/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Mar 15 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:19] * jgraham wishes he knew why there was still such a strong perception that HTML 5 has disenfranchised authors somehow
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  10. # [00:20] <jgraham> Because, you know, I actually went to conferences and spoke about HTML5 to authors and they, by and large, didn't sound disenfranchised
  11. # [00:22] <jgraham> So I don't know if I'm just talking to the wrng people or if the whole "problem" is something that has been invented by people thinking that things should be a certain way and then assuming that the disconnect between hypothesis and reality represents a problem
  12. # [00:22] <jgraham> Or both
  13. # [00:22] <jgraham> Or neither
  14. # [00:23] * Philip` wonders where that perception is being expressed
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  16. # [00:27] <jgraham> Philip`: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/03/13/HTML5-Evolution#c1237062155 suggests outreach to content creators is needed, which is what brought it to mind
  17. # [00:27] <jgraham> Anyway, bedtime :)
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  19. # [00:32] <annevk5> Same here, I visited a few companies in Japan and Portugal in the past few weeks and had no real negative comments. There were some security concerns with WebSockets and such, but nothing that suggested they didn't like the approach.
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  21. # [01:03] <karlcow> I met authors who enjoyed it and met authors who despised it.
  22. # [01:04] <karlcow> There are many types of people using the language, some of them will be only comfortable with the markup and don't know what a DOM is.
  23. # [01:05] <karlcow> so definitely not black and white
  24. # [01:13] <annevk5> I don't think anyone is sugesting that
  25. # [01:13] <annevk5> Just that anecdotically more people seem to be cool with it than not. See also e.g. twitter and blog posts around the Web
  26. # [01:16] <karlcow> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22html5+sucks%22
  27. # [01:16] <karlcow> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22html5+rocks%22
  28. # [01:16] <karlcow> but not sure it is very relevant ;)
  29. # [01:19] * svl is a web developer, and is not only firmly on the "cool with it" side of things, but also believes the same goes for every single other web developer he knows (and given the various organizations I'm part of and the meetings I attend, that's a sizeable group). And beyond the people involved enough to be part of all that, I suspect most simply don't think about html5 at all yet.
  30. # [01:20] <karlcow> I agree with svl specifically for the last sentence.
  31. # [01:20] * karlcow will ask monday in the office.
  32. # [01:20] <Philip`> Based on a large sampling of one person (outside the WHATWG community) who has expressed an opinion on HTML5, 100% of people like it
  33. # [01:20] <Philip`> mostly because the doctype is short
  34. # [01:20] <karlcow> that will be around 20 persons actually making Web sites in a commercial context
  35. # [01:21] <Philip`> but that's about the limit of my personal experience
  36. # [01:55] <Hixie> woah, my issues chart is saying i checked lots in in the past few weeks which is completely bogus
  37. # [01:56] <Hixie> wtf
  38. # [02:07] <Hixie> goddamnit
  39. # [02:07] <Hixie> i always get caught up on this "january is month zero" nonsense
  40. # [02:07] <Hixie> ok, chart fixed.
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  47. # [04:10] <rubys> jgraham: what I wrote was "It is less obvious that we have adequate representation from content creators."
  48. # [04:10] <rubys> jgraham: what you read "strong perception that HTML 5 has disenfranchised authors somehow"
  49. # [04:10] <rubys> how the @#$#&^ did THAT happen?
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  56. # [05:24] <sayrer> rubys, if you buy this: "Content creation should not be recondite. It should not be this bizarre arcana that only experts and gold-plated computer science gurus can do."
  57. # [05:25] <sayrer> how do you find people to participate in the working group?
  58. # [05:25] <sayrer> tough question, if you ask me
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  80. # [09:46] <jgraham> rubys: Because I was not just basing what I said on what you wrote. As I said, that merely brought it to mind.
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  94. # [12:01] * rubys looks up "recondite"
  95. # [12:03] <rubys> rsayre: I understand the statement by Brendan, but don't see the association.
