/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-16 / end

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  26. # [02:55] <Hixie> Lachy: yt?
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  43. # [06:24] <Hixie> i wonder what to do about the definition of "browsing context"
  44. # [06:24] <Hixie> (in the content of an author version of the spec)
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  47. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: define by example?
  48. # [06:58] <Hixie> well i was wondering whether i need a definition at all
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  50. # [06:58] <Hixie> maybe i can just refer to frames and windows in the author text and leave all the complexities out
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  52. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: It does seem like there needs to be some definition or explanation of that term in the author view
  53. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> and seems necessary to leave out the complexities because otherwise you'd get into also needing to define a lot of other terms too
  54. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> like pulling a thread
  55. # [07:01] <Hixie> yeah
  56. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> but I would think you'd not be able to get away with just referring to frames and windows and not to "browsing context" at all
  57. # [07:03] <Hixie> oh well, i'll figure something out
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  70. # [09:27] <hsivonen> yay! the whatwg archives are back!
  71. # [09:48] <Lachy> Hixie, I'm here now
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  74. # [09:53] <zcorpan> http://spacergif.mobi/
  75. # [09:54] <zcorpan> (for now, it just returns a spacer gif)
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  80. # [10:09] <Lachy> Hixie, Requiem 1.8.7 is out now. The most recent changes provide support for iTunes 8.1, speed improvements and fixes for >2GB files
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  100. # [12:42] <annevk5> http://twitter.com/jsdc/statuses/1335371346 we do?
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  103. # [12:46] <Lachy> annevk5, no, we don't. I wonder where that misconception came from
  104. # [12:48] <annevk5> http://spacergif.mobi/ most excellent :)
  105. # [12:48] <Lachy> hmm, that no longer returns a spacer gif for me. All I get is an empty directory listing
  106. # [12:50] <zcorpan> fixed
  107. # [12:52] <Lachy> zcorpan, is that your domain?
  108. # [12:52] <zcorpan> yeah
  109. # [12:52] <Lachy> oh. Why did you get that?
  110. # [12:52] <Lachy> are you going to use it for anything but a spacer gif?
  111. # [12:52] <zcorpan> yeah i'll probably have a blog there
  112. # [12:52] <Lachy> ok
  113. # [12:53] * Lachy looks forward to reading about all the different ways of creating and using spacer gifs on a mobile
  114. # [12:54] <zcorpan> now i wonder two things... how do i get genshi installed there and has someone written a blog using genshi already?
  115. # [12:54] * jgraham hopes that zcorpan will blog in the style of a teenage girl
  116. # [12:55] <zcorpan> jgraham: sorry to disappoint you
  117. # [12:55] <jgraham> zcorpan: http://www.cmlenz.net/archives/2008/08/view-source#more
  118. # [12:55] <jgraham> Is the only one I can think of
  119. # [12:56] <zcorpan> jgraham: thanks
  120. # [12:57] <jgraham> zcorpan: Ah, shame. It could have been all like, well I got us this morning right? and there was all this email about XML Namespaces, y'know so I was just like you guys are so lame if you don't know what a script inserted xmlns decleration does and I laughed so hard I almost split my frosties on the cat
  121. # [12:58] <zcorpan> lol
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  123. # [12:59] <jgraham> zcorpan: I was going to use it but didn't get around to installing couchdb. But I think I might have another go at some point. SO let me know if you use it and if you have any issues
  124. # [13:00] <zcorpan> ok
  125. # [13:00] <annevk5> jgraham, :D you should write a blog
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  128. # [13:20] * jgraham had forgotten that the aria taskforce plans to do HTML element -> accessibility api mappings
  129. # [13:28] <takkaria> wtf are people spending so much time discussing alternative calendars?
  130. # [13:28] <takkaria> am I missing something obvious?
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  132. # [13:30] <annevk5> the fun in it
  133. # [13:30] <annevk5> though thank god I'm not a calendar geek and not wasting my time on this one :)
  134. # [13:32] <zcorpan> http://html5gallery.com/
  135. # [13:34] <rubys> One of these days, I really need to complete this: http://rails.intertwingly.net/blog/
  136. # [13:35] <rubys> (and convert planet intertwingly to use html5 features)
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  138. # [13:42] <Lachy> that html5gallery site doesn't actually include any links or URLs for the sites it lists
  139. # [13:47] <beowulf> zcorpan: feel free to add http://havetheygoneawayyet.com/ :)
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  157. # [15:28] <Lachy> Hixie, dfn.js is missing from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dfn.js but the script on the page still attempts to load it from there.
