/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 19 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-c1b0aab37b4413b8)
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  7. # [00:16] * Niictar is still trying to wrap his mind around the <video> element
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  10. # [00:17] <Niictar> I can see there are problems when an author tries to impliment his/her own fallback content
  11. # [00:18] <Niictar> But even with that, I still don't see why browsers shouldn't indicate they are having a problem rendering a video
  12. # [00:33] <olliej> There are some cool canvas demos at http://www.chromeexperiments.com -- despite warnings about only working in chrome they work fine in any recent webkit based browser (eg. Safari, Epiphany, ...)
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  16. # [00:42] <Niictar> The first two work fine in Firefox so far =(
  17. # [00:43] <annevk3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/att-0051/2009-03-18.html#topic4
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  20. # [00:54] <Niictar> olliej, do you follow the mail list?
  21. # [00:55] <olliej> Niictar: what mailing list?
  22. # [00:56] <Niictar> Sorry, the one for feedback on the HTML 5 specs. whatwg@whatwg.org to be exact
  23. # [00:56] <olliej> yeah
  24. # [00:56] <olliej> but i'm not one of the webkit video people
  25. # [00:56] <olliej> i do the canvas implementation that chrome takes credit for
  26. # [00:58] <Niictar> Ah, ok
  27. # [00:58] <Philip`> How much of their canvas implementation is specific to Skia?
  28. # [00:59] <olliej> Philip`: err, nothing?
  29. # [01:00] <olliej> Philip`: krit and I did a lot of work to make it our canvas implementation just work in terms of the standard webcore graphiccontext object
  30. # [01:00] <olliej> s/it //
  31. # [01:00] <Niictar> So your comment about "logically we should fall back if qt isn't available" is unfortunately not coming from an area of expertise about the <video> implementation
  32. # [01:01] <olliej> Niictar: no it is -- i believe in the absence of QT we should be acting like we don't support video or audio
  33. # [01:01] <olliej> so the video/audio tags sould behave as they would in any other browser than doesn't support them
  34. # [01:02] <olliej> eg. be treated as ordinary tags with no special properties
  35. # [01:02] * Philip` gets confused until realising the discussion is about QT, not Qt
  36. # [01:03] <Niictar> Should I bother to continue my arguments for something like that on the mailing list, though?
  37. # [01:03] * Niictar is unsure of the etiquet(sp?) expected
  38. # [01:04] <Niictar> etiquette*
  39. # [01:06] <olliej> Niictar: i think breaking video when QT isn't present is a webkit bug
  40. # [01:06] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-4c5b47254eedbca7)
  41. # [01:06] <olliej> Niictar: absence of fallback rules in <Video> is something i'm not at all sure about
  42. # [01:09] <Niictar> Fair enough
  43. # [01:10] <Niictar> On a side note, http://experiments.instrum3nt.com/markmahoney/ball/ is really just a little more cool than I thought it would be
  44. # [01:12] <olliej> Niictar: hehe
  45. # [01:12] <olliej> Niictar: something seems off with the movement though
  46. # [01:12] <olliej> not sure what
  47. # [01:14] <Niictar> Physics wise?
  48. # [01:20] <olliej> yeah
  49. # [01:20] <olliej> cant put my finger on it though
  50. # [01:20] <olliej> maybe t's just the ball does deform? so bounces are all perfect?
  51. # [01:21] <Niictar> Yea, the ball is pretty stiff. It might look more or less strange if it was just a solid circle, maybe
  52. # [01:22] <Niictar> I wonder what kind of _practical_ benefits this might have
  53. # [01:23] <Niictar> By pretty stiff, I do actually mean "doesn't change shape at all" :P
  54. # [01:25] * Philip` wonders why the ball can't be dragged in Opera
  55. # [01:25] <olliej> http://deanm.github.com/pre3d/colorscube.html is also cool
  56. # [01:25] <Hixie> seems to me the ball gains momentum as it bounces
  57. # [01:26] <olliej> maybe that's it
  58. # [01:26] <olliej> damn you google -- your horrible site has just consume half an hour of my life
  59. # [01:26] <olliej> weeeee
  60. # [01:28] * Niictar just made Firefox die a horrible death with the smalltalk app
  61. # [01:29] <olliej> heh
  62. # [01:30] <olliej> TM should do better than it seems to in many of these and i'm not sure why
  63. # [01:30] <olliej> Niictar: oh, firefox shipping or firefox nightly?
  64. # [01:31] <Niictar> Hum, good question. Firefox 3 beta 4?
  65. # [01:31] <olliej> 3.x or 3.0 beta?
  66. # [01:31] <olliej> please tell me 3.x
  67. # [01:32] <Niictar> 3.0.7 apparently
  68. # [01:32] <olliej> Niictar: google minefield -- the second hit should be a link to firefox nightlies
  69. # [01:33] <Philip`> Google Minefield? Are they moving into military hardware now?
  70. # [01:33] <Niictar> Besides the name being obvious, what exactly is a "nightly"
  71. # [01:33] <olliej> Philip`: i'd be worried about userfriendly minefields
  72. # [01:34] <Philip`> I'd be worried about beta minefields
  73. # [01:34] <olliej> Niictar: a build of there current development tree
  74. # [01:34] <olliej> Niictar: minefield is the mozilla equivalent of the webkit ngihtlies
  75. # [01:34] <Niictar> Found it
  76. # [01:37] <Niictar> Hrm, I had something before that was Firefox but it wasn't Firefox. Ah, it was Shiretoko. Is that sort of the same idea as Minefield?
  77. # [01:37] <olliej> err
  78. # [01:37] <olliej> not sure
  79. # [01:37] <olliej> the name rings a bell
  80. # [01:37] * olliej looks at sayrer, sicking and roc
  81. # [01:37] <Philip`> That might be more of a beta
  82. # [01:38] <Philip`> or maybe it's just branch rather than trunk
  83. # [01:38] * Philip` likes the idea of asking somebody who actually knows
  84. # [01:38] <olliej> so do i
  85. # [01:38] <olliej> but they're hiding
  86. # [01:38] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  87. # [01:38] <sayrer> Shiretoko corresponds to Firefox 3.x
  88. # [01:38] <sayrer> Minefield is tip of the trunk
  89. # [01:39] <Niictar> ! I sort of expected this one, but all my add-ons =(
  90. # [01:39] <sayrer> they happen to be pretty close atm
  91. # [01:39] <sayrer> Niictar, there is a pref to turn off the check
  92. # [01:39] <Niictar> Also, http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/3.6a1pre/whatsnew/ is the page Minefield opens up which is a 404. Clearly I'm on the bleeding edge :P
  93. # [01:40] <Niictar> Does the check just stop bugging me, or will it try to keep my addons anyway?
