/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 14 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:23] <annevk2> annevk2? hmm I thought I tunred my laptop at home off...
  9. # [00:23] <annevk2> oh, annevk5 then
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  11. # [00:24] <annevk5> hmm ok, so I was connected to both freenode.net and .org at the same time from the same laptop
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  26. # [01:59] <heycam`> Hixie, thanks
  27. # [01:59] * heycam` is now known as heycam
  28. # [02:09] <sayrer> "just" use BEEP
  29. # [02:09] <sayrer> lol wut
  30. # [02:10] <Hixie> if the beep advocates can write a DOM API spec for BEEP, adapt BEEP to work in the browser same-origin security model, and convince browser vendors to implement it, I have no objections to it
  31. # [02:10] <Hixie> but i think it would still be good to have a simple protocol like websocket as well :-)
  32. # [02:11] <Hixie> (not necessarily websocket itself)
  33. # [02:11] <sayrer> yeah, that's basically my issue with the entire discussion
  34. # [02:12] <sayrer> I almost wrote a message asking maciej whether WebSocket prevented the design he was adovocating
  35. # [02:13] <Hixie> i figure we can add an optional second argument to the constructor, and have that be part of the handshake -- and if the server doesn't send back the same string, abort with a suitable error code.
  36. # [02:13] <Hixie> WebSocket-Subprotocol: or something
  37. # [02:13] <Hixie> maybe we can even get the IANA to give us a registry for subprotocol types
  38. # [02:13] <sayrer> I think rfc3117 is my favorite
  39. # [02:14] <sayrer> until it goes off into BEEP land
  40. # [02:14] <sayrer> it's like the finale of battlestar galactica
  41. # [02:14] <doublec> no spoilers please...
  42. # [02:14] <doublec> :)
  43. # [02:15] <doublec> for those of us in way behind tv land
  44. # [02:15] <doublec> i'll forever be anticipating rfc3117 references in msg now
  45. # [02:15] <doublec> s/msg/bsg
  46. # [02:16] <sayrer> fortunately there is nothing overt!
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  48. # [02:16] <doublec> hehe
  49. # [02:17] <sayrer> mmm, this hybi list is intensely unproductive
  50. # [02:17] <sayrer> amazing
  51. # [02:17] <sayrer> I just don't get it
  52. # [02:18] <sayrer> 1) solve the smallest problem you possibly can
  53. # [02:18] <sayrer> 2) declare victory
  54. # [02:18] <sayrer> 3) ???
  55. # [02:18] <sayrer> 4) Profit!
  56. # [02:18] <sayrer> why do anything else?
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  58. # [02:21] <Hixie> sayrer: a lot of the people on that list are already on step 4 and are wondering why we are talking about changing their steps 1 and 2
  59. # [02:22] <sayrer> Hixie, are you being sympathetic to me or them?
  60. # [02:22] <Hixie> neither :-)
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  62. # [02:23] <Hixie> i believe that a lot of the pushback we're getting is because there is already a thriving business around these involved protocols
  63. # [02:23] <sayrer> good point
  64. # [02:23] <sayrer> maybe we should ask for a new WG
  65. # [02:25] <sayrer> "The good thing about reinventing the wheel is that you can get a round one."
  66. # [02:25] <sayrer> I rather like that quote
  67. # [02:26] <sayrer> and it was about XML vs JSON
  68. # [02:26] <Hixie> i'm reading rfc3117 again -- it feels like when you hit section 3.4 it suddenly goes from being a useful overview of the state of affairs to being an exercise in second system syndrome.
  69. # [02:28] <sayrer> yeah
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  71. # [02:34] <sayrer> but it's great because it is 8 years old and still a useful overview
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  188. # [10:09] * annevk5 joins the hybi discussion but isn't sure he should've done so
  189. # [10:10] * annevk5 wonders what http://twitter.com/kevinwhinnery/statuses/1511868625 is about
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  193. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, I noticed the sub/sup case also
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  195. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: dealing with those actually turns out to be a major PITA
  196. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> at least for someone like me with limited coding skills
  197. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> but I messed around with it again today and have a fix
  198. # [10:22] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the spec should be less human readable and be easier to scrape
  199. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> he
  200. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> heh
  201. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> yeah
  202. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie: please optimize the script for scraping!
