/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 20 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Philip`> If they directly contributed words to the spec, I hope you got them to sign for the copyright ownership transfer
  4. # [00:02] <Dashiva> Do cats have copyright rights?
  5. # [00:02] <Dashiva> Or is it public domain if they create something?
  6. # [00:03] <Philip`> About scripts: It would be nice if typing the script's URL into your address bar resulted in the same character decoding as when you execute the script, and (for compatibility with current content) in the first situation it has to respect the HTTP charset
  7. # [00:04] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
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  9. # [00:08] <Hixie> i think legally speaking i own them
  10. # [00:08] <Hixie> so i should be covered copyright-wise
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  12. # [00:10] <Philip`> That's slavery!
  13. # [00:14] <Hixie> i didn't say it was right!
  14. # [00:15] <Dashiva> He works for a company which uses mass pidgeon slave labor, what did you expect?
  15. # [00:15] <Hixie> oh hey, today marks the day where the most recent releases of all major browsers all support Acid2
  16. # [00:16] <Dashiva> Acid1 too? :)
  17. # [00:18] <Hixie> acid1 was supported by everyone before acid2 came out
  18. # [00:24] <gsnedders> But is it still supported?
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  21. # [00:28] <Hixie> yes
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  31. # [01:03] <ojan> Hixie: ping
  32. # [01:03] <Hixie> hey
  33. # [01:04] <Hixie> ojan: pong
  34. # [01:04] <ojan> Hixie: have you seen this (long) discussion on #webkit re: scrollHeight
  35. # [01:04] <ojan> ?
  36. # [01:04] <Hixie> i have not
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  38. # [01:05] <ojan> the conclusion is essentially to add a contentHeight/Width (or desiredHeight/Width) to textareas and inputs
  39. # [01:05] <ojan> that would go in html5, right?
  40. # [01:06] * ojan is trying to figure out next steps for this discussion
  41. # [01:06] <Hixie> it would go in annevk3's CSSOM spec
  42. # [01:06] <Hixie> it's probably already there in fact
  43. # [01:07] <ojan> Hixie: even though it's only on textareas?
  44. # [01:07] <ojan> Hixie: this is for the height/width of the content of the textarea/input
  45. # [01:07] <annevk3> Hixie, it's not
  46. # [01:08] <Hixie> media-specific stuff and presentational stuff generally doesn't belong in html itself
  47. # [01:08] <annevk3> Hixie, and since it's specific to <textarea>/<input> i'd sort of like it to be in HTML5; just like <img>.height/width
  48. # [01:08] <Hixie> why would it be specific to textarea or input?
  49. # [01:08] <annevk3> the only use case is for those elements
  50. # [01:09] <ojan> Hixie: textarea/input are the only elements that get user-inserted content whose dimensions are not visible to a web-developer
  51. # [01:09] <ojan> Hixie: the use case in question is making a textarea/input that sizes to it's content
  52. # [01:10] <Hixie> ojan: wouldn't height:intrinsic just do that automatically?
  53. # [01:10] <Hixie> and width:intrinsic for the single-line case
  54. # [01:12] <ojan> Hixie: where is height/width:intrinsic specced?
  55. # [01:13] <annevk3> http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/
  56. # [01:13] <annevk3> though it's not called intrinsic
  57. # [01:13] <annevk3> and it doesn't work in Mozilla which has implemented those properties
  58. # [01:13] <annevk3> solving this through CSS does seem better though
  59. # [01:14] <ojan> yeah, definitely for this use-case
  60. # [01:14] <ojan> and i can't think of other use-cases for knowing the size of a textarea/input's content
  61. # [01:15] <annevk3> anyway, bedtime
  62. # [01:15] <annevk3> nn
  63. # [01:16] <ojan> annevk3: thanks for your feedback.
  64. # [01:19] <ojan> Hixie: technically, the intrinsic width algorithms don't work on textareas/inputs because they look at the child blocks of a node
  65. # [01:20] <ojan> Hixie: which textareas/inputs don't have
  66. # [01:20] <john_fallows> Hixie: the SSE spec still references eventsource element in the Notes section
  67. # [01:21] <ojan> Hixie: nm. it would get the widht of the textnode inside the textarea
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  69. # [01:26] <ojan> Hixie: does anyone implement height/width:intrinsic?
  70. # [01:27] <Hixie> ojan: textareas don't have text nodes (per specs, anyway), they are replaced elements with intrinsic dimensions
  71. # [01:27] <Hixie> ojan: no idea, don't think so
  72. # [01:27] <Hixie> john_fallows: oops
  73. # [01:30] <Hixie> ojan: i gotta say, the idea of text fields that grow as i type seems bad from a ui perspective
  74. # [01:36] <Philip`> I wrote a thing to let people edit numbers in a matrix, and used a table of <span contenteditable>s so that each column would automatically grow to fit the text you enter
  75. # [01:37] <Philip`> If I could use <input> and have it automatically grow then that'd be nicer
  76. # [01:39] <Hixie> that's plausible i guess
  77. # [01:39] <Hixie> defintely a css problem though
  78. # [01:40] <ojan> Hixie: gmail chat has this. textareas with a min-height of 36px, and a max-height of 80px
  79. # [01:40] <Hixie> yeah, it's fucking annoying
  80. # [01:40] <ojan> Hixie: that then grow with their content to 80px and then get a scrollbar
  81. # [01:40] <Hixie> i always end up mistyping, moving my caret to the wrong place, deleting stuff i wasn't expecting, all kinds of crap like that
  82. # [01:41] <ojan> Hixie: i'm much more annoyed at sites that just leave you stuck with small textareas
  83. # [01:41] <Hixie> that's why webkit's resize text areas thing is fine :-)
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  85. # [01:42] <ojan> Hixie: on a somewhat related note, what do you think of height/width:intrinsic on iframes?
  86. # [01:43] <Hixie> has to be same-origin, but i think it's a good idea. <iframe seamless> relies on it.
  87. # [01:44] <ojan> Hixie: why does it have to be same-origin?
  88. # [01:44] <ojan> does leaking the height/width of the iframe really affect security?
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  92. # [01:48] <Hixie> ojan: there are (mostly theoretical) concerns that it could, yeah.
  93. # [01:49] <Hixie> ojan: e.g. you could determine if someone is logged in to google or not pretty easily
  94. # [01:49] <ojan> Hixie: like what?
  95. # [01:50] <ojan> Hixie: I ask because one of the primary use cases I can think of is cross-domain
  96. # [01:50] <Hixie> or you might be able to work out someone's bank balance to an order of magnitude
  97. # [01:50] <Hixie> roc was the main one to originally bring up this concern
  98. # [01:52] <ojan> seems like a stretch to me.
