/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 13 00:00:01 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <jcranmer> why are non-Gregorian dates such a big deal?
  4. # [00:03] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121) (Remote closed the connection)
  5. # [00:03] <jcranmer> point 1: How many people are actually going to add in <time> elements for all of their dates?
  6. # [00:04] <jcranmer> point 2: How many of those people are cogniscent of the Gregorian/Julian calendar issues?
  7. # [00:04] <jcranmer> point 3: How many of those will actually care enough to do it right?
  8. # [00:05] <jcranmer> if it's that much of an issue, just make it the Hixie calendar: an integer denoting the time in days since Hixie's birthday
  9. # [00:06] <jcranmer> </rant>
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  12. # [00:09] <Philip`> jcranmer: If we do that, we'll build up an entire civilisation based on offsets from Hixie's birthday, and then we'll probably find out that actually Hixie was born around four years earlier than that
  13. # [00:09] <Philip`> and then we won't be sure whether he even existed, or was just a fiction created by the WHATWG cabal
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  15. # [00:10] <jcranmer> ok then, how about a better time
  16. # [00:10] <jcranmer> 1234567890 in Unix time?
  17. # [00:10] <jcranmer> February 29, 1900?
  18. # [00:10] <jcranmer> Smarch 13, 1313?
  19. # [00:11] <Philip`> January 1, 1601
  20. # [00:11] <Philip`> in order to match Windows
  21. # [00:11] <Philip`> (http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/03/06/9461176.aspx)
  22. # [00:14] <kig> how about a floating point number that measures the count of planck intervals from the present time in the current frame of reference
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  24. # [00:14] <kig> floating point just to be sure and present time because it simplifies calculations because the current time is always 0.0
  25. # [00:15] <Philip`> kig: If it's Planck intervals, why not just use integers?
  26. # [00:17] <kig> future proof
  27. # [00:17] <Philip`> Are you expecting the laws of physics to change in the future?
  28. # [00:17] <kig> most certainly
  29. # [00:18] <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose it's good to make sure HTML5 is prepared for that future and won't be adding to our problems in such an eventuality
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  31. # [00:19] <kig> oh, better make it a complex number, i hear they're all the rage in quantum probability
  32. # [00:19] <Lachy> kig, who's frame of reference, exactly? It would be kind of hard since everyone's frame of reference is slightly different, because it's based on how fast they're moving and slight differences in gravity
  33. # [00:19] <kig> well, the frame of reference of the author
  34. # [00:19] <kig> or rather, the document
  35. # [00:19] <kig> at the present point in time on the present device
  36. # [00:19] <Philip`> Lachy: Relative time offsets from daylight saving is hard enough, we don't want to add relativity too :-(
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  39. # [00:22] <kig> and as all the times you define are relative to the document, it's super easy to say things like <time value="5*60*plank_per_sec">five minutes from now</time> (but saying 5th of march 2007 is a bit more difficult)
  40. # [00:22] <Philip`> Planck intervals from the present time are fine to add into HTML5, but we've got to draw the line somewhere
  41. # [00:24] <Lachy> let's make it the number of plank intervals since the big bang in a standardised hypothetical reference frame
  42. # [00:25] * Lachy chooses to ignore the fact that our current estimate for the age of the earth has a 0.4 billion year margin of error.
  43. # [00:25] <Lachy> s/earth/univers/
  44. # [00:25] <Lachy> *universe
  45. # [00:26] <Philip`> Wikipedia says it's more like +/- 0.12 billion years, which isn't nearly so bad
  46. # [00:26] <kig> you say -1, i say 2^32
  47. # [00:26] <Lachy> oh, last I heard, it was +/- 0.2
  48. # [00:27] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe - "Current theory and observations suggest that this is between 13.61 and 13.85 billion years.[1]" - it's got a citation so it must be true
  49. # [00:28] <Lachy> did you actually follow the citation?
  50. # [00:28] <Philip`> Of course not
  51. # [00:28] <kig> i.. probably should've written a test generator rather than more tests
  52. # [00:29] <Philip`> kig: But if you wrote a test generator, you'd have to write tests for the test generator to make sure it doesn't have bugs
  53. # [00:29] <Lachy> the cited PDF has a table that lists the age of the universe as "013.72 ± 0.12 Gyr " in the column entitled "WMAP+BAO+SN"
  54. # [00:31] <jcranmer> how about the frame of reference of the Scott-Amundsen Research Base?
  55. # [00:31] <kig> Philip`: actually, if you take a fault injector that tests your tests (if your tests fail to catch the fault, your tests have a bug) and an evolutionary test generator and let them duke it out
  56. # [00:31] <Philip`> That only differs from Wikipedia by ten million years, which is neither here nor there
  57. # [00:32] <Lachy> sure, but if we're measuring in plank intervals, that's a huge margin of error
  58. # [00:32] <jcranmer> the Big Bang also happened on October 23, 4004 BC
  59. # [00:32] <jcranmer> :-)
  60. # [00:33] <kig> how near c do you have to be travelling for that to be true?
  61. # [00:33] <Lachy> jcranmer, did you just make up the October 23 date, or are there creationists actually claiming that's the specific date?
  62. # [00:33] <Philip`> I thought the Big Bang was the goal of Great A'Tuin in the distant future
  63. # [00:34] <jcranmer> Lachy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher
  64. # [00:35] <Lachy> wow
  65. # [00:36] <Philip`> It's not like they had any better evidence to go by in those days
  66. # [00:36] <rubys> "Ussher was a gifted polyglot" :-)
  67. # [00:38] <Philip`> Polyglot sounds like a horrid disease
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  112. # [07:14] * MikeSmith contemplates jumping into the <time> thread on whatwg list, decides against it
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  119. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you around?
