/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 20 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [01:32] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> hello
  14. # [01:32] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> any major differences from xhtml? will there be compatibility issues or differences?
  15. # [01:33] * jcranmer snickers
  16. # [01:33] <jcranmer> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML
  17. # [01:36] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> so document.write can be used in regular without using script in html5?
  18. # [01:37] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> will there be compatibility issues with html5 or will xhtml be more compatible across devices or browsers?
  19. # [01:37] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> safari recognized <audio> tag but firefox and ie8 didnt
  20. # [01:37] <Hixie> document.write will work the same in html5 as it has in the past
  21. # [01:37] <jcranmer> HTML is designed, in part, to represent current browser semantics
  22. # [01:38] <Hixie> in fact html5 in general is supposed to work the same as in the past, yeah
  23. # [01:38] <jcranmer> besides
  24. # [01:38] <jcranmer> FF nightlies have <audio> support
  25. # [01:38] <Hixie> so html5 will likely be more compatible than xhtml in general
  26. # [01:38] <Hixie> (IE doesn't do XHTML, e.g.)
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  28. # [01:38] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> i made my site in xhtml
  29. # [01:38] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> becuase i was told it was a standard based form
  30. # [01:39] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> so i decided to use it and keep strict validation
  31. # [01:39] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> as a noob though, but i was udner impression xhtml was the future
  32. # [01:40] <Hixie> it was, for a while
  33. # [01:40] <Hixie> then it wasn't
  34. # [01:40] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> html5 will be lowercase?
  35. # [01:40] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> will it have a validation feature like xhtml?
  36. # [01:40] <Hixie> html5's tags are case-insensitive
  37. # [01:40] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> so they have to be uppercase?
  38. # [01:40] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> i like lowercase xhtml
  39. # [01:40] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> lol
  40. # [01:40] <Hixie> http://html5.validator.nu/
  41. # [01:40] <Hixie> no, they can be whatever case you prefer
  42. # [01:40] <Hixie> lowercase, uppercase, both, whatever
  43. # [01:41] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> will html5 require all tags to be closed like xhtml?
  44. # [01:41] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> <br />
  45. # [01:41] <Hixie> no, but it allows it
  46. # [01:41] <jcranmer> <A hReF="#asdf">
  47. # [01:41] <Hixie> <br> and <br/> are equivalent in html5
  48. # [01:41] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> nice its good you can use both :)
  49. # [01:42] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> and in html5 y ou dont have to specify type for script?
  50. # [01:42] <Hixie> nope
  51. # [01:42] <Hixie> <script> is fine
  52. # [01:42] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> of course css is still good
  53. # [01:43] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> www.q4supremacymod.com is my site i am using as a learning tool :P
  54. # [01:44] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> so in html5 y ou wont have to use object tag? for video?
  55. # [01:46] <Hixie> for video you'll be able to use <video>
  56. # [01:46] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> nice
  57. # [01:47] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> came across this from youtube saw a demo on html5
  58. # [01:47] <Hixie> cool
  59. # [01:48] <Hixie> is that the "features you desperately want but can't yet use" video?
  60. # [01:48] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> yeah
  61. # [01:48] <Hixie> i'm the guy giving that presentation :-)
  62. # [01:48] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> the car with the laptop on the hood :)
  63. # [01:48] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> nice
  64. # [01:49] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> i will put a link on my site to www.whatwg.org :)
  65. # [01:49] <Hixie> :-)
  66. # [01:49] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> my site is a community for quakers and doomers
  67. # [01:49] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> :)
  68. # [01:50] <jcranmer> and my site is an intranet where my latest addition was a theming style that derives from an april fools' day prank derived from google
  69. # [01:50] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> i dont think i saw that april fools one
  70. # [01:51] <jcranmer> well, it's an intranet
  71. # [01:51] <jcranmer> I don't think you'd see intranet april fools' day pranks
  72. # [01:51] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> ahh
  73. # [01:52] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> intranet being your personal local net not the global one?
