/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 06 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> rubys: i disagree with your earlier point (though i don't care enough to say so on the list), in that i think that the change you talk about happened in 2004
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> and the w3c license is really a change back to the old ways
  6. # [00:00] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  7. # [00:00] <Hixie> er
  8. # [00:00] <Hixie> <Hixie> rubys: i disagree with your earlier point (though i don't care enough to say so on the list), in that i think that the change you talk about happened in 2004
  9. # [00:00] <Hixie> <Hixie> and the w3c license is really a change back to the old ways
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> but if you want me to say +1 then i'm happy to do so
  11. # [00:01] <Hixie> it might set up a bad precedent, though :-)
  12. # [00:01] <Hixie> (public-html had a bad problem with people +1'ing each other historically)
  13. # [00:01] <rubys> your call
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  17. # [00:09] <Hixie> rubys: sent
  18. # [00:09] <Hixie> i really wish dragging the w3c into modernity wasn't so painful a process
  19. # [00:12] <gsnedders> Well, you should be less demanding, and you should just be a post-modernist.
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  35. # [01:06] <Hixie> woot, done <canvas>.
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  37. # [01:08] <gsnedders> This endless requirement of CSS implementers is for it to be applying while iterating in tree order?
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  47. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I see you're using tircd
  48. # [01:36] <takkaria> Hixie: what are you actually doing atm?
  49. # [01:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it roxors
  50. # [01:39] <Hixie> takkaria: going through and providing non-normative descriptions for all the apis aimed at authors rather than implementors
  51. # [01:40] <Hixie> takkaria: look for the green <dl>s e.g. at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#images which i just did
  52. # [01:41] <Hixie> if you're using a decent browser you can try one of the experimental alternative style sheets, too
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  55. # [01:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I been using tircd for a while too.. definitely rocks the bells
  56. # [01:46] * heycam is just trying it, seems good
  57. # [01:47] <heycam> i was just using the web interface before. polling is for suckers... :/
  58. # [01:49] <Hixie> tircd makes twitter usable for me
  59. # [01:52] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@c-68-49-245-59.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  60. # [01:54] <gavin> oh hey
  61. # [01:55] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  62. # [01:55] <gavin> I hacked a mozbot to broadcast tweets onto IRC using the RSS feed
  63. # [01:55] <gavin> that looks much better
  64. # [01:56] <Hixie> tircd is way better than a bot because it makes each user have its own user in your ircclient
  65. # [01:56] <Hixie> it's like bitlbee
  66. # [01:57] <gavin> and it's two-way, right?
  67. # [01:57] <Hixie> with tircd you can follow new people with /invite, find out who people are with /whois, unfollow with /kick, block with /ban, etc
  68. # [01:57] <Hixie> yeah
  69. # [01:57] <Hixie> if you talk it tweets your message
  70. # [01:57] <Hixie> it's the hotness
  71. # [01:59] <tantek_> Hixie, I presume this is the tircd you speak of? http://code.google.com/p/tircd/
  72. # [01:59] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  73. # [02:03] <Hixie> yeah
  74. # [02:06] <annevk> timbl joins the RDFa debate
  75. # [02:06] <annevk> funs
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  77. # [02:15] <Hixie> ok who wants to be the one to tell tim about the bazillions of xmlns:* attributes in legacy content
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  80. # [02:24] <Hixie> 40% done
  81. # [02:30] <annevk> oh lol, I had not read timbl's message yet and just see the part mjs quoted
  82. # [02:30] <annevk> "I can't imagine that there are a lot of people who have accidentally used the string xmlns: inside attribute names in the past. :-)"
  83. # [02:31] <annevk> -- timbl
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  91. # [03:14] <Hixie> oh good, mjs answered that one
  92. # [03:14] <Hixie> i was worried i might have to
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  97. # [03:28] <roc> We should get tbl to be a Mozilla intern for the summer
  98. # [03:29] <Hixie> good luck with that
  99. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> I don't blame anybody for not wanting to work on a browser project
  100. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> most sane people don't want to work in the sausage factory
  101. # [03:35] <Hixie> the problem is the people who want to design the sausage
  102. # [03:35] <Hixie> but haven't worked in the factory
  103. # [03:35] <Hixie> (or not worked in it this century)
  104. # [03:36] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  105. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> new guy in the sausage factory: "hey! spec says you aren't supposed to take that disgusting part of the big/cow/rat-that-got-caught-in-the-chopper and make it into food!" .. guy who's been working in the sausage factory: "Heh. That's what you been eating, friend. For a long time."
  106. # [03:38] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  107. # [03:39] <Hixie> "In fact if we stopped using that part... your digestive system would break down and you'd only be able to eat peanuts for the rest of your life."
