/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 07 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:06] <gsnedders> Wow. Markup by me with closing tags.
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  32. # [01:44] <gsnedders> Lachy: Happy b'day!
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  41. # [02:18] <wahnfrieden> hi
  42. # [02:18] <wahnfrieden> is there any demo site to see how html5lib sanitizes HTML?
  43. # [02:21] <karlcow> wahnfrieden: As far as I know last time I looked at html5lib, there were doing parsing only and not serialization/sanitization
  44. # [02:29] <wahnfrieden> they are doing a whitelist sanitization tokenizer
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  54. # [03:25] <Hixie> dimich: in theory the spec already says what encoding to use for the query part
  55. # [03:25] <Hixie> dimich: see the url part of html5 (somewhere in section 2 iirc)
  56. # [03:26] * dimich looking...
  57. # [03:28] <dimich> so it says the encoding should match the encoding of the document or script (in case of the Worker)
  58. # [03:29] * Hixie looks
  59. # [03:29] <dimich> If I read it correctly :-) 2.5.1 and further
  60. # [03:30] <Hixie> it says to use the "script's character encoding"
  61. # [03:30] <Hixie> which is set by the "Create a script" algorithm
  62. # [03:30] <Hixie> which in the case of a worker is invoked in step 3 of section 2.5's algorithm
  63. # [03:30] <Hixie> and is always set to utf-8
  64. # [03:31] <Hixie> so in the worker case i guess the answer is always utf-8
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  67. # [03:35] <dimich> Hixie: sorry, I'm not sure I follow. Lets say we load a Worker and it has a http header that sets charset.
  68. # [03:35] <dimich> So we decode the script using that encoding. Doesn't it become a "script'
  69. # [03:35] <dimich> s encoding"?
  70. # [03:36] <dimich> so when this script tries to open XHR (for example) shouldn't we encode that url with that encoding?
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  72. # [03:37] <dimich> I guess I'm looking for "create a script" algorithm...
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  74. # [03:37] <dimich> ah, ok, I see it now.
  75. # [03:38] <dimich> in a worker spec, "Set the script's character encoding to UTF-8. (This is just used for encoding non-ASCII characters in the query component of URLs.)"
  76. # [03:38] <dimich> So basically all URLs inside scripts should be encoded UTF8
  77. # [03:38] <dimich> Thanks!
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  91. # [04:52] <olliej> Hixie: ping?
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  101. # [05:20] <Hixie> olliej: here vaguely
  102. # [05:20] <Hixie> hm, dimich left while i was at dinner, d'oh
  103. # [05:23] <olliej> Hixie: sorry, back
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  105. # [05:24] <olliej> Hixie: looking at importScripts ( http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#importing-scripts-and-libraries )
  106. # [05:25] <olliej> Hixie: it implies that importScripts(sources) does for (source in sources) { script = loadSource(source); if (network error) throw; execute(script) }
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  108. # [05:26] <Hixie> olliej: right
  109. # [05:26] <olliej> Hixie: but the behaviour exhibited by firefox is for (source in sources) { scripts.append(loadSource(source)); if (network error) throw; } for (script in scripts) execute(script)
  110. # [05:26] <olliej> Hixie: so if any script fails to load, none are run
  111. # [05:26] <Hixie> olliej: file a bug
  112. # [05:26] <Hixie> either on them or on me :-)
  113. # [05:26] <olliej> Hixie: on moz or the spec
  114. # [05:26] <olliej> hehe
  115. # [05:26] <Hixie> i don't really care either way
  116. # [05:26] <olliej> which mailing list are workers discussed on?
  117. # [05:26] <Hixie> whatwg or public-webapps
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  120. # [05:43] <olliej> Hixie: emailed
  121. # [05:43] <olliej> Hixie: honestly not sure what the best approach is, so i've just asked for other people to comment
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  125. # [05:54] <Hixie> k
  126. # [05:55] <wahnfrieden> html5 will never happen.
  127. # [05:55] <wahnfrieden> IE6 will always be the lowest common denominator
  128. # [05:56] <olliej> wahnfrieden: i saw one stat that said firefox has more marketshare than ie6 now
  129. # [05:56] <olliej> wahnfrieden: and ie is the only browser with shrinking marketshare
  130. # [05:57] <Hixie> html4 will never happen either
  131. # [05:57] <Hixie> IE2 will always be the lowest common denominator
  132. # [05:58] <Hixie> (also, lots of part of html5 can have shims written for them that work around their limitations in ie6)
  133. # [05:58] <Hixie> (that was part of the plan from the very start)
  134. # [05:59] <wahnfrieden> heh
  135. # [05:59] <wahnfrieden> i like operating only in a scholars world
  136. # [05:59] <wahnfrieden> i can utterly ignore IE
  137. # [06:00] <olliej> i also ignore ie entirely
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  142. # [06:46] <Hixie> dimich: i should probably make it clearer that "the script's encoding" doesn't necessarily mean the encoding of the actual script file
  143. # [06:46] <Hixie> dimich: i'll file a bug
  144. # [06:47] <dimich> Hixie: Yeah, that could be a good idea. I was thinking all along that the encoding used to decode the actual script is the same one but apparently not.
