/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 28 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  4. # [00:08] <heycam> i suppose http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab wasn't minted in 1999
  5. # [00:09] <gsnedders> heycam: Why, of course not! That might be expected!
  6. # [00:09] <heycam> :)
  7. # [00:10] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  8. # [00:10] <heycam> and yes i can see why they might want to use that URI, but it does sort of break the expectation of the year being relevant to when it was minted
  9. # [00:10] <heycam> it's a useful expectation since it helps you narrow down the range of years to guess-and-check when you can't remember the correct uri :)
  10. # [00:11] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  11. # [00:12] <Hixie> the whole concept of putting dates in permanent urls is ridiculous
  12. # [00:12] <Hixie> almost as ridiculous as the concept of permanent urls as identifiers!
  13. # [00:12] * Hixie ducks
  14. # [00:12] * gsnedders cows
  15. # [00:13] * Hixie duckers
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  18. # [00:15] <heycam> i can reliably remember the svg, xhtml and xslt namespace uris, but that's it
  19. # [00:15] <heycam> the xml one i have particular difficulty with...
  20. # [00:15] <Hixie> i'm especially proud of the xbl one
  21. # [00:16] <heycam> what is it, /ns/xbl or something?
  22. # [00:16] <Hixie> yup. so awesome you guessed it without knowing it.
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  24. # [00:16] <heycam> i knew it at one stage, but had forgotten
  25. # [00:16] <Hixie> hehe
  26. # [00:17] <heycam> i think you still need special dispensation to use http://www.w3.org/ns/blah namespace uris
  27. # [00:17] <Hixie> you need special dispensation for /yyyy/blah urls too
  28. # [00:17] <Hixie> /yyyy/mm/blah are the only ones you can mint without agreement
  29. # [00:17] <Hixie> at least in theory
  30. # [00:17] <Hixie> last i chekced
  31. # [00:17] <heycam> oh, so even less memorable :)
  32. # [00:18] <heycam> i don't have difficult remembering java package/class names, on the other hand
  33. # [00:18] <Hixie> indeed!
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  35. # [00:18] <heycam> import java.1999.awt.Button
  36. # [00:21] <heycam> Hixie, so i see that you noted in some forum recently that you weren't tracking public-html mails and that was up to someone else
  37. # [00:21] <heycam> since i've sent a few things there that haven't been dealt with yet, should i instead have filed bugzilla entries or something?
  38. # [00:22] <heycam> (i think those particular ones are on your issues list, but i was just wondering about procedure)
  39. # [00:22] <Hixie> in theory the chairs are supposed (i am told) to tell me what to respond to
  40. # [00:22] <Hixie> in practice i respond to anything that is a comment on the spec that i don't think is inane
  41. # [00:22] <Hixie> which doesn't actually include that much
  42. # [00:22] <Hixie> but that's another story
  43. # [00:22] <Hixie> what was your feedback? i can see if it's in the folders
  44. # [00:22] <heycam> i did check, and i saw a few things of mine there, so i'm sure it's fine
  45. # [00:23] <heycam> just wanted to know what i *should* have been doing
  46. # [00:23] <Hixie> officially, filing a bug is the way to ensure that i don't miss your feedback
  47. # [00:23] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@vpn-118-138-224-6.its.monash.edu.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  48. # [00:24] <Hixie> or asking the chairs to track it
  49. # [00:24] * Hixie waits for heycam to return
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  51. # [00:24] <Hixie> officially, filing a bug is the way to ensure that i don't miss your feedback
  52. # [00:24] <Hixie> or asking the chairs to track it
  53. # [00:25] <heycam> k
  54. # [00:25] <heycam> (wireless is dodgy here)
  55. # [00:25] <Hixie> in practice if you send feedback i'll see it and track it
  56. # [00:25] <Hixie> i do read every e-mail on public-html, the only ones i don't add to my pile are the ones that are either rehashing old ground, making proposals that are prosterous on their face, trolling, ignorant, etc
  57. # [00:26] <Hixie> sometimes something falls through the cracks though
  58. # [00:26] <Hixie> so if you want to make sure, either ask me or file a bug
  59. # [00:26] <heycam> ack
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  61. # [00:28] <Hixie> bbiab
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  76. # [02:01] <othermaciej> I am curious what is up with this RDFa issue
  77. # [02:01] <othermaciej> why so much sudden cross-list drama?
