/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 31 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <otherarun> Heh. Yeah, Mark Miller's preempted the press release, but yeah. The name change is because whole numbers were deemed desirable, and ES4 was confusing (ES4 is dead; long live ES4, or at least some of it, as ES6).
  4. # [00:03] <Hixie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waka_(protocol) <-- a wikipedia page purely about an idea that roy had
  5. # [00:03] <Hixie> otherarun: hey, arun! you're here!
  6. # [00:04] <Hixie> otherarun: any news on the file/blob api? i'm trying to plan my timetable for html5 work for the coming quarter and need to know whether to punt on the <input type="file"> access API or not
  7. # [00:05] <annevk3> Hixie, you got several of those wiki pages :p
  8. # [00:06] <otherarun> Hixie, yep, I'm here. So the status is: I'm still working on it. I'm going to work on a draft for this quarter. Blob has "problems" that Apple would like to get back to us on; synchronous APIs are out, but some folks are interested in File I/O more than Blobs, etc. and we might want to split that up into separate specs.
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  10. # [00:07] <annevk3> i was sort of intrigued by the apple idea of just having .files a simple File interface and supporting File in xhr.send()
  11. # [00:07] <annevk3> maybe not even have local file access in the first api
  12. # [00:08] <annevk3> if we get that shipped all flash uploaders can be shot
  13. # [00:09] <otherarun> annevk3 yeah; I'm coming around to thinking that if anyone is interested in direct-from-script I/O APIs, that part might be something that gets spec'd separately.
  14. # [00:11] <annevk3> besides XHR you want some integration with <canvas>
  15. # [00:12] <annevk3> further in the future i suppose you might want raw data access so you can do text and DOM processing without having to round-trip through the server
  16. # [00:12] <otherarun> annevk3 hmmm... that may be a bit more than originally conceived. good use case scenario?
  17. # [00:13] <annevk3> selecting a image to manipulate, resizing images client-side, etc.
  18. # [00:14] <annevk3> raw data access is for all the other possible use cases; the user has some set of files and the webapps has some script that can do something with the file data and you don't really want to do server round-trip for the files
  19. # [00:15] <Hixie> annevk3: really?
  20. # [00:15] <Hixie> otherarun: k
  21. # [00:16] <Hixie> otherarun: i guess i'll see where we stand at end of Q2 and if the File/Blob API isn't ready yet I'll punt on .files for html5
  22. # [00:17] <annevk3> Hixie, just kidding; was mainly thinking of HTML5 and WHATWG :)
  23. # [00:17] <Hixie> annevk3: oh ok. At least those are written down somewhere :-P
  24. # [00:18] <Hixie> for file/blob, the way i see it we want to have an object for a readonly file, an object for a mutable file, both of which support being filesystem-backed and support being just memory mapped, and then we'll want some api that exposes streams using a similar mechanism, and finally an API that maps these file/stream objects to document-lifetime-bound URIs
  25. # [00:18] <Hixie> for interaction with things like <video>
  26. # [00:19] <Hixie> and <img>
  27. # [00:19] <Hixie> maybe some protocol like blob://<origin>/<number> or something, accessible as fileObject.URL
  28. # [00:19] <Hixie> anyway
  29. # [00:21] <Hixie> christ, i have a two-line testcase for mutation events and three browsers and they ALL DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT
  30. # [00:21] <Hixie> this was supposed to be the test that checked that i had the write syntax
  31. # [00:21] <Hixie> it wasn't suppoed to find bugs
  32. # [00:22] <Hixie> i hate vague specs
  33. # [00:22] <Hixie> (http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/46)
  34. # [00:24] <Hixie> firefox fires the mutation events TWICE when doing innerHTML
  35. # [00:24] <Hixie> -_-
  36. # [00:25] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/47
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  39. # [00:29] <jwalden> Hixie: as far as I could tell the one time I fooled around with mutation events, Gecko's method for dealing with them is basically a spec violation that makes it possible to do things without preemptively grabbing strong refs to everything in sight -- nice impl-wise, but doesn't produce behavior any web developer is going to expect
  40. # [00:29] * jwalden couldn't bring himself to care, for mutation events
  41. # [00:30] <Hixie> man i hope the dom3 events spec either nukes mutation events altogether or defines how they work in enough detail that they can be implemented
  42. # [00:30] <Hixie> i think what would be ideal is for mutation events to move to web dom core actually
  43. # [00:30] <Hixie> since that's where all the requirements would likely have to be to make the spec sane to write
  44. # [00:32] <Lachy> mutation events would have been nice if they were more widely supported. I know there were a few things that would have been easier for me to do in some projects if they were usable in practice, though I can't remember the details.
  45. # [00:34] <Lachy> although, IIRC, I think using XBL bindings would have helped in some of those cases too
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  48. # [00:49] <annevk3> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2009-March/009112.html o_O
  49. # [00:49] <annevk3> I'd love them to open up those ES meetings
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  53. # [00:55] <jwalden> annevk3: not a generalized solution, but could talk to chris pine (?) for scoops, I think
  54. # [00:57] <annevk3> true, I rather not bug him about ES gossip though :)
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  61. # [01:57] <Hixie> ok, fixed dfn.js
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  69. # [03:09] <olliej> Hixie: faruk just pointed out an interesting issue, in that local storage provides no mechanism to perform authentication -- eg. use of local storage, db, etc on a public terminal
  70. # [03:10] <Hixie> ?
