/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 24 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] <Hixie> roc: their begin() and commit() methods are not for threading
  4. # [00:07] <annevk3> (they don't have them anymore)
  5. # [00:07] <Hixie> oh they dropped those?
  6. # [00:07] <Hixie> interesting
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  8. # [00:08] <annevk3> I think begin() is implicit and commit() is prolly run at some timeout at which point they dispatch the storagecommit event.
  9. # [00:08] <Hixie> begin() is definitely not implicit
  10. # [00:08] <Hixie> they have no implicit locking
  11. # [00:08] <Hixie> that's one of the problems
  12. # [00:09] <annevk3> Well, they must have something now...
  13. # [00:09] <Hixie> why?
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  15. # [00:10] <Hixie> if you run the following two scripts in two different windows in IE8:
  16. # [00:10] <Hixie> localStorage.foo = 0; while (true) localStorage.foo = parseInt(localStorage.foo) + 1;
  17. # [00:10] <Hixie> var x = 0; while (localStorage.foo == localStorage.foo) x += 1; x
  18. # [00:10] <Hixie> the second will return.
  19. # [00:11] <Hixie> so they have no implicit cross-frame locking as far as i can tell
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  21. # [00:12] <annevk3> sorry, nm
  22. # [00:12] <roc> we don't want to follow IE8 down this road
  23. # [00:12] <annevk3> I'm tired from breaking my head over URLs
  24. # [00:13] <annevk3> and I've no real opinion on this anyway other than that I think it'd be a annoying if we changed localStorage again
  25. # [00:14] <Hixie> well IE8 doesn't implement the spec
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  28. # [00:17] <annevk3> Hixie, by that argument we can break <canvas>
  29. # [00:17] <annevk3> Hixie, afaict IE8 has a usuable impl
  30. # [00:17] <Hixie> oh i wasn't making an argument
  31. # [00:18] <Hixie> just an observation
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  33. # [00:18] <annevk3> they do not allow all possible key/value strings, they have a custom DOM attribute and event, the solution works poorly for multiple top-level browsing contexts, but other than that it pretty much just works as described
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  35. # [00:20] <Hixie> i don't think most authors will notice, sadly
  36. # [00:21] <annevk3> the multiple top-level browsing contexts part?
  37. # [00:21] <Hixie> any of those issues
  38. # [00:23] <annevk3> I'm sort of surprised neither Microsoft nor Google brought up the issues with localStorage and multiple processes
  39. # [00:23] <annevk3> (when it was re-designed)
  40. # [00:24] <Hixie> google is who did bring up the issue :-)
  41. # [00:24] <Hixie> though originally with workers
  42. # [00:24] <Hixie> it's not a HUGE problem with top-level browsing contexts
  43. # [00:24] <Hixie> just a bit of additional latency
  44. # [00:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: You just use pico from pine?
  45. # [00:25] <Hixie> hm?
  46. # [00:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: As a message editor?
  47. # [00:25] <gsnedders> (really random question)
  48. # [00:25] <Hixie> i just use pine
  49. # [00:25] <Hixie> occasionally escaping to emacs if things get complicated
  50. # [00:26] <gsnedders> pine opens up another program, by default pico, to write messages
  51. # [00:26] <Hixie> ok
  52. # [00:26] <Hixie> it says "PINE" at the top of my editor window
  53. # [00:26] <annevk3> Hixie, ah yeah, the spec mentions that already
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  55. # [00:27] <Philip`> About http://www.w3.org/mid/op.uq9oyuqd64w2qv@annevk-t60.oslo.opera.com : perhaps it would be useful to say what happens if you a.setAttribute('href', 'http://www.example.com/zero\u0000here/') since that seems more like what the question intended
  56. # [00:28] <annevk3> didn't I answer that too?
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  58. # [00:29] <annevk3> anyway, thinking about it some more I'm not sure that'd work either, though setting window.location might
  59. # [00:29] <Philip`> Oh, right, I didn't notice that sentence
  60. # [00:32] <Hixie> woo, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol now redirects to -05
  61. # [00:32] <Hixie> i wonder why that suddenly works again
  62. # [00:32] <Hixie> maybe my whining to them actually had an effect
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  64. # [00:43] <Philip`> Dotnetdotcom.org says they're in the process of putting their data on http://aws.amazon.com/publicdatasets/ , which should be good since you could process the data on EC2 without downloading anything
  65. # [00:44] <Philip`> (where "their data" is a 9 million page sample from a 7 billion page crawl)
  66. # [00:48] * gsnedders wonders whether uninstalling specific things is the right way to reduce clutter on this computer, with the amount of clutter, instead of uninstalling all and starting again
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  69. # [00:54] <mpilgrim> Philip` of course i was thinking of running the service on an app hosting provider like appengine and just updating it once a day from an auto-updating windows machine
  70. # [00:55] <mpilgrim> but i don't have an always-on windows machine, so i can't do it
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  73. # [00:59] <annevk3> are there any cool people still running Windows anyways?
  74. # [01:04] <Hixie> i wonder if the http people have complained to the ietf tools people about the submission tool using a GET request for posting confirmation
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  82. # [01:20] <annevk3> Hixie, arguably the twitter message should be prefixed with the actual spec it affects, not "HTML5" for all
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  86. # [01:35] <Hixie> annevk3: my script doesn't know which spec it affects
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  117. # [04:13] <heycam> Hixie, i don't think i'll get a chance to work on Web IDL this month, as i indicated earlier, so please adjust your expectations accordingly :)
  118. # [04:13] <heycam> (higher priority things have been taking up my time)
  119. # [04:14] <Hixie> k
  120. # [04:14] <Hixie> any idea what a more realistic ETA would be? (i prefer a pessimistic ETA, so that there is little chance of the timetable being wrong)
  121. # [04:16] <heycam> pessimistically, maybe july? i'd hope to get some time to allocate to it before then though.
  122. # [04:16] <Hixie> k
  123. # [04:17] * Hixie updates his timetable
  124. # [04:18] <Hixie> what's your job situation these days? still doing your PhD?
  125. # [04:18] <heycam> that's right
  126. # [04:19] <heycam> working hard to get the "work" done so i can concentrate on writing up
  127. # [04:19] <Hixie> cool
  128. # [04:20] <heycam> speaking of which, better get back to it, spent too much of this morning replying to emails and so on already :)
  129. # [04:20] <Hixie> re the whitelisting thing, btw, contradicting other specs has never stopped the SVGWG before, so i don't know why it would start being an issue now :-)
  130. # [04:21] <Hixie> (q.v. xlink, css, etc)
  131. # [04:21] <heycam> different constituency, for one
  132. # [04:21] <Hixie> and re your other point, namely that html5 shouldn't set itself up to be contradicted -- i expect by the time html5 is rec, it'll be obsolete
  133. # [04:22] <heycam> seems like a very zen approach to standards work, or something :)
  134. # [04:22] <Hixie> the goal isn't standards
  135. # [04:22] <Hixie> standards are just the tool
  136. # [04:23] <heycam> sure
  137. # [04:24] <heycam> perhaps that points to issues with the W3C rec track process? or problems with interpretation about what getting rec means.
