/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 21 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> there are links at the top, the top right, the right, the bottom right, the bottom middle, the bottom left, the left, and the middle
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  6. # [00:03] <Hixie> (in this respect, btw, it's not particularly worse than the old one)
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  14. # [00:34] * Hixie prefixes all the form-related attributes on <input> with "form" so that "action" is "formaction" instead
  15. # [00:34] <Hixie> such a pain in the behind
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  24. # [01:10] <annevk5> the script decoding stuff seems wrong
  25. # [01:11] <annevk5> HTTP should take precedence over BOMs
  26. # [01:16] <annevk5> also, it seems if that algorithm allowed for passing in a charset it could be used by HTML5 as well
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  28. # [01:28] <Lachy> http://reports.graymattergravy.com/2009/03/16/html-5-ogg/
  29. # [01:39] <Hixie> the algorithm for <script> is similar but not quite
  30. # [01:39] <Hixie> and i'm pretty sure the bom overrides the mime type
  31. # [01:39] <Hixie> file a bug with a test case if it doesn't :-)
  32. # [01:44] <annevk5> are you saying scripts work different from text/html?
  33. # [01:44] <annevk5> because for text/html you specify that HTTP overrides BOM
  34. # [01:44] * Hixie points to the topic
  35. # [01:45] <annevk5> i sort of doubt impl are consistent on that and it seems icky
  36. # [01:45] <annevk5> oh well, will test some day
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  48. # [02:21] * Lachy hangs his sense of logic on the hook outside and enters to say...
  49. # [02:21] <Lachy> Hixie, is it really necessary to have the BOM override HTTP for script encoding detection, despite that being inconsistent with everything else?
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  56. # [02:50] <Hixie> Lachy: isn't that what happens now for <script>?
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  58. # [02:50] <Hixie> Lachy: anne asked the same question
  59. # [02:51] <Hixie> Lachy: i thought i had just used the same algorithm as <script>
  60. # [02:51] <Hixie> Lachy: if it's wrong, file a bug
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  65. # [03:10] <Lachy> Hixie, I thought the way browsers determined the encoding of external scripts was to first check the HTTP Content-Type header, or else use the BOM if present, or else use the document's encoding.
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  94. # [07:01] * jwalden wonders why IE8 occasionally, but not consistently, displays acid2 as <http://web.mit.edu/jwalden/www/ie8-acid2-fail.png>
  95. # [07:02] <jwalden> (that's a remote desktop setup, which might have an effect)
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  106. # [09:23] <olliej> roc: any idea if jruderman is online anywhere?
  107. # [09:23] <roc> right now?
  108. # [09:24] <olliej> roc: yeah
  109. # [09:24] <roc> no idea really
  110. # [09:24] <olliej> roc: bah, i expect you to know all :D
  111. # [09:25] <roc> it is Saturday night here you know :-)
  112. # [09:31] <olliej> roc: psh, details
  113. # [09:32] <roc> maybe I need to point out that some of us aren't online much on weekends due to having families and being old
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  125. # [11:07] <annevk5> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=484406 is somewhat interesting
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  133. # [11:57] <gsnedders> Anyone got any thoughts on creating a html5lib.serialize function?
  134. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: doesn't html5lib already contain a function for doing serialization?
  135. # [11:59] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Only by calling about ten functions
  136. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: so html5lib.serialize would basically be a convenience wrapper that executes the existing code?
  137. # [12:01] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yeah
  138. # [12:02] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Like html5lib.parse is one for parsing
  139. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
  140. # [12:02] <gsnedders> The only fun thing is you need to know what format the tree is in
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  142. # [12:02] <gsnedders> (Like, is it dom, is it etree, etc.)
  143. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
  144. # [12:02] <gsnedders> That can be worked around by just doing stuff like hasattr
  145. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> ah, yeah
  146. # [12:03] <gsnedders> (And hoping people don't do really whacky OO stuff subclassing stuff)
  147. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> hmm
  148. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> people do whacky stuff
  149. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> in general
  150. # [12:03] <gsnedders> Probably better allow it to be explicitly stated the format, but try sniffing if it isn't
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  152. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> my experience in product-dev orgs is that engineers always swear "no sane user will ever do that".. and as soon as the product is actually deployed, we have actual users (customers) doing just what engineering claimed they'd have to be insane to do
  153. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: anyway, sounds like something that would be great to have, and that nobody would argue against
  154. # [12:06] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Damnit! I was hoping you guys would give me a reason not to do it!