  71. # [03:10] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  72. # [03:10] <olliej> Hixie: currently sites know that they should warn users against saving there login, etc on a public terminal
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  74. # [03:11] <olliej> Hixie: but say ye olde online office suite wanted to keep the users documents cached locally, they have no way to do so safely
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  76. # [03:12] <olliej> Hixie: because if the user is on a public terminal all users get the same localStorage/DB
  77. # [03:12] <olliej> Hixie: the site could implement client side encryption if it desired
  78. # [03:13] <olliej> Hixie: but it seems to be something i don't recall seeing discussed
  79. # [03:13] <olliej> eg. lots of poorly thought out web apps could end up exposing user data
  80. # [03:17] <Hixie> if you're on an untrusted terminal, you've lost already. If you're on a trusted public terminal, then the system should clear all cached data (cookies, local storage, databases, history, etc) between users.
  81. # [03:17] <Hixie> i don't understand how this is a new problem
  82. # [03:22] <Hixie> olliej: ^
  83. # [03:22] <Hixie> man i hate how people always talk about I-Ds with their version number
  84. # [03:22] <olliej> Hixie: it's not a new problem (vs. cookies)
  85. # [03:22] <Hixie> it's like people who refer to dated version of the html5 spec instead of the ED
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  87. # [03:23] <olliej> Hixie: the new issue is that it becomes really easy to code a website which doesn't save login credentials (because it's ona public terminal)
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  89. # [03:23] <olliej> but may store user data in local storage without thinking about it
  90. # [03:23] <Hixie> olliej: i can add a warning to the security/privacy part of the spec if you think it'll help (please send mail if so)
  91. # [03:23] <Hixie> but i don't know what else we can do about hat
  92. # [03:23] <Hixie> that
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  113. # [04:47] <olliej> Hixie: yeah neither am i
  114. # [04:47] <olliej> Hixie: (sorry was dinnering)
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  123. # [05:21] <Hixie> renaming <header> to <heading> would be fine by me, I think, assuming that it really has benefits
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  126. # [05:32] <takkaria> I'm not sure a heading is any less purportedly confusing
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  128. # [05:38] <Hixie> leif seems to argue it is less confusing
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  130. # [05:51] <takkaria> I always read "h1" as "heading 1", not "header 1"
  131. # [05:51] <takkaria> and div id="header" matches up with "footer"
  132. # [05:51] <takkaria> but maybe my intutions are weird
  133. # [05:55] <Hixie> i agree with you
  134. # [05:55] <Hixie> to be honest
  135. # [05:55] <Hixie> but if people think <heading> is clearer...
  136. # [05:55] <Hixie> i don't know if they do though, other than leif
  137. # [05:57] <takkaria> and typographically speaking, it's definitely a header and not heading
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  139. # [05:58] <takkaria> you need an intuitionometer, I think. :)
  140. # [05:59] <Hixie> well now it's 1 vs 1 and the status quo usually wins in these situations...
  141. # [06:02] <takkaria> yay for the status quo, I guess
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  149. # [06:57] <Niictar> Err
  150. # [06:57] <Niictar> Hixie: I vote for <heading>
  151. # [06:57] <Niictar> One moment and I'll find the reason why
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  153. # [07:00] <Niictar> <header> allows <address> to nest inside. Which is more than just <h1>..<h6>
  154. # [07:00] <Niictar> <heading> in my mind encompasses more than 1 kind of thing
  155. # [07:01] <Niictar> And I think of <header> like I think of <h1> which is in contradiction of takkaria's intutions
  156. # [07:01] <Niictar> But I guess that just means different people look at it different ways
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  158. # [07:02] <Niictar> But <header> feels like one item to me
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  160. # [07:03] <Niictar> I don't know if more than just <address> can fit (I had guessed <nav> did, but it does not), but again, I like <heading> better
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  162. # [07:22] <Hixie> well we want a name that conveys "only <h1>-<h6> elements go here", but doesn't sound silly. :-)
  163. # [07:22] <Hixie> <hgroup> would be a good name were it not for the sounding silly part
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  167. # [07:37] <Niictar24> Hixie: I know it's a Wiki and what that means, but the examples here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Authoring show <address> within <header>
  168. # [07:38] <Niictar24> And the last time I tried validating those examples using validator.nu, it didn't report any problems
  169. # [07:38] <Niictar24> So, if it's only supposed to have <h1>..<h6>, something is amis?
  170. # [07:41] <Niictar24> Even if it didn't sound silly to you, <hgroup> wouldn't help at all when you can put <address> and <p> elements inside <header>
  171. # [07:41] <Niictar24> (for element names that make sense)
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  178. # [07:48] <Hixie> Niictar24: oh those elements are allowed there, but we still want to not draw attention to that
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  186. # [08:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: you can have a border on body, too, and the margins will collapse
  187. # [08:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: actually... if you specify p { margin:1em 0 } in the style sheet, then margins *don't* collapse
  188. # [08:21] <Hixie> -> mail or bugs please :-)
  189. # [08:21] <Hixie> and it actually depends on the UA, last i checked
  190. # [08:21] <Hixie> webkit uses a special unit
  191. # [08:22] <Hixie> (iirc that was my idea)
  192. # [08:22] <Hixie> not sure about the other UAs
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  197. # [08:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: <heading>? to me that sounds like it's intended to be "<h>" i.e. equivalent to <h1>
  198. # [08:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: but <headings> to me says that h1, h2 etc are to be nested
  199. # [08:41] <zcorpan> (but officially, i couldn't care less)
  200. # [08:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: people think that <header> is what aria calls 'banner'
  201. # [08:43] <zcorpan> i.e. the area at the top that contains the logo and some ads etc
  202. # [08:52] <takkaria> I have this weird suspicion that whatever gets done, it will confuse about the same number of people
  203. # [08:53] <takkaria> e.g. all of those who copy and paste and never read tutorials or specs
  204. # [08:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think both <heading> and <header> are bad. either one gets confused for the other
  205. # [08:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: <hgroup> does not have this issue
  206. # [09:00] <Hixie> <hgroup> is ugly
  207. # [09:01] <Philip`> That's good, because it'll discourage people from using it, so they'll only use it when they understand why and where they're meant to use it
  208. # [09:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: the best parts of hgroup: 1) no -er or -ing, 2) makes it clear it is designed for grouping
  209. # [09:04] <zcorpan> <hg>?
