/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 23 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:12] <annevk3> http://www.thespanner.co.uk/2009/03/20/html5-xss/
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  7. # [00:21] <Lachy> that same xss technique can be used with many of the new event attributes on other elements, given the abillity to inject such elements into another site. The solution is for sites to use whitelist based filtering that only allows known, safe elements and attributes
  8. # [00:28] <Philip`> http://sla.ckers.org/forum/read.php?12,8085,27026#msg-27026
  9. # [00:28] <Philip`> refers to http://php-ids.org/
  10. # [00:29] <Philip`> where the idea seems to be act as a layer that detects dodgy requests, to prevent people exploiting XSS holes
  11. # [00:29] <Philip`> (where XSS holes are caused by forgetting to escape output, so the idea of whitelists is irrelevant because you weren't intending to let people output any sort of HTML at all)
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  13. # [00:48] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/web-demo.xhtml
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  30. # [04:14] <Hixie> Lachy: kilts look great dude, what are you talking about
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  37. # [05:43] <annodomini> What happened to the database specification that (I seem to recall) was a part of HTML5?
  38. # [05:43] <annodomini> The only reference I can find is openDatabase in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-window-object
  39. # [05:45] <doublec> annodomini, this? http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/
  40. # [05:45] <annodomini> doublec: Yeah, that's it.
  41. # [05:46] <annodomini> I didn't realize it had been split out.
  42. # [05:46] <doublec> there's a post in the whatwg list about some of the things that have been split out
  43. # [05:50] <annodomini> Yeah, I see that now. It didn't mention "database" or "sql", so I didn't find it when I searched for those.
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  48. # [06:14] <annodomini> Has there been any discussion of adding a mechanism (with appropriate security features) for reading and writing files from the user's filesystem?
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  50. # [06:22] <takkaria> there has been briefly, but it's generally pretty quickly dismissed
  51. # [06:22] <takkaria> why would you want to?
  52. # [06:28] <annodomini> To implement an html editor directly in html, so that it could be portably used across browsers.
  53. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> annodomini: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/fileio/fileIO.htm
  54. # [06:33] <annodomini> MikeSmith: Looks like the kind of thing I'm thinking of. What's the status of this? Has it been discussed seriously? Implemented anywhere?
  55. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> annodomini: it is just a proposal -- an individual editor's draft that doesn't have an official status at the W3C
  56. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> Opera proposal
  57. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> Opera may already actually implement something like it in Opera Mobile
  58. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> as far as discussion, there was some limited discussion, but Apple and Mozilla don't seem interested in implementing it
  59. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> annodomini: that guy to ask about it is virtuelv
  60. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> when he wakes up
  61. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> he wrote it
  62. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> he's in Oslo
  63. # [06:37] <annodomini> MikeSmith: Thanks. I've found this thread that I'm reading through: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008May/0065.html
  64. # [06:46] <annodomini> Yeah, looks like the security issues are pretty thorny (as expected), and this proposal doesn't do a good job of dealing with them.
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  74. # [08:01] * virtuelv reads backlog
  75. # [08:01] <virtuelv> file io in itself is not a risk
  76. # [08:02] <virtuelv> it is the binding between your system and the interfaces
  77. # [08:03] <virtuelv> (and no, "my" proposal didn't try to deal with it in the web context, given that I at first never intended it for the web)
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  89. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: fwiw, might help if the draft actually made it clear that it's not intended for the web
  90. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> nice
  91. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> oops
  92. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: since the abstract starts out with "This document describes an interface for an abstract File I/O interface where web applications can interact with a file system..."
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  100. # [10:31] <annevk3> Hixie, "half a driver's" -> "have a driver's"
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  102. # [10:37] <Hixie> oops thanks
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  105. # [10:42] <Lachy> Hixie, what's in an earthquake kit, and why would anyone steal it? (re http://twitter.com/Hixie/status/1371054800 )
  106. # [10:44] <Lachy> Hixie, also, how did you manage to get tircd up and running? I tried that about a week or two ago, but without success. My IRC client just wouldn't connect to localhost
  107. # [10:47] <Philip`> It's an earthquake *prevention* kit, according to http://ln.hixie.ch/
  108. # [10:47] <Philip`> I really can't imagine how that would work
  109. # [10:48] <Philip`> Maybe it contains an awful lot of duct tape, so you can stick the continental plates together and stop them wobbling against each other?
  110. # [10:49] * jgraham wonders how an adoption agecy algorithm helps when your car has been broken into
  111. # [10:50] <annevk3> Philip`, how would any kind of tape help when they're pushing against each other?
