/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-23 / end

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  57. # [02:53] <Hixie> any opera people here? i'm trying to work out how to complete this sentence:
  58. # [02:53] <Hixie> Chaals could improve the Opera intranet if he had a mechanism for identifying the original source of various parts of a page, because...
  59. # [02:54] <Hixie> it's based on something chaals said but i don't seem to be able to find anything about how knowing the original source of a page would actually help improve the intranet
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  91. # [05:59] <Hixie> i love this use case (paraphrasing): "how come if a tv guide site doesn't include a link to imdb my browser can't detect that it's a tv show from the microdata the author puts in the page and create an implied link to imdb?"
  92. # [06:01] <Hixie> if the tv guide author isn't including the link you want... what makes you think he'll include the microdata you want?
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  94. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: because experience has shown us that right-thinking authors will always go out of their way to embed hidden content that's only intended to be exposed to users of specialized tools, but not to normal users
  95. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> and they will never make any mistakes when they do it
  96. # [06:08] <Hixie> well actually some of the summary="" data did show that that does hapen sometimes!
  97. # [06:08] <Hixie> they have to be pretty motivated authors though
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  124. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie: am I'm reading it incorrectly, or does abarth's content-sniffing data indicate that 0x00000100 signature almost never actually triggers in practice?
  125. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> http://webblaze.cs.berkeley.edu/2009/content-sniffing/metrics.html
  126. # [07:56] <Hixie> the metric counter is probably not being triggered for favicons
  127. # [07:56] <Hixie> but you'd have to speak to abarth for details
  128. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> I see
  129. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> just asking because that seems the be the only remaining case where Gecko content-sniffing behavior is different from the spec
  130. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> and abarth recommendation in the related Mozilla bug is that signature just be removed
  131. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465007
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  135. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/200ok/status/1592050739
  136. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> "why isn't NOSCRIPT valid inside HEAD? there are perfectly legit uses..."
  137. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> noscript is allowed in head, right?
  138. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> ah, I guess it's not allowed in HTML4
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  150. # [09:10] <Hixie> Lachy: have you heard any news of a a requiem that works with the latest iTunes?
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  158. # [09:41] <Lachy> Hixie, no
  159. # [09:42] <Lachy> Hixie, my only source of information is that forum thread. So if you checked there, I'm unlikely to know anything more than you
  160. # [09:43] <Lachy> but I just started freenet to see if the page has been updated since the last version was released
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  163. # [09:54] * Philip` wonders why they don't just publish all the news and updates on, like, a web page
  164. # [09:58] <Lachy> Philip`, because Requiem is techically illegal to distribute, and so an ordinary web page is subjected to DMCA take down notices and subsequent legal issues for failing to comply
  165. # [09:58] <Lachy> Using Freenet helps to avoid that by keeping anonymous
  166. # [09:59] <olliej> Lachy: requiem?
  167. # [09:59] <Lachy> it's illegal because of the anti-circumvention clauses in the DMCA and similar laws in other countries
  168. # [09:59] <Lachy> olliej, an iTunes DRM removal utility
  169. # [10:01] <olliej> happily at least some of that drm is gone
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  171. # [10:05] * Philip` recently discovered get_iplayer which can download BBC programmes via the streaming Flash RTMP protocol, including a few in HD (1280x720 3Mbps H.264), which is pretty nice, and much more useful than the official Flash interface
  172. # [10:06] <Philip`> (They have a cross-platform programme downloader built on Adobe Air, but Air only installs onto deb/RPM-based Linuxes, not Gentoo, so I can't use it)
  173. # [10:07] * Philip` would prefer it if they didn't have to make things so unnecessarily complex (rather than e.g. providing a download link to an .mp4 file)
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  194. # [11:12] * jgraham realises that one of his scripts has broken because he installed a namespace-aware html5lib
  195. # [11:13] <jgraham> except s/one/many/, just that I haven't tried to use the others yet
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  200. # [11:35] <annevk2> lol
  201. # [11:35] <annevk2> check http://www.stockholmgamlastan.se/ in Opera
  202. # [11:36] <jgraham> It would be much less funny if the photographs on the site weren't so crappy
  203. # [11:37] <krijnh> Nice, simpel protection :)
  204. # [11:37] <svl> heh
  205. # [11:37] * svl toggles dom.event.contextmenu.enabled and happily rightclicks a couple of times
  206. # [11:37] <krijnh> That'll teach them!