  94. # [01:40] <sicking> olliej, Shiretoko is the project name for the FF3.5 (formerly numbered 3.1) release
  95. # [01:40] <olliej> sicking: righto
  96. # [01:40] <sicking> olliej, minefield is the name of trunk nightly builds
  97. # [01:40] <sicking> olliej, the two are the same until we branch
  98. # [01:40] <olliej> sicking: yeah i knew minefield
  99. # [01:41] <olliej> not shiretoko
  100. # [01:41] <olliej> ah ha
  101. # [01:41] <sicking> which happened some weeks ago
  102. # [01:42] * Philip` wonders if Shiretoko comes from the same place as hobbits
  103. # [01:42] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-c1b0aab37b4413b8)
  104. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> annevk3: do you know what they're talking about at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/att-0051/2009-03-18.html#topic4 ?
  105. # [01:43] <Niictar> 3.1 must support the <video> tag, cause my page is blank, rather than defaulting to the <embed> tag inbetween :P
  106. # [01:44] <MikeSmith> annevk3: ask Sam Ruby for a RNG schema for XForms in HTML?
  107. # [01:44] <sicking> Philip`, no, that would be the shire :)
  108. # [01:44] <sicking> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiretoko_National_Park
  109. # [01:44] <Niictar> Except this is 3.6?
  110. # [01:45] <gavin> trunk is currently versioned 3.6a1pre
  111. # [01:45] <Niictar> That far ahead from the shipping?
  112. # [01:45] <gavin> that's just an arbitrary number larger than 3.5, though
  113. # [01:45] <sicking> Niictar, yes, 3.5 supports <video>, but only the ogg codec family
  114. # [01:46] <Niictar> Is 3.5 an arbitrary number higher than 3.1?
  115. # [01:46] * Niictar knows very little about this right now
  116. # [01:46] <gavin> no
  117. # [01:46] <gavin> 3.5 is the version we're going to release next
  118. # [01:46] <gavin> the plan used to be to release as 3.1
  119. # [01:46] <gavin> now the plan is to release as 3.5
  120. # [01:46] <Niictar> How did I get stuck with 3.0.x for so long? o.O
  121. # [01:47] <gavin> 3.0.x is the only currently released version
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  123. # [01:47] <sayrer> conversations like this make envy sekrit release decisions
  124. # [01:47] <sayrer> but only a little
  125. # [01:48] <Niictar> Heh
  126. # [01:49] <Niictar> Ok, so anyways, now I know I have something way ahead
  127. # [01:50] <Niictar> Sickening, you mentioned "3.5 supports <video>, but only the ogg codec family"
  128. # [01:50] <Niictar> Does that include .ogv?
  129. # [01:51] <Niictar> sicking*
  130. # [01:52] <Niictar> Cause I tried loading this <video src="http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/video/firefox.ogv" autoplay></video> in Minefield and all I get is a blank page, still
  131. # [01:53] * Niictar thinks this lack of explaination about what is wrong is going to make it very difficult to troubleshoot why a video isn't working on a client's machine
  132. # [01:53] <Niictar> Not by you guys, I'm not being impatient. But just from the browser
  133. # [01:54] <sicking> Niictar, i believe it should work yes.
  134. # [01:54] <Niictar> Then what should I do when it does not?
  135. # [01:54] <sicking> Niictar, this blog has lots of examples: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/
  136. # [01:55] <sicking> Niictar, there should also be docs on developer.mozilla.org
  137. # [01:55] <sicking> Niictar, are you sending a proper mimetype? Just a guess
  138. # [01:55] <Niictar> Maybe not?
  139. # [01:56] <Niictar> http://www.html5.ca/video.html is what I am loading
  140. # [01:56] <Niictar> Excuse the embedded flash video
  141. # [01:56] <Niictar> I'll look into those resources, though
  142. # [02:01] <Niictar> Whoa, hey. I made it work.
  143. # [02:01] <Niictar> I removed the content between <video> and </video>
  144. # [02:04] * jwalden notes that the bouncing ball demo kinda fails when the ball is released partially in more than one window in vertical space
  145. # [02:13] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279277140.dsl.bell.ca)
  146. # [02:14] <Niictar> On another note, that made no difference. However, when controls="controls" is enabled, FireFox is nice enough to show a video should exist but can't load. Safari still shows nothing
  147. # [02:14] <kinetik> Niictar: that video is being served as text/html
  148. # [02:15] <Niictar> Which?
  149. # [02:15] <kinetik> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/video/firefox.ogv
  150. # [02:15] <Niictar> Ah
  151. # [02:15] <Niictar> Anything I can do about that?
  152. # [02:15] <roc> someone should fix that
  153. # [02:15] <roc> some of those demos are cool but calling the site "Chrome Experiments" and pushing Chrome on the visitors is a bit much
  154. # [02:16] <Niictar> Since FireFox and Safari handles them well enough, too. I actually haven't tried using Chrome on any of those experiments, yet
  155. # [02:21] <sayrer> roc, I wonder how many of them are setTimeout interval experiments
  156. # [02:21] <roc> good question
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  159. # [02:38] <Hixie> jesus wept that was a ridiculously content-free thread
  160. # [02:38] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  161. # [02:38] <Hixie> seriously people
  162. # [02:38] <Hixie> USE
  163. # [02:38] <Hixie> CASES
  164. # [02:38] <Hixie> how hard can this be
  165. # [02:39] <Niictar> Hixie, which?
  166. # [02:40] <Niictar> This conversation, or somewhere else?
  167. # [02:41] <Hixie> the <time> thread
  168. # [02:41] <Hixie> i just sent a reply to it
  169. # [02:44] * Niictar risks sounding dumb here
  170. # [02:44] <Niictar> Are you sure you sent it? My inbox doesn't have it and I can't find it here: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-March/thread.html
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  173. # [02:49] <Philip`> I see it only on public-html
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  175. # [02:51] <rubys> I have no concrete suggestion, but I love the irony of "please do not cross-post" in an email that was cross-posted.
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  201. # [06:12] <Niictar> Hrm, what is WHATWG's consensus regarding microformats?
  202. # [06:12] <Niictar> It seems some people aren't fans
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  206. # [06:35] <Niictar> And FAQs are a wonderful thing
  207. # [06:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-15-27.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  209. # [06:36] * Niictar also notices that no one seems awake at 11:33pm MST
  210. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> Niictar: there's folks awake
  211. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> I think you just scared them away with that bad word you said.
