/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-28 / end

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  8. # [00:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: Sorry, but, girl I'm going with > you.
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  123. # [08:36] <jgraham> html5lib now with a hg repo
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  125. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> jgraham: cool
  126. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> jgraham: google code provides hg as an option?
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  131. # [08:44] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, it is experimental at the moment
  132. # [08:44] <jgraham> I haven't actually tried yet to se if it works :)
  133. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I notice on Google Code blog:
  134. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> "given that Google Code's infrastructure is built for HTTP-based services, we found that Mercurial had the best protocol and performance characteristics for HTTP support. For more information, see our analysis."
  135. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> that's an interesting statement
  136. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> I wonder what the git people would say about that
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  139. # [08:51] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Maybe they would say "In a market with two rather similar, both popular, products they did careful analysis and concluded that the other product was a better fir for their needs. Bravo on such dilligence in assessing the best solution!". But I doubt it somehow
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  141. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> jgraham: their http://code.google.com/p/support/wiki/DVCSAnalysis doc is worth reading
  142. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> I pointed W3C system team at it; maybe will help inform decisions about what DCVS to use at W3C
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  144. # [08:58] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, I saw that.
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  146. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: but hey, no reason why that should let us choose to favor a "custom stateful protocol" rather than a stateless HTTP one
  147. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> I mean because, what evidence do we have to suggest that this stateless HTTP approach to things really works?
  148. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> we need to remain skeptical until we see some proof of that
  149. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> in the mean time, we can do like those guys did: Assume we know better, and invent more custom stateless stuff.
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  156. # [09:34] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  157. # [09:40] * zcorpan does not understand role="math"
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  159. # [09:54] <jgraham> zcorpan: In what sense?
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  161. # [09:57] <jgraham> The use case seems to be <img src="equation.gif" role="math" alt="\int_0_y x^{2} \d x" aria-describedBy="a"><p id="a">The integral between 0 and y of x squared dx</p>
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  163. # [09:59] <jgraham> Of which only the last part is really silly because e.g. a LaTeX to HTML convertor could produce both equaton.gif and the alt text, and there is AT that understands some LaTeX
  164. # [09:59] <jgraham> Although it might not do much for non AT users and would probably not work in any reasonably complex LaTeX scenario with e.g. custom macros
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  176. # [10:36] <zcorpan_> jgraham: will you post the --!> and --\s*> findings to the list?
  177. # [10:42] <zcorpan_> jgraham: apparently role="math" is appropriate for MathML, too
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  179. # [10:43] * annevk2 has the feeling aria-describedby is way too generic to succeed
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  184. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> annevk2: please convey my appreciation to whomever it was that made the opera retro page happen
  185. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> that thing is great
  186. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> they just should have kept it there for longer
  187. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> but glad that I caught it when it was live
  188. # [10:55] <annevk2> it's still there for me
  189. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> hmm, it's showing the normal start page for me now
  190. # [10:56] <annevk2> if you tweak the URL you should get it back
  191. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> OK
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  194. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> anyway, the Opera spirit is great
  195. # [10:58] <takkaria> I like Opera
  196. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> the humor, not taking itself deadly seriously all the time
  197. # [10:58] <takkaria> they offered me an internship
  198. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> takkaria: not surprised. Opera definitely has a knack for finding and recruiting smart people
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  203. # [11:01] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Or they just offer internships to everybody :-)
  204. # [11:01] <annevk2> congrats takkaria
  205. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> Philip`: hmm, they never offered me an internship
  206. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> I feel left out
  207. # [11:04] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: you can apply for one
  208. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> cool, I didn't know I still had time
  209. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: how much does the gig pay?
  210. # [11:05] <takkaria> annevk2: cheers
  211. # [11:05] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: no idea
  212. # [11:05] <takkaria> does anyone here work in the Linköping office?
  213. # [11:06] <zcorpan_> me and jgraham
  214. # [11:07] <takkaria> oh, great :)
  215. # [11:09] * Parts: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  216. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: do people in Linköping office still use that Emacs-based messaging thing instead of IRC?
