick, like I hear they want
  181. # [05:18] <sayrer> but there are nice things about the product
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  184. # [05:18] <jcranmer> my statistics, which over-represents IE 6, has 67% IE, 24.5% FF, 4.9% Safari, 1.9% Chrome, 0.7% Unknown, 0.2% Opera, 0.1% SM or other gecko-based
  185. # [05:18] <Hixie> my main problem with chrome is it doesn't work on mac
  186. # [05:18] <Hixie> grrr
  187. # [05:18] <sayrer> I have like 4 Safari skins, dude
  188. # [05:19] <sayrer> ;)
  189. # [05:19] <Hixie> i want the process separation :-)
  190. # [05:19] <jcranmer> if you take out the overrepresentation of IE 6, you get roughly 60% FF
  191. # [05:19] <sayrer> I think you mean the possible process separation
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  193. # [05:19] <sayrer> you never what will happen with lots of tabs open
  194. # [05:19] <sayrer> never know
  195. # [05:20] <Hixie> i notice that you often quibble with the minor details of what i say
  196. # [05:20] <Hixie> for what it's worth unless i'm writing spec text i tend to be quite vague
  197. # [05:20] <sayrer> minor to you
  198. # [05:20] <sayrer> it looks like more of a worldview difference
  199. # [05:20] <Hixie> yes, minor to me
  200. # [05:20] <sayrer> I'm ok with that
  201. # [05:21] <Hixie> i'm fine with worldview differences, i just wish you wouldn't keep saying "no you don't mean that you mean [the same thing just with slightly more precision]"
  202. # [05:21] <jcranmer> I may or may not be indecisive or possibly vague in some things potentially dealing with decisions...
  203. # [05:21] <Hixie> it's tedious and annoying
  204. # [05:21] <sayrer> Hixie, hmm
  205. # [05:21] <sayrer> let me counter with
  206. # [05:21] <sayrer> http://twitter.com/sayrer/status/1224811146
  207. # [05:22] <Hixie> *shrug*
  208. # [05:22] <sayrer> exactly!
  209. # [05:23] <Dashiva> Keep work and play separate now
  210. # [05:23] <Hixie> sayrer: i don't understand what you want from me
  211. # [05:23] <Hixie> sayrer: re that tweet
  212. # [05:24] <Hixie> sayrer: i try my ass off to help you, and all i get from you is grief
  213. # [05:25] <sayrer> Hixie, I think it is fair to say that I have complained too much without doing enough work. I plan to change that.
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  216. # [05:25] <sayrer> Hixie, that tweet was about overuse of the socratic method in whatwg discussions
  217. # [05:25] <Hixie> i don't mind constructive complaints, in fact i welcome them whole heartedly
  218. # [05:25] <Hixie> i would go as far as to say i thrive on them
  219. # [05:25] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  220. # [05:26] <Hixie> my problem is with just pointing at things and saying they're wrong and not offering any alternatives -- like, what should we do instead of asking for people's goals? guess what they are?
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  222. # [05:26] <sayrer> I don't think we agree on some substantive issues. It's not fair for me to expect you to do things my way. I have to do work if I want things done my way.
  223. # [05:27] <jcranmer> Hixie: obviously it's your job to fix stuff, everyone else is merely just pointing out problems
  224. # [05:27] <Hixie> sayrer: not agreeing is fine, but instead of just saying you don't agree, can you say why you don't agree when you don't agree?
  225. # [05:27] * jcranmer notices that many people get very quiet when asked about alternatives
  226. # [05:28] <sayrer> re: "pointing at things and saying they're wrong and not offering any alternatives" - that's exactly right
  227. # [05:28] <sayrer> but I think the discussion of alternatives is lacking concrete examples
  228. # [05:28] <sayrer> you have a concrete example
  229. # [05:28] <Hixie> well your tweet for example
  230. # [05:28] <Hixie> what should we do instead of asking people what their goals are?
  231. # [05:28] <Hixie> how can we evaluate proposals without knowing goals?
  232. # [05:29] <sayrer> Hixie, that was actually written before any of our most recent discussion
  233. # [05:29] <sayrer> the pattern is "oh, you want to do something like HTML 4.1, well OBVIOUSLY you need a rendering section"
  234. # [05:30] <sayrer> but I obviously included a crystal clear indication that I removed the Rendering section
  235. # [05:30] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-43-109.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  236. # [05:30] <sayrer> it's right there in the list of things I edited
  237. # [05:31] <Hixie> well in the case of the rendering section, the actual line of argumentation was "i want something for implementors that is 4.0 + canvas" (or some such), which led to the response saying that rendering would be necessary
  238. # [05:31] <Hixie> which seems correct
  239. # [05:31] <Hixie> but that goes back to why i ask for goals
  240. # [05:32] <Hixie> without knowing your goals, how can i know if the rendering section should be in or not?
  241. # [05:32] <sayrer> that's my point -- necessary and correct are the areas we are disagreeing on
  242. # [05:32] <sayrer> not even in direction, just magnitude
  243. # [05:32] <Hixie> if the goal is to provide implementors with an implementation guide, how is rendering not required? isn't that part of what implementors do?
  244. # [05:33] <sayrer> the Rendering section is non-normative
  245. # [05:33] <sayrer> what does it matte
  246. # [05:33] <sayrer> matter
  247. # [05:33] <Hixie> it's non-normative with the understanding that visual browsers are expected to follow it
  248. # [05:33] <sayrer> that doesn't sound like non-normative over here at Mozilla
  249. # [05:34] <Hixie> it's pretty normative for mozilla, apple, google, microsoft, and opera, yeah
  250. # [05:34] <Hixie> at least insofar as interop is desired
  251. # [05:34] <Hixie> (one could imagine that, e.g., minimo might not want to do the rendering the same way as desktop gecko)
  252. # [05:35] <Hixie> (which is why it's not actually normative)
  253. # [05:35] <sayrer> I hope there are always interop problems, I just hope they are always new ones
  254. # [05:35] <Hixie> well there will continue to be old ones if we don't include the rendering section in the spec the browser vendors implement :-)
  255. # [05:36] <sayrer> I am not against the Rendering section
  256. # [05:37] <sayrer> I don't want you to delete it from your document, for example
  257. # [05:38] <Hixie> you seem to be arguing against my arguing that if browser vendors are the target audience, there should be a rendering section
  258. # [05:38] * Quits: doublec_ (n=chris@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
  259. # [05:38] <sayrer> No, it's just a timing issue
  260. # [05:38] <sayrer> there should be a rendering section
  261. # [05:39] <Hixie> i don't understand what is a timing issue. could you elaborate?
  262. # [05:40] <sayrer> I don't think it needs to be in the document I am working on. A new document that obsoletes mine should appear before we hope to get interoperation on that section.
  263. # [05:41] <Hixie> in what way does this apply to the rendering section (which is mostly already implemented) but not the parser (which has zero shipping implementations)?