  207. # [11:38] <olliej> wow, that's stupid
  208. # [11:38] <olliej> errr
  209. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> annevk2: hallvord should write a patch for browser.js that unblocks opera and then replaces all the images on the pages with lolcats or something
  210. # [11:39] * Philip` left-clicks and drags the image into Firefox's location bar, and then uses Ctrl+S
  211. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> speaking of stupid: http://www.torchmobile.com/blog/?p=29
  212. # [11:41] <jgraham> Philip`: Why not jut drag the image to your folder of choice?
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  218. # [11:48] <Philip`> jgraham: Because I don't trust drag-and-drop to work in any scenario more complex than from one application to itself
  219. # [11:49] <Philip`> (Actually it often works between native KDE applications too, but Firefox isn't one of those so I still wouldn't trust it)
  220. # [11:51] <annevk2> http://sourcefrog.net/projects/meantime/ is interesting
  221. # [11:51] <annevk2> basically cookies through HTTP caching
  222. # [11:52] <annevk2> so you'd have to disable your cache altogether if you want to prevent tracking
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  224. # [12:19] <annevk2> it might also explain why Hixie got such strange values back for Last-Modified although somehow I doubt a lot of sites would be using the technique
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  226. # [12:24] * svl set his cache to 2MB a couple of years ago as a compromise between mostly preventing this and still having some use of the cache while staying within a single website.
  227. # [12:26] * Philip` enables cookies and uses a mostly-static IP, so people don't have to bother wasting time on such tricks to track people
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  243. # [14:36] <Lachy> re the right clicking on stockholmgamlastan.se , I guess they're not aware that Firefox has had the option to prevent context menu blocking for years
  244. # [14:40] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@62.82.106.5.static.user.ono.com)
  245. # [14:40] <annevk2> or aware of browser caches...
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  247. # [14:42] <Lachy> generally, people who try to prevent right clicking just want to use it as a deterrent
  248. # [14:42] <jgraham> Or drag and drop of view-page info or any of the other hundreds of ways of getting at those images
  249. # [14:42] <Lachy> besides, simply dragging the image from the browser to the desktop is the quickest way to save images now anyway
  250. # [14:43] <Philip`> The illusion of security is more valuable than security itself
  251. # [14:43] * Joins: broquaint (i=0948202a@81.108.250.33)
  252. # [14:44] <jgraham> Philip`: To whom? In this case I would prefer the ability to access the site and use the context menu than the ability to save the files
  253. # [14:45] <Philip`> jgraham: To the people who are choosing to implement illusory security, I guess
  254. # [14:46] <Philip`> (I am, of course, entirely wrong)
  255. # [14:46] <Lachy> it would be interesting to see some sort of usability study that analysed common techniques real users used when saving images, to find out if using the context menu is still a significantly relevant technique compared with others
  256. # [14:46] <Philip`> (because they'd prefer real security, but the cost is too high (since it's impossible), so they make do with the best can they easily implement)
  257. # [14:47] <Philip`> s/can they/they can/
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  300. # [17:12] <annevk2> hurray: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/
  301. # [17:17] <Philip`> I assume someone has already pointed out that the brackets in media="print and (color)" look weird and stupid and unintuitive? :-)
  302. # [17:18] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  303. # [17:18] <annevk2> not sure, but at this point the comment comes about seven years too late
  304. # [17:19] * Philip` wonders why it's restricted to disjunctive normal form
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  306. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> recommendations for "this week" happenings?
  307. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> i'm covering the datagrid and the keygen elements
  308. # [17:21] <annevk2> HTML5 was just published
  309. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> ah, indeed it was
  310. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> and presumably your html-differences document as well?
  311. # [17:21] <annevk2> also the drafts that were splitted out from HTML5 as well as Web Workers have been published too
  312. # [17:21] <annevk2> yes it was
  313. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> ooh
  314. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> excellent
  315. # [17:21] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: it looks a lot like there's going to be a parsing quirk (unless Hixie changes Acid2 and all browsers agree)
  316. # [17:22] <mpilgrim> is this the <p><table> thing?