  217. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> something-COM or COM-something
  218. # [11:10] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: yes, LysKOM
  219. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: do you use it?
  220. # [11:10] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: yes i have to :)
  221. # [11:11] <jgraham> Yay LysKOM
  222. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> I guess I should instead ask, do you like using it?
  223. # [11:11] <zcorpan_> although i read it just once a week or so
  224. # [11:11] <zcorpan_> no i hate it
  225. # [11:11] <jgraham> Reinventing the wheel but making it triangular and spiky
  226. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> heh
  227. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> good description
  228. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> I don't know what they like about that thing
  229. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> I mean, I can see it being having some use
  230. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> but not as an IRC replacement
  231. # [11:12] <zcorpan_> it's something in between irc and email
  232. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: right, but more of a worst-of-both-worlds combination of the two
  233. # [11:13] <zcorpan_> don't disagree
  234. # [11:14] <jgraham> The choice of clients seems to be a) a webbased client that breaks the back button and intermitttently gets confused about whether there are new messages or b) an emacs-based client
  235. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> jgraham: there's a curses-based client too, I seem to remember
  236. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> I think that's what I used, when I needed to
  237. # [11:15] <jgraham> Really?
  238. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> yeah, somewhere
  239. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> I think I found it less painful than Emacs
  240. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> http://www.lysator.liu.se/lyskom/klienter/ttyklient/
  241. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> I guess
  242. # [11:19] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  243. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/net/lyskom-tty-client
  244. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> is hsivonen site using downloadable fonts?
  245. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> 3MB and counting...
  246. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> 4MB+
  247. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: anyway, you updated http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ today, I guess?
  248. # [11:25] * MikeSmith sees <!DOCTYPE html> among the recommendations there now
  249. # [11:25] <Philip`> It sounds somewhat ironically like the Emacs client elicits more curses than the curses-based client
  250. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> heh
  251. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> actually, I see now it just says "TTY-based client"
  252. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> and package seems to depend only on libc6 package
  253. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> man, hsivonen got a truckload of downloadable fonts on his pages
  254. # [11:31] * Quits: riven (n=colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  256. # [11:31] <Philip`> Not as many as on my page, I'm sure
  257. # [11:32] <jgraham> MikeSmith: It also says "With lyskom you can connect to your favourite LysKOM"
  258. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> well, your page has a specific demonstration purpose
  259. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> heh
  260. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> "your favourite LysKOM"
  261. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> that kind of limits things
  262. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> to zero
  263. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> zero choices there
  264. # [11:33] <jgraham> Indeed. It seems entirely unsutiable for my purposes
  265. # [11:33] <Philip`> "favourite" is relative
  266. # [11:33] <Philip`> like how you could have a favourite evil dictator
  267. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> "With lyskom you can connect to your least-despised LysKOM"
  268. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> "With lyskom you can connect to the LysKOM you have a need to use even though you hate it"
  269. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> so I'm wondering if the size/number of fonts at hsivonen site is atypical, or if a typical site that uses downloadable is going to be in similar range
  270. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> ~5.1MB
  271. # [11:36] <zcorpan_> depends on whether they use Philip`'s service or not
  272. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> or 6.4MB actually, on my Mac
  273. # [11:36] * Philip` wonders how he could make his service more usable
  274. # [11:37] <Philip`> I suppose it'd be nice if the TTF+EOT thing wasn't such a horrid hack that results in IE making a 404 request for every font
  275. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> speaking of usable, Web Inspector UI is great for getting at this info
  276. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> download time/speed, I mean
  277. # [11:38] <Philip`> Also I suppose it'd be nice if you could ask for e.g. all ASCII letters, or all European letters, rather than having to type in exactly the characters you want
  278. # [11:38] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Better than Firebug?