  210. # [09:05] <zcorpan> <h1-h6>?
  211. # [09:07] <zcorpan> we should have a static version of the author view
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  213. # [09:07] <zcorpan> i wonder if the impl bits should be stripped before or after the toc is built
  214. # [09:09] <Hixie> after, but you have to strip the toc too
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  218. # [09:22] <takkaria> e.g. all of those who copy and paste and never read tutorials or specs
  219. # [09:23] <takkaria> I need to stop accidentally repasting things I've already said :)
  220. # [09:23] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  221. # [09:23] <annevk3> http://ajaxian.com/archives/the-vml-changes-in-ie-8 o_O
  222. # [09:24] <virtuelv> VML changes, but no SVG?
  223. # [09:25] <annevk3> The VML changes are about making it more complex to use and making it slower apparently...
  224. # [09:27] <Hixie> hard to complain about them sabotaging their standards compliance efforts when they also do it to their efforts to sabotage their standards compliance efforts!
  225. # [09:28] <zcorpan> makes sense -- they want people to use silverlight instead of svg or canvas (implemented using vml for ie with script)
  226. # [09:29] <Hixie> i doubt that they actualy are trying to make IE bad so that people will use silverlight
  227. # [09:30] <annevk3> They made Word HTML output intentionally bad so that people will stick with Microsoft products
  228. # [09:30] <zcorpan> though maybe the vml changes were unintentional side effects of other changes
  229. # [09:31] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-14-211.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  230. # [09:36] <zcorpan> v\: polyline? standards-compliant css parsing? is there an element with the local name "v:"?
  231. # [09:36] <zcorpan> or do selectors now match either prefix or local name in ie?
  232. # [09:37] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-204-77.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  233. # [09:38] <Hixie> annevk3: true
  234. # [09:43] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/12/site-compatibility-and-ie8.aspx talks about VML selectors a bit
  235. # [09:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: That page says v\:polyline, which sounds more plausible as an element name
  236. # [09:44] <zcorpan> they still match on qname in my non-vml test
  237. # [09:44] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah
  238. # [09:45] <zcorpan> wonder where lrbabe got the space from
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  241. # [09:51] <zcorpan> "Parser error correction for malformed HTML has changed in IE8 Standards Mode." - that sounds scary
  242. # [09:53] <zcorpan> though the </li> handling seems to match html5
  243. # [09:55] <zcorpan> they nest table in p if the p implied body
  244. # [09:55] <zcorpan> and if the p doesn
  245. # [09:55] <zcorpan> t contain other things before the table
  246. # [09:59] <zcorpan> hey they put embed in object in the tree
  247. # [10:00] * Quits: annevk3 (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  248. # [10:00] <zcorpan> but document.x is not a collection
  249. # [10:00] * Joins: harig (n=opera@59.90.71.35)
  250. # [10:01] <zcorpan> for <object name=x><embed name=x>
  251. # [10:01] <zcorpan> document.x returns the object
  252. # [10:01] <Lachy> woah, IE7's parsing matched Firefox, Opera and Safari in that case, so it looks like HTML5 may have had it wrong. But now IE8 matches HTML5 and no other browsers do.
  253. # [10:02] <zcorpan> Lachy: oops
  254. # [10:04] * Parts: annevk42 (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  255. # [10:05] <zcorpan> the ie7 behavior seems more robust
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  258. # [10:10] <zcorpan> they changed attribute ordering
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  263. # [10:17] <Hixie> Lachy: which case?
  264. # [10:18] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  265. # [10:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: <ul><li><ul></li><li>x
  266. # [10:20] <Hixie> d'oh
  267. # [10:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: ie8 and html5 close the inner ul
  268. # [10:21] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@78-27-53-137.dsl.alice.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  272. # [10:40] * jgraham thinks "<hgroup> sounds silly" isn't much of a technical argument
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  275. # [10:42] <Lachy> Leif's proposal to use <heading> seems like it would make the situation worse, since the whole argument for changing <header> is based on the fact that it's not a heading itself
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  278. # [10:43] <Lachy> and some of Leif's arguments for <heading> actually support keeping <header>
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  285. # [10:56] <jgraham> Lachy: e.g.?
  286. # [11:02] <Lachy> jgraham, points B.2. and B.5. in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0722.html
  287. # [11:02] <Lachy> "James has allready documented that authors tend to expect same/parallell features from <header> and <footer>." - suggests that they should keep their similar names
  288. # [11:03] <jgraham> Lachy: The point is that that is not really true. They aren't parallels
  289. # [11:03] <Lachy> what?
  290. # [11:04] <jgraham> Well I'm not sure actually because I don't know what features parallels would have
  291. # [11:05] <Lachy> also "<thead> and <tfoot>, typically referred to as table header/footer, will probably shape authors' understanding of <header>/<footer> as well.", since a section <header> is analogous to a table header <thead>
  292. # [11:06] <Lachy> and as for the meaning of "heading", your argument was that people thought <header> was a direct replacement for <h1>, rather than a container. Using <heading> would only increase that confusion
  293. # [11:07] <Lachy> even though I still think your argument about people's confusion is not well supported
  294. # [11:07] <jgraham> Lachy: I agree that <heading> is a bad name
  295. # [11:07] <jgraham> But <header> has a rather narrow use case grouping to
  296. # [11:07] <jgraham> er
  297. # [11:08] <jgraham> But <header> has a rather narrow use case: grouping together material into a single logical section header
  298. # [11:08] <Philip`> Hmm, on a site I wrote a while ago it appears I used <header> just for surrounding the page heading and logo, because I thought that was what it was for
  299. # [11:08] <Lachy> however, Leif does raise some interesting points about the terminology used within the spec that should be fixed.
