/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-22 / end

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# Session Start: Sun Mar 22 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <Philip`> static_assert(sizeof(int) = 4 && sizeof(float) == 4);
# [00:00] <Philip`> s/=/==/
# [00:00] <Dashiva> Float.floatToIntBits :)
# [00:00] <Philip`> All compilers optimise that memcpy into nothingness
# [00:00] * jcranmer notes that said usecase for unions is actually mentioned in a porting-from-C++-to-Java guide
# [00:00] <Philip`> (assuming f is in memory, not in a float register)
# [00:01] <Philip`> I don't think the C/C++ standards (or at least non-latest versions of them) allow the union trick
# [00:02] <Philip`> because they say a value can only be accessed as the type it was declared as, or as (unsigned) char, or a few minor exceptions
# [00:03] * Philip` was recently in a conversation where he found it surprisingly hard to convince people that using memcpy was a good idea, since it's efficient in practice and clearly guaranteed to work in the spec and less fiddly than the dodgy unions :-)
# [00:06] <jcranmer> reinterpret_cast ?
# [00:07] <Philip`> That's the same as C-style casts
# [00:08] <Philip`> Dashiva: Float.floatToIntBits looks like a function call, and function calls are expensive, so that's no good :-p
# [00:09] * jcranmer wonders if the JIT would optimize that out
# [00:10] <Philip`> If you have a million positive floats to sort, it's nice that C(++) lets you pretend they're integers and sort them more efficiently
# [00:11] * jcranmer ponders
# [00:11] <jcranmer> would that actually work?
# [00:11] <Philip`> It's also nice to be able to do "memcpy(&i, &f, 4); ++i; memcpy(&f, &i, 4);" to get the next highest float
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# [00:12] <Philip`> jcranmer: Yes, because ordering is preserved if you reinterpret floats as sign-and-magnitude ints
# [00:12] <Philip`> jcranmer: (and it's preserved if you reinterpret positive floats as two's-complement ints)
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# [00:56] <takkaria> 22:42 < Philip`> "in virtually every other programming language available to application developers today, failing to write the 'code' to the code's specification results in the application simply not working" - not in e.g. C or C++, where you get unspecified behaviour that often actually works perfectly well in practice
# [00:56] <takkaria> oops
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# [07:20] <Hixie> man, some people are weird
# [07:21] <Hixie> i'm continuously amazed at the conclusions people draw from things such as the fact that localstorage is now published in a different document than, say, <canvas>
# [07:21] <Hixie> given that there is no practical difference
# [07:21] <Hixie> same source document, same editor, same timetable, same implementation priorities
# [07:23] <Hixie> aboodman: i think it's too late to change the localStorage API; IE8 shipped with it already
# [07:23] <Hixie> and they don't lock across instances of their browser
# [07:23] <Hixie> so they don't guarantee that localStorage.foo == localStorage.foo
# [07:23] <aboodman> Hixie: it's never too late. I thought that was the point.
# [07:23] <aboodman> isn't there a big disclaimer at the top of the spec to that effect?
# [07:24] <Hixie> disclaimer or not, realistically speaking it would be stupid of us to do something that breaks compatibility with IE
# [07:24] <Hixie> it'll be 2 or 3 years before they ship IE9
# [07:25] <Hixie> so the earliest we could expect them to implement a new API is long after we can expect the API to be used widely
# [07:25] <aboodman> it's a very small incompatibility that's being proposed.
# [07:25] <aboodman> easily papered over by js
# [07:26] <aboodman> i doubt other vendors will be into the idea of shipping something obviously broken when a simple fix exists.