  317. # [17:22] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: yeah
  318. # [17:22] <mpilgrim> yes, i saw your blog post on it
  319. # [17:22] * mpilgrim adds that link to the list of "around the web"
  320. # [17:22] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: zcorpan's public-html post has the conclusion, though
  321. # [17:23] <mpilgrim> checking
  322. # [17:23] <Philip`> annevk2: It may have been seven years but pretty much nobody uses it, so it'd be easy to change without breaking compatibility much :-)
  323. # [17:24] * mpilgrim can't tell if Philip` is joking
  324. # [17:24] <billyjackass> mpilgrim: dunno if you'd find this newsworthy
  325. # [17:24] <mpilgrim> it's used quite often for mobile stylesheets for iphone, ipod, android
  326. # [17:24] <billyjackass> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/e6812f79d2ba
  327. # [17:24] <billyjackass> "Harmonize content sniffing in HTML5 and Firefox"
  328. # [17:24] <billyjackass> abarth checking in on April 5
  329. # [17:24] <mpilgrim> billyjackass: absolutely!
  330. # [17:25] <Philip`> As far as I can see, the only examples more complex than comma-separated tokens are (I guess) trying to select mobile devices based on screen width
  331. # [17:25] <Philip`> (and they're not using the weird single-token-in-parentheses syntax)
  332. # [17:25] <billyjackass> mpilgrim: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465007 is the related bug
  333. # [17:25] * mpilgrim first learned about css media queries from an article on iphone-specific stylesheets
  334. # [17:25] <Philip`> 1 only screen and (max-device width:480px)
  335. # [17:25] <Philip`> 31 only screen and (max-device-width: 480px)
  336. # [17:25] <Philip`> 1 screen and (min-device-width: 481px)
  337. # [17:25] <Philip`> 1 screen and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio:0)
  338. # [17:25] * Joins: zalan (n=kvirc@80.99.193.98)
  339. # [17:26] <Philip`> (Total occurrence counts, and values, from 130K pages)
  340. # [17:26] <mpilgrim> i was ready to rant about how apple was making shit up again and polluting the web, until i checked discovered that it was a standard that nobody else was using
  341. # [17:26] <annevk2> :)
  342. # [17:26] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  343. # [17:26] <annevk2> it's been in Opera for a long time
  344. # [17:26] <mpilgrim> Philip`: that's interesting
  345. # [17:27] <annevk2> Firefox 3.5 has it too
  346. # [17:27] <Philip`> Polluting the web with standards isn't really any better than polluting the web with proprietary technologies
  347. # [17:27] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: media queries are nice with Opera Mini, too
  348. # [17:27] <mpilgrim> Philip`: blasphemy!
  349. # [17:27] <mpilgrim> ;)
  350. # [17:27] <Philip`> (They might be a bit better documented but that's the only real difference, and they equally add to complexity and not-working-in-everyone's-browser-ity and so on)
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  354. # [17:30] <mpilgrim> where is the new html5 draft published?
  355. # [17:30] <mpilgrim> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ still lists the feb 12 draft
  356. # [17:31] <Rik|work> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090423/
  357. # [17:31] <annevk2> seems the latest version links aren't updated yet
  358. # [17:31] <annevk2> MikeSmith, ^^
  359. # [17:31] <annevk2> it is however announced on http://www.w3.org/
  360. # [17:31] <Philip`> Hmph, the multipage splits are all stupid now
  361. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, TR symlinks are not set up yet
  362. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> webmaster is working on it now
  363. # [17:32] <annevk2> hmm, webstorage, websockets, and workers
  364. # [17:32] <annevk2> nobody did a sanity check on the shortnames? :)
  365. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> annevk2: what's wrong with the shortnames?
  366. # [17:33] <mpilgrim> Rik|work: thanks
  367. # [17:33] <annevk2> MikeSmith, nothing much, but if either all were prefixed with web or none would've been better (preferably all, given webidl)
  368. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> annevk2: point taken
  369. # [17:35] <Philip`> Hmm, www.w3.org actually links to http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090421/ which redirects to ...23
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  376. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> the /TR versions are up now
  377. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I'll get that fixed
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  386. # [18:03] <remysharp> Is there any way, or current discussion on the audio and video tags to prevent the browser from downloading the content?
  387. # [18:04] <gsnedders> No
  388. # [18:04] <remysharp> I'm pretty new to how this works, so please humour me - but how do I start that discussion (or is it just via here!)?
  389. # [18:05] <gsnedders> remysharp: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_the_spec.3F
  390. # [18:05] <annevk5> yeah, don't like to any resource
  391. # [18:07] <remysharp> annevk2: I mean to prevent the tag from saturating the bandwidth when the tag's in heavy used on the page
  392. # [18:07] <gsnedders> remysharp: Why are you using it without wanting it to be downloaded?
