/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 26 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Hixie> ok i fixed the problems in ff2
  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> now upgrading to ff3 to fix those
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  12. # [00:21] <Hixie> whatwg list should work again btw
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  15. # [00:43] <aroben> hsivonen: yt?
  16. # [00:44] <aroben> hsivonen: nm, I've discovered the validator.nu bugzilla
  17. # [00:45] <virtuelv> This might be a dumb question, but is there any particular reason why <meter> is linear only?
  18. # [00:47] <virtuelv> I mean, you have stuff like vu meters which decidedly are logarithmic in nature
  19. # [00:48] <Hixie> just a matter of starting simple
  20. # [00:48] <Hixie> you can use <meter> for log scales, just log the values first :-)
  21. # [00:50] <virtuelv> indeed, but it's nicer to avoid doing a transform on them
  22. # [00:50] <Lachy> virtuelv, if, once <meter> is deployed, we see evidence of people using them for logarithm scales, we can investigate solutions for HTML6
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  24. # [00:52] <Lachy> do you have an example of something that uses a log scale and for which <meter> would be useful?
  25. # [00:52] <virtuelv> I gave one a bit up
  26. # [00:53] <virtuelv> you'll find the examples mostly in science
  27. # [00:53] <Lachy> I don't know what a "vu meter" is. I meant do you have an example you could point me to?
  28. # [00:53] <virtuelv> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VU_meter
  29. # [00:55] <virtuelv> occurences of logarithmic scales: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_scale
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  31. # [01:05] <virtuelv> This also worries me:
  32. # [01:05] <virtuelv> "The meter element represents a scalar measurement within a known range, or a fractional value; for example disk usage, the relevance of a query result, or the fraction of a voting population to have selected a particular candidate."
  33. # [01:05] <virtuelv> it's not clear to me from reading what "known range is"
  34. # [01:05] <virtuelv> is 1-[over 9000] a valid known range?
  35. # [01:06] <virtuelv> [over 9000] is an indeterminate number, only known to be over 9000
  36. # [01:07] <virtuelv> it could be 9001, or 9000^10e8
  37. # [01:08] <Lachy> virtuelv, I think the spec means a range in which both the upper and lower values are known and exact values
  38. # [01:08] <virtuelv> Lachy: and I'm arguing that that is completely wrong
  39. # [01:09] <virtuelv> in the Wikipedia article, there is a perfectly valid usage example of the upper bound being a random number exceeding some value
  40. # [01:09] <Lachy> how would you possibly implement a range in which, e.g., the upper value is somewhere between 9000 and infinity?
  41. # [01:10] <Lachy> which example, specifically?
  42. # [01:10] <virtuelv> the tsunami example
  43. # [01:10] <virtuelv> it's something entirely representable and acceptable within a meter
  44. # [01:11] <virtuelv> disregard the presentation given there
  45. # [01:11] <Lachy> I can't see tsunami mentioned on either the VU_meter or Logarithm_scale pages.
  46. # [01:12] <virtuelv> the map in «Graphic representation»
  47. # [01:13] <virtuelv> an alternative representation here would typically be a bar chart of values
  48. # [01:13] <virtuelv> see also the example in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH
  49. # [01:13] <virtuelv> "Applications"
  50. # [01:15] <Lachy> in that map, the scale is still physically limited to using a single colour for values of 100,000+. To represent such values with a <meter>, you would have to set a fixed upper limit to what can be represented
  51. # [01:16] <virtuelv> Lachy: and the spec claims that meter has a finite upper bound
  52. # [01:17] <virtuelv> ""The meter element represents a scalar measurement within a known range""
  53. # [01:17] <virtuelv> the point that "over 9000" is not within a known range
  54. # [01:18] <Lachy> in that specific map example, you would only need to represent 6 values <meter low=1 high=6>#</meter>, where # is the value
  55. # [01:19] <virtuelv> Lachy: no
  56. # [01:19] <virtuelv> the ph scale is infinite in either direction
  57. # [01:19] <Lachy> well, actually, you might do <meter low=1 high=6 value=3>100-999</meter>
  58. # [01:20] <virtuelv> Lachy: which, again, is not included in the very first sentence in the very first paragraph of the definition of the <meter>
  59. # [01:20] <Lachy> there is no possible way to represent an infinite scale. You have to set a physical upper limit and live with it
  60. # [01:21] <virtuelv> (there is a point here about logarithmic scales and values and ranges
  61. # [01:21] <virtuelv> trying to argue against this is arguing against a couple of hundred years of science where logarithmic scales have been used
  62. # [01:22] <Lachy> I'm not arguing against logarithmic scales. I'm saying that to represent them, something, somewhere, needs to set an upper limit in order to be able to render the scale within a finite size.
  63. # [01:23] <virtuelv> no, you *can't*
  64. # [01:23] <virtuelv> the point is that +inf is a perfectly valid upper bound as well
  65. # [01:24] <Hixie> syp: works fine for me in ff3 on windows
  66. # [01:25] <syp> Hixie: ff3 should be fine, it's only 3.1 beta2 that had issues.
  67. # [01:25] <Lachy> sure, mathematically, it is. But I'm talking about how to represent that physically where it is absolutely not possible to represent truly infinite scale in a finite space. There are physical limits that have to be dealt with, and that map example is a perfect illustration, since it sets the physical limit at 100,000+
  68. # [01:25] <Hixie> syp: oh, a beta, ok
  69. # [01:25] <Hixie> syp: sorry, missed the beta part :-)
  70. # [01:26] <Hixie> virtuelv: <meter> isn't yet intended for all those cases
  71. # [01:26] <virtuelv> Hixie: what is, then?
  72. # [01:26] <Hixie> in html5? nothing, just like html4
  73. # [01:26] <Hixie> ue svg :-)
  74. # [01:26] <virtuelv> right now it seems to mostly cater to google pagerank display and search result relevance
  75. # [01:26] <Hixie> use even
  76. # [01:27] <syp> Hixie: and it now works with Firefox 3.1 post beta2, so that shouldn't be a big deal.
  77. # [01:27] <virtuelv> in the matter of max value and upper bound, sure it's ok to impose a "practical" limit
  78. # [01:27] <Hixie> syp: k
  79. # [01:28] <Hixie> virtuelv: the main use case now is to discourage people from using <progress>
  80. # [01:28] <virtuelv> huh?