  78. # [02:01] <othermaciej> is it something I can safely ignore?
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  135. # [07:32] <zcorpan_> annevk: "HTTP is in fact still restricted to a very limited character that can do only slightly more than US-ASCII." - something's missing after 'character'
  136. # [07:33] <karlcow> set
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  138. # [07:52] <Hixie> HTTP supports a character _set_ other than the first 128 characters in Unicode?
  139. # [07:52] <Hixie> huh
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  141. # [07:54] <zcorpan_> Hixie: isn't iso-8859-1 both a character set and encoding?
  142. # [07:54] <Hixie> yes, but does http support -1?
  143. # [07:55] <zcorpan_> dunno :)
  144. # [07:55] <annevk3> hmm, is this fallout from my blogpost?
  145. # [07:56] <zcorpan_> yes
  146. # [07:56] * Hixie looks to see if you blogged :-)
  147. # [07:56] * annevk3 just arrived in a Nikko
  148. # [07:56] <annevk3> s/a//
  149. # [07:56] <zcorpan_> you rrived in a Nikko?
  150. # [07:57] <Hixie> btw fwiw my understanding is that utf-16 actually isn't a good character encoding internally either
  151. # [07:57] <annevk3> in Nikko, small place outside Tokyo
  152. # [07:57] <annevk3> Hixie, I covered that
  153. # [07:58] * annevk3 should go someplace rather than talking about this
  154. # [08:00] <karlcow> /kick annevk3
  155. # [08:01] <Hixie> annevk3: before you go
  156. # [08:01] <Hixie> i'd be interested in people's feedback on the way i did author-facing DOM documentation:
  157. # [08:01] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#htmlcollection
  158. # [08:02] <Hixie> comes after each idl block in section 2 right now
  159. # [08:02] <Hixie> i'm planning on styling it a bit
  160. # [08:03] <Hixie> also in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#url-decomposition-attributes
  161. # [08:04] <annevk3> looks good
  162. # [08:04] <Hixie> cool
  163. # [08:04] <Hixie> when you get back examine the styles i'll come up with an let me know what you think :-)
  164. # [08:06] <zcorpan_> Hixie: are you going to add classes to everything that says which classes of products a piece of text applies to?
  165. # [08:06] <Hixie> no
  166. # [08:06] <zcorpan_> so what's the plan? :)
  167. # [08:06] <Hixie> i plan to have one class
  168. # [08:07] <Hixie> "impl"
  169. # [08:07] <zcorpan_> ah
  170. # [08:07] <Hixie> which hides stuff that authors might not want to see on first blush
  171. # [08:07] <Hixie> i've actually already marked up everything in sections 1 and 2
  172. # [08:07] <Hixie> here let me add a quick alt style sheet
  173. # [08:10] * Hixie tries to find a browser that actually supports alternative tyle sheets set from <Style>
  174. # [08:10] <Hixie> sigh
  175. # [08:10] <zcorpan_> doesn't firefox?
  176. # [08:10] <Hixie> apparently not
  177. # [08:10] <zcorpan_> hmm i thought it did before
  178. # [08:10] <Hixie> oh wait
  179. # [08:11] <Hixie> i have to regen the spec
  180. # [08:11] <Hixie> duh
  181. # [08:11] <Hixie> <-- idiot
  182. # [08:11] * zcorpan_ modified the style sheet in view source
  183. # [08:11] * zcorpan_ loves that feature
  184. # [08:13] <Hixie> oh dear, webkit just applies all these style sheets
  185. # [08:13] <Hixie> sigh again
  186. # [08:13] <zcorpan_> i think that's what opera does, too, and is correct per html4 iirc :)
  187. # [08:14] <Hixie> that's not clear
  188. # [08:14] <Hixie> but anyway
  189. # [08:14] <Hixie> html5 says otherwise!
  190. # [08:14] * gavin____ is now known as gavin
  191. # [08:14] <zcorpan_> indeed
  192. # [08:14] <Hixie> ok well anyway
  193. # [08:14] <Hixie> style sheet should be there now
  194. # [08:14] <Hixie> it makes section 2 quite short!