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  165. # [16:06] <annevk5> http://twitter.com/diveintomark/status/1336512675
  166. # [16:12] <hsivonen> the <time> email just keeps coming...
  167. # [16:13] <Lachy> yeah, it's becomming a permathread
  168. # [16:14] * karlcow yawns
  169. # [16:15] <Lachy> I wonder who that tweet from diveintomark is responding to
  170. # [16:15] <Lachy> LOL http://twitter.com/diveintomark/status/1329398270
  171. # [16:17] * karlcow yawns bis
  172. # [16:17] <jgraham> Is any of the time email intersting? I keep dipping in and out and there seems to be a lot of discussion about year 0 and alternate calendar systems
  173. # [16:18] * jgraham wonders how one can yawn bis. Or hat bis means. I thought they were some sort of pop band...
  174. # [16:18] <jgraham> s/hat/what/
  175. # [16:18] <annevk5> bis can also mean second or some such
  176. # [16:18] <annevk5> e.g. house number 12 and 12bis
  177. # [16:19] <annevk5> numbers* meh
  178. # [16:21] <Lachy> jgraham, I don't think so. It's all repeating the same thing over and over again
  179. # [16:21] <jgraham> It also stands for Bandalag íslenskra skáta, the icelandic boy scouts. But I doubt karlcow yawned so wide he swallowed a whole nation's scouts by mistake
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  181. # [16:23] <Lachy> it gets a little weird when you start to realise the contradictory arguments that seem to be getting put forth, like wanting to allow negative years, a year 0000, and have the year -0001 mean 1BCE instead of 2BCE
  182. # [16:23] <jgraham> It's only confusing if the contradictory positions are all taken by a single person at a single time
  183. # [16:24] <Lachy> there was one email in which that seemed to be the case
  184. # [16:24] * Lachy looks it up
  185. # [16:24] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0341.html
  186. # [16:25] <Philip`> What if I want to represent dates in Flatland's calendar system, where there is a year 0?
  187. # [16:26] <Lachy> "I think [year 0000] should be allowed. Historians deny the existence of year 0, but astronomers use it... ISO 8601:2000 and above suggest that year 0000 be used and be considered year 1 BC, and then -0001 is 2 BC, etc. Most, I believe, will want year -0004 = 4BC (and this is what I'd suggest)."
  188. # [16:27] <jgraham> Funness
  189. # [16:28] <Lachy> Philip`, Flatland usually refers to an imaginary universe in which there are only 2 spatial dimensions. I'm not sure what that universe has to do with a year 0
  190. # [16:28] <karlcow> yep bis aka a second time to which people could have replied "Bis repetita non placent"
  191. # [16:29] <Lachy> karlcow, google translate says that translates to "Repeat not place". What on earth does that mean?
  192. # [16:30] <jgraham> Lachy: But imagine I am writing a book about flatland and I want to say it was <time datetime=00-00-00>the first day</time>..."
  193. # [16:31] <karlcow> http://www.google.com/search?q="Bis+repetita+non+placent"
  194. # [16:31] <Philip`> A Square says, "It was the last day of the 1999th year of our era. The pattering of the rain had long ago announced nightfall; and I was sitting in the company of my wife, musing on the events of the past and the prospects of the coming year, the coming century, the coming Millennium."
  195. # [16:32] <Philip`> and since the new millennium starts on the year 2000, their calendar system must have started with the year 0
  196. # [16:33] <jgraham> karlcow: Limiting communications to latin should at least cut down on the noise in the channel
  197. # [16:33] <karlcow> http://yauba.com/?q=%22Bis+repetita+non+placent%22 or by the new one ;)
  198. # [16:33] <Philip`> "Acting, as was their wont, in strict accordance with precedent, the highest Circles of the realm were meeting in solemn conclave, as they had met on the first hour of the first day of the year 1000, and also on the first hour of the first day of the year 0."