  155. # [12:06] <gsnedders> That means I've got another thing on my to-do list!
  156. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: Just do it.
  157. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> give up on adonais and move all your energy to work exclusively on things that I personally find most useful
  158. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> that's my recommendation for you
  159. # [12:09] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  160. # [12:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: html5lib.serialise(input, tree="simpletree", format="html", **serializer_opts) should probably be the signature
  161. # [12:14] <jgraham> we should also have html5lib.sanitize
  162. # [12:14] <jgraham> But I don't know if that should return a tree or text
  163. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> jgraham! hey
  164. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> so you've been up in the great sunny north for how long now?
  165. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> 3 months?
  166. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> wondering how you are liking it so far
  167. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> working mostly with zcorpan?
  168. # [12:23] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Hej.
  169. # [12:23] <jgraham> Yeah, working with zcorpan a bit.
  170. # [12:24] <jgraham> It's pretty nice here although they seem to want to stop me getting an internet connection really bad, which sucks
  171. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> huh?
  172. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> who wants you to do that?
  173. # [12:24] <jgraham> I mean the swedes not opera
  174. # [12:24] <jgraham> :)
  175. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> ah
  176. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> yeah
  177. # [12:25] <jgraham> I tried and they claimed that I han't been in the country long enough (or rather that my job wasn't yet considered permanant) and so I was too much of a credit risk
  178. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> heh
  179. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> idiots
  180. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> god
  181. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> I mean, you are coming to them with money in hand to spend
  182. # [12:26] <jgraham> Indeed
  183. # [12:26] <jgraham> With thatt in mind I am going to drop offline for a moment to see if I can get this silly 3G dongle thing working under linux
  184. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> jgraham: go for it
  185. # [12:31] <jgraham> #Holy crap it works. Will the miracles never end?
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  187. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> jgraham: "3G dongle thing" is an HSDPA modem?
  188. # [12:37] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/
  189. # [12:39] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Seeming you might be interested, I saw Bill Manhire and Simon Armitage speaking yesterday
  190. # [12:39] <gsnedders> Primarily reading their poetry
  191. # [14:39] * Disconnected
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  194. # [14:39] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  195. # [14:39] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  196. # [14:41] <jgraham> virtuelv: Because there isn't really anything non-scientific about using a process that allows for the possibility of a creative insight producing a better result than incremental improvements to the existing model
  197. # [14:42] <jgraham> It would only be non-scientific if you insisted that some design was superior inthe face of data to the contrary and without a hypothesis as to why the data was wrong
  198. # [14:43] <Philip`> It would be non-scientific if you didn't have any data at all
  199. # [14:44] <jgraham> Myabe. But that is different to the Google situation
  200. # [14:45] <jgraham> (unless the complaint is that there should have been a designer whose work was considered perfect, even in the face of user feedback to the contrary)
  201. # [14:45] <jgraham> (which seems unlikely)
  202. # [14:48] <Philip`> My interpretation of the complaint is that (some) designers need to be able to design creatively and artistically, without being bogged down in the scientific details at every stage
  203. # [14:48] <jgraham> Philip`: Which seems perfectly scientific
  204. # [14:49] <jgraham> (if you remove the word "scientific" from your last sentence)
  205. # [14:49] <jgraham> That's how a great deal of theoretical physics works, for example
  206. # [14:50] <jgraham> It's only non-scientific if you come up with something that either cannot be tested or which you refuse to test
  207. # [14:50] <Philip`> I'm trying to think of a better word than "scientific" but I'm not sure what it is
  208. # [14:50] <Philip`> Maybe "engineeristic" or something
  209. # [14:52] <Philip`> or "exclusively data-focused" or something
  210. # [14:53] <jgraham> "data focused" seems fair
  211. # [14:55] * MikeSmith scrolls back to try to understand context for "data focused"....