  81. # [01:28] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  82. # [01:29] <Hixie> the main use case for <meter> is to give people who would otherwise abuse <progress> to show static data an alternative
  83. # [01:30] <Hixie> so that people don't abuse <progress>
  84. # [01:31] <virtuelv> yes, I understand that's what you meant, I'm just puzzled by why you're creating one element with limited use to discourage use of other elements
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  86. # [01:32] <virtuelv> that's like reinstating <strike> into the spec because otherwise people would abuse <del>
  87. # [01:36] <virtuelv> <strike> would've been better named as <justkidding>
  88. # [01:36] <Hixie> virtuelv: well for <del> here's CSS
  89. # [01:36] <Hixie> for <progress> there isn't really a good alternative right now for non-progress meters
  90. # [01:36] <Hixie> i expect <meter> will be extended in html6, like everything else
  91. # [01:36] <Hixie> we have to start small
  92. # [01:37] <Hixie> holy crap the HTML5 spec doesn't work well in IE8 compat mode
  93. # [01:37] <Hixie> about 25% down the spec disappears
  94. # [01:37] <Hixie> wtf
  95. # [01:40] <virtuelv> Hixie: for then, could you also make a note of having a mechanism for discretization of values for meter (and possibly progress, even)
  96. # [01:41] <virtuelv> I mean, you can be 2/3rds done, but you want to represent it as one dot, two dots, three dots
  97. # [01:41] <Hixie> ?
  98. # [01:41] <Hixie> for when?
  99. # [01:42] <Hixie> the presentational aspects are separate from html5 really
  100. # [01:42] <Hixie> i mean there's a presentation section that gives some constraints
  101. # [01:42] <Hixie> but generally it's up to the browser or the author with xbl
  102. # [01:45] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  103. # [01:49] <virtuelv> Hixie: my point is that, let's say I want to represent a large range of values with <meter> in a table
  104. # [01:50] <virtuelv> I want the range 0-100 to be represented by a value of 1 indicator step in your default presentation
  105. # [01:50] <virtuelv> the range 100-1000 by another
  106. # [01:50] <virtuelv> and 1001-9000 by a third level
  107. # [01:50] <virtuelv> and "over 9000" to be represented by a fourth
  108. # [01:51] <virtuelv> (Sorry about the 4chan-trolling-Oprah example)
  109. # [01:52] <Hixie> then just use a unicode block character or something
  110. # [01:52] <Hixie> no need for <meter>
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  112. # [01:53] <Hixie> yeah the problem is the idn thing
  113. # [01:54] <Hixie> er, wrong channel again!
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  129. # [02:45] <Hixie> huh, this turned out to be a pretty good article
  130. # [02:45] <Hixie> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=protocols_and_standards&articleId=9128096&taxonomyId=141&intsrc=kc_feat
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  136. # [03:07] <Lachy> compared with previous computer world articles I've read, that's certainly one of the better ones
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  138. # [03:27] <Hixie> so is there a way to use these transition thingies to make an element flash yellow temporarily when it's the :target?
  139. # [03:27] <Hixie> or does that require script somehow
  140. # [03:29] <Lachy> Hixie, I think that would need a script or CSS Animations http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSAnimation.html
  141. # [03:30] <Hixie> ooh, css animations
  142. # [03:30] <Hixie> forgot about those
  143. # [03:30] <Lachy> I think webkit supports that, though I haven't played with them yet. Opera doesn't yet have support for them, even internally
  144. # [03:31] <roc_> I'm not sold on CSS animations
  145. # [03:32] * roc_ is now known as roc
  146. # [03:32] <roc> but I think you can do Hixie's thing using CSS transitions
  147. # [03:32] <Lachy> how?
  148. # [03:32] <Lachy> you would need a script to control it
  149. # [03:32] <roc> set up a transition on, say, background-color
  150. # [03:33] <roc> add a CSS rule blahblah:target { background-color:yellow; }
  151. # [03:33] <Lachy> sure, but that only allows it to transition from one value to another. It won't flash temporarily as he wants.
  152. # [03:33] <Hixie> yeah i'm just looking to flash it temporarily
  153. # [03:33] <roc> just make the transition slow
  154. # [03:34] <Hixie> i want the element to quickly go to yellow, then fade to white
  155. # [03:34] <Hixie> when it is :target
  156. # [03:34] <Hixie> the rule above would make it fade to yellow and stay yellow
  157. # [03:34] <roc> you can control the shape of the transition
  158. # [03:34] <Hixie> can you make it go backwards?
  159. # [03:34] <Lachy> no, you can't make it go backwards
  160. # [03:35] <Hixie> then it doesn't really help
  161. # [03:35] <Hixie> unless i'm missing something
  162. # [03:35] <roc> I guess you're right
  163. # [03:36] <Lachy> maybe you could do it with generated content
  164. # [03:37] <Hixie> oh?
  165. # [03:37] <Lachy> hmm, thinking...
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  167. # [03:39] <Lachy> foo::before { -o-transition: background-color 2s; background: yellow; visibility: hidden; position: ...; /* make it sit behind the element*/ } foo:target::before { visibility: visible; background: transparent; }
  168. # [03:40] <roc> you could even use display:none instead of visiblity:hidden to make that less expensive
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  170. # [03:41] <Lachy> roc, sure. I didn't realise there was a performance difference between the two
  171. # [03:41] <Hixie> the "..." part is the tough one
  172. # [03:42] <Lachy> hence why I did the "..." :-)
  173. # [03:42] <Hixie> since for various reasons i don't want to set position:relative on everything else
  174. # [03:43] <Lachy> if you want it to work for everything, setting position: relative; would be relatively inexpensive. But doing it for everything certainly would be painful.
  175. # [03:43] <Lachy> I meant, if you want to do it for *headings only*
  176. # [03:45] <roc> you could hack it with borders
  177. # [03:45] <Lachy> try the old fashioned way: :target { background-image: url(animated-yellow-fadout.gif); }
  178. # [03:46] <Lachy> how?
  179. # [03:46] <Lachy> roc, how would you do it with borders?
  180. # [03:46] <roc> foo { transition: border-color 2s; border-style:none; border-color:yellow; } foo:target { border-style:solid; border-color:transparent; }
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  182. # [03:47] <roc> well I guess that doesn't do exactly what you want
  183. # [03:47] <Lachy> but that doesn't have the border behind the element
  184. # [03:47] <roc> maybe you want border-style:hidden so the layout doesn't change
  185. # [03:47] <roc> or do it with 'outline' instead
  186. # [03:48] <Lachy> an outline with an outline-offset might work.
  187. # [03:48] <roc> Hixie didn't say it had to be behind the element
  188. # [03:48] <Lachy> well, he said he wanted it for the background, which is behind the element.
