/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 05 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:02] <Lachy> I have this: table = ET.parse("indexelements-template.xhtml")
  6. # [00:02] <Lachy> that returns an ElementTree instance. How do I access the elements within that?
  7. # [00:02] <Lachy> the API documentation isn't really clear
  8. # [00:03] <Lachy> oh, getroot()
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  10. # [00:08] <annevk5> hmm, is <input type=text spellcheck> really invalid?
  11. # [00:08] <annevk5> that would be different from contenteditable
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  13. # [00:14] <Lachy> yeah, it appears so. The spec should probably say the empty string and the true keyword map to the true state, like it does for contenteditable
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  19. # [00:32] <Lachy> does html5lib support parsing fragments, like using innerHTML?
  20. # [00:33] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  21. # [00:33] <Lachy> I have a config file with descriptions of elements, and each of those descriptions can contain fragments of markup. I need those parsed so that I can add them to the element tree
  22. # [00:33] <gsnedders> Lachy: Yes, it does
  23. # [00:34] * gsnedders can remember from hacking on the code it does… what the API is is a different question
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  25. # [00:35] <Lachy> I can't find much API documentation for it, which makes it hard
  26. # [00:36] <gsnedders> Yeah, you basically have to code read…
  27. # [00:36] <gsnedders> Or ask jgraham
  28. # [00:36] <Philip`> Try "import html5lib; help(html5lib.HTMLParser)" in the interactive shell?
  29. # [00:37] <Philip`> That lists parseFragment(self, stream, container='div', encoding=None, parseMeta=False, useChardet=True)
  30. # [00:37] <gsnedders> p.parseFragment instead of p.parse
  31. # [00:37] <Lachy> oh, nice
  32. # [00:37] <Lachy> I didn't know I could get documentation from there
  33. # [00:37] <Lachy> would be nice if that were provided on the html5lib project page though
  34. # [00:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: Patches welcome. :)
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  36. # [00:48] <Lachy> what kind of object does the parseFragment() method return?
  37. # [00:48] <Lachy> it doesn't seem to be returning an element tree
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  40. # [00:55] <Lachy> ah, I figured it out. It returns a list of elements
  41. # [01:01] <Lachy> I can't find an easy way of appending a list of elements and text nodes, which are returned by parseFragment(), to an existing element.
  42. # [01:02] <Lachy> I can see getchildren(), which reutrns all the children of an element as a list, but there doesn't seem to be a matching setchildren() method
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  73. # [04:04] <Lachy> I've now added the brief descriptions to the element summaries in the HTML 5 Reference http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#the-elements (i.e. paragraphs that say "The foo element represents...")
  74. # [04:04] <Lachy> some of those are identical to what's in the spec, and still need to be updated to be more author friendly
  75. # [04:05] <Lachy> and some, like the a element, are incomplete because the spec splits the description across multiple paragraphs, but my script only extracted the first
  76. # [04:06] <Lachy> I also added the index of elements http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#index-of-elements
  77. # [04:15] <Lachy> I now added the tag requirements (required/optional/empty) to the element summaries
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  95. # [05:19] <annevk> html5alt@lists.wisc.edu?
  96. # [05:21] <annevk> (from www-archive)
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  101. # [05:51] * annevk killed wiki.html5.org
  102. # [05:51] <dglazkov> murderer!
  103. # [05:53] <annevk> if you only knew :p
  104. # [05:53] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: about the WSJ article, dude doesn't know his ass from the hole in the ground, so wouldn't worry about it too much
  105. # [05:54] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: :) I know. It still bugs me.
  106. # [05:55] * dglazkov mumbles something about manners and civility
  107. # [05:59] <Lachy> annevk, why did you kill it? Was it getting spammed too much?
  108. # [06:05] <karlcow> little agony…
  109. # [06:06] <annevk> it was unused and there was some spam
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  112. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, it's been more than one year now since we first contacted the GNU guys about quoting of filenames in GNU error format
  113. # [06:20] <Hixie> i mam now 25% done with this edit
  114. # [06:20] <Hixie> am
  115. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: commit to checkpoint what you got done so far?
  116. # [06:24] <Hixie> checkpoint?
  117. # [06:24] <Hixie> the whatwg copy has what i've done so far
  118. # [06:24] <Hixie> i regen it after each subsection
  119. # [06:24] <jwalden> Hixie: did you see the URL I posted here last night directed at you?
  120. # [06:25] <Hixie> which one?
  121. # [06:25] <jwalden> Hixie: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/630108
  122. # [06:25] <jwalden> another infinite redirect in Google props
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  124. # [06:25] <Hixie> what are the steps to get to that point?
  125. # [06:25] <Hixie> i.e. where did you get that link?
  126. # [06:26] <jwalden> Hixie: Google Reader site URL for the feed for http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/
  127. # [06:26] <jwalden> viewing a specific post, clicked on the title of that post and got sent there
  128. # [06:27] <Hixie> so the steps to reproduce are subscribe to that feed, then click the title of a post in google reader?
