/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 03 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] <Hixie> but beyond that
  4. # [00:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: Because you can't write good optimized code?
  5. # [00:07] * gsnedders ducks
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  11. # [00:07] <Hixie> well i know that too
  12. # [00:07] <Philip`> Because the web platform is actually a pretty rubbish development environment?
  13. # [00:07] <Hixie> i mean, what exactly is the slow part
  14. # [00:07] <Hixie> Philip`: clearly
  15. # [00:07] <heycam> how come updateOffsetTops is passed an argument at one point, but the function doesn't use it?
  16. # [00:07] <Philip`> Hixie: Have you tried running it in a profiler?
  17. # [00:07] <Philip`> (Does Venkman still work and have a profiler?)
  18. # [00:07] <gsnedders> That'd be logical, so I'd assume not.
  19. # [00:07] <Philip`> (I vaguely remember it giving some kind of timing output when I last used it)
  20. # [00:07] <gsnedders> WebKit has one! :P
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  23. # [00:07] <jcranmer> gsnedders: use dtrace!
  24. # [00:07] <Hixie> Philip`: i haven't successfully been able to get any of the dev tools to work with my firefox builds
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  26. # [00:07] <Hixie> it appears part of the problem is that offsetTop is really slow in firefox
  27. # [00:07] <gsnedders> Then don't use it?
  28. # [00:07] * gavin doubts that offsetTop itself is slow
  29. # [00:07] <gavin> but the layout flushes it triggers are another story
  30. # [00:07] <Hixie> i wait til after the page has painted to get the offsetTops
  31. # [00:07] <Hixie> and it takes upwards of a second to get all the offsetTop data of all the annotation boxes
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  82. # [00:32] <roc> Firebug has a profiler
  83. # [00:34] * gsnedders wants Coldbug
  84. # [00:36] <Hixie> gah why won't my browsers load my js files
  85. # [00:36] * gsnedders informs Hixie of this <script> element
  86. # [00:36] <Hixie> it's a caching problem actually
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  93. # [01:04] <olliej> roc: webkit has a profiler as well, i ahven't yet worked out how it decides how long is spent in functions though
  94. # [01:04] <olliej> roc: i'm not convinced it's restricting itself to the same rules of mathematics that we might usually expect
  95. # [01:05] <roc> I think everyone has a profiler now. Even IE8 has one
  96. # [01:06] <olliej> roc: .. lynx? ;D
  97. # [01:06] * olliej hides
  98. # [01:06] <roc> ok ok ok you win
  99. # [01:06] <olliej> hehehe
  100. # [01:06] <olliej> victory!
  101. # [01:06] * olliej does a dance
  102. # [01:06] * olliej trips and falls
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  104. # [01:07] <roc> I think our profiler turns off the JIT so it's probably less useful than it was
  105. # [01:07] <olliej> roc: ours doesn't
  106. # [01:07] <roc> need sample-based profiling of JITted code
  107. # [01:07] <olliej> roc: but omg
  108. # [01:07] <olliej> roc: completely nails performance
  109. # [01:07] <olliej> roc: yeah
  110. # [01:08] <olliej> roc: i'd like sampling based perf, we actually can do it, but it's fairly awful, and doesn't provide sufficient information for us to be able to give a useful profile
  111. # [01:09] <olliej> roc: we use it to work out what opcodes are taking too long
  112. # [01:09] <roc> you need stacks
  113. # [01:09] <roc> getting stacks in Tracemonkey would be interesting, since there's inlining going on
  114. # [01:09] <olliej> roc: yeah, i've often wondered how shark does it with such minimal perf impact
  115. # [01:09] <olliej> roc: hehe
  116. # [01:10] <olliej> roc: i see there work on tracking trace behaviour
  117. # [01:10] <olliej> roc: which is awesome
  118. # [01:10] <roc> Yeah
  119. # [01:10] <olliej> roc: i forget who was working on it, but is [s]he aware of my bug on that?
  120. # [01:10] <roc> Dave Mandelin
  121. # [01:10] <roc> what bug?
  122. # [01:11] <olliej> erm
  123. # [01:11] <olliej> roc: one moment
  124. # [01:11] <Hixie> i just commented out a block of code that does the most amount of work (i thought!) per page load in status.js
  125. # [01:11] <Hixie> the metric i'm timing went from 8319ms to 8416ms
  126. # [01:11] <Hixie> ...
  127. # [01:11] <roc> I'd like to have Dave's visualization in the progress bar :-)
  128. # [01:12] <olliej> roc: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=471645
  129. # [01:13] <roc> thanks :-)
  130. # [01:13] <roc> of course, traces should just not abort :-)
  131. # [01:14] <olliej> roc: heh
  132. # [01:14] <olliej> roc: there's always exceptions :D
  133. # [01:14] * Parts: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  134. # [01:14] <olliej> roc: our jit handles exceptions, but it isn't pretty to watch
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  136. # [01:15] <roc> This is going to be an ongoing problem for JS though ... to get good performance you'll always need an aggressive compiler, and the more aggressive the compiler, the less predictable the performance
  137. # [01:15] * gsnedders puts on angry face to try and make him do work quicker
  138. # [01:16] <roc> which is one reason all the efforts to achieve really good performance for higher-level languages than C/C++ have, to a large extent, failed
  139. # [01:16] <Hixie> ok i have narrowed down the 8000ms performance hit to the whitespace between two of my lines of code
  140. # [01:16] <Hixie> (@&*$(@!%&(!@#%!
  141. # [01:16] <Hixie> i wonder if what's happening is that the toc script is running between two of my timeouts or something
  142. # [01:17] <olliej> roc: i don't believe matching -O2/3 is feasible (at least not consistently) but i think O1 should be
  143. # [01:17] <olliej> Hixie: what are you working on?
