/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> Hixie: The <a>s are using the subject defined by the nearest @resource, I think
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> nope, i can get the same result without any nesting
  5. # [00:00] <Philip`> and they themselves define the predicate and object that goes with that subject
  6. # [00:02] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@66.194.95.217)
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> good lord almighty rdfa is really feaking confusing
  8. # [00:02] <rubys> blasphemer! <ducks>
  9. # [00:02] <annevk5> your English is too :p
  10. # [00:04] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-156-99.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  11. # [00:04] <Philip`> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Frdfa%2Fmisc03.html
  12. # [00:04] <Philip`> The last one looks wrong in that view, but correct in the raw RDF that it passes to the validator
  13. # [00:06] <Hixie> can you confirm that http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/rdfa/003.xml and http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/rdfa/004.xml are equivalent in RDFa?
  14. # [00:06] <Hixie> i'm having issues understanding it
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> it = the spec
  16. # [00:07] <gsnedders> RDFa is pointless
  17. # [00:07] * gsnedders hides
  18. # [00:09] <Philip`> Hixie: It looks to me like they ought to be the same :-)
  19. # [00:09] <Hixie> they're not in the yahoo thing
  20. # [00:10] * gsnedders writes to Edinburgh to defer his application for 2010 entry
  21. # [00:10] <Philip`> http://torrez.us/rdfa/ says they're the same
  22. # [00:10] <Hixie> seriously though, rdfa is really confusing
  23. # [00:10] <annevk5> Is Y! using a proper parser though? I thought the expectation was that people wouldn't use such a thing...
  24. # [00:10] <Hixie> when does one use rel and when does one use property?
  25. # [00:11] <Hixie> content or resource or href?
  26. # [00:11] <Philip`> ("same" in the sense that they parse into an equivalent RDF graph)
  27. # [00:11] <Philip`> annevk5: What do you mean by "proper"?
  28. # [00:11] <Philip`> annevk5: It's totally tag soup and not at all XML, and is case-insensitive etc
  29. # [00:12] <annevk5> Philip`, I meant in the RDF sense, but that's interesting too :D
  30. # [00:12] <Hixie> i was triggering their xml parser with my most recent tests
  31. # [00:12] <Hixie> illformed content caused it to fail
  32. # [00:12] <Philip`> annevk5: but I assumed the RDFa people's idea is that you extract data from the DOM in the same way (modulo real vs fake namespace declarations etc)
  33. # [00:12] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-37a31599ebf6ec3e)
  34. # [00:12] <Hixie> the yahoo thing is definitely not following rdfa rules correctly
  35. # [00:13] <Philip`> annevk5: and I thought that was what existing tools tended to do, e.g. using Tidy to convert stuff into XML before parsing it
  36. # [00:13] <annevk5> Philip`, which is why I meant in the RDF sense
  37. # [00:13] <Hixie> actually i lie
  38. # [00:13] <Hixie> they are getting the same triples out
  39. # [00:13] <Hixie> they're just reading their rdf tree wrongly
  40. # [00:15] <Philip`> s/tree/graph/
  41. # [00:19] <Hixie> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=hixie.ch%2Fwww%2Ftests%2Fadhoc%2Frdfa%2F002.xml
  42. # [00:19] <Hixie> i made the button disappear!
  43. # [00:20] <Philip`> Can you use this to sabotage Yahoo search result pages?
  44. # [00:21] <Hixie> i don't understand http://torrez.us/services/rdfa/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhixie.ch%2Fwww%2Ftests%2Fadhoc%2Frdfa%2F002.xml
  45. # [00:21] <Hixie> am i misunderstanding curies?
  46. # [00:22] <Philip`> What bit don't you understand?
  47. # [00:22] <Hixie> where did my namespaces go?
  48. # [00:22] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/www/tests/adhoc/rdfa/002.xml
  49. # [00:22] <Philip`> It doesn't matter where they went
  50. # [00:22] <Hixie> in particular test3
  51. # [00:23] <Hixie> i mean the namespace values, not the prefixes
  52. # [00:23] <Philip`> Oh
  53. # [00:23] <Philip`> Hmm...
  54. # [00:25] <Philip`> You have to use Safe CURIEs
  55. # [00:25] <Philip`> rel="[med:ia/game]"
  56. # [00:26] <Hixie> ...why?
  57. # [00:27] <Hixie> 5.4.4. Use of CURIEs in Specific Attributes says rel="" takes regular curies
  58. # [00:27] <Hixie> "@rel and @rev do not differentiate their two types of data by using [safe CURIE]s. Instead, any value that matches an entry in the list of link types in the section The rel attribute, MUST be treated as if it was a URI within the XHTML vocabulary, and all other values must be CURIEs."
  59. # [00:27] <Philip`> Oops, I was reading the wrong bit
  60. # [00:28] <Hixie> this is a seriously confusing technology
  61. # [00:28] <Philip`> but if you use rel="[med:ia/game]" in http://torrez.us/rdfa/ then it works like you want :-)
  62. # [00:28] <Hixie> so http://torrez.us/rdfa/ is buggy?
  63. # [00:29] <Philip`> Seems so
  64. # [00:30] <Philip`> Since the rel token isn't a known keyword, it should be processed a CURIE with prefix "[med" and name "ia/game]", I think
  65. # [00:31] <Philip`> though I don't see anything that defines what should happen when the prefix isn't in scope
  66. # [00:31] * Philip` guesses Hixie is not being convinced of the value and quality of RDFa
  67. # [00:31] <Hixie> oh i'm being convinced...
  68. # [00:33] <Lachy> Hixie, what? Are you seriously almost convinved to add RDFa to HTML5?
  69. # [00:34] <Philip`> HTML is way too easy to understand already
  70. # [00:34] <Lachy> LOL
  71. # [00:34] <Philip`> We need to do something about that
  72. # [00:34] <Hixie> i think it's pretty clear that there are use cases that need to be addressed
  73. # [00:34] <Lachy> possibly. But does RDFa really address those cases?
  74. # [00:35] <Hixie> hard to tell, given how mind-bendingly confusing it is
  75. # [00:37] <Lachy> I'm not sure what the use cases are exactly, since I haven't followed most of the RDF threads. But I don't like the idea of introducing RDFa mostly due to its overall complexity
  76. # [00:40] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  77. # [00:41] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/pyRdfa/extract?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Frdfa%2Fmisc01.html&format=pretty-xml&warnings=false&parser=lax&host=xhtml&space-preserve=true&submit=Go%21
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  80. # [01:12] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160va8b.cable.mindspring.com)
  81. # [01:12] <sayrer> gsnedders, http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=es3.1:es3.1_proposal_working_draft
  82. # [01:15] * Quits: atw2 (n=atwilson@74.125.59.1)
  83. # [01:20] <sayrer> Hixie, why do keep tearing down RDFa? Why do you Creative Commons so much?
