/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-12 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue May 12 00:00:00 2009
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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8. # [01:09] <othermaciej> I guess I should re-add this channel to my autojoin list
9. # [01:11] <Hixie> so in #webkit othermaciej semi-accidentally suggested prop=""
10. # [01:11] <Hixie> instead of property=""
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12. # [01:11] <Hixie> and that made me think maybe prop="" or propname="" would be good
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14. # [01:14] <Philip`> itemprop=""
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16. # [01:14] <Hixie> oooh
17. # [01:14] <Hixie> itemprop="" is good
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22. # [01:20] <Philip`> Hixie: The RDF output has no way of identifying what's an item - you just get a load of blank nodes, some of which aren't used as objects in any triple and therefore can be assumed to be top-level items, which is quite indirect
23. # [01:20] <Hixie> should we rename element.properties also if we use itemprop="" and element.itemprop?
24. # [01:20] <Philip`> so maybe it'd be good to generate a triple like '<> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/something#top-level-item> _:n' for each top-level item _:n, so that the relationship between items and pages is explicit (and so e.g. it's easy to iterate over them all)
25. # [01:21] <othermaciej> renaming element.properties to element.itemprops or element.itemProperties would be weird
26. # [01:21] <othermaciej> because in that case, the element presumably is the item, and it's redundant to ask for the item's item properties
27. # [01:21] <Hixie> ok
28. # [01:22] <othermaciej> I was going to say "what other kind would it have?" but it would indeed have CSS properties
29. # [01:22] <othermaciej> still, I don't think "item properties" vs "CSS properties" is a good distinction, so if disambiguation is needed, I'd say "data properties"
30. # [01:22] <othermaciej> or something like that
31. # [01:23] <othermaciej> but that could be confused with the data- attribute mechanism
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33. # [01:24] <Hixie> well i just renamed property to itemprop
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35. # [01:27] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, that's not a bad idea...
36. # [01:27] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html - now with itemprop
37. # [01:28] <Hixie> that was quick
38. # [01:28] <Hixie> you guys rock
39. # [01:29] <Philip`> "guys"? I'm only one person :-p
40. # [01:29] <Hixie> you and james :-)
41. # [01:29] * Philip` is happy to take all of the credit anyway
42. # [01:29] <Hixie> you are especially awesome, if that helps :-)
43. # [01:32] <Hixie> Philip`: added an ...#item triple
44. # [01:32] <Hixie> let me know what you think
45. # [01:32] <Hixie> if you like it as is i'll commit it
46. # [01:32] <Hixie> otherwise let me know if you'd prefer a different name
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48. # [01:33] <Philip`> I don't like how my code has a line saying "value = value.value;"
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50. # [01:33] <Hixie> hah
51. # [01:33] <inimino> Hixie: s/ancestors/descendants/ in "Properties don't have to be given as ancestors of the element with the item attribute."
52. # [01:33] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
53. # [01:34] <Hixie> inimino: thanks, fixing
54. # [01:34] <Philip`> Hixie: Is the ...#item thing visible in a place which does not require me downloading megabytes of spec?
55. # [01:34] <Philip`> (since my current internet connection costs 1.5 pence per megabyte, and I don't want to just throw money away)
56. # [01:35] <Hixie> i just added the following as step two in the "generate the triples for an item" algorithm:
57. # [01:35] <Hixie> Generate the following triple:
58. # [01:35] <Hixie> subject the document's current address predicate http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#item object subject
59. # [01:35] <Hixie> with some more newlines
60. # [01:35] <Philip`> That doesn't distinguish top-level items
61. # [01:36] <Hixie> oh true
62. # [01:36] <Hixie> oops
63. # [01:36] <Philip`> Maybe it'd fit better in the place that currently says "(Nothing is done with the returned subject.)"
64. # [01:36] <Hixie> yeah i'm putting it as a subalgorithm there
65. # [01:36] <Hixie> is #item ok?
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67. # [01:37] <Philip`> I don't know if conflicting with <meta name=item> is fine
68. # [01:38] <Hixie> and rel=item
69. # [01:38] <Hixie> and explicit propitem=""s with that value
70. # [01:38] <Hixie> i think it's fine, because it doesn't require implementations to do anything (like the rel thing implied it did)
71. # [01:39] <Hixie> it's up to the author not to make spurious statements
72. # [01:39] <Hixie> they could just as easily throw in spurious ones in to the triple store later
73. # [01:40] <Philip`> I also don't know whether it's sensible to use that vocabulary space
74. # [01:40] <Philip`> (Maybe it is; I've got no idea)
75. # [01:40] <Hixie> no idea either
76. # [01:41] <Hixie> inimino: fixed
77. # [01:41] <Hixie> Philip`: ok, checking it in
78. # [01:43] <Hixie> http://groups.google.com/group/thosch/browse_thread/thread/3aa1dc61c148c145/edfeb6432267af37
79. # [01:44] <Hixie> i've no idea what that last paragraph means, but it's good for us...
80. # [01:44] <Philip`> Hixie: s/descendents/descendants/
81. # [01:45] <Hixie> man between that and "occurrence" (which i reliably spell "occurance") i really can't spell
82. # [01:45] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html - now with "<> xhv:item _:n0 ." etc
83. # [01:47] <Philip`> (I really to output proper N3 blank-node syntax when possible...)
84. # [01:47] <Philip`> *need
85. # [01:49] <Philip`> Hixie: Are you aware that computers nowadays are capable of looking up words in dictionaries and automatically highlighting when you get it wrong?
86. # [01:49] <Hixie> my dictionary says "descendents" is right
87. # [01:49] <Hixie> and i don't bother with spell checking the spec because about 40% of the words are made up anyway
88. # [01:51] <Philip`> http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861603981/descendant.html - "Descendant is the only spelling of the noun, denoting somebody or something related to an ancestor, or something based on an earlier thing. Descendent is the usual spelling of the adjective, which means "going downward.""
