/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Parts: billmason1 (n=bmason@69.30.57.90)
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  11. # [01:00] <Hixie> making web workers work with application caches is going to be a huge editorial pain in the ass
  12. # [01:03] * Joins: doodlewarrior (n=IRC@adsl-76-254-59-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  13. # [01:03] <doodlewarrior> why does the header tag require an h1...h6 descendant?
  14. # [01:03] <doodlewarrior> shouldnt <header>Welcome</header> be valid?
  15. # [01:03] <Hixie> because there's no header in that header
  16. # [01:04] <doodlewarrior> it seems a bit crufty
  17. # [01:04] <doodlewarrior> to require an <h1> in a <header>
  18. # [01:04] <doodlewarrior> i could use <h1> instead of <header>
  19. # [01:04] <Hixie> yes
  20. # [01:04] <doodlewarrior> but i dont see why i would need to
  21. # [01:04] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@66.226.238.142)
  22. # [01:04] <Hixie> you should, in fact
  23. # [01:04] <Hixie> <header> is only useful if you are trying to wrap multiple <h1>s or something together into one header
  24. # [01:05] <Hixie> like <header><h1>The Reality Dysfunction</h1><h2>Space is not the only void</h2></header>
  25. # [01:05] <doodlewarrior> i guess it just seems silly to me
  26. # [01:05] <Hixie> a header and subheader acting as a joint single header for a book
  27. # [01:05] <doodlewarrior> after all the fuss about semantic tags
  28. # [01:05] <Hixie> then just ignore <header> and use <h1> :-)
  29. # [01:06] <doodlewarrior> to have h1 be a header and header be used to group multiple headers
  30. # [01:06] <doodlewarrior> esp. since <footer> is valid without any particular children
  31. # [01:06] <Philip`> Rename it to <headergroup>
  32. # [01:06] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host86-133-17-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  33. # [01:06] <doodlewarrior> or hgroup, for that matter
  34. # [01:07] <Niictar> Can I put <nav> in a <header>?
  35. # [01:07] <doodlewarrior> as long as it has an h1...6, i believe so
  36. # [01:09] <doodlewarrior> i still dont understand why <header> cant just be <header>, like <footer> is <footer>
  37. # [01:09] <doodlewarrior> where <header> may or may not have h1...6 children
  38. # [01:09] <Hixie> Niictar: no (see the "content model" definition for <header> in the spec)
  39. # [01:09] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: pretend it's called <hgroup>, does it make sense then?
  40. # [01:10] <Niictar> Ok. That saves me typing up a test document, anyway
  41. # [01:10] <doodlewarrior> i dont mean to be irritating or anything, it just seems inconsistent
  42. # [01:10] <doodlewarrior> Hixie: if it were hgroup, it would make sense
  43. # [01:10] <doodlewarrior> but it would make more sense if it was header, but the h1...6 was optional
  44. # [01:12] <Hixie> just pretend it's called <hgroup>
  45. # [01:12] <Hixie> :-)
  46. # [01:12] <doodlewarrior> theres a distinction
  47. # [01:12] <doodlewarrior> i can go rewrite all my headers to be h1s
  48. # [01:12] <Hixie> it's defined like what you think of as <hgroup>
  49. # [01:12] <doodlewarrior> thats not the problem
  50. # [01:12] <Hixie> ok
  51. # [01:12] <Hixie> what's the problem then
  52. # [01:12] <doodlewarrior> i dont understand why its defined that way
  53. # [01:12] <doodlewarrior> so far as i can tell, numbered headers are just relics of netscape anyway.
  54. # [01:12] <doodlewarrior> it seems that there should be an unordered <header>
  55. # [01:13] <doodlewarrior> to be the counterpart of <footer>
  56. # [01:13] <Hixie> we defined it that way so it would work in IE6 and IE7
  57. # [01:13] * Quits: Kuruma_ (n=Kuruman@www1664.sakura.ne.jp) (Remote closed the connection)
  58. # [01:13] <Hixie> the "unordered <header>" is called <h1>
  59. # [01:13] <Niictar> Nested <sections> create structure like <h1>...<h6> don't they?
  60. # [01:14] <Niictar> <section>* you know what I mean
  61. # [01:14] <Niictar> It seemed like thats what the most recent blog post was about anyway
  62. # [01:15] <Hixie> if you use nested <section>s you can just use <h1> and the level is automatically determined from the nesting depth
  63. # [01:16] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  64. # [01:16] <doodlewarrior> Hixie, why can't you have <header> be treated the same as <h1> unless header contains an h1...6?
  65. # [01:16] <Hixie> because it wouldn't work in IE6 and IE7
  66. # [01:17] <doodlewarrior> im not sure i follow
  67. # [01:17] <doodlewarrior> the new tags dont work in 6 or 7 anyway
  68. # [01:17] <Hixie> if you write <h1>Hello</h1> How are you in IE6 you get big text followed by normal text
  69. # [01:18] <Hixie> if you write <header>Hello</header> How are you in IE6 you get just one line of text and no big text
  70. # [01:18] <doodlewarrior> isnt that the point of CSS?
  71. # [01:18] <Hixie> CSS is optional
  72. # [01:18] <doodlewarrior> so is supporting IE6 :-D
  73. # [01:18] <Hixie> no, it's not
  74. # [01:19] <Hixie> and <headeR> doesn't work anywhere yet either
  75. # [01:19] <Hixie> so it's not just IE6
  76. # [01:19] <doodlewarrior> but the rest of HTML5 doesnt have meaning in those browsers either
  77. # [01:20] <doodlewarrior> i would prefer to have a cleaner/more consistent markup that is forward-compatible and let authors decide which tags to use
  78. # [01:20] <doodlewarrior> if they need backwards compatibility
  79. # [01:20] <Hixie> well we have put backwards compatibility at a much higher level of importance :-)
  80. # [01:20] <doodlewarrior> rather than building in cruft for the sake of 'backwards compatibility' when most people use CSS anyway
  81. # [01:20] <doodlewarrior> i understand that
  82. # [01:21] <doodlewarrior> and i doubt that my point matters, but i feel the need to make it anyway
  83. # [01:21] <doodlewarrior> you're not breaking anything by allowing <header> to be considered a header in future browsers
  84. # [01:21] <doodlewarrior> if an author needs to support IE6, etc. and isn't using CSS, he can use H1
  85. # [01:22] <Hixie> what problem would you be solving by introducing another element that means the same as <h1>?
  86. # [01:22] <doodlewarrior> but it bothers me that a tag is being added that's name implies it is something that it is not
  87. # [01:22] <doodlewarrior> two things
  88. # [01:22] <Hixie> imho the name is fine, it's the header, after all :-)
  89. # [01:23] <doodlewarrior> a) it's cleaner than <h1> - the tag says exactly what it is, and it corresponds well to <footer>
  90. # [01:23] <Hixie> "cleaner" is not really an important enough advantage
  91. # [01:23] <Hixie> if you want "cleaner", use xhtml2 or docbook or something like hat :-)
  92. # [01:23] <doodlewarrior> b) its more flexible. if you have a single <header> tag with regular content and need to add children to it, you can
  93. # [01:24] <doodlewarrior> with less reworking
  94. # [01:24] <doodlewarrior> converting <header>a</header> to <header><h1>a</h1><h2>b</h2></header>
  95. # [01:24] <doodlewarrior> is easier than converting <h1>a</h1> to the same
  96. # [01:25] <doodlewarrior> without having to rewrite your styles
  97. # [01:25] <doodlewarrior> well, as many of them anyway
  98. # [01:25] <Hixie> uh
  99. # [01:26] <Hixie> converting <header>a</header> to <header><h1>a</h1><h2>b</h2></header> is exactly as easy as converting <h1>a</h1> to <header><h1>a</h1><h2>b</h2></header>
  100. # [01:26] <Hixie> in fact, easier, if you don't want to rewrite styles
  101. # [01:26] <Hixie> since you wouldn't have to change any in the second case
  102. # [01:26] <Hixie> but in the former, you'd have to change at least your font styles
  103. # [01:27] <doodlewarrior> if header has padding, positioning, etc, i still contend <header> is more flexible
  104. # [01:27] <doodlewarrior> re: cleaner not being important enough of an advantage, i really dont understand the advantage at all of having a new tag be supported in older browsers is
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  106. # [01:28] <doodlewarrior> people can juse use <h1> while those browsers are popular
  107. # [01:28] <doodlewarrior> but <header> after they are phased out
  108. # [01:28] <doodlewarrior> if you were doing something that BROKE old browsers, id definitely understand the BC argument
  109. # [01:29] <doodlewarrior> but having a tag be semantically meaningless in an old browser is much different than breaking an old browser
  110. # [01:29] <doodlewarrior> most of HTML5 is semantically meaningless in old browsers
  111. # [01:29] <Hixie> the two problems <header> is solving are: 1, making it possible to have headers that have subheadings without it implying a subsection (like the book title mentioned above) -- this is common on blogs; and 2, making it possible to style such "multilevel" headers in the future.