  199. # [16:33] <karlcow> jgraham: indeed :)
  200. # [16:33] <Philip`> Ah, there's an explicit year 0
  201. # [16:34] <Lachy> Philip`, what are you quoting from?
  202. # [16:34] <Philip`> Lachy: Flatland
  203. # [16:35] <karlcow> # Bis repetita non placent -- "Repetitions are not well-received." (Horace, Ars Poetica 365)
  204. # [16:35] <Philip`> (http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~banchoff/Flatland/ etc, though that's not a nicely formatted version)
  205. # [16:35] <Lachy> I didn't know that was a book
  206. # [16:36] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland
  207. # [16:36] <karlcow> Lachy: be happy, being young means that there is a lot of classics to discover.
  208. # [16:36] <Lachy> I'd only ever heard of the place being described in quantum physics documentaries as a way of explaining the concept of 11 demensions to average people.
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  210. # [16:37] * Philip` wonders how Lachy could have gone through life without knowing of the Flatland book
  211. # [16:37] <Lachy> I don't read much
  212. # [16:39] <Lachy> anyway, I think marking up the calendar systems of fictional universes can be considered an edge case that we don't need to support in HTML5
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  214. # [16:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: next you are going to say we don't need Klingon in Unicode!
  215. # [16:41] <Philip`> It's kind of a weird book, since it's half a discussion of dimensional geometry and half a social commentary on Victorian life
  216. # [16:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: But Unicode is all about edge cases
  217. # [16:43] <Lachy> hsivonen, no, that's a different issue, because writing about fictional universes with different calendar systems doesn't gain anything by having explicit <time> element support, nor lose anything by not having it.
  218. # [16:45] <Lachy> however, it is questionable whether Klingon should be added to Unicode or not. There are several fictional writing systems that I can think of which are not supported in Unicode, such as those from the Lord of the Rings, or the Ancients' alphabet from Stargate
  219. # [16:46] <jgraham> Kligon was rejected from unicode
  220. # [16:46] <jgraham> *Klingon
  221. # [16:47] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.65)
  222. # [16:48] <Philip`> There are practical reasons to include artificial languages in Unicode - people want to use normal software (text editors, copy-and-paste, TTF fonts, HTML, etc) to manipulate text in those languages, and that software is all designed around being able to represent any text using Unicode
  223. # [16:49] * hsivonen proceeds to remove table tainting from the V.nu parser
  224. # [16:49] <Philip`> (though Private Use Areas are probably a sufficient level of inclusion)
  225. # [16:52] <Lachy> for such characters to be useful for such purposes, the code points used within the Private Use Areas would need to have some level of agreement between the applications involved
  226. # [16:53] <Lachy> at the very least, font vendors making different fonts for those characters would need to agree on the code points
  227. # [16:56] <Philip`> Indeed, so you have some simple low-cost external registry to assign character ranges to anyone who wants them
  228. # [16:58] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  229. # [16:58] <hsivonen> is it OK if I update html5lib tests to the new AAA tomorrow? what about getting rid of taint and doing foster-parenting the WebKit way?
  230. # [17:01] <hsivonen> I should also update the tests to deal with the new frameset-ok stuff
  231. # [17:02] <hsivonen> good thing I didn't change the tests for spec rev 2730
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  237. # [17:11] <gsnedders> annevk5: ping
  238. # [17:11] <annevk5> pang
  239. # [17:11] <gsnedders> annevk5: What's the state of setting Authorization via XHR?
  240. # [17:12] <annevk5> forbidden I think
  241. # [17:12] <gsnedders> annevk5: I found an old email from 10 months ago saying you'd disallowed it, but it isn't in the latest TR
  242. # [17:12] <gsnedders> Actually, TR version is too old
  243. # [17:12] <annevk5> maybe because TR is from more than 10 months ago?
  244. # [17:14] * gsnedders is speaking to people about the possibility of using it for OAuth, which needs Authorization
  245. # [17:17] <annevk5> per XHR Authorization is UA controlled
  246. # [17:18] <annevk5> even though we might be able to change that for same-origin requests it would not be possible for cross-origin so we might as well keep them in sync
  247. # [17:21] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
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  251. # [17:39] <annevk5> does anyone know if SWSX or whatever it's called has live transcripts of sessions?