  203. # [10:22] * jgraham sees reams of hiby discussion, hopes that it is not too interesting
  204. # [10:23] <jgraham> s/hiby/hybi/
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  206. # [10:23] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you can look for <dl class="element"> and its previous element sibling
  207. # [10:23] <zcorpan> s/element/heading element/
  208. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> I could, but it'd mean more rewriting and testing to make sure I didn't break stuff
  209. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: it would be slightly easier if Hixie consistently used id=the-foo-element for all element h4s
  210. # [10:24] <annevk5> jgraham, it seems mostly about bidirectional HTTP / BEEP vs something close but not quite raw TCP sockets
  211. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: though that wouldn't work for h1-h6 or sub/sup case
  212. # [10:25] <annevk5> jgraham, obviously these two are pretty far apart so the discussion isn't really going anywhere
  213. # [10:27] <jgraham> annevk5: Oh. Well I guess it is safe to ignore for a while at least then
  214. # [10:41] <annevk5> http://twitpic.com/3aqou
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  216. # [10:50] <annevk5> http://decafbad.com/blog/2009/04/13/i-like-revcanonical so besides that we're trying to remove rev, isn't canonical meant to be same-origin?
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  227. # [11:16] <hsivonen_> annevk5: is this rev=canonical different from Google/Y!/MS rel=canonical?
  228. # [11:17] <hsivonen_> magic 8 ball says Web authors won't be able to use the distinction of rel and rev right here
  229. # [11:17] <annevk5> it is
  230. # [11:18] <annevk5> something like rel=shorturl would be better I think
  231. # [11:19] <hsivonen_> I can imagine all sorts of blog posts about evil HTML5 raining on the rev=canonical backpattery parade
  232. # [11:19] <svl> Mostly (from what I've seen) it's been "let's all use this en-masse, so html5 will be forced to include this".
  233. # [11:20] <annevk5> there's that too, but mostly using it just doesn't really add up
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  236. # [11:20] <annevk5> canonical is for resource equivalence, not URL-after-redirect equivalence; canonical also has a same-origin restriction
  237. # [11:21] <hsivonen_> the tinyurl centralization problem would be mostly solved if twitter just showed the real URLs in tweets on every medium except the ephemeral SMSs
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  240. # [11:32] <Philip`> I've seen quite a few people starting to use TinyURL in blog comments and blog posts and other places where it's completely unnecessary
  241. # [11:35] <annevk5> i blogged about rev=canonical; lets see if someone picks it up
  242. # [11:35] <annevk5> maybe in a few years all standards will be made through blogging
  243. # [11:36] * hsivonen_ mumbles about feed autodiscovery
  244. # [11:36] <annevk5> true that :)
  245. # [11:37] <annevk5> would be nice if rel=feed got some more impl love
  246. # [11:38] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  247. # [11:42] <annevk5> rel=canonical too btw
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  249. # [11:43] <annevk5> there's also http://revcanonical.appspot.com/
  250. # [11:44] <annevk5> and apparently someone added "short" to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
  251. # [11:49] <hsivonen_> why am I not seeing the standards suck guy in Minefield on Anne's blog?
  252. # [11:52] <annevk5> does Minefield support SVG referenced from 'content'?
  253. # [12:06] <annevk5> heycam, FYI, empty string is fine for ID because an empty ID cannot exist
  254. # [12:07] <heycam> annevk5, fine with me, was just looking for it being defined one way or the other
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  256. # [12:12] <annevk5> heycam, yeah, weird omission (it's defined for all other DOMString reflecting thingies)
  257. # [12:22] * Philip` sees http://o-micron.blogspot.com/ (with some storage-related stuff)
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  260. # [12:23] <annevk5> that's from the Oracle guy who's in favor of something like Atom for storage, no?
