/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <fantasai> roc: although probably for PNG you'd want something like <a href="foo.png#slice(40,50,20,100)">
  4. # [00:00] <roc> I've never heard of such a thing
  5. # [00:00] <nessy> the W3C media fragments working group is looking at specifying something like this - mostly for video and audio, but it would be applicable to images that support fragment naming
  6. # [00:00] <roc> I see
  7. # [00:00] <roc> I guess that would be nice for image tiling
  8. # [00:00] <fantasai> image sprites
  9. # [00:01] <roc> sprites I meant
  10. # [00:01] <fantasai> yeah
  11. # [00:01] <roc> although personally I'd rather just promulgate jar:
  12. # [00:01] <nessy> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Main_Page
  13. # [00:01] <nessy> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Syntax
  14. # [00:02] <karlcow> fantasai: nope. Video activity is working on something for video.
  15. # [00:02] <karlcow> for png none
  16. # [00:02] <karlcow> for webcgm I think yes
  17. # [00:03] <nessy> the proposed sprite syntax is xywh = [unit " : "] int " , " int " , " int " , " int
  18. # [00:03] <fantasai> xywh?
  19. # [00:03] <nessy> for example foo.png#xywh=40,50,20,100
  20. # [00:03] <karlcow> 2.3.6 Hyperlinling http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-WebCGM/REC-02-CGM-Concepts.html#webcgm_2_3
  21. # [00:03] <fantasai> oh
  22. # [00:03] <karlcow> png is not a web format unfortunately
  23. # [00:03] <nessy> xy defines the bottom left point
  24. # [00:03] <nessy> wh width and height
  25. # [00:03] <fantasai> right, right
  26. # [00:04] <fantasai> bottom left?
  27. # [00:04] <fantasai> why not the top left?
  28. # [00:04] <nessy> of the rectable to slice out
  29. # [00:04] <fantasai> yeah
  30. # [00:04] <Hixie> nessy: should i do anything with your whatwg account?
  31. # [00:04] * fantasai thought image maps started at the top left
  32. # [00:04] <nessy> oh, sorry, I think you're right, it might be the top left
  33. # [00:04] * fantasai hasn't looked at them in a long time, though
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  35. # [00:04] <nessy> Hixie: yes, please - I just sent you an email about that :)
  36. # [00:05] <Hixie> ah, cool
  37. # [00:05] <Hixie> haven't caught up with e-mail yet
  38. # [00:05] <nessy> no worries - no rush
  39. # [00:05] <nessy> I have two threads to reply to :)
  40. # [00:05] <karlcow> for video http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/26-video-plh/#%2814%29
  41. # [00:07] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/
  42. # [00:07] <fantasai> karlcow, nessy: So there's two different formats proposed for rectangles?
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  44. # [00:07] <fantasai> xywh= and rect()
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  47. # [00:09] <john_fallows> Hixie: just read the spec updates for SSE, thanks for adding the onerror attribute.
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  49. # [00:09] <Hixie> pleasure
  50. # [00:09] <Hixie> i figured i'd do it at the same time as all the other changes
  51. # [00:09] <john_fallows> one point of clarification, is there now a change of behavior for the error scenarion?
  52. # [00:10] <nessy> fantasai: where did you see rect() ?
  53. # [00:10] <john_fallows> for example, before it seemed to imply that network or server error would silently abort future attempts to request the event stream
  54. # [00:10] <karlcow> fantasai: I don't know what they have chosen for video yet and if it has been definitely chosen.
  55. # [00:10] <nessy> I am part of the media fragments wg
  56. # [00:10] <fantasai> nessy: in the link karlcow sent
  57. # [00:10] <john_fallows> whereas now it seems to continuously retry, giving an opportunity in the error event listener to disconnect
  58. # [00:11] <nessy> we are preparing a WD right now, which should be ready for comments in a few weeks
  59. # [00:11] <fantasai> nessy: cool
  60. # [00:11] <fantasai> nessy: looking forward to it
  61. # [00:11] <nessy> fantasai: that WebCG document is rather old and it seems not being used anywhere
  62. # [00:11] <Hixie> john_fallows: that wasn't my intent; what makes it say it continually retries?
  63. # [00:11] <nessy> correct me if I'm wrong
  64. # [00:11] <karlcow> fantasai: nope the talk was to introduce the video activity
  65. # [00:11] <fantasai> nessy: the csswg would probably be interested
  66. # [00:11] <karlcow> nessy: you are right, there is webcgm 2
  67. # [00:12] <fantasai> nessy: because designers would like to place all their little graphics pieces in one file
  68. # [00:12] <nessy> hehe
  69. # [00:12] <karlcow> ah interesting.
  70. # [00:12] <nessy> well, there are many groups that will want to comment
  71. # [00:12] <karlcow> I wish there was links from png too embedded into the format
  72. # [00:12] <karlcow> s/was/were/
  73. # [00:12] <nessy> that's why there will be a WD with input request
  74. # [00:13] <nessy> links from png ?
  75. # [00:13] <john_fallows> actually, i see it now, there is a clear distinction between "reset the connection" (with retry) and "fail the connection" (no retry), right?
  76. # [00:13] <karlcow> so from html -> to specific part of png.