  138. # [04:24] <heycam> hmm, i keep typing "rect" instead of "rec". too much svg i guess. :)
  139. # [04:24] <Hixie> the w3c rec track process has many, many issues
  140. # [04:24] <heycam> *getting to rec
  141. # [04:24] <Hixie> i'm not really interested in trying to fix them at this point
  142. # [04:24] <Hixie> too many people are too invested in the process
  143. # [04:25] <Hixie> (e.g. i don't think we should have per-document maturity, i don't think it makes sense to have a spec that has no maintenance effort yet is still in use, i don't think versioning specs makes sense...)
  144. # [04:26] <Hixie> (people exit CR with test suites that are frankly laughable, e.g. SVG Tiny 1.2; other specs have laughably few implementation requirements, e.g. HTML4)
  145. # [04:27] <Hixie> anyway
  146. # [04:27] <Hixie> bbiab, gotta cycle home
  147. # [04:27] <heycam> later
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  153. # [05:28] <shepazutoo> wow, Hixie, "contradicting other specs has never stopped the SVGWG before" (q.v. xlink, css, etc)... first, those were almost certainly mistakes rather than purposeful contradictions, and second, you're acting like the current SVG WG is the same set of companies and individuals that wrote the SVG 1.1 spec, which you know to be false... can you please drop the political histrionics?
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  156. # [05:30] <shepazutoo> we're acting in good faith to correct some past errors, and to work with other WGs and with browser vendors to make all the specs align usefully
  157. # [05:30] * shepazutoo is now known as shepazu
  158. # [05:34] <Hixie> i think you may have missed the smiley
  159. # [05:35] <roc> a smiley is not a "get out of jail free card" to be annoying
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  167. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> we need an ascii symbol for flipping somebody the bird
  168. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> .!.
  169. # [06:19] <shepazu> ..|.,
  170. # [06:21] <shepazu> maybe that's too literalist
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  182. # [08:17] <Hixie> huh
  183. # [08:17] <Hixie> it turns out there can only be one mutex for localStorage and cookie handling for an entire browser
  184. # [08:17] <Hixie> you can't do it on a per-origin basis
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  186. # [08:22] <Hixie> because different origins can be running on the same event loop, and so that would lead to deadlock situations
  187. # [08:22] <Hixie> and you cant do it on the transitive closure of origin and unit of related browsing contexts
  188. # [08:22] <Hixie> because while one group is locked, another could join it
  189. # [08:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: so should a browser lock both cookies and localStorage until script completion when a script first accesses either?
  190. # [08:25] <Hixie> that appears to be the only way to solve the problem, at least for cookie
  191. # [08:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it OK to release the lock between two scripts in one browsing context?
  192. # [08:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: or between intervals in one document?
  193. # [08:26] <Hixie> i think the lock would be released at the end of each task
  194. # [08:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: presumably even in single-threaded browsers the values can change in those spots
  195. # [08:27] <hsivonen> aside: I've got the execution order right in http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/003.html but the test fails because later scripts fail to update the variable
  196. # [08:27] <hsivonen> I'm puzzled
  197. # [08:28] <Hixie> the test might be wrong
  198. # [08:28] <hsivonen> I checked in a debugger that all scripts see the same global scope object
  199. # [08:28] <hsivonen> I'm puzzled
  200. # [08:28] <hsivonen> I wonder if a security check fails somewhere for some reason even if the global scope is the same
  201. # [08:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, obviously, my impl is wrong if shipped browsers update the variable for all scripts
  202. # [08:30] <Hixie> ah, yes, if other browsers pass the test it is likely right
  203. # [08:31] * hsivonen has still 17 unit tests to go with fixing namespaceURI, localName and getElementsByTagNameNS for HTML nodes
  204. # [08:36] <hsivonen> hrm. still failed to deploy Mike's formmethod etc. patch :-(
  205. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: some problem with it? or you mean you just haven't had time yet?
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  207. # [08:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: after the deployment process, the servers still run the wrong code
  208. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> whacky
  209. # [08:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops. sorry. my test was wrong. and was wrong yesterday, too. the code is now deployed. Thanks!
  210. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> ah cool
  211. # [08:39] <hsivonen> now I should also update the spec snapshot, but that tends to be tricky, because the spec changes in unexpected ways
  212. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> which spec snapshot?
  213. # [08:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the one that is mined for UI strings
  214. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> ah
  215. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> yeah, that seems like it might be a bit fragile
  216. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> or could be, I mean
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  220. # [09:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a reason why the spec doesn't say that getAttributeNode lower-cases the argument
  221. # [09:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: failing to do so seems to fail Acid3
  222. # [09:04] <Hixie> really?
  223. # [09:04] <Hixie> i'm hoping Attribute nodes get removed altogether
  224. # [09:04] <Hixie> (which is allowed in acid3)
  225. # [09:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, at least I'm reading a test case that claims to copy Acid3
  226. # [09:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/test/test_bug199959.html
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  228. # [09:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: getAttributeNode should lower-case, right?
  229. # [09:06] <Hixie> i have no idea off hand
  230. # [09:07] <Hixie> i thought it was the setters that lowercased
  231. # [09:07] <Hixie> i don't think much content cares about Attribute nodes
  232. # [09:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: acid3 doesn't seem to test mixed case with getAttributeNode
  233. # [09:07] <hsivonen> I don't even understand what I did to make that test fail
  234. # [09:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
  235. # [09:08] <hsivonen> I guess I should test what other browsers do
  236. # [09:10] <zcorpan> hmm weird... opera seems to change the case of the attribute upon getAttributeNode
  237. # [09:11] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/42
  238. # [09:12] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/getAttributeNode.html
  239. # [09:13] <hsivonen> alerts [object Attr] in Firefox 3, Opera 10 and WebKit trunk
  240. # [09:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: inspect the attribute's local name before and after getAttributeNode
  241. # [09:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in opera it's "foo" before and "Foo" after
  242. # [09:14] <hsivonen> that seems bad
  243. # [09:14] <zcorpan> yes
  244. # [09:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what do you use to check?
