/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 08 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:35] <annevk3> yay email
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  14. # [01:09] <kimus> hi, can I strip unwanted tags with html5lib?
  15. # [01:09] <kimus> i'm testing it and the max I could get is a escaped tag
  16. # [01:11] <annevk5> you could try filtering the DOM
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  18. # [01:11] <kimus> hi annevk5, humm, ... that sucks :-)
  19. # [01:12] <annevk5> I don't know much about the current feature set of html5lib though
  20. # [01:13] <kimus> I just wanted a python module to 'normalize' user entered HTML
  21. # [01:13] <gsnedders> I don't think there is any easy way, kimus
  22. # [01:13] <gsnedders> I could be totally wrong
  23. # [01:14] <kimus> gsnedders: http://htmlpurifier.org/
  24. # [01:14] <kimus> works fine for php :-)
  25. # [01:14] <gsnedders> I mean in python html5lib
  26. # [01:15] <annevk5> writing a function that filters the DOM cannot be that hard
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  28. # [01:16] <annevk5> though it depends on how complex you want to make it of course :)
  29. # [01:17] <kimus> annevk5: it works fine like it's know... I just dont want to escape not allowed tags
  30. # [01:18] <kimus> not allowed attributes are removed
  31. # [01:19] <kimus> html5lib removes not allowed attributes... but there's no option to remove not allowed tags :-S
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  33. # [01:24] <kimus> i'm going to change the sanitize_token
  34. # [01:25] <kimus> in my class implementation
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  37. # [01:26] <kimus> annevk5 and gsnedders: done :-D
  38. # [01:27] <gsnedders> :P
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  40. # [01:32] <kimus> annevk5 and gsnedders: http://paste.ubuntu.com/146546/
  41. # [01:32] <kimus> was not hard... but...
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  48. # [01:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: When are you planning on doing ref now?
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  176. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: <keygen> needs to be added to the list of void elements in 8.1.2
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  179. # [08:13] <Hixie> fixed
  180. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> k
  181. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: there are not additional constraints on the value of the challenge attribute? any string?
  182. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> s/not additional constraints/no additional constraints/
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  187. # [08:24] <Hixie> MikeSmith: no, why would there?
  188. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie: dunno. because I have no idea what it really is or what normal values people/apps would have for it
  189. # [08:26] <Hixie> it's just a string used to salt the SPKAC structure
  190. # [08:26] <Hixie> presumably to prevent replay attacks, though i don't really understand what the replay attack would be
  191. # [08:26] <Hixie> since you wouldn't have the private key...
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  193. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> I see
  194. # [08:28] * MikeSmith reads blooberry's http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/tagpages/k/keygen.htm now
  195. # [08:28] <Hixie> that isn't particularly detailed
  196. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> I'm looking at the links
  197. # [08:28] <Hixie> good luck!
  198. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> it really sucks that AOL shut down developer.netscape.com without redirecting anything
  199. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> idiots
  200. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> ah great
  201. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> all of wp.netscape.com too
  202. # [08:29] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  203. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> they get a gold star for consistency at least
  204. # [08:33] <Hixie> bed time
  205. # [08:33] <Hixie> nn
  206. # [08:34] <zcorpan> morning!
  207. # [08:35] <zcorpan> <p>Alternative content</p> - http://nord-trondelag.sv.no/
  208. # [08:35] <zcorpan> yay for copy-paste
  209. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: (or anybody) what ARIA attribute set would be appropriate for keygen?
  210. # [08:37] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: tabindex?
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  213. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ARIA has a tabindex attribute?
  214. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> tabindex is a global attribute anyway, right?
  215. # [08:41] <zcorpan> don't remember if tabindex is global in aria
  216. # [08:41] <zcorpan> but yeah
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  218. # [08:42] <zcorpan> hmm maybe they removed tabindex from aria
  219. # [08:42] <zcorpan> "An implementing host language MUST provide support for the author to make arbitrary elements focusable, such as the tabindex attribute in HTML."
  220. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> that makes sense
  221. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I meant from among the sets that hsivonen already has in the schema
  222. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#implicit-aria
  223. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> maybe http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#common.attrs.aria.implicit.input
  224. # [08:43] <zcorpan> earlier tabindex was specified in aria because they wanted to use html4 and html5 was so long away from rec so not relevant
  225. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> ah
  226. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> so as far as keygen, isn't it essentially a specialized input control for submitting a public key?
  227. # [08:45] <zcorpan> wasn't "rude" removed from aria?
  228. # [08:45] * Joins: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  229. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: rude?
  230. # [08:45] <zcorpan> aria-live = "off" | "polite" | "assertive" | "rude"
  231. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> wow
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  237. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: per spec, <keygen keytype=""> should be valid, right? (because it defaults to "RSA")
  238. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#attr-keygen-keytype
  239. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> hmm
  240. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> "If an enumerated attribute is specified, the attribute's value must be an ASCII case-insensitive match for one of the given keywords that are not said to be non-conforming, with no leading or trailing whitespace."
  241. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> so keytype="" is not conforming
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  243. # [09:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not really knowing: would the closest analogue to keygen ARIA-wise input type=file?
  244. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I suppose
  245. # [09:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in any case, keygen is so special that overriding the role makes no sense
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  248. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, so no need to put any ARIA attributes on it at all?
  249. # [09:11] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-014.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
  250. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> Philip`: about https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=371594
  251. # [09:13] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@118-93-172-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  252. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> oops
  253. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=477564
  254. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> might be useful to have some data on what percentage of forms have hundreds of checkboxes
  255. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=477564#c14
  256. # [09:16] * Quits: onar (n=onar@c-98-234-65-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  257. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> "Thankfully, pages with 1000 checkboxes are few and far between."