  112. # [10:53] <Lachy> annevk3, obviously the tape would only help in the cases where they're pulling away from each other
  113. # [10:53] <Philip`> annevk3: There's no problem with the pushing because that's a nice stable non-quakey state - the problem is when they start sliding
  114. # [10:54] <Lachy> Philip`, no, when they're pushing together hard enough, they start to push upwards and make mountains
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  117. # [11:15] <jgraham> Hixie: More to the point, surely if everyone involved fainted whilst climbing you could have a more serious accident than you suggest? After all the belayer is the only thing preventing the rope from running free so if the climber were to fall whilst the belayer was not holding the dead rope, you could fall the height climbed.
  118. # [11:17] <Philip`> What if you were climbing and then a dragon suddenly flew in and ate you?
  119. # [11:17] <Philip`> (That seems similarly likely to everyone fainting simultaneously)
  120. # [11:18] <jgraham> They might be characters in a Jane Austen novel who were libable to all swoon if they saw a particuarly rich, unattached, gentleman
  121. # [11:19] <Philip`> Do characters in Jane Austen novels often go rock climbing?
  122. # [11:19] <gsnedders> Sadly not
  123. # [11:20] <Philip`> That's a shame
  124. # [11:21] <jgraham> (it seems more plausible that your belayer would faint and that, in a panic, you would loose your grip on the rock)
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  126. # [11:44] * Philip` imagines the discussion of broken IRIs in Atom would be more useful if people had test results of how feed readers parse URL-ish strings, or data about how many feeds have invalid IRIs
  127. # [11:45] <annevk3> I'm not sure
  128. # [11:46] <jgraham> Philip`: There is a well defined data-gathering mechanism for HTML 5 which is to say, people ay things that should be qualified with data and then you provide the data
  129. # [11:46] <annevk3> My main point is that I don't want two URL functions in a browser doing essentially the same thing and it's pretty clear that we need one for HTML that does it like HTML5
  130. # [11:47] <annevk3> I also wouldn't really want two URL functions in a feed reader and since feed readers ought to handle HTML...
  131. # [11:48] <Philip`> Web browsers already have a zillion functions (many for doing similar things in slightly different ways), so two functions for parsing URLs wouldn't hurt much
  132. # [11:49] <annevk3> Every one of those that can be avoided hurts in developer and QA time. Security analysis cost, etc.
  133. # [11:50] <annevk3> I'ts one of the reasons we're still trying to eliminate quirks if feasible. (Either by standardizing on them or removing them.)
  134. # [11:50] <Philip`> It hurts but not a huge amount, and it has to be balanced against the cost of changing every other spec and software product that uses URIs in non-HTML contexts
  135. # [11:50] * jgraham grumbles about standards bodies that publish their standards in non-standard formats
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  147. # [12:11] <Lachy> Hixie, it the status section of the web storage spec, it says to send mail to public-webapps-comments and links to the non-existent archives. It should be public-webapps
  148. # [12:12] <annevk3> Philip`, and that in turn has to be balanced against bugs in those software products and specs and how much of those bugs would be fixed by changing libraries and URL specs
  149. # [12:12] <jgraham> Is Julian's argument that allowing whitespace in URIs is bad because authors that choose to use it may experience poor syntax highlighting? Because that seems like it could be easily fixed by choosing not to use it
  150. # [12:12] * Lachy wonders who Hish is and why he has to have a name messes with my IRC's autocomplete for "Hi<tab>"
  151. # [12:13] <annevk3> Highlighting and autolinking fails all over the place anyway due to most code not properly taking care of punctation (and even then it could be wrong if a URL actually did end with say a dot or comma)
  152. # [12:15] * Philip` notes that you already have to handle spaces in URIs in order to write an HTTP client that can retrieve web pages, regardless of anything to do with HTML
  153. # [12:15] <annevk3> Philip`, why is that?
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  156. # [12:19] <Philip`> annevk3: Because people put spaces in Location headers
  157. # [12:19] <Philip`> e.g. http://www.usafa.af.mil/ returns 302 with "Location: index.cfm?catname=AFA Homepage"
  158. # [12:20] <annevk3> cheers
  159. # [12:20] <Philip`> (That broke that page in my dmoz downloader since HttpClient throws an exception on invalid URIs)
  160. # [12:23] <Philip`> http://www.flightsimulator.nl/ gives "Location: RunScript.asp?Article_type=General%20News&p=ASP\Pg0.asp" where the \ is apparently illegal
  161. # [12:24] <Philip`> and there's other with "|" and "[" and "]"
  162. # [12:24] <Philip`> *others
  163. # [12:25] <Philip`> Oops, not true, the "[" and "]" weren't in redirects, they were just in dmoz's list
  164. # [12:27] <Philip`> (which I suppose is a separate issue - anything parsing dmoz's RDF dump of site listings needs to deal with invalid URIs too)
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  170. # [13:54] <annevk3> I wonder whether http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Mar/0102 and co still apply. Stuff Hixie wrote back then on normalization code no longer really applies I think. Every browser as code for that now.