89. # [01:52] <Hixie> i didn't say my dictionary was right
90. # [01:52] <Philip`> It's right that the word exists
91. # [01:53] <Hixie> with an s on the end?
92. # [01:54] <Philip`> Easy way to remember the spelling of the noun: Imagine a person whose children and grandchildren are all ants
93. # [01:54] <Philip`> and they are his descendants
94. # [01:55] <Philip`> Just be careful not to imagine a person whose children and grandchildren are talking trees, because that'll give entirely the wrong idea
95. # [01:55] <Hixie> i know it has an a, the problem is i have motor memory now
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97. # [01:56] <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose a group of things which are descendent could be called descendents
98. # [01:56] <inimino> Hixie: thanks
99. # [01:56] * Philip` decides to resolve the issue by going to bed
100. # [01:56] <Hixie> nn
101. # [01:57] <Philip`> jgraham: (By the way, your software is very legacy now)
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106. # [02:11] <iand> Hixie: if you're looking for implementation feedback on microdata, I have marked up a version of my homepage at http://iandavis.com/2009/microdata/
107. # [02:12] <iand> it's based on my existing page http://iandavis.com/blog/about which uses eRDF
108. # [02:13] <iand> I used property attribute, not itemprop, so I could test with http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html
109. # [02:13] <Philip`> That thing now only accepts itemprop, not property
110. # [02:14] <iand> Philip`: heh, I can't keep up
111. # [02:14] <iand> hang on
112. # [02:14] <iand> ok, just updating
113. # [02:14] <iand> there's one thing I can't get to work satisfactorily
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115. # [02:15] <iand> I want to say <http://iandavis.com/id/me> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/weblog> <http://iandavis.com/blog>
116. # [02:15] <iand> and <http://iandavis.com/blog> <http://purl.org/dc/terms/title> "Internet Alchemy" .
117. # [02:15] <Hixie> iand: cool, looking...
118. # [02:16] <iand> but I can't get that, currently I have a blank node instead of the blog url
119. # [02:16] <Hixie> (btw i based this microdata thing in part on the ideas in eRDF, it was useful)
120. # [02:16] <iand> Hixie: thanks
121. # [02:16] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.99.185) (Remote closed the connection)
122. # [02:17] <iand> if I remove the item attibute then I get the triple <http://iandavis.com/id/me> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/weblog> <http://iandavis.com/blog>
123. # [02:17] <Hixie> christ man, that page is going to be like the most microdata-irific page of the year
124. # [02:17] <iand> but the title of the blog is then attatched to <http://iandavis.com/id/me>
125. # [02:17] <iand> Hixie: it was a fairly easy conversion from erdf
126. # [02:17] <Hixie> cool
127. # [02:17] <Hixie> ok let's see
128. # [02:18] <Hixie> your first triple you can do using the under-documented "about" magic word:
129. # [02:19] <Hixie> <span item><link itemprop="about" href="http://iandavis.com/id/me"><link itemprop="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/weblog" href="http://iandavis.com/blog"></span>
130. # [02:19] <Hixie> (gonna add more about "about" later today or tomorrow)
131. # [02:19] <Hixie> oh to do both of those you'd do:
132. # [02:19] <iand> yeah I think I get about, but I don't seem to be able to nest it
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134. # [02:19] <iand> not sure if that was just a limitation of the demo implementation
135. # [02:20] <Philip`> I'm not aware of any significant ways the demo implementation diverges from the spec
136. # [02:20] <Hixie> <div item><link itemprop="about" href="http://iandavis.com/id/me"><div itemprop="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/weblog" item><link itemprop="about" href="http://iandavis.com/blog"><meta itemprop="http://purl.org/dc/terms/title" content="Internet Alchemy"></div></div>
137. # [02:20] <Hixie> that should do it
138. # [02:20] <Hixie> unless i typoed something
139. # [02:21] <iand> ah, using meta
140. # [02:23] <Hixie> Philip`: two bugs in your impl with that ode
141. # [02:23] <Hixie> Philip`: you don't seem to support <meta>
142. # [02:23] <Hixie> Philip`: and you don't remove the c:abouts
143. # [02:23] <Hixie> oh that's a bug in the spec
144. # [02:23] <Hixie> oops
145. # [02:23] <Philip`> Works for me
146. # [02:23] <Philip`> in Firefox 3.0
147. # [02:23] <Hixie> oh could be a safari bug
148. # [02:23] <Hixie> makes sense
149. # [02:24] <Philip`> and Opera 10.0
150. # [02:24] <Philip`> I haven't tested in Safari
151. # [02:24] <iand> Hixie: with the solution above the title of the blog is embedded in content attribute - any way to make that work with it as visible text, i.e. for compatibility with html4 browsers?
152. # [02:24] <Philip`> jQuery causes various browser-compatibility problems
153. # [02:25] <Hixie> iand: sure, you <span itemprop="http://purl.org/dc/terms/title">Internet Alchemy</span> instead of the <meta>
154. # [02:25] <Hixie> s/you/use/
155. # [02:25] <iand> ok
156. # [02:25] * Philip` should replace it with pure DOM code when possible
157. # [02:25] * iand hacks a bit
158. # [02:25] <Philip`> Hixie: Nobody ever told me to remove c:about :-)
159. # [02:26] <Hixie> yeah adding that now
160. # [02:28] <Philip`> Assuming you're not adding something crazy, the demo implementation does it now
161. # [02:28] <Hixie> spec has it now too
162. # [02:28] <Hixie> just added "If name is equal to the string "about", skip this name"
163. # [02:28] <Hixie> to "For each name name in element's property names, run the following substeps:"
164. # [02:28] <Hixie> as substep 1
165. # [02:29] <Philip`> Ah, good, that's not crazy
166. # [02:32] <iand> aha http://iandavis.com/2009/microdata/ gives the triples I want now
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168. # [02:32] <iand> source is URI crazy of course
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172. # [02:38] <iand> thanks Philip` for the microdata demo - it was very helpful
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174. # [02:41] <Hixie> iand: what's your opinion overall?