  258. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> suspect that may not be so true
  259. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> at least I'd think there are a significant number with several hundreds of checkboxes
  260. # [09:23] * Joins: onar (n=onar@c-98-234-65-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  261. # [09:24] <Philip`> MikeSmith: The most I see is 230
  262. # [09:25] <Philip`> MikeSmith: and there's 5 with >100
  263. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> Philip`: OK
  264. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> thanks
  265. # [09:25] * Philip` wonders if it's worth commenting on that in that bug
  266. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> Philip`: worth it if you care about the bug at all, not worth it if you don't
  267. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> I guess
  268. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> not sure how much I care about
  269. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> seems like anybody designing forms with 500 or more checkboxes shouldn't be doing that anyway
  270. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> if they care about usability at all
  271. # [09:29] <Philip`> MikeSmith: A UI like http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journals doesn't seem too unusable
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  273. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> Philip`: hmm, and loads much faster than the HTML5 spec, at least
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  276. # [09:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: either no ARIA or only states and properties that make sense if some of them make sense
  277. # [09:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the real answer depends on what the Task Force is doing
  278. # [09:33] <zcorpan> i could imagine a single-page survey with a table and lots of checkboxes
  279. # [09:34] <hsivonen> I wonder if the TF has keygen on their tables
  280. # [09:34] <zcorpan> Statement | Fully agree | Partially agree | Neither agree nor disagree | Partially disagree | Fully disagree | Don't know
  281. # [09:35] <zcorpan> 6 times the number of statements, and surveys often have hundreds of statements
  282. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: how about I omit any ARIA attributes from keygen schema for now, but put a "#REVISIT: ARIA attributes" comment in?
  283. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, true
  284. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: seems ok
  285. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: but better design is to put them into multiple pages
  286. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> I would think
  287. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
  288. # [09:36] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: why?
  289. # [09:37] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it might be on the same page but on different slides implemented with javascript show/hide
  290. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> yeah, I suppose
  291. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> but I would hate to be in the middle of a hundreds-question survey and have my browser crash
  292. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> for one thing
  293. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> so that I have to go back and re-answer them all
  294. # [09:38] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: that's why firefox implemented the feature to restore the answers, no?
  295. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> or have some problem during form submission
  296. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> yeah, but I mean in general
  297. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> as far as designing across browsers
  298. # [09:39] <zcorpan> the page could do ajaxy autosave
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  300. # [09:39] <Philip`> zcorpan: Those would be radio buttons, not checkboxes
  301. # [09:40] <zcorpan> Philip`: right
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  303. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: after I added assertions-checking for img@usemap as a descendant of a|bb|button, the following test case is no longer valid:
  304. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> http://syntax.whattf.org/relaxng/tests/html5core/valid/043.html
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  306. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: seems like it's not necessary for the img instances in that particular test to have a usemap attribute
  307. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> so may I should just remove the usemap attributes there?
  308. # [09:45] <zcorpan> or add tests that use usemap but not <a> ancestor
  309. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yah, was now just thinking the same
  310. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> but not add, just change that existing test to not use <a> ancestors
  311. # [09:46] <zcorpan> not sure what it tests, the comments seem to be using pre-content model overhaul terminology
  312. # [09:47] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it also has ismap which requires <a> ancestor
  313. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> ah
  314. # [09:49] <zcorpan> <a href><img ismap><img ismap></a> seems to be allowed per spec
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  317. # [09:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok to remove the usemap
  318. # [09:51] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  319. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: k
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  321. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> hmm, should not object@usemap also be classified as interactive content?
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  323. # [09:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: topic notwithstanding, yes if img@usemap is classified as interactive
  324. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll raise in bugzilla
  325. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: for the img@usemap test, I'll delete from the existing test and just add another new test that has img with usemap but not with ismap
  326. # [10:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK. the existing tests often test too many things in one file
  327. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
  328. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> I guess I could just reduce the new test to a simple test that has a map and an img with usemap
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  332. # [10:36] * jgraham has a page with several thousand checkboxes
  333. # [10:36] <jgraham> Although it is not finished yet so the idea might not work in practice
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  337. # [10:54] * zcorpan is having difficulties understanding what html5 says should happen for <frameset rows=",86">
  338. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: any clues as to why the same test case is in both tests/html5full-xhtml/valid/043.xhtml and in tests/html5core/valid/043.xhtml ?
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  358. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: patch for htmlparser handling for <keygen> -
  359. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=76
  360. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> tested and works as expected (my local v.nu recognizes <keygen> as a void element)
  361. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> but I realize maybe some handling also needs to be added to cases other than IN_BODY
  362. # [12:41] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  363. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> (though that case is the only one for which the spec makes specific mention of <keygen>)
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  371. # [13:22] <annevk42> Philip`, is it easy to find more pages with broken Location headers?
  372. # [13:24] <annevk42> Philip`, it would be cool to have a "out of X amount of links Y amount of links had a Location header and of those Z amount of links had a broken Location header (relative, invalid character). List links that with broken headers: ..."
  373. # [13:34] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-75e8fe9d4858e266) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  374. # [13:37] <jgraham> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/04/08/HTML-Reunification
  375. # [13:38] <annevk42> Browser vendors no longer like HTML5?
  376. # [13:41] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-176-139.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  377. # [13:41] <hsivonen> I'm very annoyed by the proposal to break DOM Consistency for "language extensions".