  99. # [01:53] <ojan> Hixie: there are things that you can't do with height/width: intrinsic that you could if you had the contentWidth/Height
  100. # [01:54] <ojan> Hixie: i'm not sure they're real use cases though
  101. # [01:54] <ojan> Hixie: e.g. you have an app that has a textarea that fills most of the page, but you want a different background color behind the text
  102. # [01:55] <Hixie> again, that's stylistic
  103. # [01:55] <ojan> Hixie: you can't simulate that correctly with a textarea inside a div
  104. # [01:55] <Hixie> i'm all for presentational things, but they belong in css, cssom, and xbl; not html
  105. # [01:55] <ojan> Hixie: so you're saying that there could be a pseudo-element or something that represents the block inside the textarea?
  106. # [01:55] <Hixie> yeah, or xbl could be used to "reconstruct" the textarea out of contentEditable bits or some such
  107. # [01:56] <Hixie> or we could have a textarea syntax highlighting api
  108. # [01:56] <ojan> yeah...i guess there's a future world in which you could get an element that behaved like a textarea, but was actually a contentEditable div
  109. # [01:56] <ojan> that would be better anyways.
  110. # [01:57] <ojan> we're not too far from that now.
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  114. # [02:10] <roc> ojan: leaking information through the sizes of pages may be a bit far fetched ... or maybe not. You could almost certainly use it to check for the existence of pages cross-domain
  115. # [02:10] <ojan> roc: that's true.
  116. # [02:10] <roc> basically, people have come up with all kinds of crazy exploits for the cross-domain information channels we currently have to support
  117. # [02:10] <roc> we're reluctant to add more such channels
  118. # [02:10] <ojan> roc: i'm just thinking of the crazy hackery things like google gadgets do to get cross-domain iframes to size to their content
  119. # [02:11] <ojan> roc: that's reasonable.
  120. # [02:11] <roc> just on the basis of "hmm, *I* can't think of a way to exploit this, right now"
  121. # [02:11] <ojan> roc: i buy that argument.
  122. # [02:11] <ojan> roc: it's just disappointing.
  123. # [02:11] <roc> pages should be able to opt into exposing this information
  124. # [02:12] <roc> they sort of already can using postMessage, but it's a pain
  125. # [02:12] <ojan> roc: yeah, it would be good if there were a declarative way
  126. # [02:12] <ojan> roc: a meta tag or somesuch
  127. # [02:13] <ojan> roc: wrt the contentHeight/Width discussion. what do you think of Hixie's suggestion to just support height/width:intrinsic instead?
  128. # [02:13] <roc> doesn't really work
  129. # [02:13] <roc> the intrinsic size of textareas is already defined
  130. # [02:13] <ojan> why?
  131. # [02:13] <roc> it's set by 'rows' and 'cols'
  132. # [02:14] <roc> that matters for table cell sizing etc
  133. # [02:14] <roc> maybe that's not actually specced and we could redefine it
  134. # [02:15] <roc> or maybe there should be a "shrinkwrap" control that redefines the intrinsic size to be based on the content of the textarea
  135. # [02:15] <ojan> roc: as in, a property on textareas/inputs?
  136. # [02:15] <roc> or maybe a CSS property
  137. # [02:16] <roc> but since 'rows' and 'cols' are already there ...
  138. # [02:16] <ojan> roc: it could be someone wonky like rows=intrinsic
  139. # [02:16] <Hixie> cols="" in HTML5 is basically just the way to set the point at which lines wrap
  140. # [02:17] <roc> yeah that's not a bad idea
  141. # [02:17] <Hixie> i didn't come up with a justification for rows="", but it's in there too for completeness
  142. # [02:17] <roc> Hixie: that's OK but it doesn't change the fact that the CSS intrinsic height has to be based on them too
  143. # [02:17] <Hixie> it doesn't have to be. we could define things in other ways.
  144. # [02:18] <Hixie> e.g. define two intrinsic dimensions, one triggered by height:auto and one by height:intrinsic
  145. # [02:18] <Hixie> or whatever
  146. # [02:18] <roc> adds complexity
  147. # [02:19] <roc> I hate having multiple variables that almost but not quite mean the same thing
  148. # [02:21] <ojan> really what we want is a way to tell a textarea to size like a div and an input to size like a span (minus the wrapping part)
  149. # [02:21] <Hixie> yeah, maybe there needs to be a value that means "auto-like-what-blocks-do-instead-of-intrinsic"
  150. # [02:22] <roc> really what we want is plaintext contenteditable :-)
  151. # [02:22] <ojan> roc: that's true
  152. # [02:23] <ojan> roc: does gecko support that
  153. # [02:23] <ojan> ?
  154. # [02:23] <ojan> roc: webkit does it turns out
  155. # [02:23] <roc> not in a Web-exposed way
  156. # [02:23] <roc> but our textareas and text inputs have an anonymous block inside, much like Webkit's
  157. # [02:24] <roc> setting up the editor with plain text rules probably wouldn't be too hard
  158. # [02:24] <roc> you have to worry about edge cases where the page inserts non-plaintext itself
  159. # [02:24] <ojan> roc: the way webkit's works is that you can insert non-plaintext from JS, but not from user-actions (e.g. paste)
  160. # [02:24] <ojan> roc: which i think is the preferred implementation actually
  161. # [02:25] <ojan> roc: allows you to do richer content (e.g. syntax highlighting)
  162. # [02:25] <roc> I'm not sure how our plain-text editing rules would interact with content that wasn't actually plain text
  163. # [02:25] <ojan> yeah, that's the tricky bit
  164. # [02:25] <roc> that's never been tested and therefore doesn't work
  165. # [02:26] <ojan> it would be a shame not to support it though. it opens up a ton of doors to doing things in web pages that are immensely difficutl right now
  166. # [02:27] <ojan> roc: http://www.plexode.com/cgi-bin/eval3.py#ht=%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22border%3A1px%20solid%22%20contentEditable%3D'plaintext-only'%3Eadsf%3C%2Fdiv%3E&ohh=1&ohj=1&jt=&ojh=1&ojj=1&ms=100&oth=0&otj=0&cex=1
  167. # [02:28] <roc> no vendor prefix? shame!
  168. # [02:28] <ojan> (that's teh webkit contenteditabe)
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  170. # [02:28] <ojan> roc: i'm not sure it was intentionally exposed actually...
  171. # [02:28] <roc> but yeah, that's the way to go!
  172. # [02:28] <ojan> roc: i only noticed it cuz i was looking at source code
  173. # [02:30] <ojan> roc: also works with -webkit-user-modify:read-write-plaintext-only
  174. # [02:30] <ojan> roc: worth me filing a mozilla bug for then?