  212. # [06:44] <Niictar> Ha
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  215. # [06:48] <Niictar> Well, the whatwg FAQs imply microformats are an acceptable method for effectivly creating your own elements :P
  216. # [06:48] <Niictar> But I was reading in the mailing list archives and I saw a number of people looking at HTML 5 to replace microformats or at least halt "abuses"
  217. # [06:49] <Niictar> Just in general
  218. # [06:49] <MikeSmith> Niictar: the word "microformants" was not the word I meant
  219. # [06:49] <Niictar> Oh
  220. # [06:49] <Niictar> Well, it's the only one I said since Hixie commented about the <time> feedback :P
  221. # [06:50] * Niictar shrugs
  222. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> I can't remember who advocated for replacing microformats
  223. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> Niictar: "consensus"
  224. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> the main gripes I've heard about microformats is that they are not spec'ed to the degree necessary for implementors to implement support for them interoperably
  225. # [06:53] <Niictar> Makes sense
  226. # [06:53] <MikeSmith> I think hsivonen has said he'd like to add support for some microformats to validator.nu but he's not found a spec he could use for doing that
  227. # [06:54] <Niictar> That's a tricky word: "interoperably"
  228. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
  229. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> so is "consensus"
  230. # [06:55] <Niictar> Fair enough
  231. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> the general consensus in the WHATWG is that the arguments that have the most technical merit win
  232. # [06:56] <Niictar> Which is determined by the editor in the end
  233. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> actually, if it's something that affects browser implementations, it's determined by the browser vendors in the end
  234. # [06:58] <Niictar> You know more than me
  235. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> in those cases, Hixie is sometimes brokering a decision -- trying to determine ahead of time what will be acceptable to the major implementors (the ones who are engaged in the work at least)
  236. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> Niictar: btw, you are on Mountain time?
  237. # [06:59] <Niictar> Yeaup
  238. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> Boulder?
  239. # [07:00] <Niictar> Calgary
  240. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> ah
  241. # [07:00] <Niictar> If Boulder is a city/town kind of place
  242. # [07:02] <Niictar> But speaking of time, it is late for me, so I am heading off to bed
  243. # [07:02] <Niictar> Cheers
  244. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> Niictar: 'night
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  246. # [09:15] * Disconnected
  247. # [09:15] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  248. # [09:15] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  249. # [09:15] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  250. # [09:15] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  251. # [09:23] <yecril71> Why no official DOCTYPE for XHTML?
  252. # [09:23] <hsivonen> yecril71: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/#xml
  253. # [09:24] <yecril71> The HTML validator does not validate XHTML and the XML validator needs the DOCTYPE to run.
  254. # [09:25] <yecril71> I need the DOCTYPE for validation, not for sniffing.
  255. # [09:25] <hsivonen> yecril71: no, you don't at http://html5.validator.nu/
  256. # [09:26] <yecril71> HTTP ERROR: 415
  257. # [09:26] <yecril71> application/x-www-form-urlencoded not supported. Please use multipart/form-data.
  258. # [09:27] <yecril71> Additionally, JavaScript error in line 567.
  259. # [09:27] <hsivonen> yecril71: IE?
  260. # [09:27] <yecril71> Yes.
  261. # [09:28] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  262. # [09:28] <yecril71> And <URL:http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/#xml> sends me to W3C validator, not to your one.
  263. # [09:29] <zcorpan> Hixie: "A number of attributes in HTML5 are boolean attributes" - i'd suggest s/5// or maybe even s/in HTML5//
  264. # [09:30] <hsivonen> yecril71: see the link in the next sentence
  265. # [09:30] <hsivonen> yecril71: also see the link at the end: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.sgml/msg/c3e53dee2c152a81
  266. # [09:31] <yecril71> Oh, I see.
  267. # [09:55] * Disconnected
  268. # [09:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  269. # [09:55] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  270. # [09:55] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  271. # [09:55] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  272. # [09:56] <yecril71> And where is the DTD file?
  273. # [09:58] <yecril71> xhtml11.dtd
  274. # [09:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: tough call... are you updating the text regarding ie8 now?
  275. # [09:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think I'm going to say something, but I'm deferring publishing actual detailed tables until the proper release of IE8
  276. # [10:09] <zcorpan> yecril71: the xhtml11.dtd file has (had?) a syntax error for years which will break clients that use a validating parser
  277. # [10:09] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-221-7-186.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  278. # [10:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I want to research for myself how IE8 *really* behaves. I don't trust vendor documentation.
  279. # [10:09] <hsivonen> yecril71: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/xml/content/src/xhtml11.dtd
  280. # [10:09] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-15-164.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  281. # [10:09] * zcorpan was thinking about the xhtml11.dtd file hosted at w3.org
  282. # [10:09] <yecril71> But that is just entities.
  283. # [10:09] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-227-105-165.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  284. # [10:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: how ie8 behaves wrt what?
  285. # [10:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: anything that affects layout modes
  286. # [10:09] <yecril71> MSXML needs a full DTD, not just entities.
  287. # [10:09] <yecril71> Otherwise I could define the entities inline.
  288. # [10:09] <zcorpan> yecril71: use <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
  289. # [10:09] <yecril71> (I just need a few of them)
  290. # [10:09] <yecril71> That is for XHTML 1.0 Strict, not for XHTML5.
  291. # [10:09] <zcorpan> so?
  292. # [10:09] <zcorpan> xhtml5 allows any doctype
  293. # [10:09] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  294. # [10:09] <hsivonen> yecril71: for your requirements, I suggest the following
  295. # [10:09] <yecril71> But it will not validate with unmatching DTD.
  296. # [10:09] * Joins: shepazutoo (n=schepers@adsl-221-119-243.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  297. # [10:09] <hsivonen> 1) use "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
  298. # [10:09] <hsivonen> as the public id
  299. # [10:09] <yecril71> I do not need any public ID at all.
  300. # [10:09] <hsivonen> 2) convert the whattf RELAX NG schema to DTD using trang
  301. # [10:09] <hsivonen> 3) host that one yourself
  302. # [10:09] <hsivonen> 4) use it as you system id
  303. # [10:09] <hsivonen> yecril71: you need the public id if you want entities to work in Gecko and WebKit
  304. # [10:09] <hsivonen> yecril71: blame XML Core :-)
  305. # [10:09] <yecril71> I only need it for XSLT, I do not intend to publish XHTML.
  306. # [10:09] <yecril71> Not until MSIE supports XHTML.
  307. # [10:09] * yecril71 blames XML Core.
  308. # [10:09] * yecril71 sees blaming XML Core does not help.
  309. # [10:09] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-143-120.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  310. # [10:09] * zcorpan realises that he is a member of the xml core wg
  311. # [10:09] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  312. # [10:10] * Philip` sees a fun bug comment about how certain software puts domain names inside comments, and if you have an IDN domain like www.xn--something-xyz.com then it interacts badly with SGML comment parsing rules
  313. # [10:17] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-227-105-165.rmo.bellsouth.net) (No route to host)
  314. # [10:22] <yecril71> Could these steps be listed in the HTML5 FAQ?
  315. # [10:24] <hsivonen> I think I'm going to wait on recommending the HTML5 doctype until Firefox 3.5 and IE8 ship.