  74. # [01:52] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> i should have went and studied computer science instead of psychology
  75. # [01:52] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> but my eye did catch intra vs inter
  76. # [01:52] <jcranmer> intranet = intra-net; intra- = within
  77. # [01:53] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> yeah latin idea
  78. # [01:53] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> endocrine exocrine
  79. # [01:53] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> internal secrete versus external
  80. # [01:56] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> so for <video src="firefox.ogg" controls autoplay></video>
  81. # [01:56] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> you dont need to separate with commas?
  82. # [01:56] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> controls and autoplay you can list them after the src?
  83. # [01:57] <Hixie> yup
  84. # [01:57] <Hixie> it's like with <input type=text value="test" readonly disabled>
  85. # [01:58] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> and some habits i have with xhtml i can still keep in html5
  86. # [01:59] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> its good i dont have to have the doctype in 5
  87. # [01:59] <Hixie> yeah just the short one
  88. # [01:59] <Hixie> <!DOCTYPE HTML>
  89. # [01:59] <Hixie> it's actually possible to memorise it!
  90. # [02:00] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> hehehe yeah
  91. # [02:00] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
  92. # [02:00] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
  93. # [02:00] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
  94. # [02:00] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> is a bit of a pain lol
  95. # [02:01] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> i havent memorized it yet
  96. # [02:02] <Rik`> Hixie: is the lang attribute required on <html> ?
  97. # [02:02] <Rik`> oh, if i remember, <html> is not even required
  98. # [02:02] <Hixie> lang="" isn't required, but it's a good idea to put it in to declare the language, that way things like :lang() in CSS work
  99. # [02:03] <Rik`> or assistive technology can use it
  100. # [02:05] <Hixie> indeed
  101. # [02:05] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> php will be usable to? i am looking at the file open and save
  102. # [02:05] <Rik`> I'd like to see it required but it's maybe more a WCAG concern
  103. # [02:05] <Hixie> [SMQ]Mrpsycholo: html5 doesn't really affect php
  104. # [02:06] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> cause i wanted to have users to be able to upload files
  105. # [02:06] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> but my site doesnt do php with windows i guess
  106. # [02:06] <Hixie> Rik`: i don't think in practice there's a big enough disadvantage to not including it to warrant requiring it
  107. # [02:06] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> people in the community who have content could upload the content is what i wanted to do originally
  108. # [02:09] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> will html ever use // for comment lines? or /* */ ?
  109. # [02:10] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> that would interfere wouldnt it with what could be on the page?
  110. # [02:10] <Rik`> Hixie: accessibility concerns ? good practices ? but like I said, it's maybe not the role of html5
  111. # [02:11] <Hixie> Rik`: in practice, ATs don't need the language, they'll assume the user's language, which will almost always be right
  112. # [02:11] <Hixie> [SMQ]Mrpsycholo: too many pages already include those for us to do that i think
  113. # [02:12] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> do you guys have an icon?
  114. # [02:12] <Rik`> "almost always" ? i go to french and english websites, in the same proportions
  115. # [02:12] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> when i put the link on the page i could put an icon
  116. # [02:13] <Hixie> [SMQ]Mrpsycholo: http://whatwg.org/images/
  117. # [02:13] <Rik`> so if i used ATs, half the time it would be wrong
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  119. # [02:14] <Hixie> Rik`: true. though in those cases, basic heuristics could guess the language anyway.
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  121. # [02:15] <Rik`> I don't know if they have this mechanism, I believe not from the last demo I had
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  123. # [02:17] <Rik`> has this subject been discussed already ?
  124. # [02:20] <Hixie> Rik`: which, requiring language declarations?
