/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> annevk42, roc: seems like reusing screenX/Y without breaking compat but defining a fixed required offset is the simplest solution, no?
  4. # [00:01] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.36)
  5. # [00:02] <karlcow> [17:35] <annevk42> someone should prolly explain why http://adactio.com/journal/1564 is wrong
  6. # [00:02] <karlcow> interesting. In a sense, it's almost the only logical answer. Because each community is convinced the other one is wrong. (hmmmm more thinking about communities expressing themselves but not listening)
  7. # [00:02] <annevk42> adactio is not really part of either community
  8. # [00:03] * karlcow cqfd
  9. # [00:03] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  10. # [00:03] <annevk42> puh
  11. # [00:04] <annevk42> Hixie, it's very ugly
  12. # [00:05] <annevk42> and it changes really really old APIs which is troublesome at best
  13. # [00:06] <roc> Hixie: that breaks the invariant that window.screenX/Y is equal to the window.open top/left parameters
  14. # [00:06] <Hixie> ah
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> well i'm happy to drop support for window.open()'s features argument anyway
  16. # [00:06] <roc> although that invariant doesn't always hold for various reasons, it's hard to predict what effect that might have
  17. # [00:06] <Hixie> so :-)
  18. # [00:08] <annevk42> textarea[wrap=off] { white-space:no-wrap }
  19. # [00:12] <annevk42> hmm, we're not controversial enough anymore for mr last week: http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/03/shutting-shit-down.html
  20. # [00:13] <Hixie> wow, mr last week is still going on?
  21. # [00:13] <Hixie> i haven't looked at it in months
  22. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Oh sure
  23. # [00:13] <gsnedders> He's gone down-hill from his prior fun, but still marches on
  24. # [00:13] <annevk42> it's really boring, yeah
  25. # [00:16] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-80-126.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  26. # [00:19] <Hixie> on another note, maybe we should try to encourage the whatwg community to review the spec over the coming few weeks or months
  27. # [00:19] <Hixie> in preparation for last call
  28. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Pay us!
  29. # [00:21] <Philip`> More generically: Incentivise us!
  30. # [00:21] <Philip`> Money is expensive, but give people points and badges and things
  31. # [00:21] <gsnedders> 2.56 CHF for each comment!
  32. # [00:21] <Hixie> interesting idea
  33. # [00:22] <Hixie> the points, not the money :-P
  34. # [00:22] <Hixie> i wonder how to do it in a way that leads to quality reviews
  35. # [00:22] * gsnedders slumps back down
  36. # [00:23] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris@118-93-172-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  37. # [00:24] * Philip` was reading http://lostgarden.com/2008/10/princess-rescuing-application-slides.html a while ago about applying game design principles to other activities
  38. # [00:26] <Philip`> although I'm not sure that's relevant to anything at all
  39. # [00:26] <Philip`> except to the extent that giving people points and achievements seems a gameish thing to do and an effective way to make people sink huge amounts of time into stuff
  40. # [00:27] * Lachy presses the button only to realise that it's just a link to a larger version of the image.
  41. # [00:27] * Lachy wonders if the princess will ever be rescued ;-)
  42. # [00:29] <Philip`> Of course she won't - the princess is always in another castle
  43. # [00:34] <karlcow> s/castle/ivory tower/
  44. # [00:35] <annevk42> Hixie, reddit style?
  45. # [00:35] <annevk42> Hixie, allowing people to vote up/down reviews/comments
  46. # [00:35] <Hixie> if we could do this without actually requiring any code that would be ideal :-)
  47. # [00:35] <Hixie> i don't want to spend six weeks writing a tool to get more feedback :-)
  48. # [00:36] <annevk42> I heard reddit is open source
  49. # [00:36] <karlcow> StackOverflow has a nice community system, though a bit too much boyscout (quite protestant in fact)
  50. # [00:36] <Philip`> annevk42: What would the benefit of voting be? Presumably Hixie's going to read all the comments anyway, so nobody has a reason to vote on anybody else's comments
  51. # [00:38] <gsnedders> re: voting. http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/06/2017254&from=rss
  52. # [00:39] <karlcow> gsnedders: have you tried stackoverflow? There is a kind of credentials system with more rights step by step depending on the value of your contribution.
  53. # [00:40] <gsnedders> karlcow: Not much. But I've seen that fall into the same trap as digg :(
  54. # [00:40] <karlcow> Ah interesting, I didn't have the same feeling
  55. # [00:41] <Philip`> Clearly what we need is a virtual fishtank where you get to add a fish for each valid piece of feedback you send, because everybody wants pretty fish
  56. # [00:42] <gsnedders> In http://secret.gsnedders.com/foo3.html the date beside the header appears (vertically) down below it, as if the margin isn't being set to zero on the date. Without a copy of IE (of any version, yet alone 7 specifically, where this issue occurs) to play with, I'm rather lost about possible causes. Any ideas?
  57. # [00:42] <roc> annevk42: so ... would innerScreenX/Y make me a bad person?
  58. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Positively evil!
  59. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Wait, no, negatively evil!
  60. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Actually, hmm…
  61. # [00:43] <gsnedders> :P
  62. # [00:43] <karlcow> oooh
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  68. # [00:53] <annevk42> roc, the use case is still not really compelling
  69. # [00:54] <annevk42> roc, i'd rather we not do it, but if we have to those would be the best names
  70. # [00:55] <roc> ok
  71. # [00:56] <roc> I'll probably add mozInnerScreenX/Y then
  72. # [00:57] <annevk42> ah, it's getBoxObjectFor() fallout?
  73. # [00:57] <annevk42> that works
  74. # [00:58] <roc> yeah
  75. # [00:58] <roc> some people were using getBoxObjectFor to get screen coords
  76. # [00:58] <roc> not really for Web content though which is why I can't give a good use case
  77. # [01:03] * karlcow is discovering http://www.peertopatent.org/
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  91. # [02:11] <Hixie> philip: i like the subtle change at the end
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  93. # [02:14] * Philip` couldn't think of anything more interesting to do
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  141. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> nico1: for more on whatwg, see http://www.whatwg.org/
  142. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> note also that this channel and #html-wg and #webapps are logged, and you can read the logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
  143. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> mostly we talk about HTML5 and browser stuff
  144. # [06:40] <nico1> thanks a lot MikeSmith !
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  152. # [07:11] <Niictar24> Hrm
  153. # [07:12] * Niictar24 contemplates reading up on the content model
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  157. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> nico1: http://validator.nu/
  158. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> http://about.validator.nu/
  159. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml
  160. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  161. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> nico1: ↑
  162. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#parsing
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  164. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> nico1: http://blog.whatwg.org/validatornu-html-parser-120
  165. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/
  166. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
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  168. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/list
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  171. # [08:01] <hsivonen> sigh at the adactio post. some really should explain why we don't like landmarks, but I guess blogging on April 1 is a bad idea
  172. # [08:02] <hsivonen> (or, rather, why we don't like architectural forms as the means of expressing landmarks)
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  178. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I'm discovering a bit about schematron
  179. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> e.g., it has a <name/> element to report the name of the context node
  180. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> so one can do, e.g.:
  181. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> [[
  182. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> <rule context='h:h1|h:h2|h:h3|h:h4|h:h5|h:h6'>
  183. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> <report test='ancestor::h:footer'>
  184. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> The <name/> element must not
  185. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> appear as a descendant of the
  186. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> &#x201C;footer&#x201D; element.
  187. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> </report>
  188. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> ]]
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  190. # [08:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: does that work in Jing?