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  128. # [08:05] * jwalden wonders how many people who attempted http://blag.xkcd.com/2009/02/11/a-math-problem-2/ did so using a URL like data:text/html,%3Ctextarea%20rows=50%20cols=100%3E as a scratchpad
  129. # [08:05] <jwalden> I'm such a wacko
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  134. # [08:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm around now
  135. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: accesskey is still in the WHATTF schema but did not survive the integration of WF2 into HTML5
  136. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> you OK with removing it?
  137. # [08:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: removing it is ok
  138. # [08:32] <hsivonen> eek. lots of <time> email
  139. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  140. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> and that <time> discussion seems to be looping through the same 2 or 3 people
  141. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> wonder how many other people are paying attention to that discussion, or care
  142. # [08:35] <hsivonen> I care a bit, but for now, I trust Hixie's gatekeeping abilities. I'll scream when I find several historic calendars on my validation todo list.
  143. # [08:43] <jwalden> expanding the range of representable dates seems fine
  144. # [08:43] <jwalden> supporting alternate date schemes is insane
  145. # [08:44] <jwalden> although, honestly, I'm not sure how much value I see in <time> over any number of other elements to semanticize otherwise-meaningless markup
  146. # [08:45] <hsivonen> jwalden: adding BCE dates to <input type=date> seems like implementation and QA cost without a compelling upside
  147. # [08:45] <hsivonen> I bet that would be the next step after <time>
  148. # [08:46] <jwalden> frankly, if it were up to me I think I'd just constrain range to that of ECMAScript and be done with it
  149. # [08:46] <jwalden> whatever that range is
  150. # [08:48] <jwalden> but this isn't something I care much about either way anyway
  151. # [08:48] <jwalden> beyond wishing people would say their keep and shut up
  152. # [08:49] * hsivonen resists the urge to reply to chaals' <time> email
  153. # [08:50] * jwalden high-fives hsivonen for acting so :-)
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  163. # [09:34] <zcorpan> http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-content/html-5-supersedes-web-forms-20-004054.php
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  165. # [09:52] <Lachy> hsivonen, if you did respond to chaals' <time> email, what would you say?
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  168. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'd ask about loosely coupled without bilateral agreement consuming software use cases
  169. # [09:56] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@194.65.73.66)
  170. # [09:59] <Lachy> if the spec does end up allowing BCE years, then I look forward to seeing errors of the form <time datetime="-0001-01-01">1 BCE</time> (due to the year 0000 complication)
  171. # [10:00] <jwalden> ...and window.event bites MS again when some MessageEvent properties are readonly <http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/12/site-compatibility-and-ie8.aspx>
  172. # [10:01] <jwalden> although, if their documentation is to be believed, only .source is readonly, probably because they didn't want to break people using .data (or the like) properties
  173. # [10:02] * jwalden really doesn't understand why they don't bite the bullet and at least implement proper event-passing, if not full w3 event model compliance
  174. # [10:05] <zcorpan> clearly getting markup parsed and serialized correctly is a hard problem when using text-based templates. i tried cmsms and found various problems with using the wrong encoding, expanding entities when they shouldn't, etc, and even their bug tracker failed to escape markup in the bug heading
  175. # [10:06] <zcorpan> (http://dev.cmsmadesimple.org/bug/view/3155 )
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  177. # [10:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: you filed an XSS hole as a bug report that runs JS? :-)
  178. # [10:07] <zcorpan> yeah :) although i maybe filed it in the wrong place
  179. # [10:10] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/03/12-minutes.html o_O
  180. # [10:15] * zcorpan wonders what the "old" namespace is
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  182. # [10:19] <Lachy> zcorpan, AFAICT, the "old" namespace refers to the 1999 namespace
  183. # [10:21] <Lachy> it's strange how they were discussing the MIME type too. I wasn't aware anyone had complained about the reuse of the XHTML MIME type for XHTML2. Only the namespace.
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  185. # [10:26] <annevk> so apparently not defining error handling for character leads to XSS issues
  186. # [10:27] <annevk> IE when seeing a UTF-8 byte that indicates two more bytes follow will replace all three bytes with a replacement character where other browsers just replace the first
  187. # [10:27] <annevk> so if you insert such a byte just before the end of the attribute you can do stuff
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  189. # [10:30] <jgraham> annevk: Neat
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  193. # [10:35] <hsivonen> wouldn't application/xml make sense for XHTML2 as the MIME type if XHTML2 is what it says it is?
  194. # [10:35] <hsivonen> did I read the TAG minutes correctly that the TAG isn't asking XHTML5 to change its namespace?
  195. # [10:37] <zcorpan> hmm http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-dial-primer-20071101/intro1.png
  196. # [10:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: seems like a model totally obsoleted by the iPhone, Opera Mini and Opera on Wii
  197. # [10:39] <annevk> hsivonen, dunno, I read it in a way as that they are unclear as to what should happen
  198. # [10:39] <zcorpan> maybe it's just me but [HTML5+SVG+CSS (server)] --> [HTML5+SVG+CSS (all clients)] seems simpler
  199. # [10:41] <jgraham> That diagram is kinda crazy
  200. # [10:42] <jgraham> Why would you send XHTML to desktops but HTML to WebTV?