  125. # [02:20] <Rik`> yep
  126. # [02:21] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> i appreciate the help i will defintiely read more on that demo site
  127. # [02:22] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> its good you also provided the text too :)
  128. # [02:23] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> any of you guys play quake? lol
  129. # [02:27] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> when you guys need a break from coding play this :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hqWgRx7QgM :)
  130. # [02:33] <Hixie> Rik`: don't think so
  131. # [02:37] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> quakelive is the new version ported into a browser actually
  132. # [02:37] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> i was impressed with how unreal tournament used web for control of a server in unreal tournament 3
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  147. # [05:23] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> is it possible to make your own tags yet?
  148. # [05:24] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> document.getElementByTagName('div') could you possibly define your own?
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  150. # [05:31] <Hixie> [SMQ]Mrpsycholo: to make up your own tag, you pick a tag that is closest to what you want your tag to mean, and then you put your tag's name in the "class" attribute
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  162. # [06:40] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> oh yeah that makes sense :)
  163. # [06:41] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> under type in css you would define it as a block right?
  164. # [06:41] <Hixie> depends what kind of presentation you want, but yes
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  166. # [06:42] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> the most difficulty i have had so far is the positioning
  167. # [06:42] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> thats why i went with frameset
  168. # [06:43] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> trying that layout wiht css without using frames was such a pain for me
  169. # [06:43] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> it was easier just to define columsand rows
  170. # [06:43] <[SMQ]Mrpsycholo> make several pages to accomplish it
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  173. # [06:54] <kanchan_Tripathi> Hello to all can anybody please tell me how to post a form value using telnet
  174. # [06:54] <kanchan_Tripathi> ??
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  176. # [07:07] <kanchan_Tripathi> Hello to all can anybody please tell me how to post a form value using telnet??
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  205. # [08:53] <hsivonen> I had dinner with friends who make software
  206. # [08:53] <hsivonen> two of them have done XML signatures
  207. # [08:53] <hsivonen> and said that one should avoid XML signatures if one wants interop
  208. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: why is that? because not enough implementations handle XML signatures, or because they don't handle them interoperably?
  209. # [08:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: because XML signatures depend on canonicalized serialization of XML and everyone has bugs in the canonicalizing serializer
  210. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> ah
  211. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> yeah, that seems like a weak design
  212. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> I wonder how many of the bugs are due to ambiguities in the Canonicalization spec?
  213. # [09:02] <hsivonen> as I understand it, it's mainly that UTF-8 is tough, Namespaces are tough and string interning is tough
  214. # [09:02] <hsivonen> all in all, serializing XML is tough
  215. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> so in the case of the Widgets work, it really doesn't seem like it's necessary to use XML signatures if something less complex and more robust will work instead
  216. # [09:06] <hsivonen> seems that way to me
  217. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I notice that the xhtml5core.rnc whattf driver doesn't toggle off the <mark> element the way that the html5core.rnc driver does
  218. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> do you recall of that's by design for some reason?
  219. # [09:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: seems like a bug
  220. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> OK
  221. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> I'll try to fix it in the patch I'm working on for generating the driver files
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  223. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I notice also that xhtml5core.rnc has "v5only = notAllowed" but html5core.rnc does not
  224. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, I see that v5only is, among other things, used to toggle the <mark> element
  225. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> so seems like the 'include "phrase.rnc" { mark.elem = empty }' part is maybe not necessary
  226. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> if html5core.rnc uses "v5only = notAllowed" instead too
  227. # [09:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, the bug is probably the other way round than first thought
  228. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
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  235. # [09:55] <hsivonen> annevk2: why do CSS namespaces allow @namespace url(http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml); ?
  236. # [09:55] <hsivonen> annevk2: after all, the NS "URI" is a string and not an address
  237. # [09:55] <hsivonen> (probably too late to change now. I'm just curious.)
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  239. # [09:58] <annevk2> because it's too late to change now
  240. # [09:59] <annevk2> CSS namespaces is from 99
  241. # [09:59] <hsivonen> annevk2: ok
  242. # [10:01] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/charter
  243. # [10:01] <hsivonen> how come W3C Widgets are now a social Web topic?
