/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 03 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> are there any exception objects on the Web other than DOMException? And is it ok to make up new ones?
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  10. # [00:12] <heycam> Hixie, there's an SVGException. don't see any reason not to make a new one.
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  12. # [00:14] <Hixie> ok
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  20. # [01:05] <Hixie> ok, the invitation for people to review the spec is Out There
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  22. # [01:11] <Lachy> Hixie, "Anyone who helps [...] will get their name in the acknowledgements section." - So what's in it for those of us who's name is already in there? I didn't see any other incentives, why should I bother ;-).
  23. # [01:11] <Lachy> (aside from the fact that I already get paid to do this as part of my job)
  24. # [01:12] <Hixie> so many possible replies
  25. # [01:12] <Hixie> i'm torn between "if your name is already in there, you already know the rush that comes from sending feedback, and so you don't need any other incentive" and "if your name is already in there, i don't want more of your damn e-mails". :-P
  26. # [01:15] <Niictar24> Wow, that thing is long
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  28. # [01:16] <Niictar24> 839 pages (!)
  29. # [01:16] <Hixie> the html5 spec? yeah
  30. # [01:18] * Lachy wonders how many people are going to try printing that
  31. # [01:18] <Hixie> everyone at microsoft, i expect
  32. # [01:18] <Hixie> other than that, i hope nobody!
  33. # [01:18] * Niictar24 was planning on it before he finished downloaded it
  34. # [01:18] <Niictar24> downloading*
  35. # [01:18] <Niictar24> Not so much now
  36. # [01:18] <Lachy> wow, the acknowledgement section takes up 2 pages on its own.
  37. # [01:19] <Hixie> and that's after extracting the websockets, eventsource, and webstorage sections, too
  38. # [01:19] <Niictar24> After this invite, that will probably get much bigger
  39. # [01:19] <Hixie> i'm going for the award for "most community involvement in a web specification's development"
  40. # [01:19] <Hixie> :-P
  41. # [01:20] <Lachy> I'm not so sure it will get too much bigger. The invite has so far only reached the limited number of people who are already following the spec development in some capacity.
  42. # [01:21] <Niictar24> I read somewhere there are over 800 subscribers
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  44. # [01:21] <Niictar24> If each one of them finds and reports a typo?
  45. # [01:21] <Niictar24> Subcsribers to the WHATWG mailing list, I mean
  46. # [01:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: people who submit more feedback should get their names in a bigger point size
  47. # [01:21] <MikeSmith> like tag clouds
  48. # [01:22] <Hixie> MikeSmith: hah
  49. # [01:22] <Hixie> Niictar24: 950 last i checked
  50. # [01:22] <Niictar24> And coloured, too!
  51. # [01:22] <Dashiva> What if you gave points per submission, and people could use those points to pimp their name in a custom way
  52. # [01:23] <Lachy> Hixie, it's really nice when you win one of those self-created and self-awarded awards. It'll make you feel really proud.
  53. # [01:23] <Hixie> help vote this up so we get more input :-) http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/89lgh/get_your_name_in_the_html5_acknowledgements_help/
  54. # [01:23] <Hixie> Dashiva: that'd be hilarious
  55. # [01:24] * weinig|lunch is now known as weinig
  56. # [01:24] <Niictar24> Hixie: When the PDF references page numbers, were those generated dynamically?
  57. # [01:24] <Hixie> yes
  58. # [01:24] <Niictar24> Ok
  59. # [01:30] <Lachy> I hope other ISPs in the US don't follow Time Warner's lead and start introducing ridiculously low bandwidth caps of 40GB/month
  60. # [01:30] * MikeSmith wants to read rsayre whatwg blog posting
  61. # [01:30] <Lachy> I thought I left that nonsense behind in Australia. Not looking forward to being stuck with that again when I move to the US
  62. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you moving to the US?
  63. # [01:31] <Lachy> yes
  64. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> where to?
  65. # [01:31] <Lachy> I'm transferring to the Mountain View office
  66. # [01:31] <Lachy> I thought I'd told everyone that already.
  67. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you didn't tell me. I feel left out
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  69. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> hmm, maybe annevk42 told me earlier
  70. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> Lachy: congrats on that
  71. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> great place in the world to work
  72. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> Tatsuki is great too
  73. # [01:33] <Lachy> where's Tatsuki?
  74. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> the head of the office there
  75. # [01:33] <Hixie> lachy will presumably become opera's rep to all the clandestine whatwg cabal meetings now
  76. # [01:33] * jcranmer has to keep track of too many cabals these days
  77. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> Lachy: or head of the consumer business at least
  78. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> he used to run the Japan office
  79. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> great guy, from Kyushu. crazy about outdoors, hiking and stuff
  80. # [01:34] <Lachy> MikeSmith, oh, I thought you meant Tatsuki was a place, not a person. That's a weird name.
  81. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> normal name in Japan
  82. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> I hear there's a few more people there now too
  83. # [01:35] <Lachy> sure, but Japan isn't a normal place. :-)
  84. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> Opera in Mountain View, I mean
  85. # [01:35] <Dashiva> uh-oh, incoming rathole
  86. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you should come to Japan for a working visit when you can
  87. # [01:35] <Lachy> I first need to make up some bogus reason for me to be there
  88. # [01:36] <Lachy> or a real reason, if there is one
  89. # [01:36] <Dashiva> If you find one, let me know
  90. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> a real reason is that you can learn about the part of the business that involves product dev for getting browsers preinstalled on millions of devices
  91. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> dev, testing, deployment for that
  92. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> customer requirements and functional-spec development for that
  93. # [01:40] <blooberry> for as close as I am, I hardly ever visit the Opera Mt.View office
  94. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> blooberry: did you and kaz ever meet up much?