  252. # [17:39] <annevk5> e.g. the Browser War Panel might be fun to follow
  253. # [17:42] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.51)
  254. # [17:46] * beowulf wonders if browsers will be put in harms way during this panel
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  275. # [18:48] <Lachy> "... Rob [Burns] really has a lot to say and I'm looking forward to read more of his ideas and opinions" -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0346.html
  276. # [18:49] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  277. # [18:53] * Philip` agrees with half of that sentence
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  290. # [19:54] <sayrer> jgraham, Philip, mozilla implementors have brought up the fact that HTML5 doesn't define the SQL syntax
  291. # [19:54] <sayrer> rubys, my use of brendan's quote was meant to be considered in relation to your desire to bring in more "content creators"
  292. # [19:55] <annevk5> yeah, SQL syntax is an issue
  293. # [19:55] <sayrer> I am not sure what you meant by that. People from big websites? They always have lots of feature requests
  294. # [19:56] <sayrer> annevk5, yes it fails a number of the design principles as currently specified
  295. # [19:57] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  296. # [19:58] <annevk5> and basic LC exit criteria
  297. # [19:58] <annevk5> I don't think anyone is contesting that :)
  298. # [19:59] <Hixie> indeed not
  299. # [19:59] <sayrer> I am actually kinda bummed about that
  300. # [20:00] <sayrer> what a pain, and everyone is using sqlite anyway
  301. # [20:00] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  302. # [20:00] <annevk5> afaik it was announced when we added this feature that speccing the dialect would be done once we had some impl experience
  303. # [20:01] <sayrer> that is sort of like specifying a barn door after the horse has escaped
  304. # [20:01] <sayrer> but oh well
  305. # [20:02] <sayrer> I was also wondering what this big effort Hixie keeps giving percentage updates on is
  306. # [20:03] <sayrer> some sort of automated spec split?
  307. # [20:03] <Hixie> going through marking up all the non-author stuff so it can be hidden by a style sheet
  308. # [20:03] <Hixie> if you load the spec in firefox switch to one of the other stylesheets to see the effect
  309. # [20:03] <Hixie> re sql, i think it would have been a mistake to spec the language before having impl experience
  310. # [20:03] <sayrer> so you get something akin to Mike Smith's doc by CSS switching?
  311. # [20:04] <Hixie> looks more like a cut-down version of the html5 spec, but sort of, yes
  312. # [20:04] <sayrer> are there any compatible HTML5 SQL impls?
  313. # [20:04] <sayrer> I thought Gears didn't match WebKit
  314. # [20:04] <sayrer> does Opera match WebKit?
  315. # [20:05] <annevk5> we haven't implemented the database API yet
  316. # [20:05] <sayrer> I guess the Gears one was never claimed to be compatible
  317. # [20:05] <annevk5> though when we will I expect us to use SQLite as well
  318. # [20:05] <Hixie> the gears one and the webkit one have differences, but are more similar than different
  319. # [20:05] <Hixie> much like implementations of everything else :-)
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  331. # [20:33] <Lachy> hey Hixie, you pinged me last night?
  332. # [20:33] <Hixie> was going to ask you about requiem
  333. # [20:34] <Lachy> ok
  334. # [20:34] <Lachy> I sent you the latest version
  335. # [20:34] <Hixie> sweet
  336. # [20:34] <Hixie> thanks dude
  337. # [20:35] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-de33ecb03c236a02) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  338. # [20:42] * Hixie discovers that the split-window concept breaks the multiple views concept
  339. # [20:42] <Hixie> what should UIEvent.view return?
  340. # [20:42] <Hixie> shepazu: this may affect DOM3 Events
  341. # [20:45] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  344. # [20:58] <annevk5> we could of course do away with multiple views and have a concept of primary view which is the one exposed to scripts...
  345. # [21:00] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  346. # [21:15] * Joins: atw (n=atwilson@74.125.59.1)
  347. # [21:15] * virtuelv innocently wonders what split-window concept is
  348. # [21:17] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  349. # [21:17] <virtuelv> (In other words, where do I look for a description?)