  212. # [14:56] <jgraham> (it is easy to imagine the same problem in other situations to get an idea of how frustrating it might be, for example the same book being sold with slightly different word choices to see which sells better)
  213. # [14:57] <Philip`> (That example would only work if people read the book before deciding whether to buy it)
  214. # [14:58] <Philip`> (You could, however, publish the same book with several different covers and see which sells better)
  215. # [14:59] <Philip`> (though in the case of e.g. Harry Potter books they use different covers to increase the range of their target market, which is a separate issue)
  216. # [15:02] * Philip` has seen Discworld books with 'adult' covers too, and remembers that he used to find the original illustrated Discworld book covers to be hideous and disturbing to such an extent that he didn't like looking at them
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  228. # [16:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess it should be serialize and not serialise
  229. # [16:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: To be internally consistency
  230. # [16:07] <gsnedders> *consistent
  231. # [16:09] <Philip`> Call it tostring() instead
  232. # [16:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@p4bfc04.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
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  235. # [16:27] * gsnedders commits to html5lib for the first time in ages
  236. # [16:27] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  237. # [16:28] * Parts: annevk5 (n=opera@535739CA.cable.casema.nl)
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  242. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: Challenge: find number of uppercase ASCII characters in tag names as a percentage of all characters in tag names.
  243. # [17:25] * Joins: atw (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  244. # [17:29] <Philip`> gsnedders: In some unknown number of pages from dmoz.org with five million things that look kind of like tags, I see 11723600 lowercase characters and 1547593 uppercase
  245. # [17:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: thx
  246. # [17:29] <Philip`> (and 59370 digits)
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  263. # [20:07] * Quits: Niictar (n=ritz@S010600183f550ae0.cg.shawcable.net)
  264. # [20:08] * gsnedders wonders who drhowarddrfine is… seems to have a very, very, very anti-MS POV
  265. # [20:10] * Joins: mpilgrim_ (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  266. # [20:10] * Philip` wonders where his POV is being expressed
  267. # [20:10] <gsnedders> All over the web
  268. # [20:10] <gsnedders> Just google the alias
  269. # [20:15] <Dashiva> Worse than that rudd-o guy?
  270. # [20:15] <gsnedders> Yeah
  271. # [20:17] <Philip`> Is he the one who was vocal about Ogg?
  272. # [20:18] <Dashiva> Yes
  273. # [20:20] <gsnedders> IE is the root of all evil, and target was deprecated for security reasons. Right.
  274. # [20:21] <gsnedders> Also, he can ask Ian Hicks, Hixie, Simone Pieter among other people who will back him up.
  275. # [20:22] <Dashiva> ...
  276. # [20:22] <Dashiva> Simone
  277. # [20:24] <Philip`> Simone and Anne are helping ensure HTML5 isn't a male-dominated spec
  278. # [20:24] <Dashiva> Next is what, Georgia Snedders?
  279. # [20:27] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.76.80)
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  281. # [20:31] <takkaria> hmm... http://twitter.com/NickHodge/statuses/1364909394
  282. # [20:36] <Dashiva> Isn't the svg in acid3 standalone svg?
  283. # [21:00] * Joins: zalan (n=kvirc@dsl540268D7.pool.t-online.hu)
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  286. # [21:29] * fakeolliej is now known as oliej
  287. # [21:29] * oliej is now known as olliej
  288. # [21:31] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@dsl540268D7.pool.t-online.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
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  290. # [21:34] <erlehmann> hmmm, how should i solve this ?
  291. # [21:34] <erlehmann> http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net%2F&showimagereport=yes
  292. # [21:35] <erlehmann> i use ins to group inserted paragraphs
  293. # [21:35] <erlehmann> why can't that be valid ?
  294. # [21:38] * Quits: mpilgrim_ (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  295. # [21:55] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-77-86-107-105.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  296. # [21:56] <gsnedders> erlehmann: It is valid, as far as I can tell
  297. # [21:57] <gsnedders> I'm more or less certain it is
  298. # [21:59] <erlehmann> gsnedders, since the content model of the <ins> element ist transparent, i would think that too. maybe the validator has a hickup ?