  95. # [01:42] <MikeSmith> I guess he's moved elsewhere now
  96. # [01:42] <MikeSmith> blooberry: you are in Seattle area, right?
  97. # [01:42] <Hixie> man, abarth has the patience of a saint
  98. # [01:42] <Lachy> Hixie, is abarth still debating with Roy?
  99. # [01:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: indeed
  100. # [01:43] <blooberry> mikesmith: we meet up as often as we can, but he's moved out of the area. But I live in the SF bay area
  101. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> blooberry: ah, OK
  102. # [01:43] <Hixie> blooberry should move up to the peninsula
  103. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> Lachy: lots of fun recently on http list again
  104. # [01:43] <blooberry> MikeSmith: kaz is in Japan right now even
  105. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> blooberry: yeah, I ran into him last week
  106. # [01:44] <blooberry> way? cool. 8-}
  107. # [01:45] <blooberry> hope you don't have too many bruises. ;-}
  108. # [01:45] <MikeSmith> heh
  109. # [01:45] <Niictar24> Hixie: can IRC be used to point out possible corrections? Or should it be sent to your email address or to the WHATWG mailing list?
  110. # [01:46] <Hixie> Niictar24: any of the places mentioned on the blog post would be fine, IRC will lead to the comments being lost though
  111. # [01:46] <Hixie> Niictar24: unless you can get someone (you maybe!) to volunteer to track IRC comments and send them as e-mail each day!
  112. # [01:46] <Hixie> Niictar24: which would be awesome btw!
  113. # [01:47] <Hixie> Niictar24: especially since anne and zcorpan keep insisting on sending IRC comments and grumble when i ask them to send mail :-)
  114. # [01:47] <Niictar24> lol
  115. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> need bot
  116. # [01:47] <Niictar24> I thought you had all the time in the world to read the IRC chat logs
  117. # [01:48] <Hixie> i read them, but i don't do anything with them and usually i'm in the middle of edits when i see the comments
  118. # [01:48] <Hixie> so i can't deal with them straight away
  119. # [01:49] <Lachy> Hixie, it would be nice if there was an IRC bot that could help track IRC comments for you
  120. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> Niictar24: one way that some people use is to first discuss on IRC, then just copy-paste the IRC discussion into an e-mail message or new bugzilla issue
  121. # [01:50] <Niictar24> Fair enough
  122. # [01:51] <Niictar24> So anyway, the example on page 170 of the letter format PDF for the <nav> element could be cleaned up I think
  123. # [01:52] <Hixie> Lachy: that would be cool too
  124. # [01:52] <Hixie> Lachy: find a volunteer to run one :-)
  125. # [01:52] <jcranmer> well, I have some python code for a dynamically-reconfigurable bot
  126. # [01:53] <Niictar24> But its just clean up so I'll just email it away
  127. # [01:54] <Philip`> I'm guessing PDF page numbers aren't very useful, since they'll change after every edit
  128. # [01:55] <Philip`> Lachy: Write a script to scrape krijnh's logs once a day and look for specially-marked comments
  129. # [01:55] <Niictar24> Actually, yea
  130. # [01:55] <Niictar24> What's the best way to reference something?
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  132. # [01:56] <jcranmer> see!
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  134. # [01:56] <jcranmer> oh, right
  135. # [01:56] <Philip`> Niictar24: Maybe the section title and a quote
  136. # [01:56] <jcranmer> the quit message is broken
  137. # [01:56] <Hixie> Niictar24: copy and paste text from that area, along with the section title
  138. # [01:56] <Hixie> what Philip` said
  139. # [01:57] <Philip`> What Hixie said
  140. # [01:57] <Niictar24> Ha
  141. # [01:57] <Niictar24> Kay
  142. # [01:58] <Niictar24> On another sort of half-way-related note, the image/figure/bubble kind of thing under "3.4.1 Kinds of content" is just a black blob in Acrobat Reader 7
  143. # [01:59] * jcranmer wonders how acceptable python's XML/DOM stuff is with whatwg specification
  144. # [01:59] <Hixie> Niictar24: prince might not support SVG properly
  145. # [01:59] <Niictar24> Somehow I could imagine that one being likely
  146. # [01:59] * Niictar24 wishes SVG was fully supported everywhere
  147. # [02:00] <Niictar24> Which is silly, I know
  148. # [02:02] <Philip`> Even in Lynx?
  149. # [02:02] <jcranmer> duh
  150. # [02:02] <jcranmer> who doesn't want SVG in Lynx?
  151. # [02:03] <jcranmer> "Lynx... supporting SVG in a terminal before IE supported it!"
  152. # [02:04] <heycam> hmm does cairo have an aalib backend?
  153. # [02:06] <Niictar24> Sigh, I keep forgetting about that one
  154. # [02:06] <jcranmer> how hard could it be?