  84. # [01:21] <sayrer> Why do you hate Creative Commons so much?
  85. # [01:21] <Hixie> sayrer: should i add rdfa to html5?
  86. # [01:22] <sayrer> Yahoo! supports it. So does Obama.
  87. # [01:22] <Hixie> that doesn't answer my question :-)
  88. # [01:23] <sayrer> My opinion is archived, let me dig up a hypertext reference
  89. # [01:25] <sayrer> Hixie, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Feb/0328.html
  90. # [01:25] <Hixie> is that a "yes" or a "no"? i don't understand
  91. # [01:25] <sayrer> it's a "doesn't matter"
  92. # [01:26] <sayrer> which is different than "I don't care"
  93. # [01:26] <sayrer> even if I had an opinion, putting it in HTML5 would do nothing
  94. # [01:26] <Hixie> your opinions are very confusing
  95. # [01:26] <Hixie> much like rdfa itself :-)
  96. # [01:26] <jcranmer> RDF must burn in hell
  97. # [01:27] <jcranmer> RDFa sounds too much like RDF
  98. # [01:27] <sayrer> how about this: If it were my document, I wouldn't put it in
  99. # [01:27] <sayrer> Hixie, does that work?
  100. # [01:27] <Hixie> sayrer: so i should't add rdfa to html5?
  101. # [01:27] * Philip` finds jcranmer's opinions refreshingly clear
  102. # [01:27] <Hixie> i thought you did have a document that was html5 now :-)
  103. # [01:27] <sayrer> mine is called HTML 2010, I think
  104. # [01:27] <sayrer> still trying not to be confusing
  105. # [01:28] <Philip`> C++0x should have taught the world not to put future dates in standard names
  106. # [01:28] <jcranmer> it should be released in late 2009
  107. # [01:28] <Philip`> even if the resolution is limited to a decade
  108. # [01:28] <sayrer> I don't expect any title I pick will be the name of a standard
  109. # [01:28] * Hixie still plans to reach last call in 2009 :-)
  110. # [01:29] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.18.76)
  111. # [01:29] <Philip`> jcranmer: Sounds like they're cutting it a bit close :-)
  112. # [01:29] <jcranmer> now, if only I could convince those arguing about whether or not <time> needs to support non-Gregorian calendars that 99.99% of users don't care
  113. # [01:30] <Hixie> jcranmer: have actual use cases been mentioned in that thread?
  114. # [01:30] <Hixie> i lost track a few days ago
  115. # [01:30] <roc> yes
  116. # [01:30] <Hixie> ok good
  117. # [01:30] <sayrer> In HTML 2010, there is no <time>
  118. # [01:30] <sayrer> eventually it will float
  119. # [01:30] <Hixie> sayrer: so what element should microformats use?
  120. # [01:30] <jcranmer> I think people were talking about something like mentioning dates for old Parliamentary records or something
  121. # [01:31] <jcranmer> Hixie: <doesitreallymatter>
  122. # [01:31] <Hixie> jcranmer: why won't plain text do for that use cases again?
  123. # [01:31] <roc> for example, a history of Central America written in the Mayan calendar
  124. # [01:31] <sayrer> microformats are a so far unsuccessful experiment
  125. # [01:31] <Hixie> wow, sayrer and i are two for two on agreeing on things today
  126. # [01:31] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.76)
  127. # [01:32] <sayrer> I like that SGML people idenitified them as "architectural forms" and said they wouldn't catch on
  128. # [01:38] <Hixie> i wonder what the benefit of marking a string in rdf as a particular type is
  129. # [01:39] <Hixie> and what the expected behaviour is when the type given -- e.g. ISO8601 date -- doesn't match the actual type -- e.g. RFC822 date
  130. # [01:40] <sayrer> no need to wonder, surely there are RSS 1.0 instances of that exact example
  131. # [01:41] <sayrer> answer: don't use and RDF parser
  132. # [01:41] <Hixie> 75%
  133. # [01:41] <sayrer> don't use an RDF parser
  134. # [01:41] <Hixie> i meant the theoretical answer of rdf types
  135. # [01:41] <Hixie> s/types/people/
  136. # [01:42] <sayrer> oh they never answer stuff like that, afaik
  137. # [01:43] * sayrer has Atom flashbacks
  138. # [01:43] <Hixie> maybe i should introduce a simple syntax for giving structured data that can be used by both the microformats and rdfa crowds, and we can drop <time> at the same time
  139. # [01:43] <Philip`> http://developer.search.yahoo.com/help/objectfinder?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Frdfa%2Fmisc03.html
  140. # [01:43] <Philip`> See numbers 6 and 7
  141. # [01:44] <sayrer> Hixie, if the syntax resulted in a rendering, that might work
  142. # [01:44] <Philip`> It looks like it's handling <b><i></b></i> like how HTML5 says
  143. # [01:44] <Hixie> Philip`: holy crap, i was about to say, that's an html5 parser
  144. # [01:45] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.76)
  145. # [01:46] <Philip`> "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Yahoo! SearchMonkey 1.0; http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/useragent)"
  146. # [01:46] <Philip`> http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/useragent - "Sorry, the page you requested was not found."
  147. # [01:46] <sayrer> http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/smguide/overview.html
  148. # [01:47] * Philip` wonders if SearchMonkey uses a different parser to the real Yahoo search
  149. # [01:47] <Philip`> ...e.g. html5lib
  150. # [01:47] <sayrer> http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/smguide/datarss.html
  151. # [01:47] <sayrer> what could be simpler?
  152. # [01:49] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
  153. # [02:00] <Hixie> ooh, i did the whole Browsers section in a few hours
  154. # [02:00] <Hixie> time for a break
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  156. # [02:14] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
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  160. # [03:26] <Hixie> Lachy: here
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  257. # [09:24] <hsivonen> heh. yesterday I thought about writing tests to discover if Y! *really* implements RDFa. It seems now I don't need to.
  258. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: how come?
