/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 06 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:26] <karlcow> [16:37] <tantek> so yes, people *do* author in visual tree-like structures beyond just simple flat streams
  11. # [00:26] <karlcow> People author in streams of thoughts (semantics), almost nobody uses the outline mode of MS Office Word. They do not author trees.
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  33. # [02:48] <Lachy> Hixie, Requiem 1.8.10 is out now
  34. # [02:51] <Hixie> d'you have a .torrent for it yet?
  35. # [02:52] <Lachy> there's on on demonoid
  36. # [02:53] <Hixie> k thx
  37. # [02:55] <Hixie> seems to be down
  38. # [02:56] <Lachy> http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1908848/10713984/ works for me
  39. # [02:57] <Hixie> huh, works from norway
  40. # [02:57] <Hixie> and from LA
  41. # [02:57] <Hixie> just not from this network
  42. # [02:57] <Hixie> weird
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  53. # [03:54] <Hixie> any bibtex people here?
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  58. # [04:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: anything specific?
  59. # [04:31] <Hixie> yeah
  60. # [04:31] <Hixie> "wtf is the format"
  61. # [04:31] <Hixie> specifically, how do i quote strings in it?
  62. # [04:35] <Dashiva> {String} ?
  63. # [04:35] <Hixie> what if it contains a { or a }?
  64. # [04:35] <Hixie> (if this is defined anywhere i'd be happy to just read the docs)
  65. # [04:35] <Dashiva> I use {} or "" depending on what I need, that's all I know
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  67. # [04:36] <Hixie> i'm trying to write a bibtex generator
  68. # [04:40] <Hixie> but can't find any docs on what the syntax is
  69. # [04:40] <Hixie> what are the allowed characters for the key?
  70. # [04:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://texlipse.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/texlipse/net.sourceforge.texlipse/source/bibtex6.sablecc?revision=1.6&view=markup
  71. # [04:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: non-ASCII has hairy LaTeX escaping
  72. # [04:42] <hsivonen> can't remember how to escape }
  73. # [04:45] <hsivonen> hmm. actually, you can use non-ASCII without escaping
  74. # [04:53] <Dashiva> Isn't most things tex just "the implementation is the specification"?
  75. # [04:54] <Hixie> looks like i use quotes "like this" and if i want to embed a quote i do it "like {"} this"
  76. # [04:54] <Hixie> but i can't see how to embed a lone brace
  77. # [04:54] <Hixie> i've seen at least one book whose title was something like "The lone }"
  78. # [04:59] <Hixie> maybe {\{} ?
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  116. # [09:09] <jgraham> Hixie: Without testing I would expect \{ to escape a brace in BibTeX
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  118. # [09:30] <Hixie> without surrounding {}s?
  119. # [09:30] <Hixie> \" doesn't work, it has to be {"}, from what i understand
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  121. # [09:31] <Philip`> \" is the syntax for putting umlauts on characters, I think
  122. # [09:33] * Philip` tests things
  123. # [09:33] <Philip`> Looks like \{ doesn't work, but {\{} does
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  126. # [09:35] <Philip`> Uh, I might be wrong
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  129. # [09:46] <Philip`> Oh, okay, so you can't actually escape braces
  130. # [09:46] <Philip`> What you can do is \newcommand{\leftbrace}{\{} in the LaTeX file that includes the bibliography
  131. # [09:46] <Philip`> and then use \leftbrace inside the BibTeX entries
  132. # [09:46] <Philip`> (according to some documentation and some testing)
  133. # [09:48] <Philip`> (You can escape braces with \{...\} if they're matched, but you need something like \leftbrace if they're unmatched)
  134. # [09:50] <Hixie> o_O
  135. # [09:50] <Hixie> what kind of wacko language is this, anyway
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  137. # [09:51] <Philip`> I blame Knuth
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  140. # [09:54] <Philip`> I think the idea is it's designed to work nicely in the common case, even if that's at significant expense in certain rare cases
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  143. # [09:54] <Philip`> (where "it" is both TeX and BibTeX)
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  146. # [09:57] <Philip`> and I've never encountered those rare cases in BibTeX in practice, since all the strings are just title={Some Nice Simple Title} and title={Some Title with {Bits that Need Case Preserving}} and author={Jo{\~a}o} and it works easily
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  150. # [10:05] <Hixie> Philip`: well hopefully nobody will ever need to convert bibliographic information on a work with a single { to bibtex...