  191. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> yeah, it does
  192. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> I just tested it
  193. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> it's in Schematron 1.5, and Jing supports that
  194. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> or does now at least
  195. # [08:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: interesting. I knew Rick Jelliffe's XSLT implementation had something like that but I always thought it was a later addition
  196. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> I'd guess that it might now have previously
  197. # [08:45] <hsivonen> that's possible
  198. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> anyway, if I use <name>, it could eliminate a whole lotta redunancy that's in assertions.sch now
  199. # [08:46] <hsivonen> seems like a good idea
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  201. # [08:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=70 looks good, except I don't see you using the label locators at all for location reporting.
  202. # [08:50] * MikeSmith looks back at patch
  203. # [08:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's the purpose of collecting forVals into a set first instead of doing the id matching as part of the stack walk?
  204. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: purpose is mainly that's just the simplest way it initially occurred to me to do it.
  205. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I should just set a boolean instead?
  206. # [08:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: preferably, yes
  207. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> when it finds a match for the id value?
  208. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
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  210. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about your other question, I'm still looking
  211. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so you saying that it's better not to use the locator mechanism at all for this label case?
  212. # [08:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: or you could also emit a warning that gives the location of the label
  213. # [08:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: unless that turns out to suck as UI. I'm not sure if giving the location of the label would be helpful or annoying from a user POV
  214. # [08:57] <danbri> anyone got a nice simple demo page, showing the use of the HTML5 SQL API?
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  216. # [08:58] * danbri hoping i can pre-populate a database with sqllite elsewhere...
  217. # [08:58] <billyjackass> hsivonen: do you think it would be useful to emit those warnings? or overkill?
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  222. # [09:15] <Lachy> I wish people would at least try to make april fools jokes sound plausible http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/31/1950221&from=rss
  223. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> damn, the quality of postings from Slashdot writers is otherwise so exceptional
  224. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you've burst my bubble of deep appreciation for Slashdot
  225. # [09:20] <Dashiva> Lachy: That sounds a lot like... http://www.lunascape.tv/
  226. # [09:20] * Hixie goes to replace his sarcasm detector
  227. # [09:21] * Dashiva checks the whatwg blog
  228. # [09:21] <Hixie> blimey, the aria spec is over 80 pages long
  229. # [09:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I put in warnings like that for some table integrity checking stuff. I don't have user feedback complaining about those.
  230. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, I will add it then
  231. # [09:23] <Dashiva> http://labs.opera.com/news/2009/04/01/
  232. # [09:23] <Dashiva> This would be awesome
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  234. # [09:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: so... aria. what should i say in the spec?
  235. # [09:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: should i just defer to the wai-aria spec and say that the attributes it defines can be used in html5 for accessibility purposes?
  236. # [09:32] <Hixie> or should i list something explicitly? or what?
  237. # [09:32] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  238. # [09:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: I had expected the ongoing task force to figure out what makes sense
  239. # [09:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: on the topic of UA conformance:
  240. # [09:46] <hsivonen> defer to the ARIA implementation guide and a (AFAIK) so far non-existent document on resolving native semantic and ARIA semantic conflicts in client implementation
  241. # [09:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: on the topic of authoring conformance: defer states and properties authoring to ARIA and role applicability to given HTML elements to so far non-existent document hopefully flowing out of the work of the task force
  242. # [09:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you want to address FUD along the lines of HTML5 hating ARIA, you could already put in notes that defer to the parts of the ARIA spec family that exist
  243. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: so to elaborate
  244. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: the task force documents accessibility API mappings for old HTML and ARIA (and perhaps new HTML5 stuff)
  245. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: from those mappings, it's possible to see what HTML bits and ARIA bits overlap
  246. # [09:53] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  247. # [09:53] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  248. # [09:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: then it's necessary to define what UAs should do when they get mixed signals (HTML semantics and ARIA role set inconsistently)
  249. # [09:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: or what should happen if an element has a native accessibiilty API mapping and has states and properties as aria-* attributes with no role
  250. # [09:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: hopefully in due course this will live in a W3C document somewhere
  251. # [09:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: so reference that for UA conformance
  252. # [09:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: then, *given* the behaviors documented in that document, some element/role combinations will be non-sensical. I think those should be flaggable as non-conforming by validators.
  253. # [09:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: but defining those cases needs to wait until the UA conformance reqs show what combinations are non-sensical to author
  254. # [09:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: if it were up to me, I'd put a statement of intent to this direction as a note in the HTML 5 spec
  255. # [09:59] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I should review the latest draft of ARIA
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  260. # [10:27] * jgraham agrees ith pretty much everything hsivoen said, fwiw
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  263. # [10:41] * hsivonen finally starts dogfooding HTML5 parsing builds (not an April fools joke)
  264. # [10:41] * Joins: svl_ (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  265. # [10:44] * jgraham wonders if hsivonen will append (not an aprils fools joke to all statements made today)
  266. # [10:44] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  267. # [10:44] <jgraham> s/(// s//(/
  268. # [10:44] <jgraham> actually I didn't need any brackets
  269. # [10:44] <jgraham> sigh
  270. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: hopefully only the ones that seem potentially unbelievable
  271. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Actually, as far as a parser goes, I've been ready for dogfood for a while now. I was waiting for an image cache crasher to go away
  272. # [10:46] <takkaria> hm, that's like xkcd's (no pun intended)
  273. # [10:53] <jgraham> takkaria: Really? How would you use it? Like I hear they're making an HTML 5 (not an april fools joke)
  274. # [10:57] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  275. # [11:02] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  276. # [11:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: "<li>There can only be one character encoding declaration in the document.</p>"
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  280. # [11:33] <hsivonen> hmm. identi.ca looks wrong with the HTML5 parser
  281. # [11:33] <hsivonen> all the content is "below the fold"
  282. # [11:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: You got new try builds avaliable?
  283. # [11:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes. https://build.mozilla.org/tryserver-builds/2009-03-30_05:34-hsivonen@iki.fi-try-19afbfe310c/
  284. # [11:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: it doesn't have all the latest namespace fixes
  285. # [11:35] <hsivonen> XPath in text/html is probably broken in that build
  286. # [11:39] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-198-156.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  287. # [11:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: That build reliably crashes when visiting the live dom viewer
  288. # [11:42] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  289. # [11:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: identi.ca doesn't have any interesting parse errors
  290. # [11:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: on which platform? WFM on Mac.
  291. # [11:47] <hsivonen> oops. not WFM
  292. # [11:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: crashes here, too. thanks.
  293. # [11:48] <zcorpan> i still wonder why the parser should imply <colgroup>
  294. # [11:48] <hsivonen> aargh. the image cache crash is still there
  295. # [11:48] <zcorpan> and why the content model requires colgroup around col
  296. # [11:48] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-14-211.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  297. # [11:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: do you also see imgCacheEntry stuff on the top of the crash stack?
  298. # [11:49] <hsivonen> --> Lunch
  299. # [11:49] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  300. # [11:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: Does col without colgroup make any sense?
  301. # [11:52] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  302. # [11:53] <zcorpan> jgraham: just as much as tr without tbody. lone col is valid in html4 and xhtml1
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  305. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=71
  306. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: just tweaked to set boolean hasFor instead of collecting the "for" values
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  309. # [12:27] <zcorpan> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cp%3E%3Cobject%3E%3Cp%3E%3C%2Fobject%3E%3C%2Fp%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.write(document.getElementsByTagName('object').length)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  310. # [12:27] * zcorpan is really confused
  311. # [12:27] <zcorpan> try that in ie8
  312. # [12:29] * Quits: raspberry-lemon (n=lemon@raspberry-style.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  313. # [12:29] <Lachy> Hixie, the Live DOM Viewer clipboard is broken
  314. # [12:29] <Lachy> clipboard.cgi returns 404
  315. # [12:31] <Lachy> oh, no, it's not. That's Philip`s DOM viewer.