  77. # [00:13] <karlcow> but also from png to somewhere in the web
  78. # [00:13] <Hixie> john_fallows: i've tried to make it even more crystal clear -- reload and tell me if you still think it retries :-)
  79. # [00:13] <karlcow> so png would really be a web format
  80. # [00:13] <roc> karlcow: imagemaps and SVG should really cover that
  81. # [00:13] <nessy> the URI scheme allows any document to point to a part of a png, including html
  82. # [00:13] <fantasai> nessy: also, the print industry would like the ability to slice images like that in XHTML
  83. # [00:13] <nessy> for outgoing links you have to change the file format :)
  84. # [00:13] <karlcow> roc: SVG is indeed a Web format
  85. # [00:14] <fantasai> nessy: for PNG and JPG
  86. # [00:14] <fantasai> nessy: so if you can specify xywh for any image/* type that'd be cool
  87. # [00:14] <Hixie> john_fallows: (change only visible on the single page copy for now)
  88. # [00:14] <nessy> image maps really are the only way
  89. # [00:14] <karlcow> nessy: yes
  90. # [00:14] <roc> we don't want to bloat a relatively simple format like PNG
  91. # [00:14] <roc> that way lies MNG
  92. # [00:15] <john_fallows> Hixie: looks good, thanks.
  93. # [00:15] * roc glances around nervously
  94. # [00:15] <fantasai> heh
  95. # [00:15] <nessy> the challenge is: you can create a URL to a png or jpg or mpeg or ogg or anything that has a xywh and/or time offset it in, but you cannot guarantee that that URL will be resolved by the server or client
  96. # [00:15] <Hixie> john_fallows: no problem
  97. # [00:16] <john_fallows> Hixie: btw, in the spirit of whatwg naming conventions, perhaps call EventSource something like WebStream? :-)
  98. # [00:16] <nessy> the actual splicing will still need to be done by some software
  99. # [00:16] <fantasai> nessy: yeah, I guess that's the disadvantage there
  100. # [00:16] <Hixie> john_fallows: i was hoping for a better name... not sure WebStream is it, we have other plans for the concept of "streams"
  101. # [00:16] <fantasai> nessy: we can't use CSS's typical "fails to parse" fallback mechanism
  102. # [00:16] <nessy> all you can do is provide a scheme - then the conformant implementations can come over time
  103. # [00:17] <john_fallows> Hixie: really, what do you have in mind there?
  104. # [00:17] <nessy> fantasai: I think we're planning a scheme for making sure there is feedback on whether the URL resolved or not
  105. # [00:17] <Hixie> john_fallows: streams of video from one server plugged into a <video>, streams from a local camera plugged into an XHR to a server, or into a WebSocket to a server, that kind of thing
  106. # [00:17] <nessy> fantasai: so the fallback would be to return the full resource
  107. # [00:18] <fantasai> nessy: yeah, that wouldn't work well for CSS, since we'd want to trigger CSS's parse-time fallback system
  108. # [00:18] <fantasai> nessy: but we can think about that some more on our end :)
  109. # [00:19] <fantasai> nessy: I'm glad to hear someone's working on this
  110. # [00:20] <john_fallows> Hixie: i see, btw i didn't notice any maximum size on a WebSocket frame. When the frame is large, it might be desirable to obtain the contents as a stream instead of a single fully allocated buffer.
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  115. # [00:31] <Hixie> john_fallows: indeed
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  123. # [00:58] <Hixie> rubys1: i tried reading the minutes, but saw nothing for me to do; let me know if i missed anything
  124. # [00:58] <Hixie> the minutes weren't exactly clear
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  126. # [01:03] <Hixie> oops, wrong channel
  127. # [01:03] <Hixie> oh, sam isn't in the right channel
  128. # [01:03] <Hixie> oh well
  129. # [01:05] <Hixie> nessy: done
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  133. # [01:06] <gsnedders> karlcow: Can I ask you for help with SPARQL?
  134. # [01:07] <gsnedders> Also, where would be a better place to ask generally (like, async.)?
  135. # [01:10] <karlcow> gsnedders: the best places are #swig, then http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/, then you can ask me in private if you want. I can be slow to reply though sometimes :)
  136. # [01:11] <gsnedders> karlcow: #swig on irc.w3 I guess?
  137. # [01:13] <smedero> gsnedders: on freenode I believe
  138. # [01:13] <karlcow> on freenode
  139. # [01:14] <gsnedders> k
  140. # [01:14] <gsnedders> thx
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  154. # [02:20] <nessy> Hixie: thanks a lot!
  155. # [02:20] <Hixie> np
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  165. # [03:15] <rubys> hixie: no nothing for you to do, other than confirm your intent to attend the meeting in SF next month
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  173. # [03:20] <annevk2> why exactly does <input type=image> not allow value=""?
  174. # [03:20] * annevk2 missed that
  175. # [03:20] <annevk2> apparently html5-diff does not mention it
  176. # [03:27] * annevk2 now vaguely recalls some debate
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  183. # [04:02] <annevk2> so Opera does not use value=, Safari does
  184. # [04:02] <annevk2> no idea about other browsers
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  188. # [04:22] <annevk2> i.e. <input type=image name=test value=test> becomes ?test.x=2&test.y=2&test=test
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  197. # [05:24] <annevk2> I guess the fact that validator.nu is less than helpful for <input type=text alt=test> is already known?