  112. # [01:30] <doodlewarrior> as Philip` mentioned earlier, if you call it hgroup instead of header, much of my problem with it goes away
  113. # [01:31] <doodlewarrior> im completely cool with having a <header> element that does exactly what you are proposing
  114. # [01:31] <doodlewarrior> so long as it is still valid with or without h1 children
  115. # [01:32] <Hixie> it wouldn't make sense to have a way of grouping headers if it didn't group headers
  116. # [01:32] <doodlewarrior> it would be a nice evolution away from <h1> to have a counterpart to <footer>
  117. # [01:32] <doodlewarrior> <footer> doesnt have any meaning in IE6, but it's still in the spec
  118. # [01:33] <doodlewarrior> same with <video>, <section>, etc
  119. # [01:33] <doodlewarrior> people are using CSS/JS to support older browsers while they are still around
  120. # [01:33] <doodlewarrior> i dont see why <header> is any different
  121. # [01:34] <doodlewarrior> it just bothers me that <section><header>hi</header><footer>bye</footer></header> is more intuitive and more readable than <h1>, but invalid
  122. # [01:34] <Hixie> <video> has fallback; the others don't need to be supported since they don't do anything except allow styling in future browsers
  123. # [01:34] <doodlewarrior> if you are going to have <header>, make it a header, even without header children
  124. # [01:35] <doodlewarrior> if all you want to do is group <h1>s, call it <hgroup>
  125. # [01:35] <Hixie> if we were writing the language from scratch, i'd agree with you
  126. # [01:35] <Hixie> but we're not
  127. # [01:35] <Hixie> we're evolving an existing language
  128. # [01:35] <doodlewarrior> evolving is different than tacking shit on
  129. # [01:35] <doodlewarrior> things deprecate when you evolve
  130. # [01:36] <doodlewarrior> <font> used to have meaning, but now we use CSS for that
  131. # [01:36] <doodlewarrior> <h1> could be the same way
  132. # [01:36] <doodlewarrior> having header be considered a header doesnt break anything
  133. # [01:36] <doodlewarrior> or else id agree with you
  134. # [01:36] <doodlewarrior> but if someone really is supporting ie6 and doesnt use css, h1 is still there as a fallback
  135. # [01:37] <Hixie> changing <h1> would be bad because it works fine as is
  136. # [01:37] <doodlewarrior> h1 doesnt change
  137. # [01:37] <doodlewarrior> im not suggesting that
  138. # [01:37] <Hixie> adding another element that means exactly the same as <h1> would just be adding cruft
  139. # [01:37] <doodlewarrior> im saying apply the h1 rules to an empty header
  140. # [01:37] <Hixie> but that would make pages that don't work in older browsers
  141. # [01:37] <Hixie> even though they should work fine
  142. # [01:37] <Hixie> since they don't do anything new
  143. # [01:38] <doodlewarrior> <h1>s look different in different old UAs anyway. thats why things like YUI-Reset exist
  144. # [01:38] <doodlewarrior> they would still work in older browsers, they would just be unstyled unless you apply a style to them
  145. # [01:39] <doodlewarrior> anyway, i dont mean to waste your time
  146. # [01:39] <doodlewarrior> and i dont have any desire to beat a dead horse
  147. # [01:39] <doodlewarrior> i believe ive made my point
  148. # [01:39] <doodlewarrior> i see no harm in allowing <header> to have the same meaning as <h1> if it doesnt have <h1> children
  149. # [01:39] <doodlewarrior> and its not crufty, because it also serves as a header group
  150. # [01:40] <doodlewarrior> its not just being added for the sake of it (although if youre adding footer anyway, thats a moot point)
  151. # [01:40] <doodlewarrior> if you decide that having <header> be a header even w/o <h1> children is completely unacceptable
  152. # [01:40] <Hixie> if the header is unstyled, it doesn't work... that's what headers do, get styled
  153. # [01:40] <doodlewarrior> please call it hgroup to avoid the confusion of HTML student in the future :)
  154. # [01:40] <doodlewarrior> *students
  155. # [01:40] <doodlewarrior> headers get styled by CSS :-D
  156. # [01:41] <Hixie> css is optional
  157. # [01:41] <Hixie> pages should work without css
  158. # [01:41] <doodlewarrior> it still works, its just unstyled (cause it isn't styled)
  159. # [01:41] <doodlewarrior> if the author cares and doesnt want to use css, h1 is still there
  160. # [01:41] <Hixie> if it's unstyled, it doesn't work
  161. # [01:41] <Niictar> Actually, doesn't the spec say that there is no requirement by UA's to style anything?
  162. # [01:41] <Hixie> the whole point of a header is to style it as a header
  163. # [01:42] <Hixie> Niictar: they have to convey the semantics
  164. # [01:42] <doodlewarrior> im just asking that you dont make it explicitly invalid if its missing an h1 child
  165. # [01:42] <doodlewarrior> and let authors write what they will
  166. # [01:42] <Hixie> Niictar: the spec just doesn't say how it's exactly supposed to look
  167. # [01:42] <Niictar> I see
  168. # [01:42] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: the point is that if the author forgets to use the <h1> child, the header will look broken in old browsers, which is bad
  169. # [01:44] <doodlewarrior> it only looks broken if css isnt there. css is optional, but very very widely used. if the author a) forgets h1, and b) doesn't style, the penalty (unbolded text) is not really that steep
  170. # [01:47] <Hixie> it's not just unboldened text, and the css doesn't matter: IE6 doesn't support CSS styling <header>, and without styles, the text runs into the next paragraph, not even with a line break.
  171. # [01:48] <doodlewarrior> i forgot you have to add HTML5 tags with JS to old IEs
  172. # [01:49] <doodlewarrior> is there such a concept as a warning in validation?
  173. # [01:49] <doodlewarrior> like in compiled code where deprecation stuff is a warning but actual syntax errors are breaks?
  174. # [01:50] <doodlewarrior> so you could warn about the missing <h1> without having it be invalid?
  175. # [01:50] <Hixie> i don't understand the desire to use a longer tag name when you don't have to
  176. # [01:52] <doodlewarrior> h1 just doesnt seem to belong in the lovely world of sections and footers 8-)
  177. # [01:52] <Hixie> html is not a lovely world
  178. # [01:52] <Hixie> deal with it :-)
  179. # [01:53] <doodlewarrior> i love that the current maintainer of what may be the largest used computer language in the world just told me 'html sucks. deal with it' :-p
  180. # [01:54] <doodlewarrior> i do appreciate the work youre doing with html5
  181. # [01:54] <doodlewarrior> i just have a bit of a pet peeve about design
  182. # [01:54] <Hixie> you get over it if you spend too much time dealing with this stuff
  183. # [01:54] <Hixie> :-)
  184. # [01:55] <Niictar> It's not HTML that sucks, it's browser support. Namely having to continue to support IE 6 forever that makes the wrold of HTML a little dark, imo
  185. # [01:56] <doodlewarrior> Niictar: true, but thats why i think there should be an evolvable path. the lack of <h1> could be frowned upon now, but also built in to standards-compliant browsers
  186. # [01:56] <doodlewarrior> so we can deprecate h1 in the future
  187. # [01:56] <doodlewarrior> and have header/footer match
  188. # [01:56] <doodlewarrior> then bush and fidel will kiss and make up
  189. # [01:57] <doodlewarrior> it will be a lovely world indeed
  190. # [01:57] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Remote closed the connection)
  191. # [01:57] <Hixie> deprecating things is actually really hard in html
  192. # [01:57] <Hixie> we've done it with things like <font>, but only because those features are really bad
  193. # [01:57] * Joins: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  194. # [01:58] <Niictar> Speaking of pages that look really broken in IE 6, Apple's Safari D:
  195. # [01:58] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-cfdb9fa86fb916a7)
  196. # [01:58] <doodlewarrior> so Hixie, is your goal to help HTML limp along, then be completely replaced by something better in the future?
  197. # [01:58] <Niictar> But... the whole point is to get people to upgrade to the new version of Safari so IE 6 support really isn't required. But it's a real world example of an HTML 5 page that already looks broken
  198. # [01:59] <doodlewarrior> rather than trying to make it ideal now and cutting through the cruft/bs as best as possible?
  199. # [01:59] <doodlewarrior> and thus giving html some longevity?
  200. # [02:00] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: i don't think html is limping along, it's one of the most successful file formats of all time
  201. # [02:00] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: my goal is to make html better so that it does more
  202. # [02:01] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: but we have finite resources to do it, so i'm focusing on things where we get good value for money
  203. # [02:01] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: i think that its longevity has nothing to do with its element names
  204. # [02:02] <doodlewarrior> it clearly has longevity. its been a reigning format for nearly two decades
  205. # [02:02] * Niictar does wonder after following the conversation:
  206. # [02:02] <Niictar> Why isn't <header> renamed <hgroup>?
  207. # [02:03] <Hixie> because <hgroup> is ugly, and <header>, imho, for most people, is more understandable
  208. # [02:03] <doodlewarrior> but if cruft accumulates over time, design decisions go out of fashion, etc., and it isnt cleaned up
  209. # [02:03] <doodlewarrior> it becomes much less attractive as time goes on
  210. # [02:03] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  211. # [02:04] <doodlewarrior> the root of entrepreneurism: find a pain, solve a problem
  212. # [02:04] <Hixie> yes, that's why html5 cleans up a huge amount of cruft
  213. # [02:04] <Hixie> but i don't think <h1> is cruft
  214. # [02:04] <doodlewarrior> the more painful/crufty HTML becomes, the more likely it will be that someone upstages it
  215. # [02:04] <Hixie> i hope it is upstaged :-)
  216. # [02:05] <Hixie> it would be sad if we were still using html in 100 years
  217. # [02:05] <doodlewarrior> look at the mac though. it has evolved so much over the past 25 years.
  218. # [02:05] <doodlewarrior> people are still using them
  219. # [02:06] <doodlewarrior> and they have similar qualities
  220. # [02:06] <doodlewarrior> but soo many improvements
  221. # [02:06] <doodlewarrior> anyway, we've all made our points
  222. # [02:06] * roc_ is now known as roc
  223. # [02:06] <doodlewarrior> im glad im not the only one confused that <header> != <footer style='margin-top:0%'>
  224. # [02:09] <Niictar> Is CSS development paired someway with HTML development? Like is there a CSS working group that is putting together default styles for new elements or new semantic meanings to old elements?
  225. # [02:10] <Hixie> there is a csswg, but it's work is not closely coordinated with html development, no
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  228. # [02:12] * Niictar is worried about using new elements like <nav>, <section>, and <aside>, for example, in real-world commercial sites in fear of random default styles doing something wierd to them
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  230. # [02:14] <Niictar> Well rather, that the CSSWG will define new style attributes for an element and then a UA will adopt some of those styles as defaults to reflect semantics
  231. # [02:16] <Niictar> It would be nice to get a glimps of what sort of defaults major browsers will be adopting
  232. # [02:16] <Hixie> html5 defines the expected default styles
  233. # [02:16] <Hixie> in the rendering section
  234. # [02:19] <Niictar> This is not related to the work done by the csswg?
