/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 06 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  46. # [08:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: the foreign flag is a two-state separate variable that the tree builder checks for each start tag token before checking the instertion mode aka. 'secondary' insertion mode
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  49. # [08:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: that seems like just an extra "if" statement per token
  50. # [08:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: what's the benefit?
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  52. # [08:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: the benefit depends on how insertion modes have been implemented
  53. # [08:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems to me that this eliminates a second method / function pointer-based method call per foreign start tag token
  54. # [08:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: I suppose on could eliminate the extra if by rolling the foreign behavior into the main mode switch and by changing the value of the variable to switch on and re-switching when falling back onto the secondary mode
  55. # [08:50] <Hixie> well i don't have an opinion on how you should implement it
  56. # [08:51] <Hixie> but i don't see why a separate switch is better for the way the spec describes it
  57. # [08:51] <hsivonen> was jgraham's infinite loop his bug or a spec bug?
  58. # [08:52] <Hixie> his bug
  59. # [08:52] <Hixie> (and unrelated to the insertion mode)
  60. # [08:54] <hsivonen> ok
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  68. # [09:38] <hsivonen> which WG should spec the behavior of XPath being matched against a DOM that is an 'HTML document' for the purposes of the flag defined in HTML 5?
  69. # [09:38] <Hixie> my solution would be "don't use XPath"
  70. # [09:38] <hsivonen> which WG should spec the behavior of the XSLT 'html' output mode in the case of in-browser DOM-to-DOM transform
  71. # [09:38] <Hixie> why is "use the infoset as defined for xml" not satisfactory?
  72. # [09:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: we still need a spec
  73. # [09:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: no
  74. # [09:39] <Hixie> "why" not "is" :-)
  75. # [09:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: for compatibility with existing content, when an XPath expression is used via document.evaluate, a name expression where the namespace is no namespace and local name is /local/,
  76. # [09:40] <Hixie> sounds like xpath would have to define this, if it needs changes to xpath semantics
  77. # [09:40] <hsivonen> must evaluate to true when compared against a DOM element node name whose namespace is http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml and local name is /local/
  78. # [09:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: it would be nice to have an informative note about this in HTML 5
  79. # [09:42] <Hixie> tell me what it should say in a bug
  80. # [09:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'll file bugs on XSLT, XPath and HTML 5.
  81. # [09:42] <Hixie> i know only enough about xpath and xslt to know to avoid them
  82. # [09:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, that doesn't help me when just following HTML 5 would break mochitests and existing content
  83. # [09:43] <Hixie> just remove the relevant features :-)
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  86. # [09:46] <hsivonen> ooh. there's an XSLT 2.1 in the works
  87. # [09:46] * hsivonen goes looking for public WDs
  88. # [09:47] <hsivonen> hrm. I can't find a public WD for XSLT 2.1.
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  90. # [09:53] * MikeSmith looks for XSLT 2.1 also
  91. # [09:57] <hsivonen> where does the XSLT 2.0 spec even define the serialization algorithms?
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  93. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: seems that XSLT 2.1 draft is member-only at this point
  94. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> as is pretty much all their draft content
  95. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks. I'll file bugs against the released specs, then.
  96. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I find http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-xquery-serialization/
  97. # [10:01] <hsivonen> If the WG wants to make it know to the general public whether their drafts have the same bugs, they can change the bugzilla fields
  98. # [10:01] <hsivonen> s/know/known/
  99. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> yeah
  100. # [10:01] <hsivonen> thanks. I didn't realize the serialization spec was separate.
  101. # [10:02] <hsivonen> I was performing random-access reads to XSLT 2.0 and missed normative references if there were any
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  104. # [10:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe you should treat new html5 elements when validating html4 the same as legacy elements when validating as html5
  105. # [10:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i.e. whine about <article> being a new element but don't skip the subtree
  106. # [10:15] <jgraham> Hixie: Actually I need to check that the infinite loop isn't a spec bug because I think I have an if statement left that was supposed to prevent it but, without looking at the code, it seems like it should be unnecessary now
  107. # [10:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good idea!
  108. # [10:15] <Hixie> jgraham: is that the same bug you mailed me about?
  109. # [10:16] * jgraham thinks some more and realises he's not sure it is unnecessary
  110. # [10:16] <jgraham> Hixie: No
  111. # [10:16] <Hixie> ah ok
  112. # [10:16] <Hixie> so what is the if statement in question?
  113. # [10:17] <jgraham> Hixie: It was about getting a <svg> or <math> element processed as if In Body when In Foreign Content
  114. # [10:17] <jgraham> Which I think sets the secondard insertion mode to In Foreign Content
  115. # [10:17] <Hixie> is there a sample markup snippet demonstrating what you mean?
  116. # [10:18] <jgraham> Hixie: Probably something like <svg><foreignObject><math>
  117. # [10:18] <jgraham> iirc
  118. # [10:18] <jgraham> (maybe you need something else)
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  120. # [10:18] * jgraham goes to look at the code
  121. # [10:18] * zcorpan filed http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=472
  122. # [10:19] <hsivonen> thanks!
  123. # [10:19] <Hixie> jgraham: i don't see why that would be a problem
  124. # [10:21] <jgraham> Hixie: The problem I was having, which may or may not have just been a bug, was that both the insertion mode and the secondary insertion mode were In Foreign Content, so hen you hit something that tried to switch the insertion mode to the secondary insertion mode and reprocess the token an infinite loop occurred
  125. # [10:22] * jgraham realises he doesn't have the right tree on this computer, gives up
  126. # [10:23] <Hixie> oh yeah
  127. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about bug 472, the obsolete-element checking for HTML5 is just in the Assertions.java code, right?
  128. # [10:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes. and legacy.rnc makes them non-errors on the RNG layer
  129. # [10:23] <Hixie> jgraham: i guess we shouldn't change the insertion mode if it's already in foreign, for "math" and "svg" start tag tokens
  130. # [10:24] <jgraham> Hixie: I think that was my if statement :)
  131. # [10:26] <Hixie> jgraham: fixed
  132. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so implementing a similar mechanism for warning about HTML5 elements in HTML4 checking would require adding a corresponding legacy.rnc with the HTML5 elements, and adding an Assertions.java for HTML4 checking?
  133. # [10:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes. although now the HTML 4-related assertions are in real .sch
  134. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> OK
  135. # [10:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: only because I haven't gotten around to reimplementing that .sch in Java
  136. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see. well, if you want, I can take a shot at implementing zcorpan's suggestion and send you a patch to review
  137. # [10:30] <jgraham> Hixie: Thanks
  138. # [10:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that would be nice
  139. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK. so this is the schema code in validator/schema/xhtml10/ , right?
  140. # [10:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
  141. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> OK
  142. # [10:38] <hsivonen> I've now filed 4 bugs: one on XSLT and XPath each and two on HTML 5 about making notes pointing out the same things.
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  144. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: btw, about http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=467
  145. # [10:40] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yes?
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  147. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: do you have tests that are not already included in the automated set of tests that validator.nu runs when it builds the "test" target?
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  149. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> or is it that the tests need to be incorporated in the JSON mechanism that's there?
  150. # [10:44] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i don't know which tests are run
  151. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> OK
  152. # [10:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the JSON db is not included in the 'test' run yet
  153. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> ah
  154. # [10:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: 'test' runs fantasai's tests
  155. # [10:44] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i'm not aware of any validator-specific tests i have around other than those at http://simon.html5.org/test/validator/
  156. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see
  157. # [10:46] <Hixie> sicking: document.write() when not in a parser-triggered <script> always implied a document.open()
  158. # [10:46] <hsivonen> (also, when I was developing Web Forms 2.0 validation, 'test' ran a modified version of annevk's Web Forms 2.0 suite, but I can't distribute those files.)