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  145. # [01:17] <Hixie> olliej: making the spec load faster in firefox
  146. # [01:17] <gsnedders> status.js
  147. # [01:17] <gsnedders> in the spec
  148. # [01:18] <olliej> Hixie: ah
  149. # [01:18] <Hixie> nope, not the toc script.
  150. # [01:18] * gsnedders wonders why status annotations aren't done as part of the compiling of the spec
  151. # [01:19] <gsnedders> I guess that'd mean the spec would have to be regened to change them
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  153. # [01:20] <gsnedders> I also guess that'd mean me coding it
  154. # [01:20] <Hixie> heh
  155. # [01:21] <Hixie> the toc script could be done pretty easily
  156. # [01:21] <gsnedders> Yeah, that could and should be done
  157. # [01:21] <Hixie> (it does a bit more than the short toc now, btw)
  158. # [01:21] <gsnedders> Email me :P
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  160. # [01:21] <Hixie> no rush
  161. # [01:22] <gsnedders> Indeed not, I'm currently listening to Leonard Cohen
  162. # [01:22] <gsnedders> </bad joke>
  163. # [01:22] <gsnedders> Also, email doesn't mean a rush. I have emails to deal with going back to mid-last year :)
  164. # [01:23] <Hixie> i just mean i'm more interested in the other things you've on your list :-)
  165. # [01:23] * gsnedders looks at Facebook mailbox, then realizes he clicked on the wrong one, and clicks on "spec-gen"
  166. # [01:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: What do I have outstanding from you?
  167. # [01:24] <Hixie> cross-spec xrefs
  168. # [01:24] <gsnedders> :)
  169. # [01:25] <gsnedders> OK, _apart_ from xdoc xref?
  170. # [01:25] <Hixie> i think that's it
  171. # [01:25] <gsnedders> mid:Pine.LNX.4.62.0808051950100.5140@hixie.dreamhostps.com too
  172. # [01:25] <gsnedders> Accessibility and specgen
  173. # [01:25] <Hixie> what's that one?
  174. # [01:25] <Hixie> oh yeah
  175. # [01:25] <Hixie> that too
  176. # [01:26] <gsnedders> First the "make everyone-except-Hixie happy" release :P
  177. # [01:26] <Hixie> making it even faster would be nice too
  178. # [01:27] <gsnedders> I'd like that too, but I'm not sure quite how much quicker I can get in Python
  179. # [01:28] <Hixie> ok seriously, i don't understand why it takes 8s for firefox to run this 0ms setTimeout callback
  180. # [01:30] <Hixie> i'm gonna stick the html5 spec in an iframe in acid4 and just call that the test, i think
  181. # [01:32] * gsnedders copies a whole load of emails into the spec-gen folder
  182. # [01:33] * gsnedders wonders about rewriting Anolis in C++ in an attempt to learn C++
  183. # [01:34] * gsnedders wonders what browser-compat. HTML parsers there are that can be used without including the whole rendering engine
  184. # [01:35] <sicking> Hixie, firefox seems to be struggling pretty bad with rendering the HTML5 spec lately :(
  185. # [01:35] <Hixie> sicking: yeah, and i can't work out why
  186. # [01:35] <sicking> Hixie, dunno if something's changed recently
  187. # [01:35] <Hixie> sicking: i just spent the last 2 hours trying to pin it down
  188. # [01:35] <sicking> more annotations?
  189. # [01:35] <Hixie> sicking: the annotations don't appear to be the cause of the slowdown
  190. # [01:36] <Hixie> sicking: i mean, they take a few seconds here and there, but i'm seeing 8s pauses in between two of my callbacks, and stuff like that
  191. # [01:36] <sicking> Hixie, ping bz for a profile, he rocks at finding hotspots
  192. # [01:36] <sicking> some of it felt like rendering to me, but i'm not sure
  193. # [01:37] <gsnedders> sicking: Wait, you feel how long code takes to execute? Dude, you should be a millionaire!
  194. # [01:37] <sicking> gsnedders, it's all in the finger tips
  195. # [01:38] <sicking> also laying my ear against the terminal window helps
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  197. # [01:39] <Hixie> i just disabled all the scripts
  198. # [01:39] <Hixie> and it's still slowish
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  200. # [01:40] <doublec> I get the 'this script is taking too long to execute' all the time
  201. # [01:40] <Hixie> i wonder which script
  202. # [01:41] <doublec> hmm, not happening now. It was happening a lot yesterday.
  203. # [01:41] <Hixie> i've done a bunch of changes
  204. # [01:41] <Hixie> which might help
  205. # [01:42] <doublec> it got to the point where vi was my browser of choice for the spec
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  207. # [01:42] <jcranmer> not elinks?
  208. # [01:42] <doublec> I didn't think to try a text mode browser :)
  209. # [01:43] <Hixie> looks like a big chunk of the time is spent rendering the Status boxes
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  211. # [01:51] <Lachy> hey, why is section 2.1.1 XML marked as controversial? What issue could anyone possibly have with it?
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  213. # [01:51] <Hixie> Lachy: annotations may be wrong right now
  214. # [01:51] <Hixie> i'm fiddling with the script
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  217. # [01:53] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't see how you fiddling with the script could be messing up the annotations, since all the others marked controversial, actually are controversial
  218. # [01:53] <Hixie> hm
  219. # [01:53] <Hixie> maybe an ID changed?
  220. # [01:54] <Lachy> it says it was last set on 2008-12-15. So check SVN for that date and see which section had that ID.
  221. # [01:54] <sicking> Lachy, i consider it offensive!
  222. # [01:55] <Lachy> what's offensive about it?