  235. # [02:21] * Parts: doodlewarrior (n=IRC@adsl-76-254-59-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  236. # [02:22] <Hixie> no
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  239. # [02:27] <Niictar> Well, anyway, so if I decide to use <nav> and apply whatever styles I like to make it look the way I want in current browsers
  240. # [02:27] <Niictar> I can then go to the spec and lookup expected default style values and either choose to accept them or "reset" them and that should remove suprises later on when a future UA renders the page
  241. # [02:28] <Niictar> As long as those defaults in the spec don't change (remembering it's still a working draft)
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  284. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=480427 (Add a way to run processes in a background thread) is interesting
  285. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> hmm, so http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/c352ad4174bb and http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/c352ad4174bb820bbdd71811b4ff3948d12eb768 are the same
  286. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> wonder what the other gazillion characters in the 2nd hg rev number are for
  287. # [07:04] <heycam> what do green underlines mean in the spec? dangling definition reference or something?
  288. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> heycam: I seem to remember that it's supposed to indicate a term that's not defined in HTML5, but instead externally, in another spec.
  289. # [07:08] <heycam> ah
  290. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> but it looks like some instances of those are actually for terms defined in HTML5
  291. # [07:09] <heycam> yeah
  292. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> so maybe some are markup oversights
  293. # [07:09] <heycam> gsnedders, ↑
  294. # [07:09] * heycam really enjoys pressing Ctrl+Space to switch to the LaTeX IME so he can type \uparrow
  295. # [07:12] * MikeSmith uses Japanese IME for that
  296. # [07:13] <takkaria> MikeSmith: hg often uses the first 16 characters of a revision id to refer to that revision
  297. # [07:14] <takkaria> the really long one is the actual revision id
  298. # [07:14] <takkaria> the 16-char shortening is just allowed in places where there's no ambiguity from its use
  299. # [07:14] <takkaria> iirc, anyway
  300. # [07:14] <gavin> MikeSmith: why do you find that bug interesting?
  301. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> gavin: dunno, i guess I just would have thought that'd be implemented already
  302. # [07:15] <gavin> the "processes" it refers to are external processes
  303. # [07:16] <gavin> we've had an API forever that lets you launch them
  304. # [07:16] <gavin> but now we need to allow launching them in the background to better support plugin installations
  305. # [07:16] <gavin> not really related to multi-process web browsing, or running our own tasks on separate threads
  306. # [07:17] <gavin> (the former is being investigated as well, of course, and the latter we've done forever for e.g. DNS lookups)
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  308. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> gavin: I see
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  313. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: Typographic conventions section should mention what class-less <span> (green underline) means
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  319. # [07:51] <Hixie> billyjackass, heycam: the green underlines are errors that (once gsnedders does his magic) will go away
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  321. # [07:51] <Hixie> (cross-spec references)
  322. # [07:51] <Hixie> is the h:tml doc in dev.w3.org?
  323. # [07:52] <billyjackass> Hixie: no, it's currently in www.w3.org
  324. # [07:52] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  325. # [07:53] <Hixie> ah, ok
  326. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> I should move it over to dev.w3.org
  327. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> have a running dispute with others about what dev.w3.org should be properly used for
  328. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> I've been told we should not be publishing documents there at all, because that's not what it was originally intended for
  329. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> fact is of course that's now what it's being use fo
  330. # [07:55] <Hixie> well i'm happy to move the doc to anywhere else people want it
  331. # [07:55] <Hixie> including the /tr/ page
  332. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> heh
  333. # [07:56] <Hixie> i publish about 10 versions a day, let me know if the systeam is ready for that load :-)
  334. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: is there some reason in particular you'd think it'd be better to have the h:tml doc on dev.w3.org?
  335. # [07:56] <Hixie> i didn't say i thought that
  336. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> oh
  337. # [07:56] <Hixie> i was just asking if it was there because i couldn't find it there when i looked
  338. # [07:57] <Hixie> i don't really care where it is, so long as it is public
  339. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> well, one main reason I think stuff should be there is that people can view cvs diffs there
  340. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> which they can't for stuff on www.w3.org
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  342. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about http://blog.jclark.com/2009/01/relax-ng-and-xmlid.html
  343. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> (proposal to add xml:id support to jing)
  344. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> is that something that you could add to upstream jing using the filter you already wrote for v.nu?
  345. # [07:59] <Hixie> just out of interest, the people who say we shouldn't publish on dev.w3.org, where do they say we should publish EDs?
  346. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in ACL'ed space on www.w3.org
  347. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> apparently that's the way that some other groups are doing
  348. # [08:00] <Hixie> ah
  349. # [08:00] <Hixie> well i'm happy to do that if you want me to do that
  350. # [08:00] <Hixie> i don't think i have an account on that machine though
  351. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> I'm not happy to do that, because it's unnecessary extra work for everybody, and for me in particular
  352. # [08:01] <Hixie> fair enough
  353. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> the real solution is to put sufficient resources behind dev.w3.org to deal with the use that groups are actually putting it to
  354. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> one particular problem we have run into is bots crawling links from the HTML5 spec in particular
  355. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> which apparently creates massive load
  356. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> because in some cases is causes a cvs process to run for each request
  357. # [08:02] <Hixie> does the systeam know about robots.txt?
  358. # [08:03] <Hixie> long term i think the better solution is to move away from a model that has versioned documents snapshotted on a /TR/ page and just have one continually updated draft per technology
  359. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> yeah, of course. I don't know what the normal solutions have not worked, but they seem not to ahve
  360. # [08:03] <Hixie> (but i don't see the w3c going to that model any time soon)
  361. # [08:03] <Hixie> weird
  362. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'd personally be happier with continuously-published model for draft specs like HTML5 that are in very active development
  363. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> for groups that are doing everything in public
  364. # [08:04] <Hixie> i wouldn't have groups that aren't in public :-)
  365. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> there's a lot less of than there used to be at least
  366. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> so I guess there's been some progress there
  367. # [08:07] <Hixie> true
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  375. # [08:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the filter I wrote does things that are radically not blessed by XML Core
  376. # [08:30] <hsivonen> (assigns IDness to id except in CML)
  377. # [08:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I expect Jing upstream to trea XML Core as normative, but I could be wrong.
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  382. # [08:35] <hsivonen> heycam: LaTeX IME on which OS?
  383. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  384. # [08:37] <heycam> hsivonen, linux
  385. # [08:37] <heycam> using SCIM
  386. # [08:37] <heycam> i really want to be able to type vim digraphs, since i'm more familiar with them than latex commands
  387. # [08:38] <hsivonen> it would be cool if Wolfram released the Mathematica input keystrokes as an input method
  388. # [08:39] <hsivonen> heycam: thanks. I was unaware of SCIM
  389. # [08:42] <heycam> i never managed to get it working nicely in debian, but now that i've installed ubuntu It Just Works :)
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  393. # [08:55] <Hixie> i have no idea what to do with appcache and workers
  394. # [08:56] <ap> Hixie: my suggestion is "nothing, it already works great"
  395. # [08:56] <Hixie> it doesn't work at all right now
  396. # [08:56] <Hixie> you can't use workers while offline
  397. # [08:56] <ap> Hixie: oh? in WebKit, or per the spec?
  398. # [08:56] <Hixie> (per spec)
  399. # [08:56] <ap> why?
  400. # [08:57] <Hixie> appcache only takes over network for resources that are done by a browsing context
  401. # [08:57] <Hixie> the fetching of the resource for a worker is done in the worker, not the bc
  402. # [08:57] <Hixie> what does webkit do?
  403. # [08:58] <ap> Hixie: WebKit uses the browsing context that was used for creating the worker
  404. # [08:58] <ap> Hixie: that's necessary at least to ensure that we can follow our cookie policy
  405. # [08:58] <ap> Hixie: (only accept cookies from sites the user navigates to)
  406. # [08:58] <Hixie> so when you call applicationCache.swapCache(), what happens?
  407. # [08:59] <Hixie> the page suddenly finds itself using new resources with an old worker script?
  408. # [08:59] <Hixie> and how does that work for shared workers?
  409. # [09:00] <ap> Hixie: sure, it uses new resources with an old worker (just as it will use an old onmousemove handler that was installed before swapCache).
  410. # [09:01] <Hixie> i guess that makes sense for dedicated workers
  411. # [09:01] <ap> Hixie: shared workers don't exist yet, but obviously, they'll have to remain linked to the document that opened them for cookie policy to work
  412. # [09:01] <Hixie> even once that document is long gone, history cleared, window closed, and everything?
  413. # [09:02] <ap> Hixie: I have no idea how shared workers should be specced
  414. # [09:03] <ap> Hixie: clearly, a shared worker, if there is ever such thing, shouldn't be affected by a random page from the same appcache doing swapCache()
  415. # [09:03] <Hixie> i don't think there's any "clearly" about it, but i do agree
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  424. # [09:33] <gsnedders> heycam: cross-document cross-references, methinks
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  426. # [10:09] <hsivonen> where can I find information about how vendors other than Mozilla use the Public Suffix List?
  427. # [10:09] <annevk3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0306.html o_O
  428. # [10:10] * annevk3 thought it was widely known people used VML/SVG to do graphics nowadays
  429. # [10:10] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host86-133-17-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  430. # [10:11] <gsnedders> Yeah! We hate SVG!
  431. # [10:12] <annevk3> Yeah, HTML has enough capabilities of doing declarative 2d graphics already: <table> :)
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  433. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Do the HTML5 folks hate SVG more than they hate accessibility?
  434. # [10:15] <annevk3> That's a tough call. Definitely hate it more than internationalization.
  435. # [10:15] <annevk3> Also fun reading: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0101.html
  436. # [10:16] <annevk3> "re-introduce BR, marking as deprecated, and point out that for accessibility, is much better to use L"
  437. # [10:16] <hsivonen> annevk3: I'd love to see a technical explanation for that one
  438. # [10:19] <hsivonen> has anyone tried the Google SVG stuff yet? do they do it in the same DOM as HTML or in an iframed XML DOM?
