/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> (Anyway I think the regexp is about right)
  4. # [00:00] <mpilgrim> tourismcapetown appears to be a typo / misunderstanding that happens to match rel=feed by accident
  5. # [00:00] <mpilgrim> same with sevillagrande.com
  6. # [00:00] <sayrer> oh that's weird
  7. # [00:00] <sayrer> the ESPN ones are Apple <pcast> documents
  8. # [00:01] <mpilgrim> honk. snort.
  9. # [00:01] <mpilgrim> i don't think those are within our scope
  10. # [00:01] <mpilgrim> ...yet
  11. # [00:01] <sayrer> yeah...
  12. # [00:02] <mpilgrim> if this is all the data we have, i'm going to send an email to the list recommending dropping rel=feed
  13. # [00:02] <Philip`> You could recommend getting more data
  14. # [00:03] <sayrer> I would be willing to turn it off in a beta
  15. # [00:03] <mpilgrim> i could
  16. # [00:03] <Philip`> There's non-zero usage of feed, so maybe there's still non-zero usage of feed without alternate, but my sample is far too small to find it :-p
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  18. # [00:03] <sayrer> it doesn't seem to generate bug reports, so the cost seems low
  19. # [00:03] <mpilgrim> i could dust off some of hixie's mapreduce code and query against a larger sample
  20. # [00:04] <mpilgrim> sayrer: ok
  21. # [00:04] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  22. # [00:04] * Philip` would like it if dotnetdotcom.org's data was more accessible (e.g. via EC2) so he could search more pages easily
  23. # [00:04] <annevk2> it looks a whole lot neater than all the cruft you need now, but I guess that's not sufficient
  24. # [00:05] <mpilgrim> annevk2: i'd say that was sufficient in 2005 to propose it
  25. # [00:05] <sayrer> yeah, worth a try, but IE and Firefox match on most other things
  26. # [00:05] <mpilgrim> but implementation has been... minimal
  27. # [00:05] <sayrer> so I can see how authors arrived somewhere else
  28. # [00:06] <sayrer> especially in a world with lower mac market share and no google browser
  29. # [00:06] <mpilgrim> we've cut larger features ;)
  30. # [00:06] <mpilgrim> based on non-implementation
  31. # [00:06] <mpilgrim> or near-zero implementation
  32. # [00:06] <annevk2> some of those we retain as well
  33. # [00:06] <mpilgrim> (no offense to sayrer's work)
  34. # [00:06] <sayrer> i think maybe philor heckled me
  35. # [00:06] <mpilgrim> lol
  36. # [00:07] <sayrer> or it was a way to short circuit autodiscovery
  37. # [00:07] <sayrer> er, sniffing
  38. # [00:07] <annevk2> i.e. <datagrid>, <menu>
  39. # [00:07] <sayrer> did datagrid get cut?
  40. # [00:07] <mpilgrim> annevk2: but it's not a new feature, it's a reformulation of an existing feature
  41. # [00:07] <annevk2> true
  42. # [00:08] <mpilgrim> into a form that virtually no one supports
  43. # [00:08] <annevk2> sayrer, no(t yet)
  44. # [00:08] <mpilgrim> when there's an existing form that virtually everyone supports
  45. # [00:08] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  46. # [00:09] <mpilgrim> IIRC, rel=alternate type=application(atom|rss)+xml links were present in 17% of all pages on the internet
  47. # [00:09] <mpilgrim> in 2005
  48. # [00:09] <mpilgrim> but i'd have to check with hixie on that
  49. # [00:10] <sayrer> things that generate feeds are probably generate lots of pages
  50. # [00:10] <sayrer> er, no "are" needed
  51. # [00:10] <mpilgrim> (actually in 2005, it was probably all rss ;) )
  52. # [00:10] <mpilgrim> true
  53. # [00:11] <sayrer> mpilgrim, did you see what your site did to AT&T?
  54. # [00:11] <mpilgrim> i wonder if i can do a mapreduce against the (pick a large number) most popular home pages
  55. # [00:11] <mpilgrim> sayrer: no
  56. # [00:11] <mpilgrim> reference?