  264. # [05:41] <Hixie> (the rendering section is far closer to reality than the parser)
  265. # [05:42] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  266. # [05:42] <sayrer> the existence of reset.css files make the rendering section not that important, aiui
  267. # [05:42] <Hixie> that seems to be a very different argument.
  268. # [05:43] <sayrer> ok
  269. # [05:43] <Hixie> reset.css only covers a small fraction of the rendering section; it doesn't cover, e.g., all the processing of legacy presentational attributes, etc
  270. # [05:43] * Parts: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-14bf9622e0ef9d9d)
  271. # [05:43] <sayrer> oh, that's true
  272. # [05:44] <Hixie> i still don't understand how my line of argumentation for including the rendering section is incorrect, given the above
  273. # [05:44] <sayrer> do you think anyone will change their rendering of legacy presentational attributes in the timeframe I am shooting for?
  274. # [05:45] <Hixie> what timeframe are you shooting for?
  275. # [05:45] <sayrer> something close to the charter as written today (haha, I know)
  276. # [05:45] <Hixie> (and more importantly, i don't understand how this line of argumentation is wrong even at the metalevel. Why is it wrong for me to ask what your goals are, what the timeframe is, etc? you seemed to indicate in your very public twitter that somehow this is a fundamentally incorrect approach.)
  277. # [05:46] <sayrer> the questions aren't wrong
  278. # [05:46] <sayrer> the replies to the answers are wrong
  279. # [05:46] <Hixie> how so?
  280. # [05:47] <Hixie> re the timeframe, i don't see any way that we can get a complete test suite for anything remotely the size of what you are proposing within 15 months, so i don't see any way to achieve that timetable.
  281. # [05:47] <Hixie> in fact, i don't think it would be realistic to expect HTML_4_ to reach the REC point on that timetable on that same timeframe
  282. # [05:48] <Hixie> let alone anything with the level of detail and interop aims of HTML5
  283. # [05:48] <sayrer> because they level requirements that the answer does not necessarily imply. your assertion that leaving some things as they are in HTML4 makes a spec "pointless" is a good example.
  284. # [05:48] <Hixie> i am certainly open to contradiction, if you have an argument that shows i'm wrong to say that
  285. # [05:49] <sayrer> what if I make a @name conforming with no clarification
  286. # [05:49] <sayrer> <a name>, to be clear
  287. # [05:49] <Hixie> conforming for authors?
  288. # [05:50] <sayrer> for everyone
  289. # [05:50] <Hixie> i don't understand
  290. # [05:50] <Hixie> how is <a name> not already detailed in HTML5?
  291. # [05:50] <sayrer> it is, it's just non-conforming for authors, right?
  292. # [05:50] <Hixie> right
  293. # [05:51] <Hixie> (this is just what XHTML 1.1 changed, HTML5 doesn't do anything new here)
  294. # [05:51] <sayrer> XHTML does not constitute a valid precedent for me
  295. # [05:52] <Hixie> i'm not claiming it to be a valid precedent, just saying that that's where the rule came from
  296. # [05:52] <sayrer> ok
  297. # [05:52] <sayrer> so, if I make it conforming for authors, with no real justification other than not changing HTML4, is that a pointless spec?
  298. # [05:52] <gavin_> Hixie: do you think it is possible for a spec that is incomplete in your eyes to also be useful?
  299. # [05:53] <Hixie> sayrer: authoring criteria are orthogonal to what i'm talking about when i talk about things being vague and undefined.
  300. # [05:53] <Hixie> sayrer: specifically, it's the implementation conformance criteria that i'm worried about if the goal is to have a spec for implementors.
  301. # [05:54] * Joins: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-167-166.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  302. # [05:54] <gavin_> seems to me that your disagreement with sayrer stems from the implication that you don't
  303. # [05:54] <Hixie> gavin_: yes, an incomplete spec can be helpful, if it's is a work in progress and will become a complete spec before it is finished
  304. # [05:54] <Hixie> gavin_: however a spec like HTML4, which leaves massive things undefined, is actually more harmful than helpful on the long run.
  305. # [05:55] <gavin_> don't you think there is a broad spectrum between "html4" and "html5"?
  306. # [05:55] <gavin_> you seem to think there can be no middle ground
  307. # [05:56] <Hixie> gavin_: yes, html5 has covered much of that spectrum as it develops. But for any particular feature, leaving things undefined is worse than not having them at all.
  308. # [05:56] <Hixie> gavin_: so while the spec is a work in progress it's fine to be, well, a work in progress. But when it's called finished, if it has incomplete parts, IMHO that's just going to be harmful.
  309. # [05:56] <gavin_> I don't think sayrer is planning on "leaving things undefined"
  310. # [05:56] <gavin_> he is just omitting them
  311. # [05:56] <Hixie> omitting _features_ is fine
  312. # [05:57] <gavin_> i.e. "not having them at all"
  313. # [05:57] <Hixie> sure
  314. # [05:57] <Hixie> but removing the rendering section, for example, isn't removing a feature
  315. # [05:57] <Hixie> it would be like removing security, or removing performance
  316. # [05:57] <Hixie> it's not a feature
  317. # [05:57] <Hixie> it's an intrinsic part of features
  318. # [05:58] <gavin_> I'm not sure I agree that a spec absolutely must define everything to be beneficial rather than harmful
  319. # [05:58] <Hixie> what would you consider ok to leave undefined?
  320. # [05:59] <sayrer> you're changing the subject
  321. # [06:00] <Hixie> what was the subject?
  322. # [06:00] <sayrer> the better question is "what must be defined in order to help the Web"
  323. # [06:00] <Hixie> that is certainly another question, i don't know if it's better or worse
  324. # [06:00] <Hixie> i'm not really sure how to answer that question
  325. # [06:01] <Hixie> "everything" seems like an easy, yet likely inaccurate, answer
  326. # [06:02] <Hixie> i think the original question about goals is still one that hasn't been answered properly, though; in particular your comment regarding timelines has returned me to a state of confusion
  327. # [06:03] <gavin_> I think the current HTML5 spec, with the rendering section omitted, is a useful document
  328. # [06:03] <Hixie> sayrer: are you really looking to publish something that has two complete implementations in 15 months along with a test suite to prove it?
  329. # [06:03] <sayrer> I think you mean you don't understand the answer to the goals question
  330. # [06:03] <sayrer> the answer is proper, from where I sit
  331. # [06:03] <Hixie> ok, i don't understand the question (didn't i just say telling me i meant something else was annoying to me?)
  332. # [06:03] <Hixie> er
  333. # [06:03] <Hixie> don't understand the answer
  334. # [06:04] <Hixie> gavin_: i think it's useful, yes, but i think it would be harmful to publish a spec as a REC without it
  335. # [06:04] <sayrer> yes, but I also said deeming what is proper/required/implied is annoying
  336. # [06:04] <Hixie> so i stopped doing that
  337. # [06:04] <sayrer> almost!