  439. # [10:19] <hsivonen> if the former, what tricks do they pull to make it work in WebKit?
  440. # [10:25] <annevk3> doesn't WebKit allow it to work in the DOM?
  441. # [10:26] <hsivonen> annevk3: it doesn't render in WebKit for me
  442. # [10:26] <hsivonen> livedom.validator.nu works with SVG only in Firefox and Opera
  443. # [10:27] <hsivonen> no idea why
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  451. # [10:45] <jgraham> FWIW I think renaming <header> to <hgroup> or something similar is a very good idea because I have come across a number of people who think that <header> is either like <hn> without the n or like <footer>
  452. # [10:46] <jgraham> Sure it is more ugly but it will also be used right more often
  453. # [10:46] <jgraham> And HTML is already pretty ugly
  454. # [10:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: what about renaming <footer> into <contentinfo>?
  455. # [10:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: my gut reaction is agreeing with renaming to <hgroup>
  456. # [10:48] <annevk3> hgroup sounds like hcard or hcalendar
  457. # [10:48] * Philip` wonders why hgroup, not headergroup
  458. # [10:48] <hsivonen> annevk3: true
  459. # [10:48] <hsivonen> Philip`: head*ing*group surely?
  460. # [10:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm less sure about <footer>. The issues there seem more aesthetic
  461. # [10:48] * jgraham isn't at all attached to <hgroup>
  462. # [10:48] <jgraham> Just not <heading>
  463. # [10:49] <jgraham> er <header>
  464. # [10:49] <jgraham> (this is another reason to rename it)
  465. # [10:49] <hsivonen> indeed
  466. # [10:50] <annevk3> lets call them <top> and <bottom>
  467. # [10:50] <hsivonen> is it OK if I change html5lib tests according to Hixie's forward-looking IRC statements about foster parenting?
  468. # [10:50] <hsivonen> annevk3: my mother's site has stuff that is semantically <footer> but it's above content
  469. # [10:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yes
  470. # [10:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
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  472. # [10:51] <annevk3> I'm not too convinced about some of the structural elements. E.g. I find <article> quite confusing and I'm missing <content> or <main>
  473. # [10:52] <annevk3> I haven't quite figured out how to explain that properly though
  474. # [10:52] <hsivonen> <realbody>
  475. # [10:53] <jgraham> I don't really understand <content>
  476. # [10:53] <jgraham> What would <content> be on a blog?
  477. # [10:53] <jgraham> Or a nes site?
  478. # [10:53] <jgraham> *news
  479. # [10:54] <annevk3> it would be the bit under the primary heading and navigation
  480. # [10:54] <jgraham> In those cases <article> seems pretty obvious
  481. # [10:54] <annevk3> and above the copyright and other links section
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  483. # [10:54] <annevk3> <article> is only for a single article
  484. # [10:54] <jgraham> So the content ould be everything not in <nav> <header> or <footer>?
  485. # [10:55] <annevk3> or <aside>, yes, that leaves content :)
  486. # [10:55] <jgraham> <aside> is content
  487. # [10:55] <jgraham> For sure
  488. # [10:55] <annevk3> well, <aside> is both
  489. # [10:55] <annevk3> it can easily be ignored
  490. # [10:55] <jgraham> Oh wait, Hixie has this totally screwy definition of <aside>
  491. # [10:56] <annevk3> content is all the articles on my blog frontpage
  492. # [10:56] <jgraham> There is no way that <aside> should contain sidebars for navigation or anything like that
  493. # [10:56] <jgraham> it just makes no sense
  494. # [10:56] <annevk3> why not?
  495. # [10:56] <annevk3> it's the actual content of the page, you might want to jump to it
  496. # [10:57] <annevk3> you typically want to style it
  497. # [10:57] <jgraham> Because it means that there are two totally different usecases for <aside>
  498. # [10:57] <jgraham> One: for pullout boxes containing content
  499. # [10:57] <annevk3> oh, I thought you were talking about <content> still
  500. # [10:57] <jgraham> Two: For structural elements of the page
  501. # [10:58] <jgraham> Only number One corresponds to any reasonable defenition of <aside>
  502. # [10:58] <jgraham> I guess <content> makes some sense, but I think you could do without it
  503. # [10:58] <annevk3> no, a list of blogs, the wordpress sidebar, etc. those things are <aside>
  504. # [10:59] <jgraham> annevk3: That is defenition Two. The one which makes no sense
  505. # [10:59] <annevk3> it makes sense to me
  506. # [11:00] <jgraham> How is a list of blogs an aside? What is it an aside to?
  507. # [11:00] <annevk3> aside to the main purpose of the page?
  508. # [11:00] <annevk3> it's sidebar thingie, an aside
  509. # [11:00] <jgraham> <sidebar> makes some sense
  510. # [11:00] <jgraham> aside, not as much
  511. # [11:01] <jgraham> And often these things are not asides to the main purpose of the page
  512. # [11:01] <annevk3> <aside> also means "apart", "to the side"
  513. # [11:01] <annevk3> yes they are...
  514. # [11:02] <jgraham> Do you agree that <aside> covers two entirely different concepts?
  515. # [11:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'll also update the tests for the new AAA
  516. # [11:02] <jgraham> hsivonen: You rock. Thanks
  517. # [11:02] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@46.80-202-223.nextgentel.com)
  518. # [11:02] <annevk3> jgraham, I agree the concepts are slightly different, but not too much
  519. # [11:03] <jgraham> annevk3: I don't really see any overlap between the two use cases. One is a content box that is out of the main flow of the content. The other is site stucture
  520. # [11:03] <krijnh> Isn't <article><aside> usable for case 1, and <body><aside> for case 2?
  521. # [11:04] <jgraham> krijnh: If you want to force all content to be wrapped in <article> elements
  522. # [11:06] <krijnh> I think it'd be handy if there was some place with screenshots of websites and a global outline of new elements you could use
  523. # [11:06] <krijnh> Before we authors just start inventing our own use for some of the new elements, because we are too lazy to read the spec
  524. # [11:07] <krijnh> Something like http://www.alistapart.com/articles/previewofhtml5 but with 'real' sites
  525. # [11:08] <annevk3> sounds cool
  526. # [11:08] <annevk3> can you make the <canvas> app that lets us do that? :)
  527. # [11:08] <krijnh> Me? No :)
  528. # [11:09] * gsnedders remembers why he avoids #css
  529. # [11:10] <krijnh> gsnedders: and why's that? :)
  530. # [11:10] <gsnedders> krijnh: They're a bunch of idiots, basically.
  531. # [11:10] <krijnh> gsnedders: well thank you, cause I'm an idiot too. And we idiots are going to use the new stuff you come up with in here
  532. # [11:11] <gsnedders> krijnh: I don't like being told, "the wey i see it , you should just shut up and start learning something"
  533. # [11:12] <krijnh> Right, you lost me
  534. # [11:12] <annevk3> gsnedders, btw, there's huge amount of Scottish people in the Netherland. They were all hopping around in their kilts in Amsterdam last night. Apparently there's a football match coming up between our countries.
  535. # [11:13] <gsnedders> I guess I'm meant to say "We'll kick your ass", but I really don't care for football.
  536. # [11:13] * Philip` assumes gsnedders isn't talking about W3C #css
  537. # [11:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, freenode #css
  538. # [11:13] <Philip`> krijnh: By the way, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20090327 says "-#c-ss" at the top which seems odd :-)
  539. # [11:13] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  540. # [11:13] <krijnh> Kewl :)
  541. # [11:15] <krijnh> That's part of me trying to prove my idiotness
  542. # [11:15] <krijnh> Working quite well
  543. # [11:15] <gsnedders> krijnh: You rule.
  544. # [11:15] <Philip`> I think the existence of the irc-logs service is proof of nonidiotness :-)
  545. # [11:16] <krijnh> Philip`: that's just because you haven't seen the code :)
  546. # [11:16] <krijnh> Anyway
  547. # [11:16] <krijnh> Are these 'markup tutorials' thingies requested before?
  548. # [11:16] <krijnh> Is that the cookbook DanC is working on
  549. # [11:21] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.ca/1373856
  550. # [11:24] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-223.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  551. # [11:24] <krijnh> gsnedders: that's a nice pill to swallow for a lot of developers, which takes some time
  552. # [11:25] * annevk3 wonders why he read that
  553. # [11:25] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  554. # [11:25] <annevk3> stuff like that drives me away from everyday forums, which is bad, since it's good to know what people want
  555. # [11:26] <hsivonen> hmm. it seems my frameset-ok code may suck
  556. # [11:28] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-80-99-193-98.catv.broadband.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  557. # [11:29] <gsnedders> It's the elitism of, "I'm right, you're wrong. You go learn.", when in fact they are wrong that really pisses me off.
  558. # [11:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: Calm dowwn, calm down
  559. # [11:29] * gsnedders slaps jgraham
  560. # [11:29] <jgraham> (that is best read in a liverpudlan accent)
  561. # [11:29] <gsnedders> :P
  562. # [11:29] <jgraham> s//i/
  563. # [11:30] <krijnh> gsnedders: osm
  564. # [11:30] <krijnh> Whoops
  565. # [11:33] * annevk3 pondered whether he should go in to say that gsnedders is right (and if they didn't buy it I'd just point to some CSS spec that carries my name :p )
  566. # [11:34] <krijnh> annevk3: don't waste your time
  567. # [11:34] <gsnedders> annevk3: :P
  568. # [11:35] <krijnh> annevk3: gsnedders can waste his time by calling them idiots (elitism?), but you should know better ;)
  569. # [11:35] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  570. # [11:36] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  571. # [11:36] <annevk3> krijnh, I'm just amusing myself with the thought
  572. # [11:37] <krijnh> More people should just be satisfied with the thoughts alone :)
  573. # [11:38] <gsnedders> I'm now getting told about what is and isn't valid HTML 5 by someone who says they aren't that familiar with HTML 5.
