/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 11 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] <Lachy> Hixie, so are you just going through the whole specification and adding class=impl to all the implementation requiremetns?
  4. # [00:06] <Lachy> *requirements
  5. # [00:08] <Lachy> Hixie, if you're not checking it in, how are we able see the changes in the spec that we're seeing?
  6. # [00:08] <Lachy> without looking at the /working-copy
  7. # [00:09] <Hixie> i keep regenning the spec
  8. # [00:10] <Hixie> everything above the huge yellow-black dotted line is done
  9. # [00:10] * annevk finds http://technews.am/conversations/ajaxian/de_crocking_html5
  10. # [00:10] <Hixie> everything below it is not
  11. # [00:10] <Lachy> ok, so is it only the whatwg copy that's being updated, not the W3C copy?
  12. # [00:10] <fakeolliej> annevk: is your presentation going to be anywhere online?
  13. # [00:11] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  14. # [00:11] * Lachy finds the big yellow line just above "4.10.4 The input element"
  15. # [00:11] <Hixie> annevk: seems to be about http://stephencelis.com/2009/03/09/yahoo-for-the-future.html
  16. # [00:11] <annevk> olliej, yeah, likely, not too much new things though
  17. # [00:13] <Lachy> Hixie, those class="domintro" sections look useful. I'm going to steal those for the HTML5 Reference
  18. # [00:14] <annevk> thanks Hixie
  19. # [00:14] <Lachy> but it's going to be hard to get a script to extract them and work out which section they need to be inserted in the reference
  20. # [00:15] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@115.129.11.133)
  21. # [00:15] <annevk> http://cwilso.com/2009/03/10/sam-ruby/ fwiw (no real news)
  22. # [00:15] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@115.129.11.133) (Remote closed the connection)
  23. # [00:16] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah
  24. # [00:16] <Hixie> Lachy: my biggest problem is going to be trying to work out how to do link fixup when the impl bits are hidden
  25. # [00:17] <Lachy> http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/10/1942232&from=rss
  26. # [00:17] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@65.210.82.235)
  27. # [00:17] <Lachy> That's going to suck if there's any truth to that rumour
  28. # [00:19] <roc> suck? why?
  29. # [00:20] <Lachy> well, actually, reading the article instead of just the slashdot summary, it may not suck so much. But if they adopt webkit, then that will reduce the competition in the market
  30. # [00:20] <roc> having both HTML WG co-chairs work for Microsoft, who have shown no interest in most of HTML5, just seems bizarre
  31. # [00:20] <Philip`> The comment there about Gazelle seems to be based on completely failing to understand what Gazelle is
  32. # [00:21] <Lachy> but if they adopt the new Gazelle rendering engine that the article talks about, then it keeps the competition, but it gives web developers a whole new browser engine and set of bugs to contend with
  33. # [00:21] <Philip`> There isn't a new Gazelle rendering engine
  34. # [00:21] <roc> Gazelle doesn't have a new rendering engine
  35. # [00:21] <olliej> Lachy: i doubt they'd adopt webkit, we actually like standards
  36. # [00:21] <roc> Gazelle uses Trident
  37. # [00:21] * olliej hides from any ms folk around
  38. # [00:22] <Philip`> It claims to use IE7 in particular
  39. # [00:22] <roc> it's possible they could write a new rendering engine in C# or something and use it in Gazelle
  40. # [00:22] <Philip`> (presumably modified a bit)
  41. # [00:22] <Lachy> roc, the article seems to indicate that Gazelle is a new engine. Not just a new browser that uses trident
  42. # [00:23] <roc> it's wrong
  43. # [00:23] <Lachy> but I don't know anything about it. I haven't heard of it before.
  44. # [00:23] <Philip`> Lachy: That's because the person who wrote the article doesn't know what they're talking about :-)
  45. # [00:23] <Lachy> Philip`, that's likely :-)
  46. # [00:23] <Hixie> the odds of microsoft dropping trident after spending all the effort on IE8 seem remote to me
  47. # [00:23] <Philip`> Lachy: http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79655
  48. # [00:23] <Philip`> Lachy: though the abstract seems pretty rubbish because I didn't understand it at all when I read it
  49. # [00:24] <Philip`> Lachy: but the actual content makes more sense
  50. # [00:25] <roc> Microsoft dropping Trident for Gecko or Webkit would make a lot of sense, but it's very hard to imagine
  51. # [00:25] <Philip`> "Instead of undertaking a significant effort of writing our own HTML parser, renderer, and JavaScript engine, we borrow these components from Internet Explorer 7 in a way that does not compromise security. Relying on IE’s Trident renderer has a big benefit of inheriting IE’s page rendering compatibility and performance."
  52. # [00:26] <roc> except they go on to trash compatibility and performance
  53. # [00:26] <Philip`> Well, sure, but that's better than not even starting with compatibility and performance :-)
  54. # [00:27] <Philip`> and it only takes an extra 15MB of memory and 0.5 seconds to load the Google front page
  55. # [00:27] <Philip`> and computers are getting faster every day!