  338. # [06:05] <Hixie> seriously though, are you really looking to publish something that has two complete implementations in 15 months along with a test suite to prove it?
  339. # [06:05] <sayrer> it looks tough
  340. # [06:05] <Hixie> it looks like it would involve a lot of test writing in your near future :-)
  341. # [06:06] <sayrer> but I'm willing to keep cutting and write tests, too
  342. # [06:06] <Hixie> the problem is there's only so much you can cut
  343. # [06:06] <gavin_> Hixie: I'm not convinced that that is true
  344. # [06:06] <Hixie> e.g. if you cut the parser, you can't test anything anymore
  345. # [06:07] <sayrer> you're right that there is a point where fat turns to bone
  346. # [06:08] <Hixie> i think you would hit that point long before finding a completely interoperable subset
  347. # [06:09] <sayrer> I agree, that doesn't bother me until 15 months from now
  348. # [06:10] <Hixie> ah, i had assumed that you were attempting an achievable goal :-)
  349. # [06:10] <Hixie> if your goal is something that can't be done, then i guess i don't really have any really useful feedback
  350. # [06:10] <sayrer> same to you, buddy. Sam warned you already.
  351. # [06:11] <Hixie> i think we can get two completely interoperable implementations by 2022
  352. # [06:11] <Hixie> along with a test suite
  353. # [06:11] <sayrer> cool
  354. # [06:11] <Hixie> hopefully i can take a sabbatical after that, too
  355. # [06:11] <sayrer> but those are not the only ingredients you need
  356. # [06:11] <Hixie> oh?
  357. # [06:12] <Hixie> what else do we need
  358. # [06:12] <sayrer> unless you move somewhere outside the w3c
  359. # [06:12] <Hixie> we started outside the w3c
  360. # [06:12] <sayrer> ok
  361. # [06:12] <Hixie> it's not clear to me the w3c will still exist in 2022
  362. # [06:12] <Hixie> they're in enough financial trouble as it is
  363. # [06:12] <sayrer> fair point
  364. # [06:13] <Hixie> having said that, that doesn't mean that i don't value getting w3c working group consensus
  365. # [06:13] <Hixie> but i think that's achievable too
  366. # [06:13] <sayrer> interesting
  367. # [06:14] <sayrer> achievable despite what the chair tells you?
  368. # [06:14] <sayrer> because i had assumed that you were attempting an achievable goal
  369. # [06:14] * weinig|awayzers is now known as weinig
  370. # [06:14] <Hixie> i think sam has a distorted view of what the bulk of the working group agrees to
  371. # [06:15] <Hixie> the few votes we've had have had just as much noise before them, yet in all cases so far they passed with overwhelming support
  372. # [06:15] * Quits: karlushi (n=karl@modemcable140.128-20-96.mc.videotron.ca) ("O public road, I say back I am not afraid to leave you, yet I love you, you express me better than I can express myself.")
  373. # [06:16] <sayrer> a pyrrhic victory is one possible outcome
  374. # [06:16] <Hixie> i don't think 95% support is pyrrhic
  375. # [06:16] <Hixie> any group with three hundred people will always have some vocal disagreement
  376. # [06:16] <Hixie> whatever the topic
  377. # [06:17] <sayrer> I give your vote more weight than mine, for example
  378. # [06:17] <Hixie> i would likely abstain from most votes of this nature
  379. # [06:17] <Hixie> as i have in the past
  380. # [06:17] <sayrer> hypothetically speaking
  381. # [06:17] <sayrer> I don't believe I've voted either
  382. # [06:17] <Hixie> but i mean, if you assume that 1% of all people will disagree with anything, which is probably pretty accurate, then 300 people means 3 formal objections for any proposal
  383. # [06:17] <Hixie> and we've had fewer than that in the past
  384. # [06:18] <sayrer> consensus is not voting, and it's not unanimity
  385. # [06:18] <Hixie> sure
  386. # [06:18] <Hixie> i do hope to find out how sam intends to establish consensus in a group of mostly quiet observers
  387. # [06:18] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@61.88.219.66)
  388. # [06:18] <sayrer> would I want to win a vote over the objections of WebKit? no. even if it were 300 to 3.
  389. # [06:18] <Hixie> (it isn't clear to me how to do that)
  390. # [06:19] <sayrer> well, there are two ways of getting consensus. the IETF uses both, at different phases
  391. # [06:20] <sayrer> one is "no objections"
  392. # [06:20] <sayrer> and the other is "we need positive support for this to move forward"
  393. # [06:21] <sayrer> silence is dissent, or silence is assent
  394. # [06:23] <Hixie> well the thing is we'll never have no objections, and we'll always have enough support to bring anything forward, basically
  395. # [06:23] <Hixie> neither really works with groups this size
  396. # [06:24] <Hixie> i agree that there are certain groups -- implementors in particular -- who get veto votes
  397. # [06:24] <sayrer> you don't have support to bring your document forward
  398. # [06:24] <sayrer> so there are at least some edge cases
  399. # [06:24] <Hixie> (but i'm taking care of that long before we get to a consensus check)
  400. # [06:24] <Hixie> oh, i disagree
  401. # [06:24] <Hixie> well
  402. # [06:24] <sayrer> interesting
  403. # [06:24] <Hixie> the document isn't finished
  404. # [06:24] <Hixie> but notwithstanding that issue, i think i could find plenty of people to support publication
  405. # [06:25] <sayrer> that covers one type of consensus
  406. # [06:25] * Quits: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-167-166.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.20/2008121709]")
  407. # [06:25] <Hixie> the problem is with a group this size it becomes more a matter of canvassing and PR than about technical quality
  408. # [06:26] <Hixie> like i said, we'll never have no objections
  409. # [06:26] <Hixie> for anything
  410. # [06:26] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  411. # [06:26] <Hixie> or at least, anything of any importance
  412. # [06:26] <sayrer> I think HTML5 already suffers from that problem (canvassing and PR)
  413. # [06:26] <Hixie> in the working group?
  414. # [06:26] <Hixie> or externally
  415. # [06:26] <sayrer> both
  416. # [06:27] <sayrer> but that's changing the subject
  417. # [06:27] <Hixie> externally, not much we can do about it. i think it's ridiculous, but it all rather started with the press release when the first draft was released, which i objected to but that, as you say, is another story
  418. # [06:27] <sayrer> I think you need cooperation that you don't have to get a good result
  419. # [06:27] <Hixie> internally, i'm not sure i see it, but i might just be ignoring it
  420. # [06:28] <Hixie> in what sense?
  421. # [06:28] <Hixie> as far as i can tell we have the cooperation of dozens of people from many vendors
  422. # [06:28] <Hixie> i mean just look at the quality of the feedback
  423. # [06:28] <Hixie> especially on the whatwg list
  424. # [06:29] <sayrer> I don't read the whatwg list regularly anymore. The feedback looks good, I agree, but you don't have a good percentage weighted against browser market share.
