/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-25 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  113. # [09:35] <yorick> the html5 boolean attributes seem to be inconsistent with the html4 ones
  114. # [09:36] <yorick> html4: <option selected="selected">contents</option>
  115. # [09:36] <yorick> html5: <div draggable="true">contents</div>
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  119. # [09:42] <yorick> also, is there a possibility to set DataTransfer on dragstart to insensitive, so it can be accessed when dragging over something?
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  122. # [09:49] <jgraham> Philip`: Can you get data on things that start <!-- but with a > and no --> before the end of the document
  123. # [09:49] * jgraham isn't quite sure how to express that as a regexp
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  129. # [10:19] <annevk5> yorick, draggable is not a boolean attribute per HTML5
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  137. # [10:32] <yorick> annevk5: then what is it?
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  139. # [10:44] <zcorpan> yorick: an enumerated attribute
  140. # [11:00] * zcorpan adds another entry to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations
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  158. # [12:45] <gsnedders> Ergh…
  159. # [12:45] * gsnedders doesn't want to sign up to another bug tracker to report a bug in Validator.nu
  160. # [13:02] <Philip`> jgraham: You mean something like, um, /<!--[^>]*(?<!-->)>([^>]|(?<!-->)>)*$/ perhaps?
  161. # [13:03] <Philip`> Whoops, not that one
  162. # [13:03] <Philip`> /<!--[^>]*(?<!--)>([^>]|(?<!--)>)*$/
  163. # [13:06] <jgraham> Philip`: Perhaps
  164. # [13:07] <jgraham> If that matches "<!-- foo > bar" and <!-- foo>" but not "<!-- foo > bar -->"
  165. # [13:08] <Philip`> It does
  166. # [13:08] * Philip` should take this opportunity to hook his grep tool up to his new set of pages...
  167. # [13:08] <jgraham> Ah, well that sounds like what I want then
  168. # [13:09] * Philip` notes that "(?<!--)" confusingly has nothing to do with the string "<!--", it's just a negative lookbehind assertion on the string "--"
  169. # [13:10] <jgraham> Ah, that makes a little more sense
  170. # [13:10] <gsnedders> And this is why you shouldn't use regex to parse HTML P
  171. # [13:10] <gsnedders> * :P
  172. # [13:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: No this is why should shouldn't have ultra-weird comment parsing
  173. # [13:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's saner than SGML.
  174. # [13:11] <jgraham> which requires lookhead
  175. # [13:12] <jgraham> s/should/you/
  176. # [13:13] <gsnedders> I don't. I have perfectly sane comment parsing, thank you very much.
  177. # [13:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: You use a sophisticated biological neural network to parse comments and it's not even that reliable. How can you describe that as sane?
  178. # [13:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Through my own insaity.
  179. # [13:14] <gsnedders> *insanity.
  180. # [13:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: Parsing it's easy, it's just like /<!(-?>|--.*?-->)/
  181. # [13:18] <Philip`> s/it's/is/
  182. # [13:19] <Philip`> Uh
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  184. # [13:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: Parsing it's easy, it's just like /<!(-?>|([^-]|--).*?-->)/
  185. # [13:19] <Philip`> s/it's/is/
  186. # [13:19] <Philip`> or something like that
  187. # [13:20] <Philip`> but anyway it's easy
  188. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I'm looking at the class="" bug now
  189. # [13:20] <Philip`> The difficulty is trying to match things that are *not* matched by the normal state machine
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  191. # [13:32] <gsnedders> How the hell do you get script to validate in HTML 4.01?
  192. # [13:32] * gsnedders stabs SGML
  193. # [13:35] <Philip`> Use <script src>
  194. # [13:35] <Philip`> If you want inline scripts, use <script src="data:text/javascript,...">
  195. # [13:38] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Just rephrase all your less-than tests :)
  196. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> from the HTML4 spec, I can't tell whether id and class are allowed to be empty or not
  197. # [13:51] <Dashiva> It says "must begin with a letter" for id
  198. # [13:52] <Dashiva> But it's taken from the SGML spec, so would probably have to look there
  199. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> hmm, the XHTML DTD defines the value of class as NMTOKENS
  200. # [13:54] <gsnedders> Yay! More undocumented differences between XHTML 1.0 and HTML 4.01!
  201. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> I think as far as the HTML4 and XHTML1 specs are concerned, the value of class can't be empty
  202. # [13:56] <Dashiva> Can't class be a list of zero class names?
  203. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: not as far as I can see, as far as XML goes
  204. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#NT-Nmtoken
  205. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> Nmtokens ::= Nmtoken (#x20 Nmtoken)*
  206. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> Nmtoken ::= (NameChar)+
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  208. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> and XHTML1 DTD says:
  209. # [13:59] <Dashiva> Fair enough. Where does it say it's NMTOKENS? xhtml1 says CDATA where I'm looking
  210. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> "class NMTOKENS #IMPLIED
  211. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> I'm looking at a DTD on my local system
  212. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> XHTML Modularization
  213. # [14:00] <gsnedders> Well, it claims to be an XHTML 1.0 schema, not an XHTML Mod. one
  214. # [14:01] <Dashiva> What I found: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/dtds.html#dtdentry_xhtml1-strict.dtd_coreattrs
  215. # [14:01] <Dashiva> I guess it's obsolete
  216. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: yeah, that's what I'm looking at now
  217. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> well, it's right, even if it's obsolete
  218. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> and XHTML modularization is wrong
  219. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> I mean, in practice at least
  220. # [14:02] <Dashiva> YSOD on empty class attribute? :)
  221. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> YSOD?