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  131. # [06:28] <jwalden> Hixie: http://feeds.feedburner.com/BrandonSandersonBlog is the feed, select "all items" as the view for it, expand the "AMoL Update...kind of." post, click on the title
  132. # [06:29] <Hixie> weird
  133. # [06:30] <jwalden> I really have no idea how it is I've managed to find two of these redirect-to-self bugs, I'm not making a special effort to use Google stuff weirdly :-)
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  135. # [06:32] <jwalden> conveniently for anyone who might have also hit this there's 1) not much in the entry and 2) a Continue Reading link that works :-)
  136. # [06:32] <jwalden> so at least for this one weird case nobody's going to be especially inconvenienced
  137. # [06:32] <Hixie> i wonder if it's because of the encoding declaration errors
  138. # [06:33] <jwalden> I've been watching that feed for months and haven't had problems in the past, so dunno
  139. # [06:34] <Hixie> that particular post has a "..." unicode character
  140. # [06:34] <Hixie> that is badly encoded
  141. # [06:34] <jwalden> ah, yes, http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds2.feedburner.com%2FBrandonSandersonBlog
  142. # [06:35] <jwalden> that whole site/feed aren't the greatest tech-wise, most posts on the site show up with what seems to be a UTF-8 BOM and flash of white until the rest of the page loads and presumably Firefox decides it's really a different encoding at that point
  143. # [06:36] * jwalden hasn't cared enough to really investigate the problem
  144. # [06:36] <sayrer> god that feed is brutal
  145. # [06:37] <jwalden> :-D
  146. # [06:37] <Hixie> well i filed the bug
  147. # [06:37] <Hixie> so thanks
  148. # [06:38] <Hixie> :-)
  149. # [06:38] <jwalden> no problem, always fun to amuse your peeps with obscure bugs :-)
  150. # [06:38] * jwalden can't believe he just said "peeps"
  151. # [06:38] <Hixie> :-)
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  158. # [07:15] <Hixie> 29% and about to embark on <video>
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  170. # [07:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: wow, one missing space character triggered thousands of errors :-)
  171. # [07:54] <Hixie> (the missing space ate the end tag of an inline element that then got AAA'ed into the next eight thousand or so paragraphs, headers, etc)
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  183. # [08:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh yeah, should I follow up on the GNU stuff? I thought the ball was in their court.
  184. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, it is
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  186. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> actually, I think it's specifically in the hands of RMS
  187. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> I'll e-mail a reminder to Karl Berry
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  189. # [08:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
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  191. # [08:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's your preferred user id other than 'mike'? 'sideshowbarker'?
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  193. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, "sideshowbarker"
  194. # [08:50] <hsivonen> k
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  238. # [11:24] <Hixie> 34% done
  239. # [11:24] <Hixie> 5% of the spec is video, wow
  240. # [11:27] <Lachy> Hixie, what's 34% done?
  241. # [11:27] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-517d697ba84d1a9c)
  242. # [11:29] <Lachy> gotta go, back soon
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  248. # [11:43] <Hixie> lachy: going through doing the author stuff
  249. # [11:47] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  250. # [11:53] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-cg/2009JanMar/0029.html
  251. # [11:58] <Philip`> https://lists.wisc.edu/read/?forum=html5alt - new list?
  252. # [11:59] <Philip`> (That's a horrid list interface - why can't they just use plain HTML with links, and not squash everything into tiny boxes?)
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  257. # [12:09] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-cg-minutes.html
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  263. # [12:26] <jgraham> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeProposal
  264. # [12:28] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-517d697ba84d1a9c) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  265. # [12:30] <beowulf> i'm just a dumb html author, but why not simply assume an img with alt="" is presentational?
  266. # [12:32] <Dashiva> Isn't that what everyone does?
  267. # [12:33] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-5a5f3aed58543803)
  268. # [12:33] <Philip`> beowulf: Maybe the idea is to make the cost of incorrectly marking a critical image as presentational greater than the cost of giving it correct alt text, so people will do less of the former and hence more of the latter
  269. # [12:34] <Philip`> But that's probably not the reasoning, and I have no idea what the reasoning is because that wiki page doesn't seem to include any
  270. # [12:36] <beowulf> speaking for the dumb html authors, making things harder isn't a good tactic for success
  271. # [12:37] <jgraham> beowulf: Really? Who knew?
  272. # [12:37] <beowulf> :)
  273. # [12:38] <Philip`> But if it makes valid pages more accessible then it's a net win!
  274. # [12:38] <Philip`> (and don't bother about invalid pages because they're invalid and who cares what they're going to do)
  275. # [12:39] <Philip`> (and people who do care about writing valid pages will clearly go to whatever extreme lengths are necessary to make their pages valid, so we can make it as hard as we want)
  276. # [12:41] <jgraham> There seems to be some idea that having alt as a validity requirement makes authours who would otherwise not have cared about writing alt text suddenly write good, useful alt text
  277. # [12:41] <jgraham> This is just the extension of that argument
  278. # [12:41] <beowulf> Philip`: and making those people that care enough a small isolated island really helps them be advocates for Doing The Right Thing
  279. # [12:41] <Philip`> It seems plausible to believe that telling people to do X (perhaps via a validator's error messages) will result in more people doing X
  280. # [12:41] <Philip`> and the question is how many more people will that be, and how does it balance against the costs
  281. # [12:42] <beowulf> the people that use a validator aren't the people you need to talk to about @alt usage, i believe
  282. # [12:42] <beowulf> (in IRC, what's the channel mode to switch off cynicism?)