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  147. # [07:26] <Lachy> I revised the description of the DOCTYPE http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#doctype-declaration
  148. # [07:27] <Lachy> I've attempted to use a new interactive technique to illustrate the case insensitivity
  149. # [07:27] <Lachy> if you hover over the highlighted parts of the doctype where it discusses case sensitivity, it shows the alternative cases
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  156. # [08:27] <olliej> yo dbaron
  157. # [08:27] <dbaron> hi
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  277. # [19:08] <karlcow> https://www.ohloh.net/p/html5lib
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  279. # [19:09] <karlcow> $ 605,355
  280. # [19:09] <sayrer> hmm
  281. # [19:09] <sayrer> http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978
  282. # [19:11] <Philip`> "reducing its complexity" - that sounds incompatible with the idea of "don't break the web", because people rely on all the complexity
  283. # [19:12] <annevk> tags "javascript"
  284. # [19:12] <sayrer> I think it is difficult to dismiss it out of hand without seeing a proposal
  285. # [19:12] <annevk> I think that's exactly why it's easy to dismiss it out of hand
  286. # [19:13] <Philip`> It's easy to dismiss it until such a time as a more concrete proposal exists, and then it would be bad to dismiss it out of hand
  287. # [19:13] <sayrer> should be interesting
  288. # [19:13] <annevk> he has done a proposal before actually
  289. # [19:13] <Philip`> Based on the lack of any other information, I'd assume it's based on the ideas in http://www.crockford.com/html/
  290. # [19:14] * Joins: pauld_ (n=pauld@92.40.245.40.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  291. # [19:14] <annevk> that's the one
  292. # [19:14] <sayrer> he was comparing it to ES3.1
  293. # [19:14] <sayrer> which is mostly compatible
  294. # [19:14] <sayrer> unlike that html proposal of his
  295. # [19:15] <sayrer> although some have called ES3.1 a "nothing burger"
  296. # [19:15] <sayrer> :)
  297. # [19:15] <gsnedders> Compatibility? Peh! We should just use an XML parser for text/html!
  298. # [19:15] <Philip`> Does ES3.1 attempt "to simplify, streamline, and generalize, increasing the system's expressive power while reducing its complexity"?
  299. # [19:15] <Philip`> (I have no idea what ES3.1 does, so it's not a rhetorical question :-) )
  300. # [19:17] <Philip`> I'd assume a nothing burger is a bun, and buns are often nice by themselves
  301. # [19:17] <sayrer> I don't think it reduced complexity much
  302. # [19:17] <Dashiva> I haven't been following the list lately, but last I can recall es3.1 was "the parts of es4 that we like"
  303. # [19:17] <sayrer> but it did add some good features
  304. # [19:18] <Philip`> Dashiva: Is that a different "we" to the people who presumably liked things enough to put them in ES4?
  305. # [19:18] <sayrer> the ideas were basically the same
  306. # [19:18] <Dashiva> Yeah. The main point was supposed to be that it both adds and changes, it's not a strict fix-only rev.
  307. # [19:18] <sayrer> yeah
  308. # [19:18] <sayrer> also it breaks
  309. # [19:19] <sayrer> for instance it adds window.JSON
  310. # [19:19] <annevk> and still doesn't define e.g. Date parsing :/
  311. # [19:19] <gsnedders> Peh! Why do you want to parse dates?
  312. # [19:19] <sayrer> it added ISO8061 style dates
  313. # [19:19] <Dashiva> It's also a bit hard to apply es semantics to html development. In the es case, they rely on e.g. computer science research on static analysis of certain structures
  314. # [19:20] <sayrer> not really
  315. # [19:20] <Dashiva> In HTML, research usually means going it alone
  316. # [19:20] <Dashiva> And isn't that what we want to avoid in the first place?