  316. # [10:24] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  317. # [10:24] <zcorpan> yecril71: i think it's not actually a very frequently asked question :)
  318. # [10:25] <zcorpan> yecril71: but i'm not a gatekeeper - feel free to add it, or maybe blog on blog.whatwg.org
  319. # [10:26] * jgraham considers writing a mail filter to ignore mails with too many capital letters, decides that it would have too many false positives and, moreover, that he can't be bothered
  320. # [10:26] <yecril71> Perhaps a silly question: why a/@type and not img/@type?
  321. # [10:27] <yecril71> I thing img/@type would be more useful of the two.
  322. # [10:27] <zcorpan> <a type> is there for consistency wiht <link type>, i think
  323. # [10:27] <zcorpan> what's the use case for <img type>?
  324. # [10:28] <yecril71> So that the server can do something with images the client does not support.
  325. # [10:28] <yecril71> E.g. convert them on the fly.
  326. # [10:29] <zcorpan> doesn't Accept solve that use case?
  327. # [10:29] <yecril71> If it is not */*.
  328. # [10:29] <yecril71> So perhaps it can be labelled as a browser bug?
  329. # [10:30] <zcorpan> yeah. i don't see how type='' helps with the use case
  330. # [10:30] <zcorpan> quite the contrary - i would expect that type='image/new-fancy' would make the browser not do request the resource at all (if it looks at type='')
  331. # [10:31] <yecril71> That should not reach the browser, it should be replaced by the server.
  332. # [10:32] <zcorpan> hmm, are you saying you want to negotiate the image format when processing the request of the document that references the image?
  333. # [10:32] <zcorpan> why not do the negotation on the request for the image itself?
  334. # [10:33] <zcorpan> browsers (should?) have different Accept for document requests and image requests
  335. # [10:34] <zcorpan> in any case, type on img seems to just help you with saving a http request when you reference an image that a browser doesn't support for browsers that look at type=''
  336. # [10:35] <Philip`> Why not just use PNG and JPEG and then you don't need to worry about new fancy formats?
  337. # [10:35] <zcorpan> Philip`: maybe because a new fancy format is more fancy? :)
  338. # [10:36] <jgraham> zcorpan: Didn't save MNG
  339. # [10:36] <annevk3> ap, yeah, maybe we should just allow port scanning with XHR2
  340. # [10:36] <zcorpan> hmm opera should probably say it Accepts image/svg+xml in <img> requests
  341. # [10:37] <zcorpan> wonder if i've filed a bug about that already or not
  342. # [10:37] <yecril71> I intend to use PNG for the user agent but the source images are in a fancy (editor’s) format.
  343. # [10:37] <annevk3> zcorpan, I don't think we should, fwiw
  344. # [10:37] <yecril71> The server is responsible of converting/substituting as needed.
  345. # [10:37] <zcorpan> annevk3: why not?
  346. # [10:38] <annevk3> zcorpan, content negotiation had its chance and failed
  347. # [10:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think I've now addressed all your pending feedback on http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/
  348. # [10:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks!
  349. # [10:38] <zcorpan> yecril71: you could use data-* attributes for your needs on the server
  350. # [10:38] * zcorpan looks
  351. # [10:40] * sid0_ is now known as sid0
  352. # [10:40] <yecril71> It can be done, with DTD customized for that. Still not pretty but makes sense.
  353. # [10:41] <hsivonen> yecril71: If you prepare a DTD for your MSXML3 use case, please publish it with a permissive license (preferably MIT)
  354. # [10:42] <yecril71> Sure, but where?
  355. # [10:42] <hsivonen> on your site
  356. # [10:43] <yecril71> Would you like me to publish it anyway?
  357. # [10:44] <hsivonen> yecril71: if it addresses a use case for other MSXML users, sure
  358. # [10:44] <yecril71> I am not sure it would be easy to find on my site.
  359. # [10:46] <hsivonen> hmm. I forgot to mention Chrome on /doctype/
  360. # [10:47] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Remote closed the connection)
  361. # [10:48] <annevk3> lol, Roy is at it again
  362. # [10:48] * Joins: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  363. # [10:48] <annevk3> regarding parsing a Web adress he writes: "... sorry, this entire section is disconnected from reality. It doesn't match any of the known implementations and directly contradicts the standard."
  364. # [10:48] <annevk3> if anything is disconnected from reality it's him
  365. # [10:49] <yecril71> Besides, the rnc would be the source for DTD.
  366. # [10:49] <jgraham> Anyway, as I was saying web browsers suck.
  367. # [10:50] <yecril71> Since the rnc can change, the method to obtain the DTD is more important.
  368. # [10:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "In the XML mode, special rules for the HTML body element do not apply" - this is probably out of date when the css wg publishes css 2.1
  369. # [10:50] <jgraham> The reason for this is that, afaict, only Opera will allow me to use Linear B ideograms for my js variable names
  370. # [10:50] <jgraham> But it won't display them
  371. # [10:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is it already out of date for implementations?
  372. # [10:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
  373. # [10:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. thanks
  374. # [10:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixed
  375. # [10:53] <yecril71> jgraham: maybe a font problem?
  376. # [10:53] <jgraham> yecril71: Firefox displays them
  377. # [10:53] <yecril71> I remember IE6 is unable to display unstyled &rArr;
  378. # [10:53] <yecril71> but it displays &lArr; all right :-)
  379. # [10:54] <zcorpan> "In 2000 before Netscape 6 was released, Mozilla actually had parser modes that enforced HTML syntax rules." - i remember a few years ago i tried to find such a build and test it but failed
  380. # [10:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think http://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/m18/ might contain a build that has it
  381. # [10:57] <hsivonen> or http://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/m17/
  382. # [11:01] <roc> show some respect for the dead
  383. # [11:01] <zcorpan> no way!
  384. # [11:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Please be sure to test your image alignment in Firefox, Safari, Chrome or Opera 10." - hmm, why the "10" there? :)
  385. # [11:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  386. # [11:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: because of the mode switching regressions in 9.5 and 9.6.
  387. # [11:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I suppose that's not necessary, though
  388. # [11:04] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-36b62f99fbb0bb63)
  389. # [11:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: since the regressions didn't affect that doctype
  390. # [11:04] <zcorpan> ah
  391. # [11:04] <zcorpan> right
  392. # [11:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixed
  393. # [11:05] <hsivonen> when IE8 ships, I think I'm going to have to add a whole another table of flowchart for it...