  378. # [13:41] <hsivonen> why do "language extensions" have to go poke the "here be dragons" area? can't extensions simply not dabble with colons?
  379. # [13:42] <annevk42> And how does ubiquity-xforms qualify as language extension? Surely non-browsers would have to implement it natively short of implementing an AI-complete algorithm to figure out how it works from the attached ECMAScript library?
  380. # [13:43] <jgraham> Heh, I thought hsivonen would like that :)
  381. # [13:44] <hsivonen> annevk42: as far as I can tell, ubiquity-xforms needs to use colons only to keep up the appearances of the XForms syntax going strong
  382. # [13:44] <jgraham> annevk42: The presence of js libraries seems to blur the distinction between langauge extension and platform extension considerably
  383. # [13:44] <jgraham> e.g. <canvas> can be implemented in js for IE
  384. # [13:45] <annevk42> The inevitable result of this is everyone sending proprietary markup over the wire.
  385. # [13:46] <hsivonen> it seems to me that it's unsafe to assume that successful Firefox extension functionality wouldn't migrate to the core feature sets of browsers
  386. # [13:46] <annevk42> That "works" because of a bunch of ECMAScript libraries.
  387. # [13:46] <jgraham> I am kindof saddened that we have resorted to "consenus" politics being more important than the technical arguments that have been made
  388. # [13:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh, indeed
  389. # [13:47] <annevk42> hsivonen, true, but we're far way from something interoperable I think
  390. # [13:47] <hsivonen> annevk42: I mean the argument is that RDFa is a "language extension" that Firefox extensions could be sensitive to
  391. # [13:48] <annevk42> ah yeah, you mean it would make it a platform extension down the road?
  392. # [13:48] <hsivonen> annevk42: if it that setup becomes successful, why wouldn't the client-side feature migrate into Firefox itself or into the native feature set of other browsers that don't support Firefox extensions but need to support successful features?
  393. # [13:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: Indeed
  394. # [13:49] <jgraham> Although I think that is in some sense the goal
  395. # [13:49] <jgraham> Albeit not explicitly stated
  396. # [13:49] <hsivonen> if it's the goal, then the extension should play by the rules that are needed to avoid sucky browser core code down the road
  397. # [13:50] <annevk42> I hadn't reached the part around "It needs to be noted that such nodes are placed into the DOM today differently by HTML and XML parsers." yet. That's seems like a terrible solution.
  398. # [13:50] <jgraham> hsivonen: Sure. But W3C people are being told that their baby is ugly and they are trying to find ways to route around the objections rather than consider their merits
  399. # [13:51] <jgraham> It seems to me that one possible outcome of this is to break XML on the web entirely
  400. # [13:53] <zcorpan> "ARIA introduces elements and attributes ..." - aria introduces elements?
  401. # [13:53] <hsivonen> no
  402. # [13:54] <hsivonen> unless <access> is making its way into ARIA while people aren't looking.
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  404. # [13:56] <annevk42> "lesser-distributed extensibility"
  405. # [13:56] <annevk42> You got to love the terms all these architecture astronauts come up with. I wonder if any normal author can still follow what this is about.
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  409. # [13:59] <takkaria> I thought we had implementor consensus on <q> these days
  410. # [14:01] <jgraham> Yeah, I thought we had converged on the insane HTML4 requirements
  411. # [14:02] <annevk42> We have.
  412. # [14:04] <zcorpan> chris has still not replied about their ua style sheet
  413. # [14:04] <zcorpan> although i guess Philip` reverse engineered it anyway
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  415. # [14:11] <rubys1> re <q>, that was a result of my discussions with Steven where he claimed that the platform portions of XHTML2 had consensus. He said that what is reflected in XHTML2 was based on input from the CSS working group.
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  420. # [14:16] <rubys> @jgraham, re: "I am kindof saddened that we have resorted to "consenus" politics being more important than the technical arguments that have been made"
  421. # [14:16] <rubys> author conformance requirements are codified personal opinion.
  422. # [14:17] <annevk42> platform portions of XHTML2 had consensus with whom?
  423. # [14:17] <jgraham> rubys: Sure if you're talking about things like "should I quote my attributes"
  424. # [14:18] <annevk42> <q> has quotation marks in IE8, Safari, Firefox, Opera, Chrome, etc.
  425. # [14:18] <rubys> Apparently the change in the way the Q element was defined was done jointly between the (then) HTML working group and the CSS Working group.
  426. # [14:18] <jgraham> Not if you're talking about "can I invent new names with a colon in them"
  427. # [14:18] <annevk42> rubys, for the HTML <q> element or the XHTML2 <q> element?
  428. # [14:18] <annevk42> anyway, all user agents render quotation marks
  429. # [14:19] <annevk42> I'm fine with changing it, but I don't really see it happen
  430. # [14:19] <rubys> IE renders quotation marks?
  431. # [14:19] <annevk42> I just said so
  432. # [14:19] <rubys> wow, I thought it was otherwise
  433. # [14:20] <annevk42> IE8 supports "all" of CSS 2.1 and could therefore implement support for <q>
  434. # [14:20] <annevk42> and they did
  435. # [14:20] <annevk42> (against what HTML5 suggested at the time, but we changed HTML5 after that happened)
  436. # [14:21] <rubys> I just ran a test with IE8 and don't see the quotes.
  437. # [14:22] <rubys> ah, it was in IE7 standards mode
  438. # [14:24] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090205/mod-text.html#sec_9.8.
  439. # [14:25] <rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-q-element
  440. # [14:25] <annevk42> I know XHTML2 contradicts HTML4
  441. # [14:26] <annevk42> XHTML2 originally had a <quote> element
  442. # [14:26] <annevk42> But since their original bold design choices they're tweaking it more and more to be just like HTML4 with weird incompatible changes. See e.g. the <img> element.