  244. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no clue from me
  245. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> I guess I should actually take time to read charters
  246. # [10:03] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@76.14.74.242)
  247. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> "The scope includes issues such as widget platforms (such as OpenSocial, Facebook and W3C Widgets).."
  248. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> I didn't even know that widget platforms were an "issue", let alone one related to the idea of social Web
  249. # [10:06] <hsivonen> I guess the kind of widgets that are embedded on Web pages are commonly used on Social Media Web 2.0 sites
  250. # [10:07] <hsivonen> but W3C Widgets aren't that kind of widgets
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  255. # [10:19] <jgraham> There's discussion going on of ecmascript versioning on es-discuss, for those not following along at home
  256. # [10:26] * hsivonen predicts that out of band version won't be adopted by authors.
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  259. # [10:41] * hendry discovers http://syntax.whattf.org/relaxng/
  260. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> hendry: don't get too used to that
  261. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> the schema drivers are likely going to disappear
  262. # [10:42] <hendry> MikeSmith: drivers?
  263. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> html5full.rnc and others
  264. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> those drivers are really intended to be used within the context of validator.nu
  265. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> and the legacy.rnc file in particular is intended to be used within the validator.nu context and not for schema-only checking
  266. # [10:44] <hendry> just thinking it would be nice to validate html5 locally with rnv and one of these schemas. some Debian Web apps (ikiwiki) want to validate generated HTML offline and rnv would be lightweight. validator.nu is too heavy to get running on a buld machine.
  267. # [10:45] * zcorpan notes that 'text-shadow' does not support the effect used at http://syntax.whattf.org/
  268. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> hendry: yeah, I can understand that
  269. # [10:45] <hsivonen> hendry: if you come up with a regexp hack to replace the proper datatypes with rnv-compatible approximations, please share it
  270. # [10:45] <hsivonen> hendry: does rnv support XSD regexps?
  271. # [10:46] <zcorpan> oh the shadow has different text
  272. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> I don't think it does
  273. # [10:46] <hendry> XSD? i thought we don't use XSD :)
  274. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> I mean I don't think RNV supports pluggable datatypes
  275. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> hendry: it's debatable whether we want to be doing anything to facilitate schema-only validation outside of the context of a complete conformance checker
  276. # [10:49] <hsivonen> hendry: we don't use XSD. However, the XSD regexps aren't all bad, although they have surprising quirks.
  277. # [10:49] <hendry> i prefer a 'less is more' approach. or i want a non-complete lightweight conformance checker.
  278. # [10:50] <hsivonen> hendry: so if you don't port the HTML5 datatype library for rnv and rnv supports XSD regexps, you are better off using regexps than no attribute value checking at all
  279. # [10:51] <hsivonen> hendry: I'd expect it to be feasible to run a perl or python script over the schemas so that the proper datatypes are trashed and the commented regexps uncommented
  280. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> hendry: outside of the datatype issue, you'll still be able to do that kind of checking with the schemas, by taking the schema modules and writing your own drivers
  281. # [10:55] <annevk2> One problem with ECMAScript versions is that Mozilla uses its own versioning stuff for JavaScript. E.g. JavaScript 1.7. (Not too different from UA=IE8...) The other of course that the specification does not actually document how to react to different version identifiers and such.
  282. # [10:55] <hendry> MikeSmith: sorry, bit confused by terminology; so a driver = .rnc = RelaxNG Schema ?
  283. # [10:56] <hsivonen> hendry: driver as in XHTML2 WG Modularization speak :-)
  284. # [10:56] <hsivonen> hendry: a schema that just imports other schema files
  285. # [10:57] <hendry> hsivonen: and i'm confused about you talk of regexps. were you saying you could not to use rnv and use regexps to validate?