  394. # [11:06] <zcorpan> yeah ie8 mode switching is *crazy*
  395. # [11:07] <hsivonen> yeah, I just wrote "The choice of mode depends on data from various sources: doctype, a meta element, an HTTP header, periodically downloaded data from Microsoft, the intranet zone, settings made by the user, settings made by an intranet administrator and a UI button togglable by the user." and realized I wasn't joking
  396. # [11:08] <Philip`> It also depends on the application that embeds the HTML rendering control
  397. # [11:08] <roc> it's hard to forsee any outcome but disaster
  398. # [11:08] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/10/more-ie8-extensibility-improvements.aspx
  399. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. noted
  400. # [11:11] <yecril71> Philip`: e.g., mshta treats <!--[if IE]> as a comment :-)
  401. # [11:13] <annevk3> Hixie, I usually have a snack &lt;time>16:00&lt;/time> is missing the word "at"
  402. # [11:21] <zcorpan> Philip`: if you feel like it could you at some point conjure forth a list of text/html pages that contain the string "<![CDATA["? :)
  403. # [11:22] <zcorpan> maybe case-insensitively
  404. # [11:24] <Philip`> zcorpan: There's zillions, mostly in <script>s and <style>s
  405. # [11:24] <Philip`> I guess those aren't what you want?
  406. # [11:26] <zcorpan> hmm... maybe skip those that are preceded by // or /*
  407. # [11:30] <Philip`> That still gives a load of false positives with stuff like <!-- <![CDATA[
  408. # [11:31] <zcorpan> maybe skip those that have // or /* or <!-- before them on the same line?
  409. # [11:32] <Philip`> Might it be more interesting to look for things that get tokenised into comment nodes with data "[cdata[..."?
  410. # [11:33] <zcorpan> for the proposal to support cdata sections in pcdata, yes
  411. # [11:34] <hsivonen> Do scripts depend on partial text node being present in the DOM immediately after document.write if a document.write writes some text without any other token after?
  412. # [11:34] <annevk3> i think you want all the stuff to see if it is possible to do cdata sections in cdata even for HTML
  413. # [11:34] <zcorpan> but i'd like to evaluate jonas' proposal for stripping "<![CDATA[" in cdata elements, too
  414. # [11:34] <Philip`> Are you interested in people writing <script type="text/javascript"><![CDATA[ etc?
  415. # [11:34] <Philip`> (http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_testing.html)
  416. # [11:34] <annevk3> hsivonen, partial text node?
  417. # [11:34] <hsivonen> document.write("<div id=foo>bar"); alert(document.gEBI("foo").textContent);
  418. # [11:35] <annevk3> does it work in browsers?
  419. # [11:35] <hsivonen> let's find out...
  420. # [11:35] <zcorpan> Philip`: yes or if (e.responseText.contains('<![CDATA[')) etc
  421. # [11:35] <annevk3> per spec it should work afaict
  422. # [11:37] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-167-39.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  423. # [11:38] <hsivonen> annevk3: alerts bar in Firefox 3 but empty string in Safari and Opera
  424. # [11:39] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/cdata-not-preceded-by-a-comment-thing.txt ?
  425. # [11:39] <olliej> hsivonen: i'm not sure we support textContent
  426. # [11:39] <hsivonen> olliej: you do
  427. # [11:39] <olliej> hsivonen: can you try innerText?
  428. # [11:39] <hsivonen> olliej: just tried innerHTML
  429. # [11:39] <olliej> hsivonen: did that work?
  430. # [11:39] <hsivonen> IE8 mode says bar with innerHTML
  431. # [11:40] <hsivonen> olliej: bar in Firefox and IE8, empty string in Opera and Safari
  432. # [11:40] <olliej> hsivonen: you want to file a bug don't you? :D
  433. # [11:40] <hsivonen> I'm going to email public-html and ask we try to adopt the Opera/Safari behavior in the spec
  434. # [11:40] <olliej> hsivonen: \o/
  435. # [11:41] * olliej bets there is some website, somewhere that depends on the ie/ffx behaviour
  436. # [11:41] <Philip`> If there isn't, you could write one, and then there would be
  437. # [11:41] <hsivonen> doing it the IE/Firefox way would suck for the off the main thread HTML5 parsing effort
  438. # [11:42] <Philip`> so you could use that argument as evidence for design decision at all :-)
  439. # [11:42] <Philip`> *any design decision
  440. # [11:42] <olliej> hsivonen: document.write("<script>alert('foo')</script>") i think makes that hard
  441. # [11:42] <hsivonen> olliej: that needs to be tokenized on the main thread anyway
  442. # [11:43] * jgraham notes that there seem to be a few Opera site-compat. bugs related to CDATA sections
  443. # [11:43] <hsivonen> olliej: what I don't like is joining main thread and off-the-main-thread text nodes
  444. # [11:43] * Philip` has experienced one of those bugs in Opera, on some Microsoft site
  445. # [11:43] <pesla> http://www.dzone.com/links/transforming_the_button_element_with_sliding_door.html
  446. # [11:43] <pesla> fuck, c/p failure
  447. # [11:43] * hsivonen goes to lunch before emailing the list
  448. # [11:43] * pesla gets some coffee
  449. # [11:48] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-36b62f99fbb0bb63) ("Leaving")
  450. # [11:52] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s55927ef8.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  451. # [11:59] <ap> hsivonen: re partial content - WebKit has a related bug https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8961 - so maybe our behavior is not the best here, for a change
  452. # [12:03] * jgraham notes Lachy failed to not cross post
  453. # [12:03] <Lachy> jgraham, I didn't know which list I should pick
  454. # [12:04] <zcorpan> flip a coin
  455. # [12:04] <zcorpan> or do what chaals says and post to public-html
  456. # [12:05] <Lachy> but then the people on whatwg only miss out
  457. # [12:05] <Philip`> I think they would be glad to miss out on continued discussion of <time>
  458. # [12:05] <annevk3> I know I would :)
  459. # [12:06] <jgraham> Lachy: Your message wasn't that good ;)
  460. # [12:06] <Lachy> thanks
  461. # [12:08] <Philip`> Anybody who isn't already subscribed to both lists isn't worth worrying about :-)
  462. # [12:09] <Philip`> Clearly they lack the necessary dedication to the cause
  463. # [12:09] * karlcow has not been reading the time thread at all, and will not. choose your battles ;)
  464. # [12:10] <karlcow> that said time to move to work
  465. # [12:10] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  466. # [12:12] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  467. # [12:16] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host86-133-17-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  468. # [12:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: why does article, nav, etc have 1em top and bottom margin?
  469. # [12:23] * annevk3 thinks it makes sense
  470. # [12:23] * zcorpan points at topic
  471. # [12:24] <zcorpan> i think authors expect them to have the same default styling as div
  472. # [12:25] <zcorpan> though maybe the default margin is nice and we should push for it
  473. # [12:25] <annevk3> that'd be boring
  474. # [12:26] <annevk3> i actually think nested sections should have a left / right margin as well depending on LTR/LTR
  475. # [12:26] <annevk3> RTL
  476. # [12:26] <jgraham> annevk3: Not convinced.