  155. # [02:07] <Niictar24> Someone should be creative and make it happen. Convert the SVG image to ASCII art. Simple!
  156. # [02:08] <Niictar24> Completely practical, too
  157. # [02:08] <jcranmer> apparently
  158. # [02:09] <jcranmer> someone was actually working on it
  159. # [02:09] <Niictar24> What? Really?
  160. # [02:10] <jcranmer> judging from the mailing lists, yes
  161. # [02:10] <MikeSmith> lynx is a pager, not a browser
  162. # [02:11] <Niictar24> "Pager"?
  163. # [02:12] <MikeSmith> Niictar24: like more(1) or less(1)
  164. # [02:17] <heycam> but you can press enter to follow a link, is that not browsing?
  165. # [02:17] <heycam> i like that w3m lets me click on links in my xterm
  166. # [02:26] <olliej> Hixie: i've been thinking about the cookies, etc issue chrome folk brought up
  167. # [02:26] <olliej> Hixie: i'm not sure why the spec needs to change
  168. # [02:26] <olliej> Hixie: the correct behaviour is for the browser to do the right thing
  169. # [02:27] <olliej> Hixie: and make sites on the same domain not run javascript concurrently
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  171. # [02:27] <olliej> Hixie: that avoids spec changes, it doesn't add artificial complexity to all webpages to deal with one browser
  172. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> heycam: it's a kind of browsing, but not lacking
  173. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> so maybe we need another word
  174. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> subbrowser
  175. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> like subgenius
  176. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> s/but not lacking/but lacking/
  177. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> webpager
  178. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> heycam: vim has a way to follow links too
  179. # [02:31] <heycam> with a plugin?
  180. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> heycam: nah, I mean in :help stuff
  181. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> ^] or whatever it is
  182. # [02:31] <heycam> yeah
  183. # [02:32] <heycam> seems to be a help file syntax specific thing tho
  184. # [02:32] <heycam> not sure i would class vim as a webpager from that :)
  185. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> true
  186. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> lynx doesn't even implement the DOM, right?
  187. # [02:33] <heycam> :r! lynx -dump http://www.google.com/
  188. # [02:33] <heycam> no i don't think it does script
  189. # [02:33] <MikeSmith> I don't see how it could rightly do CSS to any degree eiterh
  190. # [02:33] <heycam> w3m does reasonable table layout
  191. # [02:34] <heycam> don't know if it looks at css tho
  192. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> I don't mean just the rendering, but internally how it could deal with managing it
  193. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> I use w3m (and w3mmee) and elinks and lynx a lot
  194. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> but calling them browsers is like calling Amaya a browser
  195. # [02:35] <heycam> :)
  196. # [02:37] <dave_levin> olliej: ping
  197. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> [[
  198. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> First Murderer: We are men, my liege.
  199. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> Macbeth: Ay, in the catalogue ye go for men,
  200. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> As hounds and greyhounds, mongrels, spaniels, curs,
  201. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> Shoughs, water-rugs, and demi-wolves are clipt
  202. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> All by the name of dogs.
  203. # [02:37] <olliej> dave_levin: pong
  204. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> ]]
  205. # [02:38] <dave_levin> olliej: I was just reading the cookie stuff. Is the problem there for any mutlithreaded UA?
  206. # [02:38] <olliej> dave_levin: only if the multithread UA doesn't actually put any effort into ensuring correct semantics
  207. # [02:38] <olliej> dave_levin: multiple sites on the same domain cannot run js concurrently
  208. # [02:39] <dave_levin> olliej: But a worker can run concurrently with the page and I thought that was the problem.
  209. # [02:39] <olliej> dave_levin: workers are a special class of problem
  210. # [02:39] <olliej> dave_levin: and cookie access can be controlled
  211. # [02:40] <olliej> dave_levin: standard js running in the main page context doesn't have any such luck
  212. # [02:41] <olliej> dave_levin: i think it would be easy to get the correct semantics
  213. # [02:41] <olliej> without having pages on the same domain running synchronously all the time
  214. # [02:42] <olliej> dave_levin: basically when js references the cookie list (or local storage, etc) that js takes a lock that is not released until js has finished executing
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  216. # [02:42] <dave_levin> olliej: Ok, I haven't been following that very closely. I had thought the issue came up due to trying to get workers to have access to the cookies.
  217. # [02:42] <dave_levin> olliej: And the workers may execute for a long time (like a ray tracer).
  218. # [02:43] <olliej> dave_levin: nope, workers are a different kettle of fish
  219. # [02:43] <dave_levin> olliej: thx for your time. I was simply curious.
  220. # [02:43] <olliej> dave_levin: while there are isues, you can actually control access (as they don't just have access to the cookies from get go)
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  222. # [02:49] <dave_levin> olliej: Oh I see. It came out of the worker discussion but then became this other thing. And you simply want the spec to be less demanding about the specifics of how this should be done. Instead the spec should simply say what the guarantee is and leave it up to the UA to figure out how to satisfy that.
  223. # [02:49] <olliej> dave_levin: yes
  224. # [02:49] <dave_levin> olliej: fwiw, that sounds reasonable to me :)
  225. # [02:49] <dave_levin> olliej: But I not involved in that.