  223. # [01:55] <Hixie> oh it was set by dean
  224. # [01:55] <Hixie> i'm sure he finds all kinds of things offensive
  225. # [01:55] <sicking> it doesn't cater to my swedish ancestry. Or something
  226. # [01:56] <Hixie> Lachy: feel free to update it
  227. # [01:56] <Hixie> assuming the annotation script works :_)
  228. # [01:57] <Lachy> maybe the status section needs a notes section for people to write or link to reasons for marking controversial
  229. # [01:57] <Lachy> s/status section/status boxes/
  230. # [01:58] <Lachy> anyway, I changed it to Working Draft for now
  231. # [01:59] * gsnedders procrastinates and thinks about Anolis2
  232. # [01:59] <Hixie> the real solution is to not use the status boxes to mark controvesry
  233. # [02:00] <Lachy> why was controversy added to the available options then?
  234. # [02:00] <Hixie> because it seemed like a good way to show that we were willing to work with the w3c
  235. # [02:02] <sicking> Hixie, does it ever stop consuming CPU if I wait?
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  237. # [02:02] <sicking> Hixie, going on a couple of minutes here and it's still chugging away
  238. # [02:03] <Hixie> sicking: yes, but i'm still tuning it.
  239. # [02:03] <sicking> Hixie, you should see if firebug is finding any hotspots
  240. # [02:03] <Hixie> firebug doesn't work for me
  241. # [02:03] <Hixie> for some reason
  242. # [02:03] <sicking> yay!
  243. # [02:03] <sicking> CPU is down
  244. # [02:03] <gsnedders> It's all these impatient young'uns nowadays, unable to stop waiting :P
  245. # [02:04] <sicking> now all i need to do is to not close this tab ever again :)
  246. # [02:04] <Hixie> part of the problem is i'm trying to balance the script doing work and the browser doing layout
  247. # [02:04] <gsnedders> s/stop waiting/wait/
  248. # [02:04] <Hixie> if i portion off the script's work into tiny bits, the browser tries to do a layout in between each iteration
  249. # [02:04] <Hixie> if i do all of it at once, the browser locks up
  250. # [02:05] <Hixie> if firefox did layout of the spec faster, this would be much less of an issue
  251. # [02:05] <gsnedders> Firefox--
  252. # [02:06] <sicking> Hixie, can't you make all annotations display:none until you've positioned them all
  253. # [02:06] <sicking> Hixie, and then flip them all on at the end
  254. # [02:06] <Hixie> hm, that's an idea
  255. # [02:07] <sicking> not sure if changing a rule at the end is faster, or if looping through them all and removing a class is
  256. # [02:07] <sicking> iirc we optimize poorly rule changes
  257. # [02:07] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  258. # [02:08] <sicking> but that might have been additions/subtractions of rules/stylesheets. Not changing existing rules
  259. # [02:08] <sicking> and we might also be optimizing it better these days
  260. # [02:08] <gsnedders> Everything should just run in 0 CPU time, then everything would be fine
  261. # [02:09] * Quits: annevk3 (n=opera@softbank219017210043.bbtec.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  262. # [02:10] <Hixie> oh wow yeah making them display:none definitely helps
  263. # [02:10] <Hixie> still slow though
  264. # [02:11] <Hixie> and the restily at the end takes an ungodly amount of time
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  267. # [02:11] <Hixie> restyle, even
  268. # [02:11] <Hixie> (restily?!)
  269. # [02:11] <gsnedders> That isn't even a thought -> audio -> text fail.
  270. # [02:11] * Joins: annevk3 (n=opera@EM114-48-194-144.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  271. # [02:15] <gsnedders> What's the amperage of normal US home power sockets?
  272. # [02:18] <Hixie> holy crapamoli
  273. # [02:18] <Hixie> removing document.getElementById() sped things up by a factor of 3
  274. # [02:21] <Hixie> sicking: is there some way to get firefox to prime its ID cache or something?
  275. # [02:24] <sicking> hmm
  276. # [02:24] <sicking> there is
  277. # [02:24] <sicking> why do you want to do it though?
  278. # [02:25] <Hixie> getElementById() is where all the time is being spent
  279. # [02:25] <sicking> in calls that fail or succeed?
  280. # [02:25] <Hixie> literally 20s of the 30s or so of loading it is spent in that one function
  281. # [02:25] <Hixie> all succeeds
  282. # [02:25] * sicking goes to look at the code
  283. # [02:26] <sicking> do you know if each call takes approx the same amount of time, or is there one call that all of a sudden takes a ton of time?
  284. # [02:26] <sicking> (where we prime the cache)
  285. # [02:27] <sicking> and are you not using the result of the gEBI call? How can you otherwise just remove it?
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  287. # [02:28] <Hixie> i replaced it with document.body
  288. # [02:28] <sicking> (i'm asking if you accidentally killed more code than the gEBI call)
  289. # [02:28] <Hixie> i turned this:
  290. # [02:28] <Hixie> function sectionToElement(section) { return document.getElementById(section);
  291. # [02:28] <Hixie> }
  292. # [02:28] <Hixie> into this:
  293. # [02:28] <Hixie> function sectionToElement(section) { return document.body; return document.getElementById(section);
  294. # [02:28] <Hixie> }
  295. # [02:28] <Hixie> and two thirds of the time went away
  296. # [02:28] <Hixie> there might be some misses, actually
  297. # [02:28] <Hixie> but most will be hits
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  300. # [02:29] <gsnedders> Damn that cmd+w!
  301. # [02:30] <sicking> and you're sure that doing whatever operation to the same element tons of times is the same as doing it to different elements?