  425. # [06:29] <Hixie> I agree that Microsoft's involvement is lacking
  426. # [06:29] <Hixie> not sure what to do about that
  427. # [06:29] <sayrer> so is Mozilla's
  428. # [06:30] <Hixie> oh no, mozilla people are heavily involved
  429. # [06:30] <sayrer> somewhat involved
  430. # [06:30] <Hixie> roc, sicking, doublec, and hsivonen are all giving regular feedback on their various parts
  431. # [06:30] <sayrer> yep
  432. # [06:30] <Hixie> and i'm sure i've just insulted people by omission :-)
  433. # [06:30] <Dashiva> Poor Boris
  434. # [06:31] <Hixie> bz, too, yeah
  435. # [06:31] <sayrer> so, 5 people
  436. # [06:31] * jwalden feigns mock outrage
  437. # [06:31] <Hixie> jwalden too
  438. # [06:31] <jwalden> barely
  439. # [06:31] <jwalden> I took six months off :-)
  440. # [06:31] <sayrer> but I don't think any of them have authored large bits of your doc
  441. # [06:31] <jwalden> is that really a problem?
  442. # [06:31] <Hixie> and aaronl before his life changed recently
  443. # [06:32] <jwalden> I don't think it's a problem if we're not writing, so long as we're feedbacking :-)
  444. # [06:32] <Hixie> nobody except me has authored large bits of html5
  445. # [06:32] <Hixie> i've written every word
  446. # [06:32] <sayrer> words yes, ideas no
  447. # [06:32] <Hixie> certainly not ideas, no
  448. # [06:32] <Hixie> many ideas come from the mozilla world
  449. # [06:32] <Hixie> certainly more are always welcome
  450. # [06:33] <sayrer> this isn't really going anywhere. main point: Apple, Google, Opera are overrepresented, Mozilla in the middle, IE underreperesented.
  451. # [06:33] <Hixie> well i'm certainly always happy to get more involvement from mozilla and microsoft
  452. # [06:33] <sayrer> not sure that is something to be fixed
  453. # [06:34] <Hixie> i'm hardly going to turn other people away though :-)
  454. # [06:34] <sayrer> but the fact remains
  455. # [06:34] <sayrer> that is actually a point of disagreement
  456. # [06:34] <sayrer> you should have told Apple and Google to go write a SQL spec
  457. # [06:34] <Hixie> and told mozilal to go write a registerProtocolHandler spec?
  458. # [06:34] <Hixie> mozilla
  459. # [06:34] <sayrer> sure
  460. # [06:35] <Hixie> i don't see why
  461. # [06:35] <sayrer> but maybe that boomerang comes back with you writing the SQL spec
  462. # [06:35] <sayrer> separately
  463. # [06:35] <sayrer> I get that
  464. # [06:35] <Hixie> i guess i should also have told mozilla to do the localstorage api elsewhere
  465. # [06:35] <sayrer> yep
  466. # [06:35] <Hixie> but at the end of the day, that would just have meant that none of those sections would exist
  467. # [06:36] <Hixie> it's not like there are editors out there waiting for things to do
  468. # [06:36] <Hixie> i've been asking for people to take these bits out of html5 for months, in some cases years
  469. # [06:36] <sayrer> I dunno, there are lots of things specified for Gears that aren't in any official spec
  470. # [06:36] <sayrer> they still exists, as far as I can see
  471. # [06:37] <Hixie> unfortunately for me, i don't control google's allocation of resources
  472. # [06:37] <sayrer> and I have been asking you to take these things out of HTML5 for months, if not years
  473. # [06:37] <sayrer> stalemate is over
  474. # [06:37] <sayrer> I took them out
  475. # [06:37] <Hixie> taking them out is only half the problem, they still have to be somewhere
  476. # [06:38] <Hixie> (and it's the trivial half of the problem)
  477. # [06:38] <sayrer> maybe. maybe they are sucky features
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  480. # [06:38] <sayrer> I don't pretend to know which are which
  481. # [06:41] <Hixie> anyway
  482. # [06:41] <sayrer> most importantly, please proceed with your document
  483. # [06:41] <sayrer> I don't agree with everything, but I am not in the stop energy business
  484. # [06:41] <Hixie> localStorage and Database will be removed before last call, so they're not relevant to the consensus issue in the htmlwg
  485. # [06:42] <Hixie> well i'm glad to hear it
  486. # [06:43] <Hixie> it doesn't always feel like that's the case :-)
  487. # [06:43] <sayrer> it hasn't always been
  488. # [06:43] <sayrer> and I was wrong to behave that way
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  490. # [06:44] <Hixie> woah, it got late
  491. # [06:44] <Hixie> i gotta go
  492. # [06:44] <Hixie> bbl
  493. # [06:44] <sayrer> k, later
  494. # [06:44] <Hixie> good talking to you though
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  513. # [08:18] <hsivonen> http://intertwingly.net/stats/internalsearches.html given me the YSoD
  514. # [08:18] <hsivonen> s/given/gives/
  515. # [08:18] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@61.88.219.66) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  516. # [08:18] <hsivonen> Philip` been searching?
  517. # [08:19] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@61.88.219.66) ("bye")
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  524. # [09:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: Yes, I think that was me :-(
  525. # [09:30] <Philip`> (I didn't intend to break the internalsearches page, since I didn't even known it existed until after I'd been trying to break the search results page)
  526. # [09:31] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  527. # [09:48] <Philip`> "I think it is fair to say that I have complained too much without doing enough work. I plan to change that." - I wish the HTML WG had more of that attitude :-)
  528. # [09:48] <Philip`> Well, more of the second sentence of that
  529. # [09:53] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.34) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  532. # [10:07] <jwalden> cleverly done, regardless :-)
  533. # [10:09] <Philip`> You don't need to be at all clever to break XML, you just have to shove U+FFFE into every text box and query string you can find
  534. # [10:09] <Philip`> It's like XSS, where you just have to shove < and " and ' into everywhere, but it's even easier because you get immediate feedback on success
  535. # [10:13] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@59.90.71.35) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  539. # [10:22] <jwalden> perhaps
  540. # [10:22] <jwalden> maybe it's a small victory given text-processing standards being as they are
  541. # [10:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: Don't use gnuplot
  542. # [10:23] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  543. # [10:25] * Philip` wonders how something like XOM (as opposed to appending strings and passing them to 'print') would solve the problem of the internalsearches page being broken by characters that are (presumably) scraped from an Apache log file
  544. # [10:26] <Philip`> I assume you'd just get a server-side error message instead of a client-side error message, which isn't much of an improvement
  545. # [10:26] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-106-241-178.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  546. # [10:28] * Quits: svl (n=me@195-252-32-21-no65.business.telia.com) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  549. # [10:35] <annevk> so did the former Youtube guy just say Chrome is implementing <video>?