  299. # [21:59] <gsnedders> erlehmann: The validator has quite a few bugs :)
  300. # [22:00] <gsnedders> LOL
  301. # [22:00] <gsnedders> Apparently I haven't talked to Hixie in "a couple years or more"
  302. # [22:00] <takkaria> url?
  303. # [22:00] <gsnedders> http://codingforums.com/showpost.php?p=796317&postcount=39
  304. # [22:03] <takkaria> heh
  305. # [22:05] <Philip`> Help, my menu bar has vanished
  306. # [22:05] <Philip`> (in Opera)
  307. # [22:06] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  308. # [22:11] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  309. # [22:12] <erlehmann> Philip`, hit alt+f4 !
  310. # [22:31] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s55927ef8.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
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  317. # [22:59] <jwalden> gsnedders: should you be including <1. Untitled Section> in your outliner when you encounter a sectioning content element that contains no headers?
  318. # [23:00] <gsnedders> jwalden: It is a section with no heading, so yes, it should appear in the outline
  319. # [23:00] <gsnedders> The fact it has no heading is irrelevant
  320. # [23:02] <jwalden> gsnedders: okay, riddle me this batman: suppose I have blag software that displays posts; it puts each post in an <article> with a <h1>post title</h1> at the top
  321. # [23:03] <jwalden> gsnedders: blag posts sometimes contain headers
  322. # [23:03] <jwalden> if I want to number those latter headers from <h1>, is there a way to do that without using <section>?
  323. # [23:03] <jwalden> and without generating phantom headers in an outline when the post is super-simple?
  324. # [23:03] <jwalden> I don't see one
  325. # [23:04] <jwalden> <http://whereswalden.com/> and <http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwhereswalden.com%2F> are the case in point
  326. # [23:06] <jwalden> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/635906 is the relevant PHP
  327. # [23:09] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@ppp-1-128.edin-a-1.access.uk.tiscali.com) ("Leaving")
  328. # [23:09] <jwalden> gsnedders: also, I think your outliner is not "ignoring any sections created for nav and aside elements and any of their descendants"
  329. # [23:13] * gsnedders shrugs
  330. # [23:13] <gsnedders> I suppose that if you want subsections you should just use section elements there, because putting the whole post as a section seems wrong
  331. # [23:16] <jwalden> hm
  332. # [23:16] <jwalden> so this suggests there's no good way to make copy-pastability for content which might or might not contain headers
  333. # [23:16] <gsnedders> nav seems to broken
  334. # [23:17] <gsnedders> As far as I'm concerned, I'm creating an outline per spec
  335. # [23:17] <gsnedders> So ask Hixie :P
  336. # [23:17] <gsnedders> nav/aside is impl. bug I think
  337. # [23:17] <jwalden> so I guessed :-)
  338. # [23:18] <gsnedders> No, nav/aside is right
  339. # [23:18] <gsnedders> "Append the outline of the sectioning content element being exited to the current section. (This does not change which section is the last section in the outline.)"
  340. # [23:19] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/file/b6d93515d41e/anolislib/processes/outliner.py
  341. # [23:20] <jwalden> oh, I was misreading 4.4.10.2
  342. # [23:21] <gsnedders> My entire impl has quote from spec for every line of code, a quite a few asserts were the spec states that something is true
  343. # [23:21] <gsnedders> *and
  344. # [23:21] <gsnedders> So I doubt there are really many impl. bugs :)
  345. # [23:21] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.6)
  346. # [23:31] * Joins: annevk5 (n=opera@535739CA.cable.casema.nl)
  347. # [23:31] <Dashiva> gsnedders: How do you handle spec changes? Update code every time, or keep a "last synced with spec av rev x" or?
  348. # [23:32] <gsnedders> Dashiva: The spec has had one minor change since I wrote it around a year ago, so I don't really handle them at all :P
  349. # [23:39] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.76.80) (Remote closed the connection)
  350. # [23:42] <Philip`> "Brushing aside the personal attacks by small and narrow minds ..." - brushing aside personal attacks by using more personal attacks?
  351. # [23:42] <gavin> heh
  352. # [23:43] <Dashiva> "Brushing aside the personal attacks with a small and narrow mind ..."