  245. # [09:15] <zcorpan> nodeName
  246. # [09:15] <zcorpan> actually just the live dom viewer :)
  247. # [09:15] <zcorpan> see above
  248. # [09:15] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vgmp4MmfG0 ?
  249. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: WebKit and Gecko seem sane here :-)
  250. # [09:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what do they do?
  251. # [09:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: they return the attribute node without mutating it, so presumably they lower-case the getter argument
  252. # [09:18] <zcorpan> try with a mixed case attribute (using setAttributeNS)
  253. # [09:18] <hsivonen> actually, WebKit seems to do a case-insensitive compare
  254. # [09:18] <hsivonen> sigh
  255. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Gecko seems to lower case
  256. # [09:19] <hsivonen> whoa! IE8 has the same craziness as Opera
  257. # [09:19] <zcorpan> ie8 supports getAttributeNode?
  258. # [09:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: seems so
  259. # [09:20] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  260. # [09:20] <hsivonen> I wonder if they create attribute nodes lazily and take the node name from the getter argument
  261. # [09:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: my copy of webkit seems to lowercase
  262. # [09:21] <zcorpan> yeah that might be what we do
  263. # [09:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oh? what's your copy of WebKit?
  264. # [09:21] <zcorpan> the one that came with safari 4 beta
  265. # [09:21] <zcorpan> no wait
  266. # [09:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm trying http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/42 in a nightly from yesterday or so
  267. # [09:22] <zcorpan> the one that came with safari 3.2.1
  268. # [09:22] <zcorpan> ok
  269. # [09:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: with which test case?
  270. # [09:22] <zcorpan> same
  271. # [09:23] <zcorpan> i get null
  272. # [09:23] <hsivonen> ok. I wonder why they changed it.
  273. # [09:23] <zcorpan> maybe just to align with moz
  274. # [09:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but moz seems to lower case!
  275. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> jgraham: we could use the Flight of the Conchords guys in some standards discussions
  276. # [09:24] <zcorpan> uh right
  277. # [09:25] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  278. # [09:26] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what does getAttribute() do? case-insensitive or lower case?
  279. # [09:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i guess it'd be nice if it worked with <svg viewBox>
  280. # [09:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan: we definitely need to push this stuff down to HTMLElement instead of Element
  281. # [09:28] <zcorpan> ah
  282. # [09:28] <zcorpan> and also check the htmlness of the document?
  283. # [09:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: reading Gecko's code without testing, it lower cases
  284. # [09:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that, too
  285. # [09:28] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Heh
  286. # [09:28] <zcorpan> yep lowercases in my safari too
  287. # [09:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: createAttributeNode without NS will have to suck for SVG in HTML docs :-(
  288. # [09:30] <Hixie> createAttributeNode sucks regardless of namespace :-)
  289. # [09:31] <Hixie> zcorpan: you should just drop Attribute nodes altogether
  290. # [09:31] <zcorpan> yeah i've commented out createAttributeNode in web dom
  291. # [09:31] <zcorpan> i don't know how to deal with .attributes, though
  292. # [09:31] <zcorpan> and attributes in general
  293. # [09:31] <zcorpan> they're such a pita
  294. # [09:32] <Hixie> what's the problem?
  295. # [09:32] <zcorpan> maybe that i haven't wrapped my head around them yet
  296. # [09:33] <Hixie> i'd remove all the methods with Attr in their name that take Node objects
  297. # [09:34] <Hixie> and change .attributes to just return a DOMStringList or a list of objects that barely look like Node objects or something
  298. # [09:34] <Hixie> might be tough if content relies on any of this though
  299. # [09:35] <Hixie> ask bloo for stats :-)
  300. # [09:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: i've removed all such methods already, it seems
  301. # [09:36] <Hixie> cool
  302. # [09:36] <zcorpan> bloo?
  303. # [09:36] <virtuelv> zcorpan: brian wilson
  304. # [09:37] <virtuelv> he's one of your coworkers :D
  305. # [09:37] <Philip`> http://www.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/ - anchors[0].getAttributeNode("href").value.toLowerCase()
  306. # [09:38] <Philip`> http://www.corestyle-ent.de/ - $('commentFunc').setAttributeNode(href)
  307. # [09:39] <Philip`> plus a handful of others
  308. # [09:39] <zcorpan> :(
  309. # [09:40] <Hixie> you might be able to get away with just getAttributeNode and setAttributeNode and .attributes, with some very bare bones objects
  310. # [09:40] <Hixie> (Attr objects with just nodeName and value, maybe; i haven't checked what would be needed)
  311. # [09:41] <Philip`> You'd need createAttribute too
  312. # [09:42] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  313. # [09:44] <Hixie> really? people use that? i hate the web.
  314. # [09:45] <Philip`> http://www.corestyle-ent.de/ - document.createAttribute("href")
  315. # [09:45] <olliej> Hixie: heh, i was thinking that just the other day
  316. # [09:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think i'll specify getAttributeNS to return null instead of empty string in case of absent attribute, just like getAttribute
  317. # [09:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Is that what browsers already do except for Gecko for XUL?
  318. # [09:47] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it's what opera does last i checked. i remember webkit returning the empty string last i checked
  319. # [09:47] <zcorpan> (which was some time ago)
  320. # [09:48] <annevk3> Hixie, the <dfn>obtain the storage mutex</dfn> sentences you added are not class=impl
  321. # [09:48] <Hixie> oops
  322. # [09:49] * Joins: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  323. # [09:49] * jgraham finds it mildly amusing that Hixie is still surprised by the web
  324. # [09:50] <Hixie> annevk3: you sure?
  325. # [09:50] <annevk3> Hixie, if it is in fact wrapped in a <div> the preceding paragraph can have its class attribute removed
  326. # [09:51] <annevk3> (it looks like it is wrapped in a <div>)
  327. # [09:51] <Hixie> oh, yeah, i forgot to remove that class when i moved the pause paragraph
  328. # [09:51] <Hixie> thanks
  329. # [09:52] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  330. # [09:52] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  331. # [09:56] <zcorpan> Hixie: btw, the dom-intro boxes are very useful. now i can actually use html5 as a reference when wanting to look up how something works :)
  332. # [09:56] <Hixie> cool
  333. # [09:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: s/title="impl"/class="impl"/g
  334. # [10:00] <Hixie> thanks fixed
  335. # [10:03] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Remote closed the connection)
  336. # [10:05] <Hixie> hmm
  337. # [10:05] <Hixie> maybe you can have one lock per origin
  338. # [10:05] <Hixie> since there's no way for one origin to synchronously do anything to another origin...
  339. # [10:05] <Hixie> or is there...
  340. # [10:06] <annevk3> I thought focus() was one of those things last we checked.