  195. # [08:18] <zcorpan_> nice
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  198. # [08:23] <zcorpan_> maybe .impl should be highlighted in some way by default: not only is it stuff that authors *don't* want to see, but it's also what implementors are specifically looking for
  199. # [08:24] <Hixie> some of the .impl stuff is individual words in the middle of paragraphs
  200. # [08:24] <Hixie> i don't want to add yet more confusing colours
  201. # [08:24] <Hixie> it's already going to be pretty confusing
  202. # [08:28] <zcorpan_> Hixie: parts of the ToC is broken with the author style sheet
  203. # [08:28] <Hixie> yeah i haven't updated the toc script to delete bits that are in the author sections yet
  204. # [08:28] <Hixie> er
  205. # [08:28] <Hixie> impl sections
  206. # [08:37] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i added another style sheet to highlight the impl bits
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  217. # [09:28] <Hixie> zcorpan_: ok, toc updates too now
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  219. # [09:32] <zcorpan_> Hixie: sweet
  220. # [09:34] * zcorpan_ ponders whether 1.7.1 How to read this specification applies to authors
  221. # [09:35] <Hixie> yes
  222. # [09:41] <zcorpan_> Hixie: hmm, i'm thinking about the order of the subsections in 2.4 Common microsyntaxes -- in particular i think it would be useful to have boolean attributes and enumerated attributes next to each other and highlight that e.g. contenteditable is not a boolean attribute
  223. # [09:41] <Hixie> good call. file a bug?
  224. # [09:41] <zcorpan_> ok
  225. # [09:41] <Hixie> thanks!
  226. # [09:41] <Hixie> i want to have as few edits in this next checkin as possible
  227. # [09:41] <Hixie> it's gonna be huge enough as it is
  228. # [09:43] <zcorpan_> despite being only an editorial checkin, it will probably be one of the most useful checkins
  229. # [09:43] <Hixie> wtf i'm getting 500ms pings to my isp
  230. # [09:44] <Hixie> zcorpan_: it's including a lot of new text in the form of these dom overview bits
  231. # [09:44] <zcorpan_> Hixie: but those are still "editorial", are they not?
  232. # [09:45] <Hixie> yup
  233. # [09:45] <Hixie> they count as notes
  234. # [09:45] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  235. # [09:45] * Hixie stops the three video downloads that were killing his connection
  236. # [09:46] <zcorpan_> downloading porn while doing work?
  237. # [09:47] <Hixie> downloading the dilbert animated series from iTunes
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  239. # [09:51] <zcorpan_> Hixie: hmm. the links in the idl are broken in the author view
  240. # [09:51] <Hixie> yup
  241. # [09:51] <Hixie> dunno what to do about that
  242. # [09:52] <zcorpan_> maybe the author notes and ua requirements could be interleaved?
  243. # [09:53] <Hixie> how would that work, e.g., for the url decomposition attributes?
  244. # [09:53] <Hixie> also, that wouldn't actually solve the problem
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  248. # [10:10] <Hixie> oooh, new top gear. i missed the start of the season.
  249. # [10:20] <john_fallows> Hixie: just reading through the latest spec draft and noticed a few things...
  250. # [10:21] <john_fallows> descriptions for onopen, onmessage and onerror still use "bubbling" in the language even though EventSource is not an element - is that still accurate?
  251. # [10:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: I just read your big thread with Sam on www-archive from earlier in the month
  252. # [10:21] <othermaciej> "Moving past last call for HTML5"
  253. # [10:22] <othermaciej> why is it that reading it feels like watching an elaborate kabuki dance?
  254. # [10:22] <Hixie> john_fallows: technically yes, though it's pretty much meaningless since it's not a DOM node anymore
  255. # [10:22] <Hixie> john_fallows: but i use the same terminology everywhere for consistency, and it is technically correct
  256. # [10:23] <john_fallows> okay - just checking because at first it seemed like an oversight
  257. # [10:23] <Hixie> though come to think of it, DOM3 Events might need to explicitly talk about event dispatch on non-nodes
  258. # [10:23] <Hixie> john_fallows: understood
  259. # [10:23] <john_fallows> on a different note: WebSocket authentication...
  260. # [10:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: which parts in particular?
  261. # [10:24] <john_fallows> saw that auth headers and cookies can be sent now, cool.
  262. # [10:24] <Hixie> john_fallows: yeah. not sure exactly how that's gonna work, but in theory it can
  263. # [10:24] <john_fallows> but there was also a note previously with a TODO for status code 401
  264. # [10:24] <john_fallows> now 401 would fail the connection, right?