  159. # [10:46] <Hixie> sicking: there is never a race condition that might insert data in a random place in the input stream
  160. # [10:46] <Hixie> sicking: (this matches implementations, and is, i thought, clear in the spec)
  161. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I see now. I was thinking you had more there, under the content-model subdir
  162. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: does it match Gecko/WebKit or only IE/Opera?
  163. # [10:47] <Hixie> everyone as far as i know
  164. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. my recollection is different, but I agree with your point.
  165. # [10:47] <Hixie> there are occasional cases where you can trick some browsers into inserting text in arbitrary places in the input stream, but those seem to be rare bugs
  166. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, zcorpan: anyway, I see now that the purpose of the json thing is to allow testing of remote documents, right?
  167. # [10:49] <Hixie> bed time
  168. # [10:49] <Hixie> nn
  169. # [10:50] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yep
  170. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK. and it requires that v.nu report only a single error message?
  171. # [10:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no, the harness only compares the first message from remote against the first message from db
  172. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> OK
  173. # [10:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Full-Stack_Tests
  174. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> thanks
  175. # [10:54] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: after having fixed a bug, you can do python validator-tester.py adduri url-of-test
  176. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> oh, cool
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  179. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: minor problem with this test:
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  181. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/unescaped-ampersand.html
  182. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> failing because db say to expect the error to start at column 7, but v.nu reports it at column 4
  183. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> should I go ahead and update it before adding other tests?
  184. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hmm, message output for that case no longer matches either
  185. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> it was:
  186. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> Text after \u201c&\u201d did not match an entity name. Probable cause: \u201c&\u201d should have been escaped as \u201c&amp;\u201d.
  187. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> but v.nu now says:
  188. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> u201c&\u201d did not start a character reference. (\u201c&\u201d probably should have been escaped as \u201c&amp;\u201d.
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  190. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: current result seems correct, so should I just update the db.json to that?
  191. # [11:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: please do
  192. # [11:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the test harness doesn't care about the text of the error message
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  199. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
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  201. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> I'll check that in and other the other of zcorpan tests that aren't in there yet
  202. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Can an XPath expression compiler tell from context if a given name expression will match against element names or against attribute names?
  203. # [11:48] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
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  207. # [12:20] <Lachy> looks like there's still some confusion about elements vs. tags. http://blog.whatwg.org/help-us-review-html5#comment-40489 I wonder what can be done to clarify the spec, even though it's already technically correct as is
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  209. # [12:28] <beowulf> Lachy: i think i undertand elements vrs tags but i don't understand those two parts of the spec as quoted in that comment...
  210. # [12:29] <Lachy> beowulf, why is it hard to understand that the root element is still present in the document, even though its tags may be omitted from the serialisation?
  211. # [12:30] <beowulf> because i'm an html author, not a ua author?
  212. # [12:31] <beowulf> but i get it now
  213. # [12:31] <Philip`> Depends on whether you view "the document" as a DOM or as a set of tags, I guess
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  215. # [12:33] <Lachy> yeah, that can be a little confusing for authors since the exact meaning of "the document" depends on the context in which its used
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  219. # [13:00] <hsivonen> did Web Apps inherit all the old DOM specs for maintenance purposes?
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  224. # [13:14] <annevk2> hsivonen, sort of, yes
  225. # [13:15] <hsivonen> annevk2: what's the preferred means of reporting spec change requests?
  226. # [13:17] <annevk2> emailing public-webapps or www-dom
  227. # [13:17] <hsivonen> annevk2: thanks.
  228. # [13:17] <hsivonen> I guess I need to read up on the reuse of the www-dom list
  229. # [13:18] <annevk2> it's used for event stuff but has traditionally been the place for issues with dom core as well
  230. # [13:18] <annevk2> since nothing much is happening with dom core until simon's draft is ready it hasn't been used for that recently I suppose
  231. # [13:19] <hsivonen> annevk2: is anyone managing updates to DOM Level 3 XPath?
  232. # [13:19] <annevk2> not really
  233. # [13:19] <hsivonen> annevk2: should I expect Web Apps to update that spec, or should I push for a delta-spec in the "APIs in HTML Documents" section of HTML5?
  234. # [13:20] <annevk2> there was an idea to standardize on an XSLT API as well but that hasn't happened either
  235. # [13:20] <hsivonen> does existing content pass HTML DOMs into such an API?
  236. # [13:20] <annevk2> DOM3XPath is nothing more than a note so I suspect webapps would be the best place
  237. # [13:20] <hsivonen> ok
  238. # [13:20] <annevk2> I'm not really familiar with the XSLT API
  239. # [13:21] <hsivonen> ok
  240. # [13:21] <hsivonen> thanks
  241. # [13:21] <annevk2> though I believe Gecko/Presto/WebKit have one in common and IE has another
  242. # [13:21] <hsivonen> having it in 3 browsers makes me suspect someone out there is already using it on HTML DOMs
  243. # [13:22] <hsivonen> so the XPath hack needs to apply to XPath in the browser in general--not just to document.evaluate
  244. # [13:22] <zcorpan> didn't google docs or something use xslt in the dom?
  245. # [13:24] <zcorpan> does someone have an opinion about Element.parentElement?
  246. # [13:24] <zcorpan> s/some/any/
  247. # [13:24] <annevk2> doesn't seem harmful
  248. # [13:25] <annevk2> and we have firstElementChild and such too...
  249. # [13:25] <zcorpan> yeah
  250. # [13:26] * jgraham is against it
  251. # [13:27] <jgraham> Unless it becomes part of ElementTraversal
  252. # [13:27] <jgraham> Because it is totally redundant with parentNode
  253. # [13:27] <annevk2> why does it matter what it is part of?
  254. # [13:27] <annevk2> I think ElementTraversel should just be integrated in DOM Core fwiw
  255. # [13:27] <jgraham> annevk2: At the moment it is not part of anything at all, right?
  256. # [13:28] <annevk2> it's part of IE, WebKit and Opera
  257. # [13:28] <jgraham> What I really mean is that if it were in some spec I would accept it as inevitable
  258. # [13:28] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  259. # [13:28] <jgraham> annevk2: The fact that Firefox doesn't support it suggests that it is not needed for the web
  260. # [13:29] <zcorpan> nextElementSibling wasn't needed for the web, either
  261. # [13:29] <jgraham> AFAICT the only difference between parentNode and parentElement is that in one case you do while(node != document){} and in the other you do while(node != null){}
  262. # [13:30] <jgraham> nextElementSibling actually has a technical advantage for the common case where you want to iterate over elements but not other node types
  263. # [13:30] <jgraham> Although arguably it is redundant with jQuery
  264. # [13:30] <zcorpan> you can have elements in a DocumentFragment
  265. # [13:31] <annevk2> both array index and linked list also is redundant
  266. # [13:31] <jgraham> annevk2: ?
  267. # [13:32] <annevk2> I'm saying that redundancy is a "feature" when it comes to the DOM
  268. # [13:32] <annevk2> it's all over the place
  269. # [13:32] <zcorpan> let's add more!
  270. # [13:33] <jgraham> So your argument is that the DOM is so unweildy that we may as well add any extra feature because it only adds epsilon extra ugliness/confusion?
  271. # [13:34] <zcorpan> always doing whlie (n = n.parentElement) seems simpler than keeping track of what to check for in different cases
  272. # [13:35] <jgraham> I am toatlly unconvinced that the extra simplicity is worthwhile
  273. # [13:35] <annevk2> jgraham, I don't think parentElement is ugly or confusing
  274. # [13:35] <jgraham> annevk2: Do you think it is ugly or confusing to have two different methods that do almost exactly the same thing?