  175. # [02:32] <roc> Maybe not until you have a spec for how it should work interoperably
  176. # [02:32] <roc> for example
  177. # [02:32] <ojan> roc: as in, how to deal with non-plaintexts that's inserted by thye page?
  178. # [02:32] <roc> yeah, mainly
  179. # [02:33] <roc> like if I'm in a <ul>
  180. # [02:33] <roc> and I hit return
  181. # [02:33] <roc> but it's plaintext mode
  182. # [02:33] <roc> does a list bullet get inserted?
  183. # [02:34] <ojan> roc: yeah. all that needs specing. fwiw webkit always just inserts a BR on enter in plaintext mode
  184. # [02:34] <ojan> as best i can tell
  185. # [02:34] <roc> that seems slightly weird to me
  186. # [02:34] <ojan> which seems totally reasonable and simple
  187. # [02:34] <ojan> lols
  188. # [02:35] <ojan> yeah, there's a ton of open questions
  189. # [02:35] <ojan> e.g. what happens when you hit backspace
  190. # [02:35] <roc> that too
  191. # [02:36] <ojan> roc: there's a small crew of us here at google that are working on specing all these thigns for regular contenteditable. probably wouldn't be too much extra work to spec it for plaintext contenteditable as well
  192. # [02:36] <ojan> roc: i'll bring it up in our next meeting
  193. # [02:36] <roc> also what happens with soft and hard spaces ... normally plain-text editing assumes white-space:pre or similar, but what if we're editing white-space:normal text?
  194. # [02:36] <roc> it starts to sound to me like the simplest way to spec plain-text mode would be to make it just like HTML mode except that certain user commands are completely disabled --- ones that create formatting where there wasn't any before, like "bold".
  195. # [02:37] <roc> and others like "paste" strip formatting
  196. # [02:38] <roc> ojan: I hope that spec will be open to outside feedback
  197. # [02:38] <ojan> roc: speaking of which we've been thinking we might be getting to a point where we'd want to involve other vendors to get their perspective. who on the mozilla side might be interested?
  198. # [02:38] <roc> haha
  199. # [02:38] <ojan> roc: :)
  200. # [02:38] <roc> it's probably better to publish it rather than make it invitation-only
  201. # [02:38] <roc> Chris Pearce could look at it
  202. # [02:39] <roc> Daniel Glazman might also be interested
  203. # [02:39] <ojan> roc: yeah...we're still doing the legwork of speccing the basics first
  204. # [02:39] <ojan> roc: e.g. we did a look at what existing word processors do when you hit enter/tab/etc and are trying to come up with recommended behaviors from that
  205. # [02:40] <ojan> roc: where existing word processors includes word, web browsers, notepad, textedit, etc
  206. # [02:40] <roc> yeah, it seems better to me to have plain-text mode just be HTML mode with enough stuff disabled that if you start with plain text, there is no way for the user to end up with anything but plain text
  207. # [02:41] <ojan> roc: i think i agree with you. the only exception is hitting enter
  208. # [02:41] <ojan> roc: i think inserting a br on enter is not really what you want in the rich-edit case
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  210. # [02:42] <ojan> where in plain-text, with just user-inserted content, i would expect the end result to just be text + BRs
  211. # [02:43] <roc> seems to me if the user hits enter in white-space:pre text, we should just insert a newline
  212. # [02:43] <roc> in either mode
  213. # [02:43] <ojan> roc: yup...but plaintext doesn't imply white-space:pre, right?
  214. # [02:43] <ojan> or maybe it should
  215. # [02:43] <roc> no
  216. # [02:43] <roc> but they'll often go together
  217. # [02:44] <ojan> roc: yeah, in practice you'd usually want white-space:pre-wrap i guess
  218. # [02:44] <roc> yeah
  219. # [02:44] <roc> either way
  220. # [02:45] <ojan> roc: does gecko not support user-modify?
  221. # [02:46] <ojan> i just tried -moz-user-modify:read-write
  222. # [02:47] <roc> not really
  223. # [02:47] <roc> as far as I know
  224. # [02:48] <roc> we just hide the caret but don't actually block editing if it's contenteditable
  225. # [02:48] <ojan> oh weird...netscape supported it but gecko doesn't?
  226. # [02:48] <ojan> (according to the interwebs)
  227. # [02:49] <roc> I'm not sure what it means to "support" it if you don't support contenteditable
  228. # [02:49] <roc> which Netscape didn't
  229. # [02:49] <roc> of course
  230. # [02:49] <ojan> yeah
  231. # [02:49] <ojan> i was looking at http://www.aptana.com/reference/html/api/CSS.field.-moz-user-modify.html
  232. # [02:49] <ojan> user-modify is way more useful that contentEditable though
  233. # [02:50] <ojan> not for the read-only or write-only properties, but that you can nest editable bits inside non-editable bits inside editable bits without messing with the actual DOM.
  234. # [02:50] <ojan> lets you do things with layout like image captions that are otherwise really really hard
  235. # [02:51] <ojan> roc: anyways, i have to go. thanks for your feedback today
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  294. # [08:50] <Hixie> i hate browser release days
  295. # [08:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: you should move acid tests to a different server
  296. # [08:51] <Hixie> tempted
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  299. # [09:18] <aboodman> Hixie: has anyone been in here recently asking about localstorage and concurrency?
  300. # [09:18] <aboodman> the topic has come up on a chromium mailing list, i guess it is complicated.
  301. # [09:18] <Hixie> sicking mentioned it a few weeks ago
  302. # [09:19] <Hixie> the spec right now just assumes a global lock that is released by the script ending
  303. # [09:19] <Hixie> which i guess isn't so hot
  304. # [09:19] <Hixie> what does IE8 do?
  305. # [09:19] <aboodman> not sure
  306. # [09:19] <aboodman> good question
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  308. # [09:23] <hsivonen> aargh. The release version of IE8 shows the compatibility view button even with the HTML5 doctype
  309. # [09:23] <hsivonen> didn't the Windows 7 RC not do that?