  477. # [12:27] <jgraham> E.g. LaTeX doesn't do that
  478. # [12:27] <annevk3> and nobody would want that
  479. # [12:27] <annevk3> but still
  480. # [12:27] <zcorpan> why would you have something by default that nobody wants?
  481. # [12:28] <jgraham> The only reason would be if it gave a higher percentage of correct usage
  482. # [12:28] <zcorpan> c.f. <img border=0
  483. # [12:28] * zcorpan expects a higher percentage of * { margin:0 } usage
  484. # [12:29] <zcorpan> i expect most authors will take their div based layout, change to new elements and update their selectors, and expect it to work
  485. # [12:30] <annevk3> I don't think that would give the right result
  486. # [12:30] <zcorpan> ...because?
  487. # [12:31] <annevk3> because I don't think there's a straight mapping
  488. # [12:31] <jgraham> Indeed. The problem with <section> (which BenMillard thinks will be fatal) is that you really want people to only use it for things that would get a new subheading
  489. # [12:31] <hsivonen> ap: that bug seems to be a different scenario
  490. # [12:32] <jgraham> It totally sucks that there is no serious proposal for a ::outline-depth selector
  491. # [12:32] <ap> hsivonen: yes, I said it was related, not the same
  492. # [12:32] <annevk3> Ben might very well be right
  493. # [12:32] * annevk3 is sceptical too
  494. # [12:32] <jgraham> The thing is, if we can make it work, it will solve a lot of problems
  495. # [12:32] <zcorpan> it also sucks that there's no easy way yet to evaluate that you got it right
  496. # [12:32] <jgraham> But I think it needs coordination with the CSS WG
  497. # [12:33] <zcorpan> or an experimental implementation and a proposal draft
  498. # [12:33] <jgraham> zcorpan: I was going to say that :)
  499. # [12:33] <jgraham> CSS still seems rather dysfunctional
  500. # [12:34] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-33e3afa828aecd7b)
  501. # [12:34] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-80-126.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  502. # [12:34] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  503. # [12:37] <jgraham> Also, validator.nu could show the document outline tree by default
  504. # [12:45] <hsivonen> parsing would be soooo much nicer without document.write...
  505. # [12:46] <beowulf> i expect when authors change div based layouts to new elements the difference between article and section will be lost, but i'm speaking for the dumb html authors
  506. # [12:49] <Philip`> <section> is just a semantic <div>
  507. # [12:49] <Philip`> It doesn't matter what the semantics are, it just matters that it has semantics
  508. # [12:50] <hsivonen> mmm semantics!
  509. # [12:50] * jgraham wonders if Philip` is talking about how it will be percieved
  510. # [12:51] <beowulf> it'll be perceived as a replacement for div, not a variation, i think
  511. # [12:53] * hsivonen expects elaborate articles to be written about the virtues of <section> compared to <div> and another set of articles to be written refuting the first set of articles
  512. # [12:53] * jgraham was going to start on the second sort of article now to get ahead of the game
  513. # [12:53] <Philip`> jgraham: What would matter other than how it is perceived?
  514. # [12:54] <jgraham> Philip`: Your personal opinion
  515. # [12:54] <beowulf> can i coin the phrase 'section soup' now or is that already taken?
  516. # [12:54] * beowulf leaves 'article soup' for somebody else
  517. # [12:55] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  518. # [12:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: looks good
  519. # [12:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: /doctype/ ?
  520. # [12:58] <zcorpan> yeah
  521. # [12:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  522. # [12:59] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  523. # [13:16] <zcorpan> Lachy: isn't it "mars"?
  524. # [13:22] * Philip` wishes the alt text in hsivonen's <img alt="In a nutshell: "> was accessible to him, since he couldn't figure out what the image meant
  525. # [13:26] <Lachy> zcorpan, isn't that what I said?
  526. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: case-sensitivity
  527. # [13:28] <Lachy> what difference does that make?
  528. # [13:28] <Lachy> it's the same word
  529. # [13:28] <Lachy> but it's a proper noun, so i capitalised it
  530. # [13:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: it's a month name, so it's in lower case
  531. # [13:29] <Lachy> is that some strange Norwegian grammar rule?
  532. # [13:30] <hsivonen> Lachy: English is the exception that capitalizes months and weekdays
  533. # [13:30] <Lachy> oh, ok
  534. # [13:30] <virtuelv> hsivonen: and german, no
  535. # [13:30] <hsivonen> virtuelv: I suppose, but that's a more general capitalization-happiness thing :-)
  536. # [13:31] <Lachy> so is the capitalisation how Norwegians tell the difference between mars (month name) and Mars (planet)?
  537. # [13:31] <yecril71> How does having img border=0 improve validity in the wild?
  538. # [13:32] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  539. # [13:32] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-50-134.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  540. # [13:33] <Lachy> yecril71, because it's common for border=0 to be included in copy-pasteable fragments (e.g. for badges), designed for authors to include in their own pages.
  541. # [13:34] <virtuelv> Lachy: note that many Norwegians also pronounce the two slightly differently
  542. # [13:34] <virtuelv> "mars" vs "maars"
  543. # [13:35] <Lachy> virtuelv, are you using the "aa" to mean a long aaah sound, or the sound of the norweign letter å?
  544. # [13:35] <jgraham> Wordpress sucks
  545. # [13:35] <jgraham> Film at 11
  546. # [13:35] <virtuelv> Lachy: long a
  547. # [13:36] <Lachy> ok, I'm unsure how you can pronounce a longer version of "mars"
  548. # [13:36] <Lachy> but then, I'm also unsure of a lot of norweign pronunciations
  549. # [13:37] * jgraham notices he failed to close a section
  550. # [13:41] * zcorpan wonders whether xml-stylesheet uses Web URLs handling in browsers
  551. # [13:41] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  552. # [13:42] <annevk3> zcorpan, I hope it does
  553. # [13:42] * zcorpan sees a general movement from "Foo5" to "Web Foo" in naming of specs
  554. # [13:42] <annevk3> zcorpan, most of XML does too
  555. # [13:43] <Philip`> WHATWG = Web W3C
  556. # [13:44] <zcorpan> should html5 be renamed to Web HTML?
  557. # [13:45] <Philip`> We should rename the WWW to Web WWW
  558. # [13:45] <Philip`> and abbreviate it as WW
  559. # [13:45] <annevk3> zcorpan, WML was once proposed
  560. # [13:45] <jgraham> Can be rename the internet to the Web Internet?
  561. # [13:46] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-33e3afa828aecd7b) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  562. # [13:46] <zcorpan> the Web Web?
  563. # [13:46] <Lachy> Philip`, that would mean "Web World Wide Web"
  564. # [13:47] * jgraham guesses Philip` Is aware of the expansion of WWW
  565. # [13:50] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s55927ef8.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  566. # [13:54] <hsivonen> Does anyone know what XiphQT does with keyframes if I uncheck the box? will every frame become a keyframe? will it figure out keyframe insertion itself?