  275. # [13:36] <jgraham> (I agree that, in isolation, parentElement is not particularly bad)
  276. # [13:36] <annevk2> not necessarily, apparently :)
  277. # [13:36] <zcorpan> parentNode and parentElement have descriptive enough names to not be so confusing
  278. # [13:36] <hsivonen> parentElement makes sense for languages that don't do duck typing
  279. # [13:37] <hsivonen> it would make more sense in the Java DOM than in the JavaScript DOM
  280. # [13:37] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably the Java DOM has to support .parentNode anyway
  281. # [13:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes, but you need to cast it into Element explicitly to get at stuff that isn't on Node
  282. # [13:38] * jgraham wishes we could stop designing APIs that are supposed to be programming-language neutral and just design good APIs for the web
  283. # [13:38] <annevk2> I think we're doing that now
  284. # [13:38] <jgraham> annevk2: Really?
  285. # [13:39] <annevk2> when we design new APIs, yes
  286. # [13:39] <jgraham> annevk2: I guess localStorage is a pretty js-friendly api
  287. # [13:39] <annevk2> see e.g. overloading of postMessage
  288. # [13:40] <hsivonen> does WebKit implement XSLT as DOM-to-DOM like Gecko or as DOM-to-characters-to-DOM like IE?
  289. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Opera is like IE here, right?
  290. # [13:41] <hsivonen> (I wonder why, though. If Gecko can get away with DOM-to-DOM, why not Opera?)
  291. # [13:41] <Philip`> Loads of pages use parentElement
  292. # [13:42] <jgraham> Really? I wonder how Firefox gets away with not supporting it…
  293. # [13:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes, Firefox does DOM-to-DOM
  294. # [13:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: no disabling output escaping in the transform or document.write in the result
  295. # [13:43] <annevk2> hsivonen, jgraham meant parentElement
  296. # [13:43] <hsivonen> oh
  297. # [13:43] * jgraham was rather confused :)
  298. # [13:43] <annevk2> hsivonen, I'm not sure why we do what we do with respect to XSLT
  299. # [13:43] <Philip`> http://www.runningstrong.com/ -
  300. # [13:43] <Philip`> if (elem.parentNode) ... // IE5, IE6 and Netscape 6
  301. # [13:43] <Philip`> else if (elem.parentElement && elem.parentElement.setAttribute) ... // IE4.
  302. # [13:43] <Philip`> else // Netscape 4.6x or 4.7x
  303. # [13:43] <Philip`> //alert("Must be Netscape! do nothing");
  304. # [13:44] <Philip`> (Lots of pages have that code)
  305. # [13:44] <Philip`> http://www.evo-solutions.com/ - firedobj=ns6? firedobj.parentNode : firedobj.parentElement
  306. # [13:45] <Philip`> http://villacapri.8m.com/ - while (EventTag.parentElement&&(EventTag.tagName!="A")){ EventTag=EventTag.parentElement; }
  307. # [13:47] <Philip`> http://www.ozteknik.com/ - if (TempJudge && SrcTecMenuIE ){ if (thisobj.parentElement.className=="SrcTecMenuClass"+thisobj.parentElement.id+"On") ... }
  308. # [13:47] <Philip`> and lots of others
  309. # [13:48] <Philip`> (In that last case, SrcTecMenuIE = (document.all))
  310. # [13:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think opera does reparse because dom-to-dom broke various htmlness issues that a reparse fixed given our architecture
  311. # [13:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ah. DOM-to-DOM is magic in Gecko in its handling of local names
  312. # [13:50] <hsivonen> clearly, there would have been a need for a spec for this stuff, since browser differ radically in their implementation approach
  313. # [13:50] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks. i guess that's reason enough to add it to web dom core
  314. # [13:50] <Philip`> zcorpan: Depends on whether you want to get the IE browser-sniffing path or the Netscape browser-sniffing path
  315. # [13:51] <zcorpan> Philip`: hmm
  316. # [13:53] <annevk2> the ones that check seem to check for parentNode first
  317. # [13:54] <zcorpan> var ns6=document.getElementById&&!document.all
  318. # [13:55] <zcorpan> rather they seem to check for other things than parentElement in their checks
  319. # [13:55] * Quits: wilhelm (i=wilhelm@trivini.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  320. # [13:56] <zcorpan> so if you're not "netscape" you might get the parentElement code path
  321. # [13:57] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  322. # [13:57] <annevk2> why does http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/?slow-browser#named-access-on-the-window-object list the named elements twice?
  323. # [13:57] <zcorpan> http://www.ozteknik.com/ just uses it without checking
  324. # [13:58] <hsivonen> looks like we don't have interop here: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/64
  325. # [13:59] <hsivonen> but here we have interop: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/65
  326. # [13:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think gecko is alone in disabling document.all in standards mode
  327. # [14:00] <hsivonen> oh. right. good point
  328. # [14:01] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/67
  329. # [14:01] <hsivonen> Gecko shows a different class compared to WebKit and Opera
  330. # [14:03] <zcorpan> ie8, opera and webkit all say [object HTMLCollection]
  331. # [14:05] <zcorpan> i guess parentElement should be on Node?
  332. # [14:05] <annevk2> is it on Node now?
  333. # [14:05] <gavin_> that "HTML document.all class" dates back all the way to implementation of "undetectable document.all" support
  334. # [14:06] * gavin_ can't find any justification for it
  335. # [14:06] <gavin_> bet we could change it!
  336. # [14:07] <zcorpan> hmm the live dom viewer save link doesn't work in ie8
  337. # [14:07] <zcorpan> it's on Node in webkit
  338. # [14:08] <zcorpan> HTMLElement in opera
  339. # [14:08] <zcorpan> Element in ie8
  340. # [14:09] <zcorpan> the ElementTraveral attributes are going to be on Node, right?
  341. # [14:10] <annevk2> maybe
  342. # [14:11] <zcorpan> i seem to remember feedback saying they should be on Node but that would be deferred to 2.0 because of willingness to get the spec to REC quickly
  343. # [14:11] * Joins: Fyrd (n=adeveria@nat1.newsargus.com)
  344. # [14:16] * jgraham accidentially reads the alt requirements again, realises, again, that they are works of pure fiction compared to what will actually happen
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  350. # [14:24] <Philip`> jgraham: The requirements in the spec?
  351. # [14:24] * Joins: Hish_ (n=chatzill@p5B38301E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  352. # [14:24] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes.
  353. # [14:25] * jgraham probably shouldn't say anything related to alt at all ever
  354. # [14:28] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#dom-node-parentelement
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  357. # [14:35] <Philip`> jgraham: I've generally given up trying to read the spec to work out what my alt text should be, because it seems to go into so much detail that I can't find any relevant advice
  358. # [14:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: would the spec be easier to understand if it said "Conformance requirements regarding the usage of the alt attribute are given in WCAG 2.0."?
  359. # [14:37] <Lachy> Philip`, is that because it doesn't cover your specific case, or because you can't figure out which cases apply to your images?
  360. # [14:37] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@53568A94.cable.casema.nl)
  361. # [14:37] <Lachy> zcorpan, no.
  362. # [14:37] <Philip`> zcorpan: No
  363. # [14:38] <jgraham> Philip`: I wasn't even trying to write alt text. A search just landed me there and I thought "if I had a dollar for every instance of a screenshot with a precise description of the screen contents on a real website, I would have exactly zero dollars"
  364. # [14:38] <zcorpan> please say so to pf people
  365. # [14:38] <Philip`> Lachy: I can't figure out whether it does cover my specific case
  366. # [14:39] <Lachy> Philip`, can you point to specific case of yours as an example?