  108. # [03:41] * annevk raises an eyebrow
  109. # [03:42] <Hixie> read the AB minutes and raise more! :-)
  110. # [03:42] <roc> how many have you got
  111. # [03:42] <Hixie> ...several.
  112. # [03:48] <karlcow> hmm sausages… yum! Just had a bun bo hue, but would not say no to a sausage
  113. # [03:49] <Hixie> gah i hate the table dom model
  114. # [03:49] <Hixie> does anyone ever even use this nonsense?
  115. # [03:50] <heycam> karlcow, is vietnamese food popular/widely available in france? and is that because of it being a former colony?
  116. # [03:51] * karlcow is waiting for the day of people who wants a spec which is forkable and when the next EvilEmpire Inc comes around with a super marketing force creates a spec which is imposed to the mass of people. Think about Intel Inside, Think MS Word, etc.
  117. # [03:52] <karlcow> heycam: Vietnamese food is popular in France indeed, because of the 100 years of colony of this asian region. (but I'm not in France)
  118. # [03:52] <deltab> Hixie: I've done so, though I've been told the implementations are very slow
  119. # [03:52] <heycam> karlcow, oh right you're in canada, forgot
  120. # [03:52] * Hixie writes half-hearted authoring descriptions for the six thousand apis the table elements have
  121. # [03:52] <Hixie> deltab: curse you! :-P
  122. # [03:53] <deltab> it does seem odd that tables get special attention in the DOM
  123. # [03:53] <karlcow> :) no issue. I moved recently from Japan to Canada. :)
  124. # [03:53] * heycam loves him some cà phê sữa đá
  125. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> claims of threat of spec forking is total FUD
  126. # [03:54] <heycam> (with funky diacritical characters copied from somewhere, since i have no idea how to type them)
  127. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> hmm, guess I shouldn't say that so forcefully
  128. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> um, some people might say that claims of threat of spec forking is total FUD
  129. # [03:55] <Hixie> given html5's history, claims that copyright has any ability to stop spec forking are ridiculous
  130. # [03:55] * MikeSmith caught up in excitement of CSS WG f2f and got carried away
  131. # [03:55] <Hixie> and given html5's present (and its two forks), claims that spec forking are a problem are also ridiculous imho
  132. # [03:56] <Hixie> but i understand that a lot of people are scared
  133. # [03:56] <karlcow> hehe
  134. # [03:56] <Hixie> on another note, why are html5's forks only written by robs
  135. # [03:57] <Hixie> and is roc going to make one too? :-P
  136. # [03:57] <heycam> ha
  137. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> we need some rocspec
  138. # [03:57] <karlcow> I love maciej's message :) 1) and 2) did nothing so let's change the license to achieve the same nothing. huh… hihi That is logical. poooof
  139. # [03:58] <karlcow> a big circus of clowns
  140. # [03:58] <Hixie> oh sheesh, <td> has a whole swathe of apis too
  141. # [03:58] * Hixie cries
  142. # [03:59] <Hixie> the table elements are actually proving more of a pain than <canvas> and <video>!
  143. # [03:59] <Hixie> er, <tr>, not <td>
  144. # [04:00] <roc> I think spec forking could be a problem but copyright threats are not remotely the right solution
  145. # [04:00] <Hixie> food time
  146. # [04:01] <annevk> karlcow?
  147. # [04:01] <roc> *actual* forks that is. The *ability* to fork is essential, *actual* forks are harmful
  148. # [04:01] <annevk> we already have "actual" forks in a way
  149. # [04:03] <karlcow> annevk: my sincere and honest opinion about that is the license is just fine as it has always been. And all the comments around it are FUD. I do not believe in W3C but I trust W3C and its social process. To create a license for prose which protects it and puts it in the hand of a group is a good thing.
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  151. # [04:04] <karlcow> I still have no trust in whatwg social structure because of the way in history they have acted.
  152. # [04:04] <karlcow> I understand perfectly that people can disagree with me and that's fine.
  153. # [04:06] <karlcow> And my trust in the social structure of whatwg can't be improved as long that the whatwg is used as a gun on my head saying if you don't behave as we wish, we (opera, mozilla, apple) will do our own way. That is not acceptable in a social process.
  154. # [04:06] <annevk> you believe the use cases put forward are FUD?
  155. # [04:07] <karlcow> annevk: here… you just put words in my mouth I have not said. Classical!
  156. # [04:07] <annevk> you said that all the comments around the license argument are FUD
  157. # [04:07] <karlcow> yes.