  341. # [10:06] <Hixie> does that really need to synchronously fire the focus event though?
  342. # [10:07] <annevk3> I'll bow out here :)
  343. # [10:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: things like "s[pos+1]" have a green underline
  344. # [10:08] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  345. # [10:11] <Hixie> reload
  346. # [10:16] <Hixie> ok nn
  347. # [10:16] <annevk3> nn
  348. # [10:16] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4065
  349. # [10:19] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-117.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
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  353. # [10:40] <jgraham> That forum post seems to raise a reasonable point
  354. # [10:41] <zcorpan> can't web workers just assume the latest and greatest?
  355. # [10:41] <zcorpan> actually i'd like all scripts to assume the latest and greatest
  356. # [10:41] <annevk3> what if something new is introduced beyond that?
  357. # [10:42] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-179-86.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  358. # [10:42] <annevk3> I do agree though
  359. # [10:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: If they assume JS 1.7, what happens when a future JS 1.x adds some more slightly-backwards-incompatible syntax?
  360. # [10:43] <Philip`> (You could assume 1.7 for workers because there's no legacy yet, but there will be some soon)
  361. # [10:43] <zcorpan> Philip`: same as what we do with html and css
  362. # [10:44] <Philip`> zcorpan: That only works because HTML and CSS ignore unknown syntax extensions, and JS doesn't
  363. # [10:44] <jgraham> The problem is that JS n+1 has different semantics to JS n
  364. # [10:45] <jgraham> This is not an ideal situation, but I don't think we can "fix" it this way
  365. # [10:46] <Philip`> More specifically, the problem is it has different semantics for code which compiles
  366. # [10:46] <Philip`> (Nobody seems to mind changing "fun(x) x+1" from a syntax error into a function - it's still a change in the semantics of that string, but not one that's going to break anything in practice)
  367. # [10:46] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-179-86.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  368. # [10:47] <zcorpan> i guess this was a problem also when going from js1.1...1.6
  369. # [10:47] <zcorpan> but we don't require a version flag to indicate 1.6
  370. # [10:47] <Philip`> They didn't introduce any new syntax
  371. # [10:47] <Philip`> (I think)
  372. # [10:49] <Philip`> (And you don't need a version flag to indicate all of 1.7's features, nor even for some of its syntax; only its backward-incompatible syntax, like new keywords)
  373. # [10:49] <jgraham> Yeah, things like yield
  374. # [10:49] <jgraham> and let
  375. # [10:49] <Philip`> (so it's not really any different to the previous versions)
  376. # [10:50] <Philip`> (except that the backward-incompatible syntax in previous versions was an empty set, and so the whole version string got optimised away into non-existence)
  377. # [10:51] <zcorpan> i guess there are some options:
  378. # [10:51] <jgraham> (you could always have in-band metadata to indcate the language version which would be a more flexile and better solution but it's not clear that we should try and force the issue by having odd requirements for workers)
  379. # [10:52] <zcorpan> (1) out of band version flag (currently in mozilla)
  380. # [10:52] <zcorpan> (2) in-band version flag
  381. # [10:52] <Philip`> (In-band metadata still doesn't survive copy-and-paste so it's not great)
  382. # [10:52] <zcorpan> (3) let 'yield' etc be overwritable (ugly but might work)
  383. # [10:52] <Philip`> (It's not a problem in practice yet because nobody uses JS 1.7, but it would matter if we started expecting everybody to use it, like how we expect everyone to use standards-mode doctypes)
  384. # [10:52] <zcorpan> (4) let things break
  385. # [10:53] <jgraham> (people use JS 1.7 but not really on the web)
  386. # [10:53] <jgraham> (just for things like Mozilla extensions)
  387. # [10:54] <zcorpan> on the web, how bad would (4) be?
  388. # [10:54] <Philip`> zcorpan: function f() { if (Math.random() < 0.5) eval("var yield = 1"); yield; } -- how would that work in your (3)?
  389. # [10:54] <jgraham> 4) is a non option, 3) I don't really understand, 2) seems reasonable but won't pass with TC39 and 1) will happen regardless of what HTML 5 says (I guess)
  390. # [10:54] <zcorpan> Philip`: dunno
  391. # [10:55] <Philip`> You need to know at compile-time whether it's a keyword or an identifier
  392. # [10:55] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-52-110.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  393. # [10:56] <zcorpan> then i guess (3) doesn't work
  394. # [10:56] <zcorpan> jgraham: why is (4) not an option?
  395. # [10:56] <Philip`> I suppose you could make window.yield be a function, so you'd write yield(42) and could override it with var, so you wouldn't have any new keywords, but that wouldn't help with let
  396. # [10:56] <jgraham> zcorpan: You can't really let deployed scripts break and expect implementors to implement
  397. # [10:57] <jgraham> e.g. Mozilla have already shown that they are not prepared to do that
  398. # [10:57] <Philip`> http://google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#PSg8XFiA2K0/plugins/letters/letters.js&q=%22var%20let%22%20lang:javascript
  399. # [10:57] <Philip`> http://google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#1WvUcq2GgMs/mozilla/cmd/dialup/tools/cg/docs/ias/sltab.js&q=%22var%20let%22%20lang:javascript
  400. # [10:57] <Philip`> People use 'var let = ...' quite a bit for letters
  401. # [10:58] <Philip`> Actually just look at http://google.com/codesearch?q=%22var+let%22+lang:javascript , that's much easier
  402. # [10:59] <Philip`> or http://google.com/codesearch?q=var%5Cs%2Blet%5Cb+lang%3Ajavascript
  403. # [10:59] <jgraham> It is telling that the first result is a mozsilla regression test suite
  404. # [10:59] <jgraham> *mozilla
  405. # [10:59] <Philip`> I'm not sure what that's telling of
  406. # [11:00] <Philip`> particularly since all the rest look like real code in the wild
  407. # [11:00] <jgraham> It's telling of the fact that they have had bugs with breaking that case
  408. # [11:00] <jgraham> And can't afford to again
  409. # [11:01] <jgraham> Which backs up my statement that 4) is a non-option
  410. # [11:01] <Philip`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=351515 - "yield" can no longer be used as an argument name (Mercury News page not rendered properly for FF2)
  411. # [11:01] <zcorpan> ok, so maybe enough would break for 'let' and 'yield'... that still leaves the options of in-band flag and renaming 'let' and 'yield' to something else that doesn't break as much (also ugly though)
  412. # [11:02] <Philip`> Take the C99 approach, and call them __let and __yield
  413. # [11:02] <jgraham> No
  414. # [11:02] <Philip`> Good
  415. # [11:02] <jgraham> Ther are limits
  416. # [11:03] <roc> I'm sure there are some free Unicode characters we could use
  417. # [11:03] <roc> the Perl6 approach
  418. # [11:04] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-77-86-107-105.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  419. # [11:05] <Philip`> U+22A2 RIGHT TACK (turnstile; proves, implies, yields; reducible)
  420. # [11:07] * jgraham wants U+1D4F5 U+1D4EE U+1D4FD
  421. # [11:07] <Philip`> 𝓵𝓮𝓽?