  283. # [12:43] <jgraham> Philip`: Sure, if X is "write alt text". But the X we should actually care about is "write accessible pages"
  284. # [12:43] <jgraham> beowulf: In this channel I think you /leave
  285. # [12:43] <beowulf> lol
  286. # [12:43] <hsivonen> I notice that the alt wiki page doesn't say what the alt TF wants rendering clients (browser+AT) to do and doesn't say what they want authoring tools to do
  287. # [12:44] <hsivonen> In my opinion, the right order to deal with things is 1) establish what rendering clients should do (in a way that is compatible with existing content)
  288. # [12:44] <hsivonen> 2) Establish what authoring tools should do considering what rendering clients should do
  289. # [12:45] <hsivonen> 3) Make sure that the validity definition is broad enough not to flag as invalid output from authoring tools that follow the advice for authoring tools
  290. # [12:50] <hsivonen> wow. the wisc list archive UI is indeed fantastically bad
  291. # [12:50] <Philip`> The <time> restriction kind of reminds me of the <img alt="{whatever}"> idea, in that it adds some arbitrary restrictions that make automated generation of markup really painful because you've got worry about all the new edge cases
  292. # [12:53] <Philip`> There should be a counterpart of Postel's law, like "Be liberal in producing metadata; be selective in accepting it from others", like you should mark up all times with <time> because that's easier to working out precisely when there's a use case for marking it up, and the consumer can decide whether to bother with your metadata or not
  293. # [12:54] <Philip`> s/easier to/easier than/
  294. # [12:55] <Philip`> It avoids the problem of problem of forcing producers (who see the <time> element, and see a time value in their markup) to twist their minds to view everything from the consumer side (to work out whether this a time value that someone's going to copy into the calendar)
  295. # [12:55] <Philip`> s/problem of//
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  297. # [13:09] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  298. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: should consumers be required to support e.g. the Mayan calendar if a blogger wants to image (s)he is blogging from the height of the Mayan civilazation?
  299. # [13:10] <hsivonen> *civilization
  300. # [13:13] <olliej> hsivonen: yes, because that would be awesome
  301. # [13:13] <olliej> :D
  302. # [13:14] <hsivonen> olliej: what about the Y2012 problem? :-)
  303. # [13:14] <olliej> hsivonen: what problem? ;D
  304. # [13:15] <hsivonen> olliej: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-03-27-maya-2012_n.htm
  305. # [13:15] <olliej> hsivonen: you're not suggesting there will still be people left to complain are you?
  306. # [13:15] <olliej> hsivonen: :D
  307. # [13:16] * pauld_ is now known as pauld
  308. # [13:16] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-211-237.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  309. # [13:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: No, because that would be very rare, whereas it'd be very common for software to take a nice simple ISO8601ish date object and try to serialise it into a <time> but now they've got to add extra checks for year>0 to avoid producing invalid markup
  310. # [13:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: if common libraries are consistent in their serialization of negative seconds since the epoch to earlier than 1 Jan 0001, I suppose that might be OK
  311. # [13:23] <hsivonen> but if common libraries can't handle dates before 1 Jan 0001 consistently, I think it's not worth the implementation and QA effort
  312. # [13:25] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-5a5f3aed58543803) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  313. # [13:26] <Philip`> $ perl -MDateTime -le'print new DateTime(year=>-100)'
  314. # [13:26] <Philip`> -0100-01-01T00:00:00
  315. # [13:26] <Philip`> Seems to work fine there
  316. # [13:26] <Philip`> (It's documented that year 0 exists, so year -100 is 101 BC)
  317. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: so if you take the seconds since epoch from Perl and give them to Java, do you get the same proleptic Gregorian date serialization?
  318. # [13:29] * Quits: webben_ (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-8ac99ca3e0c6ded4) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  319. # [13:44] <jgraham> datetime(-100,0,0)
  320. # [13:44] <jgraham> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  321. # [13:44] <jgraham> ValueError Traceback (most recent call last)
  322. # [13:44] <jgraham> /home/jgraham/html5lib/trunk/<ipython console> in <module>()
  323. # [13:44] <jgraham> ValueError: year is out of range
  324. # [13:46] <jgraham> (datetime(0,1,1) which has valid month and day values also doesn't work, fwiw)
  325. # [13:49] <Philip`> hsivonen: Java always seems to drop the minus sign when serialising years
  326. # [13:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: Python and Java are enough of reasons for me not to want pre-0001 years
  327. # [13:50] <Philip`> hsivonen: (I can't easily get seconds-since-epoch from Perl since it does some 32-bit maths, but that doesn't seem a real problem since you can use strings for communication between languages)
  328. # [13:51] * Philip` doesn't know if there's a better way to serialise dates in Java - he was just use Data.toString, and also the annoyingly complex SimpleDateFormat
  329. # [13:52] <Philip`> *Date.toString
  330. # [13:52] <Philip`> (Having a method that takes a date and returns a string would clearly be too simple for SimpleDateFormat, so it wants an input StringBuffer and a FieldPosition too)
  331. # [13:54] <Philip`> http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/ - looks like someone didn't like Java's date/time library
  332. # [13:58] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-89-133-232-199.catv.broadband.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
  333. # [14:02] <Philip`> jgraham: Consuming software in Python would simply check if year > 0 and if so then it would decide to ignore that <time> element
  334. # [14:03] <jgraham> Philip`: Then it would fail testcases, etc.