  201. # [10:43] <jgraham> And why the obsession with the idea that mobiles can only do XHTML-MP desite the fact that there are literally millions of mobiles with HTML support
  202. # [10:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's the official motivation XHTML-MP, so it must be true
  203. # [10:44] <zcorpan> i'm thinking of registring a .mobi domain, but i don't know what it should be
  204. # [10:44] <jgraham> zcorpan: For any reason?
  205. # [10:44] <zcorpan> for my personal site
  206. # [10:44] <zcorpan> that i don't yet have
  207. # [10:44] <jgraham> Ah
  208. # [10:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what kind of content do you plan on serving?
  209. # [10:45] <annevk> zcorpan, http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4055 has a spammer
  210. # [10:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: can they revoke your .mobi domain if your content isn't MobileOk?
  211. # [10:45] <jgraham> I was hoping that you could register doesw3cthinkimevil.mobi that just runs XHTML-MP tests and says "Yes" if they fail and "No" if they pass
  212. # [10:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i doubt it
  213. # [10:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: just a blog or something
  214. # [10:47] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks
  215. # [10:47] <hsivonen> I suppose I should make sure I only read zcorpan's blog on the bus to make sure the mobile context is right :-)
  216. # [10:48] * jgraham reads a cople of emails from the <time> thread, finds a debate about the meaning of the year 0, gives up
  217. # [10:49] <zcorpan> jgraham: too long and i want other content than just "Yes" :)
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  219. # [10:49] <zcorpan> but keep em coming
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  221. # [10:49] <zcorpan> i was thinking of spacergifs.mobi
  222. # [10:49] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  223. # [10:50] <jgraham> tablelayout.mobi
  224. # [10:50] <zcorpan> yeah or nestedtables.mobi
  225. # [10:50] <jgraham> Can you get html.mobi
  226. # [10:50] <zcorpan> already taken
  227. # [10:50] <hsivonen> my top mobile destinations are the damowmow portal and planet intertwingly, neither of which are .mobi :-/
  228. # [10:51] <hsivonen> oh, and krijnhoetmer.nl, of course
  229. # [10:52] <annevk> "thistldsucks.mobi" is available!
  230. # [10:52] <annevk> -- http://mtld.mobi/domain/whois?q=domain/whois
  231. # [10:55] <jgraham> feff.mobi?
  232. # [10:57] <zcorpan> jgraham: that's available but i don't get the joke
  233. # [10:58] <jgraham> zcorpan: Not really a joke, just a BOM Which doesn't quite seem like what you are looking for but does have the practical advantage of being easier to type on a mobile keypad
  234. # [11:01] <zcorpan> ok... any other suggestions? :)
  235. # [11:01] <hsivonen> html5.mobi is taken :-( presumably by a squatter, since there's no HTTP server
  236. # [11:02] <annevk> iusethistldforlaughs
  237. # [11:02] <jgraham> dotmobiftw.mobi
  238. # [11:03] <annevk> spacergif.mobi is still pretty good I think
  239. # [11:03] * zcorpan wants an indirect reference to .mobi
  240. # [11:03] <zcorpan> yeah
  241. # [11:03] <zcorpan> gif or gifs?
  242. # [11:04] <zcorpan> i guess i'll settle for the shorter
  243. # [11:04] <annevk> it's a better blog title I think
  244. # [11:04] <annevk> (the singular)
  245. # [11:05] <zcorpan> yep.
  246. # [11:09] <zcorpan> ok registered
  247. # [11:10] <annevk> if you take some kind of hosting account somewhere i can prolly transfer complete control of simon.html5.org to you
  248. # [11:10] <annevk> alternatively you can use more space on my server
  249. # [11:10] <zcorpan> i'll use the same host as my mom :)
  250. # [11:11] <annevk> "server"
  251. # [11:12] * jgraham never got that offer
  252. # [11:12] <jgraham> :-p
  253. # [11:13] <annevk> here it is :)
  254. # [11:15] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  255. # [11:17] * jgraham has discovered that registereing a domain name you don't know how to pronounce makes giving out your email address harder
  256. # [11:47] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  257. # [11:50] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  264. # [12:09] <beowulf> talking to the tld about xhtml probably won't help win the .mobi is evil argument
  265. # [12:10] <beowulf> they're bound by contract so to speak
  266. # [12:12] <beowulf> i believe they see html5 as a good path forward, but they have to do what they're told
  267. # [12:32] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@pD9579652.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  268. # [12:35] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@194.65.73.66)
  269. # [12:41] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@194.65.73.66)
  270. # [12:49] <hsivonen> beowulf: who is "they" and who is bound by contract?
  271. # [12:51] <beowulf> hsivonen: afaik .mobi, the company that runs the tld and enforces the xhtml-ness, are bound by a contract with ICANN
  272. # [12:51] <beowulf> i could be wrong though
  273. # [12:51] <hsivonen> beowulf: bound by contract with ICANN to enforce XHTML-ness???
  274. # [12:51] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  275. # [12:52] <hsivonen> beowulf: Gandi's registration services don't warn me that .mobi requires XHTML. (Or if they do warn, it's not obvious.)
  276. # [12:52] * Joins: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  277. # [12:52] <beowulf> hsivonen: again, maybe i'm wrong, but that tld has a contractual obligation to ensure the domains use xhtml
  278. # [12:52] <beowulf> s/,//
  279. # [12:52] <hsivonen> beowulf: wow
  280. # [12:53] <beowulf> so even if they were accutely aware of the state of the web, say for example because they spider all .mobi domains, they couldn't do much about it
  281. # [12:54] <beowulf> and they may also be aware of the state of mobile browsers wrt xml parsers
  282. # [12:54] <beowulf> but maybe their hands are tied
  283. # [12:54] <hsivonen> beowulf: is the contract because ICANN wouldn't have minted a new TLD without a story telling how it is special?