  422. # [11:08] * jgraham just sees replacement characters for that in irssi sadly
  423. # [11:08] * Philip` too
  424. # [11:08] <Philip`> and on krijnh's logs
  425. # [11:08] <Philip`> Oh wait, no, it eventually loaded the right font for the logs
  426. # [11:09] * zcorpan doesn't seem to have fonts for those glyphs
  427. # [11:09] <Philip`> jgraham: I like your idea - it would be a good way to shake out bugs in code that relies on UCS-2
  428. # [11:09] <jgraham> zcorpan: Try Code2001
  429. # [11:10] <Philip`> zcorpan: Try Arial Unicode MS
  430. # [11:10] <jgraham> Philip`: Sadly ES3.1 only requires Unicode 3.0
  431. # [11:10] * jgraham isn't actually sure which font he is seeing
  432. # [11:10] <Philip`> jgraham: But our new version can require whatever it wants
  433. # [11:11] <jgraham> Philip`: True.
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  445. # [13:09] <Dashiva> One thing I wonder about lastweek. Does he actually care about web development, or are we just the canvas for his latest masterpiece?
  446. # [13:15] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-212-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
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  450. # [13:37] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
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  454. # [13:42] * hsivonen wonders if there's a logical reason why the window.frames is on window instead of being document.frames
  455. # [13:43] <annevk3> it returns window objects
  456. # [13:43] <hsivonen> ah
  457. # [13:43] <annevk3> except that it doesn't, it's just a synonym for window nowadays
  458. # [13:44] <annevk3> (except in Opera, where it still returns a list of window objects, for some versions)
  459. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I notice that the whattf assertions.sch file is using the XPath id() function. But is id() ever actually going to work? Doesn't id() depend on either access to a DTD that declares what attributes are IDs, or xml:id?
  460. # [13:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the HTML5 parser assigns IDness to id. for XML, there's an 'XHTML id processor' that assigns IDness to id
  461. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see. I ask in the context of trying to test the assertions.sch file just with jing
  462. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> I can't see any way in that case for jing to know that @id is an ID
  463. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> right?
  464. # [13:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not without adding a SAX filter between the XML parser and Jing
  465. # [14:00] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@80.99.193.98) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  466. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK. well, I'm in the midst of adding rules for additional constraints on the content model of the label element
  467. # [14:03] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  468. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> and for checking labelable elements
  469. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> e.g., I have this test for the input element:
  470. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> ancestor::h:label[@for] and not(id(ancestor::h:label/@for))
  471. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> whoops
  472. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> no, not that
  473. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> this:
  474. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> ancestor::h:label[@for] and not(@id = ancestor::h:label/@for)
  475. # [14:06] * annevk3 thought Schematron was going away
  476. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> annevk3: it is already gone, actually
  477. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> as far as what v.nu is actually using
  478. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen moved the assertions logic to Java
  479. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> but it seems worthwhile to try to keep the schematron stuff (assertions.sch file) synced up
  480. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: anyway, what I'm wondering is, should that test check both for the @id and @xml:id
  481. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> or should I change it to use id() instead
  482. # [14:09] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1242458518.dsl.bell.ca)
  483. # [14:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, I assign IDness to xml:id, but I've considered removing xml:id support, since it complicates code more that it first appears
  484. # [14:11] * hsivonen looks
  485. # [14:12] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@212.3.30.100)
  486. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm personally happy to ignore xml:id if you are
  487. # [14:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it seems my 'XHTML id processor' is also an 'xml:id processor'
  488. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  489. # [14:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if you use id(), things should Just Work
  490. # [14:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the filter is called nu.validator.xml.IdFilter in the util svn repo
  491. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> thanks
  492. # [14:27] <jgraham> Oh joy the blizzard has started again
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  498. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: do you know if schematron supports generate-id() ?
  499. # [14:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have no idea. I don't even know what generate-id() is.
  500. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> OK
  501. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> wondering how to compare two nodes in schematron to test whether they are the same
  502. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> because id() returns a nodeset
  503. # [14:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Schematron is hard for anything but the most trivial use cases... :-(
  504. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  507. # [15:09] <itpastorn1> #Brucespringsteen Queen of the Supermarket - a banality with charm and really suggestive crescendo. What Love can do - not one I'll be wishing for in concert.
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  516. # [15:46] <annevk3> whoa WebKit normalizes URLs
  517. # [15:48] <annevk3> but it does not conform to RFC 3987 either because it also does it for UTF-8
  518. # [15:48] <annevk3> Firefox and Opera both have HTML5 URL handling for CSS
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  521. # [15:51] <annevk3> IE6 (all I have) does the path per HTML5 URL handling and for the query component it seems to transmit raw UTF-8 bytes rather than percent escaping them
  522. # [15:51] <annevk3> nevertheless, it does not normalize either
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  525. # [15:54] <zcorpan> annevk3: http://www.xenocode.com/browsers/
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  527. # [15:57] <annevk3> zcorpan, how do I use it?
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  529. # [16:03] <annevk3> I should note that all browsers force the URL encoding flag to be UTF-8
  530. # [16:03] <annevk3> for CSS
  531. # [16:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: "This service is unavailable on your device."
  532. # [16:09] <annevk3> (IE is actually sending raw UTF-8 bytes over HTTP. Can we simply upgrade HTTP to be UTF-8 without major cost?)
  533. # [16:12] <hsivonen> annevk3: next servers will have to compare HTTP method literals for canonical equivalence
  534. # [16:15] <annevk3> yeah, and headers in your native language!
  535. # [16:15] <annevk3> Japan is jumping up and down for that one, for sure
  536. # [16:16] <Philip`> X-UA-矛盾しない: IE=9
  537. # [16:16] <Philip`> What's the Japanese for "X" and for "UA"?
  538. # [16:17] <Dashiva> What does the X mean, semantically?
  539. # [16:17] <annevk3> Philip`, the halfwidth equivalents
  540. # [16:18] <annevk3> Dashiva, "should not be used"
  541. # [16:18] <jcranmer> yes, that would be the best way
  542. # [16:18] <jcranmer> (I think X is for eXtension)
  543. # [16:18] <Dashiva> I would cook up 利機 for UA
  544. # [16:18] * annevk3 is amazed how bz keeps replying
  545. # [16:18] <Dashiva> (Two-part shortening of the full "User Agent")
  546. # [16:19] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's a way to tell MacPorts not to use FTP mirrors
  547. # [16:19] <Philip`> Dashiva: What's the Japanese for "the X factor"?