  261. # [12:26] <Philip`> Looks like it probably is
  262. # [12:26] <hsivonen_> annevk5: I don't know if Minefield is supposed to support SVG in CSS 'content'
  263. # [12:27] <hsivonen_> looks like the XHTML2 WG rep used the wrong name for their WG: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2009AprJun/0037.html
  264. # [12:27] <annevk5> they call themselves the XHTML WG quite often
  265. # [12:27] <annevk5> and call us the HTML5 WG
  266. # [12:28] <annevk5> "us" being the HTML WG, not the WHATWG
  267. # [12:28] <annevk5> whenever that happens I wonder if it's on purpose
  268. # [12:29] <jgraham> I always assume that it is on purpose
  269. # [12:30] <annevk5> outside the W3C it's often referred to as the HTML5 WG as well
  270. # [12:31] <Philip`> Maybe it's to disambiguate from the old HTML WG
  271. # [12:33] <jgraham> Somebody should teach the Oracle guy the golden rule of academic qualifications, which is that you should never, ever put them after your name
  272. # [12:33] <Philip`> What about putting them before your name?
  273. # [12:33] * jgraham was waiting for that
  274. # [12:34] <Philip`> Or in the middle of your name?
  275. # [12:34] <Philip`> John "Dr" Smith, etc
  276. # [12:35] <jgraham> Philip`: At least nobody can be expected to take those things seriously
  277. # [12:35] <Philip`> What if you skip the name entirely and just call yourself Doctor?
  278. # [12:35] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
  279. # [12:35] <jgraham> Although they have roughly the same effect of making you look like a right twat
  280. # [12:36] <jgraham> Philip`: Only works if you are a time lord
  281. # [12:38] * hsivonen assumes that "some browsers" in ARIA is an euphemism for IE
  282. # [12:39] <annevk5> yeah...
  283. # [12:41] <annevk5> hsivonen, thanks for replying to that XHTML2 WG comment btw
  284. # [12:41] <annevk5> I was wondering whether I should do it
  285. # [12:42] <hsivonen> annevk5: I almost wrote feedback about the same spec sentence before seeing the XHTML2 WG comment.
  286. # [12:43] <hsivonen> the name "ARIA Best Practices" irks me. ARIA is so new, I don't believe Best Practices have emerged yet
  287. # [12:43] <hsivonen> should be Authoring Guide or something like that
  288. # [12:44] <hsivonen> Best Practices and Guidelines are weasel words in general
  289. # [12:44] <annevk5> if it ever gets widely adopted :/
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  298. # [13:22] <zcorpan> what's focal locus?
  299. # [13:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the point of focus?
  300. # [13:29] <virtuelv> "In mathematics, a locus (Latin for "place", plural loci) is a collection of points which share a property. "
  301. # [13:30] <virtuelv> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_(mathematics)
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  304. # [13:55] * hsivonen has 63 public-pfwg-comments autoreplies
  305. # [14:15] <annevk5> I complained about that and was told it was a special list :/
  306. # [14:16] <jgraham> The pfwg list is insane. I can only imagine that the point of it is to deter comments on the spec
  307. # [14:17] * annevk5 has to run
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  315. # [14:55] <remysharp> A question about <article> - I've seen in examples that <article> is nested within a <section> - but the page I put together goes as: <article><section> - is there any specific reason I might be wrong, or is it actually down to content layout?
  316. # [14:56] <jgraham> remysharp: That is good and more likely sounding than the other way around
  317. # [14:57] <remysharp> sorry - just to be clear are you saying that it *should* be <article><section> then?
  318. # [14:58] <jgraham> e.g. <article><h1>A Celebrity Did Something</h1><section><h2>Summary</h2></section><section><h2>So civilization will end</h2></section></article>
  319. # [14:58] <remysharp> perfect - that's what I understood the spec to mean.
  320. # [14:58] <remysharp> cheers for that.
  321. # [14:59] <jgraham> remysharp: Neither way is "right" it's just more obvious why an article would have multiple <section>s than a <section> would have multiple articles
  322. # [15:00] <jgraham> (an example of the latter could be <body><h1>The News</h1><section><h2>Celebrity News</h2><article><h3>A Celebrity Did Something</h3>[...]
  323. # [15:01] <remysharp> Aye, sure. that makes sense, and that's what I understood.
  324. # [15:01] <remysharp> I've just come across quite a few examples that used the article for smaller chunks, and I wasn't completely clear why (when they may have been related to later chunks of content).
  325. # [15:03] <jgraham> remysharp: The wwonderful thing about sematics is that there are so many of them to choose from
  326. # [15:09] <remysharp> jgraham: agreed - thanks again for the advice.