  316. # [12:32] <Lachy> I didn't realise zcorpan had linked to it instead
  317. # [12:32] <jgraham> Lachy: The differencde is somewhat important :)
  318. # [12:33] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@pD9578EED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  319. # [12:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks good. You could also break immediately after hasFor = true;
  320. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
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  342. # [13:24] <Dashiva> Darn, we've been shut down
  343. # [13:26] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9859.l.pppool.de)
  344. # [13:29] <Lachy> Dashiva, do you mean by Mr Last Week?
  345. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you ran the HTML5 parser on Google's index to see if quirks-mode pages would break if <p><table> always closed the paragraph?
  346. # [13:33] <Dashiva> Lachy: Yes
  347. # [13:36] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-118.dynamic.amis.net)
  348. # [13:38] <Lachy> Dashiva, just ignore MLW. He's just an anonymous coward and a troll.
  349. # [13:38] <Philip`> Be careful - insults will only make him stronger
  350. # [13:39] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-32-34.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  351. # [13:39] <hsivonen> does anyone else have data on whether it's feasible to adopt the standards mode behavior for <p><table> in the quirks mode, too?
  352. # [13:39] <Lachy> hsivonen, what sort of data would be useful?
  353. # [13:40] <gsnedders> WTF? This is weird, yet seemingly per-spec.
  354. # [13:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: a Web crawl showing that the case doesn't occur on the Web or doesn't occur on the CSS-enabled Web
  355. # [13:40] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@86.92.118.197)
  356. # [13:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: or data about Opera having tried dropping the quirk and having gotten bug reports forcing a revert
  357. # [13:41] <Lachy> it could theoretically affect both rendering and scripting if scripts or styles depend on the table being within the p
  358. # [13:41] <hsivonen> true
  359. # [13:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: What?
  360. # [13:42] <hsivonen> it would be sad if the single parsing quirk in HTML5 ended up being Hixie's own making (through Acid2)
  361. # [13:42] <Lachy> I don't think we've tried dropping the quirk before
  362. # [13:42] <Lachy> what did acid2 require?
  363. # [13:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%20style%3D%22display%3Arun-in%22%3E%3Cspan%3Efoo%3C%2Fspan%3E%2C%20%3Cspan%3Ebar%0A%3Cp%3Efoo
  364. # [13:42] <zcorpan> that <p><table> close the p
  365. # [13:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: Acid2 requires <p><table> to parse like <p></p><table>
  366. # [13:43] <Lachy> oh, good
  367. # [13:43] <hsivonen> good???
  368. # [13:44] <Lachy> yes, having the table close the p is always how it's worked in good browsers in standards mode, and was what was requried by html4
  369. # [13:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: btw, have you found pages breaking because of <ul><li><ul></li>?
  370. # [13:44] <hsivonen> "what was required by html4" is a weak argument
  371. # [13:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I haven't
  372. # [13:45] <zcorpan> might be worth to research that markup pattern since ie7 and all other browsers except ie8 and html5-enabled gecko don't close the inner ul
  373. # [13:46] <Lachy> true. but it makes the most sense cause it allows the </p> to remain optional even when followed by a table
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  383. # [14:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: If there was a version of the HTML parser library that reported occurrences of that quirk, I could run it on my collection of pages
  384. # [14:34] <Philip`> though that wouldn't be too useful if it's less common than ~0.01%
  385. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: what kind of reporting mechanism do you need?
  386. # [14:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: The easiest would probably be something that prints to stdout in a thread-safe way
  387. # [14:37] <annevk42> I doubt that's the only quirk you'll need though it would be nice. Reparsing is another issue :/
  388. # [14:37] <Philip`> Actually I suppose that wouldn't quite work since I'd need to print the URI too
  389. # [14:38] <hsivonen> annevk42: is reparsing so important that it trumps security?
  390. # [14:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: would a warning with an easily detectable string work?
  391. # [14:38] <annevk42> hsivonen, ideally it's not, but the security concerns are rather weak
  392. # [14:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: So I would just use setErrorHandler? That sounds easy enough
  393. # [14:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  394. # [14:42] <Philip`> (Does it matter if I use DOM or SAX?)
  395. # [14:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: no
  396. # [14:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: svn head now does warn("A \u201Ctable\u201D start tag caused a paragraph to close implicitly."); when a table closes a para
  397. # [14:50] <Philip`> hsivonen: Is there a chance you could convert it into a .jar file? :-)
  398. # [14:50] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-42-13.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  399. # [14:50] * Philip` doesn't have a version checked out from SVN
  400. # [14:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  401. # [14:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/htmlparser-philip-2009-04-01.jar
  402. # [14:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: Thanks!
  403. # [14:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hmm, I get lots of org.w3c.dom.DOMException: INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR: An invalid or illegal XML character is specified.
  404. # [14:55] <Philip`> (which I didn't get using 1.0.7)
  405. # [14:55] <Philip`> when I'm using HtmlDocumentBuilder(XmlViolationPolicy.ALTER_INFOSET)
  406. # [14:56] <Philip`> By "lots" I mean "one", plus many NAMESPACE_ERR: An attempt is made to create or change an object in a way which is incorrect with regard to namespaces.
  407. # [14:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: hmm. I don't know what I've broken. Do you have a URL that triggers those?
  408. # [14:59] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-2f848cae2f91060c) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  409. # [14:59] <Philip`> http://www.giftology.co.uk gives the NAMESPACE_ERR
  410. # [14:59] <Philip`> http://www.villatraining.ca/ gives the INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR
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  412. # [15:01] <hsivonen> netquotevar:=""
  413. # [15:03] <Philip`> It also gives NAMESPACE_ERR on e.g. http://www.autobanga.lt/ which doesn't seem to use anything interesting except xml:lang
  414. # [15:04] <Philip`> (unless the code changed in the past few months)
  415. # [15:04] <hsivonen> seems like something is badly wrong in the XML sanity code
  416. # [15:05] <Philip`> I hope it's not my fault
  417. # [15:06] <Philip`> Whoops, there's more messages sent to ErrorHandler than I expected
  418. # [15:06] <Philip`> My output file is 3,483,189,354 bytes
  419. # [15:07] <Philip`> I see 8161 URLs (out of ~130K) that trigger the table-closed-p warning
  420. # [15:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. that seems bad on the face of it
  421. # [15:09] * Philip` wonders if there's any value in uploading the list
  422. # [15:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think there would be. one could pick sites at random and view them with two parsers
  423. # [15:10] <gsnedders> Anyone from Opera aroud?
  424. # [15:10] <gsnedders> *around
  425. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: do I count?
  426. # [15:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/data/table-implicitly-closed-p.txt
  427. # [15:12] <annevk42> no
  428. # [15:12] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Probably enough
  429. # [15:12] <gsnedders> Opera wants a transcript of grades, which implies something formal and official. I don't have any digital transcript.
  430. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I'm still part of the conspiracy, according to some people at least
  431. # [15:13] <gsnedders> Or am I half asleep?
  432. # [15:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks!
  433. # [15:14] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  434. # [15:15] <zcorpan> gsnedders: i just sent an email when i applied at opera
  435. # [15:16] <Philip`> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/893uo/html5_removes_tag_soup_support_goes_xml_only/ - apparently the commenters like the non-XML syntax
  436. # [15:16] <gsnedders> zcorpan: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/211/ does say to apply online, though
  437. # [15:16] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-a6012bd08f1c7522)
  438. # [15:16] <zcorpan> gsnedders: so?