  56. # [00:30] <Philip`> Hmm, they make it sound like most of that performance loss is just due to an inefficient prototype implementation
  57. # [00:30] <Philip`> so it wouldn't be so much of a problem in a real implementation
  58. # [00:31] <Lachy> If Microsoft do anything with the architecture of IE, even if they hypothetically did replace the rendering engine, then I really doubt they would drop the Internet Explorer brand. So I think that slashdot summary is completly wrong in every way
  59. # [00:32] * Philip` is shocked
  60. # [00:33] <Lachy> indeed. I'm sure this is the first time in history that a slashdot summary has ever been wrong.
  61. # [00:33] <annevk> heycam, note that if <script> does CDATA parsing CDATA sections will no longer be recognized
  62. # [00:33] <annevk> heycam, unless you create something weird such as CDATAorCDATASection parsing
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  64. # [00:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: You got anything against me using a WHATWG wiki page for Anolis biblio?
  65. # [00:35] <Hixie> no go ahead
  66. # [00:36] <Lachy> annevk, if we did, authors would just need to use the same technique they do to make <script> compatible with both HTML and XHTML by using commented CDATA sections. <script>//<![CDATA[ ... //]]></script>
  67. # [00:37] <Lachy> but then that prevents simply copying and pasting exsisting SVG images without modification into HTML
  68. # [00:37] <Lachy> if they contain scripts with cdata sections
  69. # [00:38] <heycam> annevk, right, i don't think making <svg:script> do CDATA parsing is the right solution
  70. # [00:38] <Lachy> I would prefer it if we did it so that they had consistent parsing
  71. # [00:39] <Lachy> I'm not a big fan of introducing such XML-like parsing rules into HTML
  72. # [00:39] <Lachy> and so they had consistent rules for authors
  73. # [00:39] <heycam> i kinda of like having CDATA parsing being made explicit
  74. # [00:40] <heycam> means i don't have to remember which elements have CDATA content models and which don't
  75. # [00:40] <Lachy> sure, but now you have to remember that <script> has CDATA parsing when in HTML, but not when it's in an SVG fragment. I think that is harder than just remembering that <script> is always CDATA
  76. # [00:41] <heycam> perhaps :)
  77. # [00:42] <heycam> most SVG content uses "<![CDATA[" without it being prefixed with "//"
  78. # [00:43] <Lachy> heycam, I know. that's why I said it would prevent copying and pasting SVG from existing tools without modification
  79. # [00:43] <heycam> unless we special case <![CDATA[ within an element defined to be CDATA
  80. # [00:44] <heycam> which is what sicking was suggesting, i think
  81. # [00:44] <Lachy> that might work
  82. # [00:44] <Lachy> much like <!-- is
  83. # [00:44] * heycam wonders out loud whether there is much content that uses CDATA sections in other elements (<style>, <text>, ...)
  84. # [00:44] <Lachy> I doubt it
  85. # [00:44] <heycam> i don't think we can make <svg:script> in SVG/XML be CDATA
  86. # [00:45] <heycam> without a DTD
  87. # [00:45] <Lachy> heycam, no, it has to be #PCDATA
  88. # [00:45] <Lachy> in XML
  89. # [00:45] <Lachy> using a DTD is not an option
  90. # [00:45] <heycam> right, i wouldn't want to reintroduce a DTD
  91. # [00:45] <heycam> (or require it to be specified for things to work properly)
  92. # [00:46] <heycam> but having <svg:script> parse differently in XML and HTML isn't ideal
  93. # [00:46] <Lachy> if we do make <script> CDATA, then there would be issues with any scripts that use character references instead of a CDATA section
  94. # [00:46] <heycam> yep
  95. # [00:47] <Lachy> but I'm not sure how many scripts do that. I suspect most would use CDATA cause it's easier
  96. # [00:47] <heycam> i contend that there aren't many of those
  97. # [00:47] <heycam> with no proof
  98. # [00:47] <Lachy> yep
  99. # [00:47] <Lachy> I mean, most would use <![CDATA[ sections
  100. # [00:47] <heycam> yeah
  101. # [00:48] <heycam> or at least would leave it out if the authors knows it's not using any characters that need escaping
  102. # [00:48] <Lachy> sure
  103. # [00:48] <heycam> i have actually written some content like <script>for (i = 0; i &lt; 10; ...</script>
  104. # [00:48] <heycam> just because i knew the script was short, and it was quicker to type the &lt; than to go back and insert the CDATA section markers
  105. # [00:49] <Lachy> I don't think it would be a problem to ignore compatibility with those, since there's an easy fix for authors
  106. # [00:49] <Lachy> and it's presumably a rarity anyway. Though, it would be nice to have evidence on that
  107. # [00:49] <heycam> yeah. i'm on the fence about how much compatibility is needed with existing scripts, since they'll likely need to change in some way anyway, given that the SVG fragment is now in the middle of an HTML document.
  108. # [00:50] <heycam> so why not just have them change those other syntactic differences at the same time
  109. # [00:51] <Lachy> it depends what the scripts are used for, and whether it matters for most scripts if <svg> is the root or not
  110. # [00:52] <Lachy> it might affect scripts that do document.getElemetnsByTagName("..."); and they get all the elements from multiple SVG images within the document, instead of just the one image
  111. # [00:52] <heycam> sure. some scripts can be "position independent".
  112. # [00:53] <Hixie> you can animate the script src? really?
