/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Joins: annevk5 (n=annevk@85.196.122.246)
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  5. # [00:05] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/attr-count-pages-dotbot.txt
  6. # [00:14] <Hixie> dotbot?
  7. # [00:16] <annevk5> follow the pointers
  8. # [00:16] <annevk5> http://philip.html5.org/data/dotbot-20090424.txt
  9. # [00:16] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  10. # [00:17] <Philip`> It's a shame nobody's invented a technology that lets me embed clickable links, so I'll have to stick with text/plain for now
  11. # [00:18] <Philip`> s/with/with the limitations of/
  12. # [00:24] <annevk5> i agree that HTML is a bit too complex for the requirements; it'll never fly
  13. # [00:28] <Philip`> Ooh, HTML? Didn't think of that
  14. # [00:28] <krijnh> Isn't HTML dead by now?
  15. # [00:28] <annevk5> pretty much, XML took over
  16. # [00:29] <krijnh> Yeah, it was inevitable
  17. # [00:29] <annevk5> I read this book the other day, all Web development will switch to XSLT+XML+XML Schema+XLink+XPointer pretty soonish
  18. # [00:29] <annevk5> much cleaner and all
  19. # [00:29] <annevk5> you know, you actually close the fricking tags
  20. # [00:30] <krijnh> I already use XML strict 1.2, I don't like going back to ugly tag soup!
  21. # [00:31] <annevk5> i'm more a transitional kind of guy myself
  22. # [00:33] <krijnh> Jij ook naar Eindhoven 8 mei?
  23. # [00:33] <annevk5> New York
  24. # [00:33] <krijnh> Grmbl :)
  25. # [00:34] <annevk5> kan het ook niet helpen dat jullie alles door m'n vakanties en werkdingen doorplannen :D
  26. # [00:34] <krijnh> Sorry :$
  27. # [00:35] <annevk5> niet dat m'n agenda publikelijk is
  28. # [00:35] <krijnh> Nee idd, wilde het net vragen ;)
  29. # [00:36] <annevk5> Lachy is bang dat we plannen aan het smeden zijn om de wereld over te nemen
  30. # [00:36] <annevk5> zeg iets verdachts
  31. # [00:36] <krijnh> Heb je die bom nog gecontroleerd?
  32. # [00:37] <Hixie> hsivonen?
  33. # [00:37] <krijnh> En heb je je Hixie masker nou eindelijk eens af? :)
  34. # [00:37] * Hixie doesn't understand the difference between IE and Firefox on http://www.w3.org/mid/8EFCF205-8F9D-4098-B9DB-703A5DA7A680@iki.fi
  35. # [00:37] <jcranmer> . . .
  36. # [00:37] <annevk5> krijnh, lol ja, binnenkort op shop.whatwg.org
  37. # [00:38] <krijnh> Zeker alleen te betalen met Google Checkout?
  38. # [00:38] * Hixie ce demande ce que krijnh in annevk5 sont en train de se dire
  39. # [00:38] <Hixie> s/in/et/
  40. # [00:39] <Rik`> Hixie: se demande ;)
  41. # [00:39] <Lachy> Als je van plan bent de wereld over te nemen, doe ik mee!
  42. # [00:39] * annevk5 thinks Lachy is cheating
  43. # [00:39] <krijnh> Hixie: ce n'est pas la langue de l'amour :)
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  45. # [00:40] <krijnh> Lachy: ons eerste doel is jou dumpen, dus dat wordt nog best lastig ;]
  46. # [00:41] <Hixie> crap, it doesn't work if krijnh understands what i say!
  47. # [00:41] <krijnh> Of all languages you could have picked..
  48. # [00:42] <Hixie> unfortunately i really can only pick from two. :-)
  49. # [00:42] <Lachy> Jeg vil ta over verden uten deg
  50. # [00:43] <krijnh> That's why the Dutch will conquer the world!
  51. # [00:43] <annevk5> inderdaad; eerst met ons en nu zonder
  52. # [00:43] <annevk5> kun je niet echt op bouwen
  53. # [00:44] <krijnh> Lijkt redelijk op Nederlands
  54. # [00:45] <annevk5> Noors? ja
  55. # [00:45] <annevk5> ik begrijp ongeveer 50% en de rest verzin ik
  56. # [00:45] <krijnh> :)
  57. # [00:46] <jcranmer> Je declare que tous ici sont bête... la declaration m'inclut.