  550. # [10:35] <annevk> sounds nice
  551. # [10:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: at least you could drop stuff on a per-entry basis by catching XOM exceptions very near the point where they are thrown
  552. # [10:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: as opposed to letting them propagate far enough to crash your server app
  553. # [10:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hmm, I suppose that could work
  554. # [10:41] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  555. # [10:41] <Philip`> Oh no, <canvas> spec changes, now my test scripts will be outdated and broken :-(
  556. # [10:45] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
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  559. # [10:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: Sorry Master. What should I use instead Master?
  560. # [10:53] <olliej> annevk: well given webkit already supports <video> and chrome had disabled it i refuse to believe it would be significant work for them
  561. # [10:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: Almost anything. Veusz is pretty nice
  562. # [10:54] <jgraham> disclaimer: Veusz was written by a postdoc I worked with and I have contributed a little
  563. # [10:54] <olliej> annevk: the gtk people got <video> running with gstreamer in just a few days once we'd got it all implemented
  564. # [10:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: So it's probably buggy?
  565. # [10:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: At least I know the wavelengths of ligt
  566. # [10:55] <jgraham> *light
  567. # [10:55] * Quits: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  569. # [10:56] * olliej waits for chrome to nonetheless talk about how awesome they are for implementing a stunning new spec that was already implemented more than a year ago in the engine they use for their browser
  570. # [10:56] <annevk> olliej, interesting
  571. # [10:56] <olliej> annevk: safari3.1 shipped with video in march last year, we had the basics implemented at the end of the previous year iirc
  572. # [10:57] * Philip` had <video> with rotations and reflections in WebKitGTK embedded in an OpenGL application, and it even mixed the audio with the applicaton's OpenAL stuff properly, which was quite impressive
  573. # [10:57] <olliej> annevk: it's reasons like that i get irritated by the quantity of standards chrome explicitly disabled in webkit
  574. # [10:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: https://gna.org/projects/veusz/
  575. # [10:59] * Joins: svl (n=me@137.139.241.83.in-addr.dgcsystems.net)
  576. # [11:00] <hsivonen_> Am I still connected?
  577. # [11:00] <jgraham> hsivonen_: You seem to be
  578. # [11:00] <hsivonen_> yes, but with wrong nick
  579. # [11:00] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
  580. # [11:01] <Lachy> What is Rob's draft that rubys is referring to at the end of this? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0085.html (I hope he's not referring to that stuff Rob Burns produced on the HTML4all wiki)
  581. # [11:01] <annevk> from Rob Sayre
  582. # [11:02] <hsivonen> Lachy: http://people.mozilla.com/~sayrer/2009/02/15/html5.html
  583. # [11:02] <gsnedders> There's no TOC :(
  584. # [11:02] * gsnedders pimps that spec
  585. # [11:02] <hsivonen> Lachy: context at http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/0c2bbb6ed726800b
  586. # [11:04] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-246.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  587. # [11:08] <Lachy> I don't understand the point of it. From the description sayrer gave, it seems to include only features that already existed in HTML4, making it little more than just a redefinition of HTML4 in better terms. But what's the point of having that?!
  588. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Lachy: also <canvas>
  589. # [11:09] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-40.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  590. # [11:11] <jgraham> AFAICT the point seems to be that sayrer wants to get a W3C approved document out that has detailed implementation requirements compared to HTML4 for the same (roughly) featureset in the belief that this will cause implementors to prioritise those features (e.g. the new parser) above features in the HTML 5 draft
  591. # [11:12] <jgraham> This seems to me to be a misunderstanding of the way that browser vendors set their priorities
  592. # [11:13] <jgraham> I guess he might be particularly interested in the case of MS who have been known to use "only a draft" as an excuse before for e.g. CSS 2.1
  593. # [11:16] <annevk> I suppose it might be useful
  594. # [11:16] <Philip`> And when MS implements bits of the HTML5 draft, the draft then changes underneath them and their implementation is no longer correct
  595. # [11:16] <annevk> if it actually works out in the time frame he wants to
  596. # [11:16] <Philip`> so they can't win :-)
  597. # [11:18] <jgraham> Philip`: That is a fundamental problem of implementing standards. Someone has to move first. (Well the other opion is to have a reference implementation I guess but good luck with that on HTML5)
  598. # [11:18] <Hixie> man, the summary="" discussion is actually getting real data now
  599. # [11:18] <Hixie> from the "keep it" camp
  600. # [11:18] <Hixie> i'm impressed
  601. # [11:19] <Hixie> there's actually reason to reopen the discussion now
  602. # [11:19] <Lachy> I don't see it as useful at all. Sayrer's draft can't reach REC before HTML5 does because if it does, then it won't reflect any subsequent changes in HTML5
  603. # [11:20] <Lachy> so at best, it can be published in sync with HTML5, but in that case, it's nothing but HTML5 with sections defining most new features hidden
  604. # [11:20] <Philip`> Lachy: Why would it have to reflect any subsequent changes in HTML5?
  605. # [11:20] <Lachy> because then we'd have 2 normative documents defining HTML5 with conflicting requirements
  606. # [11:21] <jgraham> In principle it can define HTML4.5 or whatever
  607. # [11:21] <Philip`> Just change its name to "HTML4.1" and then it won't be a problem
  608. # [11:21] <jgraham> There is a problem is the parser algorithms don't remain exactly in sync for example
  609. # [11:21] <Lachy> but the whole idea of doing that is just pointless
  610. # [11:21] <Philip`> (or at least no more of a problem than having HTML4 and HTML5 both normative with conflicting requirements)
  611. # [11:22] <Hixie> i think it'd be pretty cool to have a 4.1 that was in between 4 and 5 (4's features with 5's detail)
  612. # [11:22] <annevk> yup
  613. # [11:22] <Lachy> but why?
  614. # [11:22] <Lachy> what difference does it make?
  615. # [11:23] <Philip`> Lachy: It seems there's a point in getting a complete stable tested implemented version of HTML4 even if it doesn't have all the features that HTML5 adds, because it'll make the platform core more solid
  616. # [11:23] <Philip`> s/HTML4/HTML/
  617. # [11:23] <Hixie> Lachy: oh it would be purely a PR stunt, i don't think it would affect implementations at all
  618. # [11:23] <annevk> if he can manage to take it to REC in <2 years as he proposes I think that would be very cool
  619. # [11:24] <Lachy> so just look at the requirments in HTML5 to implement the stuff that was included in HTML4. At most, that requires a stylesheet to hide the sections of the new features. Not a new potentially conflicting spec
  620. # [11:24] <Lachy> well, I'm opposed to doing stupid PR stunts
  621. # [11:24] <Philip`> What about clever PR stunts? ;-)
  622. # [11:24] <Hixie> i don't think it would get to REC and earlier than HTML5
  623. # [11:24] <Lachy> Philip`, sure. But this clearly isn't one
  624. # [11:26] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  625. # [11:47] * gsnedders gets annoyed at Hixie using "several messages" as a subject line
  626. # [11:47] <gsnedders> It isn't overly useful to say what it's about
  627. # [11:47] <gsnedders> several messages about what?