  335. # [14:03] <Philip`> It already has to check if year <= 9999
  336. # [14:04] <Philip`> so it's already incompatible with the range of <time>
  337. # [14:04] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (Excess Flood)
  338. # [14:04] <jgraham> Ah, well we should reduce it to have the same range
  339. # [14:04] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  340. # [14:05] <jgraham> Although practically no one seems to care about <time> for very large years
  341. # [14:05] <Philip`> And if we find a language/library that fails on dates before 1970 and after 2038 then we should reduce <time> to that range too?
  342. # [14:05] <Philip`> jgraham: Maybe practically no one cares, but it would fail test cases
  343. # [14:06] <jgraham> Philip`: Depends ho significant a language/library it is
  344. # [14:06] <jgraham> Are there any popular langauges that are known to fail for a smaller range and for which simple workarounds are not avalaible
  345. # [14:07] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-161-226.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  346. # [14:08] <Philip`> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_38_0/doc/html/date_time/gregorian.html says it's limited to 1400-Jan-01 to 9999-Dec-31
  347. # [14:10] <jgraham> Hmm that's pretty annoying
  348. # [14:10] <jgraham> It does sugest limiting to 4-digit years is sensible
  349. # [14:12] <jgraham> Or rather, maximum 4-digit
  350. # [14:17] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-97ecb3240f8ea6e4)
  351. # [14:23] <Philip`> http://uk2.php.net/manual/en/datetime.add.php - "interval: The amount to be added. For the date use "P3D", "P3M", "P3Y" or a combination of the three e.g. "P2M5D" (Y = Years, M = Months, D = Days.) MUST BE YEAR MONTH DAY FORMAT "P5Y", "P5M2D", "P5Y4D". For the time use "T3H", "T3M", "T3S" or or a combination of the three e.g. "T5H20M" (H = Hours, M = Minutes, S = Seconds). For dateTime use "P5D2M4YT5H20M". The digit before the letter (NOT P or T) can b
  352. # [14:24] <Philip`> ...What?
  353. # [14:24] <Philip`> Are the people who wrote this API literally insane?
  354. # [14:29] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
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  356. # [14:35] * felix_da_catz is now known as felix-da-catz_zz
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  359. # [14:43] * Joins: webben_ (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-553a439330b6d7e0)
  360. # [14:43] * Philip` sees http://fhtr.blogspot.com/2009/03/anatomy-of-canvas-3d-extension.html
  361. # [14:44] <Philip`> "with a 7x7 gaussian blur kernel over a 256x256 Firefox logo (decomposed into a horizontal blur and a vertical blur.) JavaScript took 0.8 seconds to do a single blur. With GLSL, it took 0.4 seconds to do a thousand blurs." - I don't think any amount of clever JITting is likely to beat that
  362. # [14:45] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s55927ef8.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  363. # [14:46] <olliej> Philip`: it's very easy to write a very slow convolution in js, but yes, if you throw pixel manipulation at something that is built from the ground up to do nothing but pixel manipulation, it's going to do well
  364. # [14:46] <olliej> Philip`: i would expect a gpu to easily be at least 100x faster than a C impl
  365. # [14:47] <Philip`> I suppose this is a bit irrelevant in practice because you could just blur the image once and send it as a static file across the network, instead of getting your users to blur it :-)
  366. # [14:47] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-77-239.dynamic.amis.net)
  367. # [14:48] <olliej> Philip`: unless you're writing photoshop
  368. # [14:48] <olliej> or something
  369. # [14:48] <Philip`> If you're writing Photoshop you probably care about precision, so you wouldn't rely on the GPU to get the maths right
  370. # [14:48] <Philip`> Actually I suppose that's totally untrue
  371. # [14:49] <Philip`> particularly since you'd have real-time previews of effects, where you don't care about precision
  372. # [14:49] <Philip`> and maybe modern GPUs can do proper floating-point maths now
  373. # [14:49] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-97ecb3240f8ea6e4) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  374. # [14:49] <olliej> Philip`: some can
  375. # [14:50] <olliej> Philip`: people keep saying canvas 3d should expose shaders, i'm like noooooo
  376. # [14:50] <Philip`> (where "proper" means "conforming to IEEEwhatever")
  377. # [14:50] <Philip`> I think Canvas 3D without shaders would be pretty rubbish in practice, because it'd be painful and you couldn't do anything interesting with it
  378. # [14:51] <olliej> Philip`: the variation in a) what the maths actually produces b) what shaders can actually get compiled on given hardware varies dramatically c) running arbitrary untrusted content on the gpu is a really really really bad plan
  379. # [14:51] <Philip`> In the last few years of pre-shader OpenGL you at least had vendor extensions to get similar effects
  380. # [14:51] <Philip`> and without shaders your content will all look like VRML and people will laugh at you
  381. # [14:52] <olliej> people coped without shaders for years and years and years
  382. # [14:52] <Philip`> but I can't imagine it working decently with shaders either, so I've kind of given up on the idea for now
  383. # [14:52] <Philip`> olliej: They did, but that was ages ago and I can't imagine it being visually acceptable now
  384. # [14:52] <olliej> quake3 is still used as a benchmark today
  385. # [14:53] <olliej> halflife/cs was still very popular for years after becoming graphically obsolete (hl/cs was based in quake2's engine iirc)
  386. # [14:53] <Philip`> olliej: (In terms of security, I'd probably be more worried about driver bugs in shader compilers rather than in the actual execution on the GPU)
  387. # [14:54] * Quits: webben_ (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-553a439330b6d7e0) (Remote closed the connection)