  393. # [18:07] <remysharp> but then, thinking out loud, there's no way to say start loading without explicitly using some JS function
  394. # [18:07] <remysharp> gsnedders: if there's 50 audio tags on the page
  395. # [18:07] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  396. # [18:07] <remysharp> and they all come down at once
  397. # [18:07] <gsnedders> remysharp: But why would there be?
  398. # [18:07] <remysharp> then my bandwidth is going to go loopy
  399. # [18:07] <remysharp> one second - I'll give you a link
  400. # [18:08] <remysharp> http://huffduffer.com/tags/sxswi2009
  401. # [18:08] <remysharp> so this page - not 50, but a lot right?
  402. # [18:08] <remysharp> these used to be audio tags
  403. # [18:08] <remysharp> and it would fail back to flash for the play buttons
  404. # [18:09] <annevk5> that seems like something the browser should optimize
  405. # [18:09] <Rik|work> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#attr-media-autobuffer
  406. # [18:09] <remysharp> as in, don't download them in parallel?
  407. # [18:09] <Rik|work> remysharp: isn't it the purpose of autobuffer ?
  408. # [18:09] <annevk5> remysharp, as in, do whatever is best for the user
  409. # [18:09] <remysharp> Rik|work: just reading that now...
  410. # [18:10] <remysharp> so would I set this to false to tell the UA to not go and get all this data?
  411. # [18:10] <remysharp> (for example)
  412. # [18:11] <Rik|work> from what I read, it is just a hint
  413. # [18:11] <Rik|work> maybe a browser could first download media with autobuffer=true and then those with false
  414. # [18:12] <remysharp> again, just thinking out loud, but what about when mobile devices support html5 -
  415. # [18:12] <remysharp> bandwidth is a cost for some plans
  416. # [18:12] <remysharp> wouldn't we want to be able to prevent this?
  417. # [18:12] <remysharp> I guess this could boil down to the UA having to have a setting in the phone I guess.
  418. # [18:12] <jmb> is this not just something which should be left to UAs to sort out?
  419. # [18:12] <remysharp> (I guess...I guess)
  420. # [18:13] <remysharp> I'm starting to see that for the mobile case, yes.
  421. # [18:15] <gsnedders> remysharp: It's a problem for any number of images, videos, and audio files
  422. # [18:16] <remysharp> gsnedders: yeah, you're definitely right, and putting images in that context, kind of makes me see that it's definitely down to the browser.
  423. # [18:16] <remysharp> that said...
  424. # [18:17] <gsnedders> remysharp: Limited bandwidth is not a new problem, we already had it with img (esp. in the days of dial-up being normal)
  425. # [18:17] <remysharp> didn't the image tag used to have a low-rez attribute or something...
  426. # [18:17] <remysharp> like a preview on the image tag...am I making this up??
  427. # [18:17] <gsnedders> remysharp: Um, maybe HTML 3.0? It did sometime. Nobody ever implemented it. Nobody cares about it.
  428. # [18:17] <remysharp> :D
  429. # [18:17] <remysharp> okay, I was harking back a bit then!
  430. # [18:18] <gsnedders> Before I had ever used the web, I think :)
  431. # [18:18] <Philip`> Nobody implemented it?
  432. # [18:19] <Philip`> I'm sure I remember it as actually working
  433. # [18:19] <Philip`> (a long long time ago)
  434. # [18:19] <gsnedders> Well, nobody somebody. Nobody relevant with enough influence, though.
  435. # [18:19] <gsnedders> s/nobody/maybe/
  436. # [18:19] <remysharp> Philip`: I'm pretty sure it did, I'm sure I used it back then
  437. # [18:19] <Philip`> Apparently it worked in Netscape
  438. # [18:19] <remysharp> nobody relevant == me :)
  439. # [18:19] <Philip`> who had influence
  440. # [18:19] <Philip`> http://www6.uniovi.es/gifanim/gifhtml.htm
  441. # [18:20] <Philip`> "Only Netscape (that I know of) supports the Netscape extension of LOWSRC"
  442. # [18:20] <remysharp> that was the one lowsrc
  443. # [18:21] <Philip`> I guess that technique for GIF animation didn't take off
  444. # [18:21] <remysharp> I just wonder whether there's a usecase for some attribute like 'loadondemand'
  445. # [18:21] <remysharp> (for video + audio)
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  455. # [18:55] <annevk5> remysharp, you start with the use case, not the solution
  456. # [18:55] * Joins: Mustafa51 (n=mustafa@122.164.45.54)
  457. # [18:55] <annevk5> remysharp, i.e. you're doing it wrong :)
  458. # [18:55] <remysharp> annevk5: okay, so I should start with my own experience when I visited the page, and it tried to load all the audio thus slowing my connection and killing my experience
  459. # [18:56] <remysharp> it's a bit over the top - but that's the point you're making right
  460. # [18:56] <remysharp> how do we make sure the experience is still fast and not hammered by lots of things downloading that I don't want.