  226. # [02:50] <olliej> dave_levin: yeah, the proposal i saw earlier in the list before i just started ignoring it felt technically unsound
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  232. # [03:53] <Hixie> olliej: all pages in a browsing context have to be in one serialisable scripting unit, and all pages in one origin have to be in one serialisable scripting unit.
  233. # [03:53] <Hixie> olliej: so it's more than just per-origin
  234. # [03:57] <roc> yeah
  235. # [03:57] <roc> but olliej is still right -)
  236. # [04:03] <Hixie> about what?
  237. # [04:07] <roc> about the big issue
  238. # [04:14] <Hixie> not sure i understand. are you agreeing with a particular proposal?
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  240. # [04:14] <Hixie> i agree that concurrency is a big issue, that's why the spec has all this prose in it about making sure things like cookies and localstorage work :-)
  241. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: does the current spec disallow blockquote as a descendant of header?
  242. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> and as a descendant of address?
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  248. # [04:44] <roc> Hixie: I think what you have is great
  249. # [04:45] <roc> it seems some Chrome people aren't happy about it
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  253. # [05:01] <Hixie> MikeSmith: not currently
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  267. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: did the spec previously disallow blockquote as a descendant of header?
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  274. # [06:33] <olliej> roc_: i think S3.1 had local storage
  275. # [06:33] <roc_> yeah?
  276. # [06:33] <olliej> but conceivably there could have been api changes since that original version
  277. # [06:33] * roc_ is now known as roc
  278. # [06:33] <olliej> definitely had the sql db apis
  279. # [06:33] <roc> yeah
  280. # [06:33] <olliej> i may have 3.1 around
  281. # [06:33] <olliej> one mo
  282. # [06:34] <roc> the DB APIs are all async (aren't they?) and transactional so they may not be a problem
  283. # [06:35] <roc> apart from the orthogonal "what SQL dialect is it anyway" problem
  284. # [06:35] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i don't think so
  285. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK
  286. # [06:36] <olliej> roc: hmmm, doesn't look like it, just sqldb
  287. # [06:36] <Hixie> roc: there is a sync DB API (as of today), for Workers, but that one is still transactional
  288. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering if hsivonen maybe added the blockquote constraints because of the outlining algorithm
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  306. # [07:42] <Hixie> abarth keeps outclassing me
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  310. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I like the part where other dude says "Your rants are getting irritating."
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  330. # [09:35] <hsivonen> hmm. why don't simple element selectors in text/html match non-http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml element in Opera?
  331. # [09:36] <hsivonen> do style sheets in text/html in Opera have an implicit http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml @namespace rule?
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  338. # [10:28] <annevk42> hsivonen, interesting find
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  343. # [11:06] <annevk42> "But your rants are getting irritating." some guy addressing abarth
  344. # [11:06] <annevk42> wtf
  345. # [11:07] <Hixie> holy crap, the call for reviews is bringing in a lot of reviews!
  346. # [11:07] <Hixie> excellent!
  347. # [11:07] <Hixie> and now to bed!
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  353. # [11:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/59 - matches for me
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  355. # [11:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/60
  356. # [11:49] <hsivonen> I smell a magic list :-)
  357. # [11:50] <annevk42> whoa, that's bad
  358. # [11:52] <annevk42> hsivonen, if nobody does XLink for MathML maybe they can just zap it?
  359. # [11:53] <annevk42> hsivonen, I have the feeling they're considering that
  360. # [11:53] * annevk42 would prefer that tbh
  361. # [11:53] <zcorpan> i'm wondering whether it's feasible to use <a href> in the html namespace mixed with mathml
  362. # [11:54] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-93-172-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  363. # [11:54] <annevk42> that sounds like layout trouble
  364. # [11:54] <annevk42> though where MathML allows variables I think HTML content can be inserted
  365. # [11:54] <jgraham> href everywhere for mathML sounds appealing. But it sounds appealing in HTML too…
  366. # [11:55] <zcorpan> <a href> could either wrap the whole <math> element or be inside <mi> etc
  367. # [11:55] <jgraham> Although s/everywhere/a well defined set of places where it makes sense/
  368. # [11:55] <zcorpan> <a href> has the advantage that it works with legacy UAs (and search engines)
  369. # [11:56] <zcorpan> disadvantage is that it's less flexible -- you can't link an mrow etc
  370. # [11:56] <zcorpan> though you can't link <tr> in html, either
  371. # [11:56] <jgraham> Being able to link parts of expressions seems useful
  372. # [11:56] <jgraham> like larger than single tokens but smaller than the whole thing
  373. # [11:57] <annevk42> MathML doesn't really have the compat issue as it's not widely deployed yet
  374. # [11:58] <jgraham> Does it have the implementation issue? It seems like href everywhere is no worse than xlink
  375. # [11:58] <jgraham> Also, isn't there some layout funkiness in MathML that could break if you insert random extra elements in the DOM?