  171. # [14:01] <annevk3> Ah, the problem is with step 1.
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  175. # [14:04] <annevk3> Step 1 in RFC 3987 that is.
  176. # [14:04] <annevk3> HTML5 deals with that by not following RFC 3987 at all there.
  177. # [14:05] <annevk3> I doubt any software deals with that properly.
  178. # [14:05] * jgraham wonders wwhat Joshue's point is
  179. # [14:05] <annevk3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005May/0024.html has more details by the way.
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  181. # [14:07] <annevk3> jgraham, I think part of his point is that ARIA makes things more complex for disabled people by allowing a link to be marked up as button.
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  183. # [14:08] <jgraham> annevk3: That seemed to be the case to me as well
  184. # [14:09] <jgraham> Isn't this exactly what was predicted would happen?
  185. # [14:09] <annevk3> Yes it was, but since HTML5 did not happen at the W3C nobody believed in it...
  186. # [14:09] <annevk3> And everyone else thought IE would never be updated so we'd forever need a hack for IE6 rather than hoping everyone would implement 'appearance' and such one day.
  187. # [14:11] <annevk3> I sometimes have the cynical thought that these people are paid to consult on these bolt-on accessibility things and therefore would never ever denounce them.
  188. # [14:15] <jgraham> I would never ever think anything like that. Never.
  189. # [14:15] <jgraham> In related newsm I still believe that sarcasm can work on the internet, despite available evidence
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  191. # [14:16] <annevk3> jgraham, we just need implied start and end tags that work reliably across all readers so they can use custom style sheets to hide it if desired
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  196. # [14:29] <hsivonen> validator.nu goes down for a kernel update reboot. html5.validator.nu stays up.
  197. # [14:31] <hsivonen> how do I tell via dump() if two scripts run in the context of the same global scope object without relying on variables set by me?
  198. # [14:31] <hsivonen> is there anything a script can read that is a different hash in different global scopes but the same hash is the same scope?
  199. # [14:32] * sid0|afk is now known as sid0
  200. # [14:33] <Lachy> hsivonen, do you mean in JavaScript, or some other language?
  201. # [14:34] <hsivonen> Lachy: browser-hosted JS
  202. # [14:34] <hsivonen> or Gecko-hosted JS even
  203. # [14:36] <annevk3> wrong channel?
  204. # [14:36] <hsivonen> perhaps
  205. # [14:36] <annevk3> though admittedly a lot of Gecko people are in this channel nowadays :)
  206. # [14:37] <Philip`> Sounds like a bad sci-fi movie plot - Invasion of the Gecko People!
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  209. # [14:48] <hsivonen> html5.validator.nu goes down for kernel update (and may be insanely slow to come back up). validator.nu is up.
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  220. # [15:35] <hsivonen> I wonder how MS intends to maintain their mode switching blacklist using telemetry when sites that are on the blacklist don't get the compat view button in the release version of IE8
  221. # [15:39] * Joins: davidb_ (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1242458527.dsl.bell.ca)
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  226. # [15:52] <annevk3> Now while the HTML5 URL handling is quirky in one respect handling href="bjo&#x000308;rn" the same regardless of how the document was originally encoded makes a whole lot of sense to me.
  227. # [15:52] * Joins: billmason (n=bmason@69.30.57.90)
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  229. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I got a patch ready for http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2889&to=2890 "Rename attributes for form submission to avoid clashes with existing usage."
  230. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> action -> formaction on input and button elements
  231. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> etc.
  232. # [15:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: great!
  233. # [15:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll redeploy V.nu after you've checked in.
  234. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> OK
  235. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I'll check it in now
  236. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I already smoke-tested it against my local v.nu install and seems I didn't miss anything
  237. # [15:59] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1242458287.dsl.bell.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  238. # [16:03] <hsivonen> ok. I think I have IE8 mode switching figured out
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  242. # [16:08] * zcorpan informs the xml core wg about web addresses
  243. # [16:08] <annevk3> zcorpan, I hope you're enjoying this
  244. # [16:09] <zcorpan> i've tried to ignore it mostly
  245. # [16:10] <zcorpan> although i realized that the xml core wg have spent the last couple of months (at least) discussing in telecons that they should update all xml specs in existence to reference LEIRI
  246. # [16:10] <annevk3> If CSS uses HTML5 URL handling everything should be fine there.