  57. # [00:11] <sayrer> I had a chuckle, because that was a one of the old examples of broken RSS, and I thought it meant "Accessibility Technology" until I clicked
  58. # [00:12] <Philip`> I see type="application/(atom|rss)+xml" on 9942 out of ~130K pages on dmoz.org
  59. # [00:12] <sayrer> mpilgrim, you have that page that shows all of your internet activity
  60. # [00:12] <sayrer> it was on there
  61. # [00:12] <mpilgrim> ah
  62. # [00:12] <mpilgrim> yeah
  63. # [00:12] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-d39a897a1dec257a)
  64. # [00:12] <mpilgrim> that's a bug
  65. # [00:12] <mpilgrim> i should fix that
  66. # [00:12] <sayrer> yeah, it's just funny that we still have it
  67. # [00:13] <Philip`> (2674 with atom, 9822 with rss)
  68. # [00:13] <sayrer> clearly ampersands are broken tech
  69. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> philip`: that's about 7%
  70. # [00:13] <Philip`> (But this data is a bit rubbish because it's all skewed by things like Wikipedia)
  71. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> damn, that whole firehose page is a complete hack
  72. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> yeah
  73. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> that's why i want to query just home pages
  74. # [00:13] <sayrer> the microformats religion supports that theory
  75. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> surely we can do that
  76. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> we're google
  77. # [00:14] <sayrer> if IE implements an HTML5ish parser, maybe that will work
  78. # [00:15] * mpilgrim wanders off in search of food
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  86. # [00:56] <Rik`> in what element should meta information about a blog post go (dates, tags, author name, number of comments, stuff like that) ? nav, aside, anything else ?
  87. # [00:57] <Hixie> <p>
  88. # [00:59] <sayrer> surely dates should go in <time>
  89. # [01:00] <Hixie> should? no. may, sure.
  90. # [01:00] <Rik`> sayrer: of course, I was just talking about the "meta block", not the individual elements inside
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  92. # [01:00] <Hixie> <footer> is probably the right element for most of the stuff that nobody cares about
  93. # [01:00] <sayrer> oh, good luck with your meta block
  94. # [01:01] <Rik`> Hixie: so <aside> is better suited for footnotes maybe ?
  95. # [01:01] <Hixie> <aside> is for, well, asides. sidebars. side notes. footnotes too, though they wouldn't be actual footnotes if they were in an <aside>.
  96. # [01:02] <Rik`> ok thanks
  97. # [01:04] <Rik`> i bet will see a lot of different use for those new sectioning elements
  98. # [01:04] <sayrer> I wonder if they are meta crap
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  117. # [02:39] <Hixie> i mentioned the address hedral@damowmow.com on the html5 spec in december last year
  118. # [02:39] <Hixie> it's received hundreds of e-mails of spam
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  228. # [11:24] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  248. # [13:32] * gsnedders wonders who Bibbi Svärd is
  249. # [13:33] * jgraham wonders how to most usefully answer that question
  250. # [13:33] <jgraham> She is the HR person and general enabler of all things in Sweden
  251. # [13:33] <gsnedders> Ah
  252. # [13:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: Is she evil?
  253. # [13:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
  254. # [13:34] <gsnedders> That's good then.
  255. # [13:34] <jgraham> In other news: I value my job ;)
  256. # [13:34] <gsnedders> :)
  257. # [13:35] <jgraham> (but seriously Bibbi is pretty wonderful)
  258. # [13:35] * gsnedders heads off to lunch, and ponders the prospect of his third ever interview
  259. # [13:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: Phone interview? Or f2f?
  260. # [13:40] * Philip` thinks interviews should all be conducted on IRC
  261. # [13:43] <mpt> That would be much less useful for the interviewer
  262. # [13:44] <mpt> Er ... don't mind me, it's Friday and my sense of humor has gone on holiday
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  265. # [13:46] <jgraham> mpt: I hope it has gone somewhere nice. My sense of humor once spent two weeks in a caravan in North Wales and it rained every day. On the upside, it was happy to come home.
  266. # [13:47] <mpt> So you ended up with a wealth of sheep jokes?
  267. # [13:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, does this mean you'll be doing your internship in the Swedish office if you get accepted?