  58. # [00:46] <jcranmer> er, bêtes
  59. # [00:48] * Quits: annevk5 (n=annevk@85.196.122.246)
  60. # [00:49] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  61. # [00:49] <krijnh> C'est ce que vous obtenez lorsque vous quittez votre sens de la logique a la porte :)
  62. # [00:49] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@c-68-49-245-59.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  63. # [00:49] <jcranmer> evidement
  64. # [00:50] <Rik`> s/quittez/laissez/
  65. # [00:50] <krijnh> Baggertaal
  66. # [00:50] <jcranmer> quelqu'un a utilisé l'ordinatuer pour sa traduction? Quel horreur!
  67. # [00:50] <krijnh> Mais non!
  68. # [00:52] * krijnh hopes Hixie doesn't have access to Google Translate logs :>
  69. # [00:52] <Rik`> Le français est donc la langue officielle de HTML 5 ? La version anglaise ne sera pas normative ?
  70. # [00:53] <jcranmer> Emporte les fourches! Et les torches!
  71. # [00:53] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@c-68-49-245-59.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  72. # [00:53] <jcranmer> Nous devons demander la tête de krijnh!
  73. # [00:54] <krijnh> :o
  74. # [00:54] <krijnh> Pourquoi?
  75. # [00:55] <jcranmer> Vous avez torturé une langue! Par utiliser la traduction d'un ordinateur...
  76. # [00:56] <Rik`> jcranmer: then we need your head too for the last one :)
  77. # [00:56] <krijnh> Seulement pour un ligne des mots :)
  78. # [00:56] <gavin_> "Par utiliser"?
  79. # [00:56] <jcranmer> by using
  80. # [00:56] <Rik`> En utilisant
  81. # [00:56] <krijnh> Heh
  82. # [00:56] * gavin_ agrees with Rik`
  83. # [00:57] <jcranmer> krijnh: deux lignes...
  84. # [00:57] <jcranmer> En tout cas, je peux vivre sans ma tête...
  85. # [00:58] <krijnh> Comme un poulet?
  86. # [00:58] <jcranmer> ... ばか
  87. # [01:00] * Rik` shouldn't have missed so many japanese lessons
  88. # [01:00] <jcranmer> I've taken less than you missed
  89. # [01:00] * krijnh shouldn't use a non-unicode IRC client :)
  90. # [01:00] <jcranmer> FAIL
  91. # [01:00] <krijnh> I know
  92. # [01:01] <krijnh> Luckily the logs are okay
  93. # [01:01] <krijnh> Still doesn't make any sense, but whatever
  94. # [01:01] * jcranmer attempts to translate that into Frech
  95. # [01:01] <jcranmer> er, French
  96. # [01:01] <krijnh> Translation: Japanese English: Stupid
  97. # [01:02] <jcranmer> I'm betting that RATE wouldn't do it...
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  106. # [02:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: Re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0503.html
  107. # [02:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: Firefox appends more text to the last text node it was appending to
  108. # [02:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: IE appends more text as child of the element it previously appended text as a child
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  111. # [02:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: coalescing the text nodes if the existing last child is a text node
  112. # [02:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: so Firefox and IE are different if you insert an element from script between parser text flushes
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  115. # [02:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: can you give an example of what you mean?
  116. # [02:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: I had an example in the email
  117. # [02:49] <hsivonen> looking it up
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  119. # [02:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/flushing-document-written-text-no-alert.html is different for you in Firefox 3.5 and IE8, right?
  120. # [02:51] <Hixie> i meant like a tiny example :-)
  121. # [02:52] <Hixie> is your example basically <script>append a text node</script>x -- are there two text nodes or one?
  122. # [02:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: no, the crux is the line document.getElementById("foo").appendChild(document.createElement("span"))
  123. # [02:53] <Hixie> my confusion is with "Firefox appends more text to the last text node it was appending to", since if a script is running, the last text node it inserted into was the <script>'s child node
  124. # [02:53] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  125. # [02:54] <Hixie> you're saying you want <script>write 'aaa'; append element node</script>bbb to result in "aaabbb element node" rather than "aaa element node bbb"?
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  127. # [02:54] <Hixie> i'm very confused
  128. # [02:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: former in Firefox, latter in IE
  129. # [02:55] <Hixie> well clearly imho aaabbb element is outright incorrect.
  130. # [02:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: you want to spec what IE does?