  317. # [19:21] <annevk> anyway, i don't really follow his analogy
  318. # [19:21] <annevk> compared to es4 HTML5 is actually being implemented and parts that aren't will be removed
  319. # [19:23] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@77.91.248.124) (Connection timed out)
  320. # [19:24] <sayrer> well, if Microsoft shows up next to him, things get interesting
  321. # [19:24] <Philip`> Maybe part of the difference is that JS already lets you write programs that do anything you want, so new versions can just slowly make it nicer to do certain things, whereas HTML is fundamentally incapable of almost everything and so the most useful thing you can do is add features, and if you don't add features then people won't be happy
  322. # [19:25] <sayrer> that's not a very good description of ES3.1, actually
  323. # [19:25] <sayrer> it adds a bunch of introspection capabilities that were previously only available to the VMs themselves
  324. # [19:27] <annevk> it'll only ever get interesting if it gets further than rethoric
  325. # [19:29] <Dashiva> I wonder how close his 4.2 vision is to sayrer's thing. What's it called again?
  326. # [19:29] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware (which isn't far) you could still kind of hack things together using explicit functions to make scripts with similar functionality in pre-ES3.1 - it's different to e.g. <canvas> or offline web applications which let you do things that are fundamentally impossible with HTML4
  327. # [19:29] <sayrer> Philip`, one example would be that you define properties on Objects that don't appear in for...in loops
  328. # [19:30] <sayrer> you can define
  329. # [19:30] <Philip`> You can hack things together with hasOwnProperty to make scripts that work like that
  330. # [19:30] <Philip`> It's not very elegant but people seem to put up with it
  331. # [19:31] <sayrer> I don't think you can emulate that
  332. # [19:31] <Dashiva> And you could do canvas with positioned divs, one per pixel...
  333. # [19:31] <sayrer> especially if you want to write library code, e.g. adding stuff to an array
  334. # [19:31] <sayrer> and not break your users' for...in loops
  335. # [19:33] <Philip`> Dashiva: Well, you could if you're writing a 16x16 version of Wolfenstein 3D, but anything more practical is impossible
  336. # [19:33] <Philip`> so there's some implicit requirement on practicality in my use of "fundamentally impossible"
  337. # [19:33] <Philip`> which probably invalidates my argument, but oh well
  338. # [19:34] <Dashiva> Part of it. Some of the new stuff is 100% sugar, of course.
  339. # [19:35] <Philip`> sayrer: Hmm, the libraries could just provide standalone functions instead of trying to add themselves to Object and then I guess it'd be emulating the functionality (though not the syntax)
  340. # [19:37] <sayrer> it's interesting to me that lots of people say HTML5 should be smaller, but then go into toxic shock when someone proposing making something smaller
  341. # [19:38] <sayrer> I wonder if crockford's proposal will be smaller than mine
  342. # [19:38] * Philip` doesn't care how big HTML5 is since he is happy to just ignore most of it
  343. # [19:39] <sayrer> I got to the same place, actually :)
  344. # [19:40] <Philip`> I suppose I'm indirectly affected by it spreading the resources of browser developers more widely, but that's a long-term issue and I don't care about the long-term because it's less fun than looking at what works today
  345. # [19:41] <Dashiva> <sayrer> it's interesting to me that lots of people say HTML5 should be smaller, but then go into toxic shock when someone proposing making something smaller
  346. # [19:41] <Dashiva> I don't understand the last part
  347. # [19:41] * gsnedders passes Dashiva a copy of English5
  348. # [19:41] <Philip`> s/proposing/proposes/ ?
  349. # [19:41] <sayrer> yeah, bit of a typo there, sorry
  350. # [19:42] <Dashiva> Aha. I was wondering if the last part of the sentence was missing.
  351. # [19:42] <sayrer> implementation defined
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  362. # [20:19] <ehird> http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978 <— *yawn*
  363. # [20:19] <jcranmer> ehird: you mean
  364. # [20:19] <jcranmer> 13:06 < sayrer> http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-TBPekxc1dLNy5DOloPfzVvFIVOWMB0li?p=978
  365. # [20:19] <ehird> i am not yet telepathic into the past :-)
  366. # [20:23] <Philip`> ehird: I find http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/ less stressful than telepathy
  367. # [20:24] <ehird> Philip`: i can never load logs from there, I keep getting 499 telepathy not possible :(
  368. # [20:24] <Philip`> Then again, trying to read all the IRC logs for this channel is quite likely to drive you crazy
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  386. # [22:03] <gsnedders> This whole writing a CV thing sucks.
  387. # [22:03] <eighty4> :)
  388. # [22:03] <eighty4> I know how it feels
  389. # [22:15] <gsnedders> Hmmm…
  390. # [22:16] <gsnedders> What can I say about participation in WHATWG?
  391. # [22:16] <eighty4> that you do?