175. # [02:42] <Hixie> (of the microdata idea)
176. # [02:42] <iand> ignoring any conflict with rdfa etc, this would meet my needs
177. # [02:42] <iand> I'd like an abbreviation mechanism, but I can live without it
178. # [02:43] <iand> there seems to be no treatment of language?
179. # [02:43] <iand> and datatypes are limited to the html5 ones
180. # [02:43] <iand> but for me personally, datatypes were never strong goal in the design of erdf either
181. # [02:43] <Philip`> I think the only datatypes are string and URL
182. # [02:44] <Philip`> or at least that's how I've implemented it
183. # [02:44] <iand> datetime as well
184. # [02:44] <Philip`> That's a string, according to my code :-)
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186. # [02:44] <iand> :)
187. # [02:44] * Philip` wonders if he should handle it differently
188. # [02:45] <Hixie> yeah, there's no real typing per se
189. # [02:45] <iand> the JSON output doesn't distinguish between a URI in href/src and a URI in content - in RDF it makes a difference (i.e. literal vs resource)
190. # [02:45] <Hixie> none of the use cases listed really needed it
191. # [02:45] <iand> not sure if it's important for the JSON
192. # [02:46] <Hixie> i wish i could find an abbreviation mechanism that didn't involve prefixes
193. # [02:46] <iand> I guess a big area that is missing for RDFa folks will be XMLLiterals, i.e. values of triples that contain markup
194. # [02:46] <Hixie> i looked at xml literals, but the use cases again didn't really need it, so i punted on it
195. # [02:46] <othermaciej> if the tag representing an item property contains markup and not just text, is it flattened to text?
196. # [02:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
197. # [02:47] <Hixie> (the goal is very much not to map rdf to html, but to solve specific problems that were raised)
198. # [02:47] <othermaciej> sure, I don't dispute that goal
199. # [02:47] <iand> Hixie: yes, I get that
200. # [02:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: the parenthetical was to iand, not you, sorry :-)
201. # [02:47] <othermaciej> I don't think being able to represent every feature of RDF is essential
202. # [02:47] <othermaciej> ok
203. # [02:48] <othermaciej> anyway, I think being able to map *from* microdata *to* RDF is the important direction
204. # [02:48] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@202.171.174.4) ("Leaving")
205. # [02:48] <iand> Hixie: did you look at the erdf usage of <link rel="schema.foaf" href="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/" /> for abbreviation
206. # [02:48] <iand> I borrowed it from dublin core conventions
207. # [02:49] <Hixie> yeah, but it's still a prefix
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210. # [02:49] <Philip`> You could use suffixes instead
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212. # [02:49] <Hixie> the problem is with separating the identifier into two parts
213. # [02:49] <iand> could you allow some sort of mapping of URIs to shortnames to be declared in the document?
214. # [02:50] <Hixie> whether that's prefixes, or an import mechanism, the problem still exists
215. # [02:50] <Hixie> i think long term the real solution will be the use of shorter vocab terms like com.example.foo and the use of predefined vocabs
216. # [02:50] <Hixie> which use short names
217. # [02:50] <iand> i.e. some way to declare that itemprop="name" maps to http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name
218. # [02:51] <Hixie> well for certain terms we can predefine them
219. # [02:51] <Hixie> but in general import mechanisms have many of the same problems as prefixes
220. # [02:52] <Hixie> maybe i should register term.md or some such, and let people register terms there on a first-come-first-served basis
221. # [02:52] <Hixie> md.term.foo
222. # [02:53] <iand> problem is that there are millions of possible predicates...
223. # [02:54] <Philip`> Say that any name that doesn't contain a '.' should have the string "http://tinyurl.com/" prepended and then be treated as a URL
224. # [02:54] <Hixie> heh
225. # [02:54] <Hixie> that's basically what we do now but with the w3.org prefix
226. # [02:54] <Philip`> since they've already got the unique-identifier-to-URL mapping database set up
227. # [02:55] <Philip`> so you still get the benefits of resolvable identifiers
228. # [02:55] <Hixie> term.md is $150
229. # [02:55] <Hixie> that seems excessive
230. # [02:55] <Philip`> The thing with the w3.org prefix has no mechanism for avoiding conflicts, whereas TinyURL guarantees a unique mapping
231. # [02:56] <Hixie> well that's the same as getting a domain where people can register domains
232. # [02:56] <Hixie> er
233. # [02:56] <Hixie> terms
234. # [02:56] <Philip`> Hixie: You could use that domain's name without bothering to register it
235. # [02:57] <iand> I don't think RDF people will get much value out of the reverse dns shortening, com.xmlns.foaf.0.1.name isn't a lot different to http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name
236. # [02:57] <iand> so I woudnt do anything special for them
237. # [02:57] <iand> er them includes me
238. # [02:58] <Philip`> I don't fancy using identifiers like uk.ac.cam.cl.www.pjt47.desc
239. # [02:58] <iand> as I said, the microdata spec works for me, barring a few wrinkles like languages
240. # [02:58] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
241. # [02:59] <Philip`> (partly since it's awfully ugly, partly since it won't be applicable for the rest of eternity)
242. # [02:59] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
243. # [03:00] <Hixie> iand: what's the languages wrinkle?
244. # [03:00] <Philip`> (but I don't have any other domain names that are likely to be relevant for eternity (or the next decade, which is basically eternity) either)
245. # [03:00] <Dashiva> Philip`: Isn't that problem the same whether you use URLs or rewerse domains?