  158. # [04:07] <annevk> use cases are comments around the license argument
  159. # [04:07] <annevk> we want it changed because of the use cases
  160. # [04:08] <karlcow> the use cases are hypothetical cases which never happened.
  161. # [04:08] <annevk> it may be that I don't know what you're saying though; admittedly I often find that difficult
  162. # [04:08] <annevk> karlcow, that's not true
  163. # [04:08] <roc> Henri already cited a case where he was warned not to put spec text in his code
  164. # [04:08] <annevk> karlcow, e.g. hsivonen uses text from the WHATWG draft in his code
  165. # [04:08] <karlcow> for a group of people who say all the time that we live by "real world" dogma
  166. # [04:08] <karlcow> I find it quite amusing
  167. # [04:09] <annevk> karlcow, software copies IDL fragments from drafts
  168. # [04:09] <karlcow> roc: henri cited a case which never happened really and to completion
  169. # [04:09] <gavin> that these things are tolerated but not allowed by the license isn't a very strong argument
  170. # [04:09] <karlcow> someone at w3c asked him to do something and someone reverted his/her decision
  171. # [04:09] <annevk> you still haven't explained how I'm putting words in your mouth
  172. # [04:09] <roc> what's 'completion'? Someone is successfully sued for copyright infringement?
  173. # [04:10] * karlcow took a knife this morning, I could have kill the squirel outside, but I didn't do it. Damn!
  174. # [04:10] <karlcow> roc: yes
  175. # [04:11] <roc> so if the W3C sued someone and lost, you'd say there's still no problem?
  176. # [04:11] <karlcow> if W3C lost the case that would prove that W3C was not in its rights
  177. # [04:11] <roc> to be more precise
  178. # [04:11] <karlcow> Justice system
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  180. # [04:13] <karlcow> annevk: FUD the comments about the license. The use cases were exactly to try to have a practical discussion around the issue. Test cases if you prefer.
  181. # [04:13] <roc> So you're saying that what Henri was doing was not within the letter of the license, but it should be tolerated, and the W3C as a whole will tolerate it even though we know not all W3C people agree
  182. # [04:13] <karlcow> roc: no. I didn't say that
  183. # [04:14] <roc> oh
  184. # [04:14] <karlcow> IMHO what henri was doing was perfectly fine.
  185. # [04:14] <annevk> karlcow, the comments evolve around the use cases
  186. # [04:14] <annevk> karlcow, I'm confused
  187. # [04:15] <karlcow> annevk: it's ok. :) I'm confused with all this discussion, because for me I se No. zill. nada. issues with the W3C License as it is.
  188. # [04:16] <karlcow> and I love opensource and creative commons licenses, but they all have their particular context.
  189. # [04:16] <annevk> some people apparently have an issue with the license
  190. # [04:16] <karlcow> annevk: I see that.
  191. # [04:17] <annevk> at some point people didn't have an issue with Member-only groups either
  192. # [04:17] <annevk> things change
  193. # [04:17] <karlcow> some people have an issue with the existence of the whatwg ;)
  194. # [04:17] <roc> karlcow: you don't think our desire to be able to incorporate spec text in our open source projects is reasonable?
  195. # [04:17] <annevk> karlcow, prolly the same people that are fine with the license :p
  196. # [04:17] <karlcow> roc: it is perfectly reasonnable AND possible today
  197. # [04:17] <gavin> it's always been technically possible
  198. # [04:18] <gavin> but the license does not allow it
  199. # [04:18] <roc> you mean via fair use and other copyright defenses?
  200. # [04:18] <karlcow> roc: yes
  201. # [04:18] <karlcow> never the W3C will sue open source projects
  202. # [04:18] <roc> New Zealand does not have a fair use doctrine, where does that leave me?
  203. # [04:18] <karlcow> that is dumb
  204. # [04:18] <roc> maybe so, but where does that leave me?
  205. # [04:18] <karlcow> but if NextEvelEmpire Inc
  206. # [04:18] <tokamak> SLEEP
  207. # [04:18] * Quits: tokamak (n=rw@c-24-98-185-16.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
  208. # [04:19] <karlcow> does bad things, then there will be room for actions
  209. # [04:19] <gavin> copyright law is not the right tool for that
  210. # [04:20] <karlcow> roc: for me the fear of the new requested license is that it prepares the bed for the NextLevelEmpire Inc.
  211. # [04:20] <roc> copyrighted specs did not slow down Microsoft one iota
  212. # [04:20] <roc> and they will not slow down the next attacker, if it comes
  213. # [04:21] <karlcow> slow down on what?
  214. # [04:21] <karlcow> I'm talking about a technical spec
  215. # [04:21] <roc> developing their own APIs, publishing them, implementing them, evangelizing them
  216. # [04:21] <karlcow> not implementation
  217. # [04:21] <gavin> what are you afraid that NextEvilEmpire will do?