  189. # [03:49] <Lachy> well, at least, he implied it
  190. # [03:49] <roc> not to me he didn't :-)
  191. # [03:49] <Lachy> how else do you make "the element flash yellow"
  192. # [03:50] <Hixie> i found another solution to bz's problem
  193. # [03:50] <Hixie> body { margin-bottom: 25% }
  194. # [03:50] <Lachy> what was his problem?
  195. # [03:51] <Hixie> going to a small bottom section in the multipage version didn't clearly show which section was targetted
  196. # [03:52] <Lachy> oh, ok. I was wondering why the spec wasn't long enough as it is :-)
  197. # [03:52] <Hixie> hah
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  199. # [03:54] <Lachy> Hixie, there's a bug in the status box script, which shows the floating status box for one section in subsequent sections if they don't have one of their own
  200. # [03:55] <Hixie> that's intentional
  201. # [03:55] <Hixie> feel free to add new section boxes if it's going from like an h3 section to an h2 section though
  202. # [03:55] <Hixie> (the section boxes are actually just targetting any element child of <body> with an ID, iirc)
  203. # [03:56] <Lachy> see, e.g., http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-marquee-element-0 and subsequent sections. It didn't make sense that it said Yet to be specified, even though the sections I'd scrolled to had lots of content
  204. # [03:56] <Hixie> (i.e. they're not really "section" boxes)
  205. # [03:56] <Lachy> ok
  206. # [03:58] <Hixie> i added a box
  207. # [03:58] <Hixie> ok dinner bbiab
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  247. # [09:18] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  248. # [09:20] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  249. # [09:22] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@APuteaux-155-1-70-137.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  250. # [09:40] * Hixie kills <eventsource>
  251. # [09:40] <Hixie> poor element
  252. # [09:40] <Hixie> it had a rough life
  253. # [09:40] * Hixie welcomes the new EventSource('...') object!
  254. # [09:41] <hsivonen> Is new EventSource() compatible with what Opera shipped? That is, does it create an <event-source> DOM node in Opera? like Image()
  255. # [09:41] <Hixie> no, not even remotely
  256. # [09:41] <Hixie> but what the spec said yesterday wasn't either
  257. # [09:42] <hsivonen> ok. sucks to be the one gaining impl. experience
  258. # [09:42] <Hixie> yup
  259. # [09:42] <Hixie> we've changed the wire format and its mime type since opera shipped event-sourec
  260. # [09:42] <Hixie> event-source
  261. # [09:42] <Hixie> and now the api
  262. # [09:42] <Hixie> there's basically nothing left except the idea :-)
  263. # [09:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: so what's the remaining selling point over Web Sockets? that you can feed EventSource from a regular HTTP server?
  264. # [09:43] <Hixie> the only selling point over websocket that it's ever had is that it is compatible with CGI scripts
  265. # [09:44] <Hixie> i.e. yes
  266. # [09:44] <hsivonen> ok
  267. # [09:44] <Hixie> but apparently that's enough to keep people eager to have it
  268. # [09:45] * Joins: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.224.1)
  269. # [09:50] <annevk2> I'm sort of glad the API is much simpler now
  270. # [09:51] <Hixie> it's actually technically more complicated :-)
  271. # [09:51] <Hixie> at least, the idl is bigger
  272. # [09:51] <Hixie> but yeah, it's simpler
  273. # [09:51] <annevk2> dude
  274. # [09:51] <Hixie> yes?
  275. # [09:51] <annevk2> it was even more complicated at the start, when you could create all kinds of event objects
  276. # [09:52] <annevk2> Hixie, I object to technically more complicated on the basis that the IDL has more lines!
  277. # [09:52] <Hixie> :-)
  278. # [09:52] <Hixie> it is indeed far simpler now
  279. # [09:52] <Hixie> for example you can no longer hook an EventSource to an XMLHttpRequest object
  280. # [09:52] <Hixie> (cue "awwwww")
  281. # [09:52] <hsivonen> not AWWW? :-)
  282. # [09:52] <Hixie> but i did add a few more features while i was at it
  283. # [09:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: hah
  284. # [09:55] <gsnedders> awwwww
  285. # [09:55] * gsnedders misses that feature
  286. # [09:57] <annevk2> Hixie, the URL attribute should probably return the absolute URL
  287. # [09:59] <Hixie> remind me in ten minutes
  288. # [10:08] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.224.1)
  289. # [10:19] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  290. # [10:19] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  291. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/ is 403
  292. # [10:25] <Hixie> yikes
  293. # [10:26] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  294. # [10:27] <Hixie> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/
  295. # [10:31] <annevk2> I have to say, it really sucks that the archives keep moving around
  296. # [10:32] <annevk2> maybe we should ask the W3C for some mail server space o_O
  297. # [10:32] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  298. # [10:32] <Hixie> heh
  299. # [10:34] <Hixie> did i miss some e-mails on the spellcheck issue? i have some still in my whatwg folder from before my last e-mail on the subject
  300. # [10:34] <Hixie> how odd
  301. # [10:35] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  302. # [10:36] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-3d49354aba28e6eb)
  303. # [10:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  304. # [10:38] <hsivonen> I gather the URI structure instability is due to Dreamhost managing the whole thing?
  305. # [10:38] <Hixie> yeah
  306. # [10:38] <Hixie> the utter disaster of an archive system is blamed on the same reason
  307. # [10:38] <annevk2> Hixie, do you remember the reason #123 does not work in CSS?
  308. # [10:41] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@118.71.78.53) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  309. # [10:41] <hsivonen> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/582352/how-can-i-ignore-dtd-validation-but-keep-the-doctype-when-writing-an-xml-file
  310. # [10:42] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.22.19)
  311. # [10:42] <Hixie> annevk2: because css1 says it doesn't? dunno
  312. # [10:43] <hsivonen> Is this yet another case of an arbitrary decision that indents can't start with digits?
  313. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Is that some kind of old programming language thing that parsers should be able to decide if they are parsing an ident or a number literal from the first character?
  314. # [10:44] <annevk2> well, that has a reason, to distinguish them from numbers + unit
  315. # [10:44] <annevk2> Hixie, I thought there was some other reason, ta
  316. # [10:45] <hsivonen> oh, right CSS has units. not arbitrary then. sorry
  317. # [10:46] <hsivonen> I'm just knee-jerk annoyed by stuff like XML Name
  318. # [10:46] <annevk2> no shit
  319. # [10:46] <annevk2> XML5 baby
  320. # [10:49] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.22.19) (Remote closed the connection)
  321. # [10:49] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  322. # [10:50] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.22.19)
  323. # [10:50] <Hixie> annevk2: my guess is originally hakon and bert were trying to match html
  324. # [10:51] <Hixie> annevk2: hakon might know
  325. # [10:51] <annevk2> kk
  326. # [10:54] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.22.19) (Remote closed the connection)
  327. # [10:54] <annevk2> crap, web-apps-tracker fails with a 500
  328. # [10:54] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  329. # [10:54] <annevk2> did DreamHost change anything?