  222. # [14:03] <Dashiva> Yellow screen of death
  223. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> heh
  224. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> the HTML 4.01 DTD used by the W3C validator says "class CDATA #IMPLIED"
  225. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> and all the XHTML1 DTDs it uses says the same
  226. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> but the XHTML 1.1 DTD it uses says "class NMTOKENS #IMPLIED"
  227. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> so those mooncalfs apparently redefined it in XHTML 1.1
  228. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> I think in in validator.nu we should preserve that brokenness
  229. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> to learn people not to bother validating against XHTML 1.1
  230. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> but I see hsivonen had the foresight to not even include an XHTML1.1-checking option in validator.nu
  231. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> I wonder if they bothered to document this in the XHTML 1.1 spec
  232. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> nope
  233. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/changes.html#a_changes
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  236. # [14:22] <Philip`> jgraham: With that search thing, how many results do you want?
  237. # [14:26] <Philip`> jgraham: Actually, you can have them all
  238. # [14:27] <Philip`> jgraham: http://philip.html5.org/data/comments-not-closed-but-with-a-gt-after-them.txt
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  240. # [14:30] <jgraham> Philip`: Great, thanks
  241. # [14:38] * Philip` hopes his regexp isn't wrong
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  244. # [14:46] * jgraham hasn't checked yet
  245. # [14:47] <Philip`> <!doctype html> seems to be one of those most popular HTML5 features
  246. # [14:47] * Philip` sees it on 64 distinct domains
  247. # [14:48] <Philip`> like last.fm and pear.php.net and maps.google.com and edward.oconnor.cx and help.godaddy.com
  248. # [14:49] <Philip`> s/those most/the most/
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  256. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=85
  257. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
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  259. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=86
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  280. # [17:19] <zcorpan> jgraham: have you documented <!-- and --> in web ecmascript yet?
  281. # [17:21] <Philip`> Hmm, I've seeded that dotnetdotcom index of web pages for almost 24 hours, and there's been zero connections
  282. # [17:21] <Philip`> Torrents aren't so useful for files that nobody wants to download anyway
  283. # [17:44] <jgraham> zcorpan: No, good point
  284. # [17:45] <jgraham> Philip`: I would quite like to download it but I'm not sure that it's a good idea over my crappy/bandwidth limited home connection
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  286. # [17:46] <Philip`> jgraham: They provide plain HTTP download too, which might be more compatible with your connection
  287. # [17:47] <Philip`> and it's only 2.5GB, which is smaller than they claim
  288. # [17:49] <Philip`> And if you don't want all of it, you could just download the first N megabytes and discard the last entry
  289. # [17:49] <Philip`> where N is the largest value that still is considered a good idea to download
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  316. # [21:54] <jgraham> Hmm, unless I am missing something, it looks like (almost?) all the cases of <!-- not followed by --> are in <script> blocks
  317. # [21:54] <Philip`> I looked at three, and saw one which wasn't
  318. # [21:54] <Philip`> but I don't know which one that was
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  321. # [21:56] <jgraham> Yeah, my script is a bit buggy
  322. # [21:57] <Philip`> I hope mine wasn't
  323. # [21:57] * Philip` wishes people would independently verify his data :-)
  324. # [21:57] * jgraham would like to do that
  325. # [21:58] <jgraham> I will get some or more of that dotcomdotnet data at some point
  326. # [21:58] <Philip`> Also I hope their data isn't buggy
  327. # [21:59] <jgraham> That is, of course, quite possible
  328. # [21:59] <Philip`> I haven't seen any problems though
  329. # [22:00] <Philip`> except a few pages which seemingly return bogus HTTP responses that the HttpClient parser dies on
  330. # [22:00] <Philip`> but those could be legitimately broken servers
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  332. # [22:01] <Philip`> I guess the main question is what direction their sample is most biased in
  333. # [22:02] <Philip`> (The sample of the web that they crawl, not the sample of their crawled data that they published (which they claim is uniform, and seemingly is restricted to 200s and text/html))
  334. # [22:02] <jgraham> Philip`: How is your sample biased? html5lib is telling me that all the sites are in no-quirks mode which seems unreasonable
  335. # [22:03] <jgraham> (the small selection I looked at were compatible with that hypothesis but that was like 2 sites)
  336. # [22:05] <Philip`> jgraham: I didn't do any sampling myself
  337. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Is html5lib reliable?
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  339. # [22:05] <Philip`> Looking at a few random pages from my list, www.articlear.com/profile/Jason-Uvios/994 looks quirky
  340. # [22:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
  341. # [22:07] <jgraham> This is a good way of finding bugs in it though :)
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The end :)