  388. # [14:54] <Philip`> olliej: (And interoperability is certainly a problem - the very first Canvas 3D example I wrote worked with NVIDIA drivers on Windows but not with NVIDIA drivers on OS X, because I used a clamp() function in a shader)
  389. # [14:54] <olliej> Philip`: while(true); in a shader, on a gpu that supports true conditional branching == hung gpu
  390. # [14:54] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-e8bf6b18549a5129)
  391. # [14:57] <Philip`> olliej: Hmm, good point about infinite loops
  392. # [14:57] <Philip`> GLSL says "Non-terminating loops are allowed. The consequences of very long or non-terminating loops are platform dependent." which doesn't help much
  393. # [14:58] <olliej> Philip`: if you have good drivers they will kill the shader (eventually)
  394. # [14:58] <olliej> iirc that will take out the app however
  395. # [14:58] <olliej> maybe i'm wrong
  396. # [14:58] <olliej> it's been a long time since i did anything really gpu related
  397. # [14:59] * Quits: danbri_ (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  398. # [14:59] <Philip`> olliej: I'd imagine Canvas 3D uses would include games (which would compete with non-browser-based games), adverts (like shiny rotatable 3D iPhones for you to examine), and I can't really think of much else
  399. # [14:59] <Philip`> and both those cases seem to need modern decent-quality graphics (i.e. shaders)
  400. # [14:59] <jgraham> Philip`: They wwouldn't really have to compete with non-rowser-based games
  401. # [15:00] <jgraham> People don't really expect to play GTA in their browser
  402. # [15:00] <jgraham> They expect to be able to play tetris
  403. # [15:00] <olliej> Philip`: i think a canvas capable of doing sprite/layers etc would be a good intermediate step
  404. # [15:00] <olliej> but then
  405. # [15:01] <olliej> you could basically use css :D
  406. # [15:01] <Philip`> jgraham: They still expect to be able to play a decent-quality Tetris, e.g. if it's 2D then it should have pretty sprites and everything
  407. # [15:01] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Connection timed out)
  408. # [15:01] <jgraham> Philip`: Sure. But the level of graphics you need to make an acceptable tetris are lower than those needed for a 3D shooter
  409. # [15:01] <Philip`> jgraham: so if they play a game that is 3D, they should have similar expectations of quality, and they don't want it to look like http://www.dmp.cz/rt3d/onsi/diplomka/images/bitmanagement_neruda.jpg
  410. # [15:02] <Philip`> and the only sensible way to get decent lighting and shadows and materials is by using shaders
  411. # [15:05] <Philip`> (and the methods used in e.g. Quake are not sensible, because they require hours of preprocessing and large texture maps and static geometry stuff, since they're just cheating)
  412. # [15:05] <Philip`> s/stuff/and stuff/
  413. # [15:05] <olliej> Philip`: hours of preprocessing == decade or two ago
  414. # [15:05] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
  415. # [15:06] <olliej> Philip`: that said, yes, there are many reasons i haven't done any canvas-3d like thing in wk
  416. # [15:06] <Philip`> olliej: Okay, so maybe it's more like seconds now :-)
  417. # [15:06] <Philip`> olliej: but it's still annoyingly limited and painful to write code that way, particularly when it's just an artifact of the API and you know the hardware is capable of so much more
  418. # [15:07] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-77-239.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  419. # [15:07] <olliej> Philip`: doom3 recomputes the level BSP for every frame -- that used to be an half and hour or something back when quake 3 was released
  420. # [15:07] <olliej> Philip`: ah ha
  421. # [15:07] <olliej> Philip`: you *don't*
  422. # [15:08] <olliej> websites don't have minimum requirements in the same way shop purchased software does
  423. # [15:08] <olliej> eg. you have a much more varied set of platforms
  424. # [15:08] <Philip`> Sure they do
  425. # [15:08] <Philip`> "You must install the Flash plugin"
  426. # [15:08] <Philip`> "This site requires 1024x768 resolution"
  427. # [15:08] <Philip`> etc
  428. # [15:09] <olliej> Philip`: yes, and that just means people complain about your site not working
  429. # [15:09] <Philip`> Canvex has minimum requirements that exclude a majority of all people
  430. # [15:09] <Philip`> and nobody has complained to me about it not working in IE :-)
  431. # [15:10] <Philip`> Even integrated graphics and mobile phones can do GLSL now, so in five years it's not really going to be an issue
  432. # [15:11] <Philip`> (Also I think the Mozilla people wanted to use Mesa to implement shaders in software when it's not supported by hardware, though I don't know if that's possible or practical)
  433. # [15:12] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  434. # [15:13] * Philip` wonders if Doom 3's BSPing has the same output as Q3's, or if it does it much more loosely and relies more on the graphics card to cope with unnecessary polygons
  435. # [15:15] * Philip` remembers seeing some discussion of lots of complex terrain LOD algorithms, and then someone suggesting just throwing all the polygons at the GPU and letting it cope with them all itself, which actually worked surprisingly well in their example
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  440. # [15:22] <hsivonen> hrm. jgraham's test case at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=500781 seems to be gone / unresponsive
  441. # [15:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, the server seems to be down
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  444. # [15:32] <hsivonen> I wonder if it is significant if scripts run immediately upon </script> or if timeouts/intervals have an opportunity to run between </script> being tokenized and the script starting running
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  461. # [16:47] <Lachy> note to self: never mention on public-html that there is a potential issue about what to name something.