  247. # [16:11] <annevk3> Though CSS might be fine if it enforced UTF-8ness for the query bit
  248. # [16:11] <annevk3> Just like XMLHttpRequest
  249. # [16:12] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.37)
  250. # [16:14] <zcorpan> i wonder why some people argue along the lines of "why change a published spec?" instead of "why have both parseURL(url, encoding) and parseLEIRI(url) when having just he former will do fine"
  251. # [16:14] <svl> Hixie: huh, I tried part of that trick once (trying to open the gate going into a garage, as the one at the exit lane was broken), but it wouldn't give a ticket (nor open, which was the vexing part) without the weight of a car on the sensor before the gate.
  252. # [16:15] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  253. # [16:15] <annevk3> zcorpan, maybe we should form a club
  254. # [16:18] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-e9b340bc3c2c3793)
  255. # [16:19] <jgraham> We could have some sort of principle that says implementors are more important than spec authors
  256. # [16:20] <zcorpan> hmm the boolean attribute discussion reminds me of aria
  257. # [16:20] <zcorpan> i think aria allows values like "undefined" and "false"
  258. # [16:21] <annevk3> fun
  259. # [16:21] <zcorpan> consistency++
  260. # [16:21] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: I think I've now completed the IE8 flow chart except I haven't been able to verify the position of the MS-maintained blacklist: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ie8-mode.pdf
  261. # [16:22] <hsivonen> I think the most interesting bit is the Almost Standard Doctype? box on lower right
  262. # [16:23] <hsivonen> that is, *quirky* doctype plus X-UA-Compatible: IE=8 means IE8 *standards* mode
  263. # [16:23] <annevk3> <meta> overrides HTTP? sweet
  264. # [16:23] <hsivonen> annevk3: yeah
  265. # [16:23] <hsivonen> annevk3: See Ruby's Postulate :-)
  266. # [16:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i filed a bug about the combination quirky doctype and ie8 meta :(
  267. # [16:24] <annevk3> you and you're references I need to Google each time :p
  268. # [16:24] <annevk3> but yeah, that sounds about right
  269. # [16:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: Highlighting the shortest path to standards mode (any maybe other modes) would be good
  270. # [16:24] <annevk3> we actually encountered such a bug the other day with a site declaring euc_kr in HTTP and Opera and Safari being the only browsers that recognize it as euc-kr and therefore ignoring the more correct <meta>
  271. # [16:25] <Philip`> hsivonen: Have you looked at IE=EmulateIE8?
  272. # [16:25] <annevk3> (Opera and Safari are correct per Unicode, for those who care)
  273. # [16:25] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  274. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: I haven't
  275. # [16:25] <Philip`> It seems logical that that'd be equivalent to not giving any X-UA-Compatible, therefore it must be the case that it does something weird and crazy
  276. # [16:26] <annevk3> ouch, s/you're/your/
  277. # [16:26] <jgraham> The whole HTTP thing is a victory for theoretical utility over practical reality
  278. # [16:26] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  279. # [16:26] <hsivonen> aargh. I forgot IE=IE7
  280. # [16:26] <jgraham> Maybe CS should have a required psycology component
  281. # [16:26] <jgraham> Or at least a required HCI class
  282. # [16:27] <annevk3> I wonder how much failure of HTTP is due to the perceived need of content negotiation
  283. # [16:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: aren't there two IE7 modes? one using the old engine and one using the new engine?
  284. # [16:27] <annevk3> I'm pretty sure that's what got us stuff like Content-Type
  285. # [16:27] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  286. # [16:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: I thought the old one was just what you got if you didn't install IE8
  287. # [16:27] <annevk3> before that we had magic bytes, such as <plaintext>
  288. # [16:27] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  289. # [16:28] <jgraham> annevk3: Well there is also the use cases like being able to send feeds as text/plain for debugging, for example
  290. # [16:28] <jgraham> which HTTP is designed to allow
  291. # [16:28] <zcorpan> Philip`: i thought ie8 had two ie7 modes
  292. # [16:28] <annevk3> jgraham, just move Content-Type to the content and call it <plaintext>
  293. # [16:28] <zcorpan> "IE7" and "EmulateIE7"
  294. # [16:29] <jgraham> annevk3: Doesn't really work if your ontent doesn't support it
  295. # [16:29] <jgraham> *content
  296. # [16:29] <Philip`> zcorpan: I remember reading that IE7 makes it render in IE7-bug-mode always, whereas EmulateIE7 makes it render in IE5-bug-mode if there's a quirky doctype else in IE7-bug-mode
  297. # [16:29] <annevk3> Anyway, "too late now" This will be my meme of the day.