  567. # [13:56] <Philip`> Wow, I can paste stuff from OO Calc into Google Docs and it actually works
  568. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: which OS and browser?
  569. # [13:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: Linux, Opera
  570. # [13:58] <Philip`> Well, it doesn't preserve any formatting or anything, but it's copied the grid of strings properly
  571. # [13:58] <yecril71> And "img border=0" is more valid than what?
  572. # [13:58] * zcorpan fires up M17
  573. # [13:59] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@pD95794B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  574. # [14:00] <zcorpan> the live dom viewer doesn't work :(
  575. # [14:00] <zcorpan> "iframe.contentWindow has no properties"
  576. # [14:02] <zcorpan> yes i made it work
  577. # [14:02] <zcorpan> javascript:alert(iframe.contentWindow = frames[0])
  578. # [14:03] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  579. # [14:03] <zcorpan> oops now it crashed
  580. # [14:03] <Philip`> zcorpan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi
  581. # [14:05] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.77.191) (Remote closed the connection)
  582. # [14:06] * zcorpan tests <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><title <foo/bar>
  583. # [14:07] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Remote closed the connection)
  584. # [14:07] <zcorpan> i get an attribute "<foo/bar" on HEAD
  585. # [14:08] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
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  587. # [14:09] * zcorpan tests <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><body>test</body>
  588. # [14:09] <zcorpan> the body has no children
  589. # [14:10] * zcorpan tests <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p>x<p>x
  590. # [14:10] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  591. # [14:10] <zcorpan> the Ps are nested!
  592. # [14:11] * Joins: harig (n=opera@59.90.71.35)
  593. # [14:12] <zcorpan> <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p><b><p>x - the second P is ignored
  594. # [14:13] <zcorpan> <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p><asdf>test - P is empty
  595. # [14:13] <zcorpan> <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p><font>test - is inserted
  596. # [14:13] <zcorpan> marquee and blink are not
  597. # [14:14] <zcorpan> <plaintext> is ignored
  598. # [14:14] <zcorpan> but <isindex> is inserted (though doesn't render)
  599. # [14:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: try putting an <img> as a child of body with strict doctype. it's very confusing
  600. # [14:16] <hsivonen> oh, you already tested <body>test</body>
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  602. # [14:16] <zcorpan> <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p><b>foo<i>bar</b>baz - the </b> is ignored
  603. # [14:17] <zcorpan> <link> and <title> tags in body are ignored
  604. # [14:18] <zcorpan> i.e. <p><title>x</title> and <p>x are equivalent
  605. # [14:19] <zcorpan> <embed> is ignored
  606. # [14:20] <zcorpan> <image> is ignored
  607. # [14:21] <zcorpan> <p ""> creates an attribute with no name
  608. # [14:22] * hsivonen finds http://twitter.com/johnfoliot
  609. # [14:23] <zcorpan> it seems to insert a doctype even if there was no doctype in the source
  610. # [14:24] * Joins: olliej_ (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  611. # [14:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that might be for the benefit of Composer. Or something like that.
  612. # [14:24] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-fddf159b79fe74b9)
  613. # [14:25] <zcorpan> &AMP is supported
  614. # [14:25] * zcorpan turns to the spec to find more things to test
  615. # [14:26] <zcorpan> framesets are supported
  616. # [14:27] <zcorpan> noembed and its contents are not inserted. it's not parsed as cdata
  617. # [14:27] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  618. # [14:27] <zcorpan> comments are not inserted
  619. # [14:27] <zcorpan> oops crashed again
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  621. # [14:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: consider having a shorter url to the live dom viewer
  622. # [14:28] <zcorpan> e.g. livedom.hixie.ch
  623. # [14:30] * jgraham always thinks for a moment it is at livedom.hixie.ch before remembering it is not
  624. # [14:31] <zcorpan> sgml style comments are supported
  625. # [14:32] <zcorpan> whey a lone <table> inserts tbody, tr, td
  626. # [14:32] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-fddf159b79fe74b9) ("Leaving")
  627. # [14:32] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  628. # [14:34] <zcorpan> table parsing seems weird
  629. # [14:36] <zcorpan> seems to basically always ignore unexpected end tags
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  631. # [14:38] <zcorpan> attributes on stray <html> is ignored but on stray <body> is used
  632. # [14:39] <zcorpan> </h2> doesn't close a h1
  633. # [14:41] <zcorpan> document.write doesn't seem to be supported at all
  634. # [14:41] <zcorpan> which is weird
  635. # [14:42] <zcorpan> oh wait it is supported
  636. # [14:42] <zcorpan> if the script is in head
  637. # [14:43] <zcorpan> <!DOCTYPE html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0//en"><script>document.write('<di');</script>v> works
  638. # [14:44] <zcorpan> but <!DOCTYPE html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0//en"><body><script>document.write('<di');</script>v> does not
  639. # [14:48] <hsivonen> regarding http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0115.html isn't unilateral vocabulary creation without consulting with the community a behavior that RDF distributed extensibility is designed for?
  640. # [14:53] * zcorpan is now satisfied and lets M17 return to its grave
  641. # [15:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: That was roughly what I thought
  642. # [15:12] <hsivonen> aaargh: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/generic/nsObjectFrame.cpp#3157
  643. # [15:16] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  644. # [15:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ugh
  645. # [15:22] <Philip`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234675#c24 - a grep suggests there are indeed quite a few sites setting scale after salign
  646. # [15:22] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  647. # [15:22] <Philip`> though I don't know how many of those pages would break if you changed the order
  648. # [15:23] <hsivonen> I wonder if this list needs amending for HTML5: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/nsCSSParser.cpp#2916
  649. # [15:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: there's a note in the spec about that already
  650. # [15:25] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i've researched that and sent comments to the list before
  651. # [15:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: CSS or plugins?
  652. # [15:25] <zcorpan> css
  653. # [15:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0043.html
  654. # [15:28] <annevk3> zcorpan, why are you testing that UA?
  655. # [15:29] <zcorpan> annevk3: because hsivonen's doctype article made me curious
  656. # [15:29] <zcorpan> "In 2000 before Netscape 6 was released, Mozilla actually had parser modes that enforced HTML syntax rules."
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  669. # [16:04] <hsivonen> do other browsers have this behavior: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLStyleElement.cpp#322
  670. # [16:05] <hsivonen> ?