  443. # [14:35] * Joins: rubys2 (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
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  451. # [14:53] <Philip`> annevk42: Something like http://philip.html5.org/data/invalid-location.txt ? (Feel free to munge it into a nicer format)
  452. # [14:54] <Philip`> zcorpan: Like http://philip.html5.org/data/ie8-quotes.txt ? It's not really reverse engineering (since I couldn't figure out where the quoting rules were stored), it's just testing a lot of possible values :-)
  453. # [14:56] <annevk42> Philip`, cool, though that doesn't tell how many pages attempted to do a redirect in total
  454. # [14:57] <Philip`> annevk42: I don't have that information, since I only got the headers that HttpClient finally returned (or the exceptions it threw instead of returning a response)
  455. # [14:57] <annevk42> ok
  456. # [14:59] <Philip`> (http://www.dotnetdotcom.org/ says about 16% of some completely different set of URLs returned a redirect status code)
  457. # [15:02] <Philip`> (Numbers a bit meaningless anyway, because e.g. half of the errors were fixed by Yahoo Maps being fixed)
  458. # [15:02] <hsivonen> perhaps <q> isn't the most important part of the blog post and Steven isn't the best source on implmentor consensus on <q>
  459. # [15:03] <annevk42> that's a bit too logical for my taste
  460. # [15:04] <gsnedders> rubys2: Tinyurls always do that
  461. # [15:07] * gsnedders needs to buy a suit… today
  462. # [15:09] <Philip`> Does it need to fit?
  463. # [15:10] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  466. # [15:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: I think a suit that doesn't fit isn't formal enough
  467. # [15:16] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: indeed. let's not all waste time discussing the exact shade of blue painted on the side of the nuclear bomb
  468. # [15:16] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  469. # [15:17] * gsnedders still wants pink with blue spots
  470. # [15:18] <Philip`> "I want to explore the idea of dropping the assumption that the current HTML working group has the sole responsibility for, and absolute dominion over, authoring guidelines." - it seems more like validator developers have absolute dominion in practice
  471. # [15:19] <Philip`> (to the same extent that browser developers have absolute dominion over e.g. parsing requirements)
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  474. # [15:20] <Dashiva> Frontpage and dreamweaver might have even more sway than validators
  475. # [15:20] * gsnedders goes crazy
  476. # [15:22] <beowulf> re: tinyurl, what about a @alt for <a> ...
  477. # [15:23] * Quits: bgalbraith_ (n=bgalbrai@c-71-202-109-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  478. # [15:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: shh! don't tell people about the absolute dominion!
  479. # [15:25] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@user146-109.wireless.utoronto.ca)
  480. # [15:25] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/jreschke/statuses/1476412112
  481. # [15:26] * Philip` agrees with jgraham about not seeing a clear distinction between platform and language features
  482. # [15:26] <Philip`> because the platform is already extensive enough that you can do pretty much anything on it
  483. # [15:27] <Philip`> e.g. you could implement <canvas> using lots of coloured <div>s, with XHR and a PNG decoder written in JS so you can implement drawImage
  484. # [15:28] <Philip`> but it's better (for performance) to move that into the platform
  485. # [15:28] <mpilgrim> don't spend too much time trying to dissect it
  486. # [15:28] <mpilgrim> it's a false dichotomy
  487. # [15:29] <mpilgrim> just a way of trying to change the subject
  488. # [15:29] <Philip`> and similarly XForms could be implemented with scripts, but that's not going to help users of ELinks or Opera Mini or NoScript or WWW::Mechanize::FormFiller
  489. # [15:29] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@user146-109.wireless.utoronto.ca) (Client Quit)
  490. # [15:32] <rubys2> *shrug* TV Raman suggested it, and a room full of people seemed to grok it
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  493. # [15:33] <Philip`> mpilgrim: I'm not sure what it's trying to change the subject away from
  494. # [15:37] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@user146-109.wireless.utoronto.ca)
  495. # [15:40] <takkaria> lots of intuitively simple distinctions turn out to be somewhat false, though
  496. # [15:40] <takkaria> or at least, not as simple as they at first seem
  497. # [15:41] <jgraham> It seems to be trying to be an attemp to create a false divison such that each group of interested parties can be told that their desires are being met by one part of the divison
  498. # [15:43] <hsivonen> jgraham++
  499. # [15:46] <Philip`> rubys2: Maybe those people weren't aware that 2D graphics has been implemented as a scripting library, or that ubiquity-xforms violates fundamental assumptions of XML (e.g. if I change the prefix from "xf" to "xf2" then it stops work entirely)
  500. # [15:48] <mpilgrim> still not the most important part
  501. # [15:48] <Philip`> (and if I create new elements through scripts then it doesn't work)
  502. # [15:49] <mpilgrim> (hint: the only sentence that matters is the one with the word "king" in it. everything else is smokescreen.)
  503. # [15:49] <Philip`> (so it's kind of an interesting hack but not an adequate substitute for a real feature)
  504. # [15:50] <Philip`> s/work/working/ a few lines ago
  505. # [15:58] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: what's your take on specs that say "foo is not allowed"?
  506. # [15:58] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  507. # [16:00] * jgraham wonders why it is made out to be a big deal whether XHTML2 and HTML5 converge or not
  508. # [16:00] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  510. # [16:02] <Dashiva> I could guess that XHTML2 failing would be bad PR for the XML world
  511. # [16:02] <Philip`> Is "Reunification" meant to refer to unification of HTML5 and XHTML2?