246. # [03:00] <iand> Hixie: I'd like to say the title of my blog is in french
247. # [03:00] <iand> I tried adding a lang attribute on the span but it was ignored
248. # [03:01] <iand> it should really create a literal object with that language
249. # [03:01] <Philip`> Dashiva: Yes, so reverse domains don't provide any benefit but they're a bit harder to write (I have to think very carefully to avoid writing ac.uk.cam or uk.cam.ac etc)
250. # [03:01] <iand> <span itemprop="http://purl.org/dc/terms/title" lang="fr">Internet Alchemy</span>
251. # [03:01] <iand> should give
252. # [03:02] <iand> _:x <http://purl.org/dc/terms/title> "Internet Alchemy"@fr
253. # [03:02] <iand> I have no idea if that's idiomatic for html5
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255. # [03:02] * Philip` goes to bed before someone causes him to implement that language feature
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257. # [03:02] <Hixie> Philip`: hah
258. # [03:02] <Hixie> Philip`: nn (again)
259. # [03:03] <Hixie> iand: what's the magical phrase i should use to require that? Right now I say to "generate a triple" with a subject, predicate, object
260. # [03:03] <Hixie> iand: do i just add "language" as one of the fields that the "triple" has?
261. # [03:03] <Hixie> iand: (how does rdfa do it?)
262. # [03:04] <Hixie> "if there is a value for [current language] then the value of the [plain literal] should include this language information"
263. # [03:04] <Hixie> hm
264. # [03:04] <Hixie> i can do that
265. # [03:04] <Hixie> oh hey, a typed literal can't have a language?
266. # [03:05] <iand> no
267. # [03:05] <iand> they're exclusive
268. # [03:05] <iand> "A plain literal is a string combined with an optional language tag"
269. # [03:05] <iand> "A typed literal is a string combined with a datatype URI."
270. # [03:05] * Hixie tries to work out the difference between a url and a literal of some kind
271. # [03:06] <iand> what do you need to know?
272. # [03:07] <iand> when you generate a triple, the object is a URI ref if it has come from href/src attributes and a literal otherwise
273. # [03:08] <iand> the literal may have a datatype of xsd:datetime if the datetime attribute is present
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275. # [03:08] <iand> otherwise it will be a plain literal with a language tag taken from the value of the enclosing lang attribute if any
276. # [03:09] <Dashiva> Philip`: They have the benefit of not being URLs, and you save the http:// part too.
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278. # [03:15] <iand> ok, I'm off now- sleep calls
279. # [03:15] <Hixie> nn
280. # [03:15] <Hixie> and thanks for the help
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282. # [03:16] <Hixie> iand: ok, included language information
283. # [03:16] <Hixie> i didn't do <time> because that would be much more complex than is reasonable
284. # [03:17] <Hixie> (we'd have to check if it had a time, a date, a timezone, acting differently in each case; we'd have to reserialise, we'd have to handle invalid input cases, etc)
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294. # [04:03] <tantek> Hixie, what methodology are you using to choose new attribute names? (e.g. "property" vs. "prop" vs. "itemprop")
295. # [04:04] <tantek> (and while you're at it, why not consider "iprop"? it's shorter, has that catchy "i-" start etc. you could even then rename your use of "typeof" to "itype" for some indication of it being related. or even "iroot" 1/2 ;)
296. # [04:06] <othermaciej> iprop sounds pithy
297. # [04:08] <Dashiva> "Spec things first, bikeshed later"
298. # [04:19] <tantek> Dashiva - hence it helps to have a methodology (or at least principles to follow) for such things (like picking names) to avoid religious/bikeshed arguments.
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311. # [04:47] <Dashiva> tantek: You could also say that bikeshedding is probably going to happen anyway, for a feature like this.
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316. # [04:54] <tantek> Dashiva, indeed it is difficult to "avoid" 100% per se, one can only hope to reduce and perhaps somewhat minimize, especially over time.
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319. # [04:58] <Dashiva> Hmm, I suppose the design principles have worked like that. There are some arguments still, but they don't seem to last long.
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322. # [05:18] <Hixie> tantek: i use the "try to make things clear yet functional" methodology
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427. # [09:09] <Hixie> does anyone understand the proposal in http://www.w3.org/mid/9b3b213a0905111517o19503e0lea499ddd0547467@mail.gmail.com ?
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429. # [09:13] <othermaciej> O_O
430. # [09:13] <othermaciej> o_O
431. # [09:14] <othermaciej> O_o
432. # [09:15] <Hixie> that was my response
433. # [09:15] <Hixie> glad it's not just me
434. # [09:15] <jgraham> <aol>me too</aol>
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440. # [09:42] <krijnh> http://twitter.com/sandervdv/status/1765852544 - Hixie: you're not coming to Amsterdam? :)
441. # [09:42] <Hixie> trying not to travel at all this year, so that i can get html5 done
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443. # [09:43] <Hixie> (i did eventually reply to sandervdv after i saw his twitter -- turns out his e-mail had looked too much like spam)
444. # [09:43] <Hixie> (and i'd ignored it)
445. # [09:46] <krijnh> Jammer :)
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448. # [09:57] <Philip`> Hixie: The new language thing shouldn't apply to 'object', but that's left out of the list
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451. # [09:59] <Hixie> really? i distinctly remember including <object>
452. # [09:59] <Hixie> it's there
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454. # [09:59] <Hixie> between link and source
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456. # [10:00] <Philip`> Um...
457. # [10:00] <Philip`> Good point
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459. # [10:01] <Philip`> Demo now does languages (with very simplified processing of lang attributes)
460. # [10:01] <Hixie> is the processign hard?
461. # [10:03] <Philip`> It would be harder if I cared about restricting it to HTML elements, or about handling xml:lang or Content-Language
462. # [10:03] <Philip`> unless I'm missing something that makes it trivial
463. # [10:03] <Hixie> ah ok
464. # [10:03] <Hixie> unfortunately i don't think we expose the language magic to the dom yet
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470. # [10:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: you should coallesce any parse errors generated by an end tag having attributes into one error
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476. # [10:40] <Philip`> http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/05/the-bold-and-the-beautiful-two.html
477. # [10:44] <Philip`> ("Two new drafts out at W3C from the HTML 5 effort: HTML 5: The Markup Language (hat-tip Micah) and HTML 5: A vocabulary and associated APIs for HTML and XHTML ... The first one is a model of the kinds of standards-writing we need ...")