  350. # [21:21] <gsnedders> virtuelv: /dev/null
  351. # [21:21] * gsnedders ducks
  352. # [21:21] <virtuelv> :P
  353. # [21:22] <gsnedders> /dev/random should have it somewhere, actually
  354. # [21:22] <virtuelv> gsnedders: generally, ducking is not adviced
  355. # [21:22] <jcranmer> /dev/urandom is faster
  356. # [21:22] <jcranmer> now, can someone get this purr-bucket off my lap?
  357. # [21:23] <virtuelv> gsnedders: if it's a real-world fight, that is, because it'll end with your opponent kicking your face instead of your chest or nuts)
  358. # [21:23] <gsnedders> See, this is why I don't have a face.
  359. # [21:23] * gsnedders takes the purr-bucket and gives it to Hixie
  360. # [21:24] <annevk5> virtuelv, HTML5 defines it
  361. # [21:24] <annevk5> virtuelv, look for e.g. WindowProxy
  362. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Silly people giving useful answers…
  363. # [21:25] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  364. # [21:25] <virtuelv> "As mentioned earlier, each browsing context has a WindowProxy object. This object is unusual in that it must proxy all operations to the Window object of the browsing context's active document. It is thus indistinguishable from that Window object in every way, except that it is not equal to it."
  365. # [21:27] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160va8b.cable.mindspring.com)
  366. # [21:30] <gsnedders> awww… there's no such thing as \subsubsubsection
  367. # [21:31] <atw> It looks like the webworker spec implies that MessagePorts implement EventTarget (so you can call addEventListener() on them) but I don't actually see that explicitly stated anywhere. I'm curious, because setting the onmessage attribute effectively calls start() on the port, which perhaps implies that calling addEventListener() does too?
  368. # [21:31] <virtuelv> reading on from there. Why is Window exposing browser chrome constructs, such as the location bar
  369. # [21:31] <virtuelv> knowing that there is no location bar only lets me create more convincing phishing UI
  370. # [21:32] <virtuelv> (Besides, there are contexts wherein application UI constructs are completely irrelevant
  371. # [21:32] <virtuelv> mobile, widgets and embedded cases
  372. # [21:33] <sayrer> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/03/16/Yahoo-and-HTML-Rip-Mix-Burn
  373. # [21:33] <virtuelv> chiefly usable in the XUL case, no?
  374. # [21:34] <virtuelv> in which case I wonder: Why is it in HTML5?
  375. # [21:35] <annevk5> atw, "Objects implementing the MessagePort interface must also implement the EventTarget interface."
  376. # [21:35] <annevk5> atw, -- http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#messageport
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  380. # [21:42] * jwalden_ is now known as jwalden
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  383. # [21:48] <atw> anne - sigh, there it is right under the interface description. I must be blind.
  384. # [21:48] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-132.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  385. # [21:49] <atw> Is the implication that adding an event listener for (say) the "message" event is equivalent to setting an onmessage() handler (meaning it triggers side effects like starting the message port)?
  386. # [21:49] <annevk5> atw, long term it should probably be part of the interface, but Web IDL isn't quite there yet
  387. # [21:49] <Hixie> atw: no
  388. # [21:49] <Hixie> atw: there's no implication
  389. # [21:49] <Hixie> atw: the spec says exactly what it means and no less :-)
  390. # [21:50] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-171-22.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  391. # [21:50] * annevk5 wonders why there's magic for onmessage
  392. # [21:51] <Hixie> so that you don't have to call .start() in the simple case
  393. # [21:51] <roc> does anyone know what Crockford wants to do in his "HTML 4.2", in concrete terms?
  394. # [21:51] <atw> Yeah, it does seem kind of magical for onmessage() to have side effects but nothing else. I'm playing with the WebKit implementation now to see if they've implemented that side effect, as I'm not getting it to work.
  395. # [21:51] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  396. # [21:52] <Hixie> roc: http://www.crockford.com/html/
  397. # [21:52] <sayrer> roc, I think he mainly wants something similar to seamless iframes, not many other new features, and possibly some breaking changes
  398. # [21:52] <Hixie> roc: q.v. also http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/02/21/the-bolero-of-troll
  399. # [21:53] <atw> Hixie: got it. We can argue why addEventListener() isn't part of the simple case, but the motivation for the side-effect seems clear.