  259. # [09:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: according to IRC logs, Hixie and Philip` already did the testing
  260. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, OK
  261. # [09:41] <hsivonen> interestingly, of the things I've blogged about on hacking Gecko code, the report on a patch that never got in has generated the largest number of interested email from the developers of other apps (the post about the OS X clipboard)
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  269. # [09:51] * zcorpan wonders whether someone has pointed out that firefox already has the feature that's being discussed in the 'view source' thread
  270. # [09:51] <zcorpan> it's called "view selection source"
  271. # [09:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it has been pointed out in previous threads on the topic, IIRC
  272. # [09:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: doing safe "pretty"-printing will probably make it more ugly if the original source is already half-pritty-printed
  273. # [09:53] <roc> someone should point it out again
  274. # [09:53] <roc> "bags not"
  275. # [09:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: a more useful pretty-printing is a tree view that hides whitespace-only text nodes
  276. # [09:56] * zcorpan has played around with css transitions this morning and found that it was surprisingly hard to get a simple menu working acceptably
  277. # [09:56] <zcorpan> things i'd like to change
  278. # [09:57] <zcorpan> * make height:0 and height:0px both work
  279. # [09:57] <zcorpan> * make 'display' an animatable property (that just flips to the new value at the end of the transition)
  280. # [09:58] <zcorpan> * make height:auto work by using the computed value
  281. # [09:58] <jgraham> Didn't Mozilla used to implement "View Source" as "View DOM Tree" but changed because people complained?
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  283. # [09:59] <jgraham> I think the whole idea of reccommending UA features to match some political goals of the W3C is slightly absurd
  284. # [09:59] <zcorpan> * make text-shadow not affect layout (unrelated to transitions but anyway)
  285. # [10:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: a tree view doesn't solve the issue of wanting authors to copy and paste reseriazed markup
  286. # [10:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but I suppose a "clean" view could mess with text node contents and say "tough" to scripts that break
  287. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I would not at all be surprised if many people objected to "View DOM Tree"
  288. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> since many probably have no idea what it means
  289. # [10:03] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The point is that it was called "View Source" but implemented as a serialization of the DOM tree
  290. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> ah
  291. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> well, it definitely shouldn't be called "View Source" if it's not showing the actual source
  292. # [10:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: If you are going down this road, allowing authors to select anything other than a complete subtree is obviously wrong so you could just add a copy function to firebug/dragonfly/etc that copied a serialized view of the subtree under the node
  293. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> maybe it should be "View Raw" and "View Cooked"
  294. # [10:05] * zcorpan remembers a moz bug where view source didn't match what came from the network, apparently an artifact of how source highlighting was implemented
  295. # [10:06] <zcorpan> maybe something like <foo<bar> showed up as <foo><bar>
  296. # [10:07] <jgraham> Maybe I am just remembering what zcorpan is talking about and it wasn't a total reserialization
  297. # [10:08] <jgraham> In any case View Source shoud do exactly what it says on the tin
  298. # [10:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I expect reimplementing source highlighting to be "fun"
  299. # [10:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: will you highlight syntax errors? :)
  300. # [10:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: very unlikely
  301. # [10:10] <zcorpan> too bad :(
  302. # [10:10] <roc> zcorpan: how does text-shadow affect layout? are you just talking about potentially adding scrollbars?
  303. # [10:11] <zcorpan> roc: yes
  304. # [10:11] <roc> why do you care? I'm curious
  305. # [10:11] <roc> (we have a plan to make text-shadow and other things not affect layout)
  306. # [10:12] <roc> jgraham: I don't think View Source ever did "View DOM Tree", but it did do "View Document Reloaded From Server" which a lot of people complained about
  307. # [10:12] <zcorpan> roc: in my case, i have overflow:hidden on submenus to make a css transition. when tabbing through the links, the menu moves because of text-shadow
  308. # [10:12] <roc> hmm
  309. # [10:12] <zcorpan> roc: i solved it with padding and negative margin, though
  310. # [10:13] <roc> I wouldn't have thought text-shadow would cause a layout change in conjunction with overflow:hidden
  311. # [10:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: actually, since the plan is to generate a second tokenizer for view source, I suppose it would be OK to run additional code for highlighting parse errors
  312. # [10:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I just don't want that code in the tokenizer that runs when people browse the Web
  313. # [10:13] <roc> I think you'll want to highlight syntax errors, since we currently do and we wouldn't want to regress that
  314. # [10:14] <hsivonen> roc: what's highlighted except />?
  315. # [10:15] <roc> hmm, maybe nothing
  316. # [10:16] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <!doctype<, <foo<bar
  317. # [10:16] <roc> I assumed there was more than just that
  318. # [10:16] <hsivonen> ok
  319. # [10:16] <roc> I guess tokenizer errors are highlighted
  320. # [10:17] <zcorpan> <foo/bar>
  321. # [10:17] <roc> anyway it's useful :-)
  322. # [10:18] <zcorpan> or maybe <foo bar/baz>
  323. # [10:18] <roc> it would be really useful if you had different colors for hard errors and soft errors :-)
  324. # [10:18] <hsivonen> roc: for what definitions of hard and soft?
  325. # [10:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: could you blink <blink> tags? :)
  326. # [10:19] <roc> no, he could not
  327. # [10:19] <roc> URI attributes should still be turned into links though
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  329. # [10:20] * zcorpan wonders whether <?xml-stylesheet href="..."?> is auto-linked
  330. # [10:21] <zcorpan> apparently not
  331. # [10:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what will be used for xml view source?
  332. # [10:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's a hard question. one possibility is the HTML5 tokenizer with a bogo tree builder
  333. # [10:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: as I understand it, currently the HTML tokenizer is used for XML view source
  334. # [10:23] <zcorpan> yeah
  335. # [10:24] <hsivonen> having an XML5 tokenizer would help :-)
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  337. # [10:24] <roc> I thought HTML5 distinguished error types but I must be wrong
  338. # [10:24] <hsivonen> particularly, having one for which a second view source tokenizer can be autogenerated :-)
  339. # [10:25] <hsivonen> roc: there are parse errors, other machine-checkable conformance errors and non-machine-checkable conformance errors
  340. # [10:25] <zcorpan> roc: it did in the early days where hard erros were errors with undefined error recovery (i.e. before hixie figured out what to do with what is now AAA)
  341. # [10:25] <hsivonen> roc: I think parse errors is the only class of errors for which it makes sense to ship checking in Firefox
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  343. # [10:26] <hsivonen> roc: I'd put other machine-checkable errors in an extension if it were up to me
  344. # [10:26] <roc> depends on what you mean by errors
  345. # [10:26] <hsivonen> roc: since that would basically be a GWT port of Validator.nu
  346. # [10:26] <roc> there are certain kinds of "errors" that you can only really catch in the layout engine
  347. # [10:27] <roc> if you want to catch the ones that arise due to script execution
  348. # [10:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it would be nice with tree-builder-level errors (in particular highlighting unexpected end tags)
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  350. # [10:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that would require duplicating all the trickery Validator.nu used for highlighting those, but it would be possible
  351. # [10:28] <hsivonen> roc: do you mean checking validity at a user-chosen point in time or performing continuous validation as scripts run?