  284. # [12:55] <beowulf> hsivonen: i wouldn't know
  285. # [12:55] <Philip`> http://www.opensrs.com/resources/documentation/opensrsrwi/mobi_compliance.htm
  286. # [12:55] <jgraham> http://mtld.mobi/ is text/html with an XHTML doctype
  287. # [12:56] <jgraham> (not XHTML-MP)
  288. # [12:56] <beowulf> there's enough wiggle room in the contract to serve XHTML like HTML as text/html, i guess
  289. # [12:57] <Philip`> jgraham: Are you seeing a non-mobile version of that page?
  290. # [12:57] <jgraham> Philip`: Maybe
  291. # [12:57] <beowulf> jgraham: the mtld site sends different content to a desktop than it does to a mobile device
  292. # [12:58] <Philip`> jgraham: With Opera 9.63, I see a mobile-optimised (i.e. ugly) page with <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//WAPFORUM//DTD XHTML Mobile 1.0//EN" "http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/xhtml-mobile10.dtd">
  293. # [12:58] <Philip`> jgraham: but with FF2 I see one with lots of images and stuff
  294. # [12:58] <annevk> It's unclear whether those rules are actually enforced. E.g. opera.mobi has redirected to opera.com for longer than 60 days
  295. # [12:58] <jgraham> Philip`: What mime type?
  296. # [12:58] <Philip`> jgraham: How do I find out?
  297. # [12:58] <beowulf> annevk: as i understand it the rules are not currently enforced
  298. # [12:58] <jgraham> You are supposed to use application/vnd.wap.xhtml+xml
  299. # [12:58] <jgraham> Philip`: Dragonfly?
  300. # [12:59] <beowulf> but maybe they've come to a point where enforcing the rules would cause massive problems
  301. # [12:59] * Philip` tries View Source and inserting non-XML stuff, and it seems to parse it like HTML instead of fatally erring
  302. # [13:00] <beowulf> and maybe the very idea of trying to enforce those rules brings up questions about the whole xhtml idea, who knows
  303. # [13:00] * beowulf speculates wildly
  304. # [13:00] <Philip`> jgraham: (I've got no idea how to view HTTP headers in Dragonfly, and can't find any relevant buttons)
  305. # [13:02] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh. Myabe we don't support that then
  306. # [13:02] * annevk finds out about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.tel
  307. # [13:02] * jgraham couldn't really remember
  308. # [13:04] * Philip` can't quite tell whether .tel is an abuse of DNS, or a decent way of using it
  309. # [13:04] <beowulf> ICANN, making money out of DNS since 1998
  310. # [13:04] <annevk> with what they're charging it looks like a scam
  311. # [13:06] <Philip`> annevk: They're only charging a lot at the beginning - the standard rate seems much more normal
  312. # [13:06] <Philip`> http://iwi.gandibar.net/post/2008/11/26/Launching-of-TEL says €14/yr after March 24
  313. # [13:07] * beowulf wonders if they've resevered a bunch of names to auction
  314. # [13:08] <annevk> I'm surprised this hasn't come up in the TAG
  315. # [13:08] * jgraham wonders how you determine trademark holders given that multiple entities may legitimatley have the same trademark
  316. # [13:08] <Philip`> jgraham: "first-come, first-served", it says
  317. # [13:09] <beowulf> jgraham: wipo
  318. # [13:10] <Philip`> (and trademarks must have been registered before 30 May 2008)
  319. # [13:10] <Philip`> (so you can't just register one in an obscure country and then immediately buy the .tel domain)
  320. # [13:10] <beowulf> didn't ICANN recently say they'd allow anyone to set up a tld? so foo.html5 might be possible in the future?
  321. # [13:11] <Philip`> beowulf: That was proposed and seemed to have significant support within ICANN
  322. # [13:11] <Philip`> and I guess the support is completely unrelated to the fact you have to pay ICANN a zillion dollars for a TLD
  323. # [13:11] <jgraham> I thought it was confirmed. But I heard that on /. so I guess it is probably not true
  324. # [13:12] <beowulf> http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-2-23oct08-en.htm
  325. # [13:12] <beowulf> "a per applicant fee of $US185,000"
  326. # [13:12] <jgraham> "innovation, Choice and Diversity"
  327. # [13:13] <beowulf> there's about 185000 members of the w3c + whatwg, $1 each and ...
  328. # [13:13] <annevk> didn't congress or so block that?
  329. # [13:14] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLD#cite_ref-7 - "the U.S. Department of Commerce reiterated the statement that it has "no plans to transition management of the authoritative root zone file to ICANN.""
  330. # [13:14] <jgraham> I will believe in the unlimited tlds thing more once people get the idea that webservers don't all start www.
  331. # [13:14] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  332. # [13:15] <Philip`> jgraham: I'd much rather live in a world where all web sites start with www. than one in which all web sites start with http:// or one in which it's impossible to easily tell that a certain string is meant to be a web site URL
  333. # [13:15] <Philip`> (http:// is bad because it's hard to pronounce)
  334. # [13:15] <annevk> "The total fee per applicant takes into account close to $US13 million invested by ICANN since October 2007 to put the design of the implementation program in place."