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  230. # [05:37] <annevk2> Hixie, I would remind you that EventSource.URL should return an absolute URL
  231. # [05:38] <annevk2> Hixie, as a bonus for being so late (I would do it after 10 minutes I believe) I'll add that WebSocket.URL has the same issue
  232. # [05:38] <annevk2> nice copy & paste job
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  235. # [05:39] <annevk2> Hixie, it's sort of tempting to suggest they should have a common base interface
  236. # [05:49] <Hixie> yeah i considered that
  237. # [05:50] <Hixie> WebSocket.URL doesn't have to return an absolute one
  238. # [05:50] <Hixie> because the constructor throws if the URL isn't absolute
  239. # [05:50] <Hixie> anyway i filed a bug
  240. # [05:50] <Hixie> thanks
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  244. # [06:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie: are you planning to add accesskey to the Rendering section?
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  252. # [06:29] <annevk2> ah, fair point about WebSocket.URL
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  256. # [06:46] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i don't know what to do about accesskey
  257. # [06:48] <Hixie> fundamentally it doesn't work
  258. # [06:48] <Hixie> but we need _something_
  259. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, seems like
  260. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> even documenting it to say "this doesn't work interoperably, but here's what the behavior is in some contexts"
  261. # [06:51] <Hixie> that's the minimum we'll do, yeah
  262. # [06:51] <Hixie> i was hoping for better though
  263. # [06:51] <Hixie> (that'll be in the obsolete apis section at some point)
  264. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> I see
  265. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> we definitely do still need some replacement for it that actually works
  266. # [06:51] <Hixie> yeah
  267. # [06:52] <Hixie> i have a folder with 52 e-mails about it
  268. # [06:52] <Hixie> eta april
  269. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> OK
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  275. # [07:20] <Hixie> writing author and UA criteria for DOM APIs poses an interesting problem
  276. # [07:20] <Hixie> i want it to be possible to hide the UA requirements
  277. # [07:20] <Hixie> but that means that DOM requirements end up reading as:
  278. # [07:21] <Hixie> The /foo/ attribute returns the foo. On getting, the user agent must return the foo.
  279. # [07:21] <Hixie> which sounds stupid.
  280. # [07:21] <Hixie> I wonder how to address this problem.
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  285. # [07:42] <annevk2> that's not an author criteria though
  286. # [07:43] <annevk2> that's just explaining how it works
  287. # [07:53] <annevk2> hmm, cool, HTML5 doesn't create CDATASection nodes for text/html
  288. # [07:55] <Hixie> well we need something that tells the author how it works, i mean, i can't just remove the UA criteria leaving just the IDL
  289. # [07:55] <Hixie> or can we?
  290. # [07:59] <annevk2> no, but an introduction section that explains all methods should suffice
  291. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> If the UA criteria are accurately expressed by the IDL, seems like the prose could actually be removed.
  292. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> nm, annevk2 just clarified
  293. # [08:01] <annevk2> it might be a lot of work, but both an author and UA section for each IDL would be ideal, I think
  294. # [08:01] <annevk2> with the same pedantic detail as writing versus parsing HTML
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  298. # [08:09] <hsivonen> In the future, I want to run a benchmark to see if dropping foster-parented stuff on the floor if parent gone would speed up the parser by making tree operation objects smaller by 25%
  299. # [08:14] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  300. # [08:16] <annevk2> sounds like it would use less memory
  301. # [08:21] <hsivonen> annevk2: using less memory for the operation queue would be the obvious effect. the execution speed effect off a more tightly packed queue and one fewer smart pointers to zero on each event is less obvious
  302. # [08:24] <Hixie> annevk2: it's not really clear to me what the author side would say
  303. # [08:25] <annevk2> it would say what the effect would of invoking the method or getting/setting an attribute
  304. # [08:25] <annevk2> would be*
  305. # [08:28] <Hixie> hmm
  306. # [08:29] <annevk2> how else would authors know whether it throws an exception for instance?
  307. # [08:29] <annevk2> and when it would throw, etc.
  308. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> wording could be "Set the foo attribute to..."
  309. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> hmm, or does RFC 2119 discourage that?
  310. # [08:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it bad if authors see that a setter must set and a getter must get instead of seeing that a setter sets and a getter gets?
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  313. # [08:40] <Hixie> annevk2: generally exceptions only happen when the input is invalid
  314. # [08:42] <annevk2> e.g. how does an author know how to use WebSocket()?
  315. # [08:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: not sure what you mean?
  316. # [08:43] <Hixie> annevk2: the intro section
  317. # [08:43] <annevk2> or that document.domain cannot be set to www.example.org after it has been set to example.org
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  319. # [08:43] <Hixie> annevk2: yeah, dunno
  320. # [08:43] <Hixie> an intro paragraph i guess
  321. # [08:44] <annevk2> Hixie, or the canvas 2D interface
  322. # [08:44] <Hixie> that one's gonna be tough
  323. # [08:44] <annevk2> I guess that intro paragraph is the authoring section I'm talking about
  324. # [08:45] <annevk2> I see intro more as explaining what the feature is for
  325. # [08:46] <hsivonen> wow. http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun
  326. # [08:46] * Joins: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-89-133-232-199.catv.broadband.hu)
  327. # [08:58] <roc> hsivonen: fortunately that is going away
  328. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/gyuque/
  329. # [09:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: very cool. Too bad anti-aliasing in the cloth demo in Firefox antialiases against the black background leaving black lines in the ceiling
  330. # [09:11] <hsivonen> the problem is not visible in the Chrome screenshot, but then Chrome cheats and doesn't do AA
  331. # [09:13] <hsivonen> I wonder if the issue could be remedied by multiplying the canvas backing buffer dimensions by an integer, telling canvas to turn AA off upon draw to the backing buffer and then doing a bicubic downsample for display
  332. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: gyuque is the same guy who put together the reflow demos for the last Mozialla 24
  333. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> dunno if you saw those
  334. # [09:14] * hsivonen has no idea how seamless AA is done properly in 3D accelerators
  335. # [09:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you mean the ones that visually annotated wikipedia reflow?