  218. # [04:21] <karlcow> heeeey?
  219. # [04:22] <gavin> if they gain enough credibility at W3C's expense, maybe they deserve it!
  220. # [04:22] <karlcow> [21:48] * karlcow is waiting for the day of people who wants a spec which is forkable and when the next EvilEmpire Inc comes around with a super marketing force creates a spec which is imposed to the mass of people. Think about Intel Inside, Think MS Word, etc.
  221. # [04:22] <roc> that's not really a concrete fear
  222. # [04:23] <annevk> unless you believe in the vast browser wing conspiracy o_O
  223. # [04:23] <gavin> you're talking about "imposing" a spec - they can do that either way, whether they're allowed to copy the original spec text or not
  224. # [04:24] <karlcow> roc: I like open source projects and community projets, I like community social structures giving protection to a body of work with a kind of equilibrium of forces. I do NOT like at all Marketing Department of huge companies. The issue is that many people *believe*.
  225. # [04:25] <roc> I don't understand how marketing departments are relevant here. If you're talking about marketing to the masses, the copyright status of HTML is completely irrelevant to the masses
  226. # [04:25] <karlcow> roc: marketing is what is relevant specifically.
  227. # [04:25] <karlcow> and where the evil comes from most of the time.
  228. # [04:26] <roc> and for marketing, trademarks are what you want
  229. # [04:26] <karlcow> roc: would you accept that W3C trademark html5 ?
  230. # [04:26] <roc> by all means trademark "HTML" or whatever you can get your hands on
  231. # [04:26] <roc> "W3C HTML: The Real Web"
  232. # [04:26] <roc> karlcow: yes
  233. # [04:26] <karlcow> …
  234. # [04:26] * karlcow is lost
  235. # [04:27] <roc> we trademark Firefox
  236. # [04:27] <roc> that's how we protect our brand from evil people who try to sell malware as "Firefox" etc
  237. # [04:28] <roc> no-one is impeded from taking our code and doing what they like with it, they just can't call it "firefox" necessarily
  238. # [04:28] <roc> everybody's happy, except for some misguided Debian users
  239. # [04:28] <karlcow> And some people said that Mozilla was evil because of the trademark.
  240. # [04:29] <roc> they're in the minority, I believe
  241. # [04:29] <karlcow> w3c license case: every's happy, except for some misguided html wg participants
  242. # [04:29] <roc> they probably haven't realized that there actually are people out there offering "Firefox downloads" containing malware
  243. # [04:29] <karlcow> :) i can do sentences too ;)
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  245. # [04:30] <roc> karlcow: everybody's happy except for three out of four browser vendors and other people developing open-source software related to these specs
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  247. # [04:31] <roc> that's a pretty big part of the spec audience
  248. # [04:31] <roc> even the Debian users are pretty happy, they've got their Iceweasel build without the Firefox trademark
  249. # [04:31] <karlcow> roc: for a few people into the browser communities
  250. # [04:32] <roc> I daresay Maciej can speak for Webkit
  251. # [04:32] <karlcow> I think I hear recently that for example for the Mozilla's case, people didn't like when someone was saying "I talk for Mozilla"
  252. # [04:32] <roc> and I doubt anyone at Mozilla would disagree with Jonas or dbaron's position
  253. # [04:32] <roc> we don't all agree about everything but we do tend to agree pretty strongly about our open source licensing
  254. # [04:33] <karlcow> roc: I have nothing against open source code.
  255. # [04:33] <karlcow> quite the opposite
  256. # [04:34] <roc> nevertheless you prefer to put us at legal risk for incorporating spec text in our code
  257. # [04:35] <karlcow> heh http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/
  258. # [04:35] <karlcow> roc: there is no risk.
  259. # [04:37] <roc> We've already been over that. Henri was threatened. There is risk.
  260. # [04:38] <karlcow> and it's where I come with the argument fud. So I guess we will not find a solution today :)
  261. # [04:40] <roc> if you think the people who have spoken out against the license are just "a few of the browser communities", please try to find one person from the Mozilla or Webkit community to speak out in support of the license
  262. # [04:40] <roc> just one
  263. # [04:41] <karlcow> Let's say that you rely on a very rigid and binary interpretation of law.
  264. # [04:41] <karlcow> and I rely on social structures and their organic natures, I rely on humans and need trust for it.
  265. # [04:41] <karlcow> Having been closed of quite a number of participants of this story, my trust is still on the side of the social structure of W3C.
  266. # [04:41] <roc> no, make it two
  267. # [04:41] <karlcow> roc: what does it take to be part of Moz community?