  279. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I like it better at least
  280. # [11:39] <Philip`> Firebug handily alerted me to the issue that my pages were all taking 15 seconds to finish loading
  281. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I really wish mozilla would just make Firebug a standard part of Firefox
  282. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> or at least of Minefield
  283. # [11:40] <Philip`> (since I had a (Fast)CGI script outputting some text/html with a Content-Length, and Apache was set to automatically compress text/html, but it doesn't change the Content-Length when compressing, so Squid was spending 15 seconds waiting for more content before timing out, I think)
  284. # [11:41] * jgraham got a couple of crashes when he trie to use WI with Safari 4
  285. # [11:42] <Philip`> MikeSmith: That sounds like needless bloat for a hundred million users who are never going to do any web development
  286. # [11:42] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-fb9db4fc304bdc0f) ("leaving")
  287. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, I suppose so, for the FF case at least
  288. # [11:42] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-81082fb891eac9ce)
  289. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> but seems it has some obvious practical use for bundling in Minefield
  290. # [11:43] <Philip`> MikeSmith: People who willingly install Minefield ought to know how to install an extension - it only takes a minute when you're first setting up your profile
  291. # [11:44] <jgraham> The big problem is when it is incompatible with minefield.latest
  292. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> right
  293. # [11:44] <Philip`> Then use some other extension that makes extensions compatible
  294. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> and I bet there are still people who don't install Firebug with Minefield anyway
  295. # [11:44] <Philip`> like https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6543
  296. # [11:44] <jgraham> Philip`: No, when it is actually incompatible
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  298. # [11:46] <Philip`> jgraham: In that case bundling it with Minefield wouldn't help, because it would still be incompatible until somebody fixed it
  299. # [11:46] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you should make your service more discoverable using google, too
  300. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> Philip`: exactly what you said
  301. # [11:47] <Philip`> zcorpan_: But that might result in people using it, which would be bad because it's inefficient and buggy and ugly :-)
  302. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> a change that breaks Firebug is a change that should be backed out before the nightly is built
  303. # [11:47] <jgraham> Philip`: It would help because it wwould have to be treated at the same priority level as other features
  304. # [11:48] <Philip`> jgraham: It could be treated at the same priority level as other features without being bundled with Minefield
  305. # [11:49] <Philip`> by appropriate changes to development policy and to the automatic tests
  306. # [11:49] <jgraham> Philip`: Sure. But it is less likely to actually happen
  307. # [11:49] <zcorpan_> Philip`: maybe you could use spellchecking dictionaries to determine which characters to include for different languages
  308. # [11:49] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Punctuation
  309. # [11:49] <Philip`> jgraham: But more likely to actually happen than bundling with Minefield
  310. # [11:50] <Philip`> since it's a necessary step before bundling with Minefield, and therefore a subset of the challenge
  311. # [11:50] * Joins: riven` (n=colin@5ED0BC66.cable.ziggo.nl)
  312. # [11:51] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Or look through the textual content of web pages that use different languages, to see what characters they use
  313. # [11:51] <Philip`> (which would be better at finding punctuation and digits and ASCII and copyright symbols, I guess)
  314. # [11:53] <Philip`> But it'd probably be easier to just go by Unicode blocks
  315. # [11:55] <zcorpan_> i guess the copyright symbol should be present for all languages
  316. # [11:55] <Philip`> Not if you only want to use the font for your logo, though
  317. # [11:55] <zcorpan_> right
  318. # [11:56] <Philip`> Perhaps what we should do is invent a new dynamic font format, so the web browser can download glyphs automatically on-demand without having to download irrelevant junk
  319. # [11:57] * Quits: quuxbaz (n=palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com) (":qa!")