  461. # [18:56] <annevk5> by getting a better browser
  462. # [18:57] <remysharp> it's not the browser - it was my connection
  463. # [18:57] <Philip`> remysharp: That seems like a reasonable statement of the problem
  464. # [18:57] <remysharp> Philip`: okay, cheers.
  465. # [18:57] <remysharp> at least I post together my thoughts on it, *then* it can be poo-pooed :-)
  466. # [18:58] <remysharp> I take back what I said about connection - you could be right, maybe it's the browser, perhaps not. That I can test myself fairly easily.
  467. # [18:59] <annevk5> my point is that the browser is more likely aware of the user's available bandwidth than the website owner
  468. # [18:59] <Philip`> I guess the solutions are something like (1) require page authors to add an attribute to most of their audio elements when they've got quite a few and they think it might be bad for most of their users; (2) make browsers manage resources sensibly, by not opening a hundred socket connections at once or downloading dozens of megabytes automatically or whatever; (3) something else
  469. # [18:59] <annevk5> so if someone (between the browser and website owner) needs to be in control of bandwidth usage (and disk usage, and memory usage, etc.) it's the browser
  470. # [19:00] <Philip`> and (2) seems a solution that's likely to work better for users
  471. # [19:00] <remysharp> Sure, but as a developer of page, I'm creating a listing page with video tags, I know the user doesn't want them all at once down the wire though.
  472. # [19:00] <remysharp> (in response to annevk5)
  473. # [19:00] <annevk5> yeah, and the browser can know that too
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  475. # [19:01] <remysharp> Philip`: I definitely agree that browsers should need to be wary of concurrent downloads for audio and video tags -
  476. # [19:01] <Philip`> I assume browsers already apply their 6-connections-per-domain-name limit to media downloads?
  477. # [19:01] <remysharp> but, right now, that's limited to 2 for IE and 4(?) for FF (I think?)
  478. # [19:02] <remysharp> I thought FF was on 4.
  479. # [19:02] <Philip`> remysharp: I think it's 6 in IE8 and recent FFs etc
  480. # [19:02] <remysharp> Right, cool.
  481. # [19:02] <Philip`> at least for normal page content
  482. # [19:02] <Philip`> ("recent" might mean "not yet released"; I'm not at all sure)
  483. # [19:02] <remysharp> I guess that would actually be a big problem point then too
  484. # [19:03] <remysharp> big-ish
  485. # [19:03] <remysharp> because if there's images or scripts below the 6th video, they're all going to hang if they're the same domain
  486. # [19:03] <remysharp> obviously solved by splitting your content - but I don't think that's the point
  487. # [19:03] <Rik|work> http://stevesouders.com/ua/
  488. # [19:03] <Rik|work> check the conns/host column
  489. # [19:04] * remysharp bookmarks - cheers
  490. # [19:04] <Philip`> Rik|work: Nice, thanks
  491. # [19:04] <Rik|work> btw, webkit will be 6 conns/host soon
  492. # [19:05] <Philip`> remysharp: Only while the videos are actively downloading - the connections should be released when it's stopped buffering, and it probably shouldn't be buffering the entire video before you've started playing it
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  494. # [19:06] <remysharp> are you saying that they would buffer a bit, then move on to the next video then?
  495. # [19:06] <Philip`> I suppose I don't see why they'd buffer anything at all
  496. # [19:06] <Philip`> other than the poster image
  497. # [19:07] <remysharp> Yeah, that's the problem though - in WebKit, last I saw, the just download the whole shebang
  498. # [19:08] <remysharp> which is why Jeremy's site (the link I posted above) was changed from the audio tag to just flash
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  501. # [19:23] <Philip`> mpilgrim: "Adam Barth's [PDF] whitepaper" seems misleading, since I interpret 'whitepaper' as being a marketing document (and Wikipedia seems to agree so I must be right), whereas this thing is an actual proper academic paper (so I'd just call it a 'paper')
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  503. # [19:24] <annevk5> proper response :)
  504. # [19:24] * Joins: Mustafa51 (n=mustafa@122.164.45.54)
  505. # [19:25] <Philip`> (?)