  302. # [02:30] <Hixie> i do target = sectionToElement(section) followed by:
  303. # [02:30] <Hixie> target.parentNode.insertBefore(this.panel, target.nextSibling);
  304. # [02:30] <Hixie> oh
  305. # [02:30] <Hixie> so
  306. # [02:30] <Hixie> no
  307. # [02:31] <Hixie> in fact that would indeed be cheaper
  308. # [02:31] <othermaciej_> I don't know the context here but "doing whatever operation to the same element tons of times is the same as doing it to different elements" is not the case for most DOM operations
  309. # [02:31] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  310. # [02:31] <Hixie> i guess the time is really spent on insertBefore
  311. # [02:31] <Hixie> since document.body.nextSibling will always be null
  312. # [02:31] <sicking> Hixie, would it? inserting is about the same no matter where it happens
  313. # [02:31] <Hixie> which would turn that into a cheap append
  314. # [02:31] <sicking> basically
  315. # [02:31] <sicking> wait, unless you're inserting outside of what's displayed
  316. # [02:32] <Hixie> actually i guess that the first one would be different, but all subsequent inserts would be happening before the first one
  317. # [02:32] <Hixie> so yeah, it should be no different
  318. # [02:32] <othermaciej> wouldn't insertBefore be more expensive than appending in Gecko, due to the array representation of child nodes?
  319. # [02:32] <sicking> hmm.. actually
  320. # [02:32] <sicking> insertBefore(..., null) turns into appendChild
  321. # [02:33] <Hixie> let me try again with the document.body in the insertBefore but still doing the document.gEBI
  322. # [02:33] <othermaciej> (in WebKit it would be about the same unless it causes excessive style recalc or rebuilding of the render tree)
  323. # [02:33] <sicking> which we've optimized more heavily since it matters a lot during parsing
  324. # [02:33] <sicking> i.e. the layout engine is better at dealing with appendChild
  325. # [02:33] <othermaciej> (since we have a linked list representation of children)
  326. # [02:34] <sicking> Hixie, how many gEBI lookups do you do?
  327. # [02:34] <Hixie> 300 or so
  328. # [02:34] <Hixie> one per status box
  329. # [02:34] <sicking> so after 64 lookups we start priming
  330. # [02:34] <Hixie> apparently there are 270 hits and 47 misses
  331. # [02:35] <sicking> 64 lookups of different IDs. Doesn't matter if they return null or not
  332. # [02:35] <sicking> but looking up 'hello' 100 times does not prime
  333. # [02:35] <Hixie> these are all different
  334. # [02:35] <sicking> so would be interesting if lookup number 60 or so takes a long time. I doubt it though
  335. # [02:36] <sicking> try changing your insertBefore into appendChild and see if that makes a difference
  336. # [02:36] <sicking> or
  337. # [02:37] <sicking> start by looking up 65 'random' ids before doing anything else
  338. # [02:37] <sicking> and just time that part
  339. # [02:38] * sicking wonders if this lazy priming is really worth it
  340. # [02:39] <Hixie> yeah appendchild is really fast compared to insertbefore, and insertbofer on document.body is really fast compared to doing it in the middle of a big doc
  341. # [02:39] <Hixie> not doing gEBI doesn't actually save time once i take this into account
  342. # [02:39] <sicking> cool
  343. # [02:40] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@222-151-083-100.jp.fiberbit.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  344. # [02:40] <Hixie> so basically dom manipulation is what is taking a long time
  345. # [02:40] <sicking> well, it's rather the rendering after that takes time i would think
  346. # [02:40] <sicking> hmm..
  347. # [02:40] <sicking> maybe not actually
  348. # [02:40] <Hixie> no the rendering is turned off right now
  349. # [02:40] <Hixie> i did the display:none thing you suggested
  350. # [02:41] <sicking> do you have very long child lists?
  351. # [02:41] <Hixie> yes
  352. # [02:41] <Hixie> very very very long
  353. # [02:41] <Hixie> the entire spec long
  354. # [02:41] <sicking> are you inserting into the long lists?
  355. # [02:41] <Hixie> yes
  356. # [02:41] <Hixie> i'm inserting these boxes all the way down this list
  357. # [02:42] <sicking> "all the way down"?
  358. # [02:42] <sicking> s/elements/boxes/?
  359. # [02:42] <sicking> s/boxes/elements/?
  360. # [02:42] <Hixie> basically the spec is a long list of h2/h3/h4 elements, p elements, div elements, etc
  361. # [02:42] <Hixie> and for almost every h2/h3/h4 element, i'm inserting a div element next to it
  362. # [02:43] <sicking> how many children are we talking here?
  363. # [02:43] <Hixie> 10032
  364. # [02:43] <Hixie> javascript:alert(document.body.childNodes.length) = 10032
  365. # [02:43] <sicking> we are going to end up doing a linear search through this list a lot
  366. # [02:44] <sicking> are you inserting these in order?
  367. # [02:44] <Hixie> no
  368. # [02:44] <sicking> ish?
  369. # [02:44] <Hixie> i'm probably inserting them in the order they were created
  370. # [02:44] <sicking> just random, not even close top-to-bottom
  371. # [02:44] <Hixie> which probably looks pseudo-random
  372. # [02:44] <sicking> chronological spec creation wise?
  373. # [02:45] <Hixie> chronological status annotation creation wise
  374. # [02:45] <Hixie> i guess
  375. # [02:45] <Hixie> i don't know
  376. # [02:45] <Hixie> it's certainly not spec order
  377. # [02:45] <sicking> ok
  378. # [02:45] <Hixie> it could also be some random mysql order
  379. # [02:45] <sicking> still surprises me a little, it shouldn't be *that* slow to search the list, though 10032 is a lot
  380. # [02:46] <sicking> can you change to spec order and see if it makes a difference?
  381. # [02:46] <sicking> or
  382. # [02:46] <sicking> can you avoid inserting into this long list?