  320. # [11:58] <Philip`> (EOT seems to have a primitive form of that idea, by copying various font properties to a header at the start of the file, so the browser can simply download the first chunk and decide whether it can use this font (because it covers the right character range, or has the right font style, etc) instead of having to download the entire file and then search through it for the same information in arbitrary unpredictable locations)
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  323. # [12:07] <Philip`> Hmm, it looks like people have actually used my font thing
  324. # [12:07] <Philip`> since there's ~500 fonts in the output cache
  325. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> Philip`: could be people just trying it without actually using the fonts
  326. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> Philip`: btw the output page doesn't have a <title>
  327. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> last i checked
  328. # [12:11] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-28-12.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  329. # [12:11] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Oops
  330. # [12:13] * Philip` fixes
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  482. # [14:12] <annevk2> MikeSmith: http://www.opera.com/?flashed=0 lets you revisit the home page
  483. # [14:12] * annevk2 wonders if home pages are archived somewhere
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  487. # [14:32] <hendry> Hixie: noticed a typo in html5 index, %s/initalize/initialize/
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  491. # [14:47] <zcorpan_> <div class="float-left padding-top-5 padding-bottom-9 width-385"> -- http://www.thetimes.co.uk
  492. # [14:50] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  493. # [14:51] <Philip`> zcorpan_: They're not the only ones - e.g. www.grownups.co.nz/profile/viewPublicProfile/id/8209 has a class="border-left-blue border-right-blue padding-left-10 padding-right-10 padding-bottom-5"
  494. # [14:51] <Philip`> www.paintingmax.com/shop-style-ashcan-school-c-3_304.html?sort=2d - class="padding-10px"
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  496. # [14:52] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  497. # [14:52] <Philip`> surfingshot.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4432 - class="padding-2px"
  498. # [14:52] <Philip`> etc
  499. # [14:52] * Philip` wonders if these sites picked up that trick from a common source
  500. # [14:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ says "emumerate"
  501. # [14:59] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  502. # [14:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: "Testing image alignment with Internet Explorer is inadequate however be sure to test in IE8, too." is confusing to read, and maybe could do with some punctuation around the 'however'
  503. # [15:03] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  504. # [15:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: "To put it another way, if you have #include "foo.h", you should not bind any black magic to the name foo.h, because it should be permissible to paste the contents of foo.h inline or copy the contents of foo.h to bar.h and say #include "bar.h"."
  505. # [15:07] <Philip`> Modern compilers do do black magic when you have #include "foo.h", e.g. GCC will look for a precompiled header named foo.gch
  506. # [15:08] <Philip`> and if foo.h contains "#pragma once" then MSVC will treat #include "foo.h"; #include "foo.h" differently to how it treats #include "foo.h"; #include "differently-named-copy-of-foo.h"
  507. # [15:09] <Philip`> I suppose #pragma once is generally considered a bad idea, but precompiled headers a good idea, and they're definitely black magic
  508. # [15:09] <Philip`> (but they're magic which only affects performance, not functionality, which seems like a significant difference)
  509. # [15:12] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
  510. # [15:18] * Disconnected
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  512. # [15:19] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  513. # [15:19] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  514. # [15:19] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  515. # [15:19] * zcorpan_ wonders why testing image alignment in IE8 is inadequate
  516. # [15:53] * Disconnected
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  518. # [15:53] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  519. # [15:53] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  520. # [15:53] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  521. # [15:53] <krijnh> Philip`: sup? :)
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  526. # [15:56] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  527. # [15:56] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  528. # [17:22] * Disconnected
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  531. # [17:22] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  532. # [17:22] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  533. # [17:24] <annevk2> hsivonen, there's <table><tr><td><p><\/tbody> <\/table> in a document.write in Acid3 that assumes the space is still there after parsing
  534. # [17:24] <annevk2> hsivonen, Opera initially failed that
  535. # [17:24] <hsivonen> grrr!
  536. # [17:24] <annevk2> hsivonen, not a 100% sure it affects what you're discussing but I thought I'd bring it up
  537. # [17:25] <hsivonen> annevk2: what's "there"
  538. # [17:26] <annevk2> hsivonen, bottom of the page has the document.write
  539. # [17:26] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-bff08574d461603b)
  540. # [17:26] <hsivonen> inside table?