  439. # [15:16] <gsnedders> zcorpan: That is not email :P
  440. # [15:17] <zcorpan> doesn't mean email is rejected
  441. # [15:17] <zcorpan> i'm not saying you should send an email, though
  442. # [15:17] <gsnedders> :P
  443. # [15:18] <annevk42> waha, http://philip.html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2942&to=2943 is funny
  444. # [15:18] <annevk42> did someone announce that on blog.whatwg.org ?
  445. # [15:18] <annevk42> especially if you follow the diff all the way to the end, lol
  446. # [15:18] <gsnedders> dt? dimitri?
  447. # [15:18] <gsnedders> Yeah, right
  448. # [15:18] <Philip`> http://twitter.com/WHATWG/status/1427965755
  449. # [15:19] <Philip`> Clearly not enough people here read the WHATWG Twitter feed
  450. # [15:19] <annevk42> ah sweet
  451. # [15:19] <gsnedders> I guess the entire digg-like style of reddit is April st too?
  452. # [15:19] <gsnedders> *1st
  453. # [15:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: If you can't get a trasnscript at the moment you should apply first and worry later
  454. # [15:22] <gsnedders> http://digg.com/programming/Tag_Soup_Support_Removed_From_HTML5
  455. # [15:24] <Philip`> It seems much more pointless when it's not blending into the Twitter stream and hiding behind tinyurl
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  457. # [15:27] * Joins: robinduckett (n=User@88-96-95-134.dsl.zen.co.uk)
  458. # [15:27] <robinduckett> yo
  459. # [15:28] <Philip`> Hello
  460. # [15:29] <robinduckett> anyone know if the ie8 beta devs have a channel kicking about?
  461. # [15:29] <jgraham> I think kicking the ie8 devs, even over irc, is harsh
  462. # [15:29] <robinduckett> hmmm
  463. # [15:29] <robinduckett> Really? 8)
  464. # [15:29] <jgraham> Although maybe they deserve it for the way they parse <p><object><p>
  465. # [15:30] <gsnedders> But what Travis said was that they were considering fixing that within IE8
  466. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> robinduckett: the IE8 devs are kept in a hermetically sealed environment
  467. # [15:30] <gsnedders> (implied they were
  468. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> they're not allowed to be exposed directly to open standards
  469. # [15:30] <robinduckett> hahah
  470. # [15:30] <Philip`> robinduckett: I don't think they do IRC; the closest thing is the occasional chats like http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/24/ie-team-chat-wednesday-firestarter-event-thursday.aspx
  471. # [15:31] <robinduckett> lol msdn, haven't been there since I was 11/12 doing VB6
  472. # [15:31] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279309917.dsl.bell.ca)
  473. # [15:31] <gsnedders> Well, there are normally a few around on irc.w3.org
  474. # [15:34] <Philip`> robinduckett: It's not MSDN, it's just a domain which happens to be hosted on msdn.com perhaps for the reason mentioned in http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/03/05/9459157.aspx#9460253
  475. # [15:34] <robinduckett> lol
  476. # [15:34] <robinduckett> okay
  477. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> robinduckett: did you have something in particular you wanted to ask them about?
  478. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> because they will tell you everything if you just ask them
  479. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> all their product plans, that kind of stuff
  480. # [15:35] * Philip` sees http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/30/compatibility-view-list-and-ie8-rtw.aspx , with links to a spreadsheet of the list, and a claim that "The Compatibility View List is updated on a regular cadence (in a period mirroring IE security updates, approximately every 2 months)"
  481. # [15:35] <robinduckett> just a very strange bug i've been getting on IE8, but it's really intermittant, so i'm going to grab the latest release and see if it still happens
  482. # [15:36] <gsnedders> Even the internals to the brokenness of object in IE < 8
  483. # [15:36] <robinduckett> lol
  484. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> robinduckett: what's the bug?
  485. # [15:37] <robinduckett> sometimes, clicking a select element to get the drop down, causes the pop up blocker to show up and the drop down to dissapear, and once it does that once it wont work again until the browser is restarted, and then sometimes it will either work for the rest of the day or not at all
  486. # [15:37] <robinduckett> I thought it was a bug in my code, I was doing a car make/model drop down in a form
  487. # [15:37] <robinduckett> and it had a lot of elements, so i thought it was related, but it does it on a two option select box now
  488. # [15:38] <robinduckett> sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't
  489. # [15:38] <robinduckett> very confusing
  490. # [15:38] <robinduckett> so i'll try the latest just incase i'm using some kind of old version
  491. # [15:38] * gsnedders has bitchin' cold
  492. # [15:38] <gsnedders> http://secret.gsnedders.com/cv.html — comments?
  493. # [15:39] <gsnedders> (Yes, I do have secret as a subdomain)
  494. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I think "Author of a number of automatable test cases for parts of the specification." is worthy of more prominence
  495. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> but not sure how to suggest doing that
  496. # [15:43] <gsnedders> <em>!
  497. # [15:43] <zcorpan> gsnedders: although it probably doesn't matter, i think there's a subtle difference between "Public invited expert" and "Invited Expert"
  498. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> if you want to get attention from opera, maybe putting "Can write good test cases all day long." under Skills would be good
  499. # [15:44] * gsnedders just went for what it formally is called in the W3C process
  500. # [15:44] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Suggest <font color=red>
  501. # [15:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: But I'm not using a WYSIWYG editor!
  502. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> CSS fire shadow thing
  503. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> however that's done
  504. # [15:47] <zcorpan> gsnedders: also list any test suites you have written
  505. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: have you written any test harness (as opposed to just test cases?)
  506. # [15:48] <Philip`> gsnedders: Have you found (and written tests for and reported and got fixed) any bugs in browsers?
  507. # [15:48] <zcorpan> gsnedders: omg it doesn't validate
  508. # [15:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also, go to a school that is not named after a curry
  509. # [15:49] <zcorpan> wait why does v.nu say h1 is interactive?
  510. # [15:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ^
  511. # [15:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: must be copypaste somewhere
  512. # [15:50] <zcorpan> Content model: Flow content, but with no heading content descendants, no sectioning content descendants, no footer element descendants, and no address element descendants.
  513. # [15:51] <gsnedders> Why does it disallow header content?
  514. # [15:51] <gsnedders> And why is there some insect buzzing around in here?
  515. # [15:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: ^^
  516. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: v.nu say h1 is interactive because of a dumb mistake I made
  517. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> sorry
  518. # [15:52] * gsnedders slaps MikeSmith
  519. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> it's fixed now
  520. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> in the source
  521. # [15:52] <zcorpan> gsnedders: maybe because it doesn't make sense to have sections in <address>?
  522. # [15:53] * jgraham gets scared by this kind of content-model wrangling
  523. # [15:53] <gsnedders> zcorpan: But it isn't a section within address, per the outlining algorithm
  524. # [15:53] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsecret.gsnedders.com%2Fcv.html
  525. # [15:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Anolis has tests, right? And SimplePie?
  526. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Yeah
  527. # [15:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: You might want to mention that
  528. # [15:55] <jgraham> (Also remove the borders from you tables)
  529. # [15:55] <zcorpan> yes; i think your chances would be better if you removed everything and just pointed to all tests you've written :)
  530. # [15:55] <zcorpan> though i'm not suggesting you remove anything
  531. # [15:56] <jgraham> So you're trying to decrease his chances?
  532. # [15:56] <zcorpan> no
  533. # [15:57] <Philip`> everything < tests < everything+tests
  534. # [15:57] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-14-211.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  535. # [15:57] <Philip`> hence it's better to not remove everything, but to still add tests
  536. # [15:57] <jgraham> gsnedders: In particular if there is anything notable about the testing strategy that you adopted for those projects it would be good to incluse
  537. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Basically, I learnt a lot about what not to do from SimplePie :)
  538. # [15:58] <jgraham> At least, I ould think it was good, although my opinion is irrelevant
  539. # [15:58] <Philip`> If there isn't, you've got a good half a day to invent and implement a testing strategy so you've got something to write about
  540. # [15:58] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Why would you say that?