  352. # [10:33] <roc> the latter
  353. # [10:34] <hsivonen> roc: I see. on the face of it, it seems like a perf problem or at least a non-trivial feature implementation-wise
  354. # [10:34] <roc> it depends
  355. # [10:35] <roc> our CSS warnings are a bit of a perf problem sometimes
  356. # [10:37] <hsivonen> roc: I'm not even sure I'd want to validate as scripts run; only when spinning the event loop, and at that point one would need to remember the mutation points or pay the price of revalidating the whole DOM
  357. # [10:38] <roc> ah
  358. # [10:39] <roc> I'm thinking about places in the code where we already find things that are clearly errors and reject them
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  360. # [10:39] <roc> not general DOM tree conformance rules
  361. # [10:39] <hsivonen> otherwise, authors would have to be careful to perform their tree mutations in the right order to keep things valid after each individual DOM operation
  362. # [10:39] <hsivonen> I see
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  390. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: please ping me when you around
  391. # [13:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ping
  392. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I've been invited to do a sort of speaking tour in a few cities in Australia in May
  393. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> to university audiences
  394. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> graduate/research-oriented folk
  395. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> I want to cover some of the work going on around HTML5
  396. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> so was thinking to talk about your work on validator.nu
  397. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> by proxy
  398. # [13:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: would you like to remix my slides?
  399. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> yeah, that was what I was going to ask
  400. # [13:29] <hsivonen> I'll dig up my original files. all in proprietary formats, though...
  401. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: any format fine by me
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  403. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> I might want to hit you up for some "lessons learned" info about your work on integrating an html5 parser in gecko
  404. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> also
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  407. # [13:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator-nu-slides.zip
  408. # [13:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in shiny Cocoa app lock-in formats
  409. # [13:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the very short version of lessons learned is:
  410. # [13:41] <hsivonen> * Translating Java to C++ is the easy part
  411. # [13:42] <hsivonen> * Writing Java and translating it is a pretty nice way to write C++
  412. # [13:42] <hsivonen> * There are more places in a browser that depend on the HTML parser than you'd think
  413. # [13:42] <hsivonen> * Nested scripts are hard
  414. # [13:43] <hsivonen> * HTML character encoding stuff is worse than it appears
  415. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
  416. # [13:44] <hsivonen> * Usual software project issues apply: goalposts move, polish takes time
  417. # [13:45] <hsivonen> * Learning about the internals of a huge system takes time; mxr necessary in the absence of Eclipse's code comprehension tools
  418. # [13:45] <hsivonen> * Valgrind rocks
  419. # [13:46] <hsivonen> those are my first thoughts
  420. # [13:46] <hsivonen> of course, garbage collectors rock, too, because with them you don't need Valgrind unless you are the person writing the collector
  421. # [13:47] * zcorpan wonders what the second time means in transition:visibility 2s 1s;
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  423. # [13:57] <Lachy> zcorpan, delay
  424. # [13:58] <Lachy> so the transition will begin 1s after the property is changed, and transition over a 2s duration
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  428. # [14:06] <zcorpan> ah
  429. # [14:07] <zcorpan> ok but what does the second time mean in transition-duration:2s 1s?
  430. # [14:09] <hsivonen> Does Flash talk to AT anywhere other than Windows?
  431. # [14:09] <Lachy> zcorpan, the duration for the second property specified using transition-property.
  432. # [14:10] <Lachy> e.g. transition-property: color, background; transition-duration: 1s, 2s;
  433. # [14:11] <zcorpan> oh i missed the comma in the grammar
  434. # [14:16] <zcorpan> ok so if i have div { transition:visibility 1s } div:hover { visibility:hidden }
  435. # [14:16] <zcorpan> after how long should the div become hidden and visible when hovering and removing hover?
  436. # [14:17] <Lachy> then the visibility will transition from visible to hidden. But since there are only two states, it depends on the timing function and decimal rounding.
  437. # [14:18] <Lachy> so with linear timing function, it should be after about 0.5s, when the calculation starts round down to 0 instead of back up to 1
  438. # [14:18] <Lachy> at least, that's how I understand it
  439. # [14:19] <Lachy> we have some test cases internally that you can take a look at to see it in action
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  444. # [14:43] * MikeSmith gets back from dinner
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  447. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I like the "Valgrind rocks" part especially
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  449. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> and "Writing Java and translating it is a pretty nice way to write C++" is an interesting point too
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  451. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> the fact that it's actually practical
  452. # [15:00] <hsivonen> It depends on what kind of Java the Java code is, though
  453. # [15:00] <hsivonen> this code is made with an eye towards translation to C++ and JS
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  458. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, understood
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  460. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> still, even given that, that fact that it's practical at all is notable
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  466. # [16:02] <rubys> hisvonen: re: "an eye towards translation to C++", for some values of C++ perhaps. :-)
  467. # [16:02] <rubys> example: the code generated today depends heavily on the mozilla classes and on assumptions like utf-16.
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  469. # [16:03] <jgraham> rubys: Is it the code generated that depends heavilly on those assumptions or the code generating?
  470. # [16:04] <jgraham> Because the former seems less of a problem than the latter
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  473. # [16:04] <rubys> the former, but it makes it rather difficult for somebody else to pick up from there and take it in a different direction.
  474. # [16:04] <rubys> at least for this someone :-)
  475. # [16:04] <annevk> but you could hack the translator maybe?
  476. # [16:05] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  477. # [16:05] <jgraham> rubys: I would have thought that e.g. a notional v.nu -> python translation would en up depending a lot on python APIs and the Python string type in particular
  478. # [16:05] <rubys> I generally don't give up easily, and that was my thoughts, but it looked too difficult (read: more than a weekend project to get even small results) for me at the time.