  353. # [23:45] <Philip`> "in virtually every other programming language available to application developers today, failing to write the ‘code’ to the code’s specification results in the application simply not working" - not in e.g. C or C++, where you get unspecified behaviour that often actually works perfectly well in practice
  354. # [23:46] <jcranmer> curly quotes seem to mess up irssi
  355. # [23:46] <Dashiva> Not to mention javascript :)
  356. # [23:47] <Philip`> nor in Java, where you can misuse concurrency and get undefined behaviour
  357. # [23:47] <jcranmer> if you try to use multithreading without understanding it
  358. # [23:47] <jcranmer> you'll get undefined behavior no matter what language you use
  359. # [23:48] <Philip`> Dashiva: JS isn't really the same issue - it just has a relaxed specification that allows you to write a lot of things (e.g. missing semicolons) which are weird but still perfectly legal
  360. # [23:48] <Dashiva> No, you still have stuff like function expressions inside conditionals etc
  361. # [23:48] <Dashiva> And HTML comments working as real comments, even outside HTML files...
  362. # [23:48] <Philip`> It doesn't say "you MUST use semicolons" and then ignore missing semicolons
  363. # [23:49] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's more about the specification not matching reality, rather than it telling you you must do something and then not caring when you don't
  364. # [23:49] <Dashiva> I bit myself in java once, I had a class that called a method in its constructor. A subclass included that method, accessing a field in the subclass.
  365. # [23:50] <Dashiva> Philip`: I suppose so. But js is a rather moving target then :)
  366. # [23:50] <Philip`> jcranmer: Are there many languages with the same strict concurrency specifications as Java?
  367. # [23:51] <jcranmer> I imagine the C++0x memory model comes close
  368. # [23:51] <Dashiva> I never understood why i++ + i++ is undefined (or is it implementation specific? does it matter?)
  369. # [23:51] <jcranmer> Dashiva: it's because doing an increment is relatively expensive
  370. # [23:52] * Philip` is thinking of http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/third_edition/html/memory.html#17.4
  371. # [23:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: For the same reason that f(i++, i++) is undefined, I expect
  372. # [23:52] <jcranmer> Philip`: well, that also has the issue of calling conventions
  373. # [23:52] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@92.37.69.96) ("Leaving.")
  374. # [23:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: which is that different compilers and different architectures might prefer to evaluate expressions in different orders, for efficiency
  375. # [23:52] <jcranmer> x86 puts the latter arguments on the stack first
  376. # [23:53] <Philip`> Dashiva: and so the rule is you can't rely on the order
  377. # [23:53] <jcranmer> so f(i++, i++) on an x86 machine would evaluate the second argument firs
  378. # [23:53] <jcranmer> er, first
  379. # [23:53] <Dashiva> I guess that matters much more when you get close to metal, unlike in JS
  380. # [23:54] <Philip`> JS (with JIT) is close to the metal :-)
  381. # [23:54] <jcranmer> so C/C++ makes guarantees at statement (with the exception of a few operators) level as opposed to expression level
  382. # [23:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: (It's undefined, not implementation-defined, and in practice implementations will generate totally bogus code for that expression when you have optimisations turned on)
  383. # [23:56] <jcranmer> i = i++; is the archetypal expression
  384. # [23:57] <Dashiva> Do you know of any cases where implementation defined is actually relied on?
  385. # [23:57] <Philip`> Dashiva: Things like sizeof(int) are implementation defined, and people rely on that
  386. # [23:57] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.6)
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  388. # [23:58] <Philip`> (People often rely on undefined behaviour too, e.g. writing "int i; float f; i = *(int*)(float*)&f;")
  389. # [23:59] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-3eb0bb56e0156ced)
  390. # [23:59] <jcranmer> just use a union :-)
  391. # [23:59] <Philip`> No, just use memcpy :-)
  392. # [23:59] <jcranmer> union { int int_val; float float_val } num;
  393. # [23:59] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-156-99.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  394. # [23:59] <Philip`> memcpy(&i, &f, 4);
  395. # [23:59] <jcranmer> but what if sizeof(int) != 4?
  396. # Session Close: Sun Mar 22 00:00:00 2009

The end :)