  151. # [10:08] <Philip`> I could count the number of times I've seen a work with a single { in its title on the fingers of a hand that has no fingers
  152. # [10:08] <Philip`> so that's alright in practice
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  156. # [10:21] <Hixie> i've seen one :-)
  157. # [10:21] <Hixie> but yes
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  185. # [12:29] * annevk42 wonders what [COOKIES] will point to in HTML5
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  195. # [12:54] <hendry> is there an HTML5 appcache example somewhere? http://twitter.com/ppk/status/1715436905
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  199. # [13:03] <Rik|work> hendry: http://www.slideshare.net/Berttimmermans/iphone-offline-webapps or http://svay.com/blog/index/post/2009/02/19/Creer-un-client-Twitter-offline-pour-l-iPhone-avec-HTML5 (in french)
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  208. # [13:39] <hendry> thanks Rik|work
  209. # [13:39] <hendry> there is also http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2009/04/gmail-for-mobile-html5-series-using.html
  210. # [13:40] <hendry> though personally i was after some minalistic sample
  211. # [13:51] <jgraham> There is some documentation on the Mozilla MDC site but it's not quite running code
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  227. # [15:20] * jgraham winders if hsivonen would consider placing a link to the validator.nu html parser repository somewhere on http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/
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  235. # [16:09] <philipj> Hixie, implementing the media resource selection algorithm when checking <source> elements should wait until the DOM is stable (script has finished) but the first set value of the src attribute is the one to use really isn't much fun.
  236. # [16:10] <philipj> I'd really prefer if step 2 ("Note: By this point, the algorithm is running asynchronously.") would queue a task to run the rest, i.e. schedule it after scripts have finished
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  239. # [16:12] <annevk42> philipj, you're prolly better of sending email
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  247. # [16:46] <Philip`> Hmm, a surprising number of people have contacted me about my font tool, even though I intentionally didn't give a contact email address on the site
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  251. # [16:54] <Lachy> Hixie, for input type=tel, the spec says "User agents may change the punctuation of values that the user enters." - Does that affect the submitted value, or just the way in which the number is rendered?
  252. # [16:56] <Lachy> in my experience, many sites don't accept any punctuation in phone numbers.
  253. # [16:56] <annevk42> "values" points to the value concept which means afaict that it affects the submission
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  255. # [16:57] <Lachy> I guess, if they use type=tel, then hopefully they will fix their back end too
  256. # [16:57] <annevk42> it would be nicer if type=tel specified some canonicalized value for submission
  257. # [16:58] <Lachy> I don't think that's really possible given the wide variety of formats used for phone numbers around the world
  258. # [16:58] <Lachy> and even formats for phone numbers in the same country, depending on whether they're land line, mobile, free call or premium rate numbers
  259. # [16:58] <annevk42> international dialing is possible
  260. # [16:59] <annevk42> surely canonicalizing phone numbers is possible too then
  261. # [16:59] <Philip`> The canonical format could be created with s/[^0-9]//g
  262. # [16:59] <Philip`> but that doesn't help when silly Americans use letters instead of numbers in their phone numbers
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  264. # [16:59] * Philip` wonders if other nationalities do that too
  265. # [17:00] <annevk42> though some phone numbers are bound by country
  266. # [17:00] <Philip`> Also that wouldn't work when people write "+44 (0)1234 567890"
  267. # [17:01] <Lachy> IIRC, the ITU defines official phone number standards, and says something about the format. But that requires the country code to be known, and users don't always enter that into forms
  268. # [17:02] <Lachy> Philip`, is the (0) like the area code that's used when you don't explicitly dial the country code?
  269. # [17:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm told you can backslash-escape curly braces in .bib
  270. # [17:04] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  271. # [17:05] <jgraham> Lachy: Yes
  272. # [17:05] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  273. # [17:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: Only works if they're matched pairs, according to the compiler's error output
  274. # [17:07] <Lachy> jgraham, so to dial my UK mobile number from a UK phone, I dial 0 7798 526 965. Or from an international phone using: +44 7798 526 965 ?