  628. # [11:47] <gsnedders> meh.
  629. # [11:47] <gsnedders> /rant
  630. # [11:47] <Hixie> pine automatically sets it to that when i reply to multiple messages that have differnet subject liens
  631. # [11:47] <gsnedders> pine--
  632. # [11:47] <Hixie> i usually fix it, occasionally i don't notice that teh thread changes subject line
  633. # [11:48] <Hixie> the real -- in my book is for the user agents that keep screwing up the subject lines
  634. # [11:49] * Quits: svl (n=me@137.139.241.83.in-addr.dgcsystems.net) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  635. # [11:50] <Lachy> wtf? I thought we had pointless discussions on public-html. But now I've seen the 'Why "color"?' thread on www-style!
  636. # [11:50] <annevk> what is the use case for videoHeight/videoWidth btw? why doesn't it apply to <img>?
  637. # [11:51] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  638. # [11:52] * gsnedders dares to look at the thread he's heard so much about on www-style
  639. # [11:52] <gsnedders> (I haven't looked at it since the Armenian reference)
  640. # [11:53] <annevk> since then there was a klingon reference
  641. # [11:53] <hsivonen> I'm glad tantek called the troll. I wish something were done about the trolling on public-html, too.
  642. # [11:54] <gsnedders> annevk: Yeah, I've seen that now
  643. # [11:54] <annevk> and a certain Philip TAYLOR was seriously upset that glazou did not want localized property names
  644. # [11:54] <annevk> stuff like that cracks me up
  645. # [11:54] <Philip`> (Not me!)
  646. # [11:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: Lies.
  647. # [11:55] <hsivonen> annevk: it's not funny when you've seen similar things proposed seriously for XML vocabularies
  648. # [11:56] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.34)
  649. # [11:56] <annevk> it's the reason for XML 1.1
  650. # [11:56] <hsivonen> not precisely, but close
  651. # [11:56] <annevk> and supposedly XML 1.0 5th
  652. # [11:57] <Philip`> I'm not sure Bjoern Hoehrmann's reference to Lingua::Romana::Perligata is an entirely great example of language localisation that is not an utter waste of time
  653. # [11:57] <gsnedders> Philip`: No spoilers, man!
  654. # [11:58] <Philip`> (Well, it's not a waste of time to the extent that it looks like a pretty clever hack, but it's not exactly intended for practical usage)
  655. # [12:00] <Philip`> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html - "inserto stringum tum unum tum duo excerpementum da. # $insert = substr($string,1,2);"
  656. # [12:00] <Philip`> "You tum entered inquementum tum wordum tum novumversum oraculo scribe." - that's not real Latin :-(
  657. # [12:02] * Philip` notes that the same author wrote the Quantum::Superpositions module, which allows Perl variables to store a superposition of values
  658. # [12:04] * gsnedders notes Perl is crazy anyway
  659. # [12:04] <Philip`> Yes, but not usually *that* crazy
  660. # [12:06] <jgraham> Hmm. How does it work? It just allows variables to hold multiple values and return one at random? Or something more clever?
  661. # [12:09] <Philip`> A variable can hold multiple values, and can be combined with other variables (e.g. any(1,2,3) + any(10,20) == any(11,12,13,21,22,23))
  662. # [12:09] <Philip`> and any(1,2,3) < 2 is true, but all(1,2,3) < 2 is false
  663. # [12:10] <Philip`> and if you convert a superposition to a scalar number then it picks one eigenstate at random
  664. # [12:10] <jgraham> Yeah, I just looked at the docs. It doesn't seem too clever but I could be missing something
  665. # [12:11] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  666. # [12:11] <Philip`> It's actually kind of a useful feature, and not very quantumy
  667. # [12:11] <Philip`> I think Perl 6 has the any/all thing
  668. # [12:11] <Philip`> (though not the random selection)
  669. # [12:12] <Philip`> The Quantum::Entanglement module is much more quantumy, since it does complex probabilities and all that fun stuff
  670. # [12:12] <jgraham> It don't say it wasn't _useful_ just not that _clever_
  671. # [12:15] <Philip`> jgraham: I wasn't disagreeing with you, just commenting that it seems to be erring on the left of the usefulness vs cleverness tradeoff scale :-)
  672. # [12:15] <Philip`> whereas Quantum::Entanglement is distinctly less useful
  673. # [12:17] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  674. # [12:20] <gsnedders> I think the problem here is you want code to be useful
  675. # [12:22] <Philip`> I don't believe I ever made such a claim
  676. # [12:30] * Quits: dalmaer (n=dalmaer@24.114.224.34)
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  678. # [12:59] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.22.229)
  679. # [13:13] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  680. # [13:18] <rubys> Philip`, hsivonen, YSOD fixed. Look at last line of http://intertwingly.net/stats/internalsearches.html
  681. # [13:37] <hsivonen> rubys: cool
  682. # [13:49] <hsivonen> aargh. Mail.app ate my today's posts to the RDFa list
  683. # [13:50] <Philip`> rubys: It does indeed seem to be not broken :-(
  684. # [14:11] <rubys> Philip`: why the frown?
  685. # [14:13] <rubys> lol: I see a number of other attempts.
  686. # [14:13] <Philip`> rubys: It's no fun when things work
  687. # [14:14] <rubys> Taking a string of bytes and displaying it as text is an easy problem. The harder problem is finding all the places where this needs to be done.
  688. # [14:16] <Philip`> Sounds like taking a string of bytes and displaying it as text is the wrong problem to solve
  689. # [14:17] <rubys> In the case of a query, it is the only problem?
  690. # [14:19] <Philip`> I think I mean something like: If you had found the right problem to solve, then you wouldn't have to find all the places where bytes are displayed as text and fix them all individually
  691. # [14:21] <Philip`> (I'm not quite sure what the right problem is, but it's probably at a higher level than the individual lines of code that print text, so that it can prevent there ever being any lines of code that do it wrong)
  692. # [14:21] <rubys> I honestly think that all one can do is move around the problem. As an example, Venus is based on XSLT, which you would think solves a number of well-formedness issues. But it still gets data from outside and that data is still bytes and someplace needs to make that assessment.
  693. # [14:23] <Philip`> I think I tend to like the idea of simplifying error-handling by defining things to not be errors
  694. # [14:25] <rubys> HTML 5's serialization, for example, is a wonderful solution in that regard. But what it means is that some times real problems show up as (at best) garbage, and (at worst) vulnerabilities. As I don't view my weblog as mission critical and more as educational (for me!), the balance is different than one I would recommend to the developer of a typical "shopping cart" application
  695. # [14:25] <gsnedders> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/02/html-fives.html — I think we need one more version.