  268. # [14:06] <jcranmer> Sveden
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  281. # [15:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Phone
  282. # [15:09] <gsnedders> Lachy: I assume so
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  288. # [15:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: Cool
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  314. # [17:16] <kanchan_Tripathi> hi, can anyone tell me why this simple POST via telnet is'nt working
  315. # [17:17] <kanchan_Tripathi> http://pastebin.com/d36e8e302
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  319. # [17:20] <Philip`> Maybe it needs "Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded"?
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  322. # [17:22] <Philip`> kanchan_Tripathi: Maybe it needs "Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded"?
  323. # [17:23] <kanchan_Tripathi> Philip can you elaborate it.
  324. # [17:24] <Philip`> kanchan_Tripathi: You might need to include that header in your telnet POST request
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  329. # [17:32] <kanchan_Tripathi> Philip i did that its not working
  330. # [17:32] <kanchan_Tripathi> ??
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  343. # [18:12] * gsnedders is way too tempted to collapse asleep in bed
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  352. # [18:51] <smedero> Philip`: http://boston.lti.cs.cmu.edu/Data/clueweb09/ -- just in case you'd like a lot more web data and have someone willing to pay for it
  353. # [18:51] <smedero> if i recall, you're at a Uni... so you might have access to it already through a partnership.
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  377. # [21:11] <takkaria> "I think that real openness is often much easier to get in a closed forum", hmm
  378. # [21:12] <Dashiva> real openness or apparent openness?
  379. # [21:12] <gavin_> presumably he means "openness" in the "honesty" sense
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  398. # [21:59] * jgraham wonders what takkaria was quoting
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  400. # [22:03] <takkaria> http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/04/html5-wai-aria#comment-6762
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  411. # [22:36] <Hixie> i'm baffled by the people who actually want working groups to work in a closed manner, ignoring external input
  412. # [22:37] <Hixie> (i've heard several people criticize the whatwg development model, but i've yet to hear anyone propose anything that actually results in a better spec)
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  415. # [22:41] * Philip` wonders how one would judge whether a proposal would result in a better spec
  416. # [22:42] <gsnedders> The score of "The Matrix Revolutions" is awesome.
  417. # [22:43] <Hixie> Philip`: i've yet to hear anyone propose anything that even they think results in a better spec
  418. # [22:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: I thought its score was about 5 out of 10, which doesn't sound that good
  419. # [22:43] <jgraham> Philip`: Presumably you do it like astrophysics and just look at lots of examples and try to infer the common proprties and so on
  420. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: The score has far better reviews than the film itself :)
  421. # [22:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, you mean the score scores highly?
  422. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: s/score/soundtrack/g if that makes you understand better
  423. # [22:45] <Philip`> gsnedders: That removes the fun of misunderstanding
  424. # [22:47] * Joins: richb_ (n=irchon@host86-133-247-110.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  425. # [22:47] <Philip`> jgraham: In astrophysics there's like a trillion trillion examples you can look at, but for HTML specs there's like one (to the nearest couple of orders of magnitude)
  426. # [22:48] <Philip`> which I guess makes any conclusions much less reliable
  427. # [22:49] <richb_> just read the article about link-is rel=shorter the same idea as rev canonical?
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  429. # [22:50] <smedero> rel=short|shorter|shortlink|shorturl|short_url
  430. # [22:50] <smedero> what fun!
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  432. # [22:51] <richb_> great! thought there was meant to be some sort.of spec...
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  434. # [22:52] <richb_> any ua implement any usage of any?
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  451. # [23:11] <takkaria> richb_: no, no-one implements any of them as yet
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  456. # [23:18] <richb_> heard lots more about html5 recently - what happened to xhtml2.0?