  113. # [00:53] <Hixie> wow
  114. # [00:53] <Hixie> how does that even work
  115. # [00:53] <heycam> that you can is an oversight
  116. # [00:53] <heycam> because the xlink:href attribute is defined in a single place, and defined to be animatable
  117. # [00:53] <heycam> (in SVG 1.1)
  118. # [00:53] <Lachy> and if you're including multiple SVG images, you need to deal with issues like clashing id attributes
  119. # [00:53] <heycam> iirc in 1.2T it's explicitly non-animatable
  120. # [00:53] <heycam> (but 1.2T doesn't include those parts of the SVG DOM, the SVGAnimatedBlah interfaces)
  121. # [00:54] <Lachy> actually, clashing IDs can occur any time you embed documents within another
  122. # [00:55] <Philip`> Can I smoothly interpolate the script src from /scripts/001.js to /scripts/099.js ?
  123. # [00:55] <heycam> :)
  124. # [00:55] <heycam> (but no, string-typed attributes in SVG don't interpolate)
  125. # [00:56] <Philip`> (Oh, that's no fun)
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  132. # [01:04] <Lachy> "* The SVG WG is of the opinion that the contents of the SVG 'title' element should be RCDATA, and therefore would prefer that the HTML5 parsing algorithm not require conforming parsers to break out of foreign content mode and parse the element's content as HTML."
  133. # [01:05] <Lachy> I'm a little confused by that because the HTML <title> element is RCDATA, whereas the <title> in SVG as XML would be PCDATA
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  136. # [01:05] <Lachy> so isn't that what we get by parsing it according to the HTML rules anyway?
  137. # [01:07] <heycam> i think the reasoning behind the comment was that we don't need HTML elements inside <title>
  138. # [01:07] * heycam imagines <svg><title><p>blah blah</p><svg>...</svg></title></svg>
  139. # [01:08] <heycam> for <desc> i think it's fine, since that's meant to be like a long description of the content, so including HTML in there would be handy
  140. # [01:08] <heycam> even if it doesn't actually render or do anything
  141. # [01:08] * Hixie never understood what <desc> and <title> were really for
  142. # [01:08] * Hixie has a sneaking suspicion they're a (successful) way to shut accessibility people up
  143. # [01:09] <heycam> i don't think that's the intention of them, though i wasn't there at the start of course
  144. # [01:09] <heycam> i mean, i think having <title> (or <desc>) annotated elements could help with ATs navigating around a diagram
  145. # [01:10] <heycam> Hixie, i see your point around <title> being an element sort of implying that the intention is to allow <bdo> or other i18n things that you can't get in attributes
  146. # [01:11] <heycam> maybe <title> could allow HTML but have conformance requirements so that it doesn't include crazy stuff like the above /me'd example
  147. # [01:11] <Hixie> i would be really impressed if i ever saw a blind or text mode user actually successfully navigating an svg file using <title> or <desc>
  148. # [01:11] <heycam> in fact i don't know if any ATs actually support SVG at all, i'd be interested to know
  149. # [01:12] * heycam wonders why AT vendors don't participate in HTML and SVG WGs
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  151. # [01:13] <Hixie> i've approached several of them trying to get them involved in html5
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  153. # [01:13] <Hixie> unsuccessfully
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  155. # [01:14] <heycam> i wonder if there is some level of self-interest in not getting better? if all of the ATs are mediocre (which is my impression; correct me if i'm wrong) then maybe they are happy staying at that level.
  156. # [01:14] <Hixie> it is sad that in their absence their position is instead argued for them by... other people
  157. # [01:15] <heycam> it'd be great if a major org (like google) could put resources into one of the open source ones
  158. # [01:15] <heycam> (orca, is it?)
  159. # [01:15] <Hixie> the firevox guy works for google
  160. # [01:15] <Philip`> Might it be more an issue of limited resources (due to limited market)?
  161. # [01:15] <heycam> Philip`, could be. AT software is expensive though.
  162. # [01:16] <Hixie> i don't understand why AT software hasn't improved much over the years
  163. # [01:16] <Hixie> i'm also confused as to why most accessibility advocates seem to defend accessibility software
  164. # [01:16] <heycam> it seems unfortunate to be speccing various accessibility related stuff that may not get implemented for many years in ATs (or at all)
  165. # [01:17] <Hixie> yeah, well, that's one reason i want to drop the more useless stuff, so that AT vendors don't waste their time on that and instead focus on the big bang for the buck features
  166. # [01:17] <heycam> do the AT vendors participate in the WAI groups?
  167. # [01:18] <tantek> Hixie, the defending may be coming from thinking something is better than nothing.
  168. # [01:19] <Hixie> you'd think they'd be campaigning for quality
  169. # [01:19] <Hixie> rather than being thankful for dirt
  170. # [01:19] <Hixie> as it were
  171. # [01:19] <Hixie> but maybe you're right
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  177. # [01:55] <Hixie> 52%
  178. # [01:55] <Hixie> just did <input>
  179. # [01:56] <Hixie> i wonder how many dangling links are going to be left in the author version
  180. # [01:56] <Hixie> i bet i've used terms in the author prose whose definitions i've hidden
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  183. # [01:58] <Hixie> i wish people wouldn't cross-post to lists that bounce non-subscriber e-mails
  184. # [01:58] <Philip`> You mean like the WHATWG list?
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  187. # [02:06] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, specifically people cross-posting to public-html and whatwg
  188. # [02:06] <Hixie> Philip`: it results in fragmented threads when people who are only in one group reply
  189. # [02:07] * Philip` has often noticed Hixie cross-posting to public-html and whatwg
  190. # [02:07] <Hixie> recently?