  268. # [04:42] <karlcow> employed by Moz Corp? or anyone participating?
  269. # [04:42] <roc> for the sake of argument, I'll say "commit access to the repository"
  270. # [04:42] <roc> which includes hundreds of non-MoCo people
  271. # [04:42] <karlcow> yep
  272. # [04:42] <roc> that's the funny thing. We in the open source communities advocate using social structures, not copyright law, to prevent forking
  273. # [04:43] <roc> you think that the threat of lawsuit hanging over everyone's head is the way to get people to behave
  274. # [04:43] <karlcow> you still didn't get my opinion, did you?
  275. # [04:43] <karlcow> there is no threat
  276. # [04:44] <roc> if we can have that in writing, then the problem is solved
  277. # [04:45] <roc> although you'd need to extend your amnesty to all downstream recipients of our code, or else we won't be able to distribute our own code under GPL/LGPL
  278. # [04:45] <karlcow> the funny thing is that if the license changes I don't care. If I look carefully in my W3C staff mail archives, I'm even pretty sure I have been advocating at least one or twice for creative commons licenses when I was working at W3C.
  279. # [04:46] <roc> great, then why resist it?
  280. # [04:46] <karlcow> roc: it is not *my* amnesty
  281. # [04:46] <roc> ok, if it's the W3C's policy they can write it down in a binding manner
  282. # [04:47] <karlcow> roc: isn't it what was in the proposal just made by W3C?
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  284. # [04:53] <roc> the latest proposal imposes conditions that make it impossible to distribute derived works of parts of the spec with our code
  285. # [04:53] <roc> where's the amnesty?
  286. # [04:54] <karlcow> roc's rippling
  287. # [04:57] * karlcow is throwing the towel. I tried to explain… but I'm not rigid enough be a wall. License might change, and the world will continue. The only thing I know is that it will still orbit around the sun.
  288. # [04:59] <karlcow> A breed whose testimony is behaviour,
  289. # [04:59] <karlcow> What we are, we are—nativity is answer enough
  290. # [04:59] <karlcow> to objections;
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  294. # [05:27] <annevk> bit annoying that workers have race conditions through cookies
  295. # [05:27] <annevk> hopefully on idiot site starts relying on specifics of execution
  296. # [05:28] <annevk> s/on i/no i/
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  302. # [06:33] <annevk> hmm, I guess I should put http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions in order :/
  303. # [06:35] <annevk> maybe it's very easy to write a script for that
  304. # [06:38] <annevk> I wonder why some values are listed there that are already defined in the specification itself
  305. # [06:48] <annevk> was indeed very easy
  306. # [06:48] <annevk> list = rawdata.split("\n|-\n")
  307. # [06:48] <annevk> list.sort()
  308. # [06:48] <annevk> print "\n|-\n".join(list)
  309. # [06:48] <annevk> well, I also lowercased EditURI first
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  316. # [07:15] <annevk> I removed the values already defined in the spec
  317. # [07:15] <annevk> is there some way to grey out a line in wiki tables to mark it obsolete?
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  345. # [09:29] <hsivonen> does anyone have a reference to the CSS hack the tests the namespace of xmlns="..." on root to determine whether a document is in the HTML or XML mode?
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  362. # [11:03] <hsivonen> streaming XPath impl: http://code.google.com/p/jlibs/wiki/XMLDog
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  364. # [11:35] <Lachy> I updated the list of obsolete elements. http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#obsolete-elements
  365. # [11:35] <Lachy> let me know if I missed any. That's all the elements I found mentioned in the spec
  366. # [11:36] <Lachy> the list does seem a little short though
  367. # [11:38] * Philip` wonders why datagrid isn't a link, in the table just above there
  368. # [11:39] <Philip`> Lachy: Are you aware that the DOM interfaces are (except for their first line) indented by two tabs too many?