  392. # [22:16] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  393. # [22:16] * gsnedders slaps eighty4 around a lill'
  394. # [22:17] <eighty4> I'm still not sure what whatwg is
  395. # [22:17] * gsnedders points at the topic
  396. # [22:17] * gsnedders points at the FAQ
  397. # [22:17] * gsnedders still wants to rename that section to "What's WHAT?"
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  399. # [22:19] <eighty4> oh. That would involve reading
  400. # [22:19] <eighty4> I'll do it when I need to know what whatwg is :)
  401. # [22:26] * gsnedders pokes Philip`
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  403. # [22:27] <Philip`> Ouch
  404. # [22:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: Is "automatable" in the OED?
  405. # [22:28] <gsnedders> Sorry, you're the first person I can think of with access to it :P
  406. # [22:31] <Philip`> It's not explicitly listed as far as I can see, but I didn't think the OED ever listed that kind of word form
  407. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: How about automate?
  408. # [22:33] <Philip`> Automate is in there
  409. # [22:33] <Philip`> (twice)
  410. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Philip`: Of what etymology? Latin?
  411. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Actually, French I'll guess?
  412. # [22:34] * gsnedders stops questioning Philip`
  413. # [22:36] <Philip`> [Back-formation f. next or f. AUTOMATION; cf. AUTOMATE n. and a.]
  414. # [22:36] <gsnedders> k, thx
  415. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Thus it should be fine to use -able
  416. # [22:38] <Philip`> It'd be fine to use it in any case - the language police aren't going to arrest you for making up a new word
  417. # [22:38] * gsnedders is listening to And The Mouse Police Never Sleeps by Jethro Tull from Heavy Horses
  418. # [22:39] <olliej> sicking: ping?
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  420. # [22:40] * olliej wishes he knew what importScripts is meant to be doing
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  422. # [22:41] <olliej> yo sayrer
  423. # [22:41] <sayrer> olliej yo
  424. # [22:41] <olliej> sayrer: i'm beginning to hate importScripts
  425. # [22:42] <sayrer> what has it done?
  426. # [22:42] <olliej> sayrer: do you follow the whatwg mailing list?
  427. # [22:42] <sayrer> nope
  428. # [22:43] <sayrer> but I'll look at the importScripts traffic
  429. # [22:43] <olliej> sayrer: basically the spec says importScripts does one thing, mozilla does another
  430. # [22:43] <sayrer> we have some time to fix it. did we do it on purpose?
  431. # [22:43] <olliej> sayrer: and both models make sense from certain points of view
  432. # [22:43] <olliej> sayrer: sicking filed a bug
  433. # [22:43] <olliej> and ben turner said it was deliberate
  434. # [22:44] <olliej> sayrer: so i have no idea wth i should be doing in webkit :D
  435. # [22:44] <sayrer> hmm, puzzling
  436. # [22:44] <olliej> sayrer: makes writing the test case even more fun
  437. # [22:45] <sayrer> could you use ours?
  438. # [22:45] <olliej> i'm 90% i can match your model exactly
  439. # [22:45] <sayrer> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/search?string=importScripts
  440. # [22:45] <olliej> sayrer: oh
  441. # [22:45] <olliej> your test cases?
  442. # [22:45] <sayrer> yeah, I thought that's what you meant
  443. # [22:46] <sayrer> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/src/threads/test/Makefile.in#50
  444. # [22:47] <sayrer> did you see that browsertests.org page?
  445. # [22:47] <sayrer> we fail each other's tests, pretty much
  446. # [22:47] <sayrer> depressing!
  447. # [22:47] <olliej> sayrer: sadness
  448. # [22:48] <sayrer> though maybe a lot of them are superficial bugs
  449. # [22:48] <sayrer> like we had some failing because our emulation of your harness was printing differently
  450. # [22:48] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.79.167)
  451. # [22:48] <olliej> sayrer: i would hope so, but there are icky things in drt
  452. # [22:49] <olliej> (for most of the pure layout tests anyway)
  453. # [22:49] <olliej> sayrer: what's worrying is that there appear to be some tests that everyone fails O_o
  454. # [22:50] <sayrer> that made me laugh some
  455. # [22:50] <sayrer> we have some tests we only pass on mac, though
  456. # [22:51] <olliej> ditto
  457. # [22:52] <sayrer> bz's post reminded me we should stop trying so hard on function definitions at parse time
  458. # [22:52] <sayrer> hrmph
  459. # [22:52] <sayrer> so much to do
  460. # [22:53] <sayrer> can't say I have an opinion on this importScripts thing
  461. # [22:53] <olliej> :-/
  462. # [22:53] <olliej> oh well
  463. # [22:53] <olliej> i'm just implementing the current moz model
  464. # [22:53] <sayrer> would be interested to hear what the chrome guys want
  465. # [22:53] <olliej> i currently have #if 1 ... #else ... #endif
  466. # [22:53] <olliej> sayrer: why?