  265. # [10:24] <Hixie> yeah i decided to punt on that for this version
  266. # [10:25] <john_fallows> so auth would require an explicit preflight?
  267. # [10:25] <Hixie> it's require headers in the original connection, yeah. which probably isn't really possible to set up at this point.
  268. # [10:25] <Hixie> though if you websocket to the http port, you'll send cookies
  269. # [10:25] <Hixie> so you can use cookies
  270. # [10:26] <Hixie> if you set them ahead ahead of time
  271. # [10:26] <Hixie> set them up, even
  272. # [10:26] <othermaciej> Hixie: a lot of it sounded to me like he wanted something that he wasn't clearly coming out and saying
  273. # [10:26] <john_fallows> right, so preflight over regular http, possibly get a 401 for that, ensure the session cookie is setup, then make the WebSocket connection (with auth) ?
  274. # [10:26] <othermaciej> I guess he made some specific requests at the end but they seemed underwhelming relative to the build-up
  275. # [10:27] <othermaciej> was weird to read
  276. # [10:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah it is still pretty unclear to me how he intends to declare consensus
  277. # [10:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: he never really answered that
  278. # [10:27] <Hixie> john_fallows: well typically cookie auth doesn't involve 401s, but yes
  279. # [10:27] <othermaciej> it seems clear to me that we can't have unanimity on everything, and while the W3C PRocess says that consensus is not unanimity, it doesn't make very clear how it differs
  280. # [10:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: there are topics where as far as i can tell we have people with mutually exclusive opinions
  281. # [10:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: so unanimity is impossible
  282. # [10:28] <john_fallows> Hixie: sure (possibly 401) :-)
  283. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I did find one interesting idea in the mail on www-archive, which is the idea of removing document conformance requirements
  284. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I wonder how many controversial issues that would take off the table
  285. # [10:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: e.g. some people want profile="" out, some people want profile="" in. There's no middle ground there.
  286. # [10:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: i would be very strongly opposed to that, so, none. :-)
  287. # [10:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: that would be a new controversial issue
  288. # [10:30] <Hixie> yeah
  289. # [10:30] <othermaciej> at first reading it sounded crazy to me
  290. # [10:30] <othermaciej> but I thought, it doesn't matter if alt is mandatory if there are no conformance requirements
  291. # [10:30] <Hixie> can you imagine, if we allow <b><i></b></i>, how many people would hunt us down personally to shot us?
  292. # [10:30] <othermaciej> it doesn't matter if summary is allowed
  293. # [10:30] <othermaciej> it doesn't matter if profile is allowed
  294. # [10:30] <Hixie> shoot
  295. # [10:30] <othermaciej> I do, however, think that some people would hate it
  296. # [10:30] <othermaciej> on the basis of that
  297. # [10:30] <Hixie> it would allow <blink>!
  298. # [10:30] <othermaciej> although using the word "allow" is prejudicial
  299. # [10:30] <Hixie> we'd be forever known as the working group that allowed <blink>
  300. # [10:31] <othermaciej> the spec does not allow or disallow, it just describes what happens when you do it
  301. # [10:31] <othermaciej> (in the hypothetical world of no document conformance requirements)
  302. # [10:31] <Hixie> if ou don't disallow something, you tacitly or explicitly allow it
  303. # [10:31] <Hixie> anyway
  304. # [10:31] <Hixie> i don't see this as a path that leads to more consensus
  305. # [10:31] <othermaciej> I think it is true that document conformance requirements don't directly affect interoperability
  306. # [10:32] <Hixie> they affect validator interop
  307. # [10:32] <othermaciej> which is why they are more subjective, and thus more subject to debate
  308. # [10:32] <john_fallows> Hixie: do you want me to send feedback to the mailing list about large WebSocket frames and stream-based access instead of fully allocated buffer access?