  376. # [12:01] <annevk42> XLink is mostly bad because it is not well defined and we do not really need the additional namespace
  377. # [12:05] <annevk42> I don't really see why MathML could not have an href= attribute on several elements
  378. # [12:06] <annevk42> other than maybe the inconsistency it gives with HTML and SVG
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  381. # [12:12] <annevk42> oh, MathML did change back to id=""
  382. # [12:13] <annevk42> http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/appendixh.html still has some pointers to usage of xml:id="" though
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  386. # [12:35] <annevk42> hsivonen, twitter creates the tinyurls
  387. # [12:35] <Philip`> <a href> presumably doesn't help much when MathML is being used outside of HTML
  388. # [12:38] <hsivonen> annevk42: the twitterific tweet character limit seems to look at whatever URL I paste there--not a tinyurl version of it
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  391. # [12:43] <annevk42> hsivonen, that wasn't the question :)
  392. # [12:45] <hsivonen> annevk42: ok. still wondering about non-tinyurl.com short urls on twitter
  393. # [12:46] <hsivonen> seems like the SMS gateway is only useful as an excuse to keep the microblogging micro
  394. # [12:46] <hsivonen> I imagine it would be extremely annoying to actually receive tweets as SMS
  395. # [12:52] <Philip`> More useful for sending, probably
  396. # [12:53] <Lachy> hsivonen, it can also be expensive if you're on a plan that makes you pay to receive SMSs
  397. # [13:04] <jgraham> There are plans that may you pay to recieve SMS? That seems… open to abuse
  398. # [13:06] <Lachy> jgraham, AIUI, that's how the system commonly works in the USA
  399. # [13:06] <Philip`> I thought that was how it always worked in the US (and nowhere else)
  400. # [13:07] <jgraham> So, what happens if I send someone 10,000 SMS messages?
  401. # [13:07] <Lachy> I don't know of any other contries that have such a backwards system
  402. # [13:07] <Philip`> Then the phone company is laughing all the way to the bank
  403. # [13:08] <Philip`> (particularly since you have to pay to send too)
  404. # [13:09] <jgraham> Horray for free market capitalism
  405. # [13:09] <Lachy> the USA also makes you pay to receive calls on a mobile too
  406. # [13:10] <hsivonen> EU operators also laugh all the way to the bank when the customer is roaming
  407. # [13:11] <hsivonen> the Commission really should do something about data roaming, too
  408. # [13:11] <Lachy> hsivonen, excessive roaming costs seem to be charged worldwide, not just in the EU
  409. # [13:12] <jgraham> Paying to recieve calls is marginally less silly since you can lways choose not to answer the call
  410. # [13:12] <jgraham> (it is still pretty silly though)
  411. # [13:13] <Lachy> the only reasonable exception is for premium rate subscription services, cause if you're stupid enough to subscribe, then you deserve to pay
  412. # [13:14] <Lachy> but then, at least in Australia, they charge $0.55 AUD to receive, which is nearly triple the cost of sending a normal SMS
  413. # [13:15] <Lachy> (actually, they can charge more cause it's up to the service to set the fee)
  414. # [13:31] * Philip` wonders how the cost per megabyte of SMSs compares to e.g. a floppy disk carried by a limousine
  415. # [13:40] <hsivonen> does the spec lack document.all definition or am I bad at reading?
  416. # [13:44] <annevk42> it lacks it
  417. # [13:44] <hsivonen> I filed a bug
  418. # [13:44] <hsivonen> as it happens, I broke document.all locally
  419. # [13:45] <annevk42> document.all is such a pain
  420. # [13:45] <hsivonen> it would be nice to know how it is supposed to work in order to unbreak it the right way
  421. # [13:45] <hsivonen> fixing Gecko to use the XHTML namespace in text/html breaks all sorts of interesting things
  422. # [13:47] <hsivonen> sigh. document.all is quirks-mode-only in Gecko but works in the standards mode in Opera and WebKit
  423. # [13:48] <jgraham> Philip`: It seems like a floppy disk full of SMS messages would be about 1000 pounds which is roughly 8 hours of limo hire. Unless I am wrong by a factor of 1000 somewhere
  424. # [13:50] <hsivonen> sigh. document.all isn't interoperable to begin with
  425. # [13:51] <annevk42> did you see what I just wrote on document.all? :)
  426. # [13:51] <hsivonen> Opera puts name=x in document.all["x"] but Gecko and WebKit don't
  427. # [13:52] <hsivonen> aaargh. IE8 XSS protection on live dom viewer strikes again
  428. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: could you turn the XSS protection off, please?
  429. # [13:55] <hsivonen> looks like IE8 agrees with Gecko and WebKit
  430. # [13:55] * hsivonen decides Opera behavior is a bug here
  431. # [13:58] <annevk42> IE8 in quirks mode?
  432. # [13:58] <hsivonen> standards mode
  433. # [13:59] <hsivonen> quirks, too
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  435. # [14:00] <annevk42> also for elements like <input name=x> or <img name=x>?
  436. # [14:06] <hsivonen> aargh. are those magic?
  437. # [14:06] <hsivonen> sigh.
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  439. # [14:08] <annevk42> https://bugs.opera.com/browse/CORE-8133
  440. # [14:08] <annevk42> oops
  441. # [14:08] <annevk42> meant to copy http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dom.html#dom-document-getelementsbyname
  442. # [14:08] <annevk42> which lists magic elements
  443. # [14:09] <hsivonen> thanks
  444. # [14:11] <hsivonen> ah. Gecko changed here earlier this month, so I was wrong to use the latest release as my baseline of sane behavior
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  449. # [14:58] <Philip`> "Woohoo, I'm gonna be famous!" - who's going to break the news to them that that typo was already reported on Bugzilla? :-)
  450. # [14:59] <Lachy> Philip`, where is that quote from?