  369. # [11:40] <Lachy> Philip`, because the spec stuck a note saying "The API here needs rewriting. Don't implement this right now." between the heading and the <dl class="element">, and so my script to extract it from the spec didn't find it
  370. # [11:40] <Philip`> Ah
  371. # [11:40] <Lachy> whereas, I have a separately maintined datafile from which I generate those tables, which includes datagrid
  372. # [11:41] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/utils/elementdesc.txt
  373. # [11:42] <Lachy> the DOM interfaces are extracted as-is from the spec. They will be replaced with something a lot more author friendly later on
  374. # [11:42] <Lachy> so I'm not too concerned about the indentation now
  375. # [11:43] <Philip`> Also, tabs are aesthetically displeasing and you should indent with spaces instead ;-)
  376. # [11:43] <Lachy> I suppose I could set my editor to use soft tabs instead
  377. # [11:44] <Lachy> which means 4 spaces
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  399. # [13:49] <Lachy> Added description of the html element http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#the-html-element
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  410. # [15:24] <Philip`> Lachy: Perhaps it could do with a few more pixels of left margin on the heading text in those green boxes
  411. # [15:25] <Lachy> ok
  412. # [15:25] <Philip`> By the way, I hope you're not wanting any substantial comments :-p
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  414. # [15:25] * Philip` tries actually reading the text
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  416. # [15:26] <Lachy> Philip`, of course not. Don't even think about provinding any constructive feedback
  417. # [15:26] <Lachy> *providing
  418. # [15:27] <Philip`> s/langauge/language/
  419. # [15:28] <Philip`> "Every document must begin with this element" - that seems to be mixing the concepts of elements and tags - the document as a DOM tree doesn't have a 'beginning', and the document as a character stream has tags rather than elements
  420. # [15:28] <Philip`> (Or if it's not mixing elements and tags, it's mixing trees and character streams)
  421. # [15:29] <Lachy> The character stream needs to begin with the DOCTYPE (possibly preceded by whitespace or comments)
  422. # [15:30] <Lachy> how do you suggest I rephrase it?
  423. # [15:31] <Philip`> Maybe something like "The html tag must be the first tag in the document" would be more accurate? (with a subsequent paragraph clarifying that that really means "The html tag must, if not omitted entirely, be the first tag in the document")
  424. # [15:32] <Philip`> I don't know if that's just more confusing, though
  425. # [15:33] <Philip`> The discussion of languages should link to something describing what languages are, e.g. that they're two-character codes from some list somewhere so you write lang="en" and not lang="english"
  426. # [15:35] <Philip`> (Maybe that'd be part of the definition of the global lang attribute, once it's defined?)
  427. # [15:37] <Philip`> (If so, it might still be good to mention it explicitly in the html definition, since that's where most people are going to use lang, and most aren't going to bother following every single cross-reference in the document)
  428. # [15:41] <Philip`> It seems like it'd be a good idea to include the doctype in XHTML examples, because people will skim through the document and see a block of code that uses the element they want to use, and copy and paste it and use it as their own document, and never know that they should add a doctype
  429. # [15:42] <Lachy> the lang and xml:lang attributes will be described in the global attributes section, and that will elaborate on langauge tags
  430. # [15:42] <Philip`> If they're advanced authors, they might notice that it's XHTML, and think "ooh, XHTML is the cool new thing so I'll copy that one rather than the HTML example" and have the same problem
  431. # [15:43] <Lachy> the way I have it set up is that "HTML Example" means an HTML only examle, "XHTML Example" means XHTML only, and "Example" means it's compatible with both.
  432. # [15:44] <Philip`> Indeed, but nobody's going to care when they're copying-and-pasting chunks of code
  433. # [15:44] <Philip`> so it's beneficial to improve the chances of them copying-and-pasting a chunk of code that has a doctype and won't be quirks mode
  434. # [15:45] <Philip`> (Hmm, isn't the "XHTML Example" for <html> already compatible with both, so it should be "Example"?)
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  436. # [15:49] <Philip`> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001234.html - "HTML Validation: Does It Matter?"
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  438. # [15:55] <Dashiva> ho ho: "Google actually ranks it's indexed pages. The more valid the (X)HTML of your pages, the higher it'll appear in a search."
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  440. # [15:57] * felix-da-catz_zz is now known as felix_da_catz
  441. # [15:58] <Philip`> Dashiva: Shhhh, don't tell people that that's untrue
  442. # [15:59] <Philip`> People's selfishness combined with their blind following of SEO 'experts' makes it a very effective way to encourage them to write valid pages
  443. # [16:01] <jgraham_> Apparently Google ranks your pages higher if you send me cake
  444. # [16:03] <Philip`> jgraham_: Nobody's going to believe you in IRC - you have to set up an SEO blog first, and then link to it from thousands of other SEO blogs' comment threads
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  446. # [16:04] <Dashiva> Philip`: Or you can RT it
  447. # [16:05] * Philip` is insufficiently down with the lingo
  448. # [16:05] <Philip`> Oh, do you mean retweet?