  548. # [16:19] <Dashiva> I don't know, my vocabulary is kinda weak
  549. # [16:19] <jcranmer> 張 is probably the closest to X
  550. # [16:20] <jcranmer> since 拡張子 is extension
  551. # [16:21] <jcranmer> 子 might be good as well (it means child by itself)
  552. # [16:21] <Dashiva> I don't think that's the right kind of extension
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  554. # [16:21] <jcranmer> 拡張, then?
  555. # [16:22] <jcranmer> I'm relying on google's translate here
  556. # [16:22] <Dashiva> Well, there are some people who actually know Japanese in these circles
  557. # [16:22] <Dashiva> We could ask them :P
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  572. # [17:47] <gsnedders> The PHP tokenizer is slow…
  573. # [17:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Slow in a "this is written in PHP" way or slow in a "this is really slow PHP" way?
  574. # [17:49] * Quits: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Remote closed the connection)
  575. # [17:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: Mainly the former
  576. # [17:49] * jgraham doesn't really know why he is asking since he cares so little about PHP
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  579. # [17:50] * gsnedders cares more than he'd like to
  580. # [17:50] <gsnedders> Also: Kcachegrind is really slow with 450MB files
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  583. # [17:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: The idea is to run it on a small representative data set, so you don't end up with pointlessly huge amounts of data to analyse :-p
  584. # [17:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: This is running it on the spec :P
  585. # [17:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: Which, as I'm sure you'd agree, is the only HTML document that actually matters in terms of how long it takes to parse :P
  586. # [17:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: The spec is very uniform, so you could run it on e.g. the first 100KB and the data would be just as good
  587. # [17:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's boring.
  588. # [17:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's not my fault that your problem has a perfectly adequate but boring solution
  589. # [17:59] <Philip`> Is the Internet/Trusted zone <input type=file> discussion the list really about Internet/Trusted, or is it about IE8-mode/IE7-mode?
  590. # [18:02] <hsivonen> it would be silly for the IE7 mode to be less secure
  591. # [18:02] <Philip`> And IE would never do anything silly?
  592. # [18:03] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/20/rtm-platform-changes.aspx - "we changed from ALLOW to DENY for the Internet Zone “Include local directory path when uploading files” security setting"
  593. # [18:03] <Philip`> so it does sound like a zone-related thing
  594. # [18:04] <hsivonen> ooh. the twitter FAIL WHALE is back
  595. # [18:04] * annevk3 wonders when the rest of the WHATWG cabal joins twitter
  596. # [18:05] * Philip` hasn't even joined the blogosphere
  597. # [18:05] <gsnedders> So, I'm down to just over two minutes to tokenize the spec.
  598. # [18:05] <annevk3> two minutes?!
  599. # [18:06] <annevk3> wow, I thought the Python impl was slow
  600. # [18:06] <hsivonen> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/674184/why-is-xhtml-1-0-transitional-so-popular
  601. # [18:07] <mpilgrim> must. resist. fist of death.
  602. # [18:07] <gsnedders> annevk3: CPython is far quicker than the PHP interpreter
  603. # [18:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: What's the bottleneck in the PHP tokeniser?
  604. # [18:07] <gsnedders> annevk3: Also, this is me having only just started optimizing it
  605. # [18:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: Oh, just the design of parts of it in general :P
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  607. # [18:12] <gsnedders> (I halved the time by going from treating it as UTF-8 to US-ASCII-with-random-bytes-above-7F)
  608. # [18:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: Who is going to use the PHP implementation?
  609. # [18:15] <jgraham> Or rather, how fast would it have to be for people to use the PHP implementation?
  610. # [18:15] <jgraham> And is that possible?
  611. # [18:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: Oh, it's probably quick enough already :P
  612. # [18:16] <Philip`> It can never be quick enough!
  613. # [18:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: Probably mainly sanitizing fragments
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  615. # [18:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: It sounds pretty slow. I know the HTML5 spec is longer than most user entered content but you would still want pretty reasonable performance in a sanitizer
  616. # [18:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: If you really want perf., you don't use PHP.
  617. # [18:18] <jgraham> Like the python implementation seems barely fast enough
  618. # [18:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: I thought some large sites used PHP
  619. # [18:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Plenty do.
  620. # [18:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Plenty use Ruby, and that's slower.
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  622. # [18:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is ruby really slower?
  623. # [18:19] <jgraham> (is ruby html5lib slower than PHP html5lib?)
  624. # [18:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think now it isn't, but when Rails really started to gain traction is was
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  627. # [18:21] <Philip`> Nobody cares about performance - they start with ten visitors a day and there's no problem, and then they explode and have a million users a day and just buy a load of hardware because they haven't got time to rewrite their code, and it works perfectly well
  628. # [18:22] * jgraham has never had a site explode
  629. # [18:22] <jgraham> But then I've never had 10 visitors a day either
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  631. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://pastebin.com/m5e69774f
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  633. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: patch to assertions.sch to capture additional contraints on <label> and descendants
  634. # [18:24] <Philip`> Performance matters if you've got some long-term stable service and it's worth spending time on optimisation, but in those cases you're probably working in an enterprise and therefore writing in Java, rather than using anything fun like Ruby or Python
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  636. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: includes tests to check the id values of labelable descendants of a <label> that has a 'for' attribute
  637. # [18:28] <jgraham> Philip`: I'm not sure that's true
  638. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: tests by comparing to union of node sets. I don't know any other way to do it in XPath if the test needs to use id() rather than checking for explicit @id or @xml:id
  639. # [18:28] <jgraham> Depending on what you mean by "long term" and "stable"
  640. # [18:29] <jgraham> e.g. is Amazon a "long term stable service"?
  641. # [18:29] <Philip`> jgraham: I'm sure it's not true
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  649. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and did it that test to begin with because the spec seems to allow, e.g., <label for=foo>bar <input id=foo> </label>
  650. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> though i don't knwo why anybody would want to do that instead of just omitting that id on input entirely
  651. # [18:39] <Hixie> apparently for compatibility with IE
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  653. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: IE requires an explicit ID reference?
  654. # [18:44] <Hixie> iirc
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  656. # [18:44] <annevk3> it does
  657. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> geez
  658. # [18:44] <annevk3> (might have been fixed in IE8?)
  659. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> hope so
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  663. # [18:48] <zcorpan> wasn't it fixed in ie7 already?