  383. # [02:46] <Hixie> i don't really have a good way to figure out the spec order
  384. # [02:47] <Hixie> well i could put divs all over the place
  385. # [02:47] <Hixie> but then i'd be working around a particular browser's limitation
  386. # [02:47] <Hixie> which i keep telling people i won't do for IE :-)
  387. # [02:47] <sicking> can you insert these elements as children of the hx/p/divs? rather than as siblings
  388. # [02:47] <sicking> hah
  389. # [02:47] <sicking> fair enough
  390. # [02:47] <Hixie> inserting divs into hxs and ps would be a spec violation
  391. # [02:48] <Hixie> i do actually insert them into the divs when that's possible
  392. # [02:48] <sicking> spec schmeck. No-one reads specs anyways :)
  393. # [02:48] <sicking> well, we'll have to release the profile hounds on this and see what's up
  394. # [02:49] <sicking> can i turn off annotations somewhere for now?
  395. # [02:50] <Hixie> not currently
  396. # [02:50] <Hixie> but i might add that feature shortly
  397. # [02:50] <gsnedders> Turn of JS!
  398. # [02:50] <gsnedders> *off
  399. # [02:52] <sicking> i was gonna, turns out we don't have easy-access prefs for turning off JS on a site-by-site basis :(
  400. # [02:52] <sicking> i'm sure we have it somewhere, just no UI for it
  401. # [02:52] <sicking> we do have prefs for images, popups, cookies and addons though.... awesome
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  404. # [02:58] <roc> use noscript or something
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  406. # [03:02] <annevk3> Hixie, can you generate a copy of the spec without all the scripts?
  407. # [03:03] <annevk3> Hixie, they are actually becoming a pain for me in Opera too
  408. # [03:03] <gsnedders> annevk3: But I thought Opera was quick!
  409. # [03:03] <gsnedders> I mean, that's what the marketing says!
  410. # [03:03] <annevk3> are you saying you trust TV commercials as well?
  411. # [03:04] <Hixie> yeah i can just have a slow browsers mode
  412. # [03:06] <annevk3> :)
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  417. # [03:32] <Hixie> ok you can now stick ?slow-browser on the end of the URL to disable the scripts
  418. # [03:32] <Hixie> and ?profile to get timings
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  425. # [03:53] <annevk4> Hixie, the W3C editor's draft is still marked WD
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  487. # [10:30] <hsivonen_> for people interested in HTML5 parsing: integration with layout now sucks less https://build.mozilla.org/tryserver-builds/2009-03-02_06:05-hsivonen@iki.fi-try-19e5173f3c3/
  488. # [10:30] <hsivonen_> innerHTML setter should work, too
  489. # [10:30] <Lachy> Hixie, since section 2.5.4 (relationship to flash, etc.) was removed, are you intending to leave it out for good, or are you still interested in readding it once it has been rewritten?
  490. # [10:30] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  491. # [10:31] <Lachy> I have that action item that I need to deal with this week about rewriting it with Larry and I need to know if I should bother spending time on it
  492. # [10:31] <roc_> hsivonen_: awesome!
  493. # [10:32] * roc_ is now known as roc
  494. # [10:32] <hsivonen_> roc: thanks. I'm using nsTArray as a very naive set in the notification batching code. I should see if there's something better.
  495. # [10:32] <roc> set?
  496. # [10:33] <roc> nsTHashtable maybe
  497. # [10:33] <roc> if you're doing element-of a lot
  498. # [10:33] <hsivonen_> roc: a set of elements that that I know aren't touching the notification boundary between the old and new parts of the tree
  499. # [10:34] * hsivonen_ looks up nsTHashtable
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  501. # [10:34] <roc> you may also want to look at nsHashKeys.h
  502. # [10:34] <hsivonen_> roc: ok. thanks
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  504. # [10:46] <Hixie> hsivonen_: i've given up on that fight, so unless someone else thinks we should keep it, i'm ok with just dropping it
  505. # [10:46] <hsivonen_> Hixie: did you mean Lachy?
  506. # [10:46] <Hixie> er yes
  507. # [10:46] <Hixie> Lachy: ^
  508. # [10:47] <hsivonen_> Hixie: btw, making the tree builder not read from the DOM during AAA turns out to be useful for the single-threaded case as well
  509. # [10:47] <Hixie> i'm sure
  510. # [10:48] <hsivonen_> Hixie: because timeouts don't need to flush the tree builder
  511. # [10:48] <Hixie> timeouts?
  512. # [10:48] <hsivonen_> Hixie: scripts that run through setTimeout/interval
  513. # [10:48] <Hixie> ah
  514. # [10:48] <hsivonen_> Hixie: since whatever they do wouldn't affect the queue of pending tree ops
  515. # [10:54] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't think it's worth fighting for either. There are much more important things to worry about.
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  518. # [10:58] <Lachy> hsivonen_, why does your HTML5 build of Mozilla suffer from the unresponsive script issues in the HTML5 spec, whereas the latest trunk build doesn't? Are you using some older components?
  519. # [10:58] <Hixie> latest trunk isn't so hot either
  520. # [10:59] <Lachy> yeah, but at least the trunk doesn't need to show the unresponsive script dialog asking to stop the script.
  521. # [11:00] <hsivonen_> Lachy: the HTML5 stuff branched in December
  522. # [11:01] <Lachy> ok
  523. # [11:03] * Lachy decides to work on the HTML 5 Reference today
  524. # [11:03] <hsivonen_> I think I should merge in new stuff from the trunk once 1) I have eliminated the leaks I introduced and 2) the trunk itself is in good shape
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  529. # [11:25] <john_fallows> Hixie: what is the type of the "open" event for EventSource and WebSocket ? (it is not hyperlinked like the others)
  530. # [11:26] <Hixie> find the text that fires the event, there should be some term of art used to fire it
  531. # [11:26] <Hixie> probably "fire a simple event"
  532. # [11:27] <Hixie> follow the link for that term of art and it'll answer the question, unless i screwed up
  533. # [11:28] <hsivonen_> I think I found the cause of the bug zcopran reported about doctype sometimes not showing up in the DOM in the HTML5 parsing Gecko builds
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  535. # [11:31] <john_fallows> Hixie: yes, fire a simple event, which "does not bubble, but is cancelable (unless otherwise stated)" - what would it mean to cancel a WebSocket / EventSource open event?