  541. # [17:26] * riven` is now known as riven
  542. # [17:26] <annevk2> hsivonen, it writes a <table> including a space
  543. # [17:27] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247) ("Ex-Chat")
  544. # [17:28] * gsnedders has his internet get really slow
  545. # [17:28] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/98 is the same for me in Gecko/HTML5, WebKit and Opera
  546. # [17:29] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  547. # [17:30] <annevk2> since Opera 10, yes
  548. # [17:32] <annevk2> we used to ignore whitespace at certain places in tables during parsing
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  552. # [17:44] <hendry> is there an EU mirror of whatwg.org/html5? :)
  553. # [17:46] <Philip`> hendry: What's wrong with America? It's only a hundred milliseconds away :-)
  554. # [17:49] * hendry wonders how http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/index is split up to multipage
  555. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> hendry: Philip` does it manually every time Hixie commits
  556. # [17:52] <hendry> hah
  557. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> hendry:
  558. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py
  559. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py
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  564. # [17:56] <Philip`> hendry: That spec-splitter script runs on my server, and Hixie executes it and then downloads the output
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  566. # [17:58] <jgraham> Don't believe Philip`; that script is just for show. He actually has a highly trained team of bees that read the spec and output the html for the split spec as a pattern of filled an unfilled cells in their hive
  567. # [17:58] * Joins: annevk5 (n=annevk@85.196.122.246)
  568. # [17:58] <Philip`> I love bees
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  572. # [18:03] <hendry> Philip`: don't laugh now, did you try xsl?
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  574. # [18:04] * jgraham wonders wwhen he should laugh
  575. # [18:07] <jgraham> How can xsl possibly compete with the massive concurrency of a whole swarm of bees
  576. # [18:07] <jgraham> ?
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  579. # [18:12] <hendry> i ran xsltproc on html5's index today to extract pre[@class='idl'] and I was impressed how fast it was.
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  583. # [18:13] <Philip`> hendry: The difficulty with XSL is that I don't understand it
  584. # [18:14] <Philip`> particularly for complex things like splitting a document in multiple parts and gluing the right headers and inter-page navigation and fixing hashed links and stuff
  585. # [18:14] <Philip`> (and particularly since I've never cared to try learning XSL)
  586. # [18:15] * Quits: roc (n=roc@65.123.0.210)
  587. # [18:15] <Philip`> whereas I had already learned Python and knew how to use it
  588. # [18:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: But parsing the spec is slow in Python.
  589. # [18:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: No it's not, since I use lxml's parser
  590. # [18:16] <gsnedders> Cheat.
  591. # [18:16] <Philip`> It's all your fault for not making html5lib fast enough
  592. # [18:17] <gsnedders> I'm not the one who was optimizing it.
  593. # [18:17] <jgraham> Philip`: Isn't that your fault? I thought thte deal was that I worked on making it slower, you worked on making it faster, gsnedders hecked from the sidelines?
  594. # [18:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's why it's your fault
  595. # [18:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: s/hecked/hacked/?
  596. # [18:18] <Philip`> heckled
  597. # [18:18] <jgraham> heckled
  598. # [18:18] <gsnedders> Ah, I wasn't sure which
  599. # [18:18] <gsnedders> I guessed it was one of them
  600. # [18:18] <jgraham> Raeding what you write on irc is way overrated
  601. # [18:18] * gsnedders turns up the volume of Life in Cartoon Motion
  602. # [18:19] * Philip` feels like a proper researcher now since he's reading archeologically ancient papers - some are from as far back as 1999, and published as PostScript rather than PDF
  603. # [18:20] * gsnedders is listening to Lollipop by Mika from Life In Cartoon Motion
  604. # [18:20] * gsnedders is blatantly cool
  605. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> hendry: I've been planning to write an XSLT-based splitter for the H:TML draft
  606. # [18:20] * Quits: Scriber (n=scriber@cpc2-shep9-0-0-cust908.leic.cable.ntl.com) ("Bye :)")
  607. # [18:20] <jgraham> Philip`: Isn't ps irritating though?