  330. # [10:56] * svl_ is now known as svl
  331. # [10:58] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-014.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
  332. # [10:59] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  333. # [10:59] * Hixie looks in his filter folder
  334. # [10:59] <Hixie> holy crap
  335. # [10:59] <olliej> Hixie: that sky has fallen
  336. # [10:59] <Hixie> so that's where all the public-html activity has gone
  337. # [10:59] <olliej> s/that/the
  338. # [10:59] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  339. # [10:59] <Hixie> olliej: which one?
  340. # [10:59] <olliej> Hixie: can you test html5.org ?
  341. # [11:00] <Hixie> test?
  342. # [11:00] * Hixie confoosed
  343. # [11:00] <olliej> it's gone for me
  344. # [11:00] <olliej> server no workie
  345. # [11:00] <olliej> i'm trying to find out whether the server is down, or comcast hates freedom
  346. # [11:00] <Hixie> yeah doesn't work for me either, but i'm on comcast
  347. # [11:00] <Hixie> anne runs that server though
  348. # [11:01] <olliej> bad annevk2
  349. # [11:01] <annevk2> you joined just after I complained about DreamHost
  350. # [11:02] <olliej> ah :D
  351. # [11:02] <annevk2> because I didn't do shit
  352. # [11:02] <olliej> annevk2: nerget.com is doing fine :D
  353. # [11:02] <Hixie> so's whatwg.org :-)
  354. # [11:03] <didymos> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/html5.org heh
  355. # [11:03] <didymos> Hixie, but whatwg.org works fine
  356. # [11:04] <annevk2> so everything went down?
  357. # [11:04] <annevk2> geez
  358. # [11:04] <annevk2> initially it was just the tracker
  359. # [11:04] <Hixie> everything on your account, i guess
  360. # [11:05] <annevk2> yeah
  361. # [11:06] <gsnedders> And gsnedders.com isn't on dreamhost :P
  362. # [11:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: What is it on?
  363. # [11:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: mediatemple, for now
  364. # [11:08] <Hixie> probably the same stuff gsnedders himself is on
  365. # [11:08] <gsnedders> Touché.
  366. # [11:08] <Hixie> :-D
  367. # [11:08] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  368. # [11:08] * Joins: srushe (n=srushe@81.130.239.199)
  369. # [11:08] <gsnedders> Is it bad that I realized I haven't taken any (medical) drugs today because of that?
  370. # [11:09] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-34-59.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  371. # [11:09] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  372. # [11:09] <Hixie> as someone who rarely if ever takes medical drugs of any kind, i am not in a position to answer that question
  373. # [11:10] * Philip` can't connect to hobgoblin at all
  374. # [11:10] <gsnedders> annevk2: What's a spec you edit that uses biblio?
  375. # [11:11] <gsnedders> (or anyone else edits, but you probably know what you edit better)
  376. # [11:11] <Philip`> annevk2: I hope you'll refund a substantial portion of what I'm paying you for hosting philip.html5.org
  377. # [11:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: It depends if it reminded you to take some regular medical drugs or if it was just a passing observation that you haven't taken any irregular drugs tody
  378. # [11:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Regular medical drugs
  379. # [11:12] <annevk2> gsnedders, I don't use biblio, I do stuff by hand
  380. # [11:12] <gsnedders> Who does? P
  381. # [11:12] <gsnedders> * :P
  382. # [11:12] <annevk2> gsnedders, actually, css3-mediaqueries might use biblio
  383. # [11:13] <annevk2> Philip`, EUR -1000 coming right at ye
  384. # [11:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh well in that case it is probably good that it reminded you but bad that you had forgotten :)
  385. # [11:13] <Philip`> annevk2: Excellent!
  386. # [11:13] * gsnedders remembers seeing something that claims annevk2 edits using it
  387. # [11:13] <gsnedders> annevk2: css-namespace does
  388. # [11:14] <annevk2> well, that's two specs then
  389. # [11:14] <gsnedders> But that was mainly fantasai judging from the commit log
  390. # [11:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, it's reminded the reason why I haven't: I need food to have some of the pills, and I haven't had breakfast yet.
  391. # [11:15] * jgraham sympathises
  392. # [11:16] * jgraham suffers for incredible medication related paranoia as it is hard to conclusively prove to yourself that you took the right number of tablets at the right time
  393. # [11:16] * gsnedders has probably taken numerous overdoses of paracetamol because of that, but has seemingly lived
  394. # [11:19] <jgraham> I guess paracetamol is not so bad
  395. # [11:19] * gsnedders is also nowadays reguarly on Diclofenac
  396. # [11:21] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-3d49354aba28e6eb) ("Leaving")
  397. # [11:21] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  398. # [11:22] <gsnedders> (without taking either I can scarcely move for pain)
  399. # [11:22] * jgraham looks that up, decides that gsnedders is unlikely to be suffering from menstrual pain
  400. # [11:22] <gsnedders> :P
  401. # [11:22] <gsnedders> Despite most of my friends at school concluding I am a girl, that is indeed correct.
  402. # [11:23] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  403. # [11:24] * Quits: srushe (n=srushe@81.130.239.199)
  404. # [11:33] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  405. # [11:39] * Quits: annevk2 (n=opera@fnttkyo029008.tkyo.fnt.ftth2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
  406. # [11:39] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@fnttkyo029008.tkyo.fnt.ftth2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  407. # [11:39] <Philip`> "Building Services has just installed anti-bacterial soap dispensers in each of the kitchens to help to reduce the risk of the vomiting viral infection."
  408. # [11:40] <Philip`> Isn't anti-bacterial soap a bit unsuitable for stopping viruses?
  409. # [11:41] <Dashiva> Not if it's anti-your-own-bacteria and leads to your hands falling off?
  410. # [11:42] <Philip`> Good point
  411. # [11:42] <jgraham> Maybe the soap smells really bad so it causes people to stay further away from each other reducing the risk of virus transmission?
  412. # [11:43] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) ("Killin' teh intarwebs")
  413. # [11:49] * Dashiva wonders why rubys is plotting to overthrow the W3C when they've already given him all the power he wants
  414. # [11:49] <jgraham> What makes you think he's not gone power crazy?
  415. # [11:50] <Dashiva> But if he overthrows them, he will lose the power he has because the legitimacy disappears
  416. # [11:51] <Philip`> The power to overthrow an organisation is greater than the power you can attain by operating within that organisation
  417. # [11:51] <jgraham> And in nay case power-crazed evil geniuses are not noted for their logical reasoning skills
  418. # [11:52] <Dashiva> Oh, so now he's a genius too?