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  301. # [11:11] <jgraham> we should call it <logicalheader> and then no one would use it incorrectly. Or at all :)
  302. # [11:12] <Philip`> We should remove it entirely, and then it won't be used incorrectly
  303. # [11:13] <jgraham> Philip`: That is one options, but it does seem like quite a nice feature for the cases where it is needed
  304. # [11:13] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb7e2.l.pppool.de)
  305. # [11:13] <Lachy> no, we need to keep it since it finally allows us to do subheadings properly without messing up the outline
  306. # [11:13] <jgraham> Like <header><h1>My awwesome blog</h1><h2>With an ironic subtitle</h2></header>
  307. # [11:14] <zcorpan> we could add an attribute that indicates subheader, i.e. <h1>Foo</h1><h2 subheading>Bar</h2>
  308. # [11:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: People would just put that on any header with depth > 1
  309. # [11:14] <Lachy> using <header> also allows for more flexibility in styling without requiring authors to add extra divs
  310. # [11:15] <zcorpan> <h2 no-toc>
  311. # [11:15] <Philip`> It seems that approximately nobody uses outlines today, so maybe we should wait a while and see if people start using HTML5's outlines before we add new elements to cope better with rare situations
  312. # [11:15] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-80-126.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  313. # [11:15] <Philip`> Baby steps and all that
  314. # [11:15] <Lachy> Philip`, I use it
  315. # [11:15] <Philip`> Lachy: You're approximately nobody ;-)
  316. # [11:16] <Lachy> Philip`, the replaceHeadings anolis plugin is a good example of how it can be put to good use once its more widely supported
  317. # [11:16] <Lachy> also, screen readers use the outline for page navigation
  318. # [11:16] <Philip`> <h1>Foo <h2>Bar</h2></h1>
  319. # [11:17] <zcorpan> Lachy: i thought they generally had shortcut keys to jump to next hN element
  320. # [11:17] <zcorpan> Philip`: that has parsing issues in some browsers and styling issues in other
  321. # [11:18] <zcorpan> though some other element could work
  322. # [11:18] <Lachy> zcorpan, I thought they had controls to skip to the next heading of a particular level, so they can skip sub sections
  323. # [11:18] <jgraham> Philip`: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/475 gets ~230 downloads/week and https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/475 gets ~300 which is pretty close to nobody but sugeests it isn't a totally useless idea
  324. # [11:18] <Philip`> <h1>Foo<br><small>Bar</small></h1>
  325. # [11:19] <Lachy> but once <section> is more widely deployed and people are using <h1> for all headings, then using the outline will become more important
  326. # [11:20] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah that could work except people will call it presentational and there's likely legacy content that uses small for purposes other than sub headings
  327. # [11:21] <Lachy> jgraham, you just linked to the same addon twice
  328. # [11:21] <jgraham> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7203 is the second one
  329. # [11:22] <zcorpan> (though there's also content that uses small for purposes other than small print so might be moot point)
  330. # [11:33] * Quits: beowulf (i=wiglaf@ps4552.dreamhost.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  331. # [11:39] <Philip`> http://www.opencloudmanifesto.org/ - <img alt=""> everywhere - hooray for accessibility
  332. # [11:40] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@c-71-202-109-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  333. # [11:40] * Joins: beowulf (i=wiglaf@ps4552.dreamhost.com)
  334. # [11:41] <jgraham> That page is awesome
  335. # [11:41] <annevk42> I'm sort of surprised nobody has mentioned self-closing syntax on <style> / <script> yet
  336. # [11:43] <hsivonen> Hixie's "Input on agenda" messages serve to illustrate how the WG is unable to close even issues that have been addressed, such as the legacy-doctype thing which is pending on the registration of the about: URI scheme
  337. # [11:43] <hsivonen> annevk42: feel free to mention it
  338. # [11:43] <hsivonen> what's the deal of the HTML version of the cloud manifesto being split to 6 subpages?
  339. # [11:44] <hsivonen> continuous media FTW!
  340. # [11:44] <annevk42> I'm not sure what to say. The safest thing seems to treat <style> / <script> identical between HTML and SVG, but that is not popular.
  341. # [11:44] <hsivonen> It'd dodgy that the manifesto doesn't say who wrote and started it
  342. # [11:45] <hsivonen> s/'d/'s/
  343. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Interesting. Sun and IBM are supporters. Google, Amazon and Microsoft are not. Seems
  344. # [11:47] <hsivonen> like the target of the manifesto is Amazon/Google and maybe Microsoft
  345. # [11:49] <zcorpan> annevk42: hadn't i mentioned self-closing <style>?
  346. # [11:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10206077-56.html may be relevant
  347. # [11:51] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@pD9578F3C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  348. # [11:51] <annevk42> zcorpan, you did; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0134.html
  349. # [11:52] <Philip`> Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7969458.stm mentions Google pulling out
  350. # [11:55] * Philip` likes it when the cloud gives him a plain old x86 Linux/Windows box he can run anything on, since that's open enough to avoid vendor lock-in
  351. # [11:55] * Joins: ace_me (n=IceChat7@unaffiliated/ace-me/x-814638)
  352. # [11:56] <ace_me> what's about this channel pls ?