  336. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> yeah, that was one of them
  337. # [09:19] <roc> hsivonen: they use multi-sampling, i.e., roughly what you describe
  338. # [09:24] <hsivonen> roc: in that case, perhaps it would be useful to be able to request a high-res backing buffer without AA in the buffer itself for canvas
  339. # [09:24] <roc> it's not clear that's really what you want for a software renderer
  340. # [09:25] <hsivonen> too slow?
  341. # [09:25] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-192-46.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  342. # [09:25] <roc> maybe
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  347. # [10:08] * jgraham sees public-html email backlog since 19:00Z last night, cries
  348. # [10:08] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-106-241-178.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  349. # [10:10] <hsivonen> tantek: you asked earlier if I had questions about XMDP. What should microformat consuming software do with XMDP profiles?
  350. # [10:10] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-8526f02d1163f630)
  351. # [10:10] <tantek> short answer is - build a dictionary
  352. # [10:10] <hsivonen> tantek: do they in practice?
  353. # [10:11] <tantek> longer answer will take too long at this hour for me I'm afraid, I will have to take your question and get back to you (probably with a wiki page)
  354. # [10:11] <hsivonen> tantek: ok. thanks
  355. # [10:11] <tantek> in practice they haven't needed to no.
  356. # [10:11] <tantek> but parsers *could* parse XMDP profiles, create a dictionary of terms (each with unique URI from the XMDP) and then have fully URI qualified terms
  357. # [10:12] <tantek> like other semantic techniques that use URI qualified terms :)
  358. # [10:12] <hsivonen> tantek: only if people actually used XMDP profiles all the time they use microformats
  359. # [10:12] <tantek> this was a deliberate design decision on my part, so one could define and use microformats, and have them be based in URIs
  360. # [10:13] <tantek> hsivonen, the 15-years-ago-parallel to that statement is: only if people actually used DOCTYPES all the time they use HTML.
  361. # [10:14] <hsivonen> tantek: was basing them in URIs a feature for microformats themselves or is it a feature for compatibility with other semantic technology communities?
  362. # [10:14] <jgraham> It seems that that case is a bit different because the use of doctypes has been driven by a desire to enable backwards-incompatible features in UAs
  363. # [10:14] <tantek> I created XMDP intentionally so that microformats always would/could have compatibility with the semantic technologies being used at the time.
  364. # [10:15] <hsivonen> tantek: ok. Do you see such compatibility still as a necessary thing and XMDP as a good way to get the compatibility?
  365. # [10:16] <tantek> yes I see XMDP as a good way to get the compatibility
  366. # [10:16] <tantek> is the compatibility "necessary"? I think that is still up for debate, but while it is up for debate, I prefer taking the conservative path and at least continuing to *enable* the compatibility.
  367. # [10:17] <hsivonen> OK. (I'm inclined to disagree, since the compatibility relies on the author instead of being in the control of the consumer)
  368. # [10:17] <hsivonen> (that is, I'm inclined to disagree that XMDP is a good way to achieve the compatibility)
  369. # [10:18] <tantek> the problem is that such conclusions (in the absolute) rarely tend to be accurate or useful
  370. # [10:18] <tantek> the better way to think of it would be, what would be a *better* way to achieve the compatibility
  371. # [10:19] <tantek> with a solid (written and published on the web) alternative proposal or proposals
  372. # [10:19] <hsivonen> A better way would be to have a defined hFoo to RDF mapping for each hFoo.
  373. # [10:19] * Quits: mal2 (n=mal@nat/google/x-c87d533862e32eb4) ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de")
  374. # [10:19] <tantek> the point is, with XMDP you don't need to redefine mappings for each microformat
  375. # [10:20] <tantek> with a URI for each term, you're already done
  376. # [10:20] <tantek> since all RDF needs is URIs for terms
  377. # [10:20] <tantek> e.g XFN rel="friend" is defined by http://gmpg.org/xfn/11#friend
  378. # [10:20] <tantek> etc.
  379. # [10:20] <hsivonen> ok, then my concrete proposal would be a single base URI for all microformats.org microformats
  380. # [10:21] <hsivonen> such that consumers can know the URI instead of having to rely on author participation to discover it
  381. # [10:21] <tantek> yes that is a very reasonable request, and in http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do I believe
  382. # [10:21] <tantek> just like W3C DTDs
  383. # [10:21] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  384. # [10:21] <tantek> the parallels are there
  385. # [10:21] <tantek> and with that I will bid you good night. i will take the task of writing a longer answer to your original question of "What should microformat consuming software do with XMDP profiles?"
  386. # [10:22] <hsivonen> because if I wanted to process hFoo in an RDF system, I'd want to be able to ingest all hFoo--not just those hFoo instances with RDF-friendly authors
  387. # [10:22] <hsivonen> tantek: thanks
  388. # [10:22] <tantek> thanks for your excellent questions.