  451. # [15:00] <Philip`> Lachy: WHATWG list
  452. # [15:00] <jgraham> Philip`: I think you are focusing on the wrong misapprehension
  453. # [15:04] * Dashiva wonders how many of those typos could be fixed with a spell checker
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  455. # [15:09] <Lachy> Dashiva, http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/single-page/,spell
  456. # [15:11] <Fyrd> Philip`: That would have been me. Bah, knew that had to be too easy. :)
  457. # [15:11] <Fyrd> Guess I'll just have to work harder for immortality.
  458. # [15:12] <jgraham> Lachy: or, alternatively M-x flyspell-mode
  459. # [15:12] <Lachy> jgraham, what?
  460. # [15:13] <jgraham> Lachy: Inline spellchecking in Emacs. It seems more useful as a solution since it allows the errors to be corrected
  461. # [15:14] <Lachy> there's something weird about that W3C spell checker, since it's freezing Minefield
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  465. # [15:19] <Philip`> Fyrd: You could also hope that Hixie gets confused by timezones and thinks your email was sent before the Bugzilla bug was filed
  466. # [15:21] <annevk42> that spell checker should ignore <code>
  467. # [15:22] <Philip`> That wouldn't help with typos in code comments
  468. # [15:22] <annevk42> grmbl
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  470. # [15:22] <annevk42> I wrote getElementsByClassName
  471. # [15:22] <annevk42> hopefully people can read over that
  472. # [15:23] <Fyrd> Philip`: Ooh, yeah, maybe! :)
  473. # [15:23] <Fyrd> Actually I have some other errors up my sleeve.
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  476. # [15:28] <annevk42> Fyrd, you'll now be known as the guy that tried to get his name in HTML5 by reporting a spelling error... and failed! :D
  477. # [15:29] <Fyrd> annevk42: :(
  478. # [15:29] <Dashiva> That's probably better fame-wise than being one among hundreds of acks in the spec
  479. # [15:29] <Fyrd> annevk42: Oh well, I'll take it.
  480. # [15:30] <annevk42> Fyrd, I can see how this might not be funny to you. Fortunately you were planning on doing more review :)
  481. # [15:32] <Fyrd> It is funny, I just like making sad faces.
  482. # [15:33] <Fyrd> Besides, I'm sure the XHTML2 group would be more than happy to receive my spellcheck powers! Ha!
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  484. # [15:35] <Philip`> But they won't make you famous unless you join their WG
  485. # [15:36] <jgraham> You can get famous in the XHTML2 WG? I thought you languished in academic obscurity
  486. # [15:36] <Fyrd> Ah well. Never mind then.
  487. # [15:36] <Philip`> HTML5 is happy to give equal fame to cats as to browser developers
  488. # [15:36] <Fyrd> Maybe I should have my cats report typos then.
  489. # [15:37] <Fyrd> My time-travelling cats, that is.
  490. # [15:37] <jgraham> Yeah it true that the acknowledgements list is too long. Maybe I should train some cats to kill the other people on it
  491. # [15:37] <Fyrd> Anyway, back to work now. I guess I'll report future stuff in Bugzilla.
  492. # [15:39] <Philip`> I don't think there's much value in using Bugzilla rather than the list
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  494. # [15:40] <Philip`> I suppose there might be a bit of value in checking both Bugzilla and the list for duplicates before posting, but that's not too important since we'll let Hixie deal with it :-)
  495. # [15:40] <Philip`> so it's probably best to just do whatever's easier
  496. # [15:40] <Fyrd> Well, at least I can try to be less redundant by seeing what's already been reported there.
  497. # [15:41] <Fyrd> Okay, thanks!
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  499. # [15:43] <annevk42> hsivonen, where you put the dual tokens leaks in one way or another
  500. # [15:43] <Lachy> using bugzilla for reporting spec bugs is useful because it keeps the volume of traffic on the mailing list lower
  501. # [15:44] <annevk42> hsivonen, so the spec will have to dicate something
  502. # [15:44] <Philip`> Lachy: Why is lowering volume on the mailing list a goal?
  503. # [15:45] <jgraham> For typos it generates the same amount of mail
  504. # [15:45] <Lachy> because it means discussions like that on bug 6684 don't generate too much noise
  505. # [15:45] <hsivonen> annevk42: It doesn't leak if you make createElementNS lowercase and throw upon importing non-lowercase node from an XML doc
  506. # [15:46] <hsivonen> annevk42: but I'm not convinced that plugging the leak is worthwhile
  507. # [15:46] <Lachy> jgraham, that's because bugzilla has been misconfigured to send new bugs to public-html instead of just public-html-bugzilla
  508. # [15:47] <Philip`> Lachy: Almost the entire purpose of the mailing list is to have discussions, so it seems discussions should go there
  509. # [15:47] <annevk42> hsivonen, what exactly is your strategy?
  510. # [15:47] <hsivonen> annevk42: do you mean implementation strategy?
  511. # [15:47] <Philip`> (Bugzilla might be more useful for things there's no point in anyone except the editor reading and no need for discussion, like typos)
  512. # [15:48] <Lachy> Philip`, in principle, yet. But experience with public-html suggests that it's useful to try and keep as much unproductive discussion off the list as possible, so that the little bit of productive discussion that goes on there doesn't get drowned out in the noise
  513. # [15:49] <annevk42> hsivonen, what is the alternative to what I posted for getElementsByTagName?