  298. # [16:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: as far as I can tell, IE=7 means IE7 standards and IE=EmulateIE7 means perform doctype sniffing like IE7 and decide quirks or IE7 standards
  299. # [16:29] <Philip`> (and the Emulate versions are preferred so that pages will be more compatible with other browsers)
  300. # [16:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  301. # [16:30] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  302. # [16:30] <Philip`> (but people started promoting and using the feature before the Emulate options were added, so people use a random mixture of the two)
  303. # [16:30] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  304. # [16:31] <annevk3> It would be nice to have a Web-based version of that flowchart
  305. # [16:31] <hsivonen> annevk3: OmniGraffle's SVG export costs extra and sucked last I checked
  306. # [16:32] <hsivonen> annevk3: I intend to write this as <dl> some day
  307. # [16:32] <annevk3> I agree that SVG versions of flowcharts are never really great.
  308. # [16:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: there's no EmulateIE8
  309. # [16:33] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  310. # [16:33] <Philip`> hsivonen: There is in "strings -el mshtml.dll"
  311. # [16:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm not sure if that's legal in my country. :-(
  312. # [16:35] <annevk3> So the insane algorithm leads to a total of 4 rendering modes? Ouch!
  313. # [16:35] <annevk3> hsivonen, you can however legally reverse engineer the value no?
  314. # [16:35] * jgraham is not sure if anything is legal. Which seems like a problem somehow
  315. # [16:36] <hsivonen> I believe I'm on solid ground doing blackbox poking.
  316. # [16:37] * hsivonen starts revising /doctype/
  317. # [16:38] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2009Mar/0012.html
  318. # [16:39] <annevk3> zcorpan, well yes, but that's not a point against not making all things consistent, right?
  319. # [16:40] * Quits: atw (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  320. # [16:47] <hsivonen> I guess the HTML5 doctype is out of the bag, so I might as well recommend it.
  321. # [16:48] <hsivonen> this marks the first change to my doctype advice since late 2000.
  322. # [16:52] * sid0|afk is now known as sid0
  323. # [16:56] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-165-188.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  324. # [16:59] <annevk3> Given http://www.intertwingly.net/slides/2004/devcon/ it surprises me Sam is now advocating some kind of QNames solution in HTML
  325. # [17:00] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  326. # [17:01] <annevk3> http://www.intertwingly.net/slides/2004/devcon/96.html
  327. # [17:03] <annevk3> http://www.intertwingly.net/slides/2004/devcon/107.html "You won't find reality in in any specification" true, though at least we have progressed somewhat into writing specs that could become reality some day
  328. # [17:03] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@80.101.46.164) ("Disconnected...")
  329. # [17:03] <annevk3> Re-reading that presentation still makes me laugh. It's a good pointer for people who say things are simple.
  330. # [17:06] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  331. # [17:07] <Philip`> hsivonen: I'm not sure it is here but I know there's stuff in the copyright law about allowing reverse engineering for interoperability so I just kind of assume it's probably okay and nobody's going to care
  332. # [17:20] * Joins: mal (n=mal@nat/google/x-67092f90513f6d16)
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  337. # [17:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: something went wrong with V.nu redeployment. I'll investigate in the morning.
  338. # [17:42] <hsivonen> I've updated http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ ; reviews welcome
  339. # [17:42] <hsivonen> the position I'm taking with X-UA-Compatible is that I don't recommend IE=8
  340. # [17:44] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-aa49548448c45f81)
  341. # [17:45] <Philip`> hsivonen: "inadequete"
  342. # [17:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. that typo has been there for years...
  343. # [17:49] <Philip`> You should use publishing tools that report a fatal error if there are unresolved spell-checker failures
  344. # [17:50] <Lachy> hsivonen, my position on X-UA-Compatible is that you should use IE=Edge, unless you need compatibility with an older version of IE other than the latest. So IE=7 is ok if IE7 mode is needed for your site. But I agree that IE=8 should be avoided, at least until IE9 comes out
  345. # [17:51] <annevk3> my position is that you should not use it
  346. # [17:51] <Lachy> annevk3, if you need to use it, like when you're stuck on a blacklisted domain
  347. # [17:52] <annevk3> then I'd create a US company and sue MS
  348. # [17:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: if your site works in IE7 mode but not in IE8 mode, your site is broken and needs to be fixed
  349. # [17:52] * annevk3 blinks
  350. # [17:52] <Lachy> hsivonen, sure. But the whole point of X-UA-Compatible is that it gives you time to make that transition to more standards compliant code
  351. # [17:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: oh well. editing
  352. # [17:53] <annevk3> hsivonen, a TOC would help
  353. # [17:54] <Philip`> annevk3: Rather than suing them, you could just get your domain administrator to follow the steps to get removed from the list
  354. # [17:54] <annevk3> that's not nearly dramatic enough
  355. # [17:55] <Philip`> More likely to succeed, though
  356. # [17:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: fixed, thanks
  357. # [17:56] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  358. # [17:57] <annevk3> Philip`, for some value of succeed
  359. # [17:57] <hsivonen> Do they use the Public Suffix List for stuff like .co.uk?