  479. # [16:06] <rubys> jgraham: that's exactly what I want to be working on.
  480. # [16:06] <jgraham> rubys: I know :)
  481. # [16:06] <jgraham> (which would be really cool btw)
  482. # [16:07] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-085f9b81b3d206af)
  483. # [16:07] <rubys> I was hoping that hsivonen was still around. Because a command line tokenizer that worked with the mozilla class libraries might be something smaller that, if I saw how that worked, I could start with.
  484. # [16:07] <rubys> by that I mean, just the tokenizer. The rest could be added in a second pass.
  485. # [16:08] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  486. # [16:08] <rubys> A third pass could be pythonic (elementtree, etc)
  487. # [16:09] <jgraham> You could probably hook a standalone tokenizer in to html5lib fairly easilly
  488. # [16:10] * Philip` still kind of likes his OCaml tokeniser generator :-)
  489. # [16:10] <jgraham> s/n t/nt/
  490. # [16:10] <Philip`> (though it doesn't currently generate Python, only C++ and JS and Perl)
  491. # [16:10] <rubys> Philip`: does it pass the HTML5 tests?
  492. # [16:10] <Philip`> rubys: Some versions have passed all the tokeniser tests at some point in the past
  493. # [16:11] <rubys> just the tokenizer tests? That's somewhat less interesting.
  494. # [16:11] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.16.25) (Remote closed the connection)
  495. # [16:11] * jgraham wonders how it could pass other tests without implementing a treebuilder
  496. # [16:11] <Philip`> It's a tokeniser, so it's not going to run any non-tokeniser tests :-)
  497. # [16:12] <rubys> I'm interested in a tree builder.
  498. # [16:12] <Philip`> I have half of an OCaml tree builder generator, but that's not enough to actually be useful :-(
  499. # [16:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Generating C++ is more useful than generating python if you can make python run that C++
  500. # [16:13] <jgraham> (unless the generated python is better than html5lib)
  501. # [16:14] <rubys> generating python may be useful for other implementations of python (jython, pypy, etc)
  502. # [16:14] <Philip`> (By "better", do you mean "faster"?)
  503. # [16:15] <jgraham> Philip`: Faster would be one criterion, yes
  504. # [16:15] <rubys> What appeals to me about Henri's is that it is likely to be maintained, so even if it isn't a better match technically, it appears to be the one to bet on.
  505. # [16:15] <Philip`> (If so, I'm not sure how to make it faster, since I've not seen any easily fixable bottlenecks in html5lib, and can't think of alternative ways of writing the code that would make it much faster)
  506. # [16:16] * Philip` 's OCaml stuff is very much unmaintained, but he thinks it's a fun toy :-)
  507. # [16:17] * Philip` hopes a pure-Python html5lib will always exist, because it's often a pain to use impure modules
  508. # [16:17] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  509. # [16:17] <Philip`> (e.g. in sandboxed environments where you can't use binary modules)
  510. # [16:17] <annevk> or they ship a native version with Python
  511. # [16:18] <rubys> annevk: +1
  512. # [16:19] <rubys> to get it to ship with python, it might be helpful to move past "draft" stage at some point that's still useful.
  513. # [16:21] <Philip`> annevk: People still use Python 2.3 today, so having it added in Python 2.7 won't solve all the problems until many years in the future
  514. # [16:22] <annevk> in that case they might not care whether html5lib is still maintained
  515. # [16:22] * Philip` is thinking of things like Google App Engine, which are likely to be frozen at a particular version for a long time
  516. # [16:22] <zcorpan> Lachy: the spec already defines how to mutate the dom to make it xml-compatible
  517. # [16:22] <rubys> This group seems to have some good contacts at Google.
  518. # [16:23] <Philip`> Has anyone pointed out that a document like <script>document.write('x')</script> is impossible to serialise to a DOM that will be parsed back into the same DOM?
  519. # [16:24] <Philip`> (Well, impossible for a generic algorithm to serialise)
  520. # [16:24] <annevk> or <script>document.body.appendChild(document.createElement("img"))</script>
  521. # [16:24] <annevk> not sure anyone did that yet
  522. # [16:26] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  523. # [16:28] <zcorpan> you could have a view source that does a parse and serialize with no scripting support
  524. # [16:29] <Lachy> zcorpan, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#xml-fragment-serialization-algorithm defines that for things that would cause well formedness errors, throw an INVALID_STATE_ERR exception
  525. # [16:30] <Philip`> zcorpan: That would break pages like <script>document.write('<table>')</script><tr><td>foo
  526. # [16:30] <zcorpan> Lachy: i was referring to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#coercing-an-html-dom-into-an-infoset
  527. # [16:30] <zcorpan> Philip`: yes
  528. # [16:31] <Lachy> oh, I wasn't aware of that section
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  530. # [16:38] <sayrer> maybe it should be written in RPython
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  533. # [17:04] <hsivonen> rubys: the UTF-16 assumption is pretty contained
  534. # [17:04] <hsivonen> rubys: have you found issues where I assume the environment to be too Gecko-like not to be really pluggable?
  535. # [17:07] <hsivonen> I think by far the biggest deal with making the generator target a new environment is writing the IO driver
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  537. # [17:08] <hsivonen> I like to think that my most Gecko-specific assumption so far is that namespaces are primitives that don't need releasing
  538. # [17:09] <hsivonen> and that assumption is easy to change. It's just a bridge I haven't had a need to cross with Gecko
  539. # [17:09] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  540. # [17:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: I assumed that a reserializing-based cleanup wouldn't run scripts but would parse in the scripting on mode and then set the innerHTML of each <noscript> element to its textContent
  541. # [17:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why the last step?
  542. # [17:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: to get end tags and quoted attributes for stuff inside <noscript> without actually letting the contents leak into the outside tree building
  543. # [17:12] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  544. # [17:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it's quite possible that I'm missing something that I should have thought about regarding <noscript>...
  545. # [17:15] <zcorpan> doesn't the <noscript>.innerHTML setter set the content model flag to CDATA?
  546. # [17:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good point. that step would need to fake the context node for the purposes of the algorithm
  547. # [17:17] <annevk> "The response to the request can be found under a different URI and SHOULD be retrieved using a GET method on that resource." why SHOULD?! meh
  548. # [17:17] <annevk> -- http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616
  549. # [17:18] <zcorpan> what about <noembed>, <iframe>, etc?