  608. # [18:21] <Philip`> jgraham: Yes
  609. # [18:21] * gsnedders goes back to trying to understand solving first order linear differential equations
  610. # [18:21] <Philip`> jgraham: mainly since I can't read them in KPDF, and have to use something weird and crazy like KGhostView which doesn't handle page-breaks nicely
  611. # [18:22] <hendry> MikeSmith: get anywhere with that? ;)
  612. # [18:22] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Client Quit)
  613. # [18:23] <hendry> Philip`: i'm trying now to minimize your alpha canvas test for inclusion to the MCTMB. http://static.webvm.net/canvas/2d.drawImage.alpha.html
  614. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> hendry: not yet, but I suppose I should turn my attention to it now. I would need to eventually anyway
  615. # [18:24] <hendry> Philip`: going to give up for now as I need to catch a train. Need to understand your assert thingie. Just wanted to update http://www.w3.org/2008/06/mobile-test/canvas.js
  616. # [18:24] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@w229.z065106072.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net)
  617. # [18:25] <Philip`> hendry: The _assertPixelApprox is just requiring that the output is green
  618. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> only troublesome part about splitting with XSLT is how to figure out which fragment refs are going to end up being intra-file ones, and dealing with those
  619. # [18:26] <Philip`> (with some tolerance, because implementations might not be precise)
  620. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> might be a good case for using XSL kyes
  621. # [18:26] <Philip`> (and only checking one pixel of the image, because it's too slow and pointless to check every pixel)
  622. # [18:27] <Philip`> hendry: If your test output is checked by humans then you shouldn't need to do anything fancy like that - just tell people the output should look green
  623. # [18:28] <hendry> Philip`: yes, that's what I am trying to do. That's haot the MCTMB test already works: http://www.w3.org/2008/06/mobile-test
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  632. # [18:50] <gsnedders> Oh, wow. This isn't as hard as I thought.
  633. # [18:51] * gsnedders is having vague understanding creep into his head
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  635. # [18:56] * Philip` wonders why none of his PS viewers have a search function
  636. # [18:57] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-756ca2603c160fc3)
  637. # [18:57] <Philip`> (I'm guessing it's just because PS is too stupid a document format for such things)
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  680. # [21:16] <cryzed> Hey
  681. # [21:16] <cryzed> just wanted to drop by
  682. # [21:16] <cryzed> and tell your that's something wrong with the Google
  683. # [21:17] <cryzed> mercurial
  684. # [21:17] <cryzed> repository
  685. # [21:17] <cryzed> If you haven't already noticed
  686. # [21:17] <jgraham> Which
  687. # [21:17] <jgraham> one
  688. # [21:17] <jgraham> ?
  689. # [21:17] <cryzed> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
  690. # [21:17] <jgraham> Ah
  691. # [21:17] <cryzed> You can't even browse the source
  692. # [21:17] <cryzed> via the web interface
  693. # [21:17] * jgraham should investigate
  694. # [21:17] <cryzed> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/ -> Gives you an error
  695. # [21:17] <cryzed> "Error retrieving directory contents."
  696. # [21:17] * Philip` wonders if it was wise to switch to such an experimental system :-)
  697. # [21:18] <jgraham> Philip`: Well we have other source trres around, right?
  698. # [21:18] <jgraham> :)
  699. # [21:19] <Philip`> jgraham: Do we?
  700. # [21:20] <jgraham> Philip`: Sure. Just not with revision history and stuff
  701. # [21:20] <jgraham> Which is useful but sort-of non essential
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  704. # [21:22] <jgraham> It might be that I need to do something
  705. # [21:22] <jgraham> I am investigating now
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  707. # [21:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: Are we meant to all be moving to hg now for html5lib?
  708. # [21:23] <gsnedders> http://html5lib.googlecode.com/hg/ looks sorta wrong
  709. # [21:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: That is sort of the plan
  710. # [21:25] <jgraham> cryzed, Philip`, gsnedders The svn repo is still avaliable at https://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/
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  712. # [21:26] <jgraham> It seems like I need to import the svn repositoy into hg
  713. # [21:27] <cryzed> thanks
  714. # [21:27] * jgraham wishes OSX had sane package mangement, decides to move to a linux computer
  715. # [21:29] <cryzed> jgraham, high five!