  96. # [12:03] <rubys> jgraham: thanks for clearing that up
  97. # [12:05] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.com/m41bc51f9 — why does __copy__ create copies of the key values and not references to them>
  98. # [12:29] * Philip` notes that making a subclass of dict whose API is different in many ways is quite likely to be violating fundamental principles of OO design
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  107. # [14:07] <gsnedders> True, but being better would mean doing odd things in places.
  108. # [14:27] <Philip`> gsnedders: But being better would, by definition, be better
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  112. # [15:05] <bell007> hi
  113. # [15:05] <bell007> hi all
  114. # [15:06] <bell007> When I sanitize "<IMG SRC="HTTP://WWW.G.COM/png.png" ALT="g">", there
  115. # [15:06] <bell007> is only receive "<IMG ALT="g">", the string SRC="HTTP://WWW.G.COM/
  116. # [15:06] <bell007> png.png" lost!
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  121. # [15:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: What are the keys?
  122. # [15:24] <gsnedders> Oh, I found why it wasn't working, it doesn't matter.
  123. # [15:24] <gsnedders> (__setitem__ caused a copy to be created)
  124. # [15:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh and what Philip` said :)
  125. # [15:27] * Philip` blames jgraham for doing s/and/or/ when attempting to change line wrapping in html5lib
  126. # [15:28] * jgraham tries to look innocent
  127. # [15:28] <jgraham> DId we not have a unit test that covered it?
  128. # [15:28] <Philip`> jgraham: We had dozens
  129. # [15:29] <jgraham> And they failed? Wow I suck
  130. # [15:29] <Philip`> They did
  131. # [15:29] <Philip`> You said "there are some regressions in the liberal xml parser and the sanitizer that need to be fixed"
  132. # [15:29] <Philip`> so presumably you did check them :-)
  133. # [15:29] <jgraham> Oh, well I feel better about that then :)
  134. # [15:30] <jgraham> I have to learn that people are actually trying to use this stuff
  135. # [15:30] <Philip`> Breaking the sanitiser tests is probably not an excellent idea, even temporarily, when people seem to rely on trunk versions for security :-)
  136. # [15:30] <Philip`> One test still fails, but I don't quite know why
  137. # [15:31] <Philip`> (I think it passes in the Ruby version, though it's hard to tell because there's a load of bogus test failures from <a/> vs <a></a> serialisation)
  138. # [15:31] * jgraham winders if people are relying on the ruby version
  139. # [15:32] <jgraham> *wonders
  140. # [15:32] <Philip`> val_unescaped = CGI.unescapeHTML(attrs[attr].to_s).gsub(/`|[\000-\040\177\s]+|\302[\200-\240]/,'').downcase
  141. # [15:32] <Philip`> Is that doing a gsub on UTF-8 byte values?
  142. # [15:33] <Philip`> If so, what's the equivalent in a non-insane language like Python that understands Unicode?
  143. # [15:33] <jgraham> Thst doesn't look entirely implausible
  144. # [15:35] <Philip`> Hmm, look like the last bit is U+0080 to U+00A0
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  146. # [15:39] <Philip`> Oh, the Python one's already equivalent
  147. # [15:41] <Philip`> Oh, right, the difference is probably that the Python version correctly translates &#14; into U+FFFD, and the Ruby one doesn't
  148. # [15:41] <Philip`> so it's just a parser issue
  149. # [15:42] <Philip`> and the Ruby parser is already broken lots, so I don't care about it
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  151. # [15:42] <jgraham> So the test is wrong?
  152. # [15:44] <Philip`> jgraham: No
  153. # [15:45] <jgraham> Oh. So we still fail a test but we just don't know why?
  154. # [15:45] <Philip`> Oh, wait
  155. # [15:45] <Philip`> Yes it is wrong
  156. # [15:45] <Philip`> The test is for <img src=" &#14; javascript:alert('XSS');" />
  157. # [15:46] <Philip`> which runs the script in IE
  158. # [15:46] <Philip`> and the test case says it should become <img/>, but Python html5lib says u'<img src=" \ufffd javascript:alert(\'XSS\');"/>'
  159. # [15:47] <Philip`> which is okay because the U+FFFD results in the script not running
  160. # [15:48] <Philip`> but I don't know if it's dodgy to rely on that output being safe
  161. # [15:49] <jgraham> It seems like it would be nicer to pass the test
  162. # [15:49] * jgraham doesn't really like the sanitizer code because it relies so heavilly on regexps for attribute sanitisation
  163. # [15:50] <Philip`> It relies on regexp blacklisting of attribute values, in particular
  164. # [15:50] <jgraham> Can we do it better?