  310. # [09:38] * Hixie moves the web workers source document into the html5 source document
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  313. # [09:49] <Hixie> ok my script now generates
  314. # [09:49] <Hixie> 2 whatwg specs
  315. # [09:50] <Hixie> 5 w3c specs
  316. # [09:50] <Hixie> 1 ietf spec
  317. # [09:50] <Hixie> a validation report
  318. # [09:50] <Hixie> diffs
  319. # [09:50] <Hixie> checks for broken links
  320. # [09:50] <Hixie> and checks for how many issues were added or removed
  321. # [09:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: you can then publish the full thing as a "compilation" of 6 specs :-)
  322. # [09:51] <Hixie> that's what i validate :-)
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  325. # [09:56] <Hixie> and my commit script commits to two subversion repos, five cvs repos, and submits the I-D to the IETF system
  326. # [09:56] <Hixie> oh and generates the multipage version
  327. # [09:57] <Hixie> oh and my main script also gets the pubrules check on the main html5 spec
  328. # [09:57] <Hixie> and there's a cronjob that counts issues and makes pdfs
  329. # [09:57] <Hixie> ok bed time now
  330. # [09:57] <Hixie> nn
  331. # [09:57] <hsivonen> nn
  332. # [10:14] <hsivonen> can someone help me understand why http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-lecture/html5-tml.ogg works in Firefox, in XiphQT and in VLC on Mac but not in VLC on Windows or VLC on Linux?
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  335. # [10:20] * zcorpan confirms that it doesn't work with vlc on windows but works with mplayer on windows
  336. # [10:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: Define "works"
  337. # [10:20] <jgraham> It started playing with VLC/linux for me
  338. # [10:21] <jgraham> but I don't think sound was working
  339. # [10:21] <jgraham> But that could be my system
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  341. # [10:21] <zcorpan> yes it plays but it looks like garbage
  342. # [10:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is there any sound?
  343. # [10:29] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  344. # [10:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: mplayer says the video is 0:47:14 long but it plays beond that
  345. # [10:32] <hsivonen> jgraham, zcorpan: there should be 1024*768@15fps video and mono audio. I only get audio in VLC on Intrepid and Windows 7
  346. # [10:32] * doublec looks
  347. # [10:33] <hsivonen> the right duration is 1:36:11
  348. # [10:33] <hsivonen> oops. bad "only" placement
  349. # [10:34] <hsivonen> in VLC on Intrepid and Windows 7, audio plays, video does not
  350. # [10:34] <hsivonen> in Firefox on Mac and Windows 7, both audio and video play
  351. # [10:34] <hsivonen> in VLC and QiphQT on Mac, both audio and video play
  352. # [10:34] <doublec> yeah, plays fine in ff on linux here
  353. # [10:35] <hsivonen> could it be that the video is CPU-intensive and VLC drops video altogether if it can't play it in real time?
  354. # [10:37] <doublec> where is it not playing?
  355. # [10:37] <doublec> it works in mplayer, vlc and ff for me
  356. # [10:38] <hsivonen> doublec: video doesn't play on Intrepid on older computer and doesn't play on Windows 7 (on virtual machine)
  357. # [10:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: It plays on VLC/Intrepid for me
  358. # [10:39] <jgraham> I can't test the audi though as VLC is complaining oss audio output error: cannot open audio device (/dev/dsp)
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  360. # [10:40] <hsivonen> hmm. video plays on intrepid totem on a VM for me but not on older hardware
  361. # [10:40] * hsivonen blames old hardware and moves on
  362. # [10:40] <hsivonen> thanks
  363. # [10:42] <jgraham> Yeah it plays on totem for me too
  364. # [10:42] * jgraham wonders how to fix his audio problems
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  366. # [10:46] <doublec> see what has the audio device locked open?
  367. # [10:46] <doublec> sudo lsof |grep snd
  368. # [10:58] <virtuelv> jgraham: kill pulseaudio?
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  370. # [11:00] <jgraham> virtuelv: That seemed to help, although it really didn't want to die
  371. # [11:01] <virtuelv> jgraham: you'll be happy to note that I haven't had a single sound problem since updating to jaunty (except two days ago, where everything went bonkers for all of five minutes)
  372. # [11:02] * jgraham is slightly nervous to update a miachine he has to work on to a prerelease OS
  373. # [11:02] <jgraham> *machine
  374. # [11:02] <jgraham> So I guess I will wait a bit and then have sound joy in april (hopefully)
  375. # [11:07] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  376. # [11:07] <virtuelv> jgraham: I wasn't suggesting you updated just yet :-)
  377. # [11:08] <virtuelv> I did so to circumvent other issues, particularily with multi-monitor support on my work machine
  378. # [11:09] <virtuelv> so far, I've not had any downtime at all
  379. # [11:09] * jgraham would also like to get multi-monitor support working better
  380. # [11:09] <jgraham> Although that might be solvable without an upgrade
  381. # [11:11] <virtuelv> it's mostly solvable, except if you drag your machine around a lot
  382. # [11:12] <hsivonen> It seems that Ogg total duration display is rather broken in various apps
  383. # [11:12] <hsivonen> perhaps the ability to cat two ogg streams isn't such a great feature after all
  384. # [11:15] <virtuelv> ok, vlc has problems getting continuous playback of the audio
  385. # [11:15] <virtuelv> but video is fine
  386. # [11:17] <virtuelv> it's lost 1216 buffers a few minutes into the video
  387. # [11:18] <virtuelv> hsivonen: I see you're encoding the audio at 8Khz
  388. # [11:19] <virtuelv> unless saving those megabytes is an extreme priority, I'd just use 44.1 or 48, given that a sound card usually has to upsample anyhow
  389. # [11:19] <hsivonen> virtuelv: the orginal recording was 8 kHz
  390. # [11:19] <hsivonen> *original
  391. # [11:19] <hsivonen> virtuelv: recorded on Nokia N800
  392. # [11:20] <hsivonen> I'd love to know how to do this properly next time
  393. # [11:20] <hsivonen> with a bluetooth microphone and screen capture software that doesn't suck and can spool a couple of hours of screen data
  394. # [11:21] <hsivonen> or a new version of Keynote if the new version doesn't suck
  395. # [11:23] <jgraham> When we did this kind of thing for a conference we ended up using some box that sat between the computer and the projector to capture the video. But that had the requirement that people be able to use their own laptops
  396. # [11:23] <jgraham> so we couldn't install any special software
  397. # [11:23] <jgraham> (and everyone wore a mic and we captured the audio from that somehow)
  398. # [11:24] <virtuelv> hsivonen: This was basically just a screencast, and meant as such, right?
  399. # [11:24] <doublec> most ogg players don't handled cat'd streams well
  400. # [11:24] <virtuelv> convert your presentation to SVG? :P
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  409. # [11:57] <hsivonen> virtuelv: it was meant to be a live audio recording of a lecture with synchronized projector-equivalent video
  410. # [11:57] <hsivonen> virtuelv: I lack the authoring tools for doing this in SVG
  411. # [11:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: how much does such a box weigh and cost? I'd expect a box to be an overkill for someone who presents perhaps twice a year
  412. # [12:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: Don't know. It was pretty small. It wasn't the perfect solution since it was basically intercepting the video signal occasionally; I think we had to have quite infrequent sampling to make it work well enough, but that means video and things don't get captured so well
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  414. # [12:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: See http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk/meetings/gravity08/video_archive.html for example output
  415. # [12:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: I want a solution that samples 15 times per second but is smart enough to encode just a repeat bit when the frame is the same as the previous one
  416. # [12:01] <hsivonen> I will have to experiment with Snapz Pro in the two-screen Keynote presentation mode
  417. # [12:06] <hsivonen> heh. Lessig on Keynote's video export: "Like selling a spreadsheet that can't multiply"
  418. # [12:06] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  419. # [12:11] <hsivonen> also, I should get some "umm" and "uhh" elimination coaching te make recording more worthwhile...