  286. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> hendry: the drivers are the files there that don't define any content models themselves, but just import the other schema files that have the actual definitions
  287. # [10:57] <hendry> MikeSmith: gotcha
  288. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.davidashen.net/rnv.html says:
  289. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> "Besides built-in support for XML Schema datatypes, RNV provides two different ways to add user-defined datatype libraries."
  290. # [10:59] <hsivonen> hendry: I'm saying that it'll be easier for you to approximate the HTML5 datatype with XSD regexps than to write a an implementation of the HTML5 Datatype Library in such a way that it can be used with RNV
  291. # [10:59] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  292. # [11:00] <annevk2> you in the US hsivonen?
  293. # [11:01] <hsivonen> annevk2: not yet
  294. # [11:01] <hsivonen> annevk2: flying on Saturday
  295. # [11:01] <hendry> hsivonen: ok, i grok .rncs, though i have no real exp with 'XSD regexps'. do you have XSD examples i could peer at? and what tool uses them? xmlstarlet?
  296. # [11:01] <hendry> hsivonen: San Francisco? :-)
  297. # [11:01] <hsivonen> hendry: there are commented-out examples in common.rnc
  298. # [11:01] <hsivonen> hendry: first Mountain View, then Alexandria, VA
  299. # [11:04] <hendry> MikeSmith: so you think rnv can support XDF with an external command or something? what tool grok XSD regexps then?
  300. # [11:04] <hendry> s/XDF/XSD/
  301. # [11:04] <hendry> hsivonen: what's in Alexandria?
  302. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> hendry: to use that feature in rnv, I think you have to roll the external command yourself
  303. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> or use RNV's alternate support for expressing the datatype-checking in scheme
  304. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> if you know scheme or lisp already, that might be a good way to go
  305. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> or a useful project for somebody who does know lisp or scheme well
  306. # [11:06] <hsivonen> hendry: friend's wedding
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  308. # [11:09] <hendry> MikeSmith: i don't know lisp well. i didn't like my dr scheme class and University. or emacs. drat.
  309. # [11:09] <hendry> s/and/at :-) University was great
  310. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> hendry: anyway, there are some examples and more info in the README that's distributed with rnv
  311. # [11:12] <hendry> MikeSmith: yup. I see them.
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  321. # [11:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: I was able to find and fix the bug you reported about parsing http://www.giftology.co.uk
  322. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm unable to reproduce the bugs about http://www.villatraining.ca/ and http://www.autobanga.lt/
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  332. # [12:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you have additional clues on how to track down http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090401#l-410 ?
  333. # [12:38] <hsivonen> "Use aria-label only if the interface is such that it is not possible to have a visible label on the screen"
  334. # [12:38] <hsivonen> I wonder how strict "possible" is there
  335. # [12:41] * hsivonen wonders how aria-label use cases differ from title attribute use cases
  336. # [12:41] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-194-253.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  337. # [12:42] * zcorpan wonders why one can't use css positioning to hide labels off-screen
  338. # [12:43] <zcorpan> hsivonen: have you had a look at http://philip.html5.org/data/table-implicitly-closed-p.txt ?
  339. # [12:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: only took a look at a tiny sample so far
  340. # [12:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: tiny as in 10
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  346. # [12:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe it's possible to set up a script that takes a screenshot using the old moz parser and using the html5 parser and then comparing the screenshots
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  351. # [12:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I guess the reftest framework could be changed to do something like that
  352. # [12:52] <hsivonen> why did ARIA hois aria-invalid to a global state???
  353. # [12:52] <hsivonen> *hoist
  354. # [12:52] <hsivonen> and required
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  363. # [13:30] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hmm, that might just be because I was using a really old version
  364. # [13:30] <Philip`> (1.0.7 apparently)
  365. # [13:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh. I thought you were using my special Philip` build
  366. # [13:30] * Quits: adambeynon (n=adambeyn@94-193-137-134.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  367. # [13:31] <Philip`> hsivonen: Oh, maybe I was
  368. # [13:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: I can try testing it some time later, if I don't forget
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  370. # [13:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
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  374. # [14:08] <hsivonen> how does JAWS 10 get the landmark roles from a browser?