  353. # [11:56] <ace_me> I've found you as searching http://www.google.ro/search?hl=ro&q=quicktime+freenode&meta=&aq=f&;oq=
  354. # [11:56] <ace_me> I have a issue with installing quicktime
  355. # [11:56] <annevk42> this channel is not about quicktime
  356. # [11:57] <annevk42> our logs just have a high pagerank
  357. # [11:57] <ace_me> ok annevk42
  358. # [11:57] <ace_me> thx
  359. # [11:58] <ace_me> by the way I am 41
  360. # [11:59] * Parts: ace_me (n=IceChat7@unaffiliated/ace-me/x-814638)
  361. # [11:59] * jgraham feels like he is in an episode of the prisoner
  362. # [11:59] * annevk42 wasn't quite sure whether to say he's 22, that it's a book reference, or just to keep silent
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  366. # [12:07] <mpt> oh, it has a manifesto, therefore it's doomed
  367. # [12:08] <Philip`> It doesn't have a manifesto, it *is* a manifesto
  368. # [12:09] * jgraham wonders if you could destroy the whole cloud computing iniative by vaugely insinuating that cloud computing is like communism because both have manifestos
  369. # [12:10] <Philip`> Seems like it would have been easier if the Open Cloud Manifesto was done as a blog post
  370. # [12:10] <Philip`> and then we'd know who wrote it
  371. # [12:10] <Philip`> and it would be just as easy to ignore
  372. # [12:11] <mpt> jgraham, that didn't work for Linux
  373. # [12:12] <Philip`> Their markup is great
  374. # [12:12] <Philip`> <div class="xr_tl" style="left: 0px; top: 62px;">The buzz around cloud computing has reached a fever pitch. Some believe it is a </div>
  375. # [12:12] <Philip`> <div class="xr_tl" style="left: 0px; top: 81px;">disruptive trend representing the next stage in the evolution of the Internet. Others </div>
  376. # [12:12] <Philip`> <div class="xr_tl" style="left: 0px; top: 100px;">believe it is hype, as it uses long established computing technologies. As with any </div>
  377. # [12:13] <Dashiva> They're waiting for <l>
  378. # [12:13] <Dashiva> Clearly XHTML2 is in demand
  379. # [12:16] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opencloudmanifesto.org%2Fopencloudmanifesto1.htm only reports minor syntax issues, and does not report that the page is insane
  380. # [12:17] <Dashiva> Is that a machine-checkable condition?
  381. # [12:17] <Philip`> That's not my problem
  382. # [12:18] <Philip`> But surely you could check the ratio div/spans and see that the only other elements are a and img, so clearly the page is failing to use appropriate elements
  383. # [12:18] <Philip`> s/ratio/ratio of/
  384. # [12:19] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  385. # [12:19] <mpt> heuristic validation, eh
  386. # [12:20] <Philip`> It works for spam filtering, it should work for markup validation too
  387. # [12:25] <zcorpan> Philip`: would the page be less insane if the divs were replaced with <p>s?
  388. # [12:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: No, so you'd have to use some other heuristics too, like checking that the contents of <p>s are complete sentences and not split-up fragments
  389. # [12:28] <zcorpan> Philip`: it's a race to the bottom of heuristics vs even more insane workarounds to silence the validator
  390. # [12:29] <Dashiva> Spam is getting pretty good at fooling detectors too
  391. # [12:29] <zcorpan> Philip`: that's why the spec was changed to allow e.g. empty paragraphs
  392. # [12:29] <Dashiva> Just look at all that amazing poetry they churn out
  393. # [12:30] <Philip`> zcorpan: At some point it will be easier to write good clean markup than to write insane workarounds to silence the validator
  394. # [12:30] <Philip`> and then we'll have won
  395. # [12:30] <Dashiva> But at what cost?
  396. # [12:30] <zcorpan> and what's the benefit?
  397. # [12:31] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's a good example - the heuristics have forced spam to increase in literary value until it's often more interesting than non-spam emails
  398. # [12:32] * Philip` goes away for a bit
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  400. # [12:44] <Lachy> I'm guessing Hixie never got his earthquake prevention kit returned, since there was a quake in Mountain View. ;-) http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2009/03/earthquake_litt.html
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  421. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=66
  422. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> if/when you have time to review
  423. # [13:56] <Philip`> Are rel values in RDFa meant to be case-insensitive?
  424. # [13:57] <Philip`> (I saw http://planet.mozilla.org/ has some rel="cc:attributionurl", when it's meant to be attributionURL)
  425. # [13:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks good, except instead of looking up the for attribute by name individually, I'd pick up the value in the loop that loops over all the attributes anyway
  426. # [13:57] <hsivonen> I now see that the old WF 2.0 templating stuff needs removing
  427. # [13:58] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  428. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, noticed that too
  429. # [13:58] <zcorpan> Philip`: no, but maybe they should be
  430. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: without declaring the prefix, of course
  431. # [13:59] <zcorpan> maybe some prefixes should be hardcoded, too
  432. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I will send a patch for the removal of the templating stuff as well
  433. # [14:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: great! thanks
  434. # [14:00] <hsivonen> it seems it's not Planet Mozilla's fault that xmlns:cc is not there. it's not in the original, either.
  435. # [14:02] <Philip`> Hmm... http://armenzg.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-add-creative-commons-license-to.html has attributionURL
  436. # [14:02] <Philip`> It also has cc="http://creativecommons.org/ns#"
  437. # [14:02] <Philip`> (but no xmlns:cc)
  438. # [14:03] <Philip`> in both the textarea and the raw code
  439. # [14:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: and an NC license :-(
  440. # [14:04] <Philip`> Does Planet Mozilla strip the cc attribute and make rel lowercase, including in the textarea code? or is it not quite that crazy, and the original blog post just got updated later?