  360. # [17:58] <hsivonen> I've been trying to get iki.fi on the Public Suffix List, but the people in charge at IKI are IETF-oriented.
  361. # [17:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: They use some kind of list (IETldCache) that contains stuff like police.uk, nhs.uk, kent.sch.uk, though it doesn't have uk or co.uk
  362. # [18:00] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/data/ie8-tlds.txt
  363. # [18:01] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  364. # [18:01] <annevk3> that doesn't look nearly complete enough
  365. # [18:02] <Philip`> hsivonen: (That's stored in the same binary format as the compatibility domain list)
  366. # [18:02] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  367. # [18:02] <annevk3> why is +ACE-nu.nl listed twice and what does it mean?
  368. # [18:02] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-aa49548448c45f81) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  369. # [18:02] <Philip`> Don't ask me :-)
  370. # [18:02] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-7b7fef98bb1996cf)
  371. # [18:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: why is +ACE-nu.nl listed twice and what does it mean?
  372. # [18:03] <Philip`> This is just the complete list of strings from C:\Users\Whoever\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\IETldCache\index.dat
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  376. # [18:21] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  379. # [18:25] <annevk3> wow http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Where-the-Wild-Web-Things-Are.aspx
  380. # [18:26] <annevk3> -- http://twitter.com/collinjackson/status/1376236042
  381. # [18:30] <Philip`> Looks like all the literal "&lt;"s and "&gt;s" got mangled into "<" and ">" in that blog post
  382. # [18:30] <Philip`> which makes it unnecessarily confusing
  383. # [18:31] <gavin> needs more XSLT
  384. # [18:32] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@91.156.60.13)
  385. # [18:33] <Hixie> Lachy: an earthquake emergency kit is like a regular emergency kit (has food rations, a first aid kit, a mechanical radio, etc), but for people in earthquake zones
  386. # [18:33] <Hixie> Philip`: an earthquake prevention kit is an earthquake emergency kit, but it prevents earthquakes because naturally you'd only experience a serious earthquake when unprepared
  387. # [18:34] <Hixie> jgraham: while climbing if the belayer faints the grigri will lock and the rope will stop moving.
  388. # [18:37] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  389. # [18:37] <Lachy> Hixie, does an earthquake prevent kit also prevent other geological disasters?
  390. # [18:38] <jcranmer> Lachy: it should protect from volcanoes as well
  391. # [18:38] <Lachy> I'm just wondering if there's a correlation between your prevention kit being stolen and the volcano erruption that wasn't prevented in Alaska today.
  392. # [18:39] <Hixie> svl: interesting, the guy's car was in fact on the sensor, maybe you're right
  393. # [18:39] <jcranmer> things like tornadoes, floods, and hurricanes need completely different prevention mechanisms
  394. # [18:40] <Hixie> Lachy: i have no idea. i would imagine it wouldn't prevent any disasters except those that it would actually help me with, so i guess it's a coincidence
  395. # [18:42] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
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  398. # [18:52] <Hixie> http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/86ogf/multiple_web_technologies_on_one_page/
  399. # [18:53] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.29)
  400. # [18:59] <Philip`> "that site is craptastic example of how NOT to make an html 5 site" - clearly all new web technologies are part of HTML 5
  401. # [19:00] <Hixie> yeah we need to figure out some new branding mechanism
  402. # [19:00] <Hixie> i'm torn between "web 3.0" and "web 5.0"
  403. # [19:01] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  404. # [19:01] <Hixie> i'm thinking maybe we should just define "web 3.0" as a subset of the new stuff and have three levels from web 3.0 to web 5.0
  405. # [19:01] <Hixie> where web 5.0 is all our new techs
  406. # [19:02] <Philip`> Why not pave the cowpaths and call everything HTML 5?