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  333. # [15:41] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  406. # [21:27] <annevk5> http://www.mnot.net/blog/2009/04/14/rev_canonical_bad is a slightly better explanation of the rev=canonical problem
  407. # [21:29] <annevk5> I think I agree with rubys that it would be good to indicate in HTML5 which attributes and elements are obsolete (they're not deprecated). But I also thought that it was planned already. Anybody who knows?
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  413. # [21:51] <Hixie> annevk5: anything that isn't in html5 is obsolete
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  417. # [22:06] <Philip`> Hixie: That seems to unhelpfully ignore the distinction between things that used to have some meaning in HTML and are not in HTML5, and things that have never had any meaning at all in HTML
  418. # [22:06] <Philip`> (e.g. <link rev> vs <link wlkthglkrh>)
  419. # [22:06] <Hixie> not sure why that distinction is needed
  420. # [22:07] <Philip`> People will see <link rev> being used somewhere, then look in the latest HTML spec to see what it is, and encounter a complete absence of information, which is less helpful to them than a note that it was defined in some other spec and has been omitted for whatever reasons
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  422. # [22:11] <Hixie> *shrug*
  423. # [22:11] <Hixie> if someone wants to make a list of features that should have such notes, file a bug and i'll add it somewhere
  424. # [22:11] <Philip`> (Even people who fully understand the HTML5 process won't be able to deduce that <link rev> was omitted from HTML5 when they fail to find any references to it, since it might just be that they're searching in the wrong section)
  425. # [22:12] <Philip`> (or they might be using Opera which seems to have bugs in its search feature that make it miss things in the spec)
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  428. # [22:18] <tantek> Hixie, HTML 4.0 has the notion/label of "Obsolete" for features that have been outright dropped from the previous version 3.2 (in contrast to "Deprecated", meaning, still supported but discouraged).
  429. # [22:18] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/appendix/changes.html#h-A.3
  430. # [22:19] <Hixie> like I said, I don't mind listing some obsolete features if people want. There's already some level of that in the "downplayed errors" list
  431. # [22:20] <tantek> It may be reasonable for HTML4 to have a similar "changes from HTML4.01" section with a list of such "Obsolete" elements and attributes, optionally with a short description or link to why it was dropped etc.
  432. # [22:20] <tantek> er, reasonable for HTML5 to have a similar ... section
  433. # [22:21] <tantek> Hixie, as we're tangentially on the rev subject, do you have a canonical post somewhere with the summary of the poor usability in practice of the "rev" attribute?
  434. # [22:21] <tantek> The best I've written up so far is: http://microformats.org/wiki/rev#Should_rev_even_be_used
  435. # [22:22] <tantek> which cites your http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/linkrels.html
  436. # [22:22] <tantek> anything newer/better?
  437. # [22:23] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/link-rel-rev.txt has some newer data
  438. # [22:23] <Hixie> i don't think i have written anything up other than mails to the whatwg list
  439. # [22:25] <tantek> I particularly like <link rev="1.02" ...>
  440. # [22:25] <tantek> (from Philip`s URL)
  441. # [22:25] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  442. # [22:26] <tantek> at least vote-links show up in Philip`s data ("vote-for", "vote-against", "vote-abstain")
  443. # [22:27] <sayrer> 2 <link rev="argonet" ...>
  444. # [22:27] <sayrer> weird
  445. # [22:27] <sayrer> 1 <link rev="D. Bailey Management" ...>
  446. # [22:29] <Hixie> the long tail of markup oddities is very long on the web
  447. # [22:29] <Hixie> very
  448. # [22:29] <Hixie> very
  449. # [22:29] <Hixie> long
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  451. # [22:33] <tantek> Thanks Philip`. I've added that URL to http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#Should_rev_even_be_used
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  456. # [22:47] <takkaria> argonet? heh, I wonder how that ende up there
  457. # [22:50] <Philip`> http://www.comune.barzago.lc.it/ - <link rev="argonet" href="http://www.argonet.it/" title="Sviluppato da Argonet: comunicazione, web design, consulenza e sviluppo.">
  458. # [22:51] <Philip`> http://www.comune.tremenico.lc.it/ too
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The end :)