  335. # [13:15] <Philip`> (and people on TV read it out in really annoying ways)
  336. # [13:15] <beowulf> jgraham: a local company here spent some time on a new url, u.tv (the company is called UTV), no-one got it
  337. # [13:15] <annevk> whoa
  338. # [13:16] <beowulf> had to change all the advertising to www.u.tv
  339. # [13:16] <annevk> those guys must be making shitloads of money
  340. # [13:16] <beowulf> annevk: yes
  341. # [13:16] <Philip`> annevk: Charging people multiple dollars per year for the privilege of putting a few hundred bytes in a database is a pretty good business model if you can make it work for you
  342. # [13:17] <jgraham> Philip`: We're kind of stuck with the http:// thing though. www isn't even particccularly easy to say
  343. # [13:17] <beowulf> 20 cents per domain
  344. # [13:18] <beowulf> per year
  345. # [13:18] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  346. # [13:18] <beowulf> still a lot though :)
  347. # [13:19] <Philip`> The distributed nature of DNS is a bit pointless really - I think Google should set up its own domain name system, where you connect directly to a Google data center's IP address and ask it to look up details in its centralised database
  348. # [13:19] <Philip`> It'd be much easier that way
  349. # [13:19] <Philip`> and it could replace ICANN
  350. # [13:20] <Lachy> Philip`, that would create a single failure point for the entire web
  351. # [13:20] * jgraham mutters something about tinyurl
  352. # [13:21] <Lachy> tinyurls suck for more reasons than that
  353. # [13:21] <Philip`> Lachy: But that single point is Google, and we can trust Google to not go down
  354. # [13:22] <jgraham> Lachy: I never claimed otherwise. But it would be really worrying if anyone cared about twitter archives
  355. # [13:22] <Lachy> of course, because Google has proven that it can successfully last a decade, and so that means it can last forever.
  356. # [13:23] * jgraham gets a reading on his irony-o-meter
  357. # [13:23] * beowulf picks the needle from jgraham's meter out of the wall
  358. # [13:23] * Lachy wonders how many companies of any kind have lasted more than century or two
  359. # [13:24] <Philip`> If Google was ever going to collapse and take the whole internet with it, it could just get a government bail-out
  360. # [13:24] <beowulf> the vatican
  361. # [13:24] <Philip`> Nintendo
  362. # [13:24] <Lachy> the vatican isn't a company
  363. # [13:24] <beowulf> the vatican to replace ICANN
  364. # [13:24] <Lachy> Guiness
  365. # [13:24] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  366. # [13:24] <jgraham> Lachy: They have a better business model than most companies
  367. # [13:25] <Lachy> who? Guiness or the Vatican?
  368. # [13:25] <jgraham> The vatican :)
  369. # [13:25] <Philip`> Nintendo could replace DNS names with friend codes, so you can only visit web sites if you've already met the webmaster and exchanged codes, as a way of constructing a trust network
  370. # [13:26] <jgraham> Nintendo could identify websites by Mii so to go to the Microsoft website, for example, you'd have to find the Microsoft Mii in the Mii Plaza
  371. # [13:27] <beowulf> i think that would look like a middle ages battlefield
  372. # [13:28] <beowulf> dead mii's everywhere, a few standing
  373. # [13:28] <jgraham> The slashdot Mii would be throwing rocks at the Microsoft Mii who would be blissfully oblivious
  374. # [13:28] <Lachy> I'm not sure what the Mii plaza is (though I assume it's something to do with the Wii)
  375. # [13:29] <jgraham> The Reddit Mii would be behind the bikesheds with the 4chan Mii
  376. # [13:31] * Philip` thinks someone should port Dungeon Keeper to the Wii, and replace the characters with Miis so you can slap them around with your Hand of Evil and drop them in the torture chamber
  377. # [13:31] <Philip`> That would much more fun than going bowling with them
  378. # [13:33] * Quits: olliej_ (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  379. # [13:38] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  380. # [13:50] <zcorpan> Philip`: what's correct behavior for 'copy' in http://simon.html5.org/dump/html5-canvas-cheat-sheet.html ?
  381. # [13:52] <Philip`> zcorpan: You should get just a red circle, because the circle is drawn onto an infinite transparent plane and then that plane is composited (with 'copy') onto the canvas and replaces all the pixels
  382. # [13:54] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.composite.uncovered.fill.copy - only Opera matches the spec, other people don't affect pixels that are outside the shape that's being painted
  383. # [13:54] <kig> anyone want to write tests for a [part of] hundred opengl canvas functions :>? goals for the tests (in the order of importance): crash the driver, hang the driver, crash the browser, read data that doesn't belong to the current gl context, read non-SOP data, hang the browser, hang the page, find stuff that doesn't work like it should
  384. # [13:55] <zcorpan> Philip`: so in firefox and webkit it's effectively the same as source-over?
  385. # [13:56] <Philip`> kig: Are there any expectations that people use modern or high-quality drivers, or does it include the thousands of many-years-old horribly-buggy drivers that people use in reality?
  386. # [13:57] <Philip`> kig: (because it's probably much easier to cause crashes in the latter case, but much harder to test)
  387. # [13:57] <kig> modern high-quality drivers, i don't expect this thing to see the light of day before the modern high-quality drivers have become old
  388. # [13:59] <kig> http://github.com/kig/canvas3d-tests + i guess i should put my current fork of the extension up somewhere
  389. # [14:00] <Philip`> I encountered one bug a year ago which I think was caused by calling getActiveUniform with invalid parameters, which raised a GL error, and the Mozilla code ignored the error and returned an uninitialised output variable, so maybe nobody's fixed that yet and it should be tested
  390. # [14:00] <kig> it's likely, yeah
  391. # [14:00] <Philip`> but I think I've currently stopped caring about canvas3d so I don't want to do any work on it now :-)
  392. # [14:00] <kig> none of the methods in the binding check for gl errors
  393. # [14:00] <kig> aight
  394. # [14:03] <kig> my plan for the rest of this spring is getting the gles20 canvas solid and writing an openal binding and making a website that only works if you have both
  395. # [14:03] <kig> then i have truly transcended to the realm of oh god why
  396. # [14:03] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  397. # [14:03] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  398. # [14:04] <Philip`> It'll be almost as useful as VRML!