  400. # [21:53] <Hixie> atw: well you're only going to use aEL() if you're hooking multiple listeners up
  401. # [21:53] <Hixie> atw: in which case you might be doing asynchronously
  402. # [21:53] <Hixie> atw: so we don't want to start the message queue in that case
  403. # [21:53] <Hixie> atw: or you might miss messages
  404. # [21:54] <roc> ah OK, so he wants a completely different language with a version switch
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  406. # [21:54] <sayrer> I dunno, I think his experience with ES3.1 will make it less completely new
  407. # [21:55] <roc> are we sure that's still his plan? that page is quite old
  408. # [21:55] <sayrer> yeah, my point
  409. # [21:55] <roc> ok
  410. # [21:55] <Hixie> roc: no idea
  411. # [21:55] <sayrer> oh, he'll want postMessage too
  412. # [21:58] <atw2> hixie: thx, makes sense
  413. # [22:01] <Hixie> roc: if he has other concrete ideas, he hasn't said them
  414. # [22:02] <Hixie> I wish he would
  415. # [22:07] <sayrer> Hixie, I've seen videos where he touches on it
  416. # [22:08] <sayrer> and I expect he'll raise it at the ECMA/W3C joint meeting later this year
  417. # [22:08] <Hixie> would be nice if he actually told us directly
  418. # [22:08] <sayrer> that is the entire purpose of the co-location, afaik
  419. # [22:09] <Hixie> are the numerous mailing lists and irc channels not open enough for him?
  420. # [22:09] <annevk5> he's the entire reason for co-location? wow
  421. # [22:09] <sayrer> he asked for it, iirc
  422. # [22:09] <sayrer> the ECMA committee is only 12 people in a room usually, and 4 of them seem to never come back
  423. # [22:10] <annevk5> true
  424. # [22:11] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@66.194.95.217)
  425. # [22:11] <Hixie> oh maybe the html5 work is in fact _too_ open for him
  426. # [22:12] * Quits: atw (n=atwilson@74.125.59.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  427. # [22:13] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  428. # [22:15] <sayrer> Hixie, well, in my experience he isn't too interested in open goal setting, just open bug fixes
  429. # [22:16] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1242458802.dsl.bell.ca)
  430. # [22:17] <Hixie> sayrer: well he's not reported any bugs in our numerous open bug reporting mechanisms either
  431. # [22:17] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-171-22.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  432. # [22:18] <sayrer> Hixie, I didn't mean in that direction
  433. # [22:18] <sayrer> you fix his bugs, see :)
  434. # [22:19] <Hixie> while it does look like one day i might end up fixing the mess he made with JSON, i'm assuming that's not what you meant :-)
  435. # [22:19] <gsnedders> But JSON is pefect!
  436. # [22:19] * jgraham doesn't quite understand why his opinion has such disproportionate weight
  437. # [22:19] <jgraham> Or at least why people act as if it did
  438. # [22:20] <Hixie> 64%!
  439. # [22:20] <Hixie> jgraham: dunno, but if you find out please let me know, it'd be a nice trick to reproduce!
  440. # [22:21] * annevk5 finds an email in the <time> thread where the three people still debating have declared agreement
  441. # [22:22] <Hixie> speaking of the <time> thread
  442. # [22:22] <sayrer> Hixie, what do you want to change?
  443. # [22:22] <sayrer> about JSON, I mean
  444. # [22:22] <Hixie> is there an e-mail somewhere in that beast that describes use cases?
  445. # [22:22] <Hixie> sayrer: error handling, adding comments, adding NaN and Infinity
  446. # [22:23] <sayrer> error handling, hmm
  447. # [22:23] <sayrer> do you want to add error handling to every format?
  448. # [22:23] <Hixie> me personally? no
  449. # [22:24] <sayrer> do you want error handling added?
  450. # [22:24] <Hixie> formats that expect to be interoperably implemented amongst a wide number of UAs and used amongst a very wide array of producers and consumers all have error handling rules, whether they are de-facto or de-jure
  451. # [22:25] <Hixie> by having de-jure rules (i.e. by speccing them) is a huge help in getting interoperability sooner. it doesn't matter whether those rules are draconian like XML, or ignore-unknown like CSS, or crazy-complicated like HTML, or whatever.