  419. # [11:53] <jgraham> For example givne the choice beteen killing batman using a) a simple gun and b) placing him in the bottom of an eggtimer and slowly letting the sand run through, hich would you pick?
  420. # [11:53] * Joins: srushe (n=srushe@81.130.239.199)
  421. # [11:54] <Dashiva> He's got bulletproof armor, so b) would at least have a non-zero chance of success
  422. # [11:54] <Philip`> Does he have bulletproof armour on his face?
  423. # [11:54] <jgraham> Can the bulletproof armour be removed once you have captured him to the extent that getting him into a giant eggtimer is a possibility?
  424. # [11:55] <Philip`> The giant eggtimer seems easier than capturing him and undressing him
  425. # [11:56] <Dashiva> Now you're assuming capture
  426. # [11:56] <Philip`> e.g. you could drop it from a helicopter
  427. # [11:56] <Dashiva> Or put a hostage inside, so he had to go in voluntarily
  428. # [11:56] <Hixie> Philip`: i hate to interrupt this fascinating if strange conversation, but do you have a uri to that page with summary values?
  429. # [11:57] <jgraham> You could do both of those things with a simple cage, remove any armour, and then finally use a traditional, reliable method of killing
  430. # [11:58] <Philip`> Hixie: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary.html ? (But it's not formatted in a way that makes it easy to tell if most uses are bad, and it's not from anything even attempting to approach a sensible sample of pages)
  431. # [11:58] <Dashiva> Then you'd have to go inside the cage
  432. # [11:59] <jgraham> Dashiva: Expendable henchmen
  433. # [11:59] <Hixie> Philip`: thanks
  434. # [11:59] <Philip`> (But at least it does demonstrate of some pages which would get worse if the summary was rendered in graphical UAs)
  435. # [11:59] <Philip`> s/of//
  436. # [11:59] <Dashiva> jgraham: I think you should provide some justification for why the egg timer isn't good enough
  437. # [12:00] <Philip`> s/s\/of\/\///
  438. # [12:00] <Philip`> s/of/the existence of/
  439. # [12:00] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  440. # [12:02] <jgraham> Dashiva: It p[rovides an unacceptable risk. Egg timers are unproven technology in the killing market. Moreover it introduces a long delay between initiation of death-process and actual death. This provides an ample oppertunity to cleverly escape. Clever escapes are known to be a strong point of batman-like superheros
  441. # [12:03] <Dashiva> We didn't become supervillains by following the rules and playing safe
  442. # [12:03] <Philip`> On the other hand, slow killing processes mean you can film it and sell the distribution rights for a lot of money
  443. # [12:04] <roc> I would like to make a series of very short films. Each one would be based on the opening sequence of an action movie, but showing what happen in real life.
  444. # [12:05] <roc> For example: hero runs from enemies, hero ducks behind cover, hero breaks cover, hero gets shot in the head
  445. # [12:06] <Philip`> These so-called "entertainment" shows are part of a plot by an evil genius to set the public's expectations in such situations, and when he captures the real superhero he will shock the world by demonstrating that his absurd plans actually work in practice when nobody believed they ever would
  446. # [12:06] <roc> Hero notices bomb in room, hero leaps out of window, hero breaks neck
  447. # [12:07] <jgraham> roc: If they were shot-by-shot remakes of well knowwn action movies I would watch that for sure
  448. # [12:07] <jgraham> Oh and assuming they were sufficiently funny
  449. # [12:07] <jgraham> But I don't see how they could fail to be
  450. # [12:08] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.45)
  451. # [12:08] <Dashiva> You'd need a good sound track
  452. # [12:09] <Philip`> Why do movies often have the hero run across a busy road and all the cars honk and swerve, and the hero never gets run over?
  453. # [12:10] <Dashiva> Because otherwise the hero would have to be a slow runner to let the enemy escape
  454. # [12:11] <Hixie> it would be pretty funny to remake action movies from the start, stopping at the first point where the hero dies or is incapacitated
  455. # [12:11] <Hixie> many wouldn't last 2 seconds
  456. # [12:11] <Hixie> from what i hear the latest indiana jones is like that -- movie starts, character gets nuked. story ends.
  457. # [12:11] <Hixie> along with its franchise.
  458. # [12:12] <roc> actually he would have died several times before reaching the nuke bit
  459. # [12:12] <Philip`> You could still tell the story in flashbacks, so it wouldn't necessarily be a bad movie
  460. # [12:12] <Hixie> roc: ah. haven't seen it. good to know.
  461. # [12:14] <Philip`> (like that Monkey Island game where you start hanging on a rope over the edge of a giant hole, and someone comes along and you spend most of the game explaining how you ended up in that predicament, and then the rope snaps)
  462. # [12:15] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  463. # [12:15] <Dashiva> Then you spend 10 years arguing about whether what happens after you fall down is part of canon or not
  464. # [12:16] * zcorpan adds table:before { content:attr(summary); display:table-caption } to his user style sheet
  465. # [12:21] * Philip` likes Hot Fuzz as kind of an action film parody, though it doesn't bother too much with realism
  466. # [12:21] <didymos> Philip`, I'd say it decidedly doesn't bother with realism :)
  467. # [12:21] <roc> LAST ACTION HERO actually attempted this
  468. # [12:21] <roc> I appear to be the only person in the world who likes that movie
  469. # [12:21] <Dashiva> I liked the part where the villain shoots a guy and is surprised there are no cops around after five minutes
  470. # [12:21] <jgraham> "If you wanna be a big cop in a small town fuck off to the model village"
  471. # [12:21] * jgraham liked Hot Fuzz too
  472. # [12:29] <Philip`> I don't remember model villages being a feature of any other movie I've seen
  473. # [12:29] <Philip`> particularly not for the climactic fight scene
  474. # [12:30] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  475. # [12:32] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-8edca15cff3e5e3d)
  476. # [12:37] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@APuteaux-155-1-68-216.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  477. # [12:47] * Disconnected
  478. # [12:49] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  479. # [12:49] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  480. # [12:49] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  481. # [12:49] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  482. # [12:49] <jgraham> Right but Stevef seemed to be implying that it was a bad dataset. But mere non-randomness is not a useful criterion
  483. # [12:50] * Quits: krijnh (n=krijnhoe@ktk.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  484. # [12:51] <Philip`> Datasets are only good or bad to the extent that they support conclusions you might draw from them
  485. # [12:51] <jgraham> Depends what you mean "support" and "want"
  486. # [12:52] <Philip`> and we don't have any datasets that can support precise conclusions about "average sites" or "most sites" etc (since we don't even know what those terms mean)
  487. # [12:52] <Philip`> so we just have to avoid concluding such things
  488. # [12:52] <Philip`> but it's easy to support conclusions like "there exists at least this number of sites with this property"
  489. # [12:53] <Philip`> jgraham: How does it depend on what I mean by "want", when I never used that word? :-)
  490. # [12:54] <jgraham> Ah, I misread "might" as "want to" somehow ;)
  491. # [12:56] <Hixie> zcorpan: the heuristic for layout tables that i thought of the other day is "table has no borders"
  492. # [12:57] <jgraham> Hixie: Have you seen the Mozilla code for this?