  506. # [19:25] <annevk5> joking
  507. # [19:25] <annevk5> <datagrid> is also not quite as new as mark said
  508. # [19:26] * Philip` is confuzzled
  509. # [19:26] <annevk5> you'll get over it
  510. # [19:26] <Philip`> I may
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  533. # [20:43] <gmiernicki> <audio> +1 <video> +1
  534. # [20:43] <gmiernicki> flash -1
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  570. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: You _would_ just reference Avenue Q in your email.
  571. # [22:55] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  572. # [22:55] * gsnedders now really wants to see Avenue Q after all your references to it
  573. # [22:55] <Hixie> i've seen it THREE times
  574. # [22:55] <Hixie> it's that good
  575. # [22:55] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  576. # [22:55] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/CR-CSS2-20090423/ still hasn't fixed "BODY element in XHTML" :-(
  577. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: I mean, I was thinking about going to London in June, and there's a production there…
  578. # [22:59] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  579. # [23:01] <annevk5> zcorpan_, really?
  580. # [23:01] <annevk5> zcorpan_, might have been a resolved issue without edits, but I actually thought the edits were made too
  581. # [23:02] * gsnedders realizes how crazy his June will be
  582. # [23:02] <zcorpan_> annevk5: if an issue is resolved but not changed in the spec, could the spec go to rec without the change on the basis that there are no unresolved issues?
  583. # [23:02] <annevk5> zcorpan_, the actual text is updated I think
  584. # [23:02] <gsnedders> I have an exam on the 4th, I am away 12th to 14th at leadership training thing, and Hadrian's Wall trip is 19th to 21st, then I start internship on the 29th… And I was going to go to London too…
  585. # [23:03] * Parts: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  586. # [23:03] <zcorpan_> oh i didn't check further than the "features at risk" section
  587. # [23:03] <annevk5> zcorpan_, "For documents whose root element is an HTML "HTML" element or an XHTML "html" element [...]"
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  589. # [23:03] <annevk5> zcorpan_, I guess somebody forgot to remove that text there
  590. # [23:03] <zcorpan_> ok
  591. # [23:03] <zcorpan_> i guess they'll notice
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  593. # [23:06] <annevk5> zcorpan_, I guess the spec could go to rec btw if nobody noticed
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  598. # [23:15] <Hixie> i wonder if the e-mail i sent will trigger 15,000 replies, or zero.
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  600. # [23:15] <Hixie> i guess i'll poke at websocket then get back to microdata
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  605. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Weee… More bug reports of XML parse errors!
  606. # [23:35] <gsnedders> annevk2: Finish XML5, kthxbai.
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  609. # [23:40] <Philip`> XML parse errors should be rebranded as "XML parse bonuses", so people don't think it's so bad to encounter one and report them as bugs
  610. # [23:41] <jmb> that'll lead to competition to get the highest bonus score, though
  611. # [23:42] <annevk5> gsnedders, it seems hardly anyone cares anymore about XML these days
  612. # [23:42] <annevk5> gsnedders, I mean sure, there's the occasional issue, but nothing compared to CSS/HTML/DOM/ECMAScript
  613. # [23:42] <gsnedders> annevk5: Should we just use Aaron Swartz's suggestion of RSS 3.0?
  614. # [23:42] <gsnedders> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000574
  615. # [23:42] <annevk5> gsnedders, I'd rather we just give up on feeds and use HTML; HTML files are not that much larger
  616. # [23:43] <gsnedders> RSS 3.0 is simpler.
  617. # [23:43] <annevk5> gsnedders, though meanwhile I guess we're stuck with several flavors of RSS and Atom
  618. # [23:43] <gsnedders> (Read that page.)
  619. # [23:44] <annevk5> (I know RSS 3.0.)
  620. # [23:44] <gsnedders> (Ah, OK.)
  621. # [23:44] <gsnedders> (It wasn't obvious.)
  622. # [23:46] <jwalden> (I wonder why all recent lines of discussion have been parenthesized.)
  623. # [23:49] <Philip`> (It helps prevent the characters from falling off the edges of the sentence and making a terrible mess on the channel's carpet)
  624. # [23:51] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-15-96.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  625. # [23:51] <Philip`> (Well, it's either a carpet or a thick layer of hair and biscuit crumbs, and I'm not quite sure which)
  626. # [23:56] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip188.unival.com)
  627. # Session Close: Fri Apr 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)