  367. # [14:39] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  369. # [14:41] <Philip`> Lachy: There was http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-April/014446.html a while ago
  370. # [14:42] <Philip`> The spec has been updated, so maybe it now deals with those specific cases, but the alt description is eight pages long so I'm not going to bother reading it to check
  371. # [14:42] * Joins: mgrdcm (n=mgrdcm@c-69-246-244-191.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
  372. # [14:43] <Philip`> (I could cope much better with more general advice, like saying that pages should remain understandable if all the images are replaced by their alt text)
  373. # [14:43] <zcorpan> Philip`: you can check the toc to see which cases the spec lists
  374. # [14:45] <zcorpan> Philip`: it also has a section called General guidelines
  375. # [14:46] <jgraham> Yeah there could be a conformance requirement like "Pages must be understandable when images are not avaliable" and the alt attribute sould just say "the attribute provides alternative text for an image which is often required comply with the requirements in section x.y.z"
  376. # [14:46] <jgraham> That would annoy the pf people no end
  377. # [14:47] <Philip`> zcorpan: Having the general guidelines hidden underneath a dozen tedious case descriptions is not a good way to make me discover them :-)
  378. # [14:48] <zcorpan> Philip`: bug hixie to move them up
  379. # [14:49] * Joins: taf2_ (n=taf2@65.210.82.235)
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  381. # [14:49] <zcorpan> hmm http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536654(VS.85).aspx
  382. # [14:50] <Philip`> Reading the TOC doesn't really help either - if I e.g. want to write a page describing a game that's decorated with some screenshots that link to full-size images when you click on them, the first one I noticed when randomly scanning the TOC was "4.8.2.1.6 A purely decorative image that doesn't add any information", which says to use alt="", which is wrong
  383. # [14:50] <Lachy> Philip`, specifically which case in that email? The first one mentioned about the google logo now seems to be fairly well addressed in the spec
  384. # [14:51] <Philip`> Lachy: I don't know, I haven't bothered checking the latest version of the spec because I don't care enough :-p
  385. # [14:52] <Lachy> Philip`, ok. You're making it difficult to undrestand how to address your problems
  386. # [14:52] <Lachy> *understand
  387. # [14:53] <jgraham> Lachy: It seems pretty clear. Make that section of the spec shorter
  388. # [14:56] <Philip`> Lachy: Adding text to the spec to clarify the existing cases or cover new cases to address my problems would just make my higher-level problem (that I'd like to write acceptable alt text but the spec is too verbose and hard to read) worse
  389. # [14:58] <Lachy> making the spec detailed enough to cover all cases is in direct conflict with the desire to make it more concise
  390. # [14:59] <Philip`> It can cover all cases by being more general, rather than by being more detailed
  391. # [14:59] <Lachy> would it be better to instead make the spec easier to navigate and somehow helping people to more easily identify applicable cases
  392. # [15:00] <Philip`> That suggests that authors will write an <img>, think "ooh, I need some alt text", then open the HTML5 spec, navigate to the applicable case, read the instructions, and then write their alt text
  393. # [15:00] <jgraham> We could write a text-based adventure frontend to the spec
  394. # [15:00] <Philip`> which is horribly inefficient
  395. # [15:00] <Lachy> since I'm going to have to eventually explain this in the authoring guide, it would be good to figure out how to make that more approachable than the spec.
  396. # [15:00] <Philip`> and therefore unlikely to happen
  397. # [15:00] <jgraham> "You are in a maze of twisy reccomendations, all alike"
  398. # [15:01] <jgraham> "It is dark, you are likely to be eaten by a lawyer"
  399. # [15:01] <beowulf> can't you just decide to dump @alt?
  400. # [15:03] <Philip`> It's more realistic if the author writes an <img>, thinks "ooh, I need some alt text", then remembers an approximation of the nice concise description of alt they read in the HTML5 spec six months ago, and then writes their alt text, and nobody points at them and laughs and says "you're a moron, section 4.8.2.1.11.6.9 specifically addresses this image and says you should write this specific text"
  401. # [15:03] <zcorpan> Lachy: copy the general guidelines section, then say "for more detail or suggestions for specific cases, refer to the spec"
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  415. # [16:05] <annevk2> hsivonen has awoken the XML gods: http://twitter.com/elharo/statuses/1462873257
  416. # [16:07] <hsivonen> annevk2: too bad the removal of the Selectors special case introduced an XPath special case
  417. # [16:08] <annevk2> better XPath special case than special cases in the more commonly used features
  418. # [16:08] * Quits: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-222-191.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  419. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> "The only thing they hold sacred are 10-year old browser bugs."
  420. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> beautiful
  421. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> we should start a quotations page
  422. # [16:09] <hsivonen> it's a DOM Level 2 / XHTML 1.0 issue, actually...
  423. # [16:10] <hsivonen> or Namespaces issue...
  424. # [16:10] <annevk2> yeah, it's clear from the accusation that he hasn't really followed what this is about
  425. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> we should do like Elijah, line up the priests of Baal and put them all to a test
  426. # [16:11] <hsivonen> of course, this wouldn't be an issue if XPath had had a namespace wildcard by default like Selectors
  427. # [16:11] <hsivonen> a lot of issues can be traced down to Namespaces sucking in the first place
  428. # [16:12] <hsivonen> or more precisely, the changing naming from a single string into a pair
  429. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> and everybody knew it was f*ucked up from teh beginning
  430. # [16:12] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: :)
  431. # [16:13] <annevk2> which can be traced back to RDF which is why XML has namespaces
  432. # [16:13] <hsivonen> indeed
  433. # [16:13] <annevk2> a Semantic Web seed carefully planted to make the current Web more complicated...
  434. # [16:14] * Joins: mgrdcm (n=mgrdcm@65.111.247.194)
  435. # [16:17] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/distobj/status/1462908234 more rambling without reading
  436. # [16:20] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  437. # [16:21] <zcorpan> <title role="html:h1">?
  438. # [16:22] <hsivonen> wouldn't architectural forms be more like <div html="h1">?
  439. # [16:23] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  440. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> ah, more gems
  441. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> "the IETF tries to master entropy"
  442. # [16:28] <takkaria> "The correct solution is simple: require namespace well-formedness for HTML 5 documents. Until the spec takes that simple step, ..."
  443. # [16:30] <jcranmer> where is this?
  444. # [16:30] <takkaria> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6777
  445. # [16:30] <Philip`> "The difference between the IETF and the WHATWG is that the WHATWG respects the laws of thermodynamics"
  446. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> like Christian Democrats asserting that existing social institutions work just fine, but the problem is just that people don't follow the (arbitrary) rules, therefor the solution is to fine ways to compel/force more people to just bend to their will and follow the rules
  447. # [16:31] <gsnedders> http://www.youtube.com/user/ie8videos
  448. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> faith-based specification development
  449. # [16:32] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L866e.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  450. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> maybe they can get some US government funding for their work
  451. # [16:33] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@adsl-76-204-180-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  452. # [16:33] * jcranmer wants to smack comment 8
  453. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> the problem with the whatwg is that it's soft on crime
  454. # [16:36] <jcranmer> does she realize she's asking the impossible?
  455. # [16:36] <annevk2> she?
  456. # [16:38] <gsnedders> A female name, like Anne :P
  457. # [16:38] <Philip`> jcranmer: Things that are impossible just take longer
  458. # [16:39] <Lachy> jcranmer, comment 8 where?