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480. # [10:49] * Hixie comments
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482. # [10:51] <Philip`> It's rare for me to find a blog post about HTML5 that you haven't already commented on
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484. # [10:52] <Hixie> heh
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491. # [11:07] <othermaciej> it "make simple objective statements that can be trivially implemented" eh?
492. # [11:11] <Hixie> he means implemented in a schema
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494. # [11:11] <Hixie> for a lot of people, that's the only meaning of implementation they use
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499. # [11:13] * Philip` wonders if many people are just allergic to writing code
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508. # [11:38] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements - now with itemprop
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510. # [11:45] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you could place the <title> in the textarea to make the demo work correctly
511. # [11:47] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Wouldn't that make the page invalid?
512. # [11:48] <zcorpan_> Philip`: yes but it would make the demo work correctly
513. # [11:48] <Philip`> Also, <title> is really boring so I can't imagine many people care about testing it much :-)
514. # [11:48] * zcorpan_ tested it
515. # [11:49] <zcorpan_> Philip`: if you care about validation you can move elements around with script
516. # [11:49] <Philip`> That would be a disgusting hack :-p
517. # [11:49] <zcorpan_> isn't the whole thing a hack anyway?
518. # [11:50] * maik|meeting is now known as maikmerten
519. # [11:51] <Philip`> Yes, but not a disgusting hack
520. # [11:55] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Changed it now so the <title> is in the textarea
521. # [11:55] <Philip`> (which makes Firefox not use it as the title for the page)
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526. # [12:04] <zcorpan_> Philip`: file a bug :)
527. # [12:13] <zcorpan_> "s2.2 I don't see what the need for gratuitously departing from SGML and XML is, allowing <!doctype html> rather than <!DOCTYPE html>." - isn't sgml case insensitive there?
528. # [12:16] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I find it hard to care sufficiently to file a bug :-(
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530. # [12:17] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you could bug hsivonen to fix it while he's touching all other code related to the parser in some way
531. # [12:18] <zcorpan_> Philip`: (i think there is magic glue between the parser and document.title in gecko)
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535. # [12:27] <Philip`> Is Opera Turbo meant to actually work?
536. # [12:27] <Philip`> As far as I can see, it only works when I've got it switched off and am on a fast connection
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538. # [12:29] <virtuelv> young van kesteren's new name is apparently "Ann": http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2007/02/ecs_moving_from_wellformed_xml.html
539. # [12:30] <virtuelv> Philip`: yes, it's supposed to work (and as far as I've been able to determine, it does, but it's still in alpha)
540. # [12:31] <virtuelv> (And, even from Opera's rather fat pipes here, I'm seeing significant speedups on a site like http://db.no/
541. # [12:31] <virtuelv> )
542. # [12:31] <Philip`> virtuelv: I can tell when it's active because all the images turn into ugly JPEGs :-)
543. # [12:33] <Philip`> It seems to be working now (when I'm on a wireless LAN), but I don't think I've been able to get it to do anything at all when I'm on a dialup (mobile broadband) connection
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546. # [12:33] * Philip` will have to experiment more
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550. # [12:38] <zcorpan_> ECS doesn't seem to support the kind of markup people use on the web - nested divs
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552. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> it also doesn't whine when you make this mistake: <p>Foo <code>bar<code> baz.</p>
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560. # [13:28] <Hixie> hsivonen is going to hate me
561. # [13:28] <Hixie> my next checkin introduces only about a bazillion conformance criteria
562. # [13:28] <Hixie> (wip at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#md-vcard)
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565. # [13:29] <Hixie> ok i'll continue this tomorrow
566. # [13:29] <Hixie> nn
567. # [13:32] <Philip`> hsivonen should like having bazillions of conformance criteria - it significantly raises the barriers to entry for competing conformance checkers, thus ensuring he retains market dominance
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569. # [13:35] * Philip` hopes predefined vocabularies will be moved out of the main spec document
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585. # [15:22] <hsivonen> Hmm. Why does N-Triples force everything to be ASCII instead of being UTF-8?
586. # [15:22] <hsivonen> it seems annoying to have to escape all non-ASCII
587. # [15:23] <Philip`> Does anyone use N-Triples?
588. # [15:24] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Notation3 says "N3 files are encoded in UTF-8 (See RFC2279), in normalized in Normalization Form C."
589. # [15:24] <Philip`> http://www.dajobe.org/2004/01/turtle/ says "A Turtle document is a Unicode[UNICODE] character string encoded in UTF-8. Unicode codepoints only in the range U+0 to U+10FFFF inclusive are allowed."
590. # [15:24] <hsivonen> I don't know, but escape for the requirement to escape non-ASCII, N-Triples seems like it's the cleanest format for expressing RDF
591. # [15:25] <hsivonen> I wonder how one could produce a Unicode codepoint that isn't in that range
592. # [15:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably using some higher version of the unicode standard that allows more codepoints
593. # [15:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok
594. # [15:28] <hsivonen> I was thinking of implementing the microdata RDF conversion by having Java model classes for microdata and making them expose Jena RDF interfaces, but the Jena RDF interfaces have way too much stuff to implement
595. # [15:28] * Philip` wonders how you represent literals' languages in N-Triples
596. # [15:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: langString ::= '"' string '"' ( '@' language )?
597. # [15:30] <Philip`> Oh, right, I was looking at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ntriples/
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600. # [15:36] <Philip`> Hmm, if I click a fragment link in a page then the subjects of all the triples change
601. # [15:36] <Philip`> (because they're set to the document's current address)
602. # [15:44] <hsivonen> Also, it seems that an absolute URL is always ASCII per spec
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604. # [15:44] <hsivonen> so it seems IRIs that aren't also URIs can't be used as property names
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608. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it could if they are ASCIIfied in the RDF output algorithm
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611. # [15:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: but RDF allows IRI-ish property names, right?