  389. # [10:24] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-106-241-178.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  390. # [10:29] * jgraham is scared by all the people syaing that proprietry heuristics for filtering out layout tables can be used as a justification for spec features known to break in the face of layout tables
  391. # [10:30] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  392. # [10:30] * svl_ is now known as svl
  393. # [10:33] <jgraham> Particularly in the absence of any meaningful data about the mechanisms or accuracy of those heuristics
  394. # [10:35] <Philip`> It does suggest the possibility that maybe HTML5 should define some standard heuristics, and should gather meaningful data on its accuracy, and then could use that as a reason to pay less attention to abuse of attributes on layout tables
  395. # [10:36] <hsivonen> if there were standard heuristics, should validators perform the heuristics, too, and whine about non-empty summaries on what are deemed layout tables?
  396. # [10:36] <jgraham> I suspect the heuristics contain at least a component that depends on the computed style of the table, so it's hard to specify
  397. # [10:36] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host86-134-106-105.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
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  399. # [10:36] <hsivonen> ok.
  400. # [10:37] <hsivonen> I don't want HTML conformance to depend on computed style
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  402. # [10:38] <jgraham> I wonder (and I hope Philip` or someone will tell me) if there is any meaningful way to use something like a neural network to perform automatic classification of tables into layout/non-layout with high accuracy, given an initial training set
  403. # [10:38] <jgraham> What I don't know is what you would use as inputs.
  404. # [10:39] <jgraham> (an interesting consequence of that is that it would be effectively impossible to specify the lgorithm other than by "use this neural network")
  405. # [10:39] <Philip`> By "neural network" do you mean "magic box"? :-)
  406. # [10:39] <jgraham> *algorithm
  407. # [10:40] <jgraham> Philip`: Well I mean "neural network" al;though that is rather close to "magic box", yes
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  410. # [10:43] <Philip`> If you had a lot of training data and a large set of characteristics, I guess you could easily find which characteristics are correlated with data/layout tables, and then I guess any supervised learning algorithm would give you some kind of prediction function
  411. # [10:43] <Philip`> (I've no idea if neural nets would be better/worse than any other approach)
  412. # [10:44] <Philip`> (except that I think you really wouldn't want an algorithm in the spec to be a definition of a neural net)
  413. # [10:44] <Philip`> (just because it'd be clearly insane)
  414. # [10:44] <jgraham> Can the characteristics be boolean things? I had a vauge notion they had to be continuous variables?
  415. # [10:44] <jgraham> Maybe I should just FGI
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  419. # [10:47] <Philip`> jgraham: Boolean variables are just continuous variables that only ever happen to be in one of two states :-)
  420. # [10:47] <Philip`> I can't think of any particularly fundamental difference
  421. # [10:48] <jgraham> You might not get convergence or something
  422. # [10:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: when the tryserver Minefield/HTML5 parsing builds crashed for you on Linux, did they work on the second run and only crashed on the first run?
  423. # [10:50] <Philip`> If I remember correctly (aided by Wikipedia), in simple neural nets you have a perceptron which applies a threshold function to a weighted some of its input values, to get a boolean output
  424. # [10:50] <Philip`> and then you connect a load of them together, and do some learning
  425. # [10:50] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@li30-216.members.linode.com) ("Caught signal 6, Aborted")
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  427. # [10:52] <jgraham> The wikipedia page on this does not reallyt take universal accessibillity to heart. It it hard to understand :)
  428. # [10:52] <Philip`> Wikipedia describes some condition for convergence which sounds it probably should sometimes be true even if all your inputs are boolean
  429. # [10:53] <Philip`> jgraham: Try http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network
  430. # [10:53] <jgraham> Philip`: But that is just wrong
  431. # [10:54] <Philip`> jgraham: But it's accessible
  432. # [10:54] <jgraham> The truth? You cna't handle the truth
  433. # [11:01] <jgraham> So it seems like a viable project
  434. # [11:02] * Philip` notes that he is not exactly an expert on AI
  435. # [11:02] <jgraham> I guess it would be interesting to do something like a principal component analysis on the result to see what the primary indicators of layout tables are
  436. # [11:02] <Philip`> (nor, indeed, on anything else)
  437. # [11:03] <Philip`> I did sit through two AI lecture courses, but decided pretty early on that I wasn't going to answer any of the exam questions about it :-)
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  440. # [11:05] <Philip`> jgraham: Why do anything that complicated, rather than simply computing a table of probabilities like p(table is data table | given has property P) for all Ps you can think of and then looking for the extreme ones?
  441. # [11:05] <Philip`> s/given/table/
  442. # [11:06] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe the point is to find the independent characteristics, rather than "table has > 4 columns", "table has > 5 columns", "table has > 6 columns", ... all being high-probability cases
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  445. # [11:12] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes, I think that is the idea
  446. # [11:13] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  448. # [11:24] <Philip`> The hard part would be accurately classifying ten thousand tables to use as training data and for verification
  449. # [11:24] <Philip`> or maybe much more than that would be needed, given how high a proportion will be layout tables
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  452. # [11:38] <jgraham> hsivonen: Sorry I missed your question earlier. No, they crashed any time the profile dialog was shown before the browser proper started
  453. # [11:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. thanks
  454. # [11:38] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  455. # [11:38] <hsivonen> I'm still clueless when it comes to the reason of the crashes
  456. # [11:38] <jgraham> Philip`: Doesn't seem too hard. It is generally pretty easy to classify the tables and it would parallelise easilly
  457. # [11:47] <Philip`> jgraham: s/ten thousand/a million/ - now it's much harder :-)
  458. # [11:47] <jgraham> Philip`: OK fair enough. But you're just guessing anyay
  459. # [11:47] <jgraham> *anyway
  460. # [11:48] <Philip`> jgraham: Indeed
  461. # [11:48] <Philip`> jgraham: Probably the main concern is that there would have to be enough data tables in the sample, which might mean the sample has to be huge
  462. # [11:49] * Joins: slaaya (i=Slaayaax@ftth-238-119.hive.is)
  463. # [11:49] <jgraham> Is there a command that is the opposite of diff?