  541. # [15:58] <zcorpan> gsnedders: say what?
  542. # [15:59] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Remove everything and link to tests
  543. # [15:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: He didn't
  544. # [15:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: He typed it, though, and then didn't suggest it
  545. # [15:59] <zcorpan> gsnedders: i just mean that experience with test cases is more important than the other stuff
  546. # [16:00] <jgraham> It certianly seems plausible that is is more importat then standard grade classical studies
  547. # [16:00] <jgraham> Although only getting a 2 in Latin is pretty inexcusable ;)
  548. # [16:01] <gsnedders> :P
  549. # [16:01] <Dashiva> Latin was fun
  550. # [16:01] <zcorpan> http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/09/ten-tips-for-slightly-less-awful-resume.html
  551. # [16:02] <Lachy> LOL, check out what YouTube have done to the videos today :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExkUOOXkGtg&flip=1
  552. # [16:03] <gsnedders> Oh fun
  553. # [16:04] * jgraham notes that US-style resumes seem to be a much more elaborate affair than european CVs
  554. # [16:08] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  555. # [16:10] <Lachy> jgraham, what's the difference between them?
  556. # [16:11] <annevk42> how did they flip the text?
  557. # [16:12] <Lachy> sıɥʇ ǝʞıן ʇsnɾ
  558. # [16:12] <jgraham> Lachy: Not sure, but all the sites to do with US resume writing talk about putting in your personal vision and all this stuff (although SY talks about taking it yout, which is good).
  559. # [16:12] <Philip`> http://s.ytimg.com/yt/js/april_fools-vfl84826.js
  560. # [16:12] <gsnedders> annevk42: There are Unicode codepoints for them
  561. # [16:12] <jgraham> Whereas that doesn't seem to be expected here so much
  562. # [16:12] <Philip`> It's just a translation table into glyphs that look similar
  563. # [16:13] * annevk42 just found that file
  564. # [16:15] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-107.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  565. # [16:16] * Philip` sees gsnedders engaging in shameless self-promotion by posting his CV to public-html
  566. # [16:18] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9859.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  567. # [16:19] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  568. # [16:20] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  569. # [16:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: I didn't mean that. I just wanted to show a real use-case!
  570. # [16:23] <Philip`> Oh, sure
  571. # [16:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: But tables without borders are ugly!
  572. # [16:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: Stop providing useful feedback and write your CV
  573. # [16:23] * Joins: cying (n=cying@75.41.121.135)
  574. # [16:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: You are wwrong
  575. # [16:23] <jgraham> :)
  576. # [16:23] <takkaria> don't write your CV, watch BBC News 24 instead, it's far more entertaining
  577. # [16:24] <gsnedders> What do they have on at the moment?
  578. # [16:25] <jgraham> gsnedders: The News
  579. # [16:25] <takkaria> just reporters saying things like "the protesters are calling it financial fool's day, which is a pun or play on wards on 'april fool's day'" and "protesters have been using internet websites to organise"
  580. # [16:26] <gsnedders> Not organize?
  581. # [16:27] <gsnedders> :P
  582. # [16:28] <takkaria> they have some fun protests being covered too
  583. # [16:28] * gsnedders hates writing this CV
  584. # [16:29] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-a6012bd08f1c7522) (Remote closed the connection)
  585. # [16:29] * Joins: billmason1 (n=bmason@69.30.57.90)
  586. # [16:30] * Quits: billmason1 (n=bmason@69.30.57.90) (Client Quit)
  587. # [16:31] <annevk42> I'm not sure how this case-insensitive is supposed to work for CSS
  588. # [16:32] <zcorpan> should createElement use a list too and use the right namespace based on tag name?
  589. # [16:32] <annevk42> that would only work half the time
  590. # [16:33] * Joins: billmason1 (n=bmason@69.30.57.90)
  591. # [16:33] <annevk42> e.g. "a", "audio", "video"
  592. # [16:34] <jgraham> what case-insensitive?
  593. # [16:34] <jgraham> Oh, hsivonen's email?
  594. # [16:34] <annevk42> I suppose some CSS bits become case-insensitive when the style sheet is referenced from an HTML document.
  595. # [16:35] <hsivonen> annevk42: the CSS parser knows whether an ident is in the role of an element selector or in the role of an attribute selector
  596. # [16:35] <hsivonen> right?
  597. # [16:35] <Lachy> this is interesting. http://www.addfullsize.com/ I'm not sure it's something that could or would be supported by browsers though.
  598. # [16:35] <jgraham> Lachy: I thought that was strange and crazy
  599. # [16:36] <hsivonen> annevk42: so when the CSS parser has lower-cased such an indent, it would check if the resulting ident is in a lower-to-camel mapping
  600. # [16:36] <jgraham> A whole website dedicated to advocating an attribute?
  601. # [16:36] <jgraham> I double checked for 1st-April related effects
  602. # [16:36] <hsivonen> why hasn't the site admin emailed public-html?
  603. # [16:36] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081027#l-302
  604. # [16:36] <annevk42> hsivonen, and the matcing would be on localName alone?
  605. # [16:36] <Lachy> yeah, the fact that he made a whole website for it instead of mailing the list is crazy
  606. # [16:37] <Philip`> It's months old
  607. # [16:37] <hsivonen> annevk42: right. isn't it already?
  608. # [16:37] <annevk42> hsivonen, e.g. foreignObject in some weird namespace would still be matched by foreignobject { ... } when used in CSS referenced from HTML?
  609. # [16:37] <takkaria> it has been argued about on the whatwg list already, I'm pretty sure
  610. # [16:37] <hsivonen> annevk42: right
  611. # [16:37] * Parts: billmason1 (n=bmason@69.30.57.90)
  612. # [16:37] <hsivonen> annevk42: which is why textArea can't be on the list
  613. # [16:37] <annevk42> hsivonen, I'm not sure how Selectors case-insensitivity works to be honest :)
  614. # [16:38] <hsivonen> annevk42: I asked bz to be sure :-)
  615. # [16:38] <zcorpan> i thought selectors matched case-insensitively
  616. # [16:39] <annevk42> zcorpan, impl or theory?
  617. # [16:39] <zcorpan> both
  618. # [16:39] * takkaria suggests making XML case-insensitive
  619. # [16:39] <zcorpan> takkaria: how about optionally case-insensitive?
  620. # [16:40] <zcorpan> oh wait
  621. # [16:40] <annevk42> zcorpan, e.g. if you createElementNS("x", "TEst") in HTML CSS matches that with "test" in Gecko, WebKit and Presto?
  622. # [16:40] <zcorpan> annevk42: yeah, that's what i had thought, but obviously i was wrong and i hadn't tested
  623. # [16:40] <annevk42> hsivonen, ok, it seems somewhat suboptimal but it is more performant than doing it while matching
  624. # [16:42] <Philip`> http://www.addfullsize.com/ - "Since there is no fullsize attribute for the <IMG> tag yet, I am using the longdesc attribute instead." - hmm
  625. # [16:42] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/50
  626. # [16:43] <jgraham> Philip`: And that is why markup will always "suck"
  627. # [16:43] <annevk42> zcorpan, Opera is cool
  628. # [16:43] <zcorpan> so opera matches case-insensitively and webkit and gecko lowercase
  629. # [16:45] <annevk42> so how does this work for HTML attribute values that are case-insensitive?