  441. # [14:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: if Planet Mozilla runs Venus, I'd expect it to drop a CC attribute and lowercase rel
  442. # [14:05] <Philip`> Inside <textarea> too?
  443. # [14:05] <hsivonen> unlikely
  444. # [14:06] <Philip`> I suppose it might if it gets parsed as XML, so <textarea><a cc/></textarea> is sanitised and then printed as <textarea><a /></textarea>
  445. # [14:07] <Philip`> (which displays as a textarea containing the string "<a />")
  446. # [14:12] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  447. # [14:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: i'm not sure i like the idea of enumerating namespaces and elements in web dom core
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  450. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: updated patch:
  451. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=67
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  453. # [14:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: look good except ("for" == attLocal) should be ("for" == attLocal && "label" == localName)
  454. # [14:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: with that change, r=hsivonen
  455. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: excellent -- thanks. will make that change and get it checked in
  456. # [14:37] * Philip` likes it adds nine lines of code just so you can read a field
  457. # [14:37] <Philip`> *likes how
  458. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> you should see how many lines of code it adds if you want to check it in XPath
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  461. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I still need to add a check on <label> for the constraint "with at most one descendant labelable form-associated element"
  462. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> maybe can get that done today
  463. # [14:53] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  464. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> "labelable form-associated element" seems redundant, given that "labelable" is defined as a subcategory of "form-associated element"
  465. # [14:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hmm. good point. that seems to need another bit on the bitfield
  466. # [14:56] <hsivonen> to track labels being on the stack regardless of whether it has the for attribute
  467. # [14:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so that bit should go into the low bits using the existing element bit mechanism
  468. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: why not the high bits?
  469. # [14:57] <hsivonen> and then the stack node also needs a flag that gets set upon the first labelable ancestor
  470. # [14:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: because there's a generic mechanism for element bits
  471. # [14:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it turns out that label already has a bit, since it is in SPECIAL_ANCESTORS
  472. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  473. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you mean stack-node flag needs to get set on first labelable descendant, right?
  474. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> (not ancestor)
  475. # [15:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right
  476. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> k
  477. # [15:06] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  478. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about assertions.sch, would you object to me changing the id() checks into either (1) explicit checks for the id attribute, or (2) checks for id|xml:id ?
  479. # [15:13] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-67-189.dynamic.amis.net)
  480. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> I ask because I think it would be good to be able to use assertions.sch with plain-vanialla jing
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  482. # [15:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my kneejerk reaction is against checking the attributes instead of id()
  483. # [15:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but I don't remember why I wanted to migrate towards id()
  484. # [15:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: supposing that xml:id isn't that interesting to support, what downsides would there be with comparing id attribute with WS-normalization vs. id()?
  485. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: downside is that a stock schematron checker does not know that id() should check attributes named "id", right?
  486. # [15:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I meant does doing what you are proposing minus checks for xml:id have any downsides?
  487. # [15:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the downside of id() is clear to me
  488. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oh, I se
  489. # [15:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: If you change it away from id() to check agains @id, I think xml:id support could be thrown out at the same time
  490. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I can't really think of any downsides.
  491. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> though maybe somebody who knows more about XPath and XSLT could
  492. # [15:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. I think the change is OK then (given care with zapping leading and trailing spaces)
  493. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> OK
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  497. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> do XML parsers in browsers actually do what's expected with xml:id anyway?
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  499. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> I mean as far as using a fragment reference to an xml:id in a hyperlink
  500. # [15:35] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: opera does... though an element can only have one ID
  501. # [15:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's expected? ;-) Opera assigns IDness to xml:id. Gecko and WebKit don't.
  502. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> I guess I'd assume that expected would be to assign IDness
  503. # [15:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: moreover, xml:id support has been explicitly rejected from both Gecko and WebKit but for different reasons
  504. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> I see
  505. # [15:36] <hsivonen> the Gecko rejection was due to perf issue
  506. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> then seems like xml:id should be considered harmful
  507. # [15:36] <zcorpan> wasn't it implemented in gecko at some point?
  508. # [15:36] <hsivonen> and, IIRC, the WebKit rejection was in order to avoid stuff that isn't needed
  509. # [15:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: my understanding is that it was on the trunk for a short while
  510. # [15:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  511. # [15:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: smaug knows the details, since he wrote the patch
  512. # [15:37] <zcorpan> maybe i should push for it to be dropped in opera
  513. # [15:37] <hsivonen> please do
  514. # [15:38] <zcorpan> along with xml 1.1 :)
  515. # [15:38] <taf2> is there any plan to have a blob api in html5 ? i don't see any mention of it in the specs/web-apps
  516. # [15:39] <taf2> or maybe i'm looking for the wrong name?
  517. # [15:39] <zcorpan> though i suspect dropping 1.1 means implementing 1.0 5e
  518. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> taf2: there was some discussion in the webapps wg, iirc
  519. # [15:39] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  520. # [15:39] <hsivonen> taf2: APIs in that ballpark are in the realm of the Web Apps WG
  521. # [15:39] <taf2> hsivonen: ah... does that mean i'm in the wrong place?
  522. # [15:40] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  523. # [15:41] <hsivonen> taf2: not quite wrong but #webapps on the W3C IRC server would be a more correct place for reaching the interested parties for discussing blog speccing
  524. # [15:41] <annevk42> taf2, there's a specific webapps wg channel but it's not very active
  525. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> taf2:
  526. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/thread.html#msg186
  527. # [15:42] <annevk42> taf2, blob was briefly discussed here yesterday though
  528. # [15:43] <annevk42> or "today" http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090331#l-6
  529. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> taf2: maybe could also try ask weinig on #webkit
  530. # [15:46] <taf2> thanks all.. lots of information for me to collect
  531. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: as far as zapping leading and trailing spaces, is there something more I should do than just using normalize-space() ?