  696. # [14:28] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti0151a340-0309.bb.online.no) ("Leaving")
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  698. # [14:32] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  699. # [14:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: Download the latest copy of the spec, change all mentions of "user agent" to "top hat", add some conformance requirements to ensure interoperability with monocles, then publish it as HatML 5, and your wish will be satisfied
  700. # [14:39] * pesla is now known as pesla\afk
  701. # [14:40] <Lachy> http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/Timed_Divs_HTML - that document doesn't seem to define the <itext> element at all. It just uses it in examples
  702. # [14:41] <Lachy> I also can't figure out why they chose to prefix it with an 'i'. Other than to avoid the naming conflict with SVG, it seems like a fairly arbitrary choice
  703. # [14:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: to avoid conflict with svg and by analogy with iframe
  704. # [14:42] <Lachy> oh, so it means "inline text"?
  705. # [14:42] <Philip`> Doesn't seem a great analogy since you never get non-inline text
  706. # [14:43] <hsivonen> Lachy: no, it means text that lives in a iframe-like nested browsing context for rendering and security purposes
  707. # [14:43] * Joins: svl (n=me@static-213-115-8-83.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  708. # [14:43] <hsivonen> I'm not defending the name, just saying how it came about
  709. # [14:43] <Lachy> I like the idea of being able to style them with CSS, since that means Web Fonts could be used instead of relying on the limited choice of available system fonts
  710. # [14:43] <Lachy> hsivonen, ok, that makes sense
  711. # [14:44] <Lachy> for the category attribute, are "CC" and "SUB" the only allowed values?
  712. # [14:44] <hsivonen> Lachy: there's a whole bunch of those
  713. # [14:44] <Lachy> are they listed anywhere?
  714. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: you'll find it lacks a processing model which makes the proposal hard to discuss at present
  715. # [14:45] <Lachy> oh, here http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/OggText#Categories_of_Text_Codecs
  716. # [14:51] * Quits: svl (n=me@static-213-115-8-83.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  719. # [15:05] * Quits: Mau`werk (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  720. # [15:14] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-106-241-178.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  721. # [15:15] <karlcow> gsnedders: it reminds me of RSS 3.0 http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000574
  722. # [15:16] <gsnedders> karlcow: What does?
  723. # [15:17] <karlcow> the versions of html 5
  724. # [15:17] * gsnedders wonders how
  725. # [15:19] <karlcow> RSS 3.0 came from Aaron Schwartz because of the versions which was popping up here and there around RSS and all the mess in the discussions.
  726. # [15:20] <karlcow> So aaron created RSS 3.0 (text only) to make an ironic way forward.
  727. # [15:20] <karlcow> I think we need more versions of html5 and specifically satiric and artistic ones to add a bit of sanity in these discussions.
  728. # [15:22] <Philip`> Ironic? It looks like a pretty good idea to me
  729. # [15:23] <karlcow> Philip`: Welcome in Duchamp's world
  730. # [15:24] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@203-158-35-55.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  731. # [15:25] <gsnedders> karlcow: Oh, don't worry. I'm working on satire for public-html.
  732. # [15:25] * gsnedders fears someone will take it as a serious suggestion and get behind it, though
  733. # [15:25] <karlcow> gsnedders: ;)
  734. # [15:25] <gsnedders> Just once this damned physics project is done. :(
  735. # [15:27] <karlcow> gsnedders: the physics project is about?
  736. # [15:27] <gsnedders> karlcow: Chromatic aberration
  737. # [15:29] <karlcow> oh cool
  738. # [15:29] * karlcow has suddenly a big memory dive into optics in astrophysics :)
  739. # [15:33] <zcorpan> hmm rss3 looks nice, but it seems none of the people listed on the page have rss3 feeds anymore
  740. # [15:34] <karlcow> zcorpan: poetry.
  741. # [15:35] <zcorpan> would be cool with a text/plain blog with an rss3 feed
  742. # [15:37] <zcorpan> maybe with a commenting system that involved sending email
  743. # [15:40] <jgraham> And admin via telnet?
  744. # [15:41] <rubys> s/rss3/rss5/
  745. # [15:42] <zcorpan> rubys: i thought rss5 wouldn't be text/plain
  746. # [15:42] <Philip`> I want RSS6, which will incidentally reinvent the entire paradigm of computation and provide a new syntax for XSLT that's easier to learn
  747. # [15:43] <jgraham> rss5 would be tag soup, but with delicious error handling :)
  748. # [15:43] * jgraham wishes he had written "spicy croutons of..."
  749. # [15:43] <rubys> in rss5, descriptions would no longer be considered conformant
  750. # [15:56] <Philip`> Descriptions should be deduced by an auto-summarisation algorithm applied to the content of the feed by each consumer application
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  766. # [16:41] * Philip` looks at some bits of BGP and sees that it's much more of a disgusting hack than he imagined
  767. # [16:42] <Philip`> When a network is advertising a route to another network, it can include a 32-bit number which is conventionally interpreted as two 16-bit numbers, where the first number is effectively a namespace (corresponding to the AS number of some network)
  768. # [16:43] <Dashiva> Lachy: You have to smile more while dancing :)
  769. # [16:44] <Philip`> And then there's a giant database of routing information (150MB gzipped text) which includes 'remarks' sections saying things like 'if you send a route with community value 6730:1x130 (where x is 1, 2 or 3) then we'll add a weight of x onto your route before advertising it to France Telecom'
  770. # [16:44] <Philip`> (except not really as a sentence like that - there's a table with a few dozen of these values)
  771. # [16:45] * Kuruma is now known as Kuruma0
  772. # [16:45] <Philip`> I suppose it sort of works in practice, but it just really doesn't seem very nice at all
  773. # [16:45] <Dashiva> That sounds like most of the internet
  774. # [16:46] * Kuruma0 is now known as Kuruma1
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  780. # [16:47] <Philip`> That feature was seemingly designed to provide distributed extensibility, but I can imagine it would be prettier if they gave you more than 16 bits to store all your data in
  781. # [16:48] * Kuruma3 is now known as Kuruma
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  783. # [16:48] * Kuruma is now known as Kuruma5
  784. # [16:49] <Philip`> Aww, how cute, there's one in this database with a little ASCII-art box around their table and a comment saying "Net at Once offer these communities to make the life of our peers and customers more joyful."
  785. # [16:49] <Lachy> Dashiva, did you just watch that old video of me dancing?
  786. # [16:49] * Kuruma5 is now known as Kuruma6
  787. # [16:49] <Lachy> or did you see some more recent photos or something?
  788. # [16:49] <Dashiva> Lachy: Lastweek posted it
  789. # [16:49] * Kuruma6 is now known as Kuruma7
  790. # [16:50] <Lachy> oh. Took him long enough to discover it.
  791. # [16:50] * Kuruma7 is now known as Kuruma9
  792. # [16:51] <Philip`> Maybe I didn't want to post all the photos and videos of WHATWG members all at once, and wanted to spread them over time
  793. # [16:51] <Dashiva> How sneaky of not you
  794. # [16:54] <Lachy> LOL
  795. # [16:55] * Kuruma9 is now known as Kuruma
  796. # [16:55] * Kuruma is now known as Kuruma0
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  798. # [16:58] <gsnedders> Lachy: To ask a more pressing question: Why is there a video of you dancing online?