  630. # [16:45] <zcorpan> attribute values will have to match case-insensitively rather than lowercasing
  631. # [16:45] <zcorpan> since they preserve the case in the dom
  632. # [16:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: attribute values are very different from names in Gecko
  633. # [16:46] <annevk42> and do they match case-insensitively regardless of what element they are on?
  634. # [16:46] <annevk42> I'm guessing they do
  635. # [16:46] <zcorpan> annevk42: in opera, only html elements, iirc
  636. # [16:46] <hsivonen> annevk42: IIRC, only on HTML elements in Gecko, but I'd have to check
  637. # [16:47] <hsivonen> (though this whole area is bad for "IIRC")
  638. # [16:47] <annevk42> "HTML elements" being a set?
  639. # [16:47] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0043.html
  640. # [16:47] <hsivonen> annevk42: HTML elements being elements that have their HTMLness bit set
  641. # [16:48] <hsivonen> annevk42: I *think* the bit is consistent with namespace
  642. # [16:48] <hsivonen> annevk42: also, I *think* only HTMLElement instances have the bit set
  643. # [16:48] <hsivonen> actually, it's not a bit that is "set" but a mask that classes respond to
  644. # [16:49] <hsivonen> anyway
  645. # [16:50] <annevk42> I guess it works well in practice and worse in the theoretical case of having two element scoped attributes with the same name but different value space rules :)
  646. # [16:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: does gecko now restrict the attribute value case-insensitivity to html elements?
  647. # [16:52] <annevk42> no
  648. # [16:52] <annevk42> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3Etest[align%3DteST]{border%3A1em%20solid}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Cscript%3Ex%3Ddocument.createElementNS%28%22x%22%2C%20%22test%22%29%3Bx.setAttribute%28%22align%22%2C%22TEST%22%29%3Bdocument.body.appendChild%28x%29%3C%2Fscript%3E
  649. # [16:52] <annevk42> it does it regardless of the element as long as the attribute is in some list
  650. # [16:52] <hsivonen> clearly, my "IIRC" was wrong
  651. # [16:52] <annevk42> though maybe the situation is different in XHTML?
  652. # [16:53] <hsivonen> indeed, the list is in the CSS parser, not in the selector matching code
  653. # [16:53] <annevk42> (Opera doesn't match for that case by the way...)
  654. # [16:53] <hsivonen> FWIW, the list is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/nsCSSParser.cpp#2916
  655. # [16:53] <zcorpan> annevk42: last i checked gecko didn't do any case-insensitive matching of attribute values in xhtml
  656. # [16:54] <annevk42> making Selectors case-insensitive for attribute values was a stupid mistake
  657. # [16:54] <hsivonen> annevk42: I think that applies more broadly :-)
  658. # [16:55] <hsivonen> (that case-insensitivity was a mistake)
  659. # [16:55] <annevk42> I sort of like we ended up with lowercase being the norm for HTML :)
  660. # [16:56] <annevk42> but yeah, it doesn't buy us much at all
  661. # [16:56] <hsivonen> uppercase being the norm without case-insensitivity would have sucked
  662. # [16:56] <zcorpan> clearly my reverse-engineering skills were not enough to catch all attributes :(
  663. # [16:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ismap should be in that list
  664. # [16:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  665. # [17:01] <annevk42> are we going to extend the list?
  666. # [17:01] <annevk42> hmm
  667. # [17:01] <hsivonen> I thought HTML5 was going to
  668. # [17:01] <robinduckett> anyone know of a commercial in-page wysiwyg editor?
  669. # [17:02] <jgraham> Does anyone know of a library (preferably usable from python) that will allow me to send window manager events to a particular application (in particular that will allow me to make the application fullscreen)?
  670. # [17:02] <jgraham> For linux obviously
  671. # [17:02] <annevk42> hsivonen, I was hoping we'd not enlarge magic lists
  672. # [17:03] <zcorpan> i was missing accept-charset, checked, direction and lang in my list
  673. # [17:03] <annevk42> there's also contenteditable, spellcheck, required, etc.
  674. # [17:03] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  675. # [17:03] <zcorpan> yes...
  676. # [17:04] * zcorpan mails the list
  677. # [17:04] <annevk42> I rather have the list fixed for eternity
  678. # [17:05] <zcorpan> why?
  679. # [17:05] <hsivonen> annevk42: like the list of elements that implies <p> close? like <footer>?
  680. # [17:05] <zcorpan> and <table>? :)
  681. # [17:05] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  682. # [17:06] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  683. # [17:06] <annevk42> hsivonen, that's actually a useful feature
  684. # [17:08] <annevk42> this case-insensitive attribute value checking only costs
  685. # [17:11] <zcorpan> annevk42: i think browserse are only doing it for compliance with css21 and html4
  686. # [17:11] <zcorpan> annevk42: ie gets away with doing case-sensitive matching
  687. # [17:11] <zcorpan> maybe we should change css21
  688. # [17:11] <annevk42> IE doesn't do it?
  689. # [17:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: IE8 even?
  690. # [17:11] <annevk42> cool
  691. # [17:11] <annevk42> lets kill it
  692. # [17:11] <zcorpan> haven't tested ie8
  693. # [17:12] <zcorpan> snap, they changed it
  694. # [17:13] <hsivonen> sigh. like <p><table>
  695. # [17:13] <annevk42> should still be doable if everyone is willing
  696. # [17:13] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@213.236.208.22) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  697. # [17:13] <annevk42> it's pretty isolated piece of code in most impl I assume
  698. # [17:13] * zcorpan leaves the convincing work to annevk42
  699. # [17:14] <annevk42> mwaha
  700. # [17:16] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  701. # [17:16] <annevk42> where is this even defined in CSS?
  702. # [17:16] <annevk42> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html only talks about element names
  703. # [17:18] <zcorpan> "The case-sensitivity of attribute names and values in selectors depends on the document language." -- http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#matching-attrs
  704. # [17:18] <annevk42> meh
  705. # [17:19] <annevk42> for elements it spells it out but here it doesn't
  706. # [17:19] <annevk42> implementations are arguably wrong too
  707. # [17:19] <annevk42> there's nothing in HTML4 that says align on <x> is case-insensitive
  708. # [17:20] <annevk42> (the value of align)
  709. # [17:20] <zcorpan> right
  710. # [17:20] <zcorpan> but that's invalid and html4 leaves handling of invalid documents undefined :)
  711. # [17:20] <zcorpan> so it's not wrong
  712. # [17:22] <hsivonen> I wonder how much lawyer time MS used to develop the TOS for their compat view spreadsheet
  713. # [17:22] <annevk42> so should I take on this fight with www-style?
  714. # [17:23] <annevk42> note also that a literal reading of CSS 2.1 does not allow createElementNS("x","TEst") not to be matched by "test"
  715. # [17:24] <hsivonen> Interesting. Y! has requested their domains be removed from the IE8 blacklist
  716. # [17:24] <annevk42> the other thing is that the only person who would care enough to reply would be Bert Bos prolly claiming that a) the DOM is irrelevant and b) that it's not valid HTML
  717. # [17:24] <hsivonen> annevk42: CSS delegates the decision to HTML :-)
  718. # [17:25] <hsivonen> (but yeah, www-style would be the right list, still)
  719. # [17:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: Also interesting that only about 9 other domains have requested removal, out of over 3000
  720. # [17:30] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  721. # [17:30] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  722. # [17:30] <Philip`> Also interesting: When you sort data in OO Calc, and sort on non-unique fields, the ordering of equivalent rows seems to be random, rather than doing something sane like a stable sort
  723. # [17:31] <Dashiva> Go quicksort
  724. # [17:33] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  725. # [17:36] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  726. # [17:37] <annevk42> e-mailed
  727. # [17:38] <annevk42> hsivonen, if you can prepare a fix for Gecko I and zcorpan can prolly sort it out for Opera...