  493. # [12:57] <Hixie> code for what?
  494. # [12:57] <jgraham> layout-tables-heuristics
  495. # [12:57] <Hixie> there is code for it?
  496. # [12:57] <Hixie> what does it do?
  497. # [12:58] <Philip`> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/html/nsHTMLTableAccessible.cpp#1029
  498. # [12:58] <jgraham> IIRC it thinks that anything with <th> is a data table, anything with 1 column is a layout table, things with nested tables are (probably?) layout tables, things wwith no borders are probably layout tables and things with > 5 columns are data tables
  499. # [12:58] <jgraham> It's kinda complex
  500. # [12:59] <jgraham> And I would be against specifying anything to distinguish layout tables and data tables at this stage
  501. # [12:59] <Hixie> yes me too
  502. # [13:00] <Hixie> i'd be interested in seeing what the comparison was of that algorithm vs just checking for no borders anywhere in the table
  503. # [13:01] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  505. # [13:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: what about tables like the doctype table in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/new-design/ ?
  506. # [13:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: speaking of the doctype table, updates regarding various opera versions are on my mental todo list. sorry about the delay.
  507. # [13:03] <Lachy> In that whole <canvas> accessibility thread on public-html, were there any actual solid proposals for how to address the problem? So far I've only seen arguments about what the problem is and I'm just over half way through the thread.
  508. # [13:03] <hsivonen> Lachy: perhaps I should post one, but I've been trying to avoid the thread
  509. # [13:04] <jgraham> Lachy: I think there is some vauge suggestion of providing a DOM-accessability api interface
  510. # [13:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: don't we have one: a tree of divs with ARIA stuff on them
  511. # [13:04] <Philip`> Lachy: If I remember correctly, the only specific proposals were to expose the drawText strings to AT somehow, and to add a pushAnnotation() method that does something to indicate to AT what's being drawn
  512. # [13:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: Doesn't meet the bespin usecase afaict
  513. # [13:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: the reason against that I can see is that the DOM may be slower than a novel tree
  514. # [13:05] <Philip`> but those were pretty vague
  515. # [13:05] <Philip`> and I pointed out various problems that make extracting drawText strings very difficult in typical canvas uses
  516. # [13:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: for perf or for other reason?
  517. # [13:05] <jgraham> For performace with large files
  518. # [13:06] <Lachy> ah, yeah, I remember those vague suggestions of DOM Accessibility APIs
  519. # [13:06] <Lachy> but I think I will ignore the rest of that thread for now and move onto something more productive.
  520. # [13:07] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@c-68-49-245-59.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  521. # [13:08] <jgraham> (AFAICT the constraint on bespin is "can't build a DOM tree for all text in the buffer", so maybe it would be possible to do better by dynamically building a DOM just for the visible text or something)
  522. # [13:08] <roc> Hixie: I've seen a fair few data tables that just used backgrounds for styling
  523. # [13:09] * hsivonen guesses annevankesteren.nl and html5.org are on the same failing Dreamhost VM
  524. # [13:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: does the concept of not having an accessible tree for the whole document work for VoiceOver and Orca?
  525. # [13:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: funky
  526. # [13:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: No idea
  527. # [13:10] <Hixie> roc: oh well
  528. # [13:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: is "funky" good or bad here?
  529. # [13:10] <Hixie> neither :-)
  530. # [13:11] <hsivonen> ok.
  531. # [13:11] <Hixie> unconventional and striking
  532. # [13:12] <Philip`> jgraham: It's not clear that they can't build a DOM tree; the problem may be more to do with layout/rendering of the DOM tree
  533. # [13:13] <jgraham> Philip`: That's true, I guess.
  534. # [13:15] <roc> it seems like it should be possible to do what they want with the DOM, with enough engine work
  535. # [13:15] <roc> but there are closely related problems that aren't really possible
  536. # [13:15] <roc> like "virtual" tree rows
  537. # [13:16] <roc> where you have some underlying data model and you want to render complex content for items in the model
  538. # [13:17] <roc> creating the complex content for all items in the model is arbitrarily expensive
  539. # [13:18] <roc> so you end up creating it on the fly in clumsy, error-prone ways
  540. # [13:18] <roc> or building some kind of custom renderer
  541. # [13:18] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  542. # [13:19] <roc> I'm not aware of anyone having developed a really great solution to this problem
  543. # [13:20] <Hixie> http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/011800hth-behavior-incompetents.html
  544. # [13:20] <Hixie> well that explains a lot
  545. # [13:21] <roc> there are lots of "tree control" widgets that provide a limited set of renderings for arbitrary models with great performance
  546. # [13:21] <roc> and there are template solutions that provide flexible rendering with crappy performance
  547. # [13:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: the paper is http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
  548. # [13:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: I thought it had already been mentioned here
  549. # [13:23] <Hixie> possible, i don't always read everything y'all say :-)
  550. # [13:23] <roc> seems like if we just tried a bit harder we could get some kind of template system with great performance
  551. # [13:23] * jgraham also remembers hearing about that before
  552. # [13:25] <Hixie> ok well i guess is should go to bed
  553. # [13:25] <Hixie> nn
  554. # [13:25] <roc> me too
  555. # [13:25] <Hixie> you're on the other side of the planet!
  556. # [13:25] <Hixie> we should NOT be in the same circadion cycle
  557. # [13:26] <Hixie> circadian even
  558. # [13:26] <jgraham> Hixie: I think you're the one with the weird sleep patterns :)
  559. # [13:26] <roc> oh, you're in Europe?
  560. # [13:26] <Hixie> jgraham: can't argue that one
  561. # [13:26] <Hixie> roc: nah, california. we're not really that far away.
  562. # [13:26] <roc> yeah
  563. # [13:26] <roc> just over the water
  564. # [13:26] <Hixie> but you're on the other side of typical maps
  565. # [13:26] <Hixie> so as far as i'm concerned that's the Other Side of the Planet!