  449. # [16:06] <Dashiva> Yes
  450. # [16:06] <Philip`> That introduces the problem of bootstrapping yourself with followers, I assume
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  453. # [16:09] <Dashiva> I'm sure there's a group of SEO twits (tweeters? twitterers?) who dedicate themselves to being a complete graph
  454. # [16:10] <jgraham_> Philip`: Frankly you are the wrong sort of people to get cake from anyway. I only really care about people trying to SEO their luxury good sites so that I get decent cake
  455. # [16:11] <jgraham_> s/good/goods/
  456. # [16:12] <jgraham_> For example, my insider knowledge tells me that the search ranking of internationally famous London department stores is heavily contingent on a steady supply of cake
  457. # [16:13] * jgraham_ is now known as jgraham
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  461. # [16:18] <beowulf> finally, something i can do
  462. # [16:19] * beowulf loads a pallet of cake onto a boat for jgraham
  463. # [16:19] * beowulf awaits fame and fortune
  464. # [16:20] * Joins: annevk5 (n=opera@EM114-48-55-27.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  465. # [16:21] <jcranmer> I've seen SEO spam by companies who weren't in the top 10 results for "SEO" on Google
  466. # [16:21] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  467. # [16:21] <jcranmer> there are two explanations for this: 1. they're so bad, they need to spam for advertisement purposes, or 2. the spam is how they do SEO
  468. # [16:22] <Dashiva> Or 3. The 10 companies are their customers
  469. # [16:22] <Philip`> "We're Ranked No 1 For SEO" says the sponsored link at the top of Google's search results, linking to a site that is ranked No 11
  470. # [16:23] <Dashiva> E.g. http://xkcd.com/125/
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  500. # [17:52] <Almad> Hi, I'd like to ask about html5lib: Is there an easy way to have only a specific portion of html sanitized? For example, I have img src attribute and I'd like to use html5lib to return an escaped/sanitized/stripped string. Is there an API for that?
  501. # [17:54] <jgraham> Almad: I think the short anser is "no" and the longer anser is "what are you trying to achieve, exactly"?
  502. # [17:54] <Lachy> jgraham, I think I might have found a bug in html5lib. http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2Fhtml5%2Fhtml-author%2F&showsource=yes#l1033c16
  503. # [17:54] <Lachy> although, I will update to trunk first and see if it's been resolved
  504. # [17:55] <jgraham> Specifically what is the situation in which you can sanitize a single attribute and be reasonably sure you are doing the right thing?
  505. # [17:55] <Almad> jgraham: I'm having a wiki language and I have construct like "((picture http://picture))". I have it parsed and have "http://picture" string and I'd like to sanitize it using html5lib
  506. # [17:56] <jgraham> Lachy: Interesting
  507. # [17:58] * gsnedders agrees with that conclusion
  508. # [17:59] <Lachy> jgraham, from lookiing at my source document, the bug appears to occur with <section> <p>foo </section> <section><h1>...</h1></section>
  509. # [17:59] <Lachy> although, I haven't made a minimal TC to verify that
  510. # [17:59] <jgraham> Almad: You could do something like s = sanitizer.HTMLSanitizerMixin()
  511. # [18:00] <jgraham> s.sanitize_token({"type":"StartTag", "name":"a", "data":["href":href]}
  512. # [18:00] <jgraham> )
  513. # [18:00] <jgraham> hich would return a token with the href sanitized
  514. # [18:00] * gsnedders fails at tweeting
  515. # [18:01] <jgraham> but it's not like that isn't a hack
  516. # [18:01] <Almad> jgraham: thanks
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  518. # [18:01] <jgraham> Almad: All the other ways I can think of off the top of my head require you to sanitize the whole document
  519. # [18:02] <jgraham> Which seems safer, but slower
  520. # [18:02] <Almad> jgraham: well another solution in my mind is to expand to full <img src="unsanitized content"/>, then parse it, get proper node and return it
  521. # [18:02] <jgraham> We should really refactor the HTMLSanitizer to make this use case easier
  522. # [18:02] <Almad> hmm
  523. # [18:02] <Lachy> jgraham, the bug seems to be fixed in trunk, so nevermind
  524. # [18:03] <jgraham> Almad: Yes, you could of course do that
  525. # [18:03] <Almad> jgraham: ...but this still seems to be hacky for me ,)
  526. # [18:03] <jgraham> Almad: Indeed
  527. # [18:03] * jgraham wonders if rubys has an opinion
  528. # [18:04] * jgraham wonders if rubys read the logs
  529. # [18:04] <jgraham> s/d/ds/
  530. # [18:04] <Lachy> gsnedders, in anolis, what's the parameter to make it quote all attribute values in the output?
  531. # [18:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: Whatever html5lib's parse.py uses
  532. # [18:04] <Almad> I'm afraid about that expanding wighout sanitizing part, at least user will probably have some unexpected formatting output (at least)
  533. # [18:04] <Lachy> any idea what that is?