  407. # [19:06] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  408. # [19:06] <gavin> I think you should pave all foreseeable future cowpaths
  409. # [19:07] <Philip`> Turn all the cow fields into giant parking lots
  410. # [19:14] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  411. # [19:14] <annevk3> Hixie, imo Web X does not make much sense if it does not also include HTTP, CSS, etc.
  412. # [19:15] <Philip`> "Web X" suffers from the negative opinions that exist towards Web 2.0
  413. # [19:15] <annevk3> Hixie, I do not really have better suggestions though
  414. # [19:15] <Hixie> annevk3: it would include HTTP, CSS, etc
  415. # [19:16] <Hixie> in particular it would include the new CSS animation stuff at some level
  416. # [19:16] <Hixie> Philip`: calling things HTML5 leads to people being confused when they look at the spec called HTML5
  417. # [19:16] <annevk3> In that case I suppose it makes sense to redefine "Web X" to refer to its technologies rather than type of usage
  418. # [19:25] <annevk3> Hixie, is the IETF meeting going on now as well?
  419. # [19:25] <Hixie> i think so, yes
  420. # [19:25] <Hixie> i'm not going to that
  421. # [19:25] <Hixie> i'm going to some informal thing on wednesday with sam, lisa, dan, and others
  422. # [19:26] <annevk3> ah ok
  423. # [19:26] <annevk3> DanC mentioned WebSockets in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Mar/0140.html so I assumed you'd be there. Clearly this doesn't work that way :)
  424. # [19:27] <Hixie> speaking of the ietf
  425. # [19:27] <Hixie> did you know
  426. # [19:27] <Hixie> that since meetings aren't supposed to be productive
  427. # [19:27] <Hixie> they actually prevent you from publishing anything while their meetings are going on?
  428. # [19:27] <Hixie> the official version of the websockets spec is falling behind because the ietf won't let me update it
  429. # [19:29] <annevk3> for websockets a WHATWG version would be nice I think, btw
  430. # [19:29] <annevk3> especially since text/plain is annoying to read
  431. # [19:29] <Hixie> holy crap! they turned off the blocking! woo, it just updated
  432. # [19:29] <Hixie> yeah i think i might do that
  433. # [19:30] <Hixie> gonna wait a bit to see what happens though
  434. # [19:30] <Hixie> i was thinking of just making an uber WHATWG spec with all the files that are in this source document in one place
  435. # [19:30] <Hixie> no, wait, it didn't update
  436. # [19:30] <Philip`> Maybe they block updates to make sure everyone at the meeting has time to read the same document so they can agree on what they're talking about, rather than some people reading this morning's version and some people reading last week's version and all getting confused
  437. # [19:30] <Hixie> wtf
  438. # [19:30] <Hixie> man the ietf is annoying
  439. # [19:31] <annevk3> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol is from Feb 25
  440. # [19:31] <Hixie> Philip`: maybe, but then the solution is to give up on meetings, not block progress even from those who aren't there
  441. # [19:31] <Hixie> i got an e-mail saying draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-05 is published
  442. # [19:31] <Hixie> but it doesn't seem to be
  443. # [19:32] <annevk3> 05? hmm, that vies me 03
  444. # [19:32] <annevk3> s/view/gives/
  445. # [19:32] <Hixie> yeah
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  463. # [20:34] <Hixie> wow
  464. # [20:34] <Hixie> tgbyhn deleted his entire reddit account
  465. # [20:35] <Hixie> it is telling i think that people who want to complain about html5 often only do so anonymously
  466. # [20:35] <Hixie> and refuse to back up their points when they are pressed
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  469. # [20:37] <annevk3> pointer to reddit thread?
  470. # [20:38] <virtuelv> annevk3: when someone deletes their account, their posts vanish
  471. # [20:38] <virtuelv> (sort of, you used to be able to recover them by appending /.rss to the url in question
  472. # [20:41] <Hixie> annevk3: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/85acf/microsoft_is_ignoring_web_standards_and_should/c08agbv
  473. # [20:41] <Hixie> in the future i'll always quote their messages in mine, i guess :-)
  474. # [20:46] <annevk3> http://www.reddit.com/user/tgbyhn still exists
  475. # [20:47] <svl> http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/85acf/microsoft_is_ignoring_web_standards_and_should/ has (most of) the deleted comments
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  483. # [21:12] <jgraham> Hixie: I had forgotton about the existence of grigris because I have only used one about once and most people I have spoken to consider them more dangerous than a normal belay device
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  485. # [21:13] <jgraham> The reason being that it is very hard to control most grigris when the climber is coming down
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  504. # [22:23] <Hixie> jgraham: doesn't seem that hard to me, but ok
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  509. # [22:33] <annevk3> I wonder what is supposed to be wrong with the desire to interoperate even in case of error.