  191. # [02:07] <Hixie> if i do, i usually do so because the feedback threads were cross-posted, and i ask people not to do this when replying
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  193. # [02:10] <Philip`> Maybe not recently
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  234. # [06:17] * jwalden gets the impression, from reading a few <time> posts, that if there is a problem html5 should address, rdfa will be proposed as the solution to it
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  270. # [09:21] * holst is now known as didymos
  271. # [09:27] <Lachy> apparently polyglot documents can now come in HTML, XHTML and Haiku :-) http://xkcd.com/554/
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  273. # [09:43] <Lachy> re the <time> thread, it seems the use cases for imprecise dates (YYYY or YYYY-MM) seem reasonable and warrant further investigation into the problems being solved.
  274. # [09:43] <Lachy> but as far as historical dates and alternative calendars are concerned, that just seems like massive scope creep
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  283. # [10:25] <annevk> Hixie, how do you calculate the percentage? number of lines?
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  287. # [10:33] <Lachy> Hixie, "My thinking when I made <title> switch to the HTML mode was that this was necessary for supporting <ruby>" -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0219.html
  288. # [10:34] <Lachy> Am I missing something, cause AFAIK, <ruby> is not supported with HTML <title> either, since it's parsed as RCDATA
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  298. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Do WebKit and Gears have any kind of abstraction layer between Web authors and SQLite?
  299. # [11:10] * hsivonen is reading http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/49aa555219df43ae/a34f54cb5db3db70#msg_a54d77a22ec606ca
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  302. # [11:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: Good luck with that (OK so it's not you doing it but…). If Mozilla turns out to be much more strict than Webkit it seems pretty likely to have problems with sites that mainly care about the iPhone
  303. # [11:18] <annevk> I agree we need Web SQL
  304. # [11:19] <annevk> I think there is some layer between authors and SQLite (e.g. to prevent COMMIT), but I'm not sure about the details
  305. # [11:19] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah totally but Webkit has both the important deployment platform (iPhone) and the first mover advantage to effectively define what WebSQL is
  306. # [11:20] <roc> I don't think the iPhone is the only important platform here
  307. # [11:21] <jgraham> roc: OK, iPhone and Android :)
  308. # [11:21] <roc> I don't think phones are the most important platform here eitehr
  309. # [11:21] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  310. # [11:22] <jgraham> Really? I imagine Google doing their Gmail thing (which seems like the killer app) to make it run on those platforms and others basically having to be compatible with whatever Google did
  311. # [11:23] <roc> we'll see
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  313. # [11:23] <annevk> is the platform you're thinking about the desktop roc?
  314. # [11:23] <roc> I think a lot of people would like and use offline support in their desktop/laptop/netbook browser too
  315. # [11:24] <roc> it may be true that Webkit has locked the Web into (some version of) SQLite already
  316. # [11:24] <roc> that would be sad
  317. # [11:25] <jgraham> roc: You particularly dislike SQLite or?
  318. # [11:25] <roc> it seems unwise to tie the Web to one randomly-chosen engine and SQL dialect
  319. # [11:26] <roc> SQLite happens to be the only major SQL engine that lets you stick values of any type in columns declared as other types
  320. # [11:26] <roc> for instance
  321. # [11:26] <jgraham> Oh, well most things about the web are unwise and usually unfortunate. It seems to work pretty well for all that
  322. # [11:26] <roc> "The Web sucks, doesn't matter if we make it suck more" does not make me happy
  323. # [11:27] <annevk> Is there any other option?
  324. # [11:27] <roc> what option?
  325. # [11:27] <annevk> short of inventing a new SQL language and requiring everyone to implement their own database
  326. # [11:27] <roc> it's not obviously too late to try the Web SQL approach
  327. # [11:28] <roc> it seems worth trying
  328. # [11:28] <roc> I hope we'll try it ASAP
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  330. # [11:28] <annevk> oh, yeah, though it seems it will pretty much have to be compatible with SQLite for ease of impl
  331. # [11:29] <roc> that may be OK
  332. # [11:34] <hsivonen> are there live demos of Ubiquity XForms on the Web? I already googled.
  333. # [11:35] <hsivonen> if WebKit exposes SQLite without a query sanitization layer, it seems scary even from a security POV of exposing something intended for trusted developers to untrusted code
  334. # [11:35] * annevk finds https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=414102 throught that thread
  335. # [11:35] * annevk sighs
  336. # [11:36] <annevk> I guess it was naive to assume that SQL was a relatively constrained problem space
  337. # [11:37] * hsivonen finds http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/new_samples/samples/
  338. # [11:37] <annevk> I sure hope we're not going to require stemming algorithms and the like for implementing full text search... I mean, doing it just for English is relatively easy (depending on how far you go), but once you go beyond that...
  339. # [11:39] <roc> yeah, that sucks
  340. # [11:39] <roc> I built a nice i18n-capable text indexing system once that was based on 4-grams
  341. # [11:40] <annevk> hsivonen, loading just input-color.html takes ages and a lot of HTTP requests...