  728. # [17:38] <annevk42> it would make HTML and XHTML more consistent as well
  729. # [17:39] <annevk42> i should've mentioned that in my e-mail
  730. # [17:42] <zcorpan> annevk42: i've advocated attribute values be case-insensitive in xhtml
  731. # [17:43] <zcorpan> since they are defined to be in xhtml5
  732. # [17:43] <zcorpan> annevk42: you need to get the css3.info selectors testsuite changed, too
  733. # [17:44] * Quits: atw (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  734. # [17:45] <zcorpan> yeah html5 could say that no attribute values are case-insensitive as far as selectors are concerned without changing css
  735. # [17:47] <zcorpan> annevk42: ie6 doesn't support attribute selectors :)
  736. # [17:49] <annevk42> zcorpan, the way this is implemented now would mean that all align attributes would have their values case-insensitively matched in XHTML...
  737. # [17:49] <annevk42> zcorpan, in XML even, that seems highly suboptimal
  738. # [17:50] <annevk42> zcorpan, yeah, that test suite would need a fix
  739. # [17:50] <zcorpan> annevk42: opera checks html namespace
  740. # [17:50] <zcorpan> annevk42: my proposal was to align with opera
  741. # [17:50] <annevk42> zcorpan, make this mess even more complicated? :)
  742. # [17:51] <zcorpan> basically, though we have already implemented the check
  743. # [17:51] <zcorpan> but i don't mind removing it altogether
  744. # [17:52] <Philip`> http://test.foaf-ssl.net/cert/make?Select=That%27s+ME&webid=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.advogato.org%2Fperson%2Fconnolly%2Ffoaf.rdf%23me
  745. # [17:53] <Philip`> They use <keygen>
  746. # [17:56] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/message/%3CC3CC87D2-2781-4F23-953B-FBD48639E556%40bblfish.net%3E - oh, someone pointed it out already
  747. # [17:57] <Philip`> (Well, not quite that exact implementation)
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  751. # [18:05] <mpt> I'm surprised and disappointed that http://saveie6.com/ hasn't been mentioned here yet
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  757. # [18:14] <robinduckett> mpt: ooh a new site to ddos
  758. # [18:20] * Quits: svl_ (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  765. # [18:47] * gsnedders stretches
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  771. # [18:58] <gsnedders> Anyone still around?
  772. # [18:58] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  773. # [18:58] <Philip`> No
  774. # [18:59] <gsnedders> Oh well
  775. # [18:59] <gsnedders> Tragic
  776. # [19:01] <robinduckett> fscking
  777. # [19:01] <robinduckett> IE8
  778. # [19:01] <robinduckett> sucks.
  779. # [19:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Everyone's dead
  780. # [19:02] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  781. # [19:02] <Philip`> robinduckett: For any specific reasons?
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  785. # [19:04] <gsnedders> "Mama, just killed a man, Put a gun against his head/Pulled my trigger, now he's dead/Mama, life had just begun/But now I've gone and thrown it all away"
  786. # [19:06] <gsnedders> Does <http://secret.gsnedders.com/cv.html> seem better yet?
  787. # [19:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: The table still has borders :)
  788. # [19:08] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@pD9578EED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009030221 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090315065407]")
  789. # [19:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: Have to go but generally looks OK
  790. # [19:08] * gsnedders remembers to upload his changes
  791. # [19:08] <gsnedders> Now it doesn't!
  792. # [19:08] * Philip` can quote random lyrics too
  793. # [19:08] <Philip`> "War, it's never been so much fun/War, it's never been so much fun/Go to your brother/Kill him with your gun/Leave him lying in his uniform/Dying in the sun!/War, it's never been so much fun/War, it's never been so much fun"
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  795. # [19:14] * gsnedders has his hair get in his way again, and remembers why he has for the past months always had it tied back
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  805. # [19:40] <tantek> gsnedders, I took a brief look at your cv.html - well done with using hResume
  806. # [19:40] <tantek> perhaps consider adding it to http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-examples-in-wild
  807. # [19:43] <annevk42> http://wrongtomorrow.com/ is great
  808. # [19:45] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  809. # [19:45] <annevk42> "Research has shown that experts make predictions at a rate worse than chance. This site exists in order to hold people and media outlets accountable for pretending to see into an unpredictable future."
  810. # [19:47] <benh> awesome
  811. # [19:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: long term, once aria is mature, what should html5 say? is it going to be the place that needs to define which cases are conflicts?
  812. # [19:58] <annevk42> Hixie, I guess it needs to define what is conforming
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  815. # [20:03] <gsnedders> Hixie: You got any thoughts on address and headings, per my email?
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  818. # [20:10] <Hixie> gsnedders: i haven't even read e-mail yet
  819. # [20:11] <Hixie> annevk42: any idea what it should say? i don't fancy going through the whole 80+ pages of the aria spec trying to work out what the right thing to say is...
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  823. # [20:18] <annevk42> no sorry
  824. # [20:18] <annevk42> I think hsivonen has an idea, but we probably have to wait for the specifics of the implementation guidelines for HTML etc.
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  826. # [20:26] <benh> Hixie: listing mutually incompatible roles and elements or attributes and elements might be an approach.
  827. # [20:26] <benh> e.g. input type="checkbox" role="button"
  828. # [20:27] <annevk42> type=checkbox role=checkbox also seems like an error to me
  829. # [20:27] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@89.48.152.89)
  830. # [20:28] <benh> annevk42: In that particular case, yes. In other similar cases, perhaps not.
  831. # [20:28] <benh> e.g. nav role="navigation" is probably not an author error.
  832. # [20:28] <annevk42> I'd say it is
  833. # [20:29] <benh> if ARIA roles and new elements are not always implemented side-by-side then authors are going to compensate by doubling them up
  834. # [20:29] <benh> so it's not helpful to authors to flag that as an error.
  835. # [20:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'd kinda like to know whether my invalid CV will become conforming before submitting it :)
  836. # [20:29] <benh> (maybe a warning?)
  837. # [20:30] <annevk42> it's not clear that ARIA roles and HTML5 elements mean identical things to screen readers so doubling them up should prolly be discouraged
  838. # [20:30] <annevk42> but it's all a bit sketchy
  839. # [20:31] <benh> I'm pretty sure I'd use role="navigation" on nav.
  840. # [20:31] <benh> I think a warning when the semantics partially overlap might be useful.
  841. # [20:31] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.224.1)
  842. # [20:31] <benh> but that's a human judgement call type thing
  843. # [20:31] <benh> not a valid/invalid boolean
  844. # [20:31] <ojan> sorry about the webkit failures
  845. # [20:32] <annevk42> ojan, wrong channel?
  846. # [20:32] <ojan> heh...oops
  847. # [20:32] <ojan> sorry
  848. # [20:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: Just put a comment in your markup pointing to your email :-)
  849. # [20:33] <Philip`> Then it won't matter if it fails the validator because you've got an excuse, and also you've got a practical demonstration of your ability to contribute to standards-related activities
  850. # [20:36] <annevk42> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/ has a start on impl mapping btw
  851. # [20:37] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.224.1)
  852. # [20:39] <annevk42> so one of the comments I should make is that they cannot use the Nmtokens production to define whitespace separated because HTML and the DOM do not have whitespace normalization like XML
  853. # [20:39] * benh wonders how current ARIA implementations handle input type="checkbox" role="button"
  854. # [20:39] <annevk42> (comments on ARIA)
  855. # [20:41] <annevk42> 7.2 is redundant with the DOM spec
  856. # [20:43] <annevk42> 7.3 has a confusing requirement about AT modifying the DOM and the Web application having to take those changes into account
  857. # [20:43] <annevk42> I thought it was supposed to work the other way around?