  574. # [11:39] <annevk3> wot
  575. # [11:39] <jgraham> I'm not sure what that is surprising
  576. # [11:39] <jgraham> *why
  577. # [11:41] * Joins: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-80-99-193-98.catv.broadband.hu)
  578. # [11:43] <hsivonen> have browsers started accepting unitless lengths in the standards mode? due to SVG?
  579. # [11:44] <annevk3> I don't think so
  580. # [11:44] <krijnh> No
  581. # [11:44] <annevk3> Opera used quirks mode parsing for SVG for a short while
  582. # [11:44] <hsivonen> so is the #css stuff only about quirks mode?
  583. # [11:44] <annevk3> I managed to get that fixed...
  584. # [11:44] <annevk3> hsivonen, yup
  585. # [11:45] <hsivonen> ok
  586. # [11:46] <hsivonen> whoa! the new AAA makes so much more sense than the old one for <!DOCTYPE html><p><b><i><u></p> <p>X
  587. # [11:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: seems like the old one was rather silly here
  588. # [11:48] * hsivonen goes test what WebKit does
  589. # [11:48] <hsivonen> WebKit indeed does it the old way
  590. # [11:49] <hsivonen> new AAA FTW!
  591. # [11:50] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  592. # [11:58] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-77-86-107-105.karoo.KCOM.COM)
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  594. # [12:17] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  595. # [12:21] * Joins: raspberry-lemon (n=lemon@raspberry-style.net)
  596. # [12:35] <beowulf> FWIW i find article confusing when compared with section when marking up content, and header being named something like hgroup would clear up a question i'm going to ask on the help list
  597. # [12:48] <olliej_> hsivonen: AAA?
  598. # [12:49] <jgraham> Adoption Agency Algorithm
  599. # [12:49] <olliej_> ?
  600. # [12:49] <jgraham> olliej_: You're supposed to know this stuff, Hyatt invented it
  601. # [12:49] <jgraham> :)
  602. # [12:49] <olliej_> jgraham: hyatt is a crazy man :D
  603. # [12:49] <jgraham> olliej_: <b><i>foo</b>bar</i>
  604. # [12:50] <olliej_> yeah
  605. # [12:50] <olliej_> i had a vague recollection of the name and purpose of said algorithm
  606. # [12:50] <olliej_> once you said it
  607. # [12:50] <hsivonen> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#adoptionAgency
  608. # [12:52] * olliej_ prods hyatt
  609. # [12:52] * olliej_ realises it's 5am and goes to bed
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  614. # [13:09] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-fe0c4599037b39b3) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  618. # [13:30] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  619. # [13:30] <zcorpan> hoffman helped find a bug in opera by sending broken svg to the list
  620. # [13:34] * jgraham likes the idea of a riot in the bikeshed
  621. # [13:44] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-14545475206d31a8) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  622. # [13:47] <Lachy> the name for <header> came from the common class and IDs used by people for a similar purpose. (typically <div id="header"><h1>...</h1> ... </div>)
  623. # [13:48] <svl> The problem with the hgroup name is that it suggests being rather restrictive, while a header can contain far more than _just_ h1-h6
  624. # [13:48] <Lachy> I don't see how we can justify calling it confusing given that we've seen several other people use it as intended
  625. # [13:49] <Philip`> Lachy: It's not clear that people using id="header"/class="header" were using it with the same meaning as how <header> is specced
  626. # [13:50] <jgraham> Lachy: I think we can call it confusing on the basis of people being confused by it
  627. # [13:52] <Lachy> jgraham, two people commenting on IRC is insignificant given that we can look at sites and see people actually using it correctly. http://html5gallery.com/
  628. # [13:52] <krijnh> Is somebody actively checking if it is used correctly already?
  629. # [13:53] <krijnh> And if not, pointing it out?
  630. # [13:53] <Lachy> I just went through all the sites listed there and of all the ones using <header>, they all used it as intended
  631. # [13:54] <Philip`> I looked at http://www.codedread.com/ which is the first one, and it seems to be entirely redundant in there since it's just wrapping a single <h3>
  632. # [13:54] <Philip`> http://www.thewatchmakerproject.com/ uses <div id="header"> for something that contains Twitter status, which would seem inappropriate for conversion to <header>
  633. # [13:54] <krijnh> On http://blog.codedread.com/ it's used better
  634. # [13:54] <Lachy> although I did notice one using a supurfluous section as in: <article><header>[Article header]</header><section>[Article content]</section></article>
  635. # [13:55] <Lachy> *superfluous
  636. # [13:56] <krijnh> The comment lists on blog.codedread.com don't use <article> elements
  637. # [13:56] <Philip`> Comments aren't articles, and if people are writing articles in your comments section then you should tell them to get their own blog instead :-p
  638. # [13:57] <krijnh> "The article element represents a section of a page that consists of a composition that forms an independent part of a document, page, or site. This could be a forum post, a magazine or newspaper article, a Web log entry, a user-submitted comment, or any other independent item of content."
  639. # [13:57] <krijnh> No?
  640. # [13:57] <Philip`> That's merely what HTML 5 says
  641. # [13:58] <krijnh> :)
  642. # [13:58] <krijnh> Isn't that what people are trying to follow then?
  643. # [13:58] <krijnh> Or should follow, when they say they're using fluffy new markup
  644. # [13:59] <Philip`> When an element has an English word for a name, people reasonably assume that word's semantics are the element's semantics
  645. # [13:59] * Parts: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  646. # [13:59] <Philip`> hence e.g. using <address> for addresses
  647. # [14:00] <Philip`> Telling people to use <article> for something that's clearly not an article is just confusing
  648. # [14:00] <Philip`> (Telling them to use <div> is okay because they won't have preconceptions as to what 'div' means)
  649. # [14:00] <krijnh> Heh, HTML 5 is a mess! :)
  650. # [14:00] <Philip`> s/5//
  651. # [14:01] <Philip`> s/HTML/the world/
  652. # [14:01] * krijnh tries to make Last Week
  653. # [14:01] <Philip`> s/:)/:(/
  654. # [14:01] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279310263.dsl.bell.ca)
  655. # [14:12] <Lachy> krijnh, haven't you been targetted by Mr Last Week before?
  656. # [14:12] <krijnh> No idea
  657. # [14:12] <krijnh> He only links to my site constantly :(
  658. # [14:12] <Lachy> oh, so you just want to be on there again?
  659. # [14:13] <krijnh> Yeah, but don't tell anyone
  660. # [14:13] <krijnh> I'd like to know your secret :)
  661. # [14:13] <Lachy> I don't have any secrets
  662. # [14:14] <krijnh> Your as in the entire cabal :)
  663. # [14:14] <annevk3> Do you seriously think we'd use this channel as coverup for our world domination plan we're discussing over in #secrettreehouse?
  664. # [14:15] <krijnh> Yeah, I'm banned there, because I wanted to log that channel as well :(
  665. # [14:15] <krijnh> Some Hixie guy did that
  666. # [14:15] <annevk3> Ah, I forgot about that
  667. # [14:17] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  668. # [14:17] <beowulf> there's a secret tree house? <excited>I'll get my ball!</excited>
  669. # [14:19] <jgraham> Weeeee another I think XML is trivial post
  670. # [14:20] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  671. # [14:21] <annevk3> Robin Berjon has actual knowledge though
  672. # [14:22] <jgraham> Right, so do lots of the othr people who think that XML is trivial
  673. # [14:22] <jgraham> Doesn't mean that XML is trivial
  674. # [14:23] <annevk3> I guess the question is, trivial to whom?
  675. # [14:23] <jgraham> Lachy: About half the sites on the front page of HTML5 agllery use <header> in a redundant way (just to wrap a single <hn> element)
  676. # [14:23] <jgraham> And these represent the early adopters from whom we expect the very best markup
  677. # [14:25] <Lachy> sure, it may be technically redundant, but it's not wrong. In particular, none have attempted to use it as a substitue for <h1> elements
  678. # [14:25] <jgraham> Lachy: I wouldn't expect early adopters to
  679. # [14:26] * zcorpan realizes he has used <header><h1>Foo</h1></header> and goes to remove the reducancy
  680. # [14:26] <jgraham> The sample is way too biased to infer much
  681. # [14:27] <jgraham> In particular I would expect all of these authors to validate their work
  682. # [14:27] <Lachy> well, the two questions about the issue on IRC that you referred to is even less evidence to infer anything from.
  683. # [14:28] <jgraham> Lachy: I don't see how. That represent actual confusion
  684. # [14:29] <beowulf> http://havetheygoneawayyet.com/ # i was going for maximum reducancy
  685. # [14:29] <zcorpan> gsnedders: it would be useful if your outline tool said which sectioning element, if any, a heading is associated with
  686. # [14:29] <Lachy> there are always going to be a few people confused about any little thing, regardless of how trivial it may be. The issue is whether or not there's significant widespread confusion to justify changing anything, rather than simply improving the education of the issue
  687. # [14:30] <Philip`> The cost of changing the name is pretty low
  688. # [14:31] <jgraham> Right but we have both evidence of actual confusion amonst authors cluded up enough to find the right technical irc channel to ask on, and a hypothesis about why they would be confused (the element name is misleading)
  689. # [14:31] <beowulf> in my experience of marking up docs as html5 header isn't terribly confusing, but i thought i'd mention it
  690. # [14:31] <Lachy> Philip`, given the existing material out there already explaining how to use it, and the sites that have already adopted it, I think the cost of changing it is higher than you think
  691. # [14:31] * krijnh prefers <header> and better/more examples
  692. # [14:31] <zcorpan> xhtml2 has <headings>
  693. # [14:31] <zcorpan> maybe that's a clearer name
  694. # [14:31] <beowulf> section vrs article though is in a different league
  695. # [14:31] * Lachy walks away from this useless bikeshed
  696. # [14:32] <jgraham> Lots of people seem to do <article><h1>Foo</h1><section>This is the content</section></article>
  697. # [14:32] <jgraham> Which is bad
  698. # [14:32] <zcorpan> yes
  699. # [14:32] <krijnh> Why exactly?