  342. # [11:40] <roc> woah, someone's even been maintaining it
  343. # [11:40] <roc> http://linux.die.net/man/8/squatter
  344. # [11:46] <jgraham> roc: My feeling about SQLite is that, for all it gets complained about, it is used an awful lot in actual quality products
  345. # [11:46] <jgraham> So it is not obviously the worst possible thing
  346. # [11:47] <annevk> it's public domain
  347. # [11:47] <roc> it's not the worst possible thing, sure
  348. # [11:47] <jgraham> annevk: I doubt that is the reason it is used in e.g. Lightroom
  349. # [11:47] <roc> we already ship it in Firefox so exposing it to the Web is fairly low resistance
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  351. # [11:49] <roc> but taking some arbitrary version of SQLite and saying, without really analyzing it, "hey let's make this the database API for the Web for all time" seems irresponsible
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  353. # [11:51] <jgraham> roc: It seems to me that, at best, having any significantly different outcome will require us to move rather fast at this point
  354. # [11:52] <jgraham> Otherwise it will end up like every other part of the web platform
  355. # [11:52] <jgraham> i.e. dictated by the behaviour of an early version of IE or Netscape
  356. # [11:52] <jgraham> (or, in this case, Webkit)
  357. # [11:52] <roc> indeed
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  359. # [11:57] <annevk> might be worth studying http://www.datatables.net/ if we are to revive <datagrid> one day
  360. # [11:59] <jgraham> http://blog.mozbox.org/post/2009/03/10/video-tag-and-subtitles
  361. # [12:02] <roc> yeah that titles hack is cool
  362. # [12:02] <roc> although the execution of arbitrary script from the .srt files in the context of the page is not cool
  363. # [12:04] <jgraham> roc: Indeed. But it lends weight to the idea that people want subtitle-like things with embedded HTML
  364. # [12:05] <roc> people want all kinds of flashy crazy stuff that doesn't make a lot of sense :-)
  365. # [12:05] * roc is now known as rocAway
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  421. # [16:10] <Lachy> with the ElementTree API in python, how do I check the node type of a node to make sure it's an Element and not a comment?
  422. # [16:10] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s55927ef8.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  423. # [16:12] <Lachy> the reason I need that is that I'm using html5lib's parseFragment to parse in a source file, and this returns an array of elements and comments. I then need the script to ignore the comments and process the elements
  424. # [16:13] <jgraham> you could use isinstance(node, etree.Element)
  425. # [16:14] <Lachy> in what package is the isinstance method defined?
  426. # [16:14] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  427. # [16:15] * Dashiva figured ElementTree would only have Elements
  428. # [16:15] * Philip` discovers (too late) that upgrading one's LaTeX installation while simultaneously writing a paper in LaTeX is probably a bad idea
  429. # [16:15] <Dashiva> isinstance is a builtin
  430. # [16:15] <jmb> Philip`: hell yes :)
  431. # [16:16] <Lachy> Dashiva, it does, but it treats comments as a special type of element, and so it makes the etree.iselement() method useless is this case.
  432. # [16:16] <Lachy> if (isinstance(node, etree.Element)):
  433. # [16:16] <Lachy> TypeError: isinstance() arg 2 must be a class, type, or tuple of classes and types
  434. # [16:16] <Philip`> (particularly when this is Gentoo, and so it spends a long time compiling code and regenerating font files and everything)
  435. # [16:17] <karlcow> Lachy: xml.etree.ElementTree.iselement(element)
  436. # [16:17] <Lachy> karlcow, see my comment above to Dashiva
  437. # [16:17] <karlcow> ah just read ;)
  438. # [16:17] <Dashiva> Lachy: Well, do all comments have the same tagname? E.g. #comment
  439. # [16:18] <jgraham> Lachy: Ah I forgot Element is a constructor
  440. # [16:18] <Lachy> all the comments look like <!-- The foo Element -->
  441. # [16:18] <jgraham> You use node.tag == etree.Comment
  442. # [16:18] * jgraham remembers doing this now
  443. # [16:18] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  444. # [16:18] <jgraham> I admit that is not quite obvious
  445. # [16:19] <Philip`> Lachy: Use re.replace('<!--.*?-->', '', markup) before passing it to the parser, and then you know they're not comments
  446. # [16:19] <jgraham> Philip`: Just because you did something stupid with LaTeX doesn't mean that you shouldn't play nice with the other children
  447. # [16:20] <Lachy> jgraham, that worked.
  448. # [16:20] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.249.109.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  449. # [16:20] <Lachy> (except I used != instead of ==)
  450. # [16:20] <karlcow> Philip`: huh?
  451. # [16:21] <Lachy> now I'm trying to use the element.find() method, but the documentation is really poor. http://effbot.org/zone/pythondoc-elementtree-ElementTree.htm#elementtree.ElementTree.ElementTree.find-method
  452. # [16:21] <jgraham> (you could also use not isinstance(node, etree._Comment) but that seems more like a hack
  453. # [16:21] <jgraham> Lachy: What do you want to do?
  454. # [16:21] <jgraham> in lxml you should just use .xpath instead for almost everything
  455. # [16:21] <Lachy> oops, I linked to the wrong one...