  459. # [16:39] <jcranmer> Elliotte -- names that end in -te tend to be feminine
  460. # [16:39] <jcranmer> Lachy: 10:27 < takkaria> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6777
  461. # [16:40] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Also, to make you happy, I've now almost finished dissertation on Nabokov
  462. # [16:40] <Philip`> jcranmer: Like "Pete"?
  463. # [16:40] <jcranmer> I said "tend to be"
  464. # [16:40] <jcranmer> besides, Pete is usually short for Peter
  465. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: you would make me really happy if you told me that you burned it after you finally have it done
  466. # [16:40] <Lachy> jcranmer, Elliotte sounds more like a male name. But that depends how its pronounced
  467. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: that's what all great creative types do
  468. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> Sibelius, etc.
  469. # [16:43] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@pia145-154.pioneernet.net)
  470. # [16:43] <Philip`> And there's that guy on Youtube who built an image out of matchsticks and then burnt them all
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  473. # [16:45] * Philip` wonders if Elliotte is an unusually rare name, or if elharo just has a lot more page-rank than all the others
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  485. # [17:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you should try to get http://v.nu/
  486. # [17:15] * Quits: mgrdcm (n=mgrdcm@65.111.247.194)
  487. # [17:16] <Philip`> If that's taken, try http://ν.nu
  488. # [17:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: earlier, when it was up for auction, I decided that it wasn't worth my money (or Mozilla's money) at its price.
  489. # [17:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I forgot what the price was.
  490. # [17:17] <zcorpan> ok
  491. # [17:17] * Philip` wonders why .nu
  492. # [17:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: also, I didn't like the idea of paying a squatter
  493. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think it was that they auction the single-letter domains, and it starts at 500 euro or so
  494. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't think it's necessarily a squatter
  495. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> or maybe it was in this case
  496. # [17:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: it was the least ugly (the only? I forget) validator.tld domain available
  497. # [17:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: also, you are supposed to pronounce "nu" like English "new"--not like French "nu" :-)
  498. # [17:19] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  499. # [17:19] * Philip` pronounces it like English ν :-)
  500. # [17:19] <Philip`> (which is like "new")
  501. # [17:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: or like swedish "nu" (which means "now") :)
  502. # [17:20] * Joins: mgrdcm (n=mgrdcm@65.111.247.194)
  503. # [17:20] * gsnedders pronounces like French "nu" :)
  504. # [17:20] <Philip`> (at least according to the mathsy people who I've heard use that term)
  505. # [17:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think it was more expensive than 500 EUR the last time
  506. # [17:21] <hsivonen> but like I said, I forgot
  507. # [17:22] * gsnedders thinks he should start editing his English dissertation
  508. # [17:22] * gsnedders sighs
  509. # [17:22] <gsnedders> When will I finish it!?
  510. # [17:22] <gsnedders> (Likely answer: hours before it has to be sent off.)
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  512. # [17:23] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  513. # [17:23] <hsivonen> whoa. Hixie is not on IRC. screen died perhaps?
  514. # [17:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why waste hours of valuable editing time before it has to be sent off?
  515. # [17:25] <hsivonen> does Chrome support XSLT?
  516. # [17:26] <hsivonen> according to w3schools, yes
  517. # [17:26] * hsivonen ducks having used w3schools as a reference
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  519. # [17:26] <zcorpan> hsivonen: w3c can't be wrong
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  522. # [17:42] <gsnedders> Wikipedia is so much easier than trying to find information from an entire novel
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  524. # [17:51] <Lachy> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/04/making_time_saf.html
  525. # [17:53] <hsivonen> perhaps HTML 5 should say that <time> is not safe for historians
  526. # [17:53] <hsivonen> I thought it already did
  527. # [17:53] <hsivonen> so more clearly than now
  528. # [17:54] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  529. # [17:56] <Lachy> I thought it did too, but it seems that it isn't clear enough
  530. # [17:56] <Lachy> I don't understand what PPK means by allowing "arbitrary year-naming systems to be specified"
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  535. # [18:00] <zcorpan> seems pointless to have a cutoff date at 1870 or 1918
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  537. # [18:02] <Philip`> Seems pointless to have a cutoff date at 1
  538. # [18:02] <zcorpan> the point with having it at 1 is that it keeps the syntax simple
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  540. # [18:04] <Lachy> Philip`, the cut off date was set to 1 because anything else would be competely arbitrary and it made things simple without requiring syntactic changes
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  543. # [18:05] <annevk3> times/dates suck
  544. # [18:06] <Philip`> Lachy: Negative infinity would be less arbitrary than 1
  545. # [18:07] <Philip`> (I guess 0 would be less arbitrary than 1 too)
  546. # [18:07] <Lachy> negative dates would require additional syntax and give teh false impression that time is designed for historical dates
  547. # [18:07] <Lachy> there was no year 0, so we had to pick 1
  548. # [18:08] <Philip`> Syntax is a pretty trivial issue
  549. # [18:09] <Lachy> sure, the changes to the algorithm and implementation needed to support dates beginning with a '-' is trivial. But completely unnecessary
  550. # [18:09] <Philip`> There's a year 0 in the ISO 8601 proleptic Gregorian calendar
  551. # [18:09] <Philip`> and it's just as meaningful as year 1
  552. # [18:09] <Lachy> yes, but that's confusing because year 0 in 8601 is 1BCE
  553. # [18:10] * Philip` doesn't find that confusing :-)
  554. # [18:10] <Lachy> Philip`, ask some random people whether -0004-01-01 is 3BCE or 4BCE.
  555. # [18:11] <Lachy> or 5BCE
  556. # [18:11] <Philip`> Random people probably would never recognise it as a date
  557. # [18:11] <Lachy> well, HTML authors who are familiar with the ISO-8601 syntax
  558. # [18:12] <Lachy> i.e. people who use hCalendar
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  563. # [18:21] <Philip`> Lachy: Ask the same people whether 2 September 1666 is 1666-09-02 or 1666-09-12 and they'll probably get it wrong too, but we're not trying to protect them from that
  564. # [18:22] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  566. # [18:24] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm sure they would get that wrong too. But choosing to explicitly add support for negative years when we know it's problematic is different from supporting pre 16th century dates simply as a result of the syntax
  567. # [18:24] <Lachy> actually, 17th century, but whatever.
  568. # [18:26] <krijnh> Are people here okay with me moving the logs over to my new website, http://www.krijn-engineering.nl/ ?
  569. # [18:27] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (No route to host)
  570. # [18:28] <Lachy> krijnh, if you set up a redirect, yes
  571. # [18:29] <Philip`> krijnh: I like your use of a 404 in a <bgsound>
  572. # [18:29] <krijnh> Philip`: what? Ow, that's a bug then :/ Damnit
  573. # [18:30] <Philip`> krijnh: You need to be more careful when you're uploading your web site from Word
  574. # [18:31] <annevk3> you'd think krijnh would know a bit about HTML after logging this channel for two years
  575. # [18:31] <Lachy> krijnh, wtf? Why have you published a page created with Microsoft Office?
  576. # [18:32] <krijnh> How do you know it's made with Office?
  577. # [18:32] * Lachy collects krijnh's whatwg cabal membership card.
  578. # [18:32] <krijnh> I thought I stripped out that code :/
  579. # [18:32] <Lachy> look at the source.
  580. # [18:32] <annevk3> punk'd
  581. # [18:32] <annevk3> :D
  582. # [18:33] <Philip`> krijnh: Surely you should write that page with SVG rather than VML
  583. # [18:34] <krijnh> *sigh*
  584. # [18:34] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@pia145-154.pioneernet.net)
  585. # [18:34] <krijnh> You're way too elitist you!