  534. # [18:05] <gsnedders> Lachy: no
  535. # [18:05] <jgraham> quote_attr_values
  536. # [18:05] <jgraham> I think
  537. # [18:05] <gsnedders> --quote-attr-values I guess through CLI?
  538. # [18:05] <Almad> jgraham: I'll probably use Your hack now and look at another solutions later, thanks for helping
  539. # [18:05] <jgraham> But I'm reading pms.net which is a bit buggy
  540. # [18:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yeah, probably
  541. # [18:06] <jgraham> Lachy: You are using the commandline?
  542. # [18:06] <Lachy> yes
  543. # [18:07] <Lachy> yay, that worked. Now when I open the generated file in my editor, it doesn't mess up the syntax highlighting.
  544. # [18:08] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  545. # [18:08] * jgraham should really stop calling it pms.net since that seems to be a domain squatting site that is looking for a pre-menstrual-syndrome related buyer
  546. # [18:09] <Philip`> jgraham: You should buy that domain
  547. # [18:10] <jgraham> Philip`: That involves spending money. I don't think PimpMySpec is important enough to warrant two domain
  548. # [18:10] * Joins: billmason (n=bmason@ip102.unival.com)
  549. # [18:10] <jgraham> s
  550. # [18:10] <Lachy> if that domain isn't taken, I'd be surprised
  551. # [18:11] <Lachy> it is taken
  552. # [18:11] <Lachy> someone took a domain I wanted too, recently
  553. # [18:11] <jgraham> Lachy: Like I said, it's being squatted on. The first link on the page says "The domain might be for sale"
  554. # [18:12] <Lachy> I got html5reference.org and html5reference.net. I couldn't get the .com
  555. # [18:12] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  556. # [18:12] <jgraham> s/The/This/
  557. # [18:14] <Philip`> http://dev.quickfire.org/perfect/?query=html
  558. # [18:14] <Philip`> Looks like the web isn't very perfect :-(
  559. # [18:15] <jgraham> Hmm mjs is arguing against standardising on a behaviour that webkit already has in ES3.1
  560. # [18:15] <jgraham> Or at least saying that it might be problematic...
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  569. # [18:53] * Philip` wonders if the comments on http://www.codinghorror.com/ are usually as voluminous and full of people entirely missing the point and repeating misinformation as they are on the post about HTML validation
  570. # [18:54] <sid0> yes
  571. # [18:56] <Philip`> I guess I've noticed similar things in comments on The Daily WTF
  572. # [18:56] <Philip`> Is there something about popular technical blogs that turns their comments sections into floods of hundreds of comments that provide no value whatsoever?
  573. # [18:57] <Philip`> Actually, I suppose it's just that I'm judging popularity based on number of comments
  574. # [18:58] <Philip`> and at a certain point there are so many comments that people post without reading all the previous ones, and then nobody will bother posting anything worthwhile because they know it's going to get lost in the flood and nobody will read it
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  584. # [19:25] <jcranmer> "This new approach to programming doesn't yet have a handy name like Ajax, though some refer to it as HTML 5."
  585. # [19:25] <jcranmer> uh... misinformation++
  586. # [19:26] <jcranmer> the author also seems to equate Ajax with dynamic web pages
  587. # [19:27] <jcranmer> "Ajax also allowed Web pages to be more dynamic in other ways, letting users, say, right-click and see a menu tailored to their needs."
  588. # [19:27] <jcranmer> that's plain old DOM manipulation
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  626. # [21:58] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  627. # [22:01] * svl frowns. I don't grok the two errors this gives me: http://validator.nu/?doc=http://have-skill.com/presentation/2009/mozcamp Could someone enlighten me (or have I stumbled upon a bug in the validator)?
  628. # [22:02] <gsnedders> svl: opening pre tag implies a closing p tag, so there is no open p element there
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  630. # [22:03] <svl> Ah, dagnabbit - I thought I'd checked that was 'inline'.
  631. # [22:04] <svl> So that leaves the datalist thing; which I copy/pasted from some Opera tutorial...
  632. # [22:05] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I think that's a validator bug
  633. # [22:05] <gsnedders> svl: ^^ also
  634. # [22:06] <svl> thanks. :)
  635. # [22:09] * svl also spots an Opera bug with the actual <input list> thing, in that it causes a weird reflow removing all the linebreaks from the pre after having been activated. Where's anne when you need him anyway?
  636. # [22:10] <gsnedders> On a plane, I think
  637. # [22:10] <Philip`> A basic multilingual plane?
  638. # [22:10] <gsnedders> No, an aeroplane.
  639. # [22:11] <Philip`> Oh, right
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  653. # [23:09] <Philip`> http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/3.1-problems.html
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  668. # Session Close: Sat Mar 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)