  456. # [16:22] <Lachy> http://effbot.org/zone/pythondoc-elementtree-ElementTree.htm#elementtree.ElementTree._ElementInterface.find-method
  457. # [16:22] <jgraham> (iirc .find is like .xpath but with less features)
  458. # [16:22] <Lachy> it doesn't define what syntax the path needs to use though
  459. # [16:23] <jgraham> Lachy: Originally it only searched children
  460. # [16:23] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-20.dynamic.amis.net)
  461. # [16:23] <jgraham> So it would just be .find(tagname)
  462. # [16:23] <jgraham> iirc
  463. # [16:23] <jgraham> Now I think you can do desendants too
  464. # [16:23] <karlcow> jgraham: did you look at lxml for writing html5lib http://codespeak.net/lxml/
  465. # [16:24] <Lachy> How do I do descendants, because node.find("code") doesn't work, because the <code> elements I'm looking for aren't children of the node
  466. # [16:24] <karlcow> Lachy: the find use a classical path
  467. # [16:25] <jgraham> Lachy http://effbot.org/zone/element-xpath.htm documents the syntax
  468. # [16:25] <jgraham> karlcow: I don't understand the question. html5lib can use lxml as the tree representation but it implements a parser
  469. # [16:25] <karlcow> Lachy do you want to find all descendants ?
  470. # [16:26] <jgraham> Lachy: By far the easiest thing to do is node.xpath("//code")
  471. # [16:26] <jgraham> .xpath accepts any xpath 1.0
  472. # [16:26] <jgraham> .find accepts some subset
  473. # [16:26] <karlcow> for ph in content.findall(".//{http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}code"): in XHTML ;)
  474. # [16:27] <karlcow> for ph in content.findall(".//code"): in HTML ;)
  475. # [16:27] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.249.109.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  476. # [16:27] * jgraham mutters something about the XML tax
  477. # [16:27] <karlcow> hehe
  478. # [16:28] * karlcow has no problem with it
  479. # [16:28] <karlcow> in my code I declare it at the start, and then I do not have to worry about it
  480. # [16:28] <Philip`> We should cut the XML tax by 2.5% and allow people to use the shorter namespace http://www.w3.org/1999/html to stimulate the XML economy
  481. # [16:29] <jgraham> Lachy: In general, if you don't care about compat. with non-lxml etree implementations then you should jsut use .xpath for pretty much all cases like this. It is blazing fast and well documented to the extent that xpath is well documented
  482. # [16:30] <jgraham> karlcow: Unless you don't know whether the document was parsed as XHTML or HTML up front
  483. # [16:31] <karlcow> jgraham: what do you mean? you know it if you parse it
  484. # [16:32] * Parts: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-20.dynamic.amis.net)
  485. # [16:32] <Lachy> jgraham, does xpath return a single element or a list of elements?
  486. # [16:32] <jgraham> Lachy: a list
  487. # [16:32] <Lachy> good, that's what I need
  488. # [16:33] <Lachy> I need a list so I can deal with the way elements like h1 to h6 are defined together in the spec
  489. # [16:33] <karlcow> I wonder if Fredrik is in the process of porting to Python 3.0
  490. # [16:33] <Lachy> fwiw, this is the source document I'm working from http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/utils/elements.html (which is itself, generated from the spec using another script)
  491. # [16:33] <karlcow> because ElementTree 1.3 is in beta for a very long time
  492. # [16:34] <Lachy> anyway, the script I'm writing now is using the data in that to build the table of elements and their associated categories.
  493. # [16:35] <karlcow> Lachy: do you detect specific class or id?
  494. # [16:36] <jgraham> karlcow: You could have a system that accepts both XML and HTML and parses them both to etrees. But the differences between the two formats mean that you always need to keep a record of which format you parsed in and use the correct tag names for each case
  495. # [16:36] <jgraham> Python 3.0rc1+ (py3k, Oct 28 2008, 09:23:29).
  496. # [16:36] <jgraham> >>> from xml.etree import ElementTree
  497. # [16:36] <jgraham> >>>
  498. # [16:36] <karlcow> ah cool
  499. # [16:37] * karlcow installed ElementTree 1.3 alpha locally http://effbot.org/zone/elementtree-13-intro.htm
  500. # [16:37] * Quits: annevk5 (n=opera@wifi.ist.utl.pt)
  501. # [16:38] <jgraham> karlcow: Does 1.3 have parent pointers?
  502. # [16:39] <karlcow> hmm I don't know. I installed it, specifically for ET.register_namespace()
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  505. # [16:40] * aroben|phone is now known as aroben
  506. # [16:40] <karlcow> but at first sight it doesn't seem
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  511. # [16:46] <Lachy> karlcow, what class or id are you referring to?
  512. # [16:48] <karlcow> Lachy: I don't know. You said you were building a list, and I was wondering how you were scoping the right elements. In my code usually I subscope by id or class
  513. # [16:49] <karlcow> example
  514. # [16:49] <karlcow> for ph in billet.findall(".//{http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}meta"):
  515. # [16:49] <karlcow> if ph.attrib.has_key('name') and ph.attrib['name'] == 'keywords':
  516. # [16:49] <karlcow> keywords = ph.attrib['content']
  517. # [16:49] <karlcow> return keywords
  518. # [16:52] * jgraham barely remembers that has_key exists
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  520. # [16:52] <jgraham> 'in' ftw
  521. # [16:53] * gsnedders stretches
  522. # [16:55] <gsnedders> Is there any way to avoid having to prefix everything with {http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}?
  523. # [16:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: but namespaces FTW!