  309. # [10:32] <Hixie> they don't affect browser interop (clearly, given 95% failure rates on the web)
  310. # [10:32] <othermaciej> they don't affect the ability of the document to work across different user agents
  311. # [10:32] <Hixie> john_fallows: i would hold off on that until we have websocket v1 implemented widely
  312. # [10:32] <othermaciej> validators only exist because there are document conformance requirements, so saying they exist for validator interop is circular
  313. # [10:33] <Hixie> john_fallows: you can though, if you want me to add it to the list of v2 features to look at later :-)
  314. # [10:33] <othermaciej> I do note that we've had almost no controversy over UA requirements, because most of the time they are essentially forced by reality
  315. # [10:34] <john_fallows> Hixie: haha - are any of the browser vendors prototyping WebSocket yet?
  316. # [10:34] <othermaciej> document conformance requirements however have no grounding in reality
  317. # [10:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: it is true that document conformance is a different issue than ua conformance
  318. # [10:34] <othermaciej> which is why people fight over them
  319. # [10:34] <othermaciej> whether or not we do anything based on this, I think it is an interesting insight
  320. # [10:34] <Hixie> john_fallows: don't think so
  321. # [10:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: i think there can be grounding in reality. it's language design, and language design can be grounded in reality.
  322. # [10:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: indeed many of the controversial points -- profile, summary, alt -- are what i perceive to be reality vs idealism issues
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  325. # [10:36] <othermaciej> well, one's impression of how different requirements for those features work in practice can certainly be more or less informed by reality
  326. # [10:36] <othermaciej> but I note that for all of those, no one debates what the UA requirements should be
  327. # [10:36] <othermaciej> they only debate whether they should be allowed, forbidden, mandatory, etc for authors
  328. # [10:36] <Hixie> people have debated whether browsers should expose existing summary="" attributes or not
  329. # [10:37] <othermaciej> I don't think anyone really strongly advocates that - it's just presented as an alternative to recommending <caption>
  330. # [10:37] <othermaciej> I do not believe it stems from a sincere desire to see summary="" exposed in visual UAs
  331. # [10:38] <Hixie> granted
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  333. # [10:40] <othermaciej> I personally do think validators (well, validator.nu style ones, not as much schema regurgitators) make useful QA tools
  334. # [10:41] <othermaciej> I always assumed that what they tell you about your document has to be defined by normative prose in the spec
  335. # [10:41] <Hixie> indeed
  336. # [10:41] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@118-93-186-208.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  337. # [10:41] <othermaciej> but now it is hard for me to produce a clear rationale for that
  338. # [10:41] <Hixie> it's psychological
  339. # [10:41] <Hixie> a validator can't act with authority if it doesn't have a spec to point to
  340. # [10:42] <Hixie> people ignore it and say "well that's not really the rule"
  341. # [10:42] <othermaciej> well, 'lint' and similar tools work fine without having a spec to point to
  342. # [10:42] <othermaciej> their position is not one of enforcing rules, but of helping you make your code better
  343. # [10:43] <othermaciej> or similarly gcc -W -Wall -Werror is not justified by any particular spec
  344. # [10:43] <othermaciej> but people find that more useful than gcc -ansi -pedantic, which is
  345. # [10:44] <Hixie> i think there are two reasons for that
  346. # [10:44] <othermaciej> (or at least I do)
  347. # [10:44] <Hixie> one is that the c spec sucks
  348. # [10:44] <Hixie> another is that programmers are far more likely to be technically competent and self-aware than html authors
  349. # [10:45] <othermaciej> sure, some educated html authors will want tools to help them get it right, a somewhat larger portion may be browbeaten into following rules, and a fair chunk cannot ever be forced to get it right
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  360. # [12:54] <Hixie> now done up to Content Models
  361. # [12:59] <Hixie> any preference on the commas near the "can be set" text in these domintro bits?
  362. # [13:00] <zcorpan_> looks fine with the comma
  363. # [13:02] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "the body element" uses <code> in the links but not in the definition
  364. # [13:02] <Hixie> oops
  365. # [13:05] <Hixie> fixed
  366. # [13:06] <Hixie> i don't understand why firefox shows the wrong status box
  367. # [13:06] <Hixie> i just noticed it always shows the color one
  368. # [13:10] <Hixie> oh i know why
  369. # [13:11] <Hixie> the status boxes won't work for the author version
  370. # [13:11] <Hixie> hmm
  371. # [13:11] <Hixie> how to fix this
  372. # [13:11] <annevk3> about:blank can never be conforming?