  566. # [13:27] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-209-245.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  567. # [13:27] <Hixie> anyway
  568. # [13:27] <Hixie> nn
  569. # [13:29] <zcorpan> ok i've now looked at about 100 pages from http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tagattr/table/summary and not found a single data table with summary (let alone a useful summary)
  570. # [13:32] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@pD95793BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  571. # [13:47] <Lachy> Hixie, in the latest Firefox 3.1 beta, the script that shows the floating status box seems to be causing an infinite loop. I haven't tried the latest trunk yet.
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  574. # [13:58] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  575. # [13:58] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  576. # [13:58] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  577. # [13:58] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  578. # [13:58] <Philip`> zcorpan: If http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-gov.txt wasn't 404 then it would probably be a list of pages slightly more likely to have decent summaries
  579. # [14:00] <Philip`> http://google.com/search?q=cache:http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-gov.txt
  580. # [14:10] <jgraham> It's not quite clear why p(summary is useful|summary & table is data table) should be higher for deep content pages
  581. # [14:10] <jgraham> Since front pages tend to get more attention from designers, consultants etc.
  582. # [14:10] <jgraham> But maybe that is not what you meant
  583. # [14:10] <Philip`> Designers, consultants etc are likely to suggest not putting complex data tables on your front page
  584. # [14:10] <jgraham> Right, I agree that there may be fewer (complex) tables on those pages. I'm not sure you can infer anything about the likely quality of any summary though
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  586. # [14:10] * Parts: nslater (n=nslater@tumbolia.org) ("http://tumbolia.org/nslater")
  587. # [14:10] <Philip`> I was intending to refer to p(page contains a useful summary | page contains a summary), and I'm assuming p(summary is useful | data table) > p(summary is useful | layout table), and assuming p(data table) is lower on front pages
  588. # [14:10] <Philip`> so looking at n front pages with a summary is likely to result in a higher proportion of layout tables, and hence a lower proportion of useful summaries, than looking at n deep content pages
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  591. # [14:10] <jgraham> Philip`: That seems reasonable
  592. # [14:19] * Philip` tries producing a less rubbish list of summary values
  593. # [14:19] <Philip`> s/less/marginally less/
  594. # [14:21] <jgraham> Philip`: How?
  595. # [14:21] <hsivonen> whoa! a lot of summary email while I was looking away from the email app
  596. # [14:22] <Philip`> jgraham: By not basing it on an ancient list of pages scraped from Yahoo search results
  597. # [14:22] <Philip`> and by counting domains rather than pages
  598. # [14:22] * Parts: silkjaer (n=silkjaer@1805ds1-saa.0.fullrate.dk)
  599. # [14:26] <jgraham> Where are you getting the data from?
  600. # [14:27] <Philip`> From the internets
  601. # [14:28] <jgraham> Ah, good start. Waiting for extraterrestrial beings to communicate with earth in HTML format would have been a worse strategy, for example.
  602. # [14:34] * Philip` wonders if jgraham was intending a more specific question
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  604. # [14:36] <jgraham> I suppose I might have meant "how are you selecting pages on the internet to use when looking for data" or something
  605. # [14:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: it seems most of the top few that i looked at of that list have summary="Table for formatting purposes"
  606. # [14:37] <Philip`> jgraham: Ah - just the same dmoz.org list I've always been using
  607. # [14:38] <jgraham> Philip`: Does dmoz.org not have roghly the same front-page bias?
  608. # [14:38] <Philip`> jgraham: It has some front-page bias, but I don't know if it's more or less
  609. # [14:39] <Philip`> (I would guess somewhat less than the other list, which mostly came from Yahoo search results for queries like "a" and "the")
  610. # [14:41] <jgraham> Would a search for a term like "table below" work any better?
  611. # [14:43] <zcorpan> from the gov list, i found 2 or 3 pages that had useful summary and the rest were either repeating a heading or were "for layout"
  612. # [14:44] <jgraham> I guess that could introduce subtle biases since it would mean that the table was being discussed in the body of the text
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  618. # [14:54] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary-20090226.html - it's a bit boring really
  619. # [14:54] <Philip`> Oh, html5.org is back, I should have uploaded it there instead
  620. # [14:56] * hsivonen wonders why cocoa apps go crazy when another cocoa app being debugged dies
  621. # [14:56] * Philip` is getting quite good at writing pages that turn out to be valid when he first runs a validator on them
  622. # [14:57] <hsivonen> garbage collectors are wonderful things for productivity
  623. # [14:58] * hsivonen just finished a long hunt for a premature memory release in C++
  624. # [14:58] <Philip`> Except when you're trying to optimise your program's memory usage and have to reverse-engineer and fight against the GC, I guess
  625. # [14:58] <Philip`> Valgrind makes memory allocation errors much less painful :-)
  626. # [14:59] * Philip` thinks the latest version even tells you what line of code freed a piece of memory that you're using after it was freed
  627. # [14:59] <hsivonen> woohoo! my innerHTML setter no longer crashes
  628. # [15:01] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  629. # [15:02] <hsivonen> Did Hixie just appeal to the expertise of markp on public-html?
  630. # [15:06] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-74-111.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  631. # [15:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, that seemed a bit weak.
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  635. # [15:25] <zcorpan> http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cdesc%3E%3Cmath%3E%3Cb%3E
  636. # [15:28] <zcorpan> is the <b> escaping too far?
  637. # [15:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
  638. # [15:37] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  639. # [15:38] <hsivonen> interesting case. my impl. is per spec, though
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  653. # [16:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: I observe that not dropping foster parented stuff on the floor when parent gone adds a third node operand to the tree operations that an HTML5 tree builder can generate
  654. # [16:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: that is, nsHtml5TreeOperation is bloated by one nsCOMPtr
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  659. # [16:51] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  660. # [16:52] <rubys> The q element is "being considered for removal"?
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  663. # [16:56] * gsnedders needs some way of properly sorting people's names in Python
  664. # [16:56] <jgraham> rubys: I think that is wrong. Although I do remember arguning that <q> is mostly useless. Or was that some other element...
  665. # [16:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: Define "properly"
  666. # [16:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: Deals with people like Anne
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  669. # [16:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: That's not a definition
  670. # [16:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: please let me know if you find you how Danish names are sorted by surname
  671. # [16:58] * gsnedders headdesks
  672. # [16:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: you could be really radical and sort by the whole name like Hixie does
  673. # [16:58] <hsivonen> s/find you/find out/
  674. # [16:59] <rubys> Python even has builtin support for sorting by whole names
  675. # [16:59] <didymos> hsivonen, maybe I can be of assistance regarding the Danish names -- what are you uncertain about?