  514. # [15:51] <hsivonen> annevk42: the alternative is that each element node has a pointer to an interned compound name struct (aka. node info in Gecko and qualified name in WebKit) and this struct has pointers to four interned items:
  515. # [15:51] <hsivonen> namespace, local name, prefix and ASCII-lowercased local name
  516. # [15:52] <hsivonen> then in XML, selectors preserve case and match against local name
  517. # [15:52] <hsivonen> and in HTML selectors are lower-case and match against ASCII-lowercased local name
  518. # [15:53] <hsivonen> making SVG-in-text/html nodes give the appearance of case-insensitive selector matching
  519. # [15:54] <annevk42> that's not just a different strategy, that gives different results
  520. # [15:54] <hsivonen> and the third alternative is using a single local name atoms on both sides and magic fixup lists that can't support textArea
  521. # [15:54] <hsivonen> annevk42: different results
  522. # [15:55] <annevk42> i think what bz said makes the most sense
  523. # [15:55] <annevk42> that's also what i said on IRC yesterday... :)
  524. # [15:55] <hsivonen> so, yeah I guess there's no way around the spec forcing which side you put the dual atoms on
  525. # [15:56] <hsivonen> annevk42: yesterday I didn't know that bz would be OK with HTMLness compare plus pointer compare instead of just pointer compare :-)
  526. # [15:56] <Fyrd> Hey, shouldn't this page: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/ include the newly separated specs? Or are they listed somewhere else?
  527. # [15:57] <annevk42> they moved to the W3C
  528. # [15:57] <annevk42> http://dev.w3.org/html5/
  529. # [15:59] <Fyrd> Ah, okay, thanks.
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  546. # [17:32] * gsnedders wonders about a !feedback bot
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  578. # [19:00] <gsnedders> <h1>foo</h1><section><h1>bar</h1></section><p>where — what section is "where" associated with?
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  597. # [19:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: Foo
  598. # [19:48] <jgraham> asasuming the spec makes sense
  599. # [19:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's what I'd logically expect. I'm not entirely convinced the spec makes sense though.
  600. # [19:54] * Philip` is concerned about overuse of the terms "logic" and "sense"
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  611. # [20:15] <mpilgrim> man, that HTTPbis thread is epic
  612. # [20:16] <mpilgrim> it's like arguing with a toddler
  613. # [20:16] <mpilgrim> "Would you like an apple or an orange?"
  614. # [20:16] <mpilgrim> "I want a pony!"
  615. # [20:16] <mpilgrim> "No. Would you like an apple, or would you like an orange?"
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  617. # [20:16] <mpilgrim> "I want a pony!"
  618. # [20:16] <mpilgrim> "All right, I'll make the choice for you."
  619. # [20:16] <mpilgrim> "NOOOOOOO!"
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  621. # [20:18] <mpilgrim> "Would you like browsers to behave according to a documented algorithm or an undocumented algorithm?"
  622. # [20:18] <mpilgrim> "I want a pony!"
  623. # [20:19] <mpilgrim> "No. Would you like browsers to behave according to a documented or undocumented algorithm?"
  624. # [20:19] <mpilgrim> "I want a pony!"
  625. # [20:19] <mpilgrim> "Would you like me to make the choice for you?"
  626. # [20:19] <mpilgrim> "NOOOOOOOO!"
  627. # [20:19] <Dashiva> It's a sneaky way to say "I want neither of those", maybe
  628. # [20:20] <gavin_> it seems to me that the most productive way forward is to push for Adam's option a) (remove content-type restrictions) rather than b) (add the sniffing algorithm to the HTTP spec)
  629. # [20:20] <gavin_> the argument that "http forbids us from doing this" isn't a very strong one in my mind
  630. # [20:20] <gavin_> it should be fixed, but it's hardly the critical problem some people are making it out to be
  631. # [20:21] <mpilgrim> I predict the actual solution will be c) HTTPbis continues to ignore reality, and HTML5 or some sub-spec will contain the phrase "The following algorithm is a willful violation of blah blah blah"
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  633. # [20:22] <gavin_> I think an a) solution is possible with a small phrasing change... but maybe even that's being optimistic
  634. # [20:22] <gavin_> I don't think your option c) is a huge problem
  635. # [20:23] <mpilgrim> nor do i
  636. # [20:23] <mpilgrim> note that i am not actually a fan of content-sniffing
  637. # [20:23] <mpilgrim> at all
  638. # [20:23] <mpilgrim> but documented crap is better than undocumented crap
  639. # [20:23] <gavin_> indeed
  640. # [20:25] <annevk2> having it documented will hopefully discourage additional sniffing
  641. # [20:25] <mpilgrim> hahaha
  642. # [20:25] <mpilgrim> no, that won't happen either
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  644. # [20:26] <annevk2> I'm still hoping :)
  645. # [20:26] <mpilgrim> there are whole new avenues of sniffing yet to come
  646. # [20:26] <mpilgrim> audio formats
  647. # [20:26] <mpilgrim> video formats
  648. # [20:27] <annevk2> fonts
  649. # [20:27] <mpilgrim> fonts, indeed
  650. # [20:27] <annevk2> admittedly media types suck
  651. # [20:28] <jcranmer> x-cabal/x-html
  652. # [20:29] <annevk2> doing the right thing for fonts (getting font/otf) is apparently very hard so we really went ahead with the draft
  653. # [20:29] <annevk2> so we never really*
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  655. # [20:41] * gsnedders predicts mpilgrim is right and solution c prevails… again