  532. # [15:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops. actually, HTML5 id shouldn't undergo space-normalization
  533. # [15:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: or so I think
  534. # [15:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so no normalize-space(). sorry.
  535. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess I should read the spec
  536. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> OK, np
  537. # [15:58] <hsivonen> "If the value is not the empty string, user agents must associate the element with the given value (exactly, including any space characters) for the purposes of ID matching--"
  538. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  539. # [16:05] <annevk42> hmm, I guess for xml:id this is different due to the XML parser
  540. # [16:05] <annevk42> I suppose it's undefined whether it's different on the DOM level?
  541. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> I guess I could just use local-name() = "id"
  542. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> but would there be any point?
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  548. # [16:32] <hsivonen> annevk42: Isn't xml:id processing quite defined?
  549. # [16:33] <hsivonen> annevk42: in the case of XHTML5 id, the XML parser would perform AVNormalize before the HTML5 rule is applied
  550. # [16:33] <hsivonen> annevk42: but normalizing space in XPath would be wrong, becaus XHTML5 id could containt NCR-escaped spaces
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  552. # [16:41] <annevk42> hsivonen, what if you set xml:id through the DOM
  553. # [16:42] <annevk42> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-id/#id-avn
  554. # [16:42] <annevk42> they state as if those rules should apply to id="" as well
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  557. # [16:48] <hsivonen> annevk42: who'd set an attribute via the DOM? :-)
  558. # [16:59] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  559. # [16:59] <Philip`> Setting attributes via the DOM? Sounds like imperative scripting, which went out of fashion years ago
  560. # [17:03] <gsnedders> hi babes
  561. # [17:03] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  562. # [17:04] <Philip`> Wrong channel? :-p
  563. # [17:04] <gsnedders> no
  564. # [17:04] <gsnedders> :P
  565. # [17:04] <gsnedders> You expect logic
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  569. # [17:18] <gsnedders> What are we doing for tomorrow?
  570. # [17:21] <myakura> it's already apr 1 here :(
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  587. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=68
  588. # [18:21] <zcorpan> jhäiä
  589. # [18:21] <zcorpan> jnm
  590. # [18:21] <zcorpan> pjon
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  593. # [18:21] <zcorpan> jag heter simon igenklien inte zcorpan
  594. # [18:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: seems reasonable but my XPath skills aren't good enough to say if it's OK
  595. # [18:22] * Quits: svl_ (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  596. # [18:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if // means descendant, looks good
  597. # [18:24] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It's the same as node::self-or-descendant
  598. # [18:24] <gsnedders> (or it is descendant-or-self?)
  599. # [18:24] * gsnedders still thinks an advert saying, "How do I ask her out?", is inappropriate on a page about Lolita
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  601. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, leading // just means descendant of root, so matches any occurrence anywhere in the document
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  605. # [18:37] <annevk42> MikeSmith, why does it say "HIDEN" instead of "HIDDEN"?
  606. # [18:37] <annevk42> oh nm
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  608. # [18:37] <annevk42> it's inside translate
  609. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> annevk42: it's just a string translation, yeah
  610. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> yeah
  611. # [18:37] <annevk42> there's no case-insensitive matching?
  612. # [18:38] <annevk42> or do you get Turkish i issues then?
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  619. # [18:51] * gsnedders sighs at people bitching about bugs without reporting them or saying what they are
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  621. # [18:52] <Dashiva> "The program crashed. My computer is fine, so I'm not posting error details."
  622. # [18:54] <Philip`> You shouldn't write buggy code in the first place!
  623. # [18:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: I don't think it is buggy
  624. # [18:55] <Philip`> You shouldn't write code which somebody could interpret as being buggy in the first place!
  625. # [18:55] * gsnedders shrugs
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  627. # [18:58] <jgraham> You shouldn't shrug
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  629. # [19:03] * gsnedders uploads the side-effect of staying up all night working on English dissertation
  630. # [19:03] <gsnedders> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/3401411365/
  631. # [19:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: Try a 2:1 crop
  632. # [19:06] <jgraham> (less sky)
  633. # [19:06] <jgraham> (because most of the interesting colours are in the bottom 50% of the picture, and having slightly more foreground would make it more balanced IMHO
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  635. # [19:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also, re Rosenkällasjön, I pronounce it incorrectly
  636. # [19:08] <jgraham> For sure
  637. # [19:08] <gsnedders> :)
  638. # [19:09] * MikeSmith smiles at "Turkish i issues"
  639. # [19:09] <jgraham> (I would guess Rrooo-sen-kaell-as-yoen)
  640. # [19:10] <jgraham> (But I really really do not know any Swedish pronounciation)
  641. # [19:10] <jgraham> (Partially because our teacher won't teach us it yet)
  642. # [19:10] <gsnedders> That sounds like a good way to teach a language
  643. # [19:11] <jgraham> :)
  644. # [19:11] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Who is hving Turkish I issues?
  645. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> jgraham: comment from annevk42 above
  646. # [19:12] <jgraham> Oh, I see
  647. # [19:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: I quite like the texture of the colour of the blues in the upper half of the photo though
  648. # [19:12] * gsnedders was pondering whether to crop it before
  649. # [19:12] * jgraham guesses it is time to go home
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  698. # [20:51] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  701. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: one more patch if you still awake
  702. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=70
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  719. # [22:05] * gsnedders wonders whether http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/211/ means the start of April 1st or the end of April 1st
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  722. # [22:07] <takkaria> how about "on April 1st". :)
  723. # [22:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: And which timezone?