  586. # [18:34] <krijnh> Not everybody can handcode HTML :(
  587. # [18:34] <Philip`> You don't need to handcode it - just use Inkscape
  588. # [18:35] <Philip`> and then use Amaya to merge it with the HTML
  589. # [18:35] <krijnh> In fact I did, and after that I copied it to Word, cause the margins were easier to manage in Word
  590. # [18:35] <annevk3> but Word also kills babies
  591. # [18:35] <krijnh> The rounded corners were pretty hard to create in Word, so that's why I used Inkscape
  592. # [18:35] <krijnh> But it's not finished yet
  593. # [18:36] <krijnh> I think the design should be centered
  594. # [18:37] <Philip`> Needs more clipart
  595. # [18:37] <hsivonen> is the use of OOo allowed?
  596. # [18:38] <krijnh> I'll tell it to my webdesinger
  597. # [18:39] <hsivonen> I blame all the uppercase tags on my site on OOo.
  598. # [18:41] <Philip`> You should use Tidy
  599. # [18:42] <hsivonen> why?
  600. # [18:42] <Philip`> To make things tidy
  601. # [18:42] <Philip`> like lowercasing tags
  602. # [18:43] <hsivonen> the ROI is unclear to me
  603. # [18:44] <annevk3> ISO 8601 is not Y100K proof
  604. # [18:45] <Philip`> Human civilisation is not Y100K proof
  605. # [18:45] <tantek> Lachy, Philip' - supporting day-precise negative years or even years 18th century and earlier is asking for a heap of trouble/complexity
  606. # [18:45] <tantek> no matter the format
  607. # [18:45] <annevk3> Philip`, that's unclear
  608. # [18:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: If you "blame" something for uppercase tags, presumably you dislike uppercase tags, and hence there would be some aesthetic value in lowercasing them
  609. # [18:46] <Philip`> annevk3: History is probably a good indicator, in the absence of any other evidence
  610. # [18:46] <annevk3> Philip`, it might be that the calendar format we have is not Y100K proof though
  611. # [18:47] <Philip`> Not even the Romans lasted a hundred thousand years
  612. # [18:47] <annevk3> Philip`, Romans are a subset of human civilisation...
  613. # [18:48] <gsnedders> tantek: I don't think anyone apart from those who are saying we must support such things or else time is pointless thinks that isn't the case
  614. # [18:49] <tantek> let them see this chart then, and write the *location*-sensitive code themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar#Timeline
  615. # [18:49] <Philip`> tantek: We've already asked for the heap of trouble by trying to support dates at all - if we don't support ancient dates then we have some arbitrary cutoff date instead, which will just cause different kinds of trouble
  616. # [18:49] <gsnedders> Oh yeah, they've brought up the complexity caused by that, and said we should just provide a means to provide dates in other calendars to circumvent that problem
  617. # [18:50] <tantek> Philip' no need to have an "arbitrary" cutoff date, simply use 1926 as the cut-off and cite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar#Timeline as the justification
  618. # [18:50] <tantek> and invite counter-proposals with *better* justifications/citations
  619. # [18:51] <Philip`> tantek: Sounds pretty arbitrary to base it on when Turkey switched calendar
  620. # [18:51] <tantek> Philip' - it's simply the last country to switch over in that list
  621. # [18:51] <Philip`> and introduces unnecessary complexity if e.g. a UK-based site wants to mark up people's dates of birth
  622. # [18:51] <gsnedders> tantek: They have given counter-proposals of allowing an attribute to specify the calendar in use for the date format
  623. # [18:52] <tantek> thus from 1926 on, you know that Gregorian dates are consistent worldwide
  624. # [18:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: s/Turkey/Greece/ ?
  625. # [18:52] <hsivonen> oops.
  626. # [18:52] * hsivonen read the wrong sentence on wikipedia
  627. # [18:52] <tantek> gsnedders, based on what evidence that people specify alternative calendars?
  628. # [18:52] <tantek> RFC2445 similarly has such a field, but in practice it is always GREGORIAN
  629. # [18:53] <hsivonen> (someone should mention Turkey in the wikipedia prose in addition to the image that doesn't respond to Find on Page)
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  631. # [18:55] <Philip`> tantek: If Saudi Arabia decided tomorrow to switch from the Islamic calendar to the Gregorian, should we restrict <time> to use 2009 as the cut-off?
  632. # [18:56] <annevk3> reading http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3339#appendix-A I wonder why some people argue we should simply reference ISO 8601; seems like a disaster
  633. # [18:56] <tantek> Philip - I call theoretical. E.g.: if aliens showed up tomorrow with a better datetime format, should we switch to use it?
  634. # [18:57] <annevk3> i think we should form a comittee and compromise between all the various formats
  635. # [18:58] <gsnedders> tantek: Evidence? They're trolls, they don't need evidence.
  636. # [18:58] <annevk3> (that RFC syntax also does not allow Y10K)
  637. # [18:58] <tantek> lacking evidence, trolls can be ignored.
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  640. # [19:00] <tantek> annevk3 - in that case, here is my proposed new calendar: http://tr.im/newcal
  641. # [19:00] <Philip`> tantek: So the cut-off date should be defined as the date that the latest country officially switched to the Gregorian calendar according to Wikipedia (ignoring China which is complex) before 2009?
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  643. # [19:01] <tantek> Philip', see above, you are free/encouraged to provide "counter-proposals with *better* justifications/citations"
  644. # [19:01] <tantek> (wow PBWiki 2 forced upgrade (really a downgrade) really screwed up some markup)
  645. # [19:03] <Philip`> tantek: I counter-propose setting the cut-off date at 1, which is justified by being useful for a wider range of use cases and by being easier to remember and by not depending on quite so many pieces of irrelevant trivia :-)
  646. # [19:03] <annevk3> of course ECMAScript is even worse as it does not define Date parsing at all :/
  647. # [19:05] <tantek> Philip - that's a reasonable counterproposal, you may want to add some wording about sticking to ISO8601 and for any dates in locations before they supported the Gregorian calendar, that they MUST use Proleptic Gregorian dates per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar#Proleptic_Gregorian_calendar
  648. # [19:07] * tantek has begun using ordinal ISO8601 dates with a hyphen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Ordinal_dates for filing/dating/signing purposes.
  649. # [19:09] <gsnedders> tantek: Why ordinal?
  650. # [19:09] * Philip` can only use year/month/day, because he can only remember year and his watch only tells him month/day
  651. # [19:11] <tantek> gsnedders - easier to do day math (how many days between date x and date y), and convert between Gregorian and NewCalendar
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  687. # [20:51] <Hixie> hsivonen: having one cake and eating another kinda misses the point of the expression :-P
  688. # [20:58] <tantek> Hixie, clearly the expression must have been underspecified.
  689. # [20:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have an actual solution to the problem (other than "don't implement XPath")?