  656. # [20:42] <mpilgrim> somebody should add my prediction to http://wrongtomorrow.com/
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  659. # [20:47] <Philip`> It's kind of hard to *not* implement content-sniffing for fonts when nobody's bothered registering a type, even if everyone has the best of intentions and doesn't want sniffing
  660. # [20:48] <Philip`> Someone should set up wrongtoday.com and put the HTTP spec on it
  661. # [20:48] <annevk2> yeah, we should have just forced people to use font/ttf or font/otf and then bother about registration later
  662. # [20:48] <annevk2> it's too late now though, I think
  663. # [20:49] <Philip`> The TTF/OTF distinction is a bit meaningless, which makes things confusing
  664. # [20:49] <Philip`> (since OTF is a backward-compatible extension to TTF, and can still use .ttf files)
  665. # [20:49] <Philip`> (unless you use the non-backward-compatible parts of OTF, in which case you can use .ttf or .otf)
  666. # [20:49] <Philip`> (I think)
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  668. # [20:50] <Philip`> Hmm, that reminds me, http://fonts.philip.html5.org/ is still breaking the law
  669. # [20:51] <Philip`> since it sets the font names to "Subset of [original name]", and the Open Font License says you mustn't use any part of the original name for your new font, and I forgot to implement that
  670. # [20:51] <Philip`> but nobody has complained yet, so that's okay
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  674. # [20:55] <annevk2> Philip`, the idea would be that they would both be handed to the same processor. I wasn't quite convinced by this part of the story but the other people involved in the discussion thought that having a distinct mapping for both .ttf and .otf was worth it even though in practice it would be meaningless.
  675. # [20:56] <Philip`> As long as you can use either extension and either content-type and it will work without needing to understand the distinction, that sounds fair enough
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  694. # [22:13] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/ee0b30dd0904030511w559c76bey3a6ddb4a95b5d90c@mail.gmail.com would be grounds for banning in the whatwg, i wonder what the w3c did about it
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  697. # [22:14] <Hixie> (of course the e-mail it is replying to would be grounds for permanent banning on the grounds that it's a linkspam bot)
  698. # [22:15] <Hixie> (but that's another story)
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  700. # [22:19] <gavin_> why would that be grounds for banning?
  701. # [22:20] <Hixie> oh i guess i misread it and didn't realise he was using the word "spammer" literally as opposed to as an insult
  702. # [22:20] <Hixie> never mind
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  705. # [22:37] <Philip`> Is Ojan Vafai just trying to make clickjacking attacks far easier?
  706. # [22:38] <ojan> Philip`: how so?
  707. # [22:38] <ojan> Philip`: if you meant that as a serious question, the answer is no :)
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  709. # [22:45] <Philip`> ojan: Because one of the difficulties with clickjacking is positioning and scrolling the target page so the link or button or whatever is in the right place, and your proposal was to provide a feature that lets you much more easily scroll the target page to wherever you want
  710. # [22:45] <Philip`> ojan: Also, it wasn't an entirely serious question ;-)
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  713. # [22:54] <ojan> Philip`: the use case i gave is actually the one that inspired the idea. things like image search (e.g. MS image search or google image search) would work a lot better if they could scroll the image into view
  714. # [22:58] <Hixie> philip is right that it would make clickjacking easier
  715. # [22:58] <Hixie> but i think in practice it doesn't make it significantly easier
  716. # [22:58] <Hixie> in that it's already possible to "scroll" an iframe by just making it high enough
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  719. # [23:36] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  720. # [23:39] <jwalden> Philip`: that's not exactly hard, is it? iframe in an iframe with the outer of the two abspos-ing the inner one to produce exactly the pixels desired
  721. # [23:41] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  722. # [23:47] <Philip`> jwalden: It's harder to get decent cross-browser cross-platform support that way, since the absolute positioning will depend on fonts and layout and stuff
  723. # [23:47] <jwalden> eh...hitting the 2/3 case is good enough if that's what you're trying to do
  724. # [23:48] <Philip`> Not if you're using it to target a specific individual, and don't know what browser they're going to be using
  725. # [23:48] <jwalden> the money in attacks is in affecting a large audience
  726. # [23:48] <jwalden> anyway, it's like buffer overflows, once you have one you know you're pretty much hosed, even if it might take a lot of effort and potentially be machine-specific
  727. # [23:49] <Philip`> Not if you're tricking one person into clicking the "send one million dollars to this bank account" button on their online banking ystem
  728. # [23:49] <jwalden> or heap smashes
  729. # [23:49] <Philip`> s//s/
  730. # [23:50] <Philip`> Anyway, yes, if you're vulnerable to normal clickjacking then that should be fixed, and it doesn't matter if the attack is made easy, so this doesn't seem like a real problem :-)
  731. # [23:50] <Philip`> s/easy/easier/
  732. # [23:56] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lbb70.l.pppool.de) (Client Quit)
  733. # Session Close: Sat Apr 04 00:00:00 2009

The end :)