  462. # [16:48] * Lachy tries to stop the bikeshedding and ask people to focus on the real content of the HTML 5 Reference
  463. # [16:48] * rubys likes blue. Or is it red these days? :-)
  464. # [16:49] <Lachy> I like blue too
  465. # [16:50] <Lachy> I just find it strange that of the 5 responses to my email about the HTML5 reference, all of them have focussed on what to call polyglot documents, rather than providing any useful feedback about what I had written in the other sections
  466. # [16:51] <svl_> "strange"? You must be new here.
  467. # [16:51] <svl_> *g*
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  470. # [16:54] <jgraham> Lachy: Call them Bob
  471. # [16:54] <jgraham> Bonus points if you can make it sound like Blackadder
  472. # [16:59] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  473. # [17:03] <Lachy> jgraham, I never watched Blackadder, so I'm not sure what you mean
  474. # [17:06] <jgraham> Lachy: Rowan Atkinson who plays blackadder has a speech impediment that makes it difficult for him to pronounce b sounds. So in one episode they introduced a character called "bob" which he found very difficult to say. As a result... well I don't knoww how to explain it but the way he says it is memorable
  475. # [17:07] <jgraham> It kind of builds up gently then suddenly pops out
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  479. # [17:18] * beowulf replied to lachy's tweet with 'good work' but now considers asking for it in pink
  480. # [17:19] <gsnedders> pink? I'd rather have it in green, personally.
  481. # [17:19] <gsnedders> But more important is what to make the roof of.
  482. # [17:20] * Quits: svl_ (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  483. # [17:20] * gsnedders is sure he should remember who svl is
  484. # [17:22] <hsivonen> hmm. all of Steven Pemberton's posts to public-html pertain to issues arising from using colonified attribute names in text/html: http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=&hdr-1-name=from&hdr-1-query=steven.pemberton%40cwi.nl&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-html
  485. # [17:25] <virtuelv_> hsivonen: does validator.nu offer a json interface?
  486. # [17:25] <hsivonen> virtuelv_: yes. (with callbacks and without)
  487. # [17:25] <hsivonen> virtuelv_: &out=json&callback=foo
  488. # [17:25] <virtuelv_> thanks
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  499. # [18:10] <Lachy> woah, I think I need to take a break from editing the HTML5 Reference. I didn't realise how late it had gotten here. Although, I've managed to do a fair bit on it today.
  500. # [18:13] * gsnedders wonders whether he can send comments without getting bikesheded
  501. # [18:14] * Joins: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  502. # [18:20] <Lachy> gsnedders, just avoid issues about the name of polyglot documents and you'll be fine
  503. # [18:20] <gsnedders> Wanna bet?
  504. # [18:20] <gsnedders> :)
  505. # [18:21] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  506. # [18:21] * rubys will take that bet too
  507. # [18:21] <gsnedders> rubys: Which way?
  508. # [18:21] <rubys> same side as you
  509. # [18:21] <gsnedders> Ah, another realist.
  510. # [18:21] <gsnedders> :P
  511. # [18:22] * Lachy bets $2.50 on the bikeshed being painted green
  512. # [18:24] * hsivonen wants papayawhip
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  529. # [19:44] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Adocument.getElementsByTagName(%22div%22)%5B0%5D.innerHTML%20%3D%20%22%3Cbase%20href%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%3E%3Cp%3E%3Ca%20href%3D%2F%3Efoo%22%3B%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  530. # [19:44] <gsnedders> Where does the link link?
  531. # [19:45] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Awindow.onload%20%3D%20function()%20{%0Adocument.getElementsByTagName(%22div%22)[0].innerHTML%20%3D%20%22%3Cbase%20href%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%3E%3Cp%3E%3Ca%20href%3D%2F%3Efoo%22%3B%0A}%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  532. # [19:45] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  533. # [19:45] <gsnedders> That's needed for compat. with some browsers
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  550. # [20:16] <hdh> in chrome, both to http://example.com/
  551. # [20:17] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@59.94.243.98)
  552. # [20:17] <hdh> firefox trunk, http://software.hixie.ch/
  553. # [20:17] <gsnedders> Got IE?
  554. # [20:17] <gsnedders> In HTML 5, http://example.com/
  555. # [20:18] * Hixie wonders what he did that causes long urls to screw up in terminal now
  556. # [20:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: n00b
  557. # [20:19] <hdh> IE6 http://example.com/
  558. # [20:20] <Hixie> score, the spec wins again
  559. # [20:21] <gsnedders> IE7: http://software.hixie.ch/
  560. # [20:21] <Hixie> d'oh
  561. # [20:21] <Hixie> is there a /saved url for these tests?