  690. # [20:59] <Hixie> i don't understand the problem in enough detail to have an educated suggestion
  691. # [21:00] <hsivonen> The problem is this:
  692. # [21:00] <hsivonen> XPath has been exposed to content before the namespace unification
  693. # [21:00] <hsivonen> therefore, existing expressions expect HTML elements to be in no namespace
  694. # [21:01] <hsivonen> and XHTML elements to be in http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace
  695. # [21:01] <annevk3> arguably XPath for HTML is undefined so we can do whatever we want
  696. # [21:01] <hsivonen> We'd want to change things so that you can write one kind of new expressions for both *and* keep the old expressions out there matching, too
  697. # [21:01] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  698. # [21:02] <hsivonen> By default, the syntax people actually use doesn't wildcard the namespace as is the case with Selectors
  699. # [21:02] <hsivonen> instead, the namespace is fixed to be the 'no namespace'
  700. # [21:02] <hsivonen> in the XPath data model, a node can be in only one namespace
  701. # [21:03] <hsivonen> so to support both future expressions that use the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace and past expressions that use no namespace, WebKit violates the XPath data model
  702. # [21:04] <hsivonen> I have tentatively implemented the exact same violation in a patch for Gecko
  703. # [21:04] <hsivonen> annevk3: we can do whatever we want only if we are OK with breaking existing expressions
  704. # [21:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: It seems like an entirely reasonable and necessary violation to me
  705. # [21:05] <jgraham> Since I agree that there is a constraint that existing expressions should not be broken
  706. # [21:05] <annevk3> hsivonen, I mean we can "violate" XPath because technically it is not a violation as XPath for text/html is not defined
  707. # [21:05] <hsivonen> arguably, the violation could be adjusted to be a bit more sane if a no-namespace expression no longer matched no-namespace elements
  708. # [21:05] <hsivonen> when now in WebKit, it matches both no-namespace nodes and HTML nodes
  709. # [21:06] <hsivonen> annevk3: It's a violation of XPath if you cannot explain the behavior in terms of the XPath data model
  710. # [21:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: Would there still be a way to match no-nemaspace elements?
  711. # [21:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: no
  712. # [21:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: but one might argue no one should have no-namespace nodes in HTML trees anyway
  713. # [21:07] <annevk3> hsivonen, saying that no namespace and the XHTML namespace are identical for HTML trees is not good enough?
  714. # [21:07] <jgraham> One could argue lots of things :)
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  716. # [21:08] <hsivonen> annevk3: one might claim that the mapping to XDM not be bijective and that both no-namespace nodes and XHTML nodes flatten into one in XDM
  717. # [21:08] <jgraham> I think making XPath match either no-namespace or HTML namespace makes a lot of sense.
  718. # [21:08] <annevk3> XPath is indeed an exception btw, the DOM, Selectors, usually default to any namespace
  719. # [21:08] <hsivonen> annevk3: but that's still not enough to explain the WebKit behavior in terms of XDM
  720. # [21:08] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Can it not just be specified in terms of DOM-like interface in HTML 5?
  721. # [21:08] <hsivonen> annevk3: because a node can have only one namespace in XDM but we want both no-namespace and http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml-namespace expressions to match against the same nodes
  722. # [21:09] <gsnedders> i.e., this should follow DOM Level 3 XPath, but HTML elements should behave as if they are in no namespace
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  724. # [21:09] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the interface requires an additonal datum that isn't in XDM: the HTMLness flag on owner doc
  725. # [21:09] <annevk3> "This is a willful violation of the XDM."
  726. # [21:09] <hsivonen> gsnedders: unless you violate XML to XDM mapping in XHTML, too...
  727. # [21:09] <gsnedders> IMO XPath is the wrong place to spec this
  728. # [21:09] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.32)
  729. # [21:09] <annevk3> hsivonen, we can argue that in our XDM no namespace is the XHTML namespace
  730. # [21:10] <annevk3> hsivonen, that there's no distinction in our XDM
  731. # [21:10] <annevk3> hsivonen, for the purposes of the XDM, anyway
  732. # [21:10] <annevk3> hsivonen, but I'm not that interested in spec-lawyering, lets just deal with the fallout in 5 years rather than now :)
  733. # [21:11] <hsivonen> annevk3: the thing is, in terms of XDM, you only get to flatten things in the tree
  734. # [21:11] <hsivonen> annevk3: you don't get to flatten things in the expressions themselves
  735. # [21:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: annevk3 has a point. It is pretty clear what implementations have do do. We should ship the software then spec the required behaviour
  736. # [21:13] <jgraham> Since it's hard to argue with interoperable running code
  737. # [21:15] * jgraham wonders if that is somehoe not playing by the rules
  738. # [21:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, as you can see, what I did with code was to do exactly what WebKit does
  739. # [21:15] <Hixie> doing what webkit does seems like the simplest solution
  740. # [21:15] <gsnedders> What does WebKit do, exactly?
  741. # [21:15] <gsnedders> Does it only apply for HTML documents, or for all documents?
  742. # [21:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: the simpler solution is not to unify HTML and XHTML XDMs
  743. # [21:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: so that even future XPath would always have to be different for the two
  744. # [21:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: even if JS and Selectors Just Worked
  745. # [21:16] <hsivonen> it seems like an undesirable outcome not to be able to write unified XPath for HTML and XHTML, though
  746. # [21:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: s/simplest/best/ then
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  749. # [21:24] * tantek is a bit amazed.
  750. # [21:25] <tantek> which spec does Webkit violate? (URL?)
  751. # [21:25] <tantek> and is there a description for how it violates it, and *why*? (URL aside from #whatwg IRC logs)
  752. # [21:26] <Hixie> two bonus points to anyone who can guess the [[Class]] name of the element created by document.createElement('keygen')
  753. # [21:28] <hsivonen> tantek: XPath. and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6777
  754. # [21:28] <hsivonen> (sorry, gotta run now)
  755. # [21:28] * gsnedders guesses something totally illogical, thus doesn't guess
  756. # [21:30] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  757. # [21:30] <gsnedders> (Actually, I know it is something totally illogical: if that weren't the case, Hixie wouldn't be asking.)
  758. # [21:30] <Hixie> you're wrong
  759. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Sod.
  760. # [21:30] <Hixie> it is not one thing totally illogical
  761. # [21:30] <Hixie> it is THREE things totally illogical
  762. # [21:30] <Hixie> depending on the browser
  763. # [21:30] <Hixie> HTMLSelectElement, HTMLSpanElement, or HTMLElement
  764. # [21:30] <annevk3> HTMLElement, HTMLSpanElement, and HTMLSelectElement are not that illogical
  765. # [21:31] <Hixie> given that keygen should be exposing .disabled, they are
  766. # [21:31] <annevk3> you win :)
  767. # [21:32] <annevk3> the tree it gives in the DOM in Firefox/WebKit is also funny
  768. # [21:33] <Hixie> firefox just treats keygen as a magic macro in the parser, like <isindex>
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  770. # [21:34] * gsnedders realizes he is procrastinating, again
  771. # [21:34] <Hixie> but webkit actually creates a <select> element even for document.createElement('keygen')
  772. # [21:34] <annevk3> this will bite hsivonen
  773. # [21:35] <annevk3> (Opera doesn't actually expose .disabled)
  774. # [21:35] <gsnedders> (The version of U2's "The Fly" on "U2 Live from Boston" is awesome.)
  775. # [21:35] <Hixie> oh this is rich! guess what the return value of document.createElement('keygen').childNodes.length is
  776. # [21:36] <gsnedders> 2?
  777. # [21:36] <Hixie> per DOM Core, it cannot be anything but 0
  778. # [21:36] <Hixie> but webkit makes it 3
  779. # [21:36] <gsnedders> I was only one out!
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  783. # [21:49] <tantek> hsivonen, thanks for another laugh. your bug report elicited some quite (untintended I'm sure) humorous responses/requests.
  784. # [21:50] <tantek> e.g. "The specific step I would like to see happen is for HTML 5 to mandate namespace
  785. # [21:50] <tantek> well-formedness and require draconian error handling." LOL!
  786. # [21:50] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what elharo meant by that
  787. # [21:50] <Hixie> the literal interpretation is so obviously not going to work that i can only assume i misunderstood it
  788. # [21:51] <tantek> also, referring to "text/html" as "one special case" (same comment in bug thread)
  789. # [21:51] <tantek> it's always nice when people make it quite clear how out of touch they are with real world web development/deployment/maintenance.