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  377. # [14:19] <annevk2> if they don't map to an accessibility API direcltly I believe accessibility APIs (maybe not all) have some way to store unknown roles
  378. # [14:19] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  379. # [14:20] <annevk2> are there no posts on the benefits of e.g. using role=navigation in current screen readers?
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  382. # [14:20] <annevk2> seems quite logical that some would have toyed with it already and posted results
  383. # [14:25] <jgraham> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/landmarks.html
  384. # [14:28] * jgraham makes a note to self that evolving the language seperatly from the implementation requirements is bad beacuse feedback from implementation can't affect the language design
  385. # [14:29] <annevk2> I'm thinking that dealing with screen readers must suck. I hate learning shortcuts but there you'd have to learn whole sets of words and their meaning to figure out what the screen reader is talking about.
  386. # [14:29] <Philip`> annevk2: That's probably why most people aren't voluntarily blind
  387. # [14:31] <annevk2> You think better software is holding them back?
  388. # [14:31] <Philip`> (Well, not specifically because of that issue with screen readers, but the general issue of it making life much harder)
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  390. # [14:31] <annevk2> So only JAWS supports them.
  391. # [14:32] <jgraham> I guess it is interesting that there is no common use of audio to supplement the browsing experience
  392. # [14:32] <jgraham> Presumably that means that visuasl input is so high bandwidth that trying to add audio would just cause blocking
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  394. # [14:33] <Philip`> jgraham: That's not true - a large number of pages use audio to provide information such as "this page was designed in the 90s" to their readers
  395. # [14:34] <Philip`> Also there's the click sound when you click links (at least in IE, at some point in the past)
  396. # [14:35] <annevk2> hsivonen, "IO Error: <http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/04/html5-wai-aria#comment-6768> Code: 59/PROHIBITED_COMPONENT_PRESENT in FRAGMENT: A component that is prohibited by the scheme is present." is annoying
  397. # [14:35] <annevk2> hsivonen, just ignore the fragment (maybe say you did if you really want to)
  398. # [14:35] <jgraham> Philip`: I'm not sure author-supplied midi files count :)
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  402. # [14:41] <annevk2> "I worked hard to get a good list of landmarks from the PF group, but what it ended up as was spec writers deciding what users should want." -- https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=459395
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  405. # [14:42] <annevk2> What is it again they criticize the WHATWG for?
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  412. # [14:49] <annevk2> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=MetaExtensions&diff=3626&oldid=3467 o_O
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  414. # [14:52] <Lachy> woah. That's a lot of proposals
  415. # [14:53] <Lachy> I thought he only added the useless addmark and addmarklocal extensions to address the non-existent problem he imagined in bug 6774
  416. # [14:53] <annevk2> it's from the guy "spamming" W3C bugzilla
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  418. # [14:54] <Lachy> yeah, I realised that
  419. # [14:55] <annevk2> hmm, per https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=459395 browsers don't support ARIA roles. It's the AT being creative
  420. # [14:56] <Lachy> dammit, my email on dreamhost is down. That explains why I haven't received anything for a few hours :-(
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  428. # [15:15] <zcorpan> annevk2: s/roles/landmarks/
  429. # [15:16] <zcorpan> annevk2: the value of the role="" attribute is, in firefox, always exposed as-is via xml-roles
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  440. # [16:18] <takkaria> I think that Nick guy thinks the mark element is going to be used like MS' smart tags were going to be
  441. # [16:19] <takkaria> but I'm not quite sure where he thinks the third-party servers are going to come in to it from
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  446. # [16:34] <Philip`> takkaria: Maybe the third-party servers are like Google's cache servers, that serve pages and insert extra markup to highlight search term matches?