# [07:26] <Hixie> i guess
# [07:27] <Hixie> we should bring this up on public-html
# [07:27] <Hixie> see what they think
# [07:27] <aboodman> sure.
# [07:27] <Hixie> they did, after all, fail to implement the spec as written
# [07:27] <Hixie> which might give us _some_ leverage
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# [07:43] <Hixie> jwalden: i didn't really understand what you were asking for regarding your blog post section headers
# [07:44] <jwalden> Hixie: each post has this basic format: <article><h1>post title</h1> ...post content...</article>
# [07:44] <jwalden> Hixie: if I want each post's content to be able to contain headers (but not *necessarily* contain any), and I want that content to be able to use the natural style of h1, h2, h3, etc. headers, I need to put it in a sectioning element
# [07:45] <jwalden> but if I do that, any entry which doesn't contain a header shows up in outlines as "Untitled Section" or similar
# [07:45] <Hixie> just use <h2> - <h6> for subheaders
# [07:45] <jwalden> that's possible, sure
# [07:46] <Hixie> doesn't that solve the problem? :-)
# [07:46] <jwalden> it just seems odd, because I thought one of the prime goals of this was to make it easy to copy-paste from elsewhere where h1 could have been used
# [07:46] <Hixie> if you use <h1> and <section>, you can copy paste that content anywhere, yes
# [07:47] <Hixie> i guess i don't understand the problem still
# [07:47] <jwalden> beyond that, it just seems odd that a section with no heading would show up in an outline
# [07:48] <Hixie> so always title your sections :-P
# [07:49] <jwalden> it seems reasonable for a post author to think that there's an implicit section around his post's content; maybe that's just relying too much on the exact format of the blog templates, but it's what I'd expect had I not ginned this up on my own
# [07:50] <Hixie> i don't understand why you can't rely on there being an implicit section
# [07:51] <Hixie> either you write your content as "bla bla intro bla bla <h2>subsection</h2> subbla subbla" or you write it as "bla bla intro bla bla <section> <h1>subsection</h1> subbla subbla</section>"
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# [12:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: You got any outliner testcases?
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# [13:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: no
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# [14:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh, well that's lame
# [14:01] <jgraham> :)
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# [15:06] <gsnedders> Is this another address for Philip TAYLOR?
# [15:08] <Philip`> I don't think it's a new one
# [15:14] <jgraham> Seen it before
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# [15:49] <rubys> Anybody have any idea why Chrome and Safari clip the image in the lower right on this page? http://intertwingly.net/blog/ Opera and Firefox3 display it without clipping. IE8 ignores it.
# [15:51] <Alkarex> rubys: It is not only clipped, but also not the same size
# [15:52] <rubys> agreed
# [15:57] <Alkarex> rubys: Changing your viewbox to e.g. viewBox="-10 -10 150 250" makes it completely visible in Chrome
# [16:00] <Alkarex> rubys: Seems to be only SVG and not CSS related
# [16:02] <rubys> that same image appears elsewhere on the page.. intact.
# [16:03] <Alkarex> Something to do with units maybe?
# [16:05] <rubys> I guess the real question is: who is "right"?
# [16:07] <Alkarex> rubys: Hum, it is interesting to see the differences between the browsers when setting <svg width="100%" height="100%">
# [16:07] <jgraham> Does anyone have html5lib svn installed? Assuming they can run the unit tests, which version of simplejson do they have? I seem to be getting character encoding realted errors on a clean checkout
# [16:07] <Alkarex> rubys: with 100% 100% it stays within the dimensions defined by CSS in Firefox, but not in Chrome
# [16:10] <Alkarex> rubys: Ok, with 100% 100% it works also in Chrome when defining height in CSS
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# [16:16] <rubys> Weird... adding height to css but not changing the svg causes it to be clipped in both directions.
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# [16:25] <Alkarex> rubys: works ok with, in CSS footer svg {height:14em;} and in SVG <SVG width="100%" height="100%" viewBox="0 0 160 160"> and <g stroke="#940" transform="scale(1.5)"> :-P
# [16:26] <Philip`> rubys: You could replace it with a PNG image
# [16:26] <Alkarex> Philip`: It would not be funny
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# [16:29] <Alkarex> Today, I came accross DotBot: http://www.dotnetdotcom.org/ They are crawling the Web, and have a free database to download (68GB so far). Could be useful to make usage statistics
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# [16:33] <Philip`> Alkarex: That looks pretty interesting
# [16:34] <Philip`> Maybe it would be nice if they could store the data on a public Amazon EBS disk, so people can mount it into an EC2 machine and process it without having to download the data...