  165. # [15:51] <Philip`> Use whitelisting :-)
  166. # [15:51] <jgraham> Well it doesn't seem reasonable to whitelist all possible attribute values
  167. # [15:51] <Philip`> It's reasonable to whitelist values that are valid URIs
  168. # [15:52] <jgraham> Yes, that would be better
  169. # [15:52] <Philip`> (and invalid URIs can be escape into valid URIs first)
  170. # [15:53] <Philip`> Someone should write an HTML insanitiser that makes your markup crazier
  171. # [15:54] * Philip` doesn't care enough about this to work out what to do, so he'll leave it with the failing test
  172. # [15:58] <Philip`> (...since it seems to be a 'safe' failure, in terms of not introducing XSS vulnerabilities)
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  178. # [16:27] <jgraham> http://www.iamcal.com/understanding-bidirectional-text/ is interesting. I guess the HTML sanitizer should do something about mismatched explicit override markers
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  180. # [16:30] <Philip`> jgraham: Their effects seem to be scoped by elements like <div>, so as long as you've got some block markup around any user-supplied content then it shouldn't be a problem
  181. # [16:32] <Philip`> where "problem" means "denial of service attack, via user-generated content making significant parts of your page unreadable"
  182. # [16:32] <Philip`> (Localised nonsense isn't a problem that the sanitiser should be dealing with, because people can (and do) write nonsense just with plain ASCII anyway)
  183. # [16:34] <jgraham> Philip`: Ah, did the article say about the <div> thing or did you just test that?
  184. # [16:35] <Philip`> (By "block markup", I mean "markup which gets rendered with display:block")
  185. # [16:35] <Philip`> jgraham: I just tested it
  186. # [16:35] <Philip`> very briefly and incomprehensively
  187. # [16:36] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%AE
  188. # [16:36] <jgraham> The example in the article still makes some sense; you might not have user entered content in a <div>
  189. # [16:36] <Philip`> "Your search - .stnemucod yna hctam ton did -"
  190. # [16:36] <jgraham> Yeah so I see :)
  191. # [16:36] <Philip`> but then the rest of the page is fine
  192. # [16:37] <Philip`> (in the browsers I've tried)
  193. # [16:37] <jgraham> So it would still make sense to try and balance that out
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  195. # [16:39] <Philip`> Of course I could still write http://www.google.com/search?q=.stnemucod+yna+htcam+ton+did to get very similar output
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  197. # [16:41] <jgraham> You can imagine situations where content from several users is put together in a single block-level element so one user can confuse everyone else
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  199. # [16:42] <jgraham> I agree that it doesn't seem like a very serious issue
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  228. # [18:40] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.html5.org/cite/
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  232. # [18:51] <Lachy> gsnedders, when I submit a file to that, I get an internal server error
  233. # [18:51] <Lachy> I tried submitting the html5 reference source
  234. # [18:51] <gsnedders> Awesome.
  235. # [18:51] <gsnedders> suexec policy violation: see suexec log for more details
  236. # [18:52] <Lachy> gsnedders, is that supposed to be running anolis with support for biblio, and with support for submitting an auxilliary biblio file?
  237. # [18:52] <gsnedders> No, it just does biblio
  238. # [18:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: "bilbiography"?
  239. # [18:53] <gsnedders> Yes, I can't spell.
  240. # [18:53] * Philip` suggests a spell chequer
  241. # [18:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, so when I submit one of my specs, does it just append the reference section to the end, without doing any other processing like anolis does?
  242. # [18:53] <gsnedders> Yeah
  243. # [18:54] <Lachy> so should I go Overview.src.html -> anolis -> Overview.html -> then biblio, to get the final copy of my spec?