  562. # [20:21] <gsnedders> 25 is a more complex example but doesn't seem to work in IE7
  563. # [20:22] <gsnedders> But otherwise no
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  565. # [20:23] * gsnedders is back to reverse-engineering base URL behaviour
  566. # [20:24] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%3Efoo%0A%3Cbase%20href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%22%3E%0A%3Cp%3Ebar
  567. # [20:24] <gsnedders> That moves base to head in both Saf and FF
  568. # [20:24] <gsnedders> Doesn't in HTML 5
  569. # [20:27] <Hixie> the <base> handling in the spec is based on some research of what pages need in practice, iirc
  570. # [20:27] <Hixie> i wanted to simplify what the browsers do now since they're not all perfectly compatible
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  576. # [20:53] * gsnedders goes insane
  577. # [20:53] <gsnedders> I have this one bit of hair that will not stay tied back today.
  578. # [20:53] * Quits: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org) (SendQ exceeded)
  579. # [20:54] <Philip`> Cut it off
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  588. # [21:24] * gsnedders wonders what Mellblomenator references
  589. # [21:24] <gsnedders> I mean, that _has_ to be a joke.
  590. # [21:27] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@207.47.36.190.static.nextweb.net)
  591. # [21:29] <gsnedders> Anyone able to give me a hand with writing a security considerations section?
  592. # [21:29] <Philip`> gsnedders: Seems quite likely that it's referring to the same person as http://www.mellblom.us/blog/
  593. # [21:29] <Philip`> particularly since the photo on that site indicates the person works for Google
  594. # [21:30] <Philip`> and the latest blog post talks about the Mellblom Browser, mere days before the similar text was inserted into HTML5
  595. # [21:30] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  596. # [21:41] <Hixie> damn, you're good
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  601. # [21:59] * rubys wonders who Hixie is referring to...
  602. # [22:02] <Hixie> philip
  603. # [22:05] * Philip` used his incredible skills to type Mellblom into Live Search and find that page
  604. # [22:06] <Hixie> and you actually found it?
  605. # [22:06] <Hixie> impressive
  606. # [22:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: How do you keep spam off whatwg?
  607. # [22:07] <Philip`> I used my supersight abilities to look through plastic and liquid crystals to see the first search result
  608. # [22:07] <gsnedders> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/03/hair-in-gait.html
  609. # [22:07] <gsnedders> oh dear…
  610. # [22:08] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  611. # [22:08] <Hixie> gsnedders: off spam where?
  612. # [22:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: I mean the whatwg@whatwg.org list
  613. # [22:08] <Hixie> only subscribers can post
  614. # [22:09] <gsnedders> That's all?
  615. # [22:11] <Hixie> yup
  616. # [22:11] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host86-133-17-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  617. # [22:12] <roc> hang on, are there multiple Philip Taylors?
  618. # [22:12] <Hixie> yes
  619. # [22:12] <gsnedders> roc: Yes
  620. # [22:12] <Hixie> two
  621. # [22:12] <Hixie> both of which have used at least two different e-mail addresses
  622. # [22:12] <roc> wow, that explains a lot!
  623. # [22:12] <Hixie> possibly three
  624. # [22:12] <Hixie> lol
  625. # [22:12] <gsnedders> Three
  626. # [22:15] <Philip`> I'm pretty sure I've used at least three addresses
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  628. # [22:17] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@207.47.36.190.static.nextweb.net)
  629. # [22:19] <gsnedders> roc: One has "Philip TAYLOR" in the From header and isn't on IRC; the other has "Philip Taylor" in the From header and is Philip` on Freenode and Philip on irc.w3.org
  630. # [22:19] <roc> thanks
  631. # [22:22] <Philip`> I'm the one who's on IRC
  632. # [22:23] <Hixie> they are otherwise undistinguishable
  633. # [22:23] * Hixie ducks
  634. # [22:24] <Hixie> s/u/i/
  635. # [22:24] * Philip` hopes that substitution was meant to apply to the last-but-one line
  636. # [22:25] <Hixie> yes
  637. # [22:25] <Hixie> you can't apply substitutions to what i'm doing, silly
  638. # [22:25] * Hixie ducks again
  639. # [22:29] <Hixie> btw roc, re your mail, things out of the document shouldn't delay the event
  640. # [22:29] <Hixie> i'll make it clearer at some point
  641. # [22:30] <roc> images do
  642. # [22:30] <roc> boris says this matters for existing content
  643. # [22:30] <roc> image preloading stuff
  644. # [22:30] <Hixie> really?
  645. # [22:30] <Hixie> wow
  646. # [22:30] <Hixie> good to know
  647. # [22:30] <Hixie> well then i guess it's up to you
  648. # [22:31] <Hixie> i can go either way
  649. # [22:31] <Hixie> per spec right now technically they do even out of their doc, though i should make it clearer either way
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  652. # [22:37] <roc> I think video should be consistent with images
  653. # [22:38] <Hixie> right-o
  654. # [22:41] * gsnedders waves his maths working at #whatwg
  655. # [22:41] <gsnedders> Anyone able to see the mistake?