# [16:35] <Alkarex> Philip`: They seem to be welcoming comments and suggestions
# [16:38] <Alkarex> rubys: my modified code seems to give the precise same results in Opera, Chrome and Firefox
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# [17:12] <jgraham> Hmm, does the dotbot thing really use null seperated fields? Isn't that rather easy to confuse? I guess they must be escaping the content somehow but they don't obviously say how
# [17:16] <takkaria> yknow, the big benefit to reading public-html on the archives is that the urge to reply is greatly reduced
# [17:18] <annevk5> jgraham, yeah, would be nice to know actually how much content uses null bytes
# [17:19] <Philip`> annevk5: Lots does
# [17:19] <Philip`> including all the pages encoded in UTF-16
# [17:20] <Philip`> and all the PNG and JPEGs
# [17:21] <Philip`> *PNGs
# [17:21] <Philip`> and PDFs
# [17:21] <Philip`> etc
# [17:21] <Philip`> many of which are likely to be mislabeled as text/html
# [17:21] <annevk5> hmm, true
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# [17:36] <takkaria> ah, the urge to post got too great
# [17:36] <takkaria> ah well
# [17:38] * gsnedders is surprised to find takkaria has only emailed public-html three times
# [17:39] <takkaria> oh, it's more than that
# [17:39] <takkaria> I've just used different email addresses
# [17:39] <gsnedders> Ah, and use Andrew in the From field
# [17:39] <gsnedders> Just searching for sidwell turns up 53 matches
# [17:40] <takkaria> I keep quiet, since most of the time I just add more noise to noise. :)
# [17:40] <gsnedders> takkaria: I like the last thing on that list
# [17:40] <gsnedders> takkaria: Your analogies will certainly be wrong, according to others on the list.
# [17:41] <takkaria> well, they're wrong :)
# [17:43] * gsnedders sighs and dares look at the amount of red written on his draft computing project
# [17:43] <takkaria> I had a terrifying dream last night
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# [17:43] <gsnedders> takkaria: Did it involve getting a job?
# [17:43] <gsnedders> I ought to get one of those.
# [17:44] <takkaria> no, it involved resitting GCSEs
# [17:44] <gsnedders> Okay, interesting dream…
# [17:50] <gsnedders> takkaria: Are you going to expand on that, or was that it?
# [17:51] * jgraham always dreams that he has to resit his German GCSE when he has that kind of dream
# [17:52] <jgraham> And obviously I haven't learnt any words
# [17:52] <jgraham> (in the dream)
# [17:52] * Philip` usually dreams of more interesting things than GCSEs, e.g. leaping out through the cockpit window of an AT-ST
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# [17:53] <takkaria> gsnedders: that was pretty much all of it. I had to do an extra year at high school and it was just bad, bad voodoo really
# [17:53] * gsnedders has an absurd number of dreams involving drugs
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# [17:55] <takkaria> legal or illegal?
# [17:55] <gsnedders> takkaria: Both
# [17:55] <takkaria> fun times
# [17:56] * gsnedders realizes he probably ought to buy something to wear for ball
# [17:57] <gsnedders> Biggest question is whether I wear a kilt or not
# [17:58] <takkaria> I recommend corset, kilt and heels
# [17:58] <gsnedders> I don't think that'll go down overly well
# [17:59] <takkaria> shame
# [17:59] <gsnedders> Also, the girl I'm going with probably wouldn't overly appove…
# [17:59] <gsnedders> *approve
# [17:59] <gsnedders> Even if she has, like most of my friends, concluded that almost all purposes I am a girl.
# [18:02] * gsnedders also has no faith in his ability to dance in heals
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# [20:01] <Lachy> gsnedders, is it common for people to wear kilts to balls in Scotland?
# [20:01] <gsnedders> Lachy: yes
# [20:01] <Lachy> wow. They look so aweful. Why?!
# [20:01] <gsnedders> But for guys to where corsets and heels? No.
# [20:01] <Lachy> haha
# [20:02] <gsnedders> Lachy: Ask any friend of mine. They certainly won't say they look awful.
# [20:02] <Lachy> I'd like to see a photo of you wearing a kilt, corset and heels.
# [20:02] <gsnedders> (where friend implies female)
# [20:03] <gsnedders> Oh dear…
# [20:03] <gsnedders> Last time I got dared such a thing I ended up having green hair to a ceilidh
# [20:03] <gsnedders> s/to/at/
# [20:03] <Lachy> what's a ceilidh?
# [20:03] <gsnedders> Exactly what Wikipedia says it is.
# [20:05] <Lachy> ok, so it's just a dance.
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# [20:10] <takkaria> not any dance
# [20:11] <gsnedders> It has to be some type of Gaelic dancing
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# [21:33] <Lachy> gsnedders, the documentation for Automagic Bibliography doesn't mention anything about the / and / comments that need to be in the HTML file
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# [21:59] <Lachy> gsnedders, the documentation also fails to mention that [[foo]] is an informative reference and that [[!foo]] is a normaitive referecne.
# [22:03] <jgraham> Kilts are aweful. They inspire awe.
# [22:04] <jgraham> Wearing one shows reall balls. Often literally.
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# [22:21] <gsnedders> Lachy: Email, please
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# Session Close: Mon Mar 23 00:00:00 2009

The end :)