  512. # [16:02] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  513. # [16:03] <annevk42> Philip`, I think so, yes
  514. # [16:03] <hsivonen> Dashiva: does Sam care about bad PR for the XML world?
  515. # [16:03] <annevk42> Philip`, I'm not sure when that became a goal
  516. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> where is the word "reunification" used?
  517. # [16:04] <Philip`> MikeSmith: In the title
  518. # [16:04] <Philip`> (but nowhere else)
  519. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> which title ?
  520. # [16:04] <Philip`> MikeSmith: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/04/08/HTML-Reunification
  521. # [16:05] <Philip`> MikeSmith: That's literally hours old; surely you must have seen it already, via RSS and Planets and Twitter and IRC
  522. # [16:06] <jgraham> It is interesting that no one expects the same dynamics to apply in other fields. Like no one tries to reunify different programming languages
  523. # [16:06] <mpilgrim> Philip`: rubys2 talks about "unification" in the same way the romulans talk about it (c.f. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Unification_II_(episode) )
  524. # [16:06] <Philip`> jgraham: Sure they do
  525. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> Philip`: sorry, i was too busy having dinner and drinking with a beautiful woman
  526. # [16:06] <Philip`> jgraham: C99 and C++0x have been moving towards more commonality
  527. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> I suppose it would be judged wrong of me to say that I think this whole thing was a lost cause
  528. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> (if I were to actualy say that)
  529. # [16:07] <jgraham> MikeSmith: What whole thing?
  530. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> jgraham: the marriage of heaven and hell
  531. # [16:07] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Even if it's a lost cause we'll still continue searching for it, because it might turn up in the last place we look
  532. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> proposed marriage
  533. # [16:07] <jgraham> Philip`: In some sense C++ is supposed to be a superset of C
  534. # [16:08] <jgraham> So that makes more sense
  535. # [16:08] <Philip`> Also we might find some other interesting things that fell down the back of a cupboard while we're searching
  536. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> the heaven and hell parts being different depending on your political beliefs
  537. # [16:08] <jgraham> This is more like C and lisp unifying :)
  538. # [16:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: comparing XHTML2 to lisp seems insulting to lisp
  539. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> I'm finding that sam's blog doesn't read quite the same after consuming a full bottle of wine
  540. # [16:09] <Philip`> jgraham: C++ started that way, but changed incompatibly, and C changed too (though much less), and now both languages are evolving to remove some of the differences; similarly XHTML2 and HTML5 started from the existing (X)HTML language, and evolved differently
  541. # [16:10] <mpilgrim> i find it's much more understandable if you read it out loud in the voice of the comic book guy from the simpsons
  542. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> but I do notice the word "XForms" in there
  543. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: the difference is that people actually use C and C++. A lot.
  544. # [16:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: Perhaps jgraham should have said "Like no one tries to reunify different programming languages when one is used by a billion people and the other is used by two people"
  545. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> "Any additional features required of browsers in support for XForms would have to meet a very high bar indeed"
  546. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> emphasis on the "indeed"
  547. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> damn, hsivonen, that's quite a comment
  548. # [16:13] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Indeed, since ubiquity-xforms requires browsers to be infinitely fast so you don't get an ugly flash of not-yet-munged content appearing while the scripts load
  549. # [16:13] * mpilgrim feels a "translation from ruby-speak to english" coming on
  550. # [16:13] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  551. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> speak of the devil
  552. # [16:13] <Philip`> (Or, I suppose, browsers could implement something like XBL2)
  553. # [16:14] <Philip`> (but for text/html)
  554. # [16:14] <mpilgrim> nah, not even worth my time
  555. # [16:14] <Philip`> (though I know nothing about XBL2 except that it's the magic solution to all problems that is sometimes promoted by WHATWG people)
  556. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> rubys: we are performing hermeneutics on your blog entry
  557. # [16:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's quite a comment?
  558. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> long
  559. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> lots of words
  560. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> i think you quoted the most of the original text
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  563. # [16:16] * MikeSmith arrives at Yokohama and seat frees up so that I don't have to keep typing with one hand
  564. # [16:16] * rubys looks up "hermeneutics"
  565. # [16:17] <Philip`> Sounds like a dirty word
  566. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> I don't know that it means either. I overheard it in Vacation Bible School
  567. # [16:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it seems that it's unnecessary to repeat the code for the KEYGEN switch-case. I'll look into it carefully tomorrow. Gotta go now.
  568. # [16:18] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Definitely a dirty word, then
  569. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: wait 2 seconds
  570. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> please
  571. # [16:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  572. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=77
  573. # [16:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: on the face of it, it seems that case INPUT: case KEYGEN: /* old code */ would work
  574. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> patch for the syntax part
  575. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> when you got time
  576. # [16:19] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  577. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  578. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: anyway, no rush
  579. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> just wanted to send you links before I forget
  580. # [16:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks good.
  581. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> k
  582. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> I'll write some tests as well
  583. # [16:20] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Client Quit)
  584. # [16:21] <LeifHS> zcorpan: regarding <object> etc, what exactly does "fallback-free" mean? Where is the effect of considering object fallback-free explained?
  585. # [16:22] <Philip`> LeifHS: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dom.html#fallback-free
  586. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> wow, LeifHS on IRC
  587. # [16:23] <LeifHS> Mike, everyithing can happen ...