  244. # [18:54] <gsnedders> Yeah
  245. # [18:54] <Lachy> ok
  246. # [18:54] <gsnedders> biblio will be merged into Anolis
  247. # [18:55] <Lachy> good
  248. # [18:55] <gsnedders> It's just I really did it for my computing project for school disguised as a separate project
  249. # [18:55] <Lachy> what file format does the extra biblio database field support?
  250. # [18:55] <gsnedders> refer
  251. # [18:55] <Lachy> ok
  252. # [18:56] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  253. # [18:57] <Lachy> gsnedders, ping me when you get the internal server error resolved
  254. # [18:59] * gsnedders gets a different error
  255. # [19:04] <Lachy> i now get an ImportError
  256. # [19:08] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  257. # [19:16] * gsnedders sighs, having compiled libxml2 and libxslt
  258. # [19:18] <gsnedders> hmm, so having managed to build lxml, from lxml import html still fails
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  262. # [19:41] <gsnedders> Lachy: ping
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  271. # [20:07] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
  272. # [20:08] * gsnedders posts <http://gsnedders.com/installing-lxml-on-dreamhost>
  273. # [20:13] <Lachy> gsnedders, I just tried it with Selectors API. Your bibliographic database seems to be using different identefiers for the references from what Bert's does
  274. # [20:14] <Lachy> e.g. [{!SELECT] is CSS3 selectors in Bert's, but not in yours
  275. # [20:15] <Lachy> and [[!WEBIDL]] doesn't seem to work. I'm guessing that means yours in case sensitive, since "WebIDL" is listed in yours
  276. # [20:15] <Lachy> same issue with Dom-Level-3-Core
  277. # [20:18] <Lachy> gsnedders, other than those relatively minor issues, since I can easily update the references in my spec, the system seems to work fairly well
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  284. # [21:22] <Hixie> re the sanitiser, you should always use only whitelisting
  285. # [21:23] <Hixie> and for every attribute value
  286. # [21:23] <Hixie> including e.g. src="", style="", etc
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  296. # [22:17] <gsnedders> Lachy: Indeed, I know that.
  297. # [22:17] <gsnedders> Lachy: I can't legitimately copy Bert's database, because I have no access to it, and myself, annevk5, and marcos all disagree with how it does stuff
  298. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: But you can download Bert's database and use it yourself
  299. # [22:18] <gsnedders> It's linked to from the docs
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  303. # [22:34] <Hixie> 56%...
  304. # [22:36] * sid0 is now known as chroot_jail_sid0
  305. # [22:36] * gsnedders wonders when Hixie will finish this
  306. # [22:37] <gsnedders> In time for his birthday?
  307. # [22:38] * chroot_jail_sid0 is now known as sid0
  308. # [22:39] <Philip`> Which of his birthdays?
  309. # [22:39] * Quits: zdobersek2 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-174.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  310. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: 27th December
  311. # [22:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: There's an infinite number of 27ths of December, so that doesn't narrow it down much
  312. # [22:41] <gsnedders> 27th December 2009 AD
  313. # [22:43] <Hixie> 60%
  314. # [22:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: Which calendar system?
  315. # [22:43] * gsnedders was waiting for that question
  316. # [22:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: the 29th December 2009 AD is only his birthday in one calendar system
  317. # [22:44] <gsnedders> (Thus that one)
  318. # [22:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not given a sufficiently large universe
  319. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Oh shut up.
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  322. # [22:57] <jgraham> RFC 3986 tlks about certian URI forms being "less likely" which seems like a fairly pointless distincion to make since it is essential to treat them uniformly anyway
  323. # [22:57] <jgraham> I guess it should say "be sure to test wih the following special cases" or something
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  329. # [23:39] <Hixie> 62%
  330. # [23:41] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@216.132.92.66)
  331. # [23:42] <annevk5> why is the datagrid section greyed out?
  332. # [23:43] <annevk5> I see, <div class=bad> :)
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  335. # Session Close: Mon Mar 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)