  524. # [16:58] <Lachy> karlcow, no, I'm just relying on the fact that I know the structure of the markup
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  527. # [17:00] <Lachy> wtf?! The result I'm getting is not making any sense at all
  528. # [17:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not sure. Maybe using the Namespace API somehow but I'm not sure
  529. # [17:00] <Lachy> node.xpath("//table//tr[1]//li") is returning li items that are not descendants of node!
  530. # [17:00] <jgraham> In case you didn't realise I'm not sure
  531. # [17:02] <jgraham> Lachy: try node.xpath(".//table//tr[1]//li")
  532. # [17:02] <Lachy> ah, it works if I use a "." to match the current node. But it still makes no sense why it's searching the other nodes too node.xpath(".//table//tr[1]//li")
  533. # [17:02] * jgraham is guessing
  534. # [17:03] <jgraham> Lachy: AIUI xpath treats // at the start of the expression as mean "search from the document root"
  535. # [17:03] <gsnedders> Lachy: It makes perfect sense!
  536. # [17:03] <gsnedders> Yeah
  537. # [17:03] <Hixie> my feeling that it's way too early doesn't bode well for tomorrow when i have to get up even earlier
  538. # [17:03] <Lachy> but I don't have a document node. I'm using html5lib's parseFragment which is returning a list of Element nodes
  539. # [17:04] * Quits: Mau`werk (n=ano@89.184.185.248) ("Disconnected...")
  540. # [17:04] <jgraham> Lachy: Guess again
  541. # [17:04] <Lachy> jgraham, no.
  542. # [17:04] <jgraham> lxml has no concept of a node without a document
  543. # [17:04] <Lachy> ah, well, that's just confusing
  544. # [17:04] <jgraham> I guess s/lxml/libxml2/ probably
  545. # [17:04] <Lachy> I really wish lxml had selectors api support so I didn't have to work with this xpath nonsense
  546. # [17:05] <smedero> http://codespeak.net/lxml/dev/cssselect.html
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  548. # [17:05] <jgraham> smedero: I was going to say that
  549. # [17:05] <jgraham> meanie
  550. # [17:05] <jgraham> ;)
  551. # [17:05] * smedero shuffles back to his cave
  552. # [17:06] <jgraham> Lachy: Bonus points if you get it to run the selectors api testsuite :)
  553. # [17:07] <Lachy> awesome
  554. # [17:08] <Philip`> Lachy: You should write you code in JS in a browser, rather than in Python
  555. # [17:12] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  556. # [17:12] <Lachy> Philip`, if I had a JavaScript engine avaialble with DOM support that would let me run javascripts from the command line and write to standard output, then I would
  557. # [17:14] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@135.196.169.246)
  558. # [17:17] <jgraham> http://www.croczilla.com/jssh
  559. # [17:17] <jgraham> It sounds like more effort than just writing the python though
  560. # [17:21] <Lachy> nice. I will look at that later
  561. # [17:27] <karlcow> gsnedders: you can create a variable for the namespace, so you can shorten the typing ;)
  562. # [17:29] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  563. # [17:34] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  564. # [17:34] * smedero wonders when Hixie is planning on doing a check-in for the authoring stylesheet work...
  565. # [17:35] <Hixie> when i reach the bottom :-)
  566. # [17:35] <smedero> (the multipage and w3c versions seem to be quite a bit out-of-sync with the whatwg single page... maybe it is no big deal.)
  567. # [17:35] <Hixie> about 51% in so far, by line
  568. # [17:35] <Philip`> smedero: I assume it's when he's reached 110%
  569. # [17:35] <Philip`> Hixie: I hope you're going to annotate the acknowledgements section so it only lists people who have contributed to the author-relevant sections of the spec
  570. # [17:36] <Hixie> Philip`: i do intend to annotate the acknowledgements section though not along those lines
  571. # [17:37] <jgraham> Just personal insults about the contrbuters?
  572. # [17:37] <Hixie> nah
  573. # [17:37] <Hixie> just hiding one paragraph that makes no sense to the author section
  574. # [17:37] <Philip`> The $10,000 one?
  575. # [17:38] <Philip`> I'd prefer a version with insults
  576. # [17:38] <Philip`> as long as they're entertaining ones
  577. # [17:40] <Lachy> Philip`, use the annotation system to insert notes into the spec :-)
  578. # [17:40] <Lachy> s/notes/insults/
  579. # [17:42] <Philip`> Lachy: I can't, because I've set my browser to block access to the status script
  580. # [17:42] <Lachy> is that because it's slow?
  581. # [17:43] <Lachy> it no longer freezes Opera
  582. # [17:43] <Philip`> No, it's because it was slow
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  597. # [18:30] <sayrer_> Lachy, if you build Firefox you get a thing called XPCShell
  598. # [18:30] <sayrer_> it has all the DOM stuff
  599. # [18:30] <gavin> you mean XPCOM stuff?
  600. # [18:30] <gavin> I guess that includes some DOM stuff
  601. # [18:31] <sayrer_> I think all the DOM works now
  602. # [18:31] <sayrer_> someone finally fixed it to work in there
  603. # [18:31] <sayrer_> Maybe some globals are missing
  604. # [18:31] <gavin> still accessed via xpcom though?
  605. # [18:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  606. # [18:32] <sayrer_> gavin, you have to use XPCOM to get a DOMParser, I think. But once you have that, I think it works right, with all the shortcuts.