  671. # [16:10] <annevk3> IE5 for the Mac
  672. # [16:10] <annevk3> iirc
  673. # [16:11] <hsivonen> I feel I should file a bug *somewhere* about that
  674. # [16:11] <hsivonen> either a mozilla bug about the HTML/XHTML inconsistency, a spec bug about getting the behavior specced or a mozilla bug for removing the behavior
  675. # [16:11] <annevk3> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%20src%3Dstyle%3Ep%20{%20background%3Alime%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cp%3Exxxxx
  676. # [16:11] <annevk3> it doesn't even work in HTML
  677. # [16:12] <annevk3> you should probably remove the behavior
  678. # [16:12] <annevk3> (the src attribute does affect HTML)
  679. # [16:12] <annevk3> (it makes the inline styles not apply)
  680. # [16:14] <annevk3> oh wow, that code is seriously buggy
  681. # [16:14] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-e11f9b9b1168a82b)
  682. # [16:14] <annevk3> you need a src attribute to trigger the non-inline behavior but you need a href attribute to actually load the style sheet
  683. # [16:14] <annevk3> whoever wrote that was on crack
  684. # [16:15] <annevk3> hsivonen, ^^
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  690. # [16:29] <annevk3> "Daniel Glazman <glazman@netscape.com>"
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  692. # [16:32] <hsivonen> annevk3: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=484200 filed. Thanks.
  693. # [16:37] <annevk3> hsivonen, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/36 is the funny bit
  694. # [16:39] <hsivonen> annevk3: thanks
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  708. # [17:20] <annevk3> what's our April 1 joke?
  709. # [17:20] <annevk3> anouncement of Web 5.0?
  710. # [17:20] <annevk3> announcement*
  711. # [17:20] * Quits: Niictar (n=ritz@S010600183f550ae0.cg.shawcable.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  712. # [17:21] <annevk3> maybe this should be disucssed in our super secret tree house instead so nobody will know
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  714. # [17:25] <jgraham> Douglas Crockford appointed new editor of the HTML 5 spec
  715. # [17:26] <Dashiva> RDFa-in-HTML replaced with HTML-in-RDF
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  722. # [17:43] <Lachy> annevk3, you'll find out on April 1
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  724. # [17:47] <annevk3> jgraham, Dashiva, that's great
  725. # [17:47] <annevk3> we should do several :)
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  728. # [17:51] <Philip`> Fun on Mozilla #developers: bz links to a test case hosted on his site at web.mit.edu/bzbarsky; someone runs it in IE8 and it mysteriously fails to support generated content; and that's because mit.edu (hence all subdomains) is on IE8's Compatibility View List
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  789. # [20:49] <Philip`> http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/wikirank-zeitgeist-wikipedia.html - "the charts were built without Flash. It's all Javascript using the HTML Canvas element"
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  808. # [21:47] * gsnedders leaps
  809. # [21:51] * gsnedders has 1337 unread emails
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  815. # [22:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: You have attained a state of perfection, and should disconnect your email system from the internet to preserve the current situation
  816. # [22:05] <Dashiva> In my younger days, I once mothballed a forum account upon attaining 1337 posts.
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  824. # [22:53] <jorlow> whoa....when did structured client side storage get removed from html5...and why?
  825. # [22:53] <Hixie> it has its own spec now
  826. # [22:53] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/
  827. # [22:54] <Dashiva> r2877 - [] (0) Extract Web Sockets, Event Source, and Web Storage out of HTML5.
  828. # [22:55] <jorlow> gotcha
  829. # [22:55] <jorlow> thanks
  830. # [22:55] <Hixie> np
  831. # [22:59] <annevk3> http://twitter.com/ilinsky/status/1356530332 sigh
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  833. # [23:02] * Parts: billmason (n=bmason@69.30.57.90)
  834. # [23:05] * Hixie writes his annual status report
  835. # [23:06] <Hixie> other than edits to the spec, anyone remember anything substantial i did over the last year?
  836. # [23:06] <Dashiva> Destroy RDFa?
  837. # [23:07] <Hixie> good to know
  838. # [23:11] <annevk3> ate a kitten?
  839. # [23:12] <annevk3> I guess the annotation script was the year before last year
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  841. # [23:14] <annevk3> It's funny how ap is noting the same silly stuff about CORS that the Mozilla security folks insisted on
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  849. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: You wrote some stuff, you split some stuff out?
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  852. # [23:30] <Philip`> You have striven to increase stakeholder value
  853. # [23:32] <Dashiva> I'm pretty sure I've seen Hixie send emails to groups that aren't public-html too
  854. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: You exclaimed joy at your cat returning after ten days.
  855. # [23:33] <Hixie> 21 days!
  856. # [23:33] <Hixie> not ten!
  857. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Oh, sorry.
  858. # [23:33] * gsnedders forgot
  859. # [23:34] <Hixie> she was gone three weeks!
  860. # [23:34] <Hixie> and lost a leg for her efforts
  861. # [23:34] <Hixie> ironically of our two cats she is still the one who goes out all the time
  862. # [23:34] <gsnedders> How is she since?
  863. # [23:34] <Hixie> she's doing awesome
  864. # [23:34] <Hixie> hedral is basically an indoor cat, he barely goes out. she goes out all the time.
  865. # [23:34] <Hixie> she's so far brought home a small bird, a crow that was bigger than she was, and a live salamander
  866. # [23:35] <Hixie> all while on three legs
  867. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Not bad for 3/4 of a cat
  868. # [23:35] <Hixie> btw if anyone is bored, they should help me find out who tgbyhn is on reddit
  869. # [23:35] <Dashiva> Does she complain about lack of accessible prey?
  870. # [23:35] <gsnedders> (Yes, I know there are more to cats than four legs)
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  872. # [23:36] <Philip`> tgbyhn must be somebody who uses a QWERTY keyboard
  873. # [23:36] <Hixie> Dashiva: i found her once up a tree which was shaped like a Y -- she had one front leg planted on one trunk of the Y, the other front leg planted on the other trunk, and her back leg swinging freely just above the bend in the Y, looking down and meowing in concern
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  875. # [23:36] <Hixie> it was pretty funny
  876. # [23:37] <gsnedders> Your cats are ridiculous.
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  878. # [23:43] <Dashiva> My cat would just run up a fir tree and get stuck
  879. # [23:43] <Dashiva> Then it would run down anyway when the crows started attacking it
  880. # [23:51] <jwalden> meow I did not just say meow
  881. # [23:51] * gsnedders ends damowmow after jwalden
  882. # [23:51] <gsnedders> *sends
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  885. # [23:57] <Hixie> Dashiva: same three legged kitty climbed up our bathrobes up to the top of our bedroom door the other day. once up there she was like "huh. there's nothing here but a smoke alarm. how boring. now how do i get down. uh."
  886. # [23:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: Also, how do your cats managed to be thanked for all their useful input in the spec?
  887. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Or rather, for their ideas?
  888. # [23:59] <Hixie> same way anyone else does
  889. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: What did they do that caused the spec to be changeD?
  890. # [23:59] <gsnedders> *changed
  891. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Typed on your laptop, again?
  892. # Session Close: Fri Mar 20 00:00:00 2009

The end :)