  420. # [12:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: I thought you started off slightly shaky but got a lot better once you got into it
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  422. # [12:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
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  427. # [13:00] <hsivonen> hmm. SMIL 3.0 allows declarative content selection based on OS name...
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  432. # [13:32] * zcorpan wonders whether the split-out sections are now only under w3c license and not under whatwg license
  433. # [13:33] * hsivonen wonders what build howcome used for http://people.opera.com/howcome/2009/talks/03-css3.html
  434. # [13:34] <hsivonen> rounded corners and box-shadow don't work in Opera 10
  435. # [13:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: probably some internal build using presto 2.3
  436. # [13:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ah. rounded corners are coming, then. Yay!
  437. # [13:35] <annevk3> post Opera 10 most likely
  438. # [13:42] <Lachy> the CSS3 Transitions demo in that presentation draws the Opera logo upside down. I wonder why he did that.
  439. # [13:47] <jgraham> zcorpan: That would be quite worrying. Although I think we could go back to the earlier versions if Hixie turns evil or something
  440. # [13:50] <annevk3> the source document is still under a liberal copyright aiui
  441. # [13:50] <jgraham> Still someone should email the list because it is unclear
  442. # [13:55] <hsivonen> are tests 007, 008 and 009 at http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/ demos or test cases?
  443. # [13:55] <hsivonen> if they are test cases, what's the pass condition?
  444. # [13:57] <hsivonen> a number of those tests leave the trobber in the loading state in Firefox
  445. # [13:57] <annevk3> "WARNING!! 004 to 013 are DEMOS not TESTS at this time."
  446. # [13:57] <annevk3> rtfm
  447. # [13:57] <annevk3> o_O
  448. # [13:57] <hsivonen> oops. I read "to" as "and". need to be more careful
  449. # [13:59] <hsivonen> sigh. I fail already at test 003
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  465. # [15:29] <hsivonen> I'm completely confused by the results I'm getting with http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/003.html
  466. # [15:29] <hsivonen> as far as I can tell, all the scripts run, but for some reason most of them leave no trace in the variable collecting the results
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  471. # [15:43] <hsivonen> hmm. so I indeed have the right execution order
  472. # [15:43] <hsivonen> perhaps I lose the window object on the way...
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  479. # [16:31] <Philip`> http://search.cpan.org/dist/IWL/lib/IWL/Canvas.pm
  480. # [16:31] <Philip`> Seems likes it generates JS code for each method you call, which seems a bit peculiar compared to simply writing the JS yourself
  481. # [16:32] <hsivonen> but code generation FTW!
  482. # [16:33] <jgraham> Also it is widely known that javascript is a horrible language that people used to perfectly sensible languages like perl avoid at all costs
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  484. # [16:34] <Philip`> At least JS lets you use $ in your variable names, so it's not all that different
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  508. # [17:38] <Philip`> http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html - "a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better"
  509. # [17:38] <Philip`> Aha, that explains http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090303#l-561
  510. # [17:38] <Philip`> Also, it's taking the colour-of-the-bikeshed idea to a whole new level
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  514. # [18:00] <hsivonen> wow. the IE8 mode switching is so insane that it is hard to express as a flowchart
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  517. # [18:12] <hsivonen> This flowchart is looking way too crazy
  518. # [18:12] <hsivonen> I think I'm going to continue it another day
  519. # [18:12] <Philip`> Would it be easier to write as code rather than as a flowchart?
  520. # [18:12] <hsivonen> perhaps
  521. # [18:13] <hsivonen> with goto
  522. # [18:13] <hsivonen> well, perhaps with function calls, too
  523. # [18:13] <hsivonen> but so far I am confident to say that anyone who presents three or so simple rules is not telling the whole story
  524. # [18:15] <hsivonen> also, it seems that too many people jumped the gun with stuff documented at the beta stage
  525. # [18:16] <hsivonen> the only way to hide the compat button (for an author) is to use new previously unadvertised X-UA-Compatible values
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  527. # [18:18] <karlcow> http://beta.w3.org/
  528. # [18:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: Which values are those?
  529. # [18:20] <hsivonen> and of course, MSDN documentation is wrong (Film at 11)
  530. # [18:20] <hsivonen> IE=8
  531. # [18:21] <hsivonen> IE=7
  532. # [18:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: ^
  533. # [18:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: as opposed to IE=IE8
  534. # [18:22] <hsivonen> MSDN is wrong about IE=a
  535. # [18:23] <hsivonen> current draft: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ie8-mode.pdf
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  541. # [18:38] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: that flowchart makes no sense
  542. # [18:38] <mpilgrim> to me
  543. # [18:39] <mpilgrim> what happens if the X-UA-Compatible meta element is not present?
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  550. # [18:49] <Philip`> I see some code in IE saying /rss/channel/*[local-name() = 'X-UA-Compatible' and namespace-uri() = 'http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/monitoring/2007']
  551. # [18:50] <Philip`> I guess that means there's an <rssmonitoring:X-UA-Compatible> element you can use?
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  553. # [18:59] <mpilgrim> http://www.google.com/search?q=rssmonitoring+site:microsoft.com says that namespace is about web slices
  554. # [19:01] <mpilgrim> but it may have been an earlier version
  555. # [19:01] <mpilgrim> the current web slices seems to be based around hAtom
  556. # [19:01] <mpilgrim> can't find documentation of that namespace
  557. # [19:02] <mpilgrim> but it makes sense that if IE/trident-based apps are displaying HTML fragments from feeds, MS would want a way to specify the rendering mode of such fragments
  558. # [19:03] <mpilgrim> (at least, it makes as much sense as anything else MS has done with their rendering modes)
  559. # [19:07] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: It's a draft, so it is missing arcs. Nodes, too!
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  569. # [19:34] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe you could write the flowchart in Graphviz so it'll automatically do all the layout, rather than trying to squeeze more arcs into it manually
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  579. # [20:16] <ojan> Hixie: ping
  580. # [20:16] <Hixie> hey
  581. # [20:16] <ojan> Hixie: after yesterday's discussion, i came to the conclusion that worrying about textareas and inputs working better is silly
  582. # [20:16] <Hixie> heh
  583. # [20:16] <ojan> Hixie: we should instead focus on making contentEditable meet the textarea/input use-cases
  584. # [20:17] <ojan> Hixie: because replaced elements are just dumb.