  716. # [21:29] <cryzed> Ubuntu <3
  717. # [21:29] <cryzed> Well not necessarily Ubuntu, any Linux will do :D
  718. # [21:29] <Philip`> Except Slackware
  719. # [21:29] <cryzed> Except Gentoo
  720. # [21:30] <Philip`> Gentoo has sane package management
  721. # [21:30] <cryzed> Gentoo's compile-time is just too fucking long
  722. # [21:30] <cryzed> Why would I want to waste hours compiling X11 and GNOME?
  723. # [21:30] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@166.129.112.70)
  724. # [21:31] <Philip`> It's not wasting time - you can multitask
  725. # [21:31] <cryzed> imho it is
  726. # [21:31] <cryzed> You can simply use pre-compiled binaries
  727. # [21:31] <Philip`> You can write "emerge -u xorg-server" and then it'll be finished long before you next reboot
  728. # [21:32] <cryzed> yeah, and what do you do without a GUI?
  729. # [21:32] <cryzed> Editing text-files?
  730. # [21:32] <cryzed> Lynx?
  731. # [21:32] <cryzed> :D
  732. # [21:32] <Philip`> You install from the precompiled binaries on the installation CD
  733. # [21:32] <Philip`> and then once you've got a running system you can keep it up-to-date in the background
  734. # [21:33] <cryzed> there are precompiled xorg binaries?
  735. # [21:33] <cryzed> (and gnome?)
  736. # [21:33] <Philip`> There's a whole Live CD with GUI that you can install from
  737. # [21:33] <cryzed> Well, yes the LiveCD hast got a GUI
  738. # [21:34] <cryzed> But the installed operating system hasn't
  739. # [21:34] <cryzed> right?
  740. # [21:34] <gsnedders> It depends if you install it.
  741. # [21:34] <gsnedders> There are binaries available for a lot of packages.
  742. # [21:34] <cryzed> gsnedders, So where exactly is the advantage
  743. # [21:34] <cryzed> over Arch and Ubuntu?
  744. # [21:34] <cryzed> You can compile your programs
  745. # [21:34] <cryzed> ok cool
  746. # [21:35] <cryzed> 1-2 seconds execution time boost
  747. # [21:35] <cryzed> I guess
  748. # [21:35] <Philip`> You can get continually up-to-date software, rather than waiting six months for the next big release
  749. # [21:35] <Philip`> You can customise the build options and compile-time features of all the software
  750. # [21:35] <cryzed> Ubuntu's updating regularly aswell
  751. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Better way of speeding up start up time: switch to FreeBSD, which has always been more responsive for me than any Linux distro.
  752. # [21:36] <cryzed> gsnedders, Ah I'm curious
  753. # [21:36] <cryzed> I never used FreeBSD
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  755. # [21:36] <cryzed> FreeBSD is basically
  756. # [21:36] <cryzed> another kernel
  757. # [21:36] <cryzed> right?
  758. # [21:36] <gsnedders> No, it's a complete OS
  759. # [21:36] <cryzed> Does it use GNU?
  760. # [21:36] <gsnedders> No
  761. # [21:36] <cryzed> So it isn't compatible
  762. # [21:36] <cryzed> with Linux binaries?
  763. # [21:36] <gsnedders> It has a binary compatibility module
  764. # [21:37] <gsnedders> (kernel module, that is)
  765. # [21:37] <cryzed> but still
  766. # [21:37] <cryzed> I don't know
  767. # [21:37] <cryzed> I think I prefer Ubuntu, seems easier and I'm by nature a lazy person
  768. # [21:38] <cryzed> Not stupid, I probably could switch if I wanted, but I don't
  769. # [21:38] <cryzed> I'm rather content with Ubuntu and the boot-time
  770. # [21:38] <cryzed> (about 18 seconds)
  771. # [21:38] * gsnedders has plenty of problems with most DEs' usability
  772. # [21:38] <gsnedders> (where most is defined to be everyone I've tried)
  773. # [21:38] <gsnedders> (this is X DEs)
  774. # [21:39] <cryzed> You are using X DE?
  775. # [21:39] <gsnedders> ?