  467. # [22:53] <sayrer> just more opinions
  468. # [22:53] <olliej> sayrer: they will just get what i implement
  469. # [22:53] <olliej> ehhehe
  470. # [22:54] <sayrer> haha
  471. # [22:54] <olliej> v8 cannot run more than once per process -- they actually have to run workers in separate processes
  472. # [22:54] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@c-68-49-245-59.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  473. # [22:54] <olliej> which seems excessively heavy weight, but there you go
  474. # [22:55] <olliej> mean while jsc has to continue to support some of the most horrific threading semantics i have ever encountered
  475. # [22:55] * olliej beats head on desk
  476. # [22:55] <sayrer> we've managed to get the worst of both worlds
  477. # [22:55] <sayrer> join the club
  478. # [22:56] <olliej> A single JSC context is not thread safe -- eg. you can't have too threads using the same js context concurrently
  479. # [22:56] <olliej> but you can have JS execution on a single context switch from thread to thread
  480. # [22:57] <gsnedders> olliej: So you basically have a lock on execution?
  481. # [22:57] <olliej> or thread A can execute js which can call a native function which then calls back into JS again
  482. # [22:57] <olliej> but calls back into JS on a different thread
  483. # [22:57] <olliej> gsnedders: that would be nice, but the above semantic results in that being pain
  484. # [22:59] <olliej> so much pain
  485. # [22:59] * Philip` has a multithreaded application that embeds SpiderMonkey, and deals with threading issues mostly by sticking his head in the sand and hoping it's not going to break, which seems to be a fine strategy so far
  486. # [22:59] <olliej> in the pre-workers world i believe we did just do a global lock on entry to jsc
  487. # [22:59] <gsnedders> "You should worry 'bout the day/That the pain it goes away"
  488. # [22:59] <sayrer> spidermonkey is usually decent by the release
  489. # [22:59] <olliej> Philip`: mostly that works for jsc as well, it's just when people do insane things
  490. # [23:00] <sayrer> there are server embedders that stress it pretty hard
  491. # [23:00] <sayrer> Firefox doesn't really
  492. # [23:00] <gsnedders> olliej: But where's the fun in life without doing insane things? :D
  493. # [23:00] <olliej> sayrer: people keep telling me the TM has stability issues, but i really haven't seen any problems with it -- is it a platform specific issues or something?
  494. # [23:00] <olliej> gsnedders: oh we have plenty of insane clients
  495. # [23:00] <sayrer> we have more blockers than I would like
  496. # [23:01] <Philip`> I think I currently have two totally separate JSRuntimes that each run in separate threads and never communicate, so presumably it's avoiding pretty much all of the complicated synchronisation issues
  497. # [23:01] <olliej> sayrer: ick
  498. # [23:01] <sayrer> I never hit them in my daily browsing, though
  499. # [23:01] <olliej> sayrer: ah right
  500. # [23:01] <sayrer> we had quite a subtle, awful bug fixed two weeks ago
  501. # [23:01] <olliej> sayrer: so it's icky edge cases basically?
  502. # [23:01] <sayrer> yeah
  503. # [23:02] <sayrer> the tracing approach is somewhat prone to that, since it violates DRY to an extent
  504. # [23:02] <olliej> DRY?
  505. # [23:03] <sayrer> Don't Repeat Yourself
  506. # [23:03] <olliej> ah
  507. # [23:03] <olliej> :D
  508. # [23:03] <olliej> sayrer: but i bet you don't have some of the bugs we get -- we had one client that used a cache of common native object wrappers
  509. # [23:04] <sayrer> we have all sorts of insane stuff like that. in the browser, because we let extension use the JSAPI
  510. # [23:04] <olliej> sayrer: and it would lazily create these wrapper with logic that basically did: ctx=createContext(); object=createObject(ctx); deleteContext(ctx); store(object)
  511. # [23:04] <olliej> sayrer: ah ha
  512. # [23:05] <olliej> sayrer: i was not aware you directly exposed api like that
  513. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Peh! Who needs context!?
  514. # [23:05] * gsnedders is useless
  515. # [23:41] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-66-89.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
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  517. # [23:45] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-161-226.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  520. # Session Close: Sun Mar 08 00:00:00 2009

The end :)