  858. # [20:43] <benh> 7.3? doesn't http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/ end with 7.2.3 ?
  859. # [20:44] <annevk42> I was asked to review http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/
  860. # [20:44] <benh> oh sorry
  861. # [20:45] <annevk42> I can see how it was confusing :)
  862. # [20:46] <annevk42> and it all kinds of RDF stuff in there, who's going to use that?
  863. # [20:49] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.52)
  864. # [20:49] <benh> If they define a JSON representation of same, RDF enthusiasts I guess.
  865. # [20:49] <annevk42> JSON?
  866. # [20:50] <benh> annevk42: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/JSON_ARIA
  867. # [20:50] <annevk42> and what's this crazy modelling about properties inheriting etc.
  868. # [20:50] <annevk42> geez, it's just a bunch of attributes to provide a low-level access api
  869. # [20:51] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  870. # [20:51] <annevk42> benh, oh yeah, I saw that before
  871. # [20:51] <benh> probably so you can specify complex structures to user agents in the same way as the spec specifies simpler ones.
  872. # [20:51] <annevk42> ARIA is already so complex and they're adding yet another layer of abstraction for the fun of it
  873. # [20:51] <benh> it's got a certain conceptual purity
  874. # [20:51] <annevk42> I'm sure that's going to work well
  875. # [20:52] <annevk42> IBM can prolly line up a few consultants a EUR 500 an hour that can implement it in your system harharhar
  876. # [20:53] <benh> an interesting question would be - can the implementation details of the specified complex structures be derived from the implementation details of the specified simple structures.
  877. # [20:53] <benh> if not, then the inheritance would seem to be window-dressing.
  878. # [20:53] <benh> well, for some value of "interesting"
  879. # [20:53] <annevk42> at that point you probably better have some turing-complete thing hooking in the AT but if a) ATs are happy with that and b) anyone is going to bother is another
  880. # [20:56] <benh> I can imagine using it to specify the name of a specialized widget in a page/app that people reuse.
  881. # [20:57] <benh> maybe
  882. # [20:57] <benh> the most immediate use seems to be building calendar roles.
  883. # [20:57] <annevk42> I'd rather we just fix the damn fomr control styling problem
  884. # [20:57] <annevk42> and get people to implement the new form controls
  885. # [20:58] <annevk42> having a somewhat low-level access api can still be useful, but what people are advocating it for are just hacks
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  888. # [20:59] <annevk42> the main reason they did ARIA was to work around that problem and lack of updates from Microsoft
  889. # [21:00] <annevk42> (i.e. if that problem was solved it still wouldn't work in IE)
  890. # [21:01] <benh> well, you'd still want stuff like live regions
  891. # [21:03] <annevk42> live regions is a gap in HTML
  892. # [21:03] <annevk42> indeed
  893. # [21:04] <annevk42> a lot of ARIA is just gaps in HTML4. the problem is that the solution they designed to this problem was only solving it for the AT case and not for everyone (per the above constraints)
  894. # [21:05] <annevk42> HTML5 is part of the everyone approach, but we still haven't dealt with styling (pretty back track record)
  895. # [21:05] <annevk42> s/back/bad/
  896. # [21:07] * benh doubts styling is going to be dealt with for years.
  897. # [21:08] <benh> enough to satisfy people using SVG/Canvas/images
  898. # [21:08] <benh> perhaps never.
  899. # [21:11] <annevk42> WebKit has a pretty decent appearance implementation
  900. # [21:12] <annevk42> you can turn of default form control rendering completely with that
  901. # [21:12] <annevk42> s/of/off/
  902. # [21:12] <annevk42> now if only it was defined a bit more clearly others could copy that
  903. # [21:13] <annevk42> we'd still need XBL for the more advanced controls of course
  904. # [21:13] <benh> indeed
  905. # [21:15] <annevk42> anyway, a solution to this problem doesn't seem that improbable
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  924. # [22:23] <annevk42> Hixie "character (') U+0022 QUOTATION MARK character (")" misses an "or an" before U+0022
  925. # [22:24] <annevk42> Hixie, "critiera"
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  928. # [22:28] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  929. # [22:33] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  930. # [22:43] <jgraham> Why does he aria implementation guide thing say that it is going to become a note. It seems like the most crucial part of the whole enterprise
  931. # [22:48] <jgraham> "
  932. # [22:48] <jgraham> For the core accessibility API properties of role, name, states, value, etc. there is typically only one of each of them. If there is a conflict, ARIA always wins, because ARIA is essentially an override. In other words, if the native markup says there a link, but the ARIA markup says it is a button, then it should be exposed as a button."
  933. # [22:48] <Hixie> annevk42: e-mail please :-)
  934. # [22:48] <Hixie> annevk42: or a bug
  935. # [22:51] * Parts: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  936. # [22:54] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  937. # [22:55] * Parts: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  938. # [23:06] * gsnedders doesn't know what to write in a covering letter
  939. # [23:06] * gsnedders sighs
  940. # [23:12] * Quits: adambeynon (n=adambeyn@78-105-247-59.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
  941. # [23:12] <annevk42> Hixie, haven't had a reply yet to the last one, but ok
  942. # [23:13] <Hixie> can you only send one e-mail at once? :-)
  943. # [23:13] <Hixie> i can't track IRC comments. if you comment on IRC, it'll be lost.
  944. # [23:14] * gsnedders thinks we need an IRC -> email bot
  945. # [23:14] <Hixie> be my guest :-)
  946. # [23:14] <gsnedders> I'm trying to apply for an internship whose deadline is April 1st!
  947. # [23:15] <Hixie> i don't necessarily mean right now :-)
  948. # [23:15] * gsnedders still doesn't know what to write in a covering letter
  949. # [23:15] <gsnedders> "Hi, I rule, hire me, kthxbai."
  950. # [23:15] <olliej> gsnedders: why wouldn't that work? :D
  951. # [23:16] * gsnedders just shakes head
  952. # [23:16] * gsnedders wonders how old olliej is anyway
  953. # [23:17] <Dashiva> Just write that you invented Forth
  954. # [23:19] <gsnedders> I live near the Forth, but I failed to invent it.
  955. # [23:19] <annevk42> just write you fancy the Web, browsers and Web standard games, have some experience with testing and would like to learn more
  956. # [23:20] * gsnedders copies that
  957. # [23:21] <gsnedders> "Send us your CV and cover letter and indicate the preferred dates for your internship.
  958. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Please specify technical skills, relevant experience and what type of technical challenges you look for."
  959. # [23:22] * Quits: Maurice (n=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  960. # [23:23] <annevk42> sounds about right; admittedly I never applied for a proper job nor do I have a CV
  961. # [23:23] <gsnedders> heh
  962. # [23:23] * gsnedders puts on some takkaria music
  963. # [23:25] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@pD9578EED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ("good night")
  964. # [23:26] <gsnedders> I guess I'll have to address the point of, "Enrollment in a 3-5 year university program, or completing such a program in 2009."
  965. # [23:33] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-14-211.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  966. # [23:38] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@65.210.82.235)
  967. # [23:47] <annevk42> gsnedders, why does your name need to be part of the address?
  968. # [23:47] <gsnedders> annevk42: Because that's what hCard says so, because that's what vCard says :P
  969. # [23:48] <gsnedders> s/so//
  970. # [23:48] <annevk42> it looks broken
  971. # [23:51] <gsnedders> How do you finish a covering letter?
  972. # Session Close: Thu Apr 02 00:00:00 2009

The end :)