  399. # [14:04] <Philip`> except with more hardware incompatibility issues
  400. # [14:09] <kig> i heard irc rumors mozilla js people are going to use boehm's incremental mark&sweep instead of MMgc
  401. # [14:09] <kig> either way, maybe the 100+ ms gc pauses will be history in the future
  402. # [14:12] <zcorpan> <img>, <input type=image>, <embed>, <object>, <video>... are there other ways to embed an image?
  403. # [14:13] <zcorpan> for which 'image-fit' is testable?
  404. # [14:13] * zcorpan notes that generated content is not since you can't actually select the replaced element
  405. # [14:14] <zcorpan> <svg>?
  406. # [14:15] <Philip`> <canvas/><script>drawImage(foo)</script> ?
  407. # [14:15] <zcorpan> maybe
  408. # [14:20] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-65-132-93.nyc.res.rr.com)
  409. # [14:26] * Parts: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-171-22.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving")
  410. # [14:27] <jgraham> http://www.marcozehe.de/2009/03/13/happy-birthday-world-wide-web/
  411. # [14:35] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-116.dynamic.amis.net)
  412. # [14:39] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  413. # [14:45] * zcorpan learns that svg 1.1 is more useful a reference than svg 1.2 for preserveAspectRatio
  414. # [14:46] <zcorpan> s/1.2/1.2 Tiny/
  415. # [14:46] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-89-133-232-199.catv.broadband.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
  416. # [14:51] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  417. # [14:52] <krijnh> hsivonen: thanks, I feel honored :)
  418. # [14:53] <annevk> it's in my top 5 as well :)
  419. # [14:54] <krijnh> Aaw :)
  420. # [14:55] <krijnh> It's not even in my top 5.. I must be doing something wrong
  421. # [14:55] <jgraham> krijnh: Nowhere near my top 5
  422. # [14:55] <jgraham> Actully I don't really know but I doubt it
  423. # [14:56] <jgraham> Since I just use the scrollback in irssi most of the time
  424. # [14:57] * zcorpan has http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg as a speed dial
  425. # [14:58] <krijnh> You're all getting payed to have that though, I'm having enough trouble already staying up to date on the mailinglists :)
  426. # [14:59] * Philip` has memorised how to spell krijnhoetmer
  427. # [14:59] <Philip`> Nobody pays me :-(
  428. # [14:59] <krijnh> Pronunciation as well?
  429. # [14:59] <krijnh> They don't?
  430. # [14:59] <krijnh> Wow
  431. # [14:59] <Philip`> (Well, not for anything web-related)
  432. # [14:59] <krijnh> Correction then, you must be doing something wrong!
  433. # [14:59] <Philip`> Pronunciation is trickier :-)
  434. # [15:01] * Philip` reads it as something like "kreen hote-mer"
  435. # [15:01] <krijnh> Cryin' hoodmer
  436. # [15:03] <Philip`> Ah
  437. # [15:03] <Philip`> Close enough ;-)
  438. # [15:03] <krijnh> Yeah, not :)
  439. # [15:04] <Philip`> If I ever need to refer to you during verbal communication, I can say "that IRC logs guy" and not worry about pronunciation
  440. # [15:04] <krijnh> Hehe
  441. # [15:08] <krijnh> That's actually how annevk calls me IRL
  442. # [15:13] * hsivonen didn't know the whattf repo had ViewVC associated with it: https://svn8.cvsdude.com/vvc/whattf/syntax?view=revision&revision=385
  443. # [15:17] <hsivonen> wow. Gecko has had... interesting... bugs related to document.write...
  444. # [15:24] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-116.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  449. # [15:43] * felix-da-catz_zz is now known as felix_da_catz
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  453. # [15:47] <Lachy> is anyone here aware of a simple to use templating system that I can use with my varius python scripts to generate things like those tables in the HTML 5 Reference?
  454. # [15:47] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  455. # [15:49] <Lachy> I want something that allows me to extract the data from various sources, such as the spec or other config files, and input that into a templating engine, which then populates the given template file with the data
  456. # [15:51] <Lachy> I found cheetah, which looks like it may work. Anyone had any experience with that? http://www.cheetahtemplate.org
  457. # [15:51] <beowulf> isn't there a python port of Template Toolkit?
  458. # [15:51] * beowulf goes to look
  459. # [15:52] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  460. # [15:52] <jgraham> Lachy: I use Genshi a lot
  461. # [15:52] <jgraham> Lachy: Mako is also supposed to be good
  462. # [15:53] <beowulf> http://template-toolkit.org/python/index.html
  463. # [15:53] <jgraham> Lachy: I think cheetah is a bit old
  464. # [15:53] <beowulf> TT is the best templating system I have used
  465. # [15:55] <jgraham> The big advantage of genshi is that it is (X|HT)ML centric so it gets things like escaping right be default
  466. # [15:55] <Lachy> ok, I'll investigate both of those.
  467. # [15:55] * Philip` has used TT in Perl, but doesn't really like it, mostly because it has weird syntax rules (like you can't use expressions in function arguments)
  468. # [15:56] <Philip`> Lachy: Can't you just use Python print statements?