  550. # [17:18] <Philip`> annevk: Because you might have valid reasons for not retrieving the resource under that different URI
  551. # [17:19] <annevk> Philip`, true, but the SHOULD also applies to the type of method
  552. # [17:19] <annevk> Philip`, which is the part I don't like
  553. # [17:22] <Philip`> annevk: I'm kind of assuming it intends something like "you SHOULD retrieve the resource, and if you do then you MUST use GET"
  554. # [17:22] <Philip`> though that's not what it actually says
  555. # [17:22] <annevk> right
  556. # [17:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: <noembed> might need the same treatment
  557. # [17:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: <iframe> probably not
  558. # [17:22] <zcorpan> why not?
  559. # [17:22] <annevk> there is only a single parse mode for <iframe>
  560. # [17:22] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  561. # [17:23] <zcorpan> not in opera, but i fail to see how that matters
  562. # [17:31] <zcorpan> it can contain markup intended for browsers that don't support iframes
  563. # [17:31] <annevk> then <style> and <script> should be required to use <!-- and such
  564. # [17:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  565. # [17:31] <annevk> <iframe> should probably be required to be empty
  566. # [17:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the spec doesn't provide for user toggling iframes on and off
  567. # [17:31] * Parts: Alkarex (n=alexandr@1006ds4-van.0.fullrate.dk)
  568. # [17:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it doesn't for noembed, either
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  573. # [17:33] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  574. # [17:33] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  579. # [19:40] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  580. # [19:40] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  590. # [20:01] <Hixie> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/85acf/microsoft_is_ignoring_web_standards_and_should/c08agbv
  591. # [20:07] * Philip` wonders where the idea of an "obligation to promote competition" comes from
  592. # [20:09] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  593. # [20:11] <Hixie> not that anyone cares, but our cats are ridiculous. http://junkyard.damowmow.com/380 he's been lying there for about 10 minutes now.
  594. # [20:11] <Hixie> he's fine, in case anyone wonders. he just likes to lie down like that.
  595. # [20:12] <rubys> citing wikipedia always gives an air of truthiness to any statement.
  596. # [20:14] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-219-24.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  597. # [20:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: But is their ridiculousness news?
  598. # [20:15] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@pD9579199.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009030221 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090314030759]")
  599. # [20:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: Also, why do I think the guy who wrote that comment failed to realize you read reddit?
  600. # [20:15] <zcorpan> rubys: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Proof#Proof_by_Wikipedia
  601. # [20:17] <rubys> bookmarked here: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/03/13/HTML5-Evolution#c1237317281
  602. # [20:17] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.45)
  603. # [20:18] <Philip`> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751831/ - everyone trusts IMDB
  604. # [20:19] <annevk2> rubys, are you asserting Hixie edited Wikipedia to state that the episode "was first broadcast 13 February 1986"? :p
  605. # [20:20] <Philip`> "In stage one we say nothing is going to happen. Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it. In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we *can* do. Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now."
  606. # [20:20] <Philip`> (says http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751831/quotes)
  607. # [20:20] <rubys> When I wrote that page, it never occurred to me that the value for x in 198x was the most important issue to be discussed. Go figure.
  608. # [20:22] <Philip`> Bikeshedding isn't about discussing "the most important issue", it's about discussing something that's easy to express a view on
  609. # [20:22] <gsnedders> (also, the least important issue)
  610. # [20:22] <Philip`> (No, there are many far less important issues)
  611. # [20:23] <gsnedders> (Also, we can conclude that nothing important is ever discussed in the HTML WG, because we only ever paint bikesheds)
  612. # [20:23] <rubys> (( O RLY? ))
  613. # [20:25] <Philip`> (I could argue that it's more a case of intelligent design than of evolution)
  614. # [20:25] <Philip`> (where 'intelligent design' means 'design by intelligent beings', not that it was actually designed intelligently)
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  617. # [20:42] <Hixie> gotta love people saying that html5 isn't extensible given how many extension mechanisms we have
  618. # [20:43] <sayrer> I think you could just remove the stated purpose of data-
  619. # [20:43] <sayrer> then you have a CSS like mechanism
  620. # [20:44] <Philip`> But you don't have any way to prevent collisions
  621. # [20:44] <Hixie> i don't think that would work well. but when i get around to looking at the rdfa use cases next month i expect (based on what rdfa proponents have said) that there will be enough of an argument there to add something for the embedded data space, either rdfa or something like that
  622. # [20:44] <gsnedders> RDFa is really weird.
  623. # [20:44] <Hixie> (there are big differences between data-*'s use case, and the use case for rdfa, and i don't think it makes sense to use the same technology for both)
  624. # [20:44] * gsnedders was reading up on it a few days ago, and it really is weird
  625. # [20:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: Data is really weird
  626. # [20:45] <gsnedders> RDFa is a lot weirder than RDF
  627. # [20:45] <sayrer> Hixie, what are the differences?
  628. # [20:45] <gsnedders> (or rather RDF/XML)
  629. # [20:45] <rubys> have you looked at RDF/XML ?
  630. # [20:45] <rubys> It is *very* weird. People (thankfully) only tend to use a small subset of it.
  631. # [20:45] <gsnedders> rubys: Who?
  632. # [20:45] <gsnedders> Me?
  633. # [20:45] <rubys> gsnedders: you
  634. # [20:46] <sayrer> http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg11957.html
  635. # [20:46] <gsnedders> I have, and I have to agree that parts are weird, but that said, I think RDFa tends to be weirder than RDF/XML.
  636. # [20:46] <Hixie> sayrer: rdf-like data tends to form a graph, or at the very least, name/value pairs with duplicates, with names from multiple sources
  637. # [20:46] <Philip`> RDFa seems to be designed to represent the whole of RDF, not just the subset that people generally use
  638. # [20:47] <sayrer> Hixie, ok so it's an involved sort of data
  639. # [20:47] <sayrer> still don't see the problem
  640. # [20:47] <Hixie> sayrer: data-*'s use case is more about element-specific annotations
  641. # [20:47] <annevk2> Philip`, I think RDFa cannot express all either
  642. # [20:47] <Hixie> sayrer: i'm not saying that one couldn't be forced into fitting the other, i just don't think it makes sense
  643. # [20:47] <sayrer> it looks like RDFa is supposed to be element-specific annotations
  644. # [20:47] <Hixie> sayrer: just like you could use XML or JSON for similar purposes, but sometimes one is better
  645. # [20:48] <annevk2> Philip`, from memory I think either Mark Birbeck or Steven Pemberton said it hits about 80%
  646. # [20:48] <Hixie> RDFa isn't a particularly good fit for the annotation use cases either imho
  647. # [20:48] <Hixie> but it is better than data-* in that it isn't describing element-specific annotations, but url-specific annotations
  648. # [20:48] <Hixie> it doesn't matter what element the annotations are on
  649. # [20:48] <sayrer> I agree, I don't see what the problem with letting them use data- would be
  650. # [20:49] <Hixie> (<div about="#bar" property="x" content="y" id="bar"> is equivalent to <div id="bar"></div>...<div about="#bar" property="x" content="y"> for instance)
  651. # [20:50] <Hixie> sayrer: if we were trying to dismiss their use cases, "letting them" use data-* might be fine. but i want to address their use cases in good faith.