612. # [15:50] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: dunno, i thought you were referring to the RDF spec
613. # [15:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I was referring to HTML5 microdata
614. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: HTML5 defines 'absolute URL' via resolving the URL
615. # [15:51] <zcorpan_> ok
616. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: and resolving seems to URIfy
617. # [15:52] <zcorpan_> does RDF make a difference between property names that use percent escaping and those that don't?
618. # [15:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: my understanding is that they are different
619. # [15:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: but I'm not an RDF expert
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621. # [15:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: IIRC, they are like XML namespaces: compared as strings
622. # [15:54] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: btw, the n3 syntax allows \UHHHHHHHH escapes for unicode code points
623. # [15:54] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
624. # [15:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yes, but it's human-unfriendly if the text is mostly non-ASCII
625. # [15:55] <hsivonen> (assuming a text editor--not a dedicated RDF editor)
626. # [15:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it was more re how to use characters above U+10FFFF
627. # [15:55] <hsivonen> oh
628. # [15:55] <hsivonen> but those aren't Unicode code points by definition :-)
629. # [15:56] <zcorpan_> true
630. # [15:57] <zcorpan_> still seems weird that it has eight instead of six "H"es
631. # [15:57] <Philip`> It's just copying Python
632. # [15:58] * zcorpan_ didn't know python had the same weirdness
633. # [16:00] <Philip`> I might be wrong
634. # [16:01] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe I'm not; \Uxxxxxxxx works in Python 2.5
635. # [16:02] * Philip` can't find when it was introduced
636. # [16:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: my photostream on Flickr and set views are examples of pages that have multiple media items with different licenses
637. # [16:04] <hsivonen> (my photos are either ARR or CC-by on a case-by-case basis)
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644. # [16:20] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html - now with fancier and more readable (and hopefully syntactically valid and representing the correct triples) N3 output
645. # [16:20] <hsivonen> I wonder what charter this artifact is being produced and published under: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/html4-rdfa-1.dtd
646. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: is there a way to feed content to your script using <textarea>?
647. # [16:23] <Philip`> hsivonen: Uh... Copy-and-paste?
648. # [16:23] <Philip`> Maybe I'm not sure what you mean
649. # [16:23] <hsivonen> ooh. I see the textarea now
650. # [16:23] <jgraham> Philip`: Your UI is not that obvious :)
651. # [16:23] <hsivonen> the layout of the page is so cluttered that I missed it
652. # [16:23] <Philip`> jgraham: Very true :-)
653. # [16:23] <jgraham> Philip`: Especially in Firefox where the json doesn't wrap
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655. # [16:24] <Philip`> Suggestions and/or implementations of improved UIs would be welcome
656. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: it would help if the JSON output didn't overlap the input
657. # [16:26] <Philip`> It doesn't, when I look at it in Firefox 3.0
658. # [16:26] <Philip`> Is your screen 320 pixels wide?
659. # [16:26] <hsivonen> 1650 px wide window
660. # [16:27] <Philip`> How is the JSON wide enough to reach the input box? It should only be a few dozen characters wide...
661. # [16:27] <hsivonen> layout code checked out of trunk a bit over a week ago
662. # [16:28] <jgraham> Philip`: I guess the JSON in firefox 3.5 no longer has line breaks
663. # [16:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's all on one line
664. # [16:28] <Philip`> Oh
665. # [16:28] <Philip`> That's not good
666. # [16:28] <Philip`> Does it have a native implementation of window.JSON that differs from the scripted one?
667. # [16:29] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes
668. # [16:29] <Philip`> That's not good
669. # [16:30] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes it is. Just not in this case
670. # [16:31] <Philip`> So much for "don't break the web"
671. # [16:31] * Philip` is just using the standard JSON2.js
672. # [16:32] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like ES3.1 specifies something that does support indentation
673. # [16:32] <Philip`> Maybe FF3.5 just hasn't implemented it?
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675. # [16:33] <Philip`> Uploaded a new version that uses the non-native JSON implementation
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678. # [16:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
679. # [16:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: your impl doesn't deal with <time> elements that have the datetime in element content
680. # [16:39] <Philip`> "If the element is a time element with a datetime attribute: The value is the value of the element's datetime attribute."
681. # [16:39] <Philip`> I think I'm doing what the spec says
682. # [16:40] <hsivonen> oh.
683. # [16:40] <Philip`> Maybe I'm not
684. # [16:40] <Philip`> since I forgot the "with a datetime attribute" bit
685. # [16:42] <Philip`> hsivonen: Fixed
686. # [16:42] <hsivonen> thanks
687. # [16:43] <Philip`> This N3 output is actually surprisingly readable now
688. # [16:43] <Philip`> particularly for input like http://iandavis.com/2009/microdata/
689. # [16:45] <jgraham> Philip`: You have rather low standards for what is readable :)
690. # [16:48] <Philip`> jgraham: I'm comparing it to the old non-nested version that was full of explicit blank nodes and a seemingly random ordering of triples, and I think it's a significant step up from that :-)
691. # [16:53] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh well I aagree that it may not be the most unreadable syntax it is possible to imagine
692. # [16:53] <jgraham> But the whole concept of using URIs to identify things other than webpages torpedos readability from the start
693. # [16:55] * Philip` can't easily imagine a syntax that would be much more readable, expressing the same data
694. # [16:57] <jgraham> Philip`: Assuming the same underlying concepts, macro expansions would make it more readable like def:ian davis=><http://iandavis.com/id/me>
695. # [16:58] <jgraham> Ian Davis a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person>
696. # [16:58] <jgraham> (obviously you would need more syntax somehow to distinguish macros from other things)
697. # [16:59] <jgraham> Like ref:(Ian Davis) a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person>
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699. # [17:00] <jgraham> (and this would be bad for other reasons like copy and paste)
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705. # [17:10] <Philip`> jgraham: That should be rdf:type rather than a, based on the current implementation :-)
706. # [17:10] * Philip` wonders why they didn't use a keyword like "isa" so that it would actually make some intuitive sense
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708. # [17:11] * Philip` wonders if jgraham is looking at an old version of the output...