  536. # [11:35] <Hixie> if no default action is specified, then nothing
  537. # [11:36] <john_fallows> ok, thanks
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  541. # [11:43] <john_fallows> Hixie: one of the other pieces of feedback on that email thread that prompted the change from <eventsource> to EventSource mentioned sharing stream data at the browser as a killer feature for SSE, what do you think?
  542. # [11:44] <Hixie> sharing stream data?
  543. # [11:44] <john_fallows> yeah, across tabs to avoid 2 physical streams for the same logical information
  544. # [11:45] <Hixie> ah, interesting
  545. # [11:45] <Hixie> technically the spec allows that already i think
  546. # [11:45] <Hixie> though technically the second tab would need to be sent all the events so far
  547. # [11:46] <Hixie> ok i should definitely be in bed
  548. # [11:46] <Hixie> nn
  549. # [11:46] <john_fallows> nn
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  554. # [12:03] <annevk> http://code.google.com/p/tircd/ is interesting
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  557. # [12:08] <jgraham> annevk: It seems to encourage real-time conversations via twitter in a way that it's not clear that twitter can really manage (I know it is far from unique in having this property)
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  561. # [12:50] <Philip`> Did Google change its link colour? It looks a bit more cyan to me than usual
  562. # [12:50] <Philip`> but it might just be my eyes
  563. # [12:51] <virtuelv> Philip`: dunno -- color: #0029cc;
  564. # [12:52] <virtuelv> default is #0000cc
  565. # [12:52] <Lachy> Philip`, looks the same color to me
  566. # [12:53] <Lachy> maybe your monitor is getting old and rendering colours wrongly
  567. # [12:53] <Philip`> Hmm, it's different in Opera than in Firefox
  568. # [12:54] <Philip`> Maybe it's a per-cookie thing?
  569. # [12:55] <Philip`> The front page is #0000cc, but the search results page uses #03e
  570. # [12:55] <Philip`> It's weird and disturbing :'-(
  571. # [12:56] <Philip`> (and it's definitely a real change in the markup, not just monitor/eyes/etc)
  572. # [12:59] <hsivonen_> Philip`: are they decaying the color over time based on cookie?
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  574. # [13:02] <Philip`> hsivonen_: That would be kind of neat, but totally absurd
  575. # [13:03] <Philip`> Also I didn't notice this problem yesterday, so it's a sudden change and not a decay :-)
  576. # [13:03] * Philip` guesses it's just some kind of experiment
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  585. # [13:49] * jgraham hates Swedish telecoms companies
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  592. # [14:20] <Lachy> Hixie, from section 5.1 Browsing Contexts, "The origin of the about:blank Document is set when the Document is created..." - shouldn't that say "The origin [and the effective script origin] ..."
  593. # [14:22] <Lachy> hmm, maybe not.
  594. # [14:22] <Lachy> Section 5.4 Origin only sets the origin:
  595. # [14:22] <Lachy> If a Document has the address "about:blank"
  596. # [14:22] <Lachy> The origin of the Document is the origin it was assigned when its browsing context was created.
  597. # [14:24] <Philip`> jgraham: More than British ones?
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  600. # [14:31] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes on the quite reasonable basis that I no longer have to deal with british ones.
  601. # [14:32] <jgraham> ANd also on the basis that I could always get an internet connection within the first 6 weeks of trying there, whereas that has not been the case here
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  603. # [14:35] <jgraham> Although admittedly my experiences with both English and Swedish telecoms companies suffer from small number statistics
  604. # [14:36] * hsivonen_ decides to try implementing frameset-ok as an insertion mode
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  609. # [14:49] <jgraham> hsivonen_: Hacker news comment threads (e.g. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=500781 ) have doubled text, some in grey, with the HTML 5 Firefox
  610. # [14:51] <hsivonen_> jgraham: thanks. It seems that node removals from parent during AAA aren't properly notified to layout.
  611. # [14:52] <hsivonen_> jgraham: if you try selecting the text, some of the text doesn't exist as selectable
  612. # [14:52] <jgraham> hsivonen_: Oh yes, I noticed that but forgot to say :)
  613. # [15:04] * arve__ is now known as virtuelv
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  620. # [15:24] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I was going to ping you about something. Any idea what?
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  622. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah, you were finally going to send me that big bag of dope you've been promising
  623. # [15:27] <gsnedders> Ah, OK.
  624. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: plus, you said you were going to write a poem about me
  625. # [15:28] <gsnedders> Ah, OK.
  626. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> you said it would be along the lines of Gilgamesh
  627. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> but with more sex
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  630. # [15:31] <gsnedders> Ah, OK.
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  634. # [15:48] * felix-da-catz_zz is now known as felix_da_catz
  635. # [15:48] <Lachy> gsnedders, I think I need something like an include mechanism in anolis, so that I can include automatically generated bits together with the rest
  636. # [15:48] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-b8e8d42aa583cc07)
  637. # [15:49] <gsnedders> Lachy: email
  638. # [15:49] <Lachy> specifically, what I have is the element descriptions being extracted and generated from the HTML5 spec, and I need each of those to be included along with the custom explanatory text that I write for each
  639. # [15:49] <gsnedders> Lachy: Email.
  640. # [15:51] <jgraham> Surely that should be eMail if you are progressively adding caps :p
  641. # [15:51] <Lachy> jgraham, no, it's e-mail or E-Mail
  642. # [15:52] <jgraham> but everything that is foo -> foo on the internet gets a lowercase e
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  644. # [15:55] <Philip`> jgraham: Do you mean "foo -> efoo"?
  645. # [15:56] <Philip`> I guess eRDF supports your case
  646. # [15:58] <Lachy> I can't think of anything else that has a lowercase e like that.