  447. # [16:35] * Philip` assumes this is related to bug 6774, but he only skimmed the first half of the first comment before getting terminally bored
  448. # [16:39] <jgraham> If you got terminally bored, are you posting from beyond the grave?
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  450. # [16:44] <Philip`> It was terminal to my reading of the bug, not to my life
  451. # [16:46] <annevk2> zcorpan, yeah, that's what I meant; hoped it was clear that the statement was scoped by the bug; guess not :)
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  455. # [16:53] <jgraham> http://socialcollider.net/ is a kind of interesting way of killing browsers
  456. # [16:53] * sid0_ is now known as sid0
  457. # [16:53] <jgraham> (because it's so slow)
  458. # [16:54] <jgraham> (especially in gecko)
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  461. # [16:56] <annevk2> hsivonen, your HTML parser is not used for everything in Gecko?
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  478. # [17:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: still appears to be crashy for me
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  485. # [18:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/87
  486. # [18:01] <annevk2> whoa, Firefox 3.6something uppercases ö to Ö
  487. # [18:03] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-6878f2d7022436cd) ("Lost terminal")
  488. # [18:04] <gsnedders> WebKit does too
  489. # [18:04] <gsnedders> (Saf4b, this is)
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  494. # [18:37] * gsnedders is trying to get lyrics from music
  495. # [18:38] * gsnedders supposes he could just ask the vocalist
  496. # [18:42] * gsnedders is listening to Epic Fail by Hit the Breaks
  497. # [18:42] <Philip`> You could try listening to it and writing down the words
  498. # [18:42] <gsnedders> I expect a lot of you would find this amusing.
  499. # [18:42] <gsnedders> http://www.myspace.com/hitthebrakesno5
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  504. # [18:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: I was trying to listen to it and write down the world
  505. # [18:56] <gsnedders> *words
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  543. # [20:38] <nitroball> Hey, wassup? Anyone try using the canvas tag with the Wii brower? It works very well except the color is missing for me on the lines.
  544. # [20:39] <nitroball> Color does show up in the IE, Opera, Firefox, etc.
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  549. # [20:54] <weinig> annevk2: ping
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  555. # [21:09] <nitroball> I think I figured it out... ctx.lineStyle = "rgba(255,165,0,1)"; doesn't work on the Wii browser. ctx.lineStyle = "rgb(255,165,0)"; does
  556. # [21:09] <nitroball> its the alpha value that was turning everything black
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  561. # [21:27] * kinetik_ is now known as kinetik
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  563. # [21:44] * remysharp is now known as the_jsbin_guy
  564. # [21:44] * the_jsbin_guy is now known as remysharp
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  567. # [21:59] <Hixie> so i'm going through the rdf folder looking for actual use cases and requirements
  568. # [21:59] * sid0 is now known as sid0|afk
  569. # [21:59] <Hixie> 99% of the e-mails have absolutely nothing to do with use cases, despite the e-mail i sent saying that that's all i was looking for
  570. # [21:59] <Hixie> of the remainder, there are use cases like "provide information useful for improving the accessibility of Web content"
  571. # [22:00] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-194-253.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  572. # [22:00] <Hixie> which are the most vague, under-defined, and useless use case descriptions in the history of mankind
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  598. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: Time to beat that: "to improve the long-term direction of the human race"
  599. # [23:15] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  600. # [23:16] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Can you prove that axiomatically?
  601. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Proof? Peh.
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  605. # [23:38] <gsnedders> http://www.tesco.com/books/search.aspx?Ntt=%EF%BF%BF&Ntk=primary&VSI=1&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchall&Nty=1&N=0
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  610. # [23:51] * gsnedders has interview 8am tomorrow morning, yay
  611. # [23:54] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip137.unival.com)
  612. # Session Close: Tue Apr 21 00:00:00 2009

The end :)