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710. # [17:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh, I see. The page had the old output at the bottom, so I was looking at that instead of the new output further down the page
711. # [17:13] <jgraham> s/The page/The page with the embedded microdata/
712. # [17:14] <jgraham> I guess the new version is a bit more readable
713. # [17:14] <Philip`> Ah
714. # [17:16] <Philip`> Evidence suggests my UI is rubbish :-(
715. # [17:16] <Philip`> which is not too surprising since my entire UI design basically consists of style="width: 50%; float: right"
716. # [17:17] <hsivonen> I wonder if the current microdata spec is too loose when it comes to ensuring that microdata can be mapped to RDF/XML
717. # [17:17] <hsivonen> specifically, I don't see requirements of certain strings being limited to NCNames
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719. # [17:24] <Philip`> hsivonen: What strings need to be limited to that?
720. # [17:25] * Philip` thought everything could just be expressed as an unabbreviated URI in an attribute value
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723. # [17:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh. I thought properties needed to become qnames in RDF/XML
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725. # [17:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe they do; I know nothing about RDF
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730. # [17:30] <Philip`> hsivonen: (Even if that's the case, I don't see why it ought to be restricted to the subset that's mappable to RDF/XML)
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732. # [17:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: (Presumably RDF people don't like being restricted to that subset, since N3 and Turtle are intentionally and explicitly more expressive than RDF/XML)
733. # [17:32] <hsivonen> ah, OK
734. # [17:33] <hsivonen> I find that surprising
735. # [17:34] <Philip`> (http://www.dajobe.org/2004/01/turtle/ - "The recommended XML syntax for RDF, RDF/XML ([RDF-XML]) has certain restrictions imposed by XML and the use of XML Namespaces that prevent it encoding all RDF graphs (some predicate URIs are forbidden and XML 1.0 forbids encoding some Unicode codepoints). These restrictions do not apply to Turtle.")
736. # [17:34] <Philip`> (which makes it sound like it's a feature of Turtle rather than a bug or a hazard)
737. # [17:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: it might be a good idea to note that the RDF graphs produces by the algorithm may not be serializable as RDF/XML
738. # [17:36] <Philip`> They might not be serialisable as N3/Turtle either
739. # [17:36] <Philip`> e.g. if you have lang="foo bar"
740. # [17:37] <Philip`> or if you have itemprop=">"
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742. # [17:42] * Philip` wonders why so much time has been spent discussing the RDF extraction of microdata, and very little about the JSON
743. # [17:44] <hsivonen> I wonder what "html:abbr" is about in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/components/microformats/src/Microformats.js#345
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745. # [17:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://www.codingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-49227.html ?
746. # [17:51] <Philip`> (several posts down)
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749. # [17:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: html:abbr as an IE workaround? that's sad
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752. # [17:58] <Philip`> Doesn't seem to be a commonly used pattern in practice, but maybe whoever was writing that code liked it or saw a site that relied on it
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754. # [18:10] <Philip`> http://waffle.wootest.net/2009/05/11/rdf-2/ - "The Microdata section of the HTML5 draft might be one of its finest moments."
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756. # [18:15] <jgraham> """I'm starting to tune out the HTML 5 meta-discussions [...] the emo-drama that people insist on manufacturing… “is such a buzz-kill."""
757. # [18:16] <Philip`> Emu drama?
758. # [18:16] <Philip`> Oh
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760. # [18:19] <jgraham> Philip`: BTW, I expect the lack of discussion about the JSON format is because JSON is more interesting to people who just do things rather than people who architecture things
761. # [18:20] <Philip`> Shouldn't there at least be someone complaining that 'item.properties.foo[0]' is much harder to type than 'item.foo' and in most cases will be equivalent?
762. # [18:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: where's 'emo-drama' quoted from?
763. # [18:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://shawn.medero.net/
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787. # [19:31] <tantek> hsivonen, regarding "I wonder what html:abbr is about in Microformats.js" - see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#all_properties - and I invite you to #microformats for any additional comments.
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792. # [19:38] <Philip`> tantek: That seems to just talk about the normal element named "abbr", not the crazy element named "html:abbr"
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794. # [19:39] <tantek> Philp - is that some sort of oblique namespaces joke? I don't quite understand.
795. # [19:41] <Philip`> tantek: No - it's about the element with localName == "html:abbr"
796. # [19:42] <Philip`> (which is impossible to get when you parse XML, but is what you get if you parse "<html:abbr>" in a text/html parser that's not IE)
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813. # [20:21] <Groovy> since when google.com uses <!doctype html> ?
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822. # [20:40] <Philip`> Groovy: Since several months ago, at least
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825. # [20:41] <Philip`> Groovy: (though only on a few of their pages)
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837. # [21:04] <Wolfman2000> Afternoon. I'm trying to make some sense of the new HTML5 tags, and I want to be sure I understand their semantics. <nav> vs. <menu>: it seems that both are to be used for navigation links...and yet only <menu> directly accepts <li>. What is the proper way of using those tags?
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842. # [21:18] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: You probably want <nav>
843. # [21:19] <jgraham> <menu> is designed for building application menus but it isn't really supported yet
844. # [21:19] * jgraham goes to check he isn't talking rubbish
845. # [21:20] <gsnedders> nav is for primary navigation, menu is for something that I've never needed and thus can't remember what it is for
846. # [21:20] <Wolfman2000> The next question then: <article> vs <section>. It seems that there are many sections per article, btu there can be many articles per page. Is an article supposed to represent an entire page, or just the content usually between <header> and <footer>? (I can rephrase if needed)
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848. # [21:22] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: You can have multiple <article>s per page
849. # [21:23] <jgraham> e.g. <article><h1>My first news item</h1></article> <article><h1>My second news item</h1></article>
850. # [21:23] <Wolfman2000> ...and what if the items are not really...well, news/blog related?
851. # [21:23] <jgraham> No problem
852. # [21:24] <Wolfman2000> My original understanding: using a two column layout, <header> at top, <article> for main column, <nav>/<menu> for navigation on secondary column, <footer> on bottom. Is this still valid thinking?
