/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 13 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-135-6.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> i like how shelley complains that the discussion on microdata is split between whatwg and public-html
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> given that she was the one who split it
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> (it was all on whatwg until she cross-posted it to public-html)
  7. # [00:06] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  8. # [00:07] <KevinMarks> @hixie, well it didn't take long: http://iandavis.com/blog/2009/05/googles-rdfa-a-damp-squib
  9. # [00:10] <Philip`> Today I have learnt that Gmail's basic HTML view completely ignores one's attempts to have multiple sender addresses
  10. # [00:10] * Philip` switches to the expensive view and resends the message