  131. # [02:56] <hsivonen> WebKit is element aaabbb, IIRC
  132. # [02:56] <hsivonen> and Opera
  133. # [02:56] <Hixie> the spec already requires the text after the <script> to come after whatever state the DOM is in after the script executes.
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  135. # [02:58] <Hixie> element aaa bbb is definitely wrong per spec, it means the parser isn't re-entrant.
  136. # [02:58] <Hixie> (or acts as if it's not, which is worse)
  137. # [02:58] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/026-demo.html
  138. # [02:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: the webkit/opera behavior flows naturally from a late-flushed accumulation buffer
  139. # [02:59] <Hixie> webkit's behaviour is clearly wrong.
  140. # [02:59] <Hixie> then a late-flushed accumulation buffer is a bad dea.
  141. # [02:59] <Hixie> idea
  142. # [02:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's 2 out of 4 :-)
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  144. # [03:00] <hsivonen> I'll have to get back on this when I have a decent text input method
  145. # [03:00] <Hixie> IE's behaviour in http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/026-demo.html is what the spec requires
  146. # [03:00] <Hixie> and is the only behaviour i've found in the four browsers i tested that is even remotely sane.
  147. # [03:01] <Hixie> anyway, as i noted in my e-mail reply, just use the text node's own buffer as the buffer
  148. # [03:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: you have an interesting notion of sane
  149. # [03:01] <Hixie> and then you get IE's behaviour for free
  150. # [03:01] <Hixie> really? you don't think having things come out in the order they were written is sane?
  151. # [03:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: nope, then you get the Firefox behavior
  152. # [03:02] <Hixie> you only get firefox's behaviour if you don't check to make sure the text node is still the last child each time a script runs
  153. # [03:02] <Hixie> (which is a trivial pointer test)
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  155. # [03:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: my independent implementation matched webkit and opera, and I like to think I'm sane
  156. # [03:02] <Hixie> i'm not saying the implementor isn't sane
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  158. # [03:03] <Hixie> i'm saying that having nodes come out in an order different than the order they went in is unintuitive
  159. # [03:03] <hsivonen> depends on whether your intuition is buffered :-)
  160. # [03:04] <Hixie> reload http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/026-demo.html
  161. # [03:04] <Hixie> i really think that only IE's behaviour here matches author expectations
  162. # [03:04] <Hixie> and i don't buy that it's hard to implement.
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  164. # [03:05] <hsivonen> I guess I'll have to implement it then, even though WebKit and Opera have gotten away with the simple behavior
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  167. # [03:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: simpler for authors is more important than simpler for implementors :-)
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  172. # [03:58] <hsivonen> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200904/msg00062.html
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  174. # [03:59] <hsivonen> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200904/msg00061.html
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  181. # [05:11] <Hixie> heycam: be snarky here instead :-)
  182. # [05:12] <heycam> #whatwg are indeed the go-to guys for snark!
  183. # [05:13] <heycam> if i'm going to spend some time doing something, it may as well be to fix things rather than snark about them, anyway
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  185. # [05:16] <Hixie> boring!
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  187. # [05:18] <heycam> :)
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  209. # [07:47] <heycam> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/UBOOP.pdf
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  213. # [08:11] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2009AprJun/0035.html
  214. # [08:11] <Hixie> i wonder if at our next rechartering we can get the htmlwg chartered to 2022 on the same basis
  215. # [08:12] <Hixie> "here are some realistic times"
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  243. # [11:05] <annevk2> Hixie, I e-mailed some comments on webstorage last Friday and it seems they had some delay while getting to the list
  244. # [11:05] <annevk2> Hixie, do you have them?
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  264. # [13:15] <zcorpan> yay http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#HTML_comments
  265. # [13:17] <annevk2> yay as in mess?
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  267. # [13:25] <jgraham> annevk2: What do you mean. The IE behaviour is toatlly sane and I can't see why everyone doesn't do that
  268. # [13:26] <jgraham> (beware: low-flying sarcasm)
  269. # [13:29] <Philip`> SpiderMonkey's behaviour is different if you use ;version=something-large-enough or ;e4x=1
  270. # [13:30] <jgraham> The e4x thing makes sense
  271. # [13:30] <jgraham> But the version thng?