  790. # [21:53] <annevk3> hmm, Opera <keygen> has more event handler attributes so it does have some differences from e.g. <span>
  791. # [21:54] <Hixie> if you think that's fun you should see roy's comments on ietf-http-wg
  792. # [21:54] <Hixie> about how web browsers are but a minor part of the http ecosystem and that their needs can basically be dismissed since they're not that important on the global scale of things
  793. # [21:55] <tantek> Hixie, URL? that sounds worth the read
  794. # [21:57] * tantek is collecting URLs to expand the documentation of why/how namespaces have failed on the web.
  795. # [21:57] <annevk3> FYI: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Namespace_confusion
  796. # [21:58] <Hixie> threat starting here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2009JanMar/thread.html#msg290 continuing here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2009AprJun/thread.html#msg0
  797. # [21:58] <Hixie> thread, even
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  799. # [21:58] <annevk3> amusing typo
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  805. # [22:08] <tantek> annevk3 - indeed - have seen it and am documenting here (cross-linked) http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful
  806. # [22:08] <tantek> recently found and added this: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/21/dive.html
  807. # [22:09] <tantek> worth reading. note how old it is.
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  809. # [22:12] <Philip`> http://google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#J7osgojbryc/src/java/org/web3d/x3d/jaxp/X3DSAVAdapter.java&q=X3DSAVAdapter&l=847 is fun
  810. # [22:13] <Philip`> if(!space.equals("xsd")) etc
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  812. # [22:14] <Philip`> (Xj3D is the closest thing to an 'official' implementation of X3D)
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  826. # [22:40] <tantek> Philip', nice example. I've added it to http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful#namespaced_content_has_failed . I wonder how many such examples could find by using google code search to look for similar string prefix literal instances/compares with common namespace prefix usages.
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  831. # [22:51] <annevk3> we should somehow deal with the JavaScript versioning issue
  832. # [22:51] <annevk3> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=487070
  833. # [22:51] <annevk3> otherwise it starts leaking all over the place
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  835. # [22:52] <annevk3> (I don't have a proposal :/)
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  838. # [22:55] <gsnedders> To what extent is form@method followed?
  839. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Are only certain methods allowed?
  840. # [22:56] <jgraham> annevk3: Yeah, we totlly need a good solution for that
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  843. # [22:59] <jgraham> It seems like in the short term Mozilla could do something like mozImportScripts but even ES5 vs ES3 needs a solution
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  845. # [23:01] <annevk3> gsnedders, yes, with GET as fallback
  846. # [23:01] <gsnedders> That's what I thought.
  847. # [23:01] <annevk3> gsnedders, RTFS
  848. # [23:01] <gsnedders> annevk3: That doesn't mean we have interop on it now.
  849. # [23:02] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-151-61-163.range81-151.btcentralplus.com) ("Gone for a burton")
  850. # [23:02] <gsnedders> (I don't care about TFS, I care about what is shipping)
  851. # [23:02] * jgraham was reading S as "Source"
  852. # [23:02] <annevk3> hehe, my answer works either way :p
  853. # [23:03] <jgraham> annevk3: You work for a proprietary browser company :)
  854. # [23:03] <annevk3> gsnedders, I suspect they follow the spec, but you'd have to test to be sure
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  856. # [23:04] <annevk3> jgraham, I didn't say it was easy :p
  857. # [23:05] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("->S")
  858. # [23:05] <jgraham> step 1: accept a job as a developer
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  860. # [23:05] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-4c631cb770f13cf7)
  861. # [23:06] <jgraham> step 2: leave
  862. # [23:06] <jgraham> step 3: accept a MS job that gives you access to the IE source
  863. # [23:06] <jgraham> Seems easier to just ask really
  864. # [23:06] <sayrer> tantek, you might want to look at <o:p> for your namespace document
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  867. # [23:14] <sicking> Hixie, re doc.write()
  868. # [23:14] <sicking> Hixie, that is not compatible with what at least firefox does. In a fairly catastrophicly incompatible way
  869. # [23:15] <sicking> Hixie, is that what IE does?
  870. # [23:17] <Hixie> sicking: as far as i can tell, the spec matches what Firefox does
  871. # [23:17] <Hixie> sicking: and what IE does
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  873. # [23:17] <Hixie> sicking: (with some minor edge case exceptions that are unlikely to be hit in practice)
  874. # [23:17] <sicking> Hixie, in firefox if you use document.write while the document is still loading, from for example a setTimeout, we do not wipe the current doc
  875. # [23:18] <sicking> Hixie, we insert into the stream, whereever that happens to be
  876. # [23:19] <Hixie> ah you are correct, i just looked at my notes
  877. # [23:19] <Hixie> firefox does something ridiculous (rewind the tokeniser if half-way through a token, etc)
  878. # [23:20] <Hixie> so i dismissed firefox's behavior as something nobody would rely on
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  880. # [23:20] <sicking> Hixie, indeed. Firefox is a guaranteed race condition
  881. # [23:20] <sicking> Hixie, does IE wipe the doc?
  882. # [23:20] <Hixie> yes
  883. # [23:20] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/007.html
  884. # [23:20] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/008.html
  885. # [23:21] <sicking> Hixie, so i'm a little scared to implement that, given how catastrophically things fail for gecko-specific content
  886. # [23:21] <sicking> Hixie, would prefer to make it a no-op instead
  887. # [23:22] <Hixie> i'll make this a no-op if you're willing to change the inner-window outer-window thing to what IE does. :-)
  888. # [23:22] <sicking> what does IE do?
  889. # [23:22] <Hixie> throw an exception if you run script in a window that's not active
  890. # [23:22] <sicking> not always
  891. # [23:23] <Hixie> my comment wasn't really a serious proposal
  892. # [23:23] <sicking> i know
  893. # [23:23] <Hixie> my point is that we can't just never do what IE does
  894. # [23:23] <sicking> agreed, but don't we have a lot of IE cruft in there?
  895. # [23:23] <Hixie> not really
  896. # [23:23] <sicking> like innerHTML, offsetLeft, XMLHttpRequest
  897. # [23:23] <Hixie> only innerHTML of those is in HTML5
  898. # [23:24] <Hixie> and it's specced to match firefox
  899. # [23:24] <Hixie> not IE
  900. # [23:24] <Hixie> i don't really see why doing it the way IE does here is a bad thing
  901. # [23:24] <Hixie> it seems to be what everyone else does
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  903. # [23:24] <Hixie> even firefox does it in most cases, just not timeouts
  904. # [23:25] <Hixie> e.g. from an onload="" it'll blow away the doc, no?
  905. # [23:25] <sicking> anything after DOMContentLoaded
  906. # [23:25] <sicking> not at all based on where it's called from, only when
  907. # [23:25] <sicking> so onmouseout, xhr.readystatechange, setInterval, etc, are all the same
  908. # [23:26] <sicking> i would be fine with trying to do what the spec says though
  909. # [23:26] <Hixie> if there is actual content that this breaks, then i'd be glad to consider it, but realistically speaking i imagine other browsers would be just as scared of making it a no-op
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  911. # [23:26] <sicking> it seems very unlikely that someone relies on current behavior, other than through bugs
  912. # [23:26] <sicking> true
  913. # [23:26] <sicking> sure, lets do this and if we find pages that break we can reeval
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  915. # [23:27] <Hixie> cool
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  925. # [23:57] <Hixie> hsivonen is going to love <keygen>. </sarcasm>
  926. # [23:59] * gsnedders takes a deep breath
  927. # Session Close: Tue Apr 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)