853. # [21:24] <jgraham> That seems reasonable
854. # [21:25] <Wolfman2000> ...long as I'm not required to have <header> and <footer> in <article>/<section>, I may be able to make something work.
855. # [21:25] <Wolfman2000> I'm currently redesigning one of my websites, and I've been convinced to at least look into HTML5. It seems to reduce my need for IDs at least.
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858. # [21:29] <Philip`> http://google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=146898 - someone should tell them about <hX> elements instead of <strong>
859. # [21:30] <Philip`> Aren't their CURIEs resulting in URIs like "http://rdf.data-vocabulary.orgreview"?
860. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: I suggest Philip`.
861. # [21:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: Huh?
862. # [21:33] <gsnedders> Philip`: To tell them about hX
863. # [21:33] <jgraham> Philip`: If only there were a google employee around who could file a bug
864. # [21:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: They don't seem to provide any way to provide feedback
865. # [21:33] <Philip`> so complaining on IRC is the most effective thing to do
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872. # [21:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess a polarizing filter darkens the sky because the light in unpolarized and hence polarizing it makes it less intense?
873. # [21:49] <Philip`> Hah
874. # [21:49] <Philip`> One example says xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/"
875. # [21:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well that is true
876. # [21:49] <Philip`> All the others say xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org"
877. # [21:50] <jgraham> But it's not really the relevant fact
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880. # [21:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: The point is that the light from the sky is partially polarised (because it is scattered light from the atmosphere and scattering polarises light in a way that depends on the angle of scattering)
881. # [21:51] <Philip`> <spanspan property="v:locality">Springfield</span>
882. # [21:51] <Philip`> I think they need to do a bit of QA on these help pages
883. # [21:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: And as a consequence, with the polarizer set to the right angle you can eliminate almost all of the scattering from the sky
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885. # [21:52] <jgraham> s/scattering/light/
886. # [21:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: ah
887. # [21:52] <jgraham> (or t least from those regions of the sky that are heavilly polarised)
888. # [21:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is this a physics question or a photography question?
889. # [21:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: a physics of photography question :)
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893. # [21:53] <jgraham> Philip`: But evryone knows that http://example.com/ === http://example.com
894. # [21:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: (It's random curiosity, really, but from a physics POV)
895. # [21:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh that's OK. If it's curiosity I don't need to worry to much about being right
896. # [21:54] <Philip`> jgraham: I do hope Google's implementation doesn't just look for the prefix "v:"
897. # [21:54] * weinig is now known as ggaren
898. # [21:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: Apart from generic URI parsers that don't know about what RFC2616 defines on-top about scheme specific normalization
899. # [21:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: :P
900. # [21:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: "parsers" fail to meet the definition of "everybody" since "body" here specifically means "human body"
901. # [21:55] <jgraham> Philip`: Didn't Hixie say that the Google implementation of some microdata stuff just used regexps
902. # [21:56] <Wolfman2000> ...if only the Tidy HTML Validator extension I had recognized HTML5, it would make things easier...
903. # [21:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: yes
904. # [21:56] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: http://validator.nu
905. # [21:56] <Wolfman2000> jgraham: the page I'm working on is not live yet
906. # [21:57] <jgraham> http://html5.validator.nu/ is better actually
907. # [21:57] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: Either change the "Address" dropdown to "textarea"
908. # [21:57] <jgraham> or go through some pain to get a local install
909. # [21:57] <Wolfman2000> ...gotta love javascript powered fields
910. # [21:58] <Philip`> jgraham: No
911. # [21:58] <Philip`> jgraham: "Google's handling of RDF blocks for license declarations is all done with regular expressions instead of actually parsing the namespaces"
912. # [22:01] <jgraham> Philip`: That sounds quite close if you s/microdata/license declarations/
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914. # [22:04] <Philip`> jgraham: For some reason I thought you said "RDFa" in your statement
915. # [22:04] <Philip`> but the evidence indicates that you didn't
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920. # [22:10] <Wolfman2000> ...and with the help of the new HTML5 tags (and some abuse of child selectors), I've trimmed out the <divs> and id=s from my main page. The other pages...will take some time.
921. # [22:11] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: Has everything broken awfully in IE? :-)
922. # [22:11] <Wolfman2000> Philip`: javascript workaround. :P
923. # [22:12] <Wolfman2000> honestly, I don't really care about IE
924. # [22:14] <Philip`> (Looking at http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/rdf.xml, I guess xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org" and xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/" are *both* wrong, and it ought to be xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#")
925. # [22:15] <Wolfman2000> ...right, form elements should keep their IDs. That's fine.
926. # [22:15] * ggaren is now known as weinig
927. # [22:15] <Philip`> (but presumably Google can add some hacks in their parser to make it all work)
928. # [22:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah but all your photos have their own pages, so the photostreams and set views don't have to be machine-readable
929. # [22:21] <Wolfman2000> I'd like confirmation via this picture. http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1kpe.png Left sidebar uses <nav> & <ul> for its links. Center, horizontal links use <ul> by itself, no <nav>. Am I using the tags properly?
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946. # [23:20] <Hixie> anyone remember where Philip`'s parser state diagram is?
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949. # [23:24] <Dashiva> I don't know if it's the most recent, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/states10.png
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953. # [23:28] <Hixie> Dashiva: sweet, thanks
954. # [23:30] <Hixie> oh hey, the very next comment where i needed those for was philip giving links to them
955. # [23:30] <Dashiva> haha
956. # [23:33] <Hixie> so when yahoo came out with their "rdfa support", some people on the rdfa list quickly poked holes in it showing it wasn't exactly following the specs
957. # [23:34] <Hixie> i wonder how long it'll be before someone tries to test google's rdfa support
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962. # [23:43] <roc> not in SVG format? Shame!
963. # [23:43] <Hixie> the one philip linked to was
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969. # Session Close: Wed May 13 00:00:00 2009

The end :)