  724. # [22:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, that's my other issue, especially if it means 2009-03-31T23:59:59+02:00
  725. # [22:09] <Philip`> I suppose you could always not leave it until literally the last minute
  726. # [22:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: I don't intend on doing so, but I still need to finish CV
  727. # [22:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: It seems like the Swedish internships don't have the same deadline
  728. # [22:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: Those are apparently meant for 2008!
  729. # [22:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: (And apparently someone screwed up in the website redesign)
  730. # [22:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: I was under the impression we had internships in linkoping this year (although I guess I might have misunderstood how things work or something)
  731. # [22:14] <jgraham> So it seems worth applying
  732. # [22:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Apparently you do. Apparently what I linked to isn't exclusively Oslo.
  733. # [22:14] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  734. # [22:14] <jgraham> Oh, I see
  735. # [22:14] * gsnedders probably ought to ask around here to see if anyone here can give a reference
  736. # [22:15] <gsnedders> Though it probably ought not be someone working for Op
  737. # [22:15] <gsnedders> (Hixie?)
  738. # [22:15] <jgraham> Yeah :)
  739. # [22:15] <takkaria> yeah, in my phone interview, I believe I was told that the internships were linkoping
  740. # [22:16] * gsnedders has convinced his English teacher to do a character reference for him… and he's Norwegian, coincidentally :P
  741. # [22:16] <Philip`> Character reference, like &gsnedders; ?
  742. # [22:16] * gsnedders headdesks
  743. # [22:16] <takkaria> I took the easy way out, and said "references available on request"
  744. # [22:16] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@L9859.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  745. # [22:17] * gsnedders is tempted to do that on grounds that it gives him a few more days
  746. # [22:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: I don't think you need to worry about references unless they ask for them
  747. # [22:18] <jgraham> Just get your CV and cover letter together. Now.
  748. # [22:18] <jgraham> :)
  749. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Do I really need to copy Hixie and have an "Objective"?
  750. # [22:18] * gsnedders has never come across that before
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  753. # [22:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
  754. # [22:22] * gsnedders thought not
  755. # [22:22] <svl> gsnedders: an objective (or sometimes profile) is just a way to describe yourself at a higher level; what _you_ are looking for (helpful with determining if you're a good fit, and showing where you want your focus to lie). It can be useful, but is never essential.
  756. # [22:28] * gsnedders has mouse battery die on him
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  763. # [22:45] * gsnedders hopes rendering issues with CV in IE7 isn't an issue
  764. # [22:45] * gsnedders expects not
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  769. # [23:01] <gsnedders> http://secret.gsnedders.com/foo3.html — why does the date appear below the title in IE7?
  770. # [23:02] * gsnedders may as well fix it if someone can find out why
  771. # [23:02] * gsnedders doesn't currently have access to IE7
  772. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Can I coerce a couple of people here at looking at my CV?
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  779. # [23:21] <jos3ph> Are all of the python html5lib 0.11 tests expected to pass? I got "failures=23, errors=527" on Debian Etch with python2.4.
  780. # [23:30] <takkaria> gsnedders: happily will look at it when it's done
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  783. # [23:33] <roc> annevk42: ping?
  784. # [23:34] <annevk42> pong?
  785. # [23:38] <annevk42> someone should prolly explain why http://adactio.com/journal/1564 is wrong
  786. # [23:43] <annevk42> specifically, role=banner is duplication of section 4.4.10.2 and role=search is duplication of type=search; a <form> with type=search control in it is the search form
  787. # [23:46] <annevk42> also, the comment was not about role=banner, but about role=heading and how that affects the document outline
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  790. # [23:47] <annevk42> (it's also not about "false clash
  791. # [23:48] <annevk42> oops
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  794. # [23:50] <Hixie> annevk42: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6491
  795. # [23:50] <Hixie> annevk42: how does wrap=off differ from wrap=soft? is it only a rendering difference?
  796. # [23:50] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  797. # [23:51] <annevk42> (I meant to say that this should not about vocab1 versus vocab2.)
  798. # [23:51] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  799. # [23:52] <annevk42> Hixie, could be, I forgot :/
  800. # [23:52] <Hixie> how do you propose i fix the bug? :-)
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  802. # [23:54] <roc> annevk42: sorry ...
  803. # [23:55] <annevk42> Hixie, rendering wise I suppose; I haven't looked at submission
  804. # [23:55] <Hixie> should it be conforming? or just a legacy value?
  805. # [23:55] <roc> annevk42: I'd kinda like to add window.innerScreenX/innerScreenY, to give the screen coordinates of the top-left of the viewport ... do you think that would be bad?
  806. # [23:55] <annevk42> legacy since it's just rendering
  807. # [23:56] <annevk42> roc, it's not pretty
  808. # [23:56] <roc> it's prettier than screenX/Y, which are basically useless since you don't know how much window chrome there is
  809. # [23:57] <annevk42> and we can't break screenX/Y?
  810. # [23:57] <roc> I'm reluctant to
  811. # [23:57] <Hixie> just define screenX/Y to be innerScreenX/Y with a fixed offset
  812. # [23:57] <annevk42> note that with these two additional attributes you can know how much space chrome takes up at the top and left, is that a problem?
  813. # [23:58] <Hixie> that way you don't break compat, and you still have the predictability
  814. # [23:58] <Hixie> (still not pretty though)
  815. # [23:58] <roc> annevk42: I don't think so
  816. # [23:59] <annevk42> are you just implementing these to fill a gap or is there some request that triggers this?
  817. # [23:59] <roc> that value hardly ever changes anyway, if you just guessed values based on the user-agent you'd be right most of the time
  818. # [23:59] <annevk42> true
  819. # [23:59] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-2d94e133aad827ff) (Remote closed the connection)
  820. # [23:59] <roc> hang on interrupt
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  823. # Session Close: Wed Apr 01 00:00:00 2009

The end :)