  647. # [16:00] <gsnedders> What the best way to teach someone how to use a compuer?
  648. # [16:00] <gsnedders> *computer
  649. # [16:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: No one knows
  650. # [16:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: Give them one and tell them not to worry about breaking it
  651. # [16:00] <gsnedders> :P
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  654. # [16:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: However a more sensible question would have more parameters like the age and background of the person involved
  655. # [16:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: 65, has minimal experience using Mac OS 7 asking for help every approx. 0.5 seconds
  656. # [16:02] <Philip`> Other useful parameters include what the goal of teaching them to use a computer is
  657. # [16:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: Use teh power of teh intarwebs!111!!eleventy!
  658. # [16:04] * Philip` knows an elderly person who likes going to classes at the local Apple store
  659. # [16:04] <gsnedders> (Or, use the web and email)
  660. # [16:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: So what are the main problems?
  661. # [16:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: local here means 80 mlles away
  662. # [16:04] <jgraham> Like typical problems would be "fear of data loss"
  663. # [16:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: Not knowing how to do anything, more or less :)
  664. # [16:05] <jgraham> Is it paranoia about breaking something or...
  665. # [16:05] <gsnedders> "I just don't like using it."
  666. # [16:07] <jgraham> Replace the desktop with sugar, explain it is designed for children and that you have no idea how to use it either?
  667. # [16:07] * jgraham will think of a serious suggestion in a moment
  668. # [16:07] <Philip`> I'm not sure that much sugar would be particularly healthy
  669. # [16:07] <gsnedders> Also, lack of intuition about how to delete something (y'know, you see that delete button?)
  670. # [16:08] <Philip`> By "that delete button", do you mean "that button which says <--- on it"?
  671. # [16:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: Have you turned on text in icons? That seems like it would help by reducing the abstraction level
  672. # [16:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: The delete button that says delete on it
  673. # [16:09] <jgraham> (Does OSX even do that?)
  674. # [16:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah
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  676. # [16:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
  677. # [16:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: It is turned on.
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  679. # [16:10] <jgraham> Hmm. I think people have difficulty with the abstract concepts associated with using a computer, particularly if they are old
  680. # [16:10] <jgraham> But I don't know what you do about it
  681. # [16:10] <gsnedders> Nor do I.
  682. # [16:11] <Philip`> Teach them through repetition to know which actions are needed to perform the tasks they want to perform
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  691. # [16:11] <Philip`> As long as nothing changes much (e.g. they don't accidentally resize their windows), that works well enough to be beneficial in practice
  692. # [16:12] <jgraham> http://www.google.com/search?q=teaching+old+people+to+use+a+computer+techniques&btnG=Search&hl=en&sa=2 seems like it might be helpful
  693. # [16:13] <jgraham> Actually the sugar suggestion, whilst impractical, is not entirely non-serious for roughly the reason Philip` mentioned; the fact that everything runs fullscreen means there is a lot less conceptual baggage around window mangement
  694. # [16:13] * Philip` hopes it's not considered too patronising to talk about "old people" like this
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  698. # [16:18] * Philip` discovers that GCC 4.3 does data flow analysis to detect aliasing violations in C++, which is pretty neat
  699. # [16:20] <Philip`> (It is, admittedly, less neat that the language supports errors that can't be detected without data flow analysis, and can't reliably be detected even with data flow analysis)
  700. # [16:21] <Philip`> (but that's what makes it fun)
  701. # [16:22] <gsnedders> Heh.
  702. # [16:23] <gsnedders> Side-effect of my mother's great computing skill: just got an email saying payment has to be made by 28 Feb for where I was meant to be going during Easter holidays.
  703. # [16:23] <gsnedders> (It has, inevitably, not been made.)
  704. # [16:28] * gsnedders thinks the sugar idea might not be a bad one
  705. # [16:33] <jgraham> It seems you can run sugar in its own window, which is nice
  706. # [16:34] <Philip`> Can you combine it with the 3D rotating virtual desktops of Compiz to make a sugar cube?
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  724. # [16:49] * Philip` sees that about 15% of Canvex visitors over the past ten days have 1024x768 screens, and almost everyone else it at least 1280x800
  725. # [16:49] <Philip`> which I suppose is nice in terms of knowing that there's no point caring about 800x600
  726. # [16:49] <Philip`> and not much point in caring about anything below 1280x800
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  731. # [16:50] <Lachy> Philip`, sure, but remember that not everyone maximises their window and on a 1024 screen, a non=maximised window may only be about 800px wide
  732. # [16:50] <svl_> Philip`: but of course that half of those with larger resolutions won't be running fullscreen, and will probably have their browser widths set to something close to 800 or 1024
  733. # [16:50] * svl_ is slow
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  735. # [16:51] <Lachy> on my 1920x1200 screen, my browser window is only about 1200px wide
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  738. # [16:52] <Philip`> (Hmm, and 40% of the 1024x768 users were IE, which I really don't care about in Canvex)
  739. # [16:53] <Philip`> Lachy: But at least they can choose to maximise their browser in order to fully experience my compelling content
  740. # [16:53] <Philip`> rather than simply not having a big enough monitor
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  763. # [18:03] <sayrer> does HTML5 cover interoperability of mixed SSL / non-SSL pages?
  764. # [18:09] <jgraham> "Let L be a string of the same length as S where each character of L is either the Unicode lowercase
  765. # [18:09] <jgraham> equivalent of the corresponding character of S
  766. # [18:09] <sayrer> I ask because I noticed that Safari leaves SSL indicators in that case while Firefox turns them off
  767. # [18:09] <jgraham> " - has ES3.1 really abandoned the cases where case shifting changes the number of characters
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  769. # [18:13] * jgraham should ask on es-discuss but doesn't want to without some confirmation he is not being totally dozy
  770. # [18:13] <gsnedders> This is why I don't post to mailing lists.