  469. # [15:57] * Joins: mlpug_ (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  470. # [16:00] <Lachy> Philip`, that's what I did with the character entity reference generator, but found that to be less flexible, and it required doing things like print header-file, loop to print each line with the data, print footer-file, instead of just having one template file and declaring which section needs to be repeated.
  471. # [16:02] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-143-120.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  472. # [16:03] <Lachy> it also requires me to reinvent the wheel each time I want to do it with a new template and new set of data, as do my more recent approaches, and I want to avoid that
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  477. # [16:15] <jgraham> Lachy: BTW, if it makes a difference, I can offer help with Genshi, less so with anything else :)
  478. # [16:17] * Joins: davidb_ (n=davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  479. # [16:23] <Lachy> jgraham, ok, thanks
  480. # [16:23] <neuroo> davidb_: do you know any place where I can get the current coverage of html5 by firefox?
  481. # [16:26] <davidb_> neuroo: hi sorry 1 sec
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  485. # [16:35] <davidb> neuroo: i don't know, sorry. we don't seem to have a tracker bug for html5 coverage
  486. # [16:35] <neuroo> okay, I actually looked for it and didn't find anything :/
  487. # [16:35] <neuroo> any timeline plan or something for the support? would you be aware for that?
  488. # [16:36] <jcranmer> well, I suppose HTML5 needs to be complete before it can be fully implemented
  489. # [16:36] <neuroo> true, but well, they actaully started to support audio/video
  490. # [16:37] <jcranmer> someone's working on an HTML5 parser
  491. # [16:38] <annevk> there is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers
  492. # [16:39] <hsivonen> neuroo: it's hard to track coverage without a test suite
  493. # [16:39] <hsivonen> neuroo: but the theory is that the annotation boxes in the whatwg copy of the spec track coverage in Firefox and other browsers
  494. # [16:40] <hsivonen> neuroo: the practice may be different, of course...
  495. # [16:40] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-064a53f59a739601)
  496. # [16:40] <neuroo> okay, thanks :)
  497. # [16:42] <zcorpan> i think the annotation boxes should be reasonably accurate currently
  498. # [16:42] <Lachy> jgraham, if I'm understanding the documentation correctly, is the easiest way for me to proceed to create a template that contains stuff like <tr py:for="category in categories"><td>${category.tagname}</td><td>...</td></tr>
  499. # [16:43] <Lachy> ... then then create an array of dictionaries like this: categories = [{tagname: "html", flow: "yes", phrasing: "no", ...}, {...}]
  500. # [16:43] <Lachy> and then feed it all through Genshi?
  501. # [16:44] <jgraham> Lachy: That would work for sure
  502. # [16:44] <Lachy> cool, then this is perfect for my needs
  503. # [16:45] <hsivonen> should http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#apis-in-html-documents say Safari implements it?
  504. # [16:48] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  505. # [16:48] <Lachy> template is done http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/utils/categories-template.html
  506. # [16:48] <Lachy> now I just need to finish writing the script to create the dictionary
  507. # [16:49] * Lachy decides to ignore the fact that that file is XML containing namespaces served as text/html :-)
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  510. # [16:52] <Lachy> hmm, it would probably be useful if I wrote a single script that deals with all my templates so I can somehow pipe the output of other scripts that collect the data, into that one script that populates the template
  511. # [16:53] <Lachy> something like this: python categories.py | python template.py templatefile.html > output.html
  512. # [16:54] <Lachy> I wonder what the most appropriate format would be to serialise from categories.py (in this case) which can then be easily parsed by template.py
  513. # [16:59] <jgraham> Lachy: You could just use pickle or something
  514. # [16:59] <jgraham> If you don't care about human readable intermediate formats
  515. # [17:02] <Lachy> what's pickle?
  516. # [17:03] <Lachy> it definitely doesn't need to be a human readable intermediate format. It just needs to be something I can easily use for each of my scripts I have for extracting things from the spec and other sources
  517. # [17:03] <jgraham> Lachy: In this case it's a way of serializing python objects as strings
  518. # [17:04] <jgraham> Like JSON but different
  519. # [17:04] <Lachy> ok, that sounds like the most appropriate thing to use
  520. # [17:04] <jgraham> In that you can serialise more objects but it doesn't pretend to be readable
  521. # [17:05] <jgraham> just import pickle; it's in the stdlib
  522. # [17:06] <Lachy> ok, I found http://docs.python.org/library/pickle.html
  523. # [17:10] <Lachy> wow, that format really is unreadable by humans. I just did a simple test serialising an array of dictionaries
  524. # [17:13] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  525. # [17:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/?slow-browser#video redirects to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#video instead of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html?slow-browser#video
  526. # [17:21] <Philip`> It is possible that one could claim that's a problem with the redirection script I wrote and therefore should be considered my problem, but Hixie added the ?slow-browser feature so I will claim that it is his problem instead
  527. # [17:48] <Philip`> kig: For uniforms, I kind of like the idea of overloading setters on the shader object, so you can say "sp.diffuseColor = [1,0,1]" and it's all nice and Javascripty
  528. # [17:48] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  529. # [17:48] <Philip`> (and the implementation can use getActiveUniform to work out what types and coercions are required)
  530. # [17:49] <Philip`> kind of like wrapShaderProgram in http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/3d/x3d/gfx_glweb20.js
  531. # [17:50] <Philip`> but maybe that's just crazy :-)
  532. # [17:50] <kig> nnnwell, i'd leave that to javascript
  533. # [17:50] <kig> and just do as standards-compliant and straightforward binding as possible
  534. # [17:50] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  535. # [17:52] <Philip`> Hmm, I guess that's sensible
  536. # [17:54] <kig> of course there's a lot of weird cruft in gles, like glTexSubImage2D spec saying that the border parameter must be 0
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  538. # [17:56] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@194.65.73.224)
  539. # [17:56] <kig> but if you remove that, you turn s/gl/gl./ -port into s/glTexImage2D((stuff),(border)(,stuff))/gl.texImage2D(\1\3)/
  540. # [17:58] <Philip`> Then you've still got the cruft of talking about "2D" explicitly, when there's no 1D or 3D
  541. # [17:58] <kig> yeah
  542. # [18:00] * Philip` wondered a while ago whether it'd be sensible to adopt the kind of API that OpenGL 3.0 was going to switch to (before they decided that actually they didn't want to modernise the API at all)
  543. # [18:01] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  544. # [18:02] <Philip`> (I think that new API sort of sneaked out as http://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/EXT/direct_state_access.txt or something? I probably should have paid more attention when this was happening...)