  799. # [16:58] <hsivonen> my innerHTML impl still crashes. sigh
  800. # [17:01] <gsnedders> Pfff. Writing code that crashes. I just write code that causes the interpreter I use to crash.
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  802. # [17:03] <Lachy> gsnedders, the video was created for a presentation I did on the video element in June 2007 at WebJam.
  803. # [17:03] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  804. # [17:03] * hsivonen used a video of a groundhog eating. much less exciting
  805. # [17:03] <Lachy> it's interesting that Mr Last Week linked to the video in this user's account http://www.youtube.com/user/fredbezies instead of my own.
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  808. # [17:13] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/clickjack.html - i guess ClearClick doesn't work here?
  809. # [17:15] <hsivonen> woohoo! I pass zcorpan's tests at http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/fragment/content-model-flag/
  810. # [17:17] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
  811. # [17:18] <Philip`> zcorpan: I thought the idea was that ClearClick would take a screenshot of the page, in which the iframe is invisible in your example, and a screenshot of the iframe content, and compare them
  812. # [17:19] <Philip`> Oh, but your thing makes it not invisible, but I was only testing it in Opera where your example doesn't seem to work at all
  813. # [17:20] <jgraham> I think clearclick work in zcorpan's example
  814. # [17:20] <Philip`> Presumably ClearClick doesn't prevent you having iframes that are smaller than their content
  815. # [17:21] <Philip`> so it can only be comparing the pixels that are within the iframe box
  816. # [17:21] <zcorpan> Philip`: opera seems to have a bug where it doesn't send mousemove events properly on the demo
  817. # [17:21] <Philip`> Oh, but your iframe is 500x600 pixels so I guess it'll be comparing all of those pixels
  818. # [17:22] <zcorpan> hmm i guess i could make the iframe smaller but the scrollbars would be overlapping the content
  819. # [17:22] <zcorpan> is there a way to hide the scrollbars?
  820. # [17:22] <zcorpan> scrolling=no?
  821. # [17:25] <zcorpan> hmm actually i can't make the iframe smaller because then the button wouldn't be clickable
  822. # [17:26] <zcorpan> or is it possible to scroll the contents of an iframe? maybe there's an id="" somewhere
  823. # [17:26] <Philip`> Can you make the iframe suddenly pop into visibility just before it's been clicked?
  824. # [17:27] <zcorpan> maybe
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  829. # [17:39] <zcorpan> #installTrigger47072 worked for vertical scrolling, maybe that's good enough and i can have a 500x1 pixels iframe following the mouse
  830. # [17:39] <zcorpan> oh actually
  831. # [17:40] <zcorpan> if i make the iframe smaller it will scroll horizontally, too
  832. # [17:40] <zcorpan> sweet
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  835. # [17:43] <zcorpan> at least in opera
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  837. # [17:47] <zcorpan> uploaded a new version where the iframe is 3x3 pixels
  838. # [17:47] <zcorpan> but it doesn't seem to scroll to the right place in firefox :(
  839. # [17:48] <zcorpan> works in opera and safari, at least
  840. # [17:48] <gsnedders> "the president of Rockstar North stated that the Lost and Damned would have a third of the number of missions as Grand Theft Auto IV, placing its length at approximately 10-15 hours"
  841. # [17:48] <gsnedders> Hmm, I completed GTA IV in around 12 hours
  842. # [17:48] <gsnedders> And a third of that is four hours
  843. # [17:48] <gsnedders> (completed insofar as the storyline)
  844. # [17:49] <Philip`> zcorpan: I don't think the Firefox extension installation is going to work so well in Opera
  845. # [17:50] <zcorpan> Philip`: obviously not, that's not the point of the demo :)
  846. # [17:53] <Philip`> If you don't have scripting enabled, you could still cover the screen in hundreds of tiny iframes
  847. # [17:53] * Quits: pesla\afk (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) (Broken pipe)
  848. # [17:53] <Philip`> and the user's bound to click on it
  849. # [17:54] * Philip` wonders if zcorpan has NoScript installed so he can actually test whether it's blocked by ClearClick
  850. # [17:54] <zcorpan> Philip`: i don't but jgraham does :)
  851. # [17:55] <zcorpan> hmm firefox 3 scrolls to the right place, wonder why trunk didn't when i tested
  852. # [17:58] <zcorpan> clearclick still picks up my clickjack attempt :(
  853. # [17:58] * zcorpan goes to drink beer instead
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  855. # [18:08] <annevk> wise choice
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  894. # [20:40] * gsnedders is downloading The Lost and Damned
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  903. # [21:00] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
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  910. # [21:57] <weinig> Lachy: ping
  911. # [22:00] <Hixie> any opera people around?
  912. # [22:00] <Hixie> feedback from opera on mozilla's proposed dropping of <eventsource> and replacing of that entire API with a simple new EventSource(); API (name TBD) would be useful
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  920. # [22:52] <yecril71> Hixie! If you want more feedback from Microsoft,
  921. # [22:52] <yecril71> the first step would be to make the specification readable
  922. # [22:52] <yecril71> under Microsoft Internet Explorer.
  923. # [22:53] <yecril71> It has been raised that overlaying HTML over hardware-accelerated video need not be supported.
  924. # [22:53] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  925. # [22:53] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  926. # [22:54] <yecril71> But I think text captions generate the same problem.
  927. # [22:54] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  928. # [22:54] <scherkus> yecril71: where did you read that?
  929. # [22:54] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  930. # [22:55] <yecril71> About problems with support? On WHATWG discussion group.
  931. # [22:56] <yecril71> It is similar how you cannot have a Swing control overlay a platform control in Java.
  932. # [22:56] <yecril71> (platform controls are called JWT)
  933. # [22:57] <yecril71> Damian Conways e-mail address is wrong.
  934. # [23:02] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@77.167.54.81)
  935. # [23:03] <scherkus> yecril71: yeah just about HTML over hw-accelerated video
  936. # [23:04] <scherkus> same issue with windowed vs. windowless plugins
  937. # [23:06] <annevk> Hixie, simplifying it is probably ok
  938. # [23:07] <annevk> Hixie, note that Opera is already incompatible with the current API
  939. # [23:07] <Hixie> k
  940. # [23:07] <Hixie> oh you didn't actually sync up yet? good
  941. # [23:08] <annevk> it didn't seem worth the effort
  942. # [23:08] <annevk> and I was right
  943. # [23:08] <Hixie> k
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  946. # [23:10] * Philip` thinks that since Canvex is already intentionally completely inaccessible to all IE users, i.e. most people on the planet, it's not really going to be much of an improvement to just add some fallback text for non-graphical browsers
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  953. # Session Close: Sat Feb 21 00:00:00 2009

The end :)