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  665. # [18:48] <zcorpan> anyway i think some screen readers might require it, too
  666. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> ah
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  668. # [18:49] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://simon.html5.org/test/validator/content-model/label/
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  671. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: thanks
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  673. # [18:50] * MikeSmith looks now
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  676. # [18:51] * myakura thinks that's fixed in IE7
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  681. # [19:01] <annevk3> cool
  682. # [19:01] * annevk3 hardly ever needs to make sites that function properly in IE anymore
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  688. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> annevk3: well, if MS is really going to be shipping IE6 with Windows Mobile, I guess it's going to remain a problem for a lot longer
  689. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> assuming anybody actually browses from Windows Mobile devices with IE
  690. # [19:08] <annevk3> and assuming anyone actually tests their site
  691. # [19:08] <annevk3> or cares
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  693. # [19:09] <Hixie> or uses windows mobile
  694. # [19:09] <Hixie> well wonderful
  695. # [19:09] <Hixie> i ask chrome and webkit to comment on the fakepath issue
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  697. # [19:09] <annevk3> and uses windows mobile with IE
  698. # [19:09] <Hixie> hoping they'd both weight on one side and so breaks the deadlock
  699. # [19:09] <Hixie> but nooo
  700. # [19:10] <Hixie> apple don't want fakepath, and chrome do. :-P
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  702. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> heh
  703. # [19:10] <annevk3> arguably that makes 2.5 to 1.5
  704. # [19:10] <annevk3> counting each WebKit impl as .5 (with apologies to olliej)
  705. # [19:11] <Hixie> which side is opera on again? :-)
  706. # [19:11] <Hixie> and i was counting the author complaints as a +1 to the filename-only side
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  708. # [19:18] <annevk3> Hixie, I believe we rather avoid yet another change
  709. # [19:18] <annevk3> s/I believe//
  710. # [19:19] <Hixie> the argument against c:\fakepath\ seems weaker to me
  711. # [19:20] <annevk3> there's two arguments I believe 1) consistency and 2) ugly
  712. # [19:21] <annevk3> both are true but mostly go away once we have the better File API on <input> afaict
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  715. # [19:22] <Philip`> Adding new different APIs makes things more inconsistent, not less
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  721. # [19:34] <annevk3> Philip`, we need the new API anyway and it will be consistent with HTTP
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  728. # [19:47] <roc> we'd rather avoid yet another change too
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  731. # [19:49] <Hixie> well someone will have to change :-)
  732. # [19:49] <roc> really?
  733. # [19:50] <Hixie> if we want browsers doing the same thing, yes
  734. # [19:50] <Hixie> since they don't do the same thing yet
  735. # [19:51] <itpastorn> How can I make PDT Eclipse HTML 5 and CSS 3 aware in its error reporting?
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  737. # [19:52] <jwalden> http://www.khronos.org/news/press/releases/khronos-launches-initiative-for-free-standard-for-accelerated-3d-on-web/
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  740. # [19:58] <roc> Hixie: I don't see any email from a Chrome person in that thread
  741. # [19:58] <roc> about fakepath
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  745. # [20:03] <jgraham> jwalden: On an entirely different topic, in your example, even Haskell is easier to read than scheme (and, at least I, find Haskell is often quite hard to grasp, although I admit I have had almost no experience)
  746. # [20:04] <jwalden> true enough
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  748. # [20:04] <jwalden> I wasn't a fan of the parens because they nearly require you to use a code editor to write the stuff
  749. # [20:04] <jwalden> unless you use the indent style I did in the one example
  750. # [20:04] <jwalden> a closing line with seven or eight ) is just not easy to read at all
  751. # [20:05] <jwalden> I touched haskell a little in cs152 but not much; most was sml
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  758. # [20:17] <Philip`> jwalden: Nice that they're doing it in a group that only costs $7500/year to join as a contributor
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  762. # [20:24] <annevk3> http://www.khronos.org/news/press/releases/khronos-launches-initiative-for-free-standard-for-accelerated-3d-on-web/
  763. # [20:24] <Philip`> annevk3: Old news :-p
  764. # [20:25] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090324#l-737
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  767. # [20:29] <annevk3> oh wow
  768. # [20:29] <annevk3> my bad
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  777. # [20:57] <Hixie> roc: they didn't send mail, i spoke to them in #chromium
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  803. # [22:12] <roc> comment on Canvas 3D: "nothing new here. VRML did it all ten years ago"
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  805. # [22:15] <annevk3> I'm assuming that's not a personal comment?
  806. # [22:16] <annevk3> Kind of sucks btw that Khronos requires yet another set of fees to be paid...
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  808. # [22:17] <roc> it's not my comment, no :-)
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  814. # [22:29] <Philip`> It'd be better to compare it to X3D rather than VRML
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  816. # [22:31] <Philip`> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/publiclists/x3dpublic_list_archives/0712/msg00127.html is my ramblings on X3D vs C3D from a while ago
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  821. # [22:42] <Hixie> shepazu: do you know off-hand where i should point to in the SVG specs for the requirements on how to execute scripts?
  822. # [22:42] <ojan> Hixie: dhyatt had a bunch of feedback on #webkit wrt to menu. are his comments there sufficient? or should i bug him to write his thoughts to whatwg more formally?
  823. # [22:43] <Hixie> shepazu: like, downloading the file, how to determine the character encoding, how to bind the global object, etc?
  824. # [22:43] <Hixie> ojan: i don't track irc feedback, so e-mail or bugs would be very useful
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  826. # [22:45] <Hixie> shepazu: i'm guessing http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/script.html#ScriptContentProcessing ?
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  828. # [22:51] <Hixie> gah, how do i define what happens if a <script> in SVG document.write()s a <script> in HTML that then document.write()s a <script> in SVG...
  829. # [22:51] <Philip`> Fatal error; abort processing
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  835. # [22:57] <Hixie> woah, svg has more serious blocking behavior than html
  836. # [22:57] <Hixie> if you insert a <script xlink:href="x"/> into a document, it does a sync network load?!
  837. # [22:57] <Hixie> that can't be right
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  839. # [22:58] <annevk3> How does an SVG <script> document.write() an HTML <script>?
  840. # [22:58] <annevk3> document.write("<img><script>") or something?
  841. # [22:58] <annevk3> (or something else than <img> that is on the escape <svg> tree list)
  842. # [22:58] <Hixie> <svg><script>document.write('<foreignContent><div><script>...</script></div></foreignContent>')</script></svg>
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  844. # [22:59] <Hixie> shepazu: yt?
  845. # [22:59] <Hixie> or anyone from the svgwg?