  452. # [22:25] <Hixie> s/by//
  453. # [22:26] <sayrer> JSON in ES3.1 has draconian rules, then
  454. # [22:26] <Hixie> excellent
  455. # [22:26] <sayrer> anything that doesn't match the grammar is supposed to raise a syntax error
  456. # [22:26] <sayrer> we'll see how long that lasts
  457. # [22:26] <gsnedders> But that doesn't happen now.
  458. # [22:27] <Hixie> does JSON in ES3.1 replace the json.org JSON?
  459. # [22:27] <sayrer> the json.org JSON keeps changing to match ES3.1
  460. # [22:27] <sayrer> ES3.1 allows more than the RFC does
  461. # [22:27] <roc> there's the problem that the market rewards violations of draconian-ness, but we can try to hold the line
  462. # [22:28] <Dashiva> Is there still that silly duality of / being allowed both as / and as \/?
  463. # [22:29] <sayrer> I asked him why Infinity and NaN weren't allowed
  464. # [22:29] <sayrer> he said he didn't want to tie it to IEEE floating point
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  467. # [22:31] <roc> is there a rational reason not to, given JS and most other languages depend them?
  468. # [22:32] <sayrer> not that I know of
  469. # [22:32] <sayrer> the JSON specified by the RFC allows you to support whatever extensions you want, btw
  470. # [22:33] <Hixie> lovely
  471. # [22:33] <sayrer> the main change in ES3.1 is to allow primitive root values
  472. # [22:33] * Hixie strikes "error handling" from his JSON fixit list and adds "utter mess caused by allowing arbitrary extensions"
  473. # [22:34] <Dashiva> Just require namespaces for the extensions
  474. # [22:34] <sayrer> see, JSON really is replacing XML!
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  488. # [23:07] <Hixie> 67%
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  494. # [23:19] <Philip`> I like how example 1 on http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objects/games is giving bogus metadata
  495. # [23:19] <Philip`> (It says it's talking about resource="http://example.com/video_object.swf" when actually it's a game_object.swf instead)
  496. # [23:19] <Hixie> 68%
  497. # [23:25] <Hixie> i don't really understand what the resource="" URL is for on that example
  498. # [23:25] <Hixie> couldn't it just be anything?
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  500. # [23:27] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  501. # [23:28] <annevk5> sigh, the markup they recommend will not exactly do as shown in text/html
  502. # [23:28] <annevk5> (apart from the xmlns clutter, that is)
  503. # [23:28] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  504. # [23:29] <Philip`> Hixie: The resource is to tell the RDFa processor what object the <a rel href>s are properties of
  505. # [23:30] <Hixie> so how does yahoo know which URLs to examine the properties of?
  506. # [23:30] <Hixie> is there any way to test this in anything approaching real time?
  507. # [23:31] <Philip`> It looks like the idea is that when a page comes up in the search results, they look at its RDF triples and if there's one saying "the media:thumbnail of foo is bar" then they'll show the little bar picture and make it link to foo
  508. # [23:31] <Hixie> so then it doesn't matter what the value is, right?
  509. # [23:32] <Hixie> oh wait they make it link to foo?
  510. # [23:32] <Hixie> not to the page?
  511. # [23:32] <Philip`> Oh, but that's probably not all since it's got <object rel=media:game> too, which I guess must do something
  512. # [23:32] <Hixie> sigh, authors are never going to make heads or tails of this
  513. # [23:32] <Philip`> They can copy and paste the examples
  514. # [23:32] <Hixie> the examples are wrong, as you just pointed out!
  515. # [23:33] <Philip`> and we'll have a thousand pages all making assertions about http://example.com/video_object.swf
  516. # [23:34] * Joins: rey (i=he@unaffiliated/rey)
  517. # [23:34] <Philip`> Hixie: I assume the "Test Markup" button on that page will let you test things in real time
  518. # [23:34] * Parts: rey (i=he@unaffiliated/rey)
  519. # [23:36] <Hixie> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjunkyard.damowmow.com%2F368
  520. # [23:37] <Philip`> Works fine with tag soup too
  521. # [23:38] <Hixie> if you change <object> to <div> it says that one of the required attributes is missing
  522. # [23:38] <Hixie> ...