  275. # [17:07] <jgraham> Lachy: Yes
  276. # [17:08] <jgraham> Assuming that is your real mobile number :)
  277. # [17:08] <Lachy> it is
  278. # [17:08] <Lachy> it's a prepaid SIM card I use whenever I visit London
  279. # [17:08] <Lachy> it's cheaper than paying international rates with my Norwegian or Australian SIMs
  280. # [17:09] * jgraham wonders when Lachy will start getting abusive calls from Mr Last Week :)
  281. # [17:09] <Dashiva> Dramatic readings of select IRC quotes
  282. # [17:09] <Lachy> my phone number has been published on my website for years. Haven't received any abusive phone calls yet
  283. # [17:09] <Philip`> Maybe nobody abusive reads your website
  284. # [17:10] <Lachy> I'm expect MLW will go looking for it now that I've mentioned it's there :-)
  285. # [17:10] <Philip`> Not that I'm implying the people reading IRC logs (hello out there!) are abusive
  286. # [17:10] <Philip`> (Not that I'm implying they're not, either)
  287. # [17:10] <Dashiva> You're implying you're not implying anything
  288. # [17:11] * jgraham is confused by the implications of that
  289. # [17:11] <Lachy> Philip`, some people consider the abusive ones to be those of us in this channel
  290. # [17:12] * Philip` refrains from stating an abusive comment about such people
  291. # [17:12] <jgraham> Anyway, the point is that it is amusing to imagine MLW in a phone box somewhere in rural England, feeding his 10ps into the machine to make crank calls to Lachy, whilst using a vocoder to disguise his voice
  292. # [17:13] <Lachy> he would have to know when I'm going to be in the UK for that to be effective
  293. # [17:13] <gsnedders> I'm sure you'll give away that information in here
  294. # [17:13] <Lachy> I haven't yet
  295. # [17:14] <jgraham> Lachy: Not now that he knows that your phone number is on your website. Plus you often mention that here, I think
  296. # [17:14] <Lachy> (I gave it away elsewhere already though)
  297. # [17:14] <Philip`> He could try phoning you every day
  298. # [17:14] <jgraham> He could just leave voicemail
  299. # [17:14] <Lachy> I don't think I set up my voice mail on that SIM yet
  300. # [17:15] <Lachy> I haven't set up voice mail on my norwegian number yet either, but that's cause I don't know how and can't find out cause the instructions are all in norwegian
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  303. # [17:16] <Philip`> I suppose the problem with all these ideas is that they would merely be abuse against Lachy, and couldn't be justified as "GUERILLA JOURNALSIM" regardless of whether he deserves the abuse
  304. # [17:16] <Lachy> I'll be in London this weekend, arriving Saturday and leaving Sunday, on my way to Australia.
  305. # [17:16] <Lachy> I'm looking forward to receiving abusive calls now :-)
  306. # [17:17] <Philip`> (and a respectable figure like MLW wouldn't stoop to unjustified abuse)
  307. # [17:17] * gsnedders has some Lachy mobile number in his phone
  308. # [17:17] <Lachy> gsnedders, you probably have my Norwegian number
  309. # [17:17] <jgraham> Philip`: No but they would be Crushing the Cabal!
  310. # [17:18] <Dashiva> You can't crush the cabal
  311. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: Yeah, it's Norwegian
  312. # [17:18] <Dashiva> At worst you get 52 pickup
  313. # [17:18] * gsnedders resists temptation to call Lachy
  314. # [17:18] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  315. # [17:19] * Lachy finds gsnedders' number in his address book
  316. # [17:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: That is probably good because the cost benefit of proving that you can use a phone vs international calling rates seems bad
  317. # [17:19] * gsnedders has already found Lachy's
  318. # [17:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: Exactly.