  652. # [20:51] <sayrer> ah, we're talking about different problems
  653. # [20:51] <sayrer> they clearly have a bad proposal
  654. # [20:51] <sayrer> I think data- is a fine way to let people try out bad proposals
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  658. # [20:58] <Philip`> sayrer: If people tried out a proposal and found that actually it wasn't bad, would they be able to keep using the same syntax or have to transition to something else?
  659. # [20:59] <sayrer> both, as they do in CSS
  660. # [20:59] <sayrer> or maybe the standard would fix a few problems with the data- thing
  661. # [21:00] <annevk2> but then UAs will actually do something with data- attributes which might not be what script authors want (e.g. they'd have to start avoiding certain names, etc.)
  662. # [21:01] <Philip`> Hmm... I wonder if there's a difference in that markup needs widespread usage before it can be judged useful, and widespread usage makes it a pain to throw all that away and start with a new syntax, whereas CSS merely needs one page and one browser in order to give a full demonstration of its value
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  667. # [21:18] <Hixie> what anne says is the main reason to avoid using data-*
  668. # [21:19] <Hixie> we don't want to ever end up in a position where data-* isn't safe for authors
  669. # [21:19] <rubys> what authors plan to use data-* today?
  670. # [21:20] <Hixie> i don't want to speak for anyone, but e.g. it would allow dojo to stop using non-standard attributes
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  672. # [21:21] <rubys> providing something speculatively in the hopes that somebody else might do something that they show no inclination of doing is not something I think is wise.
  673. # [21:21] <Philip`> I plan to use data-*, because there's been at least two situations where I've added custom attributes (and not cared about validation)
  674. # [21:22] <gsnedders> It would equally allow Anolis to stop abusing @title
  675. # [21:22] <gsnedders> (indeed, it already supports data-anolis-xref in 1.1dev, but that'll change to data-xref)
  676. # [21:23] <Philip`> One of those was in SVG (so HTML's data-* doesn't technically apply) containing some data that would be displayed in a table when you clicked on a node in a graph, and another was to have a formatted tooltip on some images (separately from @title because that can't contain formatting)
  677. # [21:23] <zcorpan> http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=593627&highlight=custom+attributes
  678. # [21:24] <Philip`> There's already solutions like http://www.alistapart.com/articles/customdtd/ for adding custom attributes, so the demand seems clear
  679. # [21:25] <Hixie> rubys: there are a number of authors i know of that are using data-* already, i just don't want to speak for them here
  680. # [21:25] <Hixie> it's one of the most well-received features in html5 by web app authors
  681. # [21:26] <Hixie> (which is ironic given that it doesn't do anything!)
  682. # [21:26] * gsnedders wonders how hard it'd be to make an html2rfc tool that was properly up-to-date
  683. # [21:26] * gsnedders wonders how to implement double spacing after a "." at the end of a sentence
  684. # [21:27] <Philip`> and not after e.g. "e.g."?
  685. # [21:28] <gsnedders> Yeah
  686. # [21:28] <gsnedders> http://unicode.org/reports/tr29/#Sentence_Boundaries has relevance
  687. # [21:28] * Philip` has trained himself to get annoyed when people accidentally have sentence-spacing after "e.g." in LaTeX documents
  688. # [21:28] <gsnedders> But RFCs must be US-ASCII
  689. # [21:28] <Philip`> (You have to write "e.g.\ foo" to make it a normal inter-word space instead)
  690. # [21:28] <gsnedders> So it should be a bit simpler
  691. # [21:28] <roc> the upside of not doing anything is that it's already implemented in all browsers
  692. # [21:29] <roc> fewer bugs too
  693. # [21:29] <annevk2> the DOM API is something that browsers would have to support at some point
  694. # [21:31] <Philip`> Hopefully people won't get too confused by trying to use the DOM API before it's supported in all browsers
  695. # [21:32] <Philip`> It seems that the formal blessing of data-* and its ability to avoid validation errors are sufficient reasons for people to be interested in the feature already
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  716. # [22:41] * jgraham points out that double spacing between sentences is weird typewriter legacy that is totally unneeded
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  720. # [22:42] * gsnedders points out RFC rules dictate it is required
  721. # [22:43] <olliej> jgraham: double spacing is much nicer to read imo
  722. # [22:43] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-32.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  723. # [22:43] * gsnedders slaps self for speaking on IRC and not doing his computing project that is due in tomorrow
  724. # [22:43] <jgraham> olliej: With proportional fonts?
  725. # [22:43] <gsnedders> (Not that'll be in on time, obviously :D)
  726. # [22:43] * Joins: john_fallows (n=j_r_fall@adsl-75-61-87-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  727. # [22:43] <olliej> jgraham: yes
  728. # [22:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yeah well IETF takes all its formatting requirements from the typewriter age
  729. # [22:44] <gsnedders> (I mean, the teacher didn't say _when_ it had to be in tomorrow…)
  730. # [22:45] <jgraham> olliej: Curious. I have never found that, and some randomly selected books don't have it so it doesn't seem to be a publishing norm.
  731. # [22:46] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  732. # [22:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: Properly printed books shouldn't have double, but shouldn't have a normal space either
  733. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Normal spaces should be between 1/5 and 1/3 em-space, and end-of-sentence space should be nearer 1/2 em-space
  734. # [22:48] <gsnedders> WTF? Half my recent tweets have vanished
  735. # [22:48] <jgraham> Measuring suggests that they are less than 50% larger in my Everyman's Library Uylsses
  736. # [22:49] <gsnedders> I ought to read Ulysses
  737. # [22:49] <gsnedders> (which I assume is what you meant)
  738. # [22:49] <john_fallows> Hixie: the latest EventSource API for SSE looks great - question: is it now illegal to send "open" and "error" event types in an SSE stream because eventSource.addEventListener("open", ...) and eventSource.addEventListener("error", ...) would be ambiguous if this is permitted?