  585. # [20:17] <ojan> Hixie: webkit already supports contentEditable=plaintext-only
  586. # [20:17] <ojan> Hixie: so that's most of it
  587. # [20:17] <ojan> the only thing left is making it so elements can get treated as form controls
  588. # [20:18] <ojan> e.g. get browser auto-restore, auto-submission in forms, etc
  589. # [20:18] <Hixie> that's non-trivial
  590. # [20:18] <ojan> Hixie: then this totally replaces the need to try and come up with APIs on textareas to do syntax highlighting etc
  591. # [20:19] <Hixie> to put it bluntly
  592. # [20:19] <ojan> Hixie: i've not really thought about it much, what's difficutl about it?
  593. # [20:19] <Hixie> i think for syntax highlighting requiring authors to do DOM manipulation is going to be painful
  594. # [20:19] <Hixie> so painful, e.g., that the Bespin guys wrote their own editor using <canvas> rather than doing it
  595. # [20:19] <ojan> i'm not convinced that's true
  596. # [20:20] <Hixie> that's a bit like saying "what's difficult about building an aircraft carrier" :-)
  597. # [20:20] <ojan> if all user-insertion is plain-text
  598. # [20:20] <ojan> and the JS has total control over the DOM
  599. # [20:20] <ojan> the hard part currently is dealing with the fact that the user can insert any sort of crazy
  600. # [20:20] <Hixie> if the user inserts a " and you now have to go through an redo all the DOM just to change colours, that's going to be crazy
  601. # [20:20] <ojan> but if you control the DOM that gets created, then you can make a lot of simplifying assumptions
  602. # [20:20] <Hixie> and simply isn't going to scale to multimegabyte files
  603. # [20:21] <ojan> that's true
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  605. # [20:21] <Hixie> you want to be able to just style what's on the screen, and you want to do it quickly, just walking through the source saying blue, blue, green, blue, etc
  606. # [20:21] <inimino> doing syntax highlighting with DOM in real time is very painful
  607. # [20:21] <Philip`> Real (non-web) text editors don't scan through the entire file when updating syntax highlighting - they just do it incrementally, and sometimes get it wrong but nobody minds
  608. # [20:22] <Philip`> (Or at least Vim doesn't, judging by how it sometimes gets confused when I jump around in a Perl script)
  609. # [20:22] <ojan> Hixie: forgetting syntax highlighting for a moment, there are plenty of other good use-cases for plaintext contentEditable
  610. # [20:23] <Hixie> Philip`: emacs' appears to be full-file, but it's async and doesn't handle all of perl's constructs
  611. # [20:23] <Hixie> ojan: no disagreement from me here, i just think that making it fit into the form submission model and session history is a giant amount of work
  612. # [20:24] <ojan> Hixie: why?
  613. # [20:24] <ojan> Hixie: what's different about it from a textarea?
  614. # [20:24] <Hixie> again, that's a bit like asking "why is building an aircraft carrier hard?". it's just a lot of complexity, there's no one big problem.
  615. # [20:24] <Hixie> it's doable
  616. # [20:24] <Hixie> it's just a lot of work
  617. # [20:25] <Hixie> probably a lot more work than just fixing <textarea> would be
  618. # [20:25] <Hixie> but what we should do is start from use cases
  619. # [20:25] <Hixie> look at requirements, and consider how best to address them for user and authors
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  624. # [21:08] <Hixie> ahhhh
  625. # [21:08] <Hixie> having the web workers source in the same documents as html5 makes my life so much easier
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  627. # [21:28] <john_fallows> Hixie: with the spec refactoring to extract EventSource and WebSocket APIs, where is the best place to track evolution of the wire protocol for WebSockets?
  628. # [21:29] <Hixie> the wire protocol is at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol
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  634. # [21:37] <jgraham> The google logo today is cool
  635. # [21:42] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  636. # [21:50] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: fair enough; i'm mostly interested in the shortest path (measured in bytes) to get IE8 to act like a real browser, i.e. best-possible-standards-mode or whatever it is they're calling it
  637. # [21:51] <mpt> ha
  638. # [21:51] <mpt> We received our first "Your Web site doesn't work properly in Compatibility View" bug report today
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  640. # [21:53] <jcranmer> Hixie: oh, yuck @ the draft
  641. # [21:53] <Hixie> hm?
  642. # [21:53] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: X-UA-Compatible: IE=8 as a HTTP header plus the HTML5 doctype
  643. # [21:54] <jcranmer> why can't you be like a normal RFC?
  644. # [21:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: surely that will then fail in IE9?
  645. # [21:54] <Hixie> jcranmer: how is it not like a normal RFC?
  646. # [21:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: who knows
  647. # [21:54] <jcranmer> it's way too complicated
  648. # [21:54] <Hixie> i don't know much about writing RFCs
  649. # [21:54] <Hixie> any advice on making it easier would be welcome
  650. # [21:54] <Philip`> IE=edge should still work
  651. # [21:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: more bytes
  652. # [21:55] <jcranmer> explain that the protocol uses UTF-8 or ASCII or whatever
  653. # [21:55] <jcranmer> and just write the text out in ASCII
  654. # [21:55] <mpilgrim> i was hoping for something that didn't involve adding MS-specific cruft to the output stream
  655. # [21:55] <Philip`> assuming IE9 doesn't treat 'edge' as a synonym for '8' for compatibility
  656. # [21:55] <mpilgrim> but maybe that's too much to ask
  657. # [21:55] <Hixie> jcranmer: ?
  658. # [21:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: exactly
  659. # [21:55] <john_fallows> Hixie: thanks, what is the process for participating in community feedback for that? is it the same as before with the HTML5 mailing list and this IRC channel, or is there a new process for WebSocket wire protocol now that it is IETF instead of W3C ?
  660. # [21:55] * Hixie looks at the i-d to see what jcranmer means
  661. # [21:55] <Hixie> john_fallows: the whatwg list is still an appropriate place for now
  662. # [21:56] <jcranmer> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3977 is one that's easier for me to read...
  663. # [21:56] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: I was hoping that the HTML5 doctype would hide the compat view button, but sadly, it does not :-(
  664. # [21:56] <john_fallows> Hixie: ok, thanks. I suppose that will be changing later on, but will continue to provide feedback here until then.
  665. # [21:57] <Hixie> jcranmer: i don't understand what is hard to read
  666. # [21:57] <Hixie> jcranmer: can you be more specific?