  523. # [23:38] <Hixie> so it's not rdfa
  524. # [23:39] <Philip`> Really? Works fine for me with <div>
  525. # [23:39] <Hixie> hm, yes, indeed
  526. # [23:39] <Hixie> weird
  527. # [23:39] <Hixie> compare
  528. # [23:39] <Hixie> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjunkyard.damowmow.com%2F369
  529. # [23:39] <Hixie> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjunkyard.damowmow.com%2F370
  530. # [23:40] <Hixie> they parse the URLs incorrectly, too
  531. # [23:40] <Hixie> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjunkyard.damowmow.com%2F372
  532. # [23:42] <Philip`> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Frdfa%2Fmisc01.html
  533. # [23:43] <Hixie> wow, you killed it
  534. # [23:43] <Philip`> (http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Frdfa%2Fmisc00.html does work)
  535. # [23:43] <Philip`> Gosh, I never meant to kill it
  536. # [23:43] <Hixie> dude they totally don't actually support xmlns
  537. # [23:43] <Hixie> they use magic prefixes!
  538. # [23:43] <Hixie> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjunkyard.damowmow.com%2F375
  539. # [23:43] <Hixie> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjunkyard.damowmow.com%2F376
  540. # [23:43] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  541. # [23:44] <Hixie> they do check the URL in the xmlns:media="" attribute though
  542. # [23:46] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  543. # [23:46] <Hixie> they don't support CURIEs either
  544. # [23:46] <Hixie> they just have magic prefixes and they check that they are declared to the expected value
  545. # [23:47] <rubys> The HTML 4.2 page is dated March 7, 2009. Doesn't seem that old to me.
  546. # [23:48] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ARPServlet?URI=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Frdfa%2Fmisc02.html&PARSE=Parse+URI%3A+&TRIPLES_AND_GRAPH=PRINT_TRIPLES&FORMAT=PNG_EMBED
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  548. # [23:49] <Hixie> Philip`: nice
  549. # [23:49] <Hixie> Philip`: guess you should report it
  550. # [23:51] <Philip`> Hmm, they have a nice problem-reporting form but it just uses mailto: and so it doesn't work
  551. # [23:52] <annevk5> rubys, http://www.crockford.com/html/ is relatively old, the 4.2 page doesn't amount to anything last I checked...
  552. # [23:55] <roc> the "HTML 4.2" blog post just says that he will simplify, streamline and generalize
  553. # [23:55] * Philip` sends a manual email instead
  554. # [23:55] <Hixie> Philip`: hahaha, they support these attributes on any namespace, including the null namespace: http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=hixie.ch%2Fwww%2Ftests%2Fadhoc%2Frdfa%2F001.xml
  555. # [23:55] <roc> which is obviously something no-one can disagree with
  556. # [23:56] <roc> I'd like to see how he actually plans to do that without breaking the Web
  557. # [23:56] <Hixie> you can simplify too much, and you can generalise too much
  558. # [23:56] <Hixie> i have no idea what "streamlining" means in this context
  559. # [23:56] <gsnedders> where is the ES 3.1 draft?
  560. # [23:56] * Philip` notes that http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0096.html is where this was mentioned
  561. # [23:56] <roc> and without leaving behaviour unspecified
  562. # [23:57] <rubys> I'm sure that his intentions are good, not evil. <http://www.json.org/license.html>
  563. # [23:58] <Hixie> Philip`: oh hey, i totally misunderstood what that rdfa was doing
  564. # [23:58] <Hixie> Philip`: the <a>s nested in the <object> are misleading
  565. # [23:58] <Hixie> Philip`: they're all using the implied subject of the whole page
  566. # [23:59] <Philip`> Hixie: Do you just mean they support the RDFa attributes on elements in any namespace? (which doesn't seem inherently unreasonable)
  567. # [23:59] <Hixie> yes
  568. # [23:59] <Hixie> that's what i meant above up to the point where i posted the 001 link
  569. # [23:59] <Hixie> haha this "rdfa" support is completely bogus
  570. # Session Close: Tue Mar 17 00:00:00 2009

The end :)