  776. # [21:39] <cryzed> nevermind
  777. # [21:39] <cryzed> I didn't understand what you said
  778. # [21:39] <gsnedders> an X desktop enviroment
  779. # [21:39] <gsnedders> a desktop environment for an X window server
  780. # [21:40] <cryzed> ah okay
  781. # [21:40] <cryzed> Well I like GNOME
  782. # [21:40] <cryzed> I hate KDE
  783. # [21:40] <cryzed> XFCE is not my thingy
  784. # [21:40] <cryzed> never tried any *box
  785. # [21:42] * gsnedders sticks to OS X because it has a better desktop environment and still has a proper POSIX command line
  786. # [21:44] * jgraham wonders what problems gsnedders has
  787. # [21:44] * gsnedders has a lot of problems
  788. # [21:45] <jgraham> with X desktop environments in particula
  789. # [21:45] <jgraham> r
  790. # [21:45] <gsnedders> Then tend to just suck once you get to the small details
  791. # [21:46] <gsnedders> Now, unless this helps me with maths, this is about as productive as a ball.
  792. # [21:46] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE28f6.bae.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  793. # [21:47] <Philip`> Why don't you think this is productive? It's an opportunity to end the OS/desktop debate once and for all, by coming to a decision on which is best - you can't just give up now
  794. # [21:51] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.47)
  795. # [21:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: I don't have an exam on this.
  796. # [21:53] * gsnedders needs to get a buttonhole
  797. # [21:53] <gsnedders> (as in, the floral thing, not the actual hole)
  798. # [21:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: Sure, but think of how much humanity will benefit once we've decided which OS is best and so nobody else will have to spend time debating it
  799. # [21:54] <gsnedders> "There's many battles lost/But tell me who has won"
  800. # [21:59] <jgraham> Plenty of OS X details suck too
  801. # [21:59] <jgraham> :)
  802. # [21:59] <cryzed> Ehrm
  803. # [21:59] <cryzed> Guys
  804. # [21:59] <cryzed> Linux is best
  805. # [21:59] * cryzed is running
  806. # [22:00] <cryzed> btw, thanks for the great library
  807. # [22:00] <cryzed> using it daily
  808. # [22:00] <cryzed> to do my webscraping with python
  809. # [22:01] * Quits: cryzed (n=cryzed@i53871570.versanet.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  810. # [22:05] * gsnedders uses what he thinks is best for what he needs to do
  811. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Which tends to be for any computer I have a GUI on OS X
  812. # [22:06] * Philip` does the same, and ends up using Linux, and the difference is that he is right and gsnedders is wrong
  813. # [22:09] * jgraham tendds to use anything that isn't Windows as he finds that too annoying and everything else merely differntly deficient
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  815. # [22:10] * gsnedders is getting to the point where he can actually solve first order linear differential equations without looking at how to do it and get the answer corret
  816. # [22:10] <gsnedders> *correct
  817. # [22:11] <jgraham> Examples of things that are broken on OS X: The lack of control over window positioning. The applications folder. The broken virtual desktops. The finder.
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  820. # [22:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: good :)
  821. # [22:13] <Philip`> jgraham: Also, it looks too pretty
  822. # [22:13] <gsnedders> Virtual desktops have been far less broken since 10.5.3, though
  823. # [22:13] <gsnedders> Like, they are actually bearable and useful now
  824. # [22:13] <Philip`> I like to be reminded that I'm using a deterministic machine and I have dominion over it
  825. # [22:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not with Lightroom
  826. # [22:14] <gsnedders> How so?
  827. # [22:14] <jgraham> (this may not be Apple's fault. I don't care)
  828. # [22:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: Click LR icon in the dock. Dock dissapears. Desktop containing LR is not focused
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  830. # [22:16] <jgraham> (assuming i is open and on a different virtual desktop)
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  832. # [22:16] * gsnedders assumes that LR creates its own windows and doesn't use any standard API for it
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  836. # [22:17] <gsnedders> But yeah, that sounds b0rked
  837. # [22:25] * Philip` got confused when switching from desktop A to desktop B resulted in all the terminal windows on desktop A jumping into the foreground, and then gave up
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The end :)