  588. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> LeifHS: yeah, that's what makes life worth living
  589. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> damn, 9 minutes of battery left, and 25 minutes to my destination
  590. # [16:24] <Philip`> LeifHS: More usefully: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#fallback-free and then wait a minute for everything to load and burn a load of CPU power, and then click "fallback-free" to see a list of references, which should be all its effects
  591. # [16:25] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Type slower to conserve battery power
  592. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> heh
  593. # [16:25] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  594. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> well, I got keygen patches for v.nu done today
  595. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> so I guess I can claim I've accomplisehd something
  596. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> and it's only 23:23
  597. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> usually by this time of the day, I've accomplished nothing at all
  598. # [16:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-69-212.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
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  600. # [16:31] <LeifHS> Phillip: All I see is that it is said that it is considered "fallback-free". The issue I am after is what it means if an OBJECT with EMBED is considered fallback-free. That, in my mind, means that the definition of how OBJECT works changes. But to be sure, I wanted something that told me what effeect it has.
  601. # [16:31] <LeifHS> Sorry, meant "Philip".
  602. # [16:34] <annevk42> It only means something when it is said to mean something
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  604. # [16:37] <Philip`> LeifHS: Clicking the definition to see references should show the effects - it appears to just be involved in document.nameofobjectelement
  605. # [16:38] <Philip`> (so you can't access non-fallback-free object elements via that mechanism)
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  613. # [17:02] * jgraham wonders why rubys's blog says "This comment has been blocked" if I type anything into the comment box
  614. # [17:02] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  615. # [17:02] <jgraham> Not that I had anything in particular to say but it is still quite unfriendly
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  621. # [17:11] <LeifHS> Philip, I've read the definition, but if you have external references in min, htne have not seen them.
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  624. # [17:16] <Philip`> LeifHS: It's not referred to externally from HTML5 (if that's what you mean), and the only internal references are the previous few paragraphs
  625. # [17:17] <Philip`> (and those paragraphs are describing how document.nameofobjectelement will (or will not) find the object with that name, depending on whether it's fallback-free)
  626. # [17:18] * zcorpan wonders what is being unclear
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  630. # [17:21] <LeifHS> Scripting is not my strong sidde, but how can we decide what should be available for scripting without a look at how UAs are treating OBJECT fallback as such? And the trouble is that <embed> is treated as a <source> element by Webkit (and partly by IE). In all the OBJECT-with-EMBED examples that zcorpan looked at, any markup beside EMBED will be revelealed if EMBED is revealed. Except in...
  631. # [17:21] <LeifHS> ...Webkit. See http://www.malform.no/html5/object+youtube. To make an OBJECT-with-EMBED be seen as fallback free, would - it seems to me - be to sanction the WebKit behaviour. (See the thread about interopable object in HTMLwg)
  632. # [17:22] <rubys> jgraham: weird
  633. # [17:22] <rubys> it shouldn't do that.... and obviously doesn't for others.
  634. # [17:22] <rubys> is it reproducible?
  635. # [17:24] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  636. # [17:25] * Philip` wonders if rubys's blog still puts a "submit" button directly where the "preview" button one was about to click on was located at the moment one started to click one's mouse button
  637. # [17:25] <zcorpan> LeifHS: this issue actually has nothing to do with fallback. "fallback-free" is just a term that could be chosen better
  638. # [17:26] <Philip`> rubys: I get "This comment has been blocked" as soon as I type a letter into the comment box
  639. # [17:26] <zcorpan> LeifHS: it's more like "is-intended-for-internet-explorer-and-should-not-be-visible-for-other-browsers"
  640. # [17:26] <zcorpan> LeifHS: for the purposes of document.foo lookup
  641. # [17:27] <jgraham> rubys: Yes, it is reproducable. Based on IP address?
  642. # [17:28] * Quits: annevk42 (n=annevk@53568A94.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  643. # [17:28] * jgraham has no way to verify the IP address thing
  644. # [17:31] <jgraham> Oh, I didn't notice that Philip` had the same problem
  645. # [17:33] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@user146-109.wireless.utoronto.ca)
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  647. # [17:36] <annevk5> LeifHS, <embed> _is_ exactly like <img>, <br>, <source>, etc. in all browsers
  648. # [17:36] <LeifHS> sorry - bye for now. L
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  654. # [17:46] <zcorpan> it seems the xml core wg are unaware of google existing
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  670. # [18:24] <Philip`> zcorpan: I thought Google was the cause of XML's failure on the web, because AdSense relies on document.write and their business model would be destroyed by XHTML - surely the WG can't be unaware of such facts
  671. # [18:27] <zcorpan> Philip`: if they are aware of google, then they don't seem to know that people use google rather than going to w3.org to find out what <?xml-model?> does upon finding it in view source
  672. # [18:28] <zcorpan> actually "xml-model" is probably not the best name because it gives unrelated results in google
  673. # [18:29] * Joins: onar (n=onar@17.226.23.135)
  674. # [18:29] <Philip`> Maybe they think Google will point users at the relevant page on w3.org
  675. # [18:30] <Philip`> in which case somebody could tell them about w3schools.com's pagerank
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  679. # [18:44] <rubys> jgraham, Philip`: I believe I've isolated the problem, and disabled that check for now until I can correct it.
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  687. # [19:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: rows=",86" is treated like rows="1,86"
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  689. # [19:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: not "1*,86"?
  690. # [19:37] <rubys> jgraham, Philip: I believe I've fixed the problem. My code was comparing GMT time to local times and falsely concluded that there was a DOS attack in progress.