  464. # [11:49] <slaaya> is this about rwifi
  465. # [11:49] <Philip`> (It's no good having a heuristic which says "given a table T, it is a layout table" even if it's right 99% of the time, because it's important that it's right for 99% of data tables too)
  466. # [11:49] <slaaya> ?
  467. # [11:50] <Philip`> jgraham: Like something that shows which lines are shared between files?
  468. # [11:50] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes
  469. # [11:50] <slaaya> if i a connect a router to a tv atenna would it work
  470. # [11:50] <slaaya> to boost its signal?
  471. # [11:50] <slaaya> with dd-wrt
  472. # [11:51] <jgraham> slaaya: This is almost certianly the wrong channel. What you suggest seems unlikely to work on general physical grounds through
  473. # [11:51] <slaaya> why though?
  474. # [11:51] <slaaya> if i a solder it the cable that goes to the tv atennna
  475. # [11:51] <slaaya> why would it not work?
  476. # [11:52] <jgraham> Because the design of antennae is wavelength-specific
  477. # [11:52] <slaaya> humm ok
  478. # [11:52] <jgraham> and the power output of the router is fixed
  479. # [11:52] <slaaya> so i cant just use antenna
  480. # [11:52] <slaaya> any
  481. # [11:52] <slaaya> its a vhf atenna
  482. # [11:52] <slaaya> i mean just using the metal as a booster in it
  483. # [11:53] <Philip`> jgraham: diff -C99999 a b | grep '^ '
  484. # [11:54] <jgraham> Philip`: Ah, clever, thanks
  485. # [12:00] <Philip`> jgraham: I consider it to be a disgusting hack, rather than clever
  486. # [12:10] <jgraham> Well, however you want to put it it seems to do something mildly useful
  487. # [12:10] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
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  500. # [13:03] <Philip`> Is it safe to use xml:base in XHTML?
  501. # [13:03] <Philip`> like, no browser is planning to remove support for it or anything?
  502. # [13:03] <zcorpan_> Philip`: does webkit support it?
  503. # [13:03] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Don't know
  504. # [13:04] <zcorpan_> i think it doesn't
  505. # [13:04] <Philip`> I suppose that's a bit of a pain
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  515. # [13:51] * gsnedders tries to remember if he actually met danbri at TPAC
  516. # [13:51] * gsnedders met too many people to remember who half them are :P
  517. # [13:53] <karlcow> gsnedders: probably. He was at TPAC. Did you talk with him is different. ;) http://flickr.com/photos/bblfish/2290417713/
  518. # [13:53] <gsnedders> karlcow: I am aware he was there :P
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  536. # [15:36] * gsnedders finds more and more mistakes with uncertainties in his physics project. yay.
  537. # [15:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: If it is any comfort, getting uncertainties calculations right is really really hard
  538. # [15:42] <jgraham> And then they are usually not htat helpful because they don't tell you about systematic error
  539. # [15:42] <gsnedders> I've already concluded my results are useless because of the uncertainties, so adding more uncertainties on to it makes little difference
  540. # [15:43] <karlcow> :D
  541. # [15:44] <gsnedders> (And my previous physics teacher wondered why I was applying to do _theoretical_ physics.)
  542. # [15:45] <jgraham> There is a plot somewhere of the best-measured value of the speed of light against time. There are large steps, much bigger than the calculated error bars, corresponding to the development of new *techniques* to measure the speed of light
  543. # [15:46] <karlcow> :) calibration inferno
  544. # [15:46] <Philip`> jgraham: How do you know it's not due to the speed of light changing?
  545. # [15:47] * karlcow wonders if Philip` is talking about the travel of light between two elements or the speed of light as a constant.
  546. # [15:48] <Philip`> Maybe light is scared of new measurement technologies, and slows down / speeds up a bit
  547. # [15:48] <Lachy> Philip`, because astronomers, astrophysists, or whatever, can look back in time by looking at distant stars and galaxies and make measurements
  548. # [15:48] <karlcow> Lachy: there are more steps doing that
  549. # [15:48] <Lachy> karlcow, of course.
  550. # [15:48] <karlcow> that I was calling calibration inferno
  551. # [15:48] <Lachy> I don't know what that means
  552. # [15:50] <karlcow> first you try to have a black body spectrum in laboratory, then closest bright stars not too hot with a similar temperature or close from your black body spectrum (to avoid interstellar dust), then more distant stars, then close galaxies, etc etc.
  553. # [15:50] <karlcow> each time in the process you had a layer of indirection and errors.