  700. # [14:33] <jgraham> krijnh: Because it technically means that the content is a untitled subsection of the article
  701. # [14:33] <zcorpan> maybe we should drop <section>
  702. # [14:33] <jgraham> rather than being titled by the article title
  703. # [14:33] <jgraham> zcorpan: Maybe we should drop <article>
  704. # [14:33] <zcorpan> jgraham: article seems more useful than section and is used correctly :)
  705. # [14:34] <Lachy> people do that because they think in terms of header/content/footer, and think each part of it deserves its own individual container
  706. # [14:34] <jgraham> zcorpan: <section> is nice for long documents like theses and the like
  707. # [14:35] <Lachy> just like we have thead/tbody/tfoot, or people who do <div id="header"/><div id="maincontent"/><div id="footer"/>
  708. # [14:35] <jgraham> Maybe we should change the outline algorithm to make untitled sections collapse
  709. # [14:35] <Lachy> jgraham, that's what I was just thinking
  710. # [14:35] <beowulf> i'd say they get confused because in the normal stage of marking up documents they haven't had to think about the semantics of two types of section before
  711. # [14:35] <beowulf> s/they/me
  712. # [14:37] <krijnh> Nor about where you put your headings
  713. # [14:38] <jgraham> Maybe we should make it a fatal parse error if Hixie doesn't approve of your markup.
  714. # [14:38] <krijnh> Inside or outside a <div>
  715. # [14:39] <beowulf> html5-O, Hixie Police
  716. # [14:49] * Quits: harig (n=opera@59.90.71.35) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  717. # [14:50] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
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  720. # [14:56] <zcorpan> so who's gonna suggest the name <headings> on the list?
  721. # [14:56] <jgraham> zcorpan: You :)
  722. # [14:56] <zcorpan> no, i don't participate in naming debates on list
  723. # [14:57] <jgraham> Just on IRC?
  724. # [14:57] <zcorpan> yes :)
  725. # [14:57] <krijnh> <header><h1>Foo</h1><p>Bar</header> is correct too, right?
  726. # [14:57] <zcorpan> yeah
  727. # [14:58] <krijnh> Then <headings> would be weird, imho
  728. # [14:58] <zcorpan> maybe
  729. # [14:59] <zcorpan> but less potential for misuse
  730. # [15:05] <Andrii> can <section> be used like a container for <article>s?
  731. # [15:05] <Andrii> instead of <div id="content"> if it would be done in past HTML
  732. # [15:05] <jgraham> Andrii: Yes
  733. # [15:06] <jgraham> If you want
  734. # [15:06] <Andrii> great, I want it now :D
  735. # [15:08] <Andrii> I'm going to markup my site in XHTML5 and I don't care that IE doesn't support application/xhtml+xml, it's not my problem, I'm following standards, Safari, Firefox, Opera can, why IE is so ****
  736. # [15:08] <Andrii> it will be a lesson for IE!
  737. # [15:10] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@static-71-127-149-10.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  738. # [15:10] <jgraham> Andrii: Unless you are, say, Google, it seems unlikely that IE will learn its lesson
  739. # [15:12] <Andrii> of course, I was kidding, but someone has to start using XHTML content-type on the web, right?
  740. # [15:12] <krijnh> Why?
  741. # [15:12] <Andrii> to push web standards to the new level
  742. # [15:13] <hsivonen> Andrii: good luck with pushing standards to the next level that way
  743. # [15:13] <svl> Andrii: application/xhtml+xml and web standards are pretty much orthogonal
  744. # [15:13] <Andrii> yeah, you always can say that web worked perfectly well with HTML 4.01
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  746. # [15:13] <krijnh> jgraham: what if subtitles aren't mandatory for a content manager and your template has something like <header><h1>{title}</h1>{if subtitle}<p>{subtitle}</p>}</header> ?
  747. # [15:13] <jgraham> Andrii: The web wworked perfectly well with HTML 4.01
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  749. # [15:14] <jgraham> krijnh: Well it's not wrong
  750. # [15:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, pretending that it was HTML 4.01 that was implemented
  751. # [15:14] <svl> You can follow the standards very well using HTML; there's no need for the draconian error handling which X(HT)ML gives you.
  752. # [15:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: Good point
  753. # [15:15] <jgraham> Andrii: What does XHTML5 buy you over HTML5?
  754. # [15:15] <Andrii> I will know that I closed each tag :)
  755. # [15:16] <Andrii> a peace in my soul
  756. # [15:16] <jgraham> Andrii: You could ensure that with HTML 5 pretty easilly
  757. # [15:16] <hsivonen> that's why I should implement optional implied tag warnings
  758. # [15:16] <hsivonen> people seem to care more about that than about true polyglotness
  759. # [15:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: good point. but it gives people the false feeling that they have polyglotness
  760. # [15:18] <Andrii> yes, you all are right, but for me HTML is the past, it's very subjective, but when XHTML was introduced it seemed like a natural development.
  761. # [15:18] <zcorpan> jgraham: maybe you should edit the blog post, linking to http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/
  762. # [15:18] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, maybe
  763. # [15:19] <jgraham> Andrii: So it is quite irrational?
  764. # [15:19] <Andrii> what is quite irrational? using XHTML 5? yes
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  766. # [15:20] <Philip`> jgraham: Are you missing a </heading> in your latest post? (and it should be 'header' anyway)
  767. # [15:20] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh
  768. # [15:20] <Philip`> jgraham: I meant your latest-but-one post
  769. # [15:20] <Philip`> jgraham: since I didn't scroll down to the one where you corrected yourself
  770. # [15:21] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah, I suck apparently
  771. # [15:21] * krijnh expects some follow-ups about "haha, with XML that wouldn't happen!"
  772. # [15:22] <jgraham> krijnh: You mean if I were posting XML to a mailing list it would refuse to send my email until I got my example right? That's cool
  773. # [15:22] <jgraham> Or would people reading my email just see a YSOD in their email client
  774. # [15:23] <Philip`> Hopefully it would save the ill-formed XML into their giant XML-based mail database file, and they won't be able to read any of their emails ever again until they fix it in a text editor
  775. # [15:26] <zcorpan> Philip`: what if the text editor is xml-based?
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  778. # [15:28] <krijnh> jgraham: yeah, XML could do that for you. But you still want to use your crappy HTML syntax, oh well :)
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  781. # [15:30] <Philip`> zcorpan: Copy the file onto a CD then take it down to the dodgy-looking guy in the alleyway who'll load it onto one of the old illegal pre-XML Ubiquity Act computers that has a copy of Notepad and can fix it up for you as long as you keep quiet about him
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  783. # [15:31] <Philip`> zcorpan: ^
  784. # [15:31] <Philip`> Human ingenuity will allow our species to survive despite XML
  785. # [15:34] <zcorpan> Philip`: only if the cd burner doesn't try to inspect the file looking for virii or something and is also xml-based
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  787. # [15:44] <hsivonen> I don't like doing release engineering
  788. # [15:44] <hsivonen> but I felt I should push out a release of the parser
  789. # [15:44] <hsivonen> respinning it now... after having signed files and all
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  820. # [17:22] <gsnedders> html5lib PHP: r1274 48.2s v. r1290 10.5s to tokenize spec.
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  823. # [17:25] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  824. # [17:27] * jgraham curses people who make testcases using red as a pass condition
  825. # [17:30] <krijnh> Thank you :)
  826. # [17:31] <annevk3> gsnedders, is there more than a tokenizer?
  827. # [17:32] <annevk3> gsnedders, and is it fully implemented in PHP?
  828. # [17:32] <jgraham> annevk3: (the answers are no and yes respectively)
  829. # [17:32] <gsnedders> annevk3: There isn't really more than a tokenizer, and it doesn't support foreign content
  830. # [17:32] <jgraham> (I think)
  831. # [17:32] <gsnedders> And it doesn't output parse errors either
  832. # [17:33] <annevk3> gsnedders, I don't care much about all that, I just need a tree, ways to filter the tree, and serialize
  833. # [17:33] <gsnedders> But there's no change in functionality between the two revisions, just a large change in speed :P
  834. # [17:33] <gsnedders> Anyhow, I need to head off, get changed, go to ATM, go to Edinburgh, etc.
  835. # [17:34] <annevk3> gsnedders, is this a public project? I might be interested in helping out a bit with missing functionality at some point
  836. # [17:34] <gsnedders> annevk3: It's in html5lib SVN
  837. # [17:34] <annevk3> okidoki
  838. # [17:35] <jgraham> gsnedders: Before you go, any opnion on movingto hg/bitbucket
  839. # [17:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: +1
  840. # [17:35] <jgraham> gsnedders: Interesting
  841. # [17:36] <gsnedders> BBC weather has totally redesigned. I'm really don't like it.
  842. # [17:36] <jgraham> OK, you may go to Edinburgh now. But only if you promise to be good
  843. # [17:36] <gsnedders> Yes sir.
  844. # [17:36] <gsnedders> :P
  845. # [17:37] <jgraham> It's stopped snowing
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  851. # [18:00] <gsnedders> It's meant to have "Light Rain Shower" at 18:00
  852. # [18:00] <gsnedders> I just dunno whether to take a coat or not
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  854. # [18:03] <beowulf> better looking at it than looking for it
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  856. # [18:07] <annevk3> "Revamp HTML5 doctype sniffing?" scares me a bit
  857. # [18:08] <Andrii> jgraham: if XHTML 5 doesn't buy my anything over HTML 5 why then it exists?