  771. # [18:15] <Philip`> jgraham: Do you have an example where lowercasing changes the number of characters?
  772. # [18:15] <Philip`> (in whatever locale it's meant to be)
  773. # [18:16] <jgraham> Philip`: In some locales, yes.
  774. # [18:17] <jgraham> Note that the draft also says toUpperCase behaves in exactly the same was as toLoerCase
  775. # [18:17] <jgraham> toLowerCase
  776. # [18:17] <jgraham> and toUpperCase has several non-locale-dependant cases where the length changes
  777. # [18:18] <jgraham> e.g. u00DF -> u0053 u0053
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  779. # [18:21] <Philip`> alert("\uFB00".toUpperCase()) seems to consistently give U+FB00 in browsers
  780. # [18:24] <jgraham> Philip`: AFAICT Squirrelfish and V8 give FF for that case
  781. # [18:24] <Philip`> Oh
  782. # [18:25] <Philip`> alert("\uFB00".toUpperCase()) seems to consistently give U+FB00 in the three browsers I tested, which excludes anything based on WebKit
  783. # [18:25] <gsnedders> WebKit from a few days ago gives FF
  784. # [18:26] <jgraham> (and if the intention was to ignore special cases like this, it is surprising that the next paragraph in the spec specifically draws attention to the fact that SpecialCasings.txt must be considered)
  785. # [18:27] * gsnedders thinks teh spec is b0rked
  786. # [18:28] <jgraham> For bonus points, decide what is supposed to happen with "\u03A3\u03A".toLowerCase()3
  787. # [18:28] <jgraham> er, "u03A3\u03A3".toLowerCase()
  788. # [18:29] <jgraham> s/"u/"\u/
  789. # [18:29] * gsnedders waits for jgraham to eventually get there
  790. # [18:29] <jgraham> Or something.
  791. # [18:29] <jgraham> Look you know what I mean
  792. # [18:29] <gsnedders> Oh, sure.
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  802. # [19:06] <Philip`> sayrer: I don't remember ever seeing HTML5 cover anything SSL-related like that
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  804. # [19:07] <Philip`> (which is probably intentional, since it's a UI issue and isn't really related to HTML interoperability)
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  807. # [19:21] <sayrer> Philip`, there are lots of things in the spec that aren't related to HTML interoperability
  808. # [19:21] <sayrer> but I could see whether the page is considered secure influencing some parts of navigation
  809. # [19:22] <sayrer> also cache policies
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  813. # [19:26] <Philip`> sayrer: It does seem to be mentioned in the context of navigation: "Note: Typically user agents are configured to not report referrers in the case where the referrer uses an encrypted protocol and the current page does not (e.g. when navigating from an https: page to an http: page)."
  814. # [19:26] <Philip`> (I imagine one could argue whether this kind of thing should be a normative requirement)
  815. # [19:29] <sayrer> maybe it's not a big deal
  816. # [19:29] <sayrer> a mixed-context page should get all of the restrictions an SSL page does
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  882. # [22:58] <Hixie> jmb: btw, the google maps bug was fixed
  883. # [22:58] <Hixie> let me know if you spot any others
  884. # [22:59] <jmb> Hixie: thanks :)
  885. # [22:59] <jmb> Hixie: I shall :)
  886. # [22:59] <gsnedders> Hixie says having been reminded :P
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  888. # [23:00] <Hixie> :-)
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  898. # [23:34] * Philip` wonders if 8KB is unacceptably large for a favicon
  899. # [23:36] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like it's well above average, but some other sites have quarter-megabyte favicons, so I won't feel too guilty
  900. # [23:37] * Philip` now has a nice animated 16x16 Sierpinski gasket favicon
  901. # [23:37] <Hixie> QUARTER MEGABYTE?!
  902. # [23:38] <Philip`> http://l4d.com/blog/images/favicon.ico
  903. # [23:39] <Hixie> wow, they're ready for the high res world
  904. # [23:39] <Philip`> It's still only a 16x16 icon
  905. # [23:40] <Philip`> Looks like they've got a high-res BMP version of the image after the IEND chunk in the PNG
  906. # [23:40] <Hixie> that wasn't 16x16 for me
  907. # [23:40] <Hixie> unless safari is showing me some other chunk
  908. # [23:41] <Philip`> Hmm, Opera and Firefox show me a 16x16 one
  909. # [23:42] <Philip`> Safari tries to download the file instead of displaying it
  910. # [23:42] <Philip`> Actually it looks like the file has a low-res PNG, then a low-res BMP, then a high-res PNG, then a high-res BMP
  911. # [23:43] <Hixie> what's the outer format?
  912. # [23:43] <Hixie> or are they just concatenated
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  914. # [23:44] <Philip`> http://images.wikia.com/half-life/en/images/6/64/Favicon.ico is pretty huge too
  915. # [23:44] <Hixie> "images/6/64/" indeed
  916. # [23:44] <Philip`> Those numbers are just from the MD5 of the filename :-p
  917. # [23:44] <Hixie> likely story!
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  919. # [23:45] <Philip`> About outer format: Oh, I thoughtlessly assumed it was PNG, but actually it's not, so presumably it's the new Windows ICO format that embeds high-res PNGs
  920. # [23:45] <Hixie> aah
  921. # [23:46] <Philip`> $ echo -n Favicon.ico|md5sum -
  922. # [23:46] <Philip`> 64682bf96f86015fb949533728963457 -
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  924. # [23:46] <Philip`> It's a very likely story that that's the MD5 :-)
  925. # [23:48] <Hixie> :-P
  926. # [23:49] <Philip`> (Well, there's a 1 in 256 chance that that was a coincidence, except I already know how Mediawiki generates directory names for images)
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  931. # Session Close: Wed Mar 04 00:00:00 2009

The end :)