  846. # [22:59] * Hixie looks around for an #svg chanel
  847. # [23:00] <annevk3> there is one on irc.w3.org at least
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  851. # [23:02] <Hixie> <html><svg><script>document.write('<foreignContent><div><script src="x"></script>[2. parser stops here until script is available]</div></foreignContent>')</script>[1: parser stops here to execute previous script and then continues stopped here waiting for the d.w() text to be parsed]</svg>
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  855. # [23:04] <Hixie> i guess the blocking really is for everything
  856. # [23:04] <Hixie> wow
  857. # [23:06] <annevk3> it may not be intentional ;)
  858. # [23:06] <Hixie> ooh, i know what i can do
  859. # [23:06] <Hixie> just set the parser pause flag to true before processing the script element
  860. # [23:06] <Hixie> that way document.write() is never synchronous for SVG
  861. # [23:07] <annevk3> what is the problem with document.write being synchronous?
  862. # [23:07] <annevk3> I mean, why can't it work the same for SVG?
  863. # [23:08] <Hixie> because that would require getting the svg spec rewritten in terms of the html spec's various lists of pending scripts
  864. # [23:08] <Hixie> and i doubt they want to be dependent on html
  865. # [23:09] <annevk3> since when can specs trump impl/authors/etc.
  866. # [23:09] <Hixie> well in this particular case it makes everything simpler
  867. # [23:09] <Hixie> which i think is probably a win for all of those too
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  869. # [23:10] <Hixie> but if you want to try getting svg and html5 to use the same terminology and processing model here, please, be my gues
  870. # [23:10] <Hixie> t
  871. # [23:10] <Hixie> you have until october :-)
  872. # [23:13] <annevk3> meh, not impressed :p
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  874. # [23:14] <annevk3> until things are actually shipping in several browsers it seems there is all the chance in the world that things will change
  875. # [23:14] <annevk3> actually, even after that point details can still change
  876. # [23:15] <Hixie> i am happy to spec whatever the browsers do, but historically every time i have done this in a manner that involves other working group's technologies, there has been an uproar
  877. # [23:15] <Hixie> and i am not interested in getting involved in another process war with no technical content
  878. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Why not?
  879. # [23:16] <Hixie> annevk3: so if you can get the specs made consistent and well-defined in a way that matches what the browsers want to do, then i'll be happy to coordinate with you
  880. # [23:16] <Hixie> annevk3: but i'm not interested in trying to convince them myself when a simpler set of requirements can be achieved easily.
  881. # [23:19] <annevk3> I can sympathize with that, though it's noteworthy that the SVG crowd has (repeatedly) stated interest in a) aligning more with HTML and b) listening more to browser vendors.
  882. # [23:19] <Hixie> i will be very happy to work with both them and you if you are willing to take the lead on this
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  885. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Hixie, annevk3: Can at least one of you reply to my email?
  886. # [23:23] <Hixie> i haven't had the time to actually test it
  887. # [23:23] <Hixie> i was going to mail you to say it'd be nice if it accepted <a href="#refsFOO">[FOO]</a> as well as [[FOO]], but then i thought about it more and decided that was dumb
  888. # [23:24] <gsnedders> The deadline isn't as soon as I thought, so I can have a day or two more, but I really need to get my computing project finished so I can get my English dissertation really underway
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  890. # [23:24] <Hixie> basically i'm not sure what the point of a bibliography system is, given the desire i have of keeping the references maintained manually
  891. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Talking to you when I need to write a brief outline of the context and purpose of the project probably isn't a good idea :)
  892. # [23:25] <gsnedders> (This is the sort of introduction thing I hate writing, and have thus far avoided writing)
  893. # [23:26] <Hixie> i guess if the bibliography was in the form of <dd> blocks exactly as seen in the output
  894. # [23:26] <Hixie> and if the <dd> blocks could be placed in the file itself
  895. # [23:26] <Hixie> such that the system _removed_ references that weren't referenced
  896. # [23:26] <Hixie> and set up the cross-references (or indeed supported the aforementioned <a href=... syntax)
  897. # [23:26] <Hixie> then that would be cool
  898. # [23:27] <gsnedders> "Otherwise, is sucks."
  899. # [23:27] <gsnedders> :P
  900. # [23:27] <Hixie> since it would make the references for the various specs automatically come out as needed
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  902. # [23:27] <Hixie> without needing an external, perpetually out-of-date, bibliography
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  904. # [23:27] <Hixie> in a hard-to-maintain syntax that can't be made to do what i want to see
  905. # [23:29] <gsnedders> still, if you could email me sometime saying it sucks, do so.
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  907. # [23:30] * gsnedders gave up trying to keep you happy with this module a long time ago
  908. # [23:30] <Hixie> i don't know if it sucks, i haven't tested it :-)
  909. # [23:30] <gsnedders> Well, it doesn't do what you want it to do, hence it sucks
  910. # [23:30] <Hixie> it does what i want it to do if i don't use it :-)
  911. # [23:31] <Hixie> so actually it does what i want quite a lot of the time
  912. # [23:31] <gsnedders> :)
  913. # [23:33] <gsnedders> My next commit message on my project, on a commit just be changing the write-up, will be, "I really can't spell."
  914. # [23:33] <annevk3> I still haven't switched to Anolis
  915. # [23:33] <gsnedders> annevk3: Traitor!
  916. # [23:33] <Hixie> dude
  917. # [23:33] <Hixie> anolis rocks
  918. # [23:33] <Hixie> you should switch!
  919. # [23:33] <annevk3> I'm told. But it got the DOCTYPE wrong and the output looks less neat overall (apart from the IDs, which are better).
  920. # [23:33] <Hixie> i think i invoke it 7 or 8 times every time i make a change now, given how many specs i update at a time
  921. # [23:34] <Hixie> why does the output whitespace matter?
  922. # [23:34] <Hixie> and how is the doctype wrong?
  923. # [23:34] <gsnedders> It always gives the HTML 5 DOCTYPE
  924. # [23:35] <annevk3> The thing with the output whitespace is that I personally always read the diff of the output document to ensure everything that is linkified does so correctly.
  925. # [23:36] <annevk3> I suppose I can change that, but my specs don't have a couple of people reading the diffs every time I make a change... :)
  926. # [23:38] <annevk3> Anyway, I guess I should give it another chance and write a small script to do all the CVS stuff and some post-processing on the DOCTYPE...
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  928. # [23:56] <shepazu> sorry, Hixie, was eating dinner
  929. # [23:57] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.77.119)
  930. # [23:58] <Hixie> np
  931. # [23:58] * shepazu reads backscroll
  932. # Session Close: Wed Mar 25 00:00:00 2009

The end :)