  667. # [21:57] <Hixie> john_fallows: yeah, next week will be when we find out what the IETF wants to do, i imagine
  668. # [21:58] <jcranmer> Hixie: say something along the lines of "The character set for all commands is UTF-8" (or US-ASCII, if you prefer) and forgo rewriting every string in hexadecimal
  669. # [21:58] <Hixie> jcranmer: it's a binary wire protocol. i don't understand what you mean. There are no commands.
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  671. # [21:59] <Hixie> jcranmer: could you point to a specific section with what you mean?
  672. # [21:59] <jcranmer> § 2.1
  673. # [22:00] <jcranmer> instead of saying "Send ... 47 45 54 20..." just say "Send GET ..., encoded as ASCII"
  674. # [22:00] <Hixie> jcranmer: i do not have faith that if i give strings, they will be sent correctly. For example, it is not uncommon for people to get the CRLF thing in HTTP wrong.
  675. # [22:01] <Hixie> jcranmer: why does it matter what the strings are, anyway?
  676. # [22:01] <Hixie> jcranmer: it's just an opaque handshake
  677. # [22:01] <jcranmer> it's easier to read
  678. # [22:01] <Hixie> why would you need to read those byte sequences?
  679. # [22:01] <Hixie> it doesn't matter what they say
  680. # [22:01] <Hixie> they're opaque
  681. # [22:01] <Hixie> it does in fact say what they say, under the blocks of bytes
  682. # [22:01] <Hixie> where it says NOTE:
  683. # [22:02] <jcranmer> I'll also admit that I first interpreted it as saying
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  685. # [22:02] <jcranmer> "Send the string "47 45 54 20"..."
  686. # [22:03] <jcranmer> i.e, 34 37 20 34 35 20 35 34 20 32 30...
  687. # [22:03] * Parts: kig_ (i=ilmarihe@melkki.cs.helsinki.fi)
  688. # [22:03] <Hixie> it says "send the following bytes"
  689. # [22:03] <Hixie> i don't know how to be clearer than that
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  691. # [22:07] * jcranmer also notes that there are /too/ many instances of //'s for his tastes
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  693. # [22:08] <Hixie> jcranmer: yeah well i'd rather not be using ASCII
  694. # [22:09] <Hixie> jcranmer: but if we're stuck in the 70s, i need some way to distinguish variable names from prose
  695. # [22:09] <Hixie> jcranmer: and /var/ is the convention
  696. # [22:09] <mpilgrim> we must be discussing RFCs
  697. # [22:09] <jcranmer> well, you've successfully made it not feel like an RFC
  698. # [22:10] <jcranmer> I don't think I see a single SHOULD, MUST, or MAY in there
  699. # [22:10] <Hixie> there are 10 MUSTs
  700. # [22:10] <Hixie> 7 SHOULDs
  701. # [22:10] <Hixie> and 4 MAYs
  702. # [22:10] <mpilgrim> are they capitalized?
  703. # [22:11] <jcranmer> no
  704. # [22:11] <mpilgrim> ah
  705. # [22:11] <Hixie> no
  706. # [22:11] <jcranmer> the capitalization is key, IMHO
  707. # [22:11] <Hixie> capitalising them looks dumb
  708. # [22:11] <mpilgrim> you MUST capitalize
  709. # [22:11] <jcranmer> you also didn't cite RFC 2119
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  711. # [22:11] <Hixie> really?
  712. # [22:11] <Hixie> crap, i must have missed including the boilerplate
  713. # [22:11] <Hixie> woah
  714. # [22:11] <Hixie> no conformance section
  715. # [22:12] <Hixie> i forgot to copy that over when i extracted this from html5
  716. # [22:12] <Hixie> my bad
  717. # [22:12] <Hixie> will fix
  718. # [22:12] * mpilgrim is guessing hixie hasn't learned about RFC nits yet
  719. # [22:12] <Hixie> i hate the rfc format
  720. # [22:12] <mpilgrim> or you've forcibly erased it from your mind
  721. # [22:12] <Hixie> "stuck in the 70s" really is the only way to describe it
  722. # [22:13] <mpilgrim> http://www.ietf.org/ID-Checklist.html
  723. # [22:13] <jcranmer> hey, I like RFCs
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  725. # [22:13] <mpilgrim> there are automated tools to check for nit-compliance
  726. # [22:13] <Hixie> mpilgrim: i run them
  727. # [22:13] <mpilgrim> and they missed the fact that you have no boilerplate section?!
  728. # [22:14] <mpilgrim> i think you're doing it wrong ;)
  729. # [22:14] <Hixie> i have the ietf boilerplate
  730. # [22:14] <Hixie> just not the whatwg boilerplate
  731. # [22:14] <mpilgrim> ah
  732. # [22:14] <Hixie> here i'll do it now
  733. # [22:15] <mpilgrim> bah, gotta go hang out with wife's work friends
  734. # [22:24] <Hixie> olliej: yt?
  735. # [22:24] <olliej> Hixie: yup
  736. # [22:24] <Hixie> olliej: did you get a feeling that the mozilla guys came to some kind of agreement on how to do importScripts()?
  737. # [22:25] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  738. # [22:25] <olliej> Hixie: err, i believe we did
  739. # [22:25] <olliej> but i can't recall what it was
  740. # [22:25] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  741. # [22:25] <olliej> i think we just decided that the current spec was right
  742. # [22:26] <Hixie> so mozilla's going to change?
  743. # [22:27] * Quits: broquaint (i=ecdf4a75@spc1-brig11-0-0-cust544.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  744. # [22:29] * Joins: Alkarex (n=alexandr@1006ds4-van.0.fullrate.dk)
  745. # [22:30] <Hixie> olliej: they concur, thanks
  746. # [22:30] <olliej> \o/
  747. # [22:34] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=fircuser@32.163.122.56)
  748. # [22:37] <mpilgrim> hooray for android!
  749. # [22:40] <Hixie> jcranmer: i tried to fix it, but the ietf won't accept ID submissions for some reason
  750. # [22:41] <Hixie> i'm starting to get really tired of the ietf
  751. # [22:41] <Hixie> and i've barely started working with them
  752. # [22:43] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@12.198.166.130)
  753. # [22:49] <Hixie> jcranmer: i put a copy at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.ietf-websocket-protocol/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-04
  754. # [22:49] <Hixie> while i wait for the ietf to learn what "release early release often" means and why month-long outages are ridiculous
  755. # [22:49] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.6)
  756. # [22:51] * Joins: annevk5 (n=opera@535739CA.cable.casema.nl)
  757. # [22:54] <Hixie> olliej: are you ok with us just dropping prototypes in the structured cloning step?