  691. # [19:37] <Hixie> zcorpan: er yes, sorry
  692. # [19:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok, then that's good
  693. # [19:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks for speccing out framesets
  694. # [19:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: it has already saved us the work of reverse engineering ie :)
  695. # [19:40] <zcorpan> s/the/some/
  696. # [19:44] <Hixie> :-)
  697. # [19:44] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  698. # [19:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: When are you planning on doing ref now?
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  701. # [19:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: As for RelaxNG/XSD, AFAIK lxml has built-in support for XSD but not RelaxNG
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  706. # [20:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: Like http://www.xml.com/cs/user/view/cs_msg/2576 ?
  707. # [20:07] <Hixie> gsnedders: ref?
  708. # [20:07] * gsnedders is n00b'd
  709. # [20:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: references
  710. # [20:07] <Hixie> gsnedders: august
  711. # [20:08] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-6c27d0325e9321ef) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  712. # [20:08] * Philip` makes an evidence-free assumption that that feature wasn't removed from lxml
  713. # [20:08] <Philip`> (libxml2 definitely supports RelaxNG, though)
  714. # [20:14] <gsnedders> I know that libxml2 does :P
  715. # [20:15] * Philip` decides that offering to proofread someone's PhD dissertation may not have been the most effort-saving thing to do
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  718. # [20:22] * Philip` is now up to page 94
  719. # [20:22] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  720. # [20:27] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/xforms/example-xf.html vs http://philip.html5.org/demos/xforms/example-xf2.html
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  736. # [21:34] <hsivonen> http://webbackplane.com/node/47
  737. # [21:35] <gmiernicki> shouldnt the video on that page be in <video> as a theora .ogg?
  738. # [21:35] <Philip`> No, it should be a transcript
  739. # [21:35] <gmiernicki> some of us don't install flash ;D
  740. # [21:37] <hsivonen> gmiernicki: the publisher isn't an HTML5 proponent
  741. # [21:37] <Philip`> Some of us install Flash but only so that it works in Firefox 2 and not a browser which said person regularly uses, because it tends to crash in Opera
  742. # [21:38] <smedero> the publisher apparently isn't interested in anyone hearing that video either.
  743. # [21:38] <Philip`> (and said person hasn't figured out how to make the plugin work in his copy of Firefox 3)
  744. # [21:38] <smedero> i've got the volume jacked up to eleven... and I can barely make out portions of it
  745. # [21:40] <hsivonen> available in another encumbered format at http://blip.tv/file/897562/
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  749. # [21:42] <Philip`> Does anyone have a pointer to a script library that implements RDFa in a browser?
  750. # [21:43] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/ - oh, that
  751. # [21:43] <smedero> perhaps http://code.google.com/p/rdfquery/
  752. # [21:44] <smedero> http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/94 seems to describe the project better than the google project page does
  753. # [21:48] <hsivonen> what's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2009Apr/att-0001/1193.htm about?
  754. # [21:49] <hsivonen> did the ISO committee decide to do shemaLocation as PI?
  755. # [21:49] <hsivonen> *schemaLocation
  756. # [21:49] <hsivonen> despite RNG not having it by design
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  759. # [22:08] <inimino> so is this HTML Reunification post suggesting that libraries will implement namespace support in JavaScript?
  760. # [22:08] * Joins: adambeynon (n=adambeyn@94-194-177-54.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  761. # [22:08] <inimino> including looking for and handling xmlns attributes?
  762. # [22:08] <hsivonen> inimino: so it seems
  763. # [22:09] <inimino> wow
  764. # [22:09] <Hixie> wait what? that's the most ridiculous thing i've heard all day. Who suggested that?
  765. # [22:10] <inimino> I'm trying to make sense of the paragraph that contains " Since HTML parsers are unaware of xmlns attributes, it is entirely too dangerous to encourage the use of default namespaces in conformant HTML."
  766. # [22:10] <inimino> that's the only interpretation I've considered that makes that make any sense, but I'm probably misunderstanding the whole post
  767. # [22:11] <Hixie> what does that even mean
  768. # [22:11] <Hixie> who wrote this? is this a lastweek crazy post or something?
  769. # [22:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/04/08/HTML-Reunification#c1239205696
  770. # [22:12] <inimino> "libraries that operate on the resulting DOM will consistently evaluate namespaces after the reparenting operation."
  771. # [22:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: Mr. Last Week homed in on the crux of Sam's post: the gatekeeper and king maker sentence
  772. # [22:12] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@17.203.15.161)
  773. # [22:12] <inimino> as far as I can tell, the idea as that we can shoe-horn in distributed extensibility by just treating names with colons transparently
  774. # [22:13] <Hixie> oh, it's a blog post
  775. # [22:13] <Hixie> comment i mean
  776. # [22:13] <inimino> and then I guess the idea is that JS libraries will implement something like Namespaces in XML at a layer above that
  777. # [22:13] <Hixie> sam gets lots of people commenting crazy stuff on his blog, i wouldn't pay much attention to them
  778. # [22:14] <Hixie> (i didn't look to see who wrote the comment)
  779. # [22:14] <rubys1> that would be Sam.
  780. # [22:14] <inimino> it's not a comment, it's it Sam's post
  781. # [22:14] <inimino> s/it/in/
  782. # [22:14] <Hixie> oh
  783. # [22:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: gatekeeper and king maker?
  784. # [22:16] <rubys1> Mr. Last Week homed into what MarkP views as the crux of the post.
  785. # [22:17] <Hixie> did mark blog also?
  786. # [22:17] <Hixie> man i really need to start reading blogs again
  787. # [22:17] <rubys1> mark showed up in IRC.