  319. # [17:25] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.164
  320. # [17:25] <Lachy> that defines the format for phone numbers
  321. # [17:28] <Lachy> The pattern attribute probably shouldn't be allowed to apply to type=tel given that browsers are allowed to automatically adjust the punctuation
  322. # [17:28] * jgraham is quite concerned at the idea of browsers automatically adjusting punctuation
  323. # [17:29] <Lachy> I'm a little concerned about it. But it's what my phone does when I enter a number into the address book
  324. # [17:29] <Lachy> and, for the most part, it seems to apply country specific formatting conventions fairly reliably
  325. # [17:30] <Philip`> Is there some list of the use cases for entering phone numbers?
  326. # [17:30] <Dashiva> Many registration forms, alas
  327. # [17:30] <jgraham> I'm not sure how browsers will be able to tell what punctuation is required. Browsers will need to be compatible but there is no spec
  328. # [17:30] <Lachy> Here's a use case: A site wishes to harvest phone numbers for use by telemarketers, and needs a convenient way for users to quickly and easily enter their phone number
  329. # [17:30] <Philip`> like, is it for e.g. address books where you want a nice human-readable (and not machine-readable) format, and it's basically plain text but you want to stop people typing in garbage?
  330. # [17:31] <Philip`> or is it for machine-readable numbers so a machine can automatically phone you, without any human involvement?
  331. # [17:32] <jgraham> Philip`: Probably both
  332. # [17:32] <Philip`> In the former case I guess you'd want to allow numbers like "01234 567890 (switchboard; ask for John Smith)" too
  333. # [17:32] <Lachy> I think the use case is because it allows for integration with the user's address book, and in mobile browsers with touch screens, focussing the control gives a keypad designed for entering numbers, rather than a normal text entry keypad
  334. # [17:32] <jgraham> (and quick access to tehir contacts list)
  335. # [17:32] <Philip`> Ah, I guess the autofill case is independent of any validation or canonicalisation
  336. # [17:33] <Philip`> s/autofill/fancy input method/
  337. # [17:33] <Lachy> I don't think we can stop people typing in garbage, because the phone number conventions use a wide variety of strange punctuation characters, inluding + ( ) # , . (space) and many others
  338. # [17:33] <jgraham> It is just a hint to a UA; the server has to be able to deal with the possibility of a garbale value anyway
  339. # [17:33] <jgraham> *garbage
  340. # [17:34] <jgraham> So having UAs mung the actual value seems bad
  341. # [17:35] <Lachy> for a normal desktop browser, yes.
  342. # [17:35] <Lachy> but for a user with a browser on a mobile phone, it could be convenient
  343. # [17:35] <jgraham> Lachy: Howso?
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  345. # [17:36] <Lachy> so that the number gets formatted nicely for easier reading, without the user having to manually enter characters that aren't so easy to type on a mobile keypad
  346. # [17:37] <jgraham> Lachy: That seems to be something that is between the UA and the user if they want to have a special UI for entering numbers that pretty prints the result before updating the control
  347. # [17:38] <jgraham> Not really something that should be in the spec
  348. # [17:38] <Lachy> the spec just says it's permitted, not that it's required
  349. # [17:39] <jgraham> Lachy: The spec doesn't say every time that a UA is permitted to innovate the UI
  350. # [17:39] <Philip`> The spec normatively states that it's permitted, which seems unusual for UI issues
  351. # [17:39] <Lachy> yeah, true
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  482. # [22:01] <jgraham> Hixie: Didn't zcorpan just propose that < be disallowed in _unquoted_ attributes?
  483. # [22:02] <Hixie> oh
  484. # [22:02] <Hixie> i may have misunderstood
  485. # [22:03] <Hixie> i guess that could work
  486. # [22:03] <Hixie> though if we keep adding more things that aren't allowed, it's gonna make it hard to know when to quote again
  487. # [22:03] <Philip`> That's easy - always quote
  488. # [22:04] <Philip`> You already have to pretty much do that in order to ensure compatibility with legacy clients
  489. # [22:04] <Philip`> (You need quotes for at least something like [\x00-\x1f"'`] I think)
  490. # [22:04] <Philip`> (and >)
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  492. # [22:12] <jgraham> It saddens me to say that I increasingly find it hard to defend making unquoted attributes conforming
  493. # [22:12] <jgraham> Because the quotes are ugly and unnecessary
  494. # [22:12] <jgraham> Except when they are really important
  495. # [22:13] <jgraham> And the rules are rather more complex then "you just need to quote when there is whitespace or a quote character"
  496. # [22:16] <Philip`> I guess it's easy enough if you're writing it by hand, because you won't have funny characters; but if you're writing a serialiser, you either need to be extremely careful (else you'll have bugs like html5lib has, and those bugs could become security issues) or else always quote everything
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  498. # [22:19] <jgraham> Philip`: Does html5lib have bugs relative to the spec or just relative to legacy clients?