  758. # [22:54] <Hixie> olliej: or do you want is to flatten?
  759. # [22:54] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  760. # [22:54] <olliej> Hixie: yes
  761. # [22:54] <olliej> Hixie: drop them
  762. # [22:54] <Hixie> ok
  763. # [22:54] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@12.198.166.130)
  764. # [22:54] <olliej> Hixie: i'm also unsure what is meant by "host object"
  765. # [22:55] <olliej> Hixie: eg. should a Regex object clone? or is it considered a host object?
  766. # [22:55] <olliej> Hixie: or should the properties on a Regex object be cloned, but produce a generic object, not a regex?
  767. # [22:55] <Hixie> i think "host object" has a strict meaning in ES3.1
  768. # [22:55] <Hixie> but i forgot about RegExp objects
  769. # [22:55] <Hixie> so i'll add that too
  770. # [22:56] <Hixie> is it ok if i clone ImageData and don't support directly cloning CanvasPixelArray?
  771. # [22:56] <Hixie> or should i support both?
  772. # [22:57] <olliej> i think it only makes sense to support cloning imagedata
  773. # [22:57] <Hixie> k
  774. # [22:57] <olliej> Hixie: as if you clone CPA you can't reattach it to an imagedata object
  775. # [22:57] <Hixie> yeah
  776. # [22:57] <olliej> so it would in effect become unusable
  777. # [22:57] <Hixie> that was my thinking too
  778. # [22:57] <Hixie> just making sure you agreed :-)
  779. # [23:00] * Parts: billmason (n=bmason@69.30.57.90)
  780. # [23:01] <Hixie> holy crap, Microsoft Update defaults to non-SSL and asks you to download an ActiveX control!
  781. # [23:01] <Hixie> thanks but no thanks
  782. # [23:01] * Quits: slightlyoff_sf (n=slightly@72.14.229.81) (Remote closed the connection)
  783. # [23:01] * Hixie switches to SSL
  784. # [23:01] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  785. # [23:01] <Philip`> But the ActiveX control is signed, so you can trust it
  786. # [23:02] <Hixie> it's not the control i'm scared of, it's the commands sent TO the control
  787. # [23:02] <Philip`> An attacker might cause you to unwittingly update your Microsoft software?
  788. # [23:03] <Hixie> who knows what that activex control supports
  789. # [23:03] <Philip`> The attackers probably know
  790. # [23:03] <Hixie> jesus, they even REDIRECT YOU to the http:// url in a subframe
  791. # [23:03] <Hixie> good lord
  792. # [23:04] <Philip`> You could always use the built-in autoupdate system rather than the web-based version
  793. # [23:04] <Hixie> there is one?
  794. # [23:04] <Hixie> how do i update IE8 using that?
  795. # [23:05] <Philip`> You switch on Automatic Updates, and then wait a while until a notification pops up, I guess
  796. # [23:05] <Hixie> i want it now
  797. # [23:05] <Philip`> I don't think you can get IE8 via the update system yet, you have to download it from http://www.microsoft.com/ie
  798. # [23:06] <Philip`> (and probably uninstall any pre-release version of IE8 first)
  799. # [23:06] <Hixie> oh good lord
  800. # [23:06] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@12.198.166.130)
  801. # [23:06] * Philip` isn't sure if that's necessary, but it seems safest
  802. # [23:07] * Hixie adds microsoft next to the IETF on his list of silly people for the day
  803. # [23:07] <Philip`> It only took me 40 minutes to upgrade IE8
  804. # [23:07] <Philip`> and I only found two bugs in the installer
  805. # [23:09] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.127.20.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  806. # [23:11] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-160576e2c38797cc)
  807. # [23:11] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/20/rtm-platform-changes.aspx - "For IE8 Beta-1, we closed off the information-disclosure problem whereby JavaScript can read the .value attribute of a file upload control and determine the full local pathname ... We elected to prepend “C:\fakepath\”" - hooray, they're HTML5 compliant
  808. # [23:11] <Hixie> yup
  809. # [23:11] <Hixie> it's not a coincidence :-P
  810. # [23:11] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  811. # [23:12] * Philip` suspected as much :-)
  812. # [23:12] <Philip`> Microsoft seems to be doing a lot to promote standards mode, by entirely removing their new features from quirks mode
  813. # [23:14] <Philip`> "The first change is that we now return null and not undefined for keys that don’t exist in DOM storage. The second change is that we removed the length and remainingSpace properties when iterating DOM storage using a for..in statement." - hmm, but they didn't remove or vendor-prefix their extensions
  814. # [23:15] * Joins: Androo (n=andrew@75-54-26-195.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net)
  815. # [23:16] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-997b6582079c40b4) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  816. # [23:36] * Quits: Androo (n=andrew@75-54-26-195.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net)
  817. # [23:37] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  818. # [23:41] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@65.210.82.235)
  819. # [23:42] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=fircuser@32.163.122.56) (Remote closed the connection)
  820. # [23:42] * Parts: Alkarex (n=alexandr@1006ds4-van.0.fullrate.dk)
  821. # [23:45] * slightlyoff_afk is now known as slightlyoff_sfo
  822. # [23:45] * Joins: bgalbraith_ (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  823. # [23:45] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  824. # [23:46] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  825. # [23:47] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s55927ef8.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  826. # [23:50] <Hixie> i click "download now" for IE8 and it pops a dialog with two more "download now" buttons
  827. # [23:50] <Hixie> what part of "now" do they not understand?
  828. # [23:53] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  829. # [23:53] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-160576e2c38797cc)
  830. # [23:54] * Philip` remembers reading that the person who first implemented Amazon's patented one-click ordering system had been unable to fully understand the "one-click" concept and had added a confirmation dialog box
  831. # [23:55] <Philip`> http://beta.w3.org/TR/html401/ looks different
  832. # [23:56] <Hixie> that beta site has so many lines, rectangles, and links going on it's crazy
  833. # [23:56] * Quits: Maurice (n=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  834. # [23:56] * Quits: annevk5 (n=opera@535739CA.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  835. # [23:57] * Philip` discovers the magic slidey news thing on the front page
  836. # [23:58] <Philip`> Seems it'd be more intuitive to just, like, show all the news on there, rather than hiding it behind obscure buttons that make it hard to notice and hard to scroll through
  837. # [23:58] <Hixie> front page?
  838. # [23:59] <Philip`> http://beta.w3.org/
  839. # [23:59] <Hixie> oh that front page
  840. # [23:59] <Hixie> that page looks like a bunch of news clippings all thrown on a pile to me
  841. # [23:59] <Hixie> i have no idea where to look
  842. # Session Close: Sat Mar 21 00:00:00 2009

The end :)