  656. # [22:42] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  657. # [22:42] <Philip`> gsnedders: I think you calculated x wrongly
  658. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Philip`: Nah, that's given.
  659. # [22:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, maybe you got y wrong then
  660. # [22:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: There is no y.
  661. # [22:43] <gsnedders> This is question five, BTW.
  662. # [22:44] <Philip`> Hmm, beats me
  663. # [22:44] <gsnedders> It would work if I got ln 2/3 + ln 2/3 and not ln 2/3 + ln 3/2
  664. # [22:55] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-89-133-232-199.catv.broadband.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
  665. # [23:04] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  666. # [23:05] <gsnedders> "A solid is formed by rotating the curve $y = e^{-2x}$ between $x = 0$ and $x = 1$ through $360\circ$ about the $x$-axis. Calculate the volume of the solid that is formed."
  667. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Why would I ever want to be able to do this?
  668. # [23:05] <gsnedders> :P
  669. # [23:08] <roc> I've got one of those at home
  670. # [23:08] <roc> makes a great toilet plunger
  671. # [23:09] <gsnedders> And Boris realizes I'm being dumb on /.
  672. # [23:09] <gsnedders> roc: So what's its volume?
  673. # [23:09] <gsnedders> (Or rather: why would I care?)
  674. # [23:10] <roc> so you know how much rubber to buy to make it
  675. # [23:10] <gsnedders> But then surely I care about the circumference at the bottom and not the volume?
  676. # [23:10] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-e8bf6b18549a5129) (No route to host)
  677. # [23:11] <roc> I give up
  678. # [23:12] * gsnedders concludes that it has no use and ignores the question
  679. # [23:13] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@c-71-202-109-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  680. # [23:18] <Hixie> why is knowing the volume not useful?
  681. # [23:18] <Hixie> for the case roc gave?
  682. # [23:18] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.0.36.64)
  683. # [23:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: Isn't it just something like integral(pi*y^2, dx)?
  684. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, there's some equation, yeah
  685. # [23:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: What I mean is "Isn't it exactly integral(pi*y^2, dx)? (except if that's wrong then it's just because I've not spent much time thinking about it, not because I'm stupid, honest)"
  686. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: The answer to which is "I don't know because I can't be bothered looking it up or thinking about it."
  687. # [23:21] <Hixie> is RT retweet?
  688. # [23:21] <Lachy> Hixie, I think it is.
  689. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah
  690. # [23:21] <Lachy> today's the first time I've seen that too
  691. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Sorry Hixie, forgive me :P
  692. # [23:22] <Philip`> gsnedders: You don't need to think about it, it's just obvious that the volume is the sum of lots of discs, and sums are integrals, and discs have volume pi*r^2*dx, and that's about it :-)
  693. # [23:23] <Philip`> and the mere existence of a question is enough reason to attempt to solve it
  694. # [23:25] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@c-71-202-109-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  695. # [23:26] <gsnedders> http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/3331908722/
  696. # [23:26] <gsnedders> (MLW take note)
  697. # [23:32] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-161-226.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  698. # [23:33] <Hixie> i sure hope this RT thing doesn't take off
  699. # [23:33] * Hixie reads the latest AB minutes and raises several eyebrows
  700. # [23:34] <Dashiva> RT?
  701. # [23:34] <Lachy> AB?
  702. # [23:34] <Lachy> Dashiva, re-tweet
  703. # [23:35] <Dashiva> Is that the twitter-IRC interface thing?
  704. # [23:35] <Lachy> no
  705. # [23:36] <deltab> http://bloggingbits.com/the-art-and-science-of-retweeting-for-twitteraholics/
  706. # [23:36] <deltab> reposting, in other words
  707. # [23:36] <Lachy> Dashiva, see http://twitter.com/gsnedders/statuses/1285533654 and http://twitter.com/migrosch/statuses/1283809127
  708. # [23:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: URL?
  709. # [23:37] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  710. # [23:38] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  711. # [23:41] <Dashiva> Wow. Retweeting sounds like dupe heaven
  712. # [23:43] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  713. # [23:45] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  714. # [23:45] <deltab> surely it'd be better to give a link and your own thoughts or at least rephrasing
  715. # [23:45] <rubys> Hixie: ping?
  716. # [23:49] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
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  720. # [23:55] <Hixie> rubys: pong
  721. # [23:56] <rubys> My read is that the discussion on the proposed Excerpt License is simply going to rediscover the original use cases that we already sent, after a lot of email.
  722. # [23:57] <rubys> It occurs to me that if you happened to agree with the last two paragraphs of this: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0144.html> and were to say so, it might (just might) shorten the process a bit.
  723. # [23:57] <Hixie> that would certainly follow past patterns of public-html e-mail
  724. # [23:57] <rubys> Of course, if you disagree, feel free to say that also
  725. # [23:58] <Hixie> seems reasonable to me, which is why i didn't post again to the list after saying my bit about license proliferation :-)
  726. # [23:59] <rubys> I'm just suggesting that you do consider posting again. You're call. I agree with you about license proliferation, but given the brokenness of not having a dialog, it unfortunately could be seen as us raising the goal posts.
  727. # Session Close: Fri Mar 06 00:00:00 2009

The end :)