  554. # [15:51] <karlcow> but that's part of the game
  555. # [15:51] <karlcow> which is quite fun
  556. # [15:51] * gsnedders maintains his position that astrophysics is crazy
  557. # [15:51] <karlcow> ;)
  558. # [15:51] <karlcow> maybe it's why I like it
  559. # [15:51] <gsnedders> hehe
  560. # [15:51] <karlcow> and I like the Web too ;)
  561. # [15:51] <jgraham> It's no more crazy than ECMAScript
  562. # [15:51] <karlcow> both crazy and imperfect
  563. # [15:52] <jgraham> Actually that probably isn't true
  564. # [15:53] <Philip`> Space is all fake anyway - it's just a painted dome with some lights hanging off it
  565. # [15:53] <Philip`> I've seen The Truman Show, I know how these things work
  566. # [15:53] <Lachy> LOL
  567. # [15:53] <karlcow> Philip`: that! is reasonable :)
  568. # [15:55] <Lachy> there was a nice simple video I saw on YouTube once that explained in laymens terms how we know the speed of light has remained constant.
  569. # [15:57] <gsnedders> hmm…
  570. # [15:57] * gsnedders is trying to search his tweets for " and failing
  571. # [15:58] * beowulf is now known as hitman2victor
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  574. # [16:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: couldn't rel be case-sensitive in general but various keywords are case insensitive?
  575. # [16:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I guess triple generation could be case-sensitive
  576. # [16:05] * hsivonen #ifdefs out XLink autolink and SVG onload in text/html
  577. # [16:05] <annevk2> zcorpan, yes, that would be possible
  578. # [16:05] <jgraham> Er, an attribute that is sometimes casesensitive seems like a whole heap of badness waiting to happen
  579. # [16:05] <annevk2> zcorpan, see e.g. xhr.open(method, ...)
  580. # [16:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: possibly, but a smaller heap than CURIEs
  581. # [16:06] <annevk2> it's not verry pretty, no
  582. # [16:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yes. But I can't see authors getting it right, ever
  583. # [16:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: can you see authors getting RDFa right?
  584. # [16:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think my fellings on that are well known :)
  585. # [16:07] <jgraham> *feelings
  586. # [16:07] <annevk2> nope
  587. # [16:07] <jgraham> annevk2: Was tha directed at hsivonen or me?
  588. # [16:08] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  589. # [16:08] <annevk2> I can't see authors getting RDFa right
  590. # [16:09] <annevk2> they already mess up <meta name=keywords>
  591. # [16:09] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  592. # [16:09] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  593. # [16:10] <Philip`> Authors don't need to know how to get RDFa right - they can just copy-and-paste from examples produced by experts (like with Creative Commons)
  594. # [16:10] <annevk2> deeply technical QA and developers at Opera don't get namespaces right
  595. # [16:10] <annevk2> in fact, we have a bug to this very day for several years and the only persons that have encountered it so far are in this channel
  596. # [16:10] <karlcow> a lot of possible jokes about opera just now ;) I will avoid
  597. # [16:11] <annevk2> hsivonen wasted a day of his life explaining the PFWG how namespaces work
  598. # [16:11] <gsnedders> Peh! Nobody uses Opera!
  599. # [16:11] <annevk2> it's just not gonna fly
  600. # [16:11] <Philip`> karlcow: In this channel, we prefer the jokes to be about namespaces
  601. # [16:11] * Joins: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  602. # [16:12] <Philip`> and then we consider them to be facts rather than jokes :-)
  603. # [16:12] <gsnedders> annevk2: What if we put wings on it, and tell it to not fly to close to the sun or the sea, for fear of wrecking the wings?
  604. # [16:13] <karlcow> get the beat with names paces
  605. # [16:13] * gsnedders wonders how many people are confused by the latter half of that
  606. # [16:13] <annevk2> gsnedders, they did, it's called XML
  607. # [16:13] <gsnedders> reversed(list(references.finditer(node.text))) strikes me as kinda stupid
  608. # [16:14] <karlcow> Philip`: it is why it is not very funny ;) people are far too serious in this "real world" channel.
  609. # [16:14] <annevk2> surely the world has heard of Icarus?
  610. # [16:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: Why?
  611. # [16:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: Having to cast it to list. I'd expect reversed to work on iterables, not sequences
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  613. # [16:15] * gsnedders can see why it only works with sequences though
  614. # [16:15] <Philip`> A modern-day Icarus would likely come undone by flying into power cables, or being intercepted by fighter jets for straying into reserved airspace
  615. # [16:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: def count():n= 1; yield n; n+=1
  616. # [16:15] <karlcow> annevk2: Icarus, even if he falls, had a dream and it's why no matter the morality of the story, it is the dream which is pushing people :)))
  617. # [16:16] <gsnedders> The moral of Icarus: humans can't fly.
  618. # [16:16] <karlcow> serious people die and are forgotten, poets and dreamers survive.
  619. # [16:16] <karlcow> gsnedders: mwahaha
  620. # [16:16] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  621. # [16:17] <jgraham> karlcow: Not sure that is really true. Euler isn't noted for being a good party guest
  622. # [16:17] <annevk2> Einstein on the other hand... oh wait
  623. # [16:17] <karlcow> CQFD = Ce Qu'il Fallait Démontrer. jgraham is a serious person :)
  624. # [16:18] <karlcow> http://z.about.com/d/physics/1/0/C/0/-/-/Einstein_tongue.jpg
  625. # [16:18] <gsnedders> Démontrer?