  676. # [16:59] * Joins: drry (n=drry@mb239.opt2.point.ne.jp)
  677. # [17:00] <hsivonen> didymos: if you have an RFC author like Henrik Frystyk Nielsen, do you sort by N or F if your document is in English and sorted by surname?
  678. # [17:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Wikipedia claims "Capturing this rule in a computer collation algorithm is difficult, and simple attempts will necessarily fail"
  679. # [17:01] <gsnedders> rubys: Where?
  680. # [17:01] * jgraham guesses rubys means sort()
  681. # [17:01] <didymos> hsivonen, I'd sort it by the F -- but to get it exactly right, you'd have to know whether 'Frystyk' is a middle name or surname
  682. # [17:01] <gsnedders> Oh, for whole names
  683. # [17:01] * gsnedders is being dumb
  684. # [17:02] <didymos> hsivonen, but in this case I'm whiling to take a guess and says it's part of his surname
  685. # [17:02] <didymos> wiling*
  686. # [17:02] <hsivonen> didymos: but Danes tend to have names that are between the first name and the last name but don't have the same middle name semantic that e.g. English, Finnish and Swedish middle names have, AFAIK
  687. # [17:02] * Philip` assumes the need to "take a guess" is what makes it hard to capture the rules in a computer collation algorithm :-)
  688. # [17:04] <didymos> Philip`, certainly, but you can often hear on a name, whether it's considered a legal middle- or surname
  689. # [17:04] <hsivonen> didymos: i.e. a middle name that is more surnameish that second given nameish
  690. # [17:04] <didymos> but I certainly see your point
  691. # [17:04] <didymos> hsivonen, exactly
  692. # [17:04] <didymos> and that's why I'm willing to guess -- Frystyk is not a Danish given name
  693. # [17:05] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-014.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk) (Remote closed the connection)
  694. # [17:06] <hsivonen> didymos: should be fun for gsnedders to implement in software :-)
  695. # [17:06] <didymos> hsivonen, yup -- I guess you would have to have the list
  696. # [17:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why implement it in software, rather than getting a human to specify the ordering?
  697. # [17:06] <didymos> and even then, you wouldn't be 100%
  698. # [17:07] <gsnedders> didymos: Humans are lazy
  699. # [17:07] <gsnedders> Philip`, rather
  700. # [17:07] <didymos> gsnedders, :)
  701. # [17:07] <didymos> oh well, I'm off -- good luck gsnedders and hsivonen
  702. # [17:07] <gsnedders> It's only me
  703. # [17:08] <hsivonen> I've dodged the issue by not trying to sort or transpose people's names in bibliography
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  706. # [17:10] * hsivonen wonders if hCard supports surnameish but optional middle names these days
  707. # [17:10] <hsivonen> IIRC, it didn't a couple of years ago
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  709. # [17:13] <gsnedders> hsivonen: What do you mean?
  710. # [17:13] <Philip`> Hmm, is hobgoblin down again? It was fine a little while ago, but now it doesn't respond
  711. # [17:14] <Philip`> Anyway: http://fonts.philip.html5.org/ now has more fonts and fewer bugs, since I finally uploaded the most recent code
  712. # [17:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It supports them fine when you explicitly mark each first/middle/sur- name
  713. # [17:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: my point is that e.g. Danish surnameish middle names are semantically different from English-oriented "middle names", and this semantic distinction is not captured
  714. # [17:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: use case: sorting
  715. # [17:16] <gsnedders> It's captured as much as it is in vCard :P
  716. # [17:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just make authors mark which name-component they expect it to be sorted by
  717. # [17:16] <jgraham> That satisfys WWLD
  718. # [17:16] <jgraham> (or rather, in this case, WWBD)
  719. # [17:16] <gsnedders> B?
  720. # [17:16] <jgraham> Bibtex
  721. # [17:16] <Philip`> L?
  722. # [17:16] <gsnedders> Ahj
  723. # [17:16] <Philip`> Oh
  724. # [17:16] <gsnedders> *Ah
  725. # [17:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: seems like a failure for semantics :-)
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  743. # [18:02] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/04/07/570798.aspx - apparently people really like making text bold
  744. # [18:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: with <strong>?
  745. # [18:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: Heh Save is number 2. That says something about how much users truct Word...
  746. # [18:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: No, with the button that says "B" on it
  747. # [18:04] <Philip`> jgraham: hsivonen?
  748. # [18:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: I do that with everything though
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  750. # [18:04] <jgraham> Er, I was going to say something to hsivonen earlier and it was still on my input line
  751. # [18:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: Get lightroom
  752. # [18:05] <jgraham> No save
  753. # [18:05] * gsnedders needs to do that
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  755. # [18:05] <jgraham> also: 100% pure awesomeness
  756. # [18:05] <gsnedders> The issue is getting it at edu cost is such a pain and a lot of effort
  757. # [18:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: It was pretty easy for me. Just had to scn+email my student ID
  758. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Actually, that isn't the issue.
  759. # [18:06] <gsnedders> The fact is I'm lazy
  760. # [18:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't remember it being so easy when I got PS
  761. # [18:07] <jgraham> In fact I think there might be a eb form
  762. # [18:07] <gsnedders> eb?
  763. # [18:07] * jgraham has to go now
  764. # [18:07] <jgraham> web
  765. # [18:07] * jgraham is standing up and typing
  766. # [18:07] <gsnedders> adios
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  771. # [18:34] <rubys> hixie: ping?
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  783. # [19:13] <rubys> For hixie when he gets back: your name has been added to http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 ; if you disagree, please either let me know or simply remove it
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  786. # [19:22] <annevk2> from Opera Yngve will likely be there since he's going to the IETF stuff anyway
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  788. # [19:23] <annevk2> I might want to join some IRC discussion channel if feasible to comment on CORS, but I don't expect it to matter much
  789. # [19:25] <gsnedders> Oh, I was going to email Yngve
  790. # [19:25] * gsnedders is reminded
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  814. # [21:02] * gsnedders stabs lxml's data structure
  815. # [21:04] <gsnedders> DOM would be nice for once! :'(
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  825. # [23:23] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  826. # [23:23] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  827. # [23:23] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  841. # [23:53] <fantasai> Is there a fragment identifier syntax defined for bitmap images?
  842. # [23:53] <fantasai> I haven't found one, but I figured someone here would be more likely to know for sure.
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  846. # [23:58] <roc> what do you mean? like <a href="foo.png#abc">?
  847. # [23:58] * svl_ is now known as svl
  848. # [23:59] <fantasai> roc: yeah
  849. # Session Close: Fri Feb 27 00:00:00 2009

The end :)