  510. # [22:35] <Hixie> it's not pretty?
  511. # [22:36] <annevk3> Granted, reality often sucks.
  512. # [22:36] <Hixie> sometimes i kinda just want to be like "web standards development is not a game, if you're not willing to make hard choices that compromise spec purity when doing so is needed to make users have a better experience, get out of the water and get back into the wading pool"
  513. # [22:37] <Hixie> i'm so tired of having to argue with people who still seem to think the web is a research project
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  519. # [22:54] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: on the new http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ i think the phrase "(e.g. mit.edu!)" needs some external citation -- i read the irc backscroll so i know the reference, but other people wouldn't
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  521. # [22:59] <olliej> sicking: so one issue with the async lock for local storage (that i don't believe has been addressed) is what happens to closures that capture the localstorage reference
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  523. # [23:00] <sicking> olliej, i did in fact comment on that
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  526. # [23:01] <sicking> olliej, if the object passed to the callback is accessed after the callback has ended we need that to fail
  527. # [23:01] <sicking> olliej, and define how it fails
  528. # [23:01] <sicking> olliej, and define what happens if you access that object inside another callback (should the object get reenabled again, or should a new one be created on each callback)
  529. # [23:02] <sicking> olliej, the important part is accessing the storage after the callback is failing. The rest is less important IMHO, but needs to be defined
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  531. # [23:03] <olliej> sicking: that's what i was thinking -- sorry i must have missed that email
  532. # [23:03] <Hixie> btw if anyone is keeping track of examples of microsoft knowingly hurting web standards, note the way this e-mail was never actually followed up on, despite the promise therein: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Jun/0020.html
  533. # [23:03] <sicking> olliej, it was a long email :)
  534. # [23:03] <olliej> sicking: heh
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  537. # [23:10] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: another +1 for adding a table of contents, and perhaps auto-generating nested section numbers like html5 spec does
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  539. # [23:16] <mpilgrim> someone needs to make philip's ie8 blacklist into a web service
  540. # [23:17] <mpilgrim> validator.nu could hook into it to tell you what rendering mode IE8 would use for your site
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  544. # [23:24] <roc> Hixie: shouldn't someone follow up on that now?
  545. # [23:24] <sicking> Hixie, did they add API to support explicit locking and unlocking?
  546. # [23:25] <annevk3> they don't have that
  547. # [23:25] <annevk3> they have an event that is dispatched when stuff is written to disk
  548. # [23:25] <annevk3> and have some remainingStorage attribute
  549. # [23:25] <annevk3> that was in the latest beta/rc, things might have changed in final
  550. # [23:25] <roc> I thought they had a commit() method
  551. # [23:26] <roc> ISTR they removed remainingStorage
  552. # [23:26] <annevk3> they used to have that, yes
  553. # [23:26] <annevk3> ISTR?
  554. # [23:26] <roc> they took commit() out?
  555. # [23:26] <roc> I Seem To Recall
  556. # [23:26] <annevk3> to my knowledge the latest RC did have remainingStorage and did not have commit()
  557. # [23:28] <annevk3> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc197062(VS.85).aspx "confirms" that
  558. # [23:28] <roc> oh
  559. # [23:28] <roc> remainingSpace is no longer enumerable, but I guess it's still there
  560. # [23:28] <roc> After shipping the RC build we listened to feedback on our HTML 5 DOM storage implementation. We acted on this feedback by making two changes to IE8’s DOM storage implementation so that we match the HTML 5 spec. The first change is that we now return null and not undefined for keys that don’t exist in DOM storage. The second change is that we removed the length and remainingSpace properties when iterating DOM storage using a for..in statement.
  561. # [23:29] <annevk3> there was a lot more feedback, including how to make their XML backend non-well-formed
  562. # [23:30] <annevk3> what Hixie pointed out above, and how storagecommit was not defined anywhere
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  565. # [23:34] <Philip`> mpilgrim: I imagine the main difficulty is you'd have to run the service on a Windows machine with IE8 and automatic updates
  566. # [23:34] <Philip`> (and I only have Linux boxes)
  567. # [23:35] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be a pretty trivial service since you just embed Trident in your service and read res://iecompat.dll/iecompatdata.xml
  568. # [23:35] <Philip`> (unless that's IE-only)
  569. # [23:39] <gsnedders> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sneddon-atom-export-00.txt
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  571. # [23:45] <annevk3> I thought you were doing useful work on HTTP parsing? :p
  572. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Oh, I was. This is just closer to being able to be published :P
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  574. # Session Close: Tue Mar 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)