  545. # [18:06] <kig> gles20 doesn't even have any stacks, so it's very stabby writing code for it
  546. # [18:07] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  547. # [18:07] <kig> 500 lines for a spinning lit cube D:
  548. # [18:09] <Philip`> Just the kind of thing we should be exposing to web authors who can't even understand the difference between HTML and XHTML
  549. # [18:10] <kig> what i might want to do is a GC-friendly matrix and vector classes, but uh, no idea what the JS call overheads are like (if your M*v takes 30 cycles, 100-cycle overhead for the C call ..is still going to be faster than plain js)
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  551. # [18:14] * gsnedders kinda tempted to do some work on PHP html5lib
  552. # [18:14] <gsnedders> But there again, that means bothering
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  557. # [18:47] <kig> Philip`: yeah, it is expert stuff, like writing a text editor with canvas
  558. # [18:47] * Joins: rubys1 (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  559. # [18:51] <Philip`> kig: The difference is that it's designed solely for experts and unusable to everyone else, unlike normal canvas which is designed for more normal people but can be twisted by experts into doing crazy things
  560. # [18:52] <kig> so it is a good logical continuation on that path
  561. # [18:53] <kig> designed for more expert people but can be twisted by programming demigods into doing utterly insane things
  562. # [18:54] <Philip`> The problem is that normal people will it anyway, and they'll make a horrible mess
  563. # [18:54] <Philip`> *will use it
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  565. # [18:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do some work on python html5lib instead
  566. # [18:55] <kig> i do see the problem, but i don't see what can be done about it
  567. # [18:55] <Philip`> When 2D-canvas has slightly complex features like getImageData not necessarily returning 1 pixel of data per canvas-pixel, people keep using it wrongly, which means browsers that try to do higher-quality canvases will start breaking, so it hurts everyone
  568. # [18:57] <kig> uh, there are browsers that do that?
  569. # [18:58] <Philip`> and with 3D-canvas people are going to write pages that only work on NVIDIA drivers on Windows and silently fail everywhere else, and it could be considered worse than if the feature didn't exist at all
  570. # [18:58] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  571. # [18:59] <Philip`> kig: I think WebKit does if you've set some OS UI scaling factor
  572. # [19:00] <kig> only work on Nvidia drivers, yes, that is a problem with the nvidia glsl allowing Cg-isms unless the shader has #version foo
  573. # [19:01] <kig> i guess there are other things as well, but that's the first example that sprung to mind
  574. # [19:03] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  575. # [19:06] <kig> i don't like pixels not being pixels. it's so "let's break every pixel-munging canvas script out there"
  576. # [19:08] <Philip`> Before getPixelData came along, nobody said that canvas was pixels
  577. # [19:08] <Philip`> It was just a vector-based immediate-mode API
  578. # [19:08] <Philip`> and implementations could do whatever high-resolution stuff or low-resolution-but-with-anti-aliasing stuff they fancied, to make it look good
  579. # [19:09] <kig> and then they put getImageData in, the knaves!
  580. # [19:10] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  581. # [19:10] <Philip`> I must admit it's quite useful functionality
  582. # [19:11] <Philip`> but it prevents the canvas-is-a-bunch-of-vectors and canvas-is-a-bunch-of-pixels people from coexisting peacefully
  583. # [19:11] <kig> i hope canvas.width and height at least return the correct pixel amount or that there's some way of getting the dimensions for getting the whole canvas contents
  584. # [19:12] <Philip`> canvas.width/height are the size in canvas coordinate units, which are not necessarily related to the number of device pixels in the backing buffer that the implementation uses
  585. # [19:12] <kig> var fac = getImageData(0,0,1,1).width
  586. # [19:13] <kig> oh but maybe it's fractional, var fac = getImageData(0,0,canvas.width,1).width/canvas.width
  587. # [19:13] <Philip`> There's no requirement for it to even be linear, I think
  588. # [19:14] <Philip`> You could have a higher pixel density in the left of the image
  589. # [19:14] <Philip`> perhaps because you know the user is looking at their screen from the side, and you don't need so many pixels in the distance
  590. # [19:14] <kig> :--------|
  591. # [19:14] <Philip`> Oh, actually, that's not true
  592. # [19:14] <Philip`> Oh, actually, I think it might be
  593. # [19:15] <Philip`> It's required that context.createImageData(w, h).width == context.getImageData(0, 0, w, h).width but maybe it could differ if you change the getImageData x
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  619. # [21:40] <jgraham> http://intertwingly.net/stories/2009/03/13/html5-evolution.html
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The end :)