  457. # [23:19] <Hixie> nothing particularly, it still exists and is being developed:
  458. # [23:19] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/
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  460. # [23:20] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/latest/ is where development happens
  461. # [23:20] <richb_> is it still relevant? seems html5 is making more progress
  462. # [23:20] <Hixie> depends who you ask
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  464. # [23:21] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#relationships-to-other-specifications might help
  465. # [23:21] <richb_> guess that's just an outsiders view
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  468. # [23:22] <Hixie> well the people working on xhtml2 presumably think html5 will go nowhere, an the people working on html5 by and large think the same about xhtml2 :-)
  469. # [23:22] <Hixie> hence why there are two groups :-)
  470. # [23:22] <Hixie> though i hear there's work underway to merge the two groups and just have one language
  471. # [23:22] <Hixie> dunno how that's gonna work
  472. # [23:26] <takkaria> Hixie: do you ever regret having large portions of Yes Minister on your website under /bible? :)
  473. # [23:26] <Hixie> no
  474. # [23:26] <Hixie> i use it the same way i used the text on ian.hixie.ch/'s main page
  475. # [23:26] <Hixie> it's a bogofilter
  476. # [23:27] <takkaria> fair play
  477. # [23:27] <Hixie> (people self-identify as feeling unable to argue their case by pointing to the page as evidence that i am not arguing fairly)
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  479. # [23:29] <takkaria> it also seems blatanly unfair to assume that because something's on your website that's clearly quoted from somewhere else, that you agree with it and use it on a daily basis
  480. # [23:29] <Hixie> right -- people who claim that are self-identifying as candidates for my mail filters
  481. # [23:29] <Hixie> it's pretty awesome
  482. # [23:31] <Hixie> i had the sentence "I am always ready to reassess my core assumptions in the light of new evidence" on that site's home page before that i used in the same way
  483. # [23:31] <Hixie> i knew that if people quoted that sentence at me that arguing with them was likely a waste of time
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  486. # [23:43] <Dashiva> So xhtml2 is slowly adding more and more of html4 back as deprecated? Or?
  487. # [23:47] <Hixie> no idea, you'd have to ask the xhtml2 wg
  488. # [23:48] <Hixie> the end is in sight with the <code>datagrid</code> rewrite
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  490. # [23:48] <annevk2> is someone going to implement it that you're doing that now?
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  493. # [23:51] <Hixie> chrome almost has someone to implement it but i had to tell them to stop given the big problems with the design
  494. # [23:51] <Hixie> that was in jan or feb
  495. # [23:52] <Hixie> it's pretty late to be doing changes like this at all; when would you want me to do it?
  496. # [23:52] <annevk2> i'm just curious :)
  497. # [23:53] <Hixie> rdfa is next, after a brief pause for websocket stuff and to fix the typos people found
  498. # [23:53] <Hixie> oh and making the specs ready to publish
  499. # [23:54] <Lachy> is rdfa actually going to make it into HTML5?
  500. # [23:54] <Hixie> depends what the use cases are and how well they are a match for them
  501. # [23:55] <Lachy> oh, ok. So you haven't made a final decision yet?
  502. # [23:55] <Hixie> "final"?
  503. # [23:55] <Hixie> i haven't made any decisions yet, if i had i wouldn't have to do anything :-)
  504. # [23:56] <Hixie> and decisions i make are hardly final, after all, the wg has to agree to them before the spec is done
  505. # [23:56] <Lachy> I meant, you haven't decided whether or not you will be adding any RDFa to the spec yet
  506. # [23:56] <Hixie> i decided not to at least once before
  507. # [23:57] <Hixie> but there are new use cases that have been introduced to the discussion
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  509. # [23:57] <takkaria> I wish people would stop harping on about this "invalid code in HTML5 has no negative consequences" thing, since s/5/4/ and you're just as accurate
  510. # [23:58] <Hixie> "people"? i thought it was just one person
  511. # [23:58] <Hixie> and yeah i don't understand what they mean by "no negative consequences"
  512. # [23:58] <Hixie> isn't a page being inaccessible a pretty serious negative consequence?
  513. # [23:58] <Lachy> who said there's no negative consequences?
  514. # [23:58] <takkaria> maybe it is just John Foliot getting around
  515. # [23:58] <Hixie> john foliot keeps saying that making pages inaccessible has no serious negative consequences, or something along those lines. I don't fully understand what he's saying exactly.
  516. # [23:59] <annevk2> John Foliot has been touting it lately
  517. # [23:59] <Lachy> invalid code doesn't inherently mean inaccessible though.
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  519. # [23:59] <Lachy> Hixie, I assume you mean s/inaccessible/invalid/
  520. # [23:59] <Hixie> Lachy: no but he's talking about invalid code in terms of not providing <canvas> fallback, and things along those lines, as i understand it
  521. # [23:59] <annevk2> his point is that since HTML5 defines error handling making errors is not a problem
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  523. # [23:59] <Hixie> clearly i don't understand what he's saying
  524. # Session Close: Sat Apr 18 00:00:00 2009

The end :)