  788. # [22:17] <Hixie> oh
  789. # [22:17] <Hixie> i had assumed he was talking about lastweek too
  790. # [22:17] <Hixie> d'oh
  791. # [22:18] <smedero> see: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090408#l-502
  792. # [22:18] <hsivonen> rubys1: fwiw, I agree with markp on what the crux was but opted to focus on the DOM consistency thing in my comments
  793. # [22:18] * rubys1 happens to think that author conformance requirements is the crux, as I stated up front, but go figure.
  794. # [22:18] * Hixie sighs and goes to read sam's blog
  795. # [22:19] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-29.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  796. # [22:21] <Hixie> it's probably a bad sign that i don't understand what you're saying
  797. # [22:22] <Hixie> though it's news to me that the HTML WG has any power of "which features are permissible and which are not in the open web"
  798. # [22:22] * Joins: aroben__ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  799. # [22:22] <Hixie> i mean, the html5 and the whatwg is a pretty good example of how that's not true
  800. # [22:22] <gsnedders> But the evil cabal must live on!
  801. # [22:22] <hsivonen> rubys1: don't authoring conformance reqs count as gatekeeping?
  802. # [22:23] <Hixie> rdfa is another great example -- there are people, including sites like myspace, using it quite happily in html
  803. # [22:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: including w3.org!
  804. # [22:23] <Hixie> exactly
  805. # [22:23] <Hixie> anyway
  806. # [22:24] <Hixie> the rdfa discussion will be resolved in a matter of weeks
  807. # [22:24] <Hixie> it's been on the calendar for april for months
  808. # [22:24] <Hixie> and i don't understand the rest of the post!
  809. # [22:24] <Hixie> so...
  810. # [22:24] <Philip`> Depends on your definition of "resolved"
  811. # [22:24] <tantek> Hixie, html5/whatwg and microformats was just the start. now there's a whole Open Web Foundation that is "is an independent non-profit dedicated to the development and protection of open, non-proprietary specifications for web technologies." http://openwebfoundation.org/
  812. # [22:24] * Hixie goes back to trying to get <datagrid> fixed
  813. # [22:24] <Hixie> tantek: indeed
  814. # [22:25] <gsnedders> As opposed to the Web Foundation?
  815. # [22:25] <Hixie> Philip`: "To make a firm decision about"
  816. # [22:25] <Hixie> Philip`: "To find a solution to"
  817. # [22:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: still trying to make <datagrid> a huge replaced element instead of shipping a MIT-licensed JS lib implemented on top of <table> & ARIA?
  818. # [22:28] <Hixie> yes
  819. # [22:28] <Hixie> except not "huge"
  820. # [22:28] <Hixie> :-)
  821. # [22:28] <Philip`> Hixie: Depends on whether your definition of "resolved" means just from your perspective, or from the perspective of the HTML WG and the people who will disagree with your decision and won't let the matter be closed
  822. # [22:29] <Hixie> Philip`: i mean from the perspective of the WHATWG, since this is #whatwg. It's still not clear to me how things are resolved in the HTMLWG.
  823. # [22:31] <Philip`> Most IRC discussion about the HTML WG occurs in here, so it's good to clarify which is meant :-)
  824. # [22:32] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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  826. # [22:32] <Hixie> Philip`: granted :-)
  827. # [22:32] <hsivonen> fwiw, the comment thread branches into http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/04/DOM-Consistency
  828. # [22:33] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-176-4.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  829. # [22:33] <smedero> rubys1: "I’d like to retain intact the design principles (link to http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/) for platform design as worked out by the browser vendors." Perhaps I'm being nitpicky but FWIW, I thought these were worked out by the HTML WG as a whole in April 2007 and WG consensus to publish them was polled in Nov 2007.
  830. # [22:34] * aroben__ is now known as aroben
  831. # [22:34] * Quits: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
  832. # [22:34] <rubys1> smedero: that's a fair point
  833. # [22:36] <rubys1> refresh
  834. # [22:36] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  835. # [22:37] <smedero> ahh, good
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  837. # [22:38] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
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  841. # [22:58] * gsnedders stabs Google Books
  842. # [22:58] * gsnedders wants to see page 215 of urn:isbn:9780520220805
  843. # [23:03] <Hixie> buy it
  844. # [23:03] <Hixie> :-)
  845. # [23:03] <jcranmer> meh, torrents are easier
  846. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: I made the mistake of going to not one, but three book stores today. I think I have too much already. :)
  847. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: Also, I need it just to check reference from secondary source, so I'm just going to reference the secondary source instead :P
  848. # [23:04] <Hixie> heh
  849. # [23:05] <gsnedders> (Basically it contains Nabokov saying in a letter he's working on something called, "The Kingdom by the Sea" — it would later become "Lolita".)
  850. # [23:05] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  851. # [23:05] <gsnedders> (The original title is a reference to Poe's "Annabel Lee".)
  852. # [23:06] * gsnedders goes back to working on his English dissertation
  853. # [23:06] * gsnedders sighs
  854. # [23:13] * gsnedders tries to make sense of his English teachers scribbling on his draft
  855. # [23:13] <gsnedders> This would be simpler if it weren't for the fact that he often ended up scribbling down things about what we had ended up tangentially discussed and thus aren't entirely obviously related.
  856. # [23:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: Can't you just cite Wikipedia? It saves a lot of this bother
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  858. # [23:27] <Hixie> blog admins, i changed from wp-cache to wp-super-cache and added wp-spamfree
  859. # [23:27] <Hixie> let me know if it breaks anything
  860. # [23:27] <Dashiva> wp-ultra-cache coming next fall
  861. # [23:32] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  866. # Session Close: Thu Apr 09 00:00:00 2009

The end :)