  858. # [18:08] <annevk3> though reducing magic strings is certainly tempting
  859. # [18:08] <Andrii> jgraham: me*
  860. # [18:08] <jgraham> Andrii: Well I guess some people like XML
  861. # [18:09] <annevk3> Andrii, mostly because browsers had already implemented XHTML
  862. # [18:09] <jgraham> If you need namespaces or something it is pretty useful
  863. # [18:09] <jgraham> But in the 99.99% case you don't need those things
  864. # [18:11] <Andrii> jgraham: it's hard to argue with that
  865. # [18:12] <Philip`> If you are working in a programming environment that has fast XML parsers but only rubbish slow HTML5 parsers, it can be much more efficient to use XHTML5 internally
  866. # [18:12] <Andrii> I had a dream that some day all web sites would be xhtml valid
  867. # [18:13] <Philip`> Sounds like a nightmare to me
  868. # [18:13] <Andrii> but it seems like it will never come true, because there is no even such a goal
  869. # [18:13] <jgraham> Andrii: The only time I use something like XHTML5 iswhen I use Genshi which is a templating language that is particularly well suited for working with angle-bracket markup and puts the template directives in a genshi namespace. But then I serialize to html in the end because the output only has content from asingle namespace
  870. # [18:14] <annevk3> Andrii, I think some have such a goal, e.g. timbl
  871. # [18:15] <Andrii> annevk3: oh, at least someone!
  872. # [18:15] <Philip`> Now you've just got to convince a billion other people and get them to all write XHTML with no errors
  873. # [18:15] <jgraham> Andrii: That seems like an anti-goal to me because the things that you would have to do to achieve it all seem bad
  874. # [18:16] <jgraham> In particular education alone would never be enough
  875. # [18:16] <Andrii> jgraham: but everyone wins from that, why education alone would never be enough?
  876. # [18:17] <jgraham> Andrii: Who wins? What do they win?
  877. # [18:17] <Andrii> jgraham: better semantics, code without errors
  878. # [18:18] <jgraham> Better semantics isn't true unless you use the even more unachieveable definition of "totally consistent use of elements"
  879. # [18:18] <Andrii> jgraham: it's a step towards semantic web
  880. # [18:19] <annevk3> Andrii, you might find you and timbl have a lot in common :)
  881. # [18:19] <jgraham> "code without errors" seems like a restatement of the goal, not a reason
  882. # [18:19] <jgraham> Andrii: How?
  883. # [18:20] <annevk3> "code without errors" is also not neccessarily true, e.g. <a href="ht tp://example.org/"/> is a well-formed document, but also invalid and useless
  884. # [18:20] <jgraham> The out-of-reach target of well-formed pages says nothing about semantics
  885. # [18:21] <Andrii> jgraham: yes, but what about blind users?
  886. # [18:21] <jgraham> The even-more-out-of-reach target of conforing-to-machine-checkable-conformance-requirements still says almost nothing about semantics
  887. # [18:21] <Andrii> annevk3: true
  888. # [18:21] <jgraham> The consistent use of elements across multiple websites does have some advantages
  889. # [18:22] <jgraham> e.g. it makes Google's lives easier
  890. # [18:23] <jgraham> Andrii: Sure. For blind users you should do stuff like make sure that your tables all have the headers marked up correctly, that your site makes sense without images, that your headers use the right elements and so on
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  892. # [18:23] <jgraham> It doesn't matter so much if your markup is illformed
  893. # [18:23] <jgraham> But no validator will tell you if you got that right
  894. # [18:23] <Andrii> jgraham: with the fact that in HTML 5 you may not close elements the web will still be a MESS
  895. # [18:24] <Andrii> jgraham: but screenreader can tell me how usable a page is
  896. # [18:24] <jgraham> Andrii: Why do you care if other people's sites are a mess? Shouldn't it be up to the original author to care if their code is maintainable enough?
  897. # [18:24] * Joins: Maurice (n=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  898. # [18:25] <jgraham> (I actually have some reason to care because browser QA is easier when the original source doesn't suck. But that seems like a pretty weak argument)
  899. # [18:25] <Andrii> jgraham: because all this things are connected, ugly web sites have poor markup and vice versa
  900. # [18:26] <jgraham> You are trying to claim that websites with bad markup are generally aesthetically displeasing?
  901. # [18:26] <jgraham> That is certianly a new argument to me
  902. # [18:26] <Andrii> jgraham: that's probably I started learning web stuff from A List Apart
  903. # [18:27] <beowulf> trying to make websites aesthetically pleasing is one contributor to what you would call messy code
  904. # [18:28] <Andrii> beowulf: CSS Zen Garden?
  905. # [18:28] <jgraham> Certianly people who make aesthetically pleasing websites often add lots of extra markup that is not needed to represent the site content but is only there as a styling hook
  906. # [18:28] <jgraham> (the Zen Garden is a classic example of this)
  907. # [18:28] <beowulf> yu
  908. # [18:28] <beowulf> yup
  909. # [18:30] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  910. # [18:31] <Andrii> jgraham: yes, there is some extra markup in CSS Garden's template, but loots of it is not used. People like Dave Shea, Jason Santa Maria, Andy Budd, Andy Clarke, Ethan Marcotte, Doug Bowman, all these guys showed that well marked up sites can be visually pleasing.
  911. # [18:32] <Andrii> using CSS, it's obvious
  912. # [18:33] <jgraham> Andrii: I don't doubt that these people are good designers.
  913. # [18:33] <Andrii> Andy Clarke in his latest book "Transcending CSS" says - start with mark up and when it is finished start with the design.
  914. # [18:33] <jgraham> Certianly well marked up (for some defention of "well marked up") sites can be visually appealing
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  916. # [18:34] <jgraham> Andrii: That sounds like good advice for sure
  917. # [18:34] <jgraham> But it is to benefit _you_
  918. # [18:34] <jgraham> It is not preaching to others
  919. # [18:34] <jgraham> Or trying to fix other people's mess for the sake of it
  920. # [18:36] <jgraham> If the advantages of clean markup (by clean here I mean not relying on error handling), people will naturally gravitate toward doing that out of self-interest
  921. # [18:38] <Andrii> jgraham: yes, but the point was that these things are connected - markup and presentation, and good markup indeed increases the possibility of the presentation to be better, cleaner, well designed.
  922. # [18:40] <beowulf> certainly someone who cares enough to write well formed markup will probably be the sort of person that cares about their work in general, but the markup doesn't have an effect on the aesthetics in my experience
  923. # [18:41] <Andrii> beowulf: that's what I was trying to say, "someone who cares enough to write well formed markup will probably be the sort of person that cares about their work in general"
  924. # [18:42] <krijnh> The one writing the markup isn't necessarily the one making the design/aesthetics
  925. # [18:43] <beowulf> we're all doomed
  926. # [18:43] <Andrii> krijnh: yes, but dont' you agree that this should be the same person?
  927. # [18:43] <krijnh> Andrii: no, I don't
  928. # [18:43] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-18.dynamic.amis.net)
  929. # [18:44] <krijnh> Andrii: I'm not a designer, but I try to write 'pretty' markup
  930. # [18:44] <Andrii> krijnh: then beowulf is absolutely right, we're all doomed
  931. # [18:44] <krijnh> If it should be the same person, I wouldn't have any work at all :)
  932. # [18:44] <beowulf> i got something right :)
  933. # [18:44] <Andrii> krijnh: you can develop your designing skills
  934. # [18:45] <krijnh> Andrii: no, I don't, and I don't want to either
  935. # [18:45] * beowulf hands krijnh some crayons
  936. # [18:45] <Andrii> krijnh: timbl and me hate you
  937. # [18:46] <Andrii> krijnh: just kidding :)
  938. # [18:46] <krijnh> :)
  939. # [18:46] <krijnh> I kind of like getting all sorts of visual designs and trying to squeeze semantice markup out of them
  940. # [18:46] <krijnh> *semantic
  941. # [18:47] <beowulf> me too
  942. # [18:47] <Philip`> My visual design skills are usually limited to changing the font to sans-serif and maybe changing some margins
  943. # [18:47] <krijnh> Too bad if timbl hates me for that
  944. # [18:47] <beowulf> make a t-shirt
  945. # [18:47] <Andrii> krijnh: it was a joke, it's great to hear that we all here agree that semantic markup is the aim
  946. # [18:47] <krijnh> (Though I think he really doesn't care about what I do :)
  947. # [18:48] <Philip`> I don't agree semantic markup is the aim
  948. # [18:48] <Andrii> damn
  949. # [18:48] <Andrii> Philip`: what about blind users?
  950. # [18:49] <Andrii> okay, I should differentiate between well formed markup and semantic markup
  951. # [18:49] <Philip`> I'd write everything in text/plain if I didn't want links and tables and nice fonts :-)
  952. # [18:49] <beowulf> Philip`: figlet has some nice fonts...
  953. # [18:49] <Philip`> and that has no semantic markup at all
  954. # [18:49] <Philip`> beowulf: I think they're all pretty ugly actually :-(
  955. # [18:50] <beowulf> there's no pleasing some people
  956. # [18:50] <Andrii> Philip`: but if you would write everything in text/plain without some meaningful structure blind users would suffer a lot
  957. # [18:51] <krijnh> I think people used to links and images would suffer a lot more :)
  958. # [18:51] <Andrii> Philip`: and search engines, WE WOULDN'T HAVE SUCH A GOOD SEARCH
  959. # [18:51] <Philip`> Andrii: Why? They would have access to exactly the same information as people using graphical browsers
  960. # [18:52] <Andrii> Philip`: because screenreaders parse your markup and if it's not well-formed they have troubles interpreting it
  961. # [18:52] * Philip` thinks someone should make a whole web site that's designed like an .NFO file
  962. # [18:52] <Philip`> Andrii: Screenreaders usually hook into Internet Explorer and just see the parsed version of the document, not the markup
  963. # [18:52] <beowulf> Philip`: i used to make my css look quite like an .NFO file...