  626. # [16:18] * hsivonen listened to http://www.cybercodeur.net/conferences/parisweb2006/22092006/hq/ogg/08-karl_dubost-enrichissons_nos_relations.ogg
  627. # [16:18] <annevk2> gsnedders, demonstrated afaict
  628. # [16:19] <karlcow> hsivonen: ahaha. I'm talking about women and train and encounters
  629. # [16:19] * gsnedders has a reputation of being mad and a girl among his friends, so guesses he falls out of the category of being serious
  630. # [16:19] <hsivonen> it seems that the same microformat & RDFa & profile arguments have gone round and round for years
  631. # [16:19] <gsnedders> annevk2: Ah, that makes sense
  632. # [16:19] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@65.210.82.235)
  633. # [16:19] <karlcow> I'm also talking about infobesity
  634. # [16:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "* hsivonen #ifdefs out XLink autolink and SVG onload in text/html" - for gecko, for security?
  635. # [16:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in the Gecko version of the HTML5 parser, mainly for simplicity
  636. # [16:20] <jgraham> karlcow: Certianly I doubt I will be remembered.
  637. # [16:20] <annevk2> XLink autolink?
  638. # [16:21] <annevk2> and SVG onload is that the load event for each fricking element that is inserted? I don't really like that
  639. # [16:21] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-93-186-208.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  640. # [16:21] <hsivonen> annevk2: it seems that XLink has a feature where setting a couple of attributes stop the load and load a new URL in the browsing context
  641. # [16:21] <zcorpan> o_O
  642. # [16:21] <hsivonen> annevk2: SVG onload is a synchronous event firing when </svg> is seen
  643. # [16:22] <annevk2> oh yeah, XLink is pretty advanced
  644. # [16:22] <annevk2> I would strongly encourage you to only support the bits actually needed to make references from SVG and not support any of the additional stuff
  645. # [16:23] <annevk2> e.g. not have any actual XLink support
  646. # [16:23] <hsivonen> annevk2: I care about parity between the HTML and XML tree builders, but personally, I'd be OK with zapping XLink autolinks from XML as well
  647. # [16:24] <annevk2> I don't think they should work in XML
  648. # [16:24] * annevk2 was talking about DOM support
  649. # [16:25] <hsivonen> without SVG onload, </script> is the only 'pipeline hazard' that require the concrete tree insertions, the tree builder and the tokenizer to sync up
  650. # [16:26] <annevk2> SVG onload for </svg> would make sense if we allow <svg> as root, but I'm not sure if that's workable
  651. # [16:26] <hsivonen> but it's defined to fire for nested </svg>, too
  652. # [16:26] <annevk2> hmm ok, "SVG SUCKS"
  653. # [16:27] <hsivonen> annevk2: speaking of which, 'daddy' has a white background box in the snapshot of WebKit that NNW uses (obscuring some text)
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  655. # [16:36] <yael> hello, I have a question about localStorage. Can I ask it on this channel?
  656. # [16:36] * Quits: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-86-152-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk) (Client Quit)
  657. # [16:36] <annevk2> just ask
  658. # [16:36] <jgraham> yael: You can ask it on any channel, but this one has a particularly high chance of giving a useful answer
  659. # [16:36] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-86-152-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk)
  660. # [16:37] * zcorpan has found a way to inject arbitrary attributes that ie would pick up (not in ie8 mode) when roundtripped through html5lib, but hasn't found a way to make script run
  661. # [16:37] <jgraham> zcorpan: Do you mean through the sanitizer
  662. # [16:37] <yael> What is the impact of setting document.domain on localStorage? Should the browser stop using the localStorage for the current domain and start using the localStorage of the parent?
  663. # [16:37] <zcorpan> yeah... although i haven't actually tested with the sanitizer
  664. # [16:38] <zcorpan> <br title=``foo>
  665. # [16:38] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  666. # [16:38] <annevk2> yael, document.domain does not affect localStorage
  667. # [16:39] <annevk2> if it did the spec would say so
  668. # [16:39] <annevk2> document.domain only affects a limited number of APIs
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  671. # [16:40] <yael> annevk2: thank you. :-)
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  673. # [16:46] <zcorpan> jgraham: <head><meta charset=utf-8><br title=`><xmp>`><script>alert(1)</script></xmp>
  674. # [16:48] * zcorpan wonders why '<head>' is serialized
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  680. # [17:12] <zcorpan> hmm maybe the spec should require quotes for <, `, and unicode whitespace in attribute values
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  705. # [18:58] <virtuelv> hendry: yt?
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  714. # [19:23] <karlcow> gsnedders: http://twitter.com/kidehen/statuses/1257796237
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  717. # [19:45] <gsnedders> karlcow: awesome.
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  748. # [21:36] <webben> Is it well-known already that the "whatwg Archives" link at http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org takes you to a Forbidden page?
  749. # [21:36] <Philip`> webben: It's now http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org , apparently because Dreamhost is stupid
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  754. # [21:48] <virtuelv> Hixie: should html5 cover encoding of form data in POST requests?
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  756. # [21:49] <webben> Philip`: ta
  757. # [21:49] <virtuelv> or, rather, it does, and I missed it on first glance
  758. # [21:50] <webben> hmm the links on that page are all broken too :(
  759. # [21:50] <webben> hurray at least the search still works
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  765. # [22:17] <gsnedders> What are the most common assumptions that people make about others?
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  768. # [22:31] <Philip`> gsnedders: That they exist
  769. # [22:34] <Dashiva> CURIEs in @rel are not a problem. We have always been at war with Eurasia.
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  783. # Session Close: Sat Feb 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)