  739. # [22:50] <jgraham> it is a running joke in my house that I have only read the first 500 pages
  740. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Well, according to Wikipedia, some editions are only 644 pages :P
  741. # [22:51] <jgraham> This one is about 1000
  742. # [22:51] <sayrer> I was sure that HTML5 would end up longer
  743. # [22:51] <Philip`> jgraham: Almost as large as Neal Stephenson's books!
  744. # [22:52] <Philip`> (Actually, Anathema only seems to be 937 pages)
  745. # [22:52] <Philip`> (*Anathem)
  746. # [22:52] <Hixie> john_fallows: it's actually been impossible to set the event name for some time now
  747. # [22:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: So, I take it you've never read Harry Potter? :P
  748. # [22:52] <jgraham> HTML5 is less confusing than Ulysses. But not so well written.
  749. # [22:52] <john_fallows> Hixie: okay, missed that removal from the spec, so we are locked down as message always?
  750. # [22:53] <Hixie> john_fallows: yeah, i believe so
  751. # [22:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: ?
  752. # [22:53] <john_fallows> ok, great - that allieviates any concern, thanks. :)
  753. # [22:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: Some of the Harry Potter books are longer than 500 pages
  754. # [22:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: I have read some books that are longer than 500 pages :-p
  755. # [22:53] <jgraham> (including all of Harry Potter several times over)
  756. # [22:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: In multiple languages?
  757. # [22:54] <gsnedders> (My step-cousin has read the whole thing three times, IIRC, twice in French and once in English)
  758. # [22:55] <jgraham> Not yetN
  759. # [22:55] * Philip` only consumed the audio book versions
  760. # [22:55] <john_fallows> Hixie: am i missing something? http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#processField seems to still have the ability to override the event name if the event field is present.
  761. # [22:55] * gsnedders read the entire thing once, in English
  762. # [22:55] <gsnedders> (Admittedly I read most of the books within 48 hours of their release)
  763. # [22:57] <olliej> gsnedders: you read the entire html5 spec?
  764. # [22:57] <gsnedders> olliej: Oh, I've done that too
  765. # [22:57] <olliej> gsnedders: and it's not english man :D
  766. # [22:57] <gsnedders> olliej: We were discussing Harry Potter! Keep up, man!
  767. # [22:57] <olliej> gsnedders: ...
  768. # [22:58] <olliej> gsnedders: is there a <harry> tag now?
  769. # [22:58] * gsnedders is blatantly meant to be doing his computing project
  770. # [22:58] <gsnedders> olliej: Only </sarcasm>
  771. # [22:58] <olliej> gsnedders: :D
  772. # [22:59] * gsnedders wonders if olliej actually gets that joke
  773. # [23:00] <olliej> gsnedders: that you're meant to be working on a project or the </sarcasm> bit?
  774. # [23:00] <gsnedders> olliej: </sarcasm>
  775. # [23:00] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  776. # [23:00] <olliej> nope :D
  777. # [23:00] <gsnedders> olliej: It is actually referenced in the spec.
  778. # [23:00] <gsnedders> olliej: Search for "sarcasm" (with quotes)
  779. # [23:00] <olliej> oh no
  780. # [23:01] * gsnedders will discuss almost anything to avoid doing work :P
  781. # [23:01] <Hixie> john_fallows: huh, go figure.
  782. # [23:02] <Hixie> john_fallows: i guess you _can_ send arbitrary events then
  783. # [23:02] <Hixie> john_fallows: i wonder why we still support that
  784. # [23:02] <gsnedders> Also: is it bad that when I got to maths yesterday that I was asked by the girl who I sit beside if I had chosen what dress to wear for the ball?
  785. # [23:03] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.166.199.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  786. # [23:03] <john_fallows> Hixie: IMHO this is probably no longer necessary, and as pointed out previously it is also ambiguous for "open" and "error" events.
  787. # [23:03] <Hixie> john_fallows: yeah
  788. # [23:03] <Hixie> john_fallows: can you send mail to the list saying that i should remove it?
  789. # [23:03] <john_fallows> Hixie: would you like me to send email to remind you to remove it?
  790. # [23:03] <john_fallows> :-)
  791. # [23:04] <Hixie> yes please :-)
  792. # [23:08] <john_fallows> Hixie: done.
  793. # [23:09] <Hixie> thanks!
  794. # [23:09] <john_fallows> np.
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  798. # [23:14] * dimich_away is now known as dimich
  799. # [23:17] * Philip` sees that john_fallows sadly removed the Harry Potter discussion from the IRC extract he posted to public-html
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  802. # [23:17] <Philip`> It might give people the false impression that we have useful, on-topic conversations here
  803. # [23:20] <gsnedders> A dangerous precedent indeed.
  804. # [23:25] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  806. # [23:34] <Hixie> 81%!
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  808. # [23:36] * gsnedders thinks we need a graph of time against % of spec annotated
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  812. # [23:54] <Hixie> aaaaaaah
  813. # [23:54] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
  814. # [23:54] <Hixie> pimpmyspec.net is down
  815. # [23:57] <gsnedders> Install anolis locally!
  816. # [23:57] * gsnedders ducks
  817. # [23:57] * gsnedders quacks
  818. # [23:57] <Hixie> didn't i try doing that once?
  819. # [23:57] * Philip` is reminded of the idea "A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable."
  820. # [23:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: I think that was before I even tried to support Py2.3, which I should now
  821. # [23:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: cool, is there some way to install it easily without root? like some command i can run or something?
  822. # [23:58] <Hixie> Philip`: ironically, at this point the only computer that can fail without it being a fatal problem to me is the computer i own
  823. # [23:58] <gsnedders> python setup.py --prefix=install/here install
  824. # [23:59] <Hixie> i'm guessing there's at least one more line involved?
  825. # [23:59] <Hixie> :-)
  826. # [23:59] <Hixie> the wget line, that is :-)
  827. # [23:59] <gsnedders> And then the tar -zxf line
  828. # [23:59] <Hixie> curl ... | tar xvzf -
  829. # [23:59] <Hixie> what's the "..."?
  830. # Session Close: Wed Mar 18 00:00:00 2009

The end :)