  964. # [18:54] <krijnh> Philip`: http://www.photo2text.com/ :)
  965. # [18:54] <beowulf> there's a processing example that does the same thing with your webcam stream
  966. # [18:56] <Andrii> http://vimeo.com/1157346 - video of a blind web developer using a screenreader software
  967. # [18:57] <Andrii> Philip`: it would be better if they hooked into Firefox or Safari
  968. # [19:00] <Andrii> do you hear, screenreader says "list of items", the guy who is writing a markup like "first item <br/> second item <br/> third item <br/>" would make the life of a blind user terrible
  969. # [19:00] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  970. # [19:00] <Andrii> thus, well formed semantic markup is an aim
  971. # [19:01] <Andrii> and serving pages as XHTML is indirectly a step towards this aim
  972. # [19:02] <annevk3> your confusing syntax and semantic markup
  973. # [19:02] <annevk3> you can write semantic markup using HTML as well
  974. # [19:02] <annevk3> s/your/you're/
  975. # [19:03] <Andrii> annevk3: but in HTML nothing tells you that you're doing something wrong
  976. # [19:03] <svl> Andrii: in XHTML nothing does either. At least not where _semantics_ are concerned.
  977. # [19:04] <Andrii> annevk3: in XHTML at least validator tells you that you haven't closed some tag
  978. # [19:04] <annevk3> Andrii, that has zero to do with semantics
  979. # [19:04] <svl> Andrii: closing tags is _syntax_, not semantics
  980. # [19:04] <krijnh> Andrii: what does the validator tell you when you use "first item <br/> second item <br/> third item <br/>" ?
  981. # [19:04] <Andrii> yes, yes, yes, I was meaning well formed markup, not semantics
  982. # [19:04] <annevk3> Andrii, well-formed markup doesn't give you anything
  983. # [19:04] <Andrii> krijnh: that it's valid, but it warns me about not-closed tags
  984. # [19:05] <svl> Andrii: which tags in that are not closed?
  985. # [19:05] <Andrii> annevk3: decreasing of a page size
  986. # [19:05] <Andrii> svl: in that none, in a list - <li>
  987. # [19:06] <annevk3> Andrii, what?! HTML syntax allows me to omit all kinds of things that I cannot do in XHTML. Anyway, page size is solved with gzip
  988. # [19:06] <Andrii> annevk3: OKAY, YOU WON
  989. # [19:06] * smedero is thankful for krijnh's logging bot
  990. # [19:06] <annevk3> agreed
  991. # [19:06] <annevk3> I'm going back to watching The West Wing
  992. # [19:06] <krijnh> smedero: ow, okay :)
  993. # [19:07] <Philip`> annevk3: If you were using XHTML then you could use EXI and get improved page sizes
  994. # [19:07] <krijnh> There is no logging bot though
  995. # [19:08] <smedero> well then, I'm happy for whatever mechanism allows me to come back and reread the last 30 minutes of #whatwg anytime I like
  996. # [19:08] <krijnh> Good to hear :)
  997. # [19:10] <krijnh> That kind of thing should postpone my turning evil moment at least some months
  998. # [19:11] <krijnh> svl: no, I haven't ;)
  999. # [19:12] <Andrii> smedero: are you the author of http://www.alistapart.com/articles/paperprototyping
  1000. # [19:12] <smedero> indeed
  1001. # [19:12] <Andrii> smedero: thanks for the article
  1002. # [19:13] <smedero> sure, it was fun to write.
  1003. # [19:13] <smedero> have you managed to incorporate any paper prototyping into your projects?
  1004. # [19:13] <Andrii> smedero: not yet
  1005. # [19:14] <krijnh> I have, it's still lying around somewhere to do something with :)
  1006. # [19:14] <smedero> yeah, it is not always a good fit... I don't use that method every time.
  1007. # [19:14] <Andrii> but personally I'm doing a paper prototyping since I was 5
  1008. # [19:14] <smedero> heh.
  1009. # [19:15] <smedero> One thing I found a lot of folks tell me now is that they realized index cards are the perfect quick prototyping method for iPhone UIs
  1010. # [19:16] <smedero> and now, I return to your regularly scheduled HTML & associated APIs chatter
  1011. # [19:17] <Andrii> smedero: I have to steal some index cards from our local library, because looks like only there it's possible to find such a format in Ukraine
  1012. # [19:17] <smedero> huh, interesting.
  1013. # [19:17] <smedero> I've never actually considered the regional availability of various paper formats
  1014. # [19:18] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  1015. # [19:18] <Andrii> smedero: if I'm in U.S., where do I take index cards?
  1016. # [19:19] <smedero> Not sure I follow... do you mean, where you could find index cards for sale?
  1017. # [19:19] <Andrii> yes
  1018. # [19:20] <smedero> ahh, we have all of these office pr0n stores around here. you know... stuff like OfficeDepot or OfficeMax or SuperMaxDepotOffice
  1019. # [19:20] <smedero> college bookstores...
  1020. # [19:20] <smedero> art supply stores
  1021. # [19:20] <smedero> wal-mart
  1022. # [19:20] <Andrii> yeah, I was in OfficeDepot once
  1023. # [19:21] <smedero> the pharmacy ... which you'd think would just sell you medicine
  1024. # [19:21] <smedero> but in fact they have plastic water guns
  1025. # [19:21] <smedero> and index cards
  1026. # [19:21] <smedero> it is a strange world.
  1027. # [19:21] * Philip` is pretty sure he saw a Jesus action figure in a post office once
  1028. # [19:21] <smedero> nice
  1029. # [19:21] <Philip`> and I think an Einstein too
  1030. # [19:22] <krijnh> svl once saw a Hixie action figure, did he mention that already?
  1031. # [19:22] <smedero> did mr. lastweek photoshop one together?
  1032. # [19:22] <svl> Leave me out of your fantasies, krijn, please! :)
  1033. # [19:23] <smedero> i suppose it comes with an evil lap kitty
  1034. # [19:23] <krijnh> :)
  1035. # [19:23] <smedero> and an earthquake prevention kit
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  1037. # [19:24] <Philip`> (Hmm, a "recall" message on the mailing list? That seems to be missing the point of how email works...)
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  1044. # [19:41] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  1048. # [19:47] <Andrii> is there any CSS 3 IRC channel?
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  1053. # [20:02] <annevk3> http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/wiki/ProjectPlan sounds cool
  1054. # [20:04] <annevk3> seems to come from Google
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  1056. # [20:04] * annevk3 met one of the project owners
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  1061. # [20:12] * jwalden has to think he wasn't the only person who thought it would only be a matter of time until that happened
  1062. # [20:12] <jwalden> color me amused by the fuss people will make about their not targeting 3.0, tho
  1063. # [20:13] <Philip`> jwalden: What "that" do you mean? The general idea of making CPython faster is not particularly new, since things like Psyco do it already
  1064. # [20:13] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@67.217.134.48) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  1065. # [20:14] <jwalden> significant speedup, JITting, etc.
  1066. # [20:14] <jwalden> it wasn't a precise designation
  1067. # [20:14] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-80-99-193-98.catv.broadband.hu) (Client Quit)
  1068. # [20:15] <Philip`> Ah - I was just wondering if you were thinking it was only a matter of time before Google worked on optimising CPython, or before someone used LLVM for optimising CPython, etc
  1069. # [20:16] <jwalden> well, the former's probably part of that designation too
  1070. # [20:16] <jwalden> the latter, I can't speak to LLVM at all
  1071. # [20:16] <jwalden> but their prose makes it clear tracing was right out due to it not being established research, which I guess leaves LLVM as the fastest way forward if the footprint can be tolerated
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  1074. # [20:18] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/wiki/RelevantPapers has "Making the Compilation “Pipeline” Explicit: Dynamic Compilation Using Trace Tree Serialization" which sounds like tracing of some kind
  1075. # [20:18] <Philip`> and I guess it could be considered reasonably well established research
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  1078. # [20:26] <jwalden> hm
  1079. # [20:26] <jwalden> not sure what to make of it, then
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  1081. # [20:27] * Philip` supposes they'd prefer not to have to write and maintain their own JIT, if they can use someone else's code for it
  1082. # [20:27] <jwalden> probably
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  1112. # [22:13] <Hixie> ok seriously, how do we make shared workers work with apcache
  1113. # [22:14] <dave_levin> atw2: ping
  1114. # [22:16] <atw2> hi
  1115. # [22:17] <atw2> I'm still trying to figure out the ramifications for app-cache-for-shared-contexts (like shared workers)
  1116. # [22:19] <atw2> I've been thinking about it for a bit, but I'm not sure I fully understand the app cache spec well enough to understand all the ramifications. It does seem wonky to have one browsing context using one app cache, but sharing a worker with another page running from a different cache.
  1117. # [22:20] * atw2 is now known as atw
  1118. # [22:25] <Hixie> yeah
  1119. # [22:25] <Hixie> i think it's what we're going to hve t odo though
  1120. # [22:25] <Hixie> have to do, even
  1121. # [22:25] <Hixie> it's similar to window.open(), i guess
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  1123. # [22:28] <Hixie> ok, i will no longer commit every spec every day with a weird commit message with the only change being the date
  1124. # [22:28] <Hixie> fixing that was way more effort than warranted
  1125. # [22:28] <Hixie> but that's another story
  1126. # [22:31] <Andrii> is it recommended to start using HTML5 now?
  1127. # [22:32] <Hixie> i would recommend using what browsers support, without paying much attention to what version of html they come from
  1128. # [22:33] <Andrii> wise and true answer
  1129. # [22:35] <Hixie> e.g. there are parts of html2 (e.g. <nextid>) that i still wouldn't recommend using, and parts of html5 that could have been used years ago (e.g. <meta charset>)
  1130. # [22:47] <Andrii> understand
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  1132. # [23:06] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  1133. # [23:12] <Hixie> anybody have any suggestions for what i should call the abstract context of "think what can be associated with an application cache", which can now be either a Document or a SharedWorkerGlobalScope?
  1134. # [23:12] <Hixie> my current best attempt is "cache host"
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  1142. # [23:29] <Hixie> anyone know of an emacs mode that shows in the mode line the text of the last line before the cursor to match a particular regexp?
  1143. # [23:29] <Hixie> (so that i can see which section i'm editing?)
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  1148. # [23:38] <Hixie> shepazu: yt?
  1149. # [23:38] <Hixie> shepazu: i was wondering if the dom events spec says anything (or will say anything) about firing events on nodes in Documents that aren't fully active
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  1153. # Session Close: Sat Mar 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)