  499. # [22:20] <Philip`> jgraham: Just the latter, I think
  500. # [22:20] <Philip`> (http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=92 and http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=93 )
  501. # [22:21] <Hixie> serialisers should just quote everything unless they're trying to save bytes
  502. # [22:22] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah I know about those issues. I guess we should quote the exra characters by default. Or maybe just always quote
  503. # [22:22] <jgraham> Hixie: Does saving bytes really make a compelling argument, especially given gzip?
  504. # [22:23] <gsnedders> I think we should quote them by default when no-quotes, but also quote everything by default
  505. # [22:23] <Hixie> jgraham: for some things, yes.
  506. # [22:24] <jgraham> Hixie: For example?
  507. # [22:24] <Philip`> If serialisers provide a make_output_more_efficient option, people are bound to select that option
  508. # [22:24] <Hixie> jgraham: if you're trying to fit something into one packet, and with gzipping you're one byte over, for instance.
  509. # [22:24] <Philip`> and even if most people don't select that option, some will, so the serialiser still has to carefully reverse-engineer legacy UAs in order to determine what it still needs to quote in order to prevent XSS attacks
  510. # [22:25] <Philip`> (because the spec doesn't provide any guidance)
  511. # [22:25] <Philip`> Hixie: In that case, you should just gzip harder!
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  513. # [22:28] <jgraham> Hixie: That doesn't seem like a case that falls in the 80 part of 80/20. And in particular it doesn't seem probable that there will be a large number of pages that can't be made to fit into a single packet with quotes but do fit in without quotes
  514. # [22:30] <Philip`> And those pages can easily sacrifice validity anyway
  515. # [22:30] <Hixie> i agree that it's not a huge deal for most people, but i think making it possible is important enough.
  516. # [22:31] <Hixie> Philip`: if we're saying they are allowed do it, then we're saying it shouldn't be invalid.
  517. # [22:31] <Hixie> that's what "invalid" means
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  519. # [22:31] <Philip`> Hixie: We're not saying they're allowed to do it
  520. # [22:31] <Philip`> but they can do it anyway so that's alright
  521. # [22:32] <Philip`> just like we're not saying they're allowed to use <center> simply because it's fewer bytes than <div style="align:center">, but they can do it anyway if they really care about saving bytes
  522. # [22:33] <Hixie> conformance is the technical equivalent of law (though without enforcement)
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  524. # [22:34] <Hixie> just as it's not valid to say "well stealing is against the law but they can still do it if you need to", it's not valid to say "attributes must be quoted but they can still ignore that if they need to"
  525. # [22:34] <Philip`> Law without enforcement is just guidelines
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  528. # [22:35] <Hixie> either we are ok with someone doing something, and we make it conforming, or we have good reasons to not allow it, and we want nobody to do it.
  529. # [22:36] <Philip`> That seems quite a valid thing to say - maybe my house is burning down so I can steal a bucket of water from a neighbour, even though it's against the law, and that's fine because there's nothing physically preventing you from doing that in extreme circumstances
  530. # [22:37] <Hixie> i disagree; i'd expect the law to allow such extremes explicitly, just like the law allows people to break other people's ribs legally in certain condititions (e.g. doing CPR to save their life)
  531. # [22:38] <jgraham> Well as Philip` says we disallow <center> even though it is shorter than <style>.a{text-align:center}</style><span class="a"> because the argument that it leads authors to do harmful things is stronger than the argument that people who need to save bytes should be allowed to write <center>
  532. # [22:40] <jgraham> (even though the argument about device-independent markup seems to be somewhat theoretical whereas the argument about quoting can be practically demonstrated)
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  540. # Session Close: Thu May 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)