  373. # [13:12] <annevk3> (it always triggers quirks)
  374. # [13:12] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  375. # [13:12] <Hixie> about:config fires multiple parse errors
  376. # [13:12] <Hixie> and other errors
  377. # [13:12] <Hixie> e.g. no <title>
  378. # [13:13] <Hixie> ok so maybe just two errors and one "should" violation
  379. # [13:13] <zcorpan_> what's the "should"?
  380. # [13:13] <zcorpan_> empty body?
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  382. # [13:14] <Hixie> yeah
  383. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> in opera, about:blank and a non-quirky doctype and a <title> :)
  384. # [13:15] <zcorpan_> s/and/has/
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  386. # [13:16] <annevk3> for namedItem the name="" attribute case is not mentioned (and if that was intentional, for getElementsByName it is)
  387. # [13:20] <Hixie> um
  388. # [13:20] <Hixie> please to be more specific
  389. # [13:20] <Hixie> which namedItem?
  390. # [13:20] <annevk3> HTMLCollection
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  392. # [13:22] <Hixie> oops
  393. # [13:26] <Hixie> fixed
  394. # [13:31] <zcorpan_> Hixie: will you generate pdfs for the author view?
  395. # [13:31] <Hixie> my plan is to not do anything for a while
  396. # [13:32] <Hixie> and then see if i can convince g or philip to make static versions
  397. # [13:32] <Hixie> and if that works, i can generate pdfs from those
  398. # [13:38] <gsnedders> So, basically, your plan is to get somebody else to do it? :)
  399. # [13:38] <Hixie> crap, g is here!
  400. # [13:38] <Hixie> run away!!!
  401. # [13:38] <gsnedders> :P
  402. # [13:38] * Hixie hides
  403. # [13:41] * gsnedders has a fair number of items on his to-do list due to Hixie already
  404. # [13:42] * Hixie cracks the whip
  405. # [13:43] <gsnedders> That would be less scary if it weren't for the fact that one of my friends has decided to talk to me about BDSM.
  406. # [13:43] * Hixie retracts the whip quickly so as to remove any confusion
  407. # [13:44] <gsnedders> See, if I hadn't also been in that conversation I would've just laughed :P
  408. # [13:44] <gsnedders> Damned friends!
  409. # [13:48] * gsnedders goes back to wondering why they chose to talk to me
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  416. # [14:34] * rubys chuckles at the "kabuki dance" reference
  417. # [14:44] <gsnedders> I am so far behind on email this is really annoying.
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  420. # [15:10] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Feb/0309.html
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  424. # [15:27] <Philip`> Hmm, how odd, Google gave me an invalid URL in its search results
  425. # [15:28] <Philip`> <a href="http://%3c!--startfragment%20--%3eexample.com/etc" ...>
  426. # [15:29] <Philip`> (Opera says "illegal URL", Firefox says "server not found")
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  429. # [16:03] <partzufim> hey all, just wanted to show you this nice new domain http://www.toolongtobecatchy.com check it out
  430. # [16:03] * Quits: partzufim (n=xxx@bzq-79-176-49-99.red.bezeqint.net) (Client Quit)
  431. # [16:04] <gsnedders> That was _never_ spam.
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  446. # [17:41] <Dashiva> The RDFa thing is more and more like some bizarro world thread. "We wanted to support [fragments] so we made am ambiguous syntax with no way of disambiguating it in fragments."
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  453. # [19:03] <karlcow> Dashiva: mischaracterization ;) by using we in your sentence.
  454. # [19:04] * karlcow is going to more important matters: food, poetry and sun.
  455. # [19:04] <Dashiva> What is this "sun" thing you speak of?
  456. # [19:08] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's a JS/Java bridge in Mozilla - http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun
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  467. # [21:29] <sayrer> wow, I have no idea what this @rel thread is about
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  470. # [21:34] <Philip`> sayrer: It seems to just be about whether @rel is now a list of case-insensitive tokens or of URIs or of CURIEs, or something like that, with three different groups defining it in different ways and nobody wanting to budge from their position
  471. # [21:34] <sayrer> seriously?