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  608. # [18:34] <sayrer_> oh wait, no it doesn't
  609. # [18:35] <sayrer_> cause my hack to let it do text/html isn't in the tree
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  612. # [18:42] <jcranmer> hmm
  613. # [18:42] <jcranmer> on the /. article about MS possibly dumping Trident
  614. # [18:43] <jcranmer> I see several wildly different figures for non-IE market share
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  616. # [18:43] <Philip`> jcranmer: How many of those figures have at least two decimal places in their percentages?
  617. # [18:43] <jcranmer> 0
  618. # [18:43] <jcranmer> they're all to 1 significant figure
  619. # [18:44] <sid0> jcranmer: link? can't see it on /.
  620. # [18:44] <jcranmer> http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/10/1942232
  621. # [18:44] <sid0> oh, heh, no wonder I didn't see it -- i removed kdawson from my authors list
  622. # [18:45] <jcranmer> FF has ~20% market share, Safari ~ 2-3%, IE ~ 70-75%, Others <1%, IIRC
  623. # [18:45] <jcranmer> I sure hope MS continues to develop its own engine for IE
  624. # [18:46] <Philip`> I think Safari people like to quote the numbers from http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=1 which says Safari is at 8%
  625. # [18:47] * Joins: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  626. # [18:47] <jcranmer> I am recalling from early-to-mid 2008, so my Safari may be underrepresented
  627. # [18:47] <Philip`> That page says 6% in mid-2008
  628. # [18:48] <jcranmer> WP seems to be quoting 8% for Safari
  629. # [18:48] <jcranmer> based on Net Applications
  630. # [18:48] <jcranmer> oh, same site
  631. # [18:49] <jcranmer> most of the other sites show lower numbers for Safari
  632. # [18:49] <Philip`> On Canvex, with ~800 visitors in the past few weeks, I see 56% Firefox, 17% IE, 11% Safari, 7% Chrome, 6% Opera
  633. # [18:49] <Philip`> which I guess is not exactly following the typical distribution of users
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  635. # [18:50] <jcranmer> market share is tricky business
  636. # [18:50] <Philip`> Defining markets is a tricky business
  637. # [18:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: 17% for IE is fun
  638. # [18:51] <jcranmer> the only thing I can say with certainty is my school's intranet statistics
  639. # [18:51] <gsnedders> Like, with IE's well-known support for canvas
  640. # [18:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: The game page is application/xhtml+xml, too
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  642. # [18:51] <Philip`> (These stats are just for the front page)
  643. # [18:51] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  644. # [18:53] <jcranmer> 53% IE 6, 13% IE 7+, 23% FF (~20% FF 3+), 5% Safari, ~2.5% Chrome, 0.3% Opera
  645. # [18:53] <sayrer_> numbers from a friend's architecture + design blog:
  646. # [18:53] <sayrer_> 45.89% Firefox, 29.66% IE, 19.06% Safari, 2.94% Chrome, 1.19% Opera
  647. # [18:53] <gsnedders> Lies, damned lies and statistics!
  648. # [18:54] <sayrer_> US skewed, but pretty popular
  649. # [18:54] <jcranmer> the high FF 2.0.0.6 + IE 6 numbers comes from school computers
  650. # [18:54] <gsnedders> But while we're at it, numbers for SimplePie's website:
  651. # [18:54] <gsnedders> (over past 72 hours)
  652. # [18:55] <gsnedders> 67% Firefox, 16% Safari, 12% IE, 3% Opera, nothing else reaches 1%
  653. # [18:55] <jcranmer> if you exclude school computers (i.e., look at a weekend's statistics), you get something more like 20% IE and 50-60% FF
  654. # [18:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: Is Chrome <1%, or are you just failing to count it?
  655. # [18:56] <gsnedders> Dunno
  656. # [18:58] <jcranmer> in any case, I really hope MS doesn't use Webkit in IE 9+
  657. # [18:58] <Philip`> Hmm, Google has a mobile bot?
  658. # [18:58] <jcranmer> that would force the market into a duopoly again
  659. # [18:59] <gsnedders> I agree with Hixie that it would be highly unlikely after putting so much work into IE8
  660. # [18:59] <jcranmer> it seems too speculative
  661. # [18:59] <Philip`> SAMSUNG-SGH-E250/1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 UP.Browser/6.2.3.3.c.1.101 (GUI) MMP/2.0 (compatible; Googlebot-Mobile/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html)
  662. # [18:59] <jcranmer> if IE 8 is as good as reports claim it is, Trident wouldn't be worth scrapping
  663. # [19:00] <Philip`> jcranmer: Belief in the authenticity of the speculation is not helped by it talking about Gazelle as if it were a new browser engine
  664. # [19:00] * sid0 wonders what reports jcranmer has been reading
  665. # [19:01] <jcranmer> Philip`: I imagine it would be a revamp in surrounding sandboxing issues
  666. # [19:03] <Philip`> jcranmer: That's kind of what Gazelle is, but the article linked from Slashdot seemed to be entirely unaware of that
  667. # [19:04] <jcranmer> I figured it was misinformation
  668. # [19:05] <Philip`> (hence me not putting much faith in their speculation)
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  751. # Session Close: Thu Mar 12 00:00:00 2009

The end :)