  272. # [13:30] <Philip`> I might be lying about that
  273. # [13:30] <zcorpan> i don't find any differences with version=1.8
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  275. # [13:31] <Philip`> Oh, I'm not lying
  276. # [13:31] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/js/jsversion.html - see the "<!-- 1 -->" line
  277. # [13:31] <Philip`> (in Firefox)
  278. # [13:32] <zcorpan> but <!-- 1 --> is not "line that starts with just whitespace and comments is treated as a line comment" is it?
  279. # [13:33] <zcorpan> s//a/
  280. # [13:33] <Philip`> No, but it's an HTML comment in the script, and the behaviour is different between ;versions
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  287. # [13:55] <hendry> what's the issue with DOMTimeStamp? http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2009/001994.html
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  291. # [13:58] <hendry> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#Core-DOMTimeStamp DOMTimeStamp is long for non-JS
  292. # [13:58] <Philip`> hendry: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-February/018487.html and associated thread seems relevant
  293. # [13:59] <hendry> urgh
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  304. # [14:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: "The rules right now are really simple -- you only need quotes if your value includes spaces, quotes, or equal signs." ...or greater than
  305. # [14:22] * Joins: timblair (n=timblair@82.108.232.226)
  306. # [14:23] <Philip`> or if your value is the empty string
  307. # [14:31] <zcorpan> there you go, it's not actually really simple :)
  308. # [14:32] <zcorpan> and if you care about compat with firefox or safari or ie or opera then it becomes more complicated still
  309. # [14:33] <zcorpan> which is not documented in the spec
  310. # [14:33] <zcorpan> s/opera/old versions of opera/
  311. # [14:34] <jgraham> So it's only simple if you don't learn any rules except to always quote attribute values
  312. # [14:35] <jgraham> Which conincidentially is the fashion amonst hip web developers
  313. # [14:36] <Philip`> It's the fashion amongst pretty much all web developers, not just hip ones, as far as I can see
  314. # [14:37] <Philip`> (judging by http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/stats/tokeniser.html having 6902804 double-quoted characters, vs 387236 single-quoted and 376258 unquoted
  315. # [14:37] <Philip`> )
  316. # [14:38] <jgraham> Oh well maybe it's only the hip web developers who go around telling other people how uncool they are for not using quotes
  317. # [14:39] <zcorpan> so unquoted attributes are as common as single quoted attributes?
  318. # [14:41] <zcorpan> i.e. about 0.05%
  319. # [14:41] <Philip`> jgraham: It's the web developers who have gone *beyond* hip, who omit needless tags and quotes and everything
  320. # [14:41] <Philip`> and often omit compatibility with real web browsers too
  321. # [14:41] <Philip`> zcorpan: Only if you trust my data, which you shouldn't
  322. # [14:42] <Philip`> because it's counting numbers of tokeniser state transitions that are not uppercase letters or ampersands etc
  323. # [14:42] <zcorpan> Philip`: it was the only data i had at hand :)
  324. # [14:42] <Philip`> rather than counting something useful like number of attributes
  325. # [14:43] <Philip`> (But that's the only data I've acquired from an instrumented tokeniser, so I don't have anything better)
  326. # [14:43] * Philip` tries to find the quote he's thinking of
  327. # [14:44] <zcorpan> Philip`: can unquoted attributes go through more state transitions than a single quoted attribute because of entities?
  328. # [14:44] <Philip`> jgraham: It's only the web developers who are so hip they can hardly see over their pelvises
  329. # [14:45] <Philip`> zcorpan: I don't think entities make a difference; I was just counting the number of times the "Anything else" transition is encountered
  330. # [14:45] <Philip`> Uh
  331. # [14:45] <Philip`> Did I say something about uppercase letters?
  332. # [14:45] <Philip`> Please ignore that entirely
  333. # [14:47] <Philip`> Ooh, actually my data probably does say how many attributes there were
  334. # [14:48] <Philip`> BeforeAttributeValueState: currentCharacter == 34 -- 366746
  335. # [14:48] <Philip`> BeforeAttributeValueState: true -- 52451
  336. # [14:48] <Philip`> BeforeAttributeValueState: currentCharacter == 39 -- 17591
  337. # [14:48] <Philip`> which are (respectively) the starts of double-quoted, unquoted and single-quoted attribute values
  338. # [14:48] <Philip`> ("true" means the "Anything else" case)
  339. # [14:49] <Philip`> One can thus conclude that double-quoted attribute values have average length 19 characters, single-quoted 22, and unquoted 7
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  341. # [14:52] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, actually it might be pelves
  342. # [14:57] <zcorpan> so 84% double-quoted, 12% unquoted and 4% single-quoted
  343. # [14:58] <Philip`> Something like that
  344. # [14:58] <Philip`> based on a small, unspecified, biased sample of pages
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  350. # [15:08] <Lachy> The rules for unquoted attributes are relatively simple because most of the special characters that require quotes are rather intuitive becuase they're the characters that have some other special meaning in the tag
  351. # [15:11] <Philip`> Is it intuitive that you have to include quotes if the value contains U+000C?