  472. # [21:34] <Philip`> I think so
  473. # [21:35] <sayrer> that's what I thought they might be saying, but that would be crazy, so I thought I misunderstood
  474. # [21:35] <Philip`> (I could be wrong, since I've only skimmed over the few hundred emails about it)
  475. # [21:38] <Philip`> I guess they disagree that it's crazy
  476. # [21:40] <sayrer> yeah, if they continue to make XHTML coordination such a time sink, it seems like the easiest path for my work would be to leave XHTML5 for 2022
  477. # [21:41] <sayrer> excellent
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  479. # [21:43] <Philip`> Think of XHTML5 as X(HTML5), not as (XHTML)5 - it's actually entirely unrelated to XHTML, and is just a direct XML serialisation of HTML5, so there's no need to worry about what anyone else is doing with XHTML
  480. # [21:49] <Dashiva> Going by the HTML5/HTML 5 distinction, (XHTML)5 would be XHTML 5, wouldn't it?
  481. # [21:53] <Philip`> Dashiva: The HTML5/HTML 5 distinction exists only to shut up people who complain about the spec being biased to text/html and against XML
  482. # [21:53] <Philip`> Apart from that, nobody cares about the distinction or attempts to follow it
  483. # [21:54] <sayrer> it seems like dropping the XHTML coordination points would speed things along
  484. # [21:54] <sayrer> can't say that we get a lot of demand there, so I don't think our users are clamoring for us to do something in this area
  485. # [21:55] <Dashiva> sayrer: The RDFa-in-XHTML spec (or some related spec) defined @rel to be CURIEs, without the safe CURIE restriction. This makes some values ambiguous
  486. # [21:55] <sayrer> I wish them well :)
  487. # [21:55] <Philip`> Dashiva: Ambiguous with some other group that defined them to be URIs, do you mean?
  488. # [21:56] <sayrer> they seem to think that we MUST follow their spec
  489. # [21:56] <Philip`> (rather than being ambiguous with anything defined in HTML 5, which doesn't seem to care what you think they are because they're just strings?)
  490. # [21:56] <sayrer> I don't think they'll find that to be the case
  491. # [21:57] <Dashiva> sayrer: Not like they'll care ;)
  492. # [21:57] <Philip`> sayrer: It seems reasonable for them to think that having two specs defining incompatible behaviour for very similar formats is a problem that should be solved
  493. # [21:57] <sayrer> seems to me that criticism applies to XHTML and HTML
  494. # [21:57] <sayrer> and this is just fallout
  495. # [21:58] <Philip`> I'm not sure how the @rel issue is related to XHTML vs HTML
  496. # [21:58] <Philip`> Oh, except I suppose if @rel is a CURIE because then it doesn't make sense in HTML
  497. # [21:59] <Philip`> in which case it is an XHTML vs HTML thing
  498. # [21:59] <Philip`> and they should happily let themselves be steamrollered by HTML's requirements
  499. # [22:01] <Dashiva> I thought steamrolling was a trademark of XHTML2
  500. # [22:07] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware, the XHTML2 group aren't the ones who flagrantly violate other people's specs and say "I don't care what you say, we have to do it this way because we've got a billion users, tough luck"
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  502. # [22:12] <drostie> Are you kidding? That's basically the modus operandi of the XML developers in general.
  503. # [22:12] <Dashiva> Philip`: I suppose that's a different use of steamrolling. I limit it to forcing other people, not customizing your personal use.
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  505. # [22:13] <sayrer> Philip`: yes, the issue should be addressed in time. I don't think all deliverables need to be gated on its resolution.
  506. # [22:17] * Joins: olli (n=olafura@cm-84.215.102.68.getinternet.no)
  507. # [22:18] <Philip`> Dashiva: I mean it in the senses like "To overwhelm or suppress ruthlessly" and "bring to a specified state by overwhelming force or pressure", progressing strongly towards one's own goals by overriding any objections that get in the way
  508. # [22:18] <Hixie> Philip: it also exists to give me something to say when someone asks me the ridiculous question of whether there should be a space between the L and the 5
  509. # [22:22] <drostie> Hixie: why not just say "there should be TWO spaces between the L and the 5" ...?
  510. # [22:22] <drostie> ridiculous questions deserve ridiculous answers ^_^
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  516. # [22:51] <Dashiva> drostie forgot that multiple whitespace leads to discussions about normalizing whitespace :)
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  518. # [22:53] <Philip`> Can I write HTML&#x000B;5?
  519. # [22:56] <drostie> Philip`: I think it should be a non-breaking space, making it HTML&#00A0;5 . ^_^
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  527. # Session Close: Sun Mar 01 00:00:00 2009

The end :)