  352. # [15:12] <Philip`> where "intuitive" means you don't have to read the spec in detail to discover it
  353. # [15:18] <Philip`> (And if you're implementing an HTML5 serialiser, and even if you do read the spec in detail, is it intuitive that you also have to include quotes when the value contains ` or < ?)
  354. # [15:23] <Lachy> Philip`, yes, because '>' is the character used to end the tag, so it seems fairly obvious that in <span class=foo>bar..., the attribute only contains "foo"
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  357. # [15:41] <zcorpan> Lachy: he didn't ask about ">"
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  363. # [15:57] <drostie> so, an idea that came up in developer.mozilla.org/Talk:En/JavaScript intrigued me, although the way that the poster presented it was ill-defined.
  364. # [15:59] <drostie> A lot of people spend a lot of time with bad or generic parsers against XSS. HTML 5 could really reduce this problem if it included a <sandbox> element or so, which restricted the sorts of things you find in XSS exploits anyway. The parser would only have to check for <sandbox> and </sandbox> tags instead of *everything* that could launch a script.
  365. # [15:59] <drostie> The browser would make sure, e.g., that a <b> tag started inside of a sandbox didn't leave it, and that scripts didn't execute within the sandbox, and so forth.
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  367. # [16:01] <jgraham> Philip`: What was the sample size for the comment data that you got for me (i.e. the total number of pages)
  368. # [16:01] <drostie> The only thing I'm thinking is that it would probably play not-nice with DOM methods.
  369. # [16:03] <jgraham> drostie: That has been discussed before and it turns out to not be quite as simple as you would hope. Ill let someone else explain though (or you can check the mail archives)
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  371. # [16:06] * drostie goes a-searching ^_^
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  373. # [16:06] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh it says. I am blind :)
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  376. # [16:07] <Philip`> jgraham: I guess it was the 425K pages?
  377. # [16:08] <Philip`> jgraham: Being blind is not an excuse for failing to read the plain text that says where the data came from :-p
  378. # [16:09] <Philip`> I suppose one problem with this dataset is it's going to be heavily biased towards sites with many pages
  379. # [16:09] <Philip`> e.g. a forum which exposes a million URLs will be a million times more likely to be included in the sample than a site that's just a single page
  380. # [16:10] <Philip`> (though the population is large enough that a single site doesn't occur more than dozens of times, if I remember correctly)
  381. # [16:10] <zcorpan> drostie: if those pages would use HTML5 parsers instead of "generic parsers", wouldn't the XSS problems go away?
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  383. # [16:12] <drostie> zcorpan: that would depend -- but it's much easier to use a generic parser that replaces < and > with character entities than it is to write an HTML5 parser.
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  385. # [16:13] <annevk2> drostie, there's a plan to address that through <iframe doc="string of html" seamless sandbox></iframe> iirc
  386. # [16:13] <drostie> But jgraham is right, there's a *lot* of discussion about this idea on the mailing list; and one good reason it will never work is because you will always need to parse the content anyway, for legacy clients.
  387. # [16:14] <drostie> anne: I'll look at that as well. :D
  388. # [16:14] <annevk2> drostie, the fallback would be a src=cross-origin
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  390. # [16:14] <annevk2> drostie, note that doc= is not defined currently
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  392. # [16:16] <Philip`> zcorpan: They would have to use HTML5 parsers plus sanitisers that have zero bugs
  393. # [16:16] <Philip`> plus serialisers that have zero bugs
  394. # [16:16] <jgraham> Philip`: Only zero bugs that result in exploitable holes
  395. # [16:16] <Philip`> and also browsers must not be buggy or non-standard
  396. # [16:16] <Philip`> Then you'll be secure
  397. # [16:18] <Philip`> In the meantime, the 'defence in depth' thing seems like a good idea
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  421. # [17:32] <gsnedders> Oh dear
  422. # [17:32] * gsnedders finds photos of him
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  516. # [21:45] <jgraham> Note to the people who designed github: I am really stupendeously uninterested in whether I get a zip file or a tar.gz file
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  533. # [22:22] <Philip`> jgraham: I imagine other people might care, since Windows users can only read zip, and users of more functional OSes can read both but .tar.gz is often much more efficient
  534. # [22:23] * Joins: annevk5 (n=annevk@85.196.122.246)
  535. # [22:27] <jgraham> Philip`: There is no excuse for making the UI "click a link marked download, get a modal overlay thing sking what type of file I want". In almost all cases the extra efficiency of tar.gz will save much less download time than the extra time taken to deal with unexpected popup
  536. # [22:28] <jgraham> So just going with zip would be fine
  537. # [22:28] <jgraham> Or if they really think people need a choice it should be two different links
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  539. # [22:31] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, that does sound a bit annoying
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  542. # [22:41] <gsnedders> Somebody teach me how to solve first and second order differential equations.
  543. # [22:41] * Philip` forgets what first and second order differential equations are
  544. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Things in the Advanced Higher maths course :)
  545. # [22:43] <Philip`> That's not an entirely helpful description
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  550. # [22:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: In general it's not possible or at least not easy, I think. But you only need to know special forms, not in general
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  553. # [22:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: So if you really want help you'll need to be more specific about what you want to know
  554. # [22:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: What is required in the AH course.
  555. # [22:55] <gsnedders> :P
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  558. # [23:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: The bit of the syllabus that I found so far talks about equations in the form dy/dx = F(x)/G(y)
  559. # [23:02] <gsnedders> No, not them
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  562. # [23:02] * gsnedders googles for ah maths and finds his school's website
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  565. # [23:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: you mean ones like a(x)dy/dx + b(x)y = f(x)?
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  567. # [23:04] <gsnedders> yeah
  568. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Search http://www.sqa.org.uk/files_ccc/Maths_AH_5th_ed.pdf for differential equations
  569. # [23:05] <jgraham> Ah, well you do what it say then. You rearrange it to the form dy/dx + F(x)y = G(x)
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  571. # [23:06] <jgraham> and notice that multiplyin both sides by exp(int(F(x), dx)) gives you something that you can write as an exact differential
  572. # [23:08] <jgraham> since d/dx(y*exp(int(F(x, dx)))) = F(x)exp(int(F(x), dx)))*y + dy/dx*exp(int(F(x),dx))
  573. # [23:09] <jgraham> (excude the probably mismtched brackets)
  574. # [23:10] <jgraham> That's applying the chain rule to d/dx(exp(g(x)) where g(x) happens to be an integral
  575. # [23:10] * gsnedders badly needs to learn maths
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  577. # [23:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: The important thing to realise is that a) you can't do everyhing "forwards"; someimes you need to know/intuit the answer
  578. # [23:11] <jgraham> and b) you can get a long way with practice
  579. # [23:11] <gsnedders> Well, for b) I have four weeks until the exam
  580. # [23:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well make good use of it :)
  581. # [23:13] <gsnedders> This week I'm kinda stuck with second prelims and ball, so only three weeks really
  582. # [23:13] <gsnedders> ahhhh
  583. # [23:14] * Philip` notes that balls aren't really very productive, so you could spend that time doing fun maths instead
  584. # [23:14] <gsnedders> And ditch the gorgeous girl I'm meant to be going with now? :P
  585. # [23:14] <Philip`> Sure
  586. # [23:15] <Philip`> It's statistically unlikely that you'll marry her, so it's just a waste of time in the long run
  587. # [23:15] <gsnedders> LOL
  588. # [23:17] * jgraham sees a flaw in that argument
  589. # [23:17] <jgraham> Well I say one, but that's really an insult to arguments with just one flaw
  590. # [23:17] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  591. # [23:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: I am, however, avoiding being overly unproductive by not going to the afterball
  592. # [23:19] <Philip`> I suppose it depends on how much value you place on fleeting happiness
  593. # [23:22] <jgraham> Philip`: Not at all. It assumes that the experience will have a negligible impact on your future life
  594. # [23:22] <jgraham> Which seems like an entirely unsupportable hypothesis
  595. # [23:23] <jgraham> (it also assumes that marriage is a end unto something which is rather sily)
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  602. # [23:40] * jgraham notes that gsnedders should in no way use his previous argument to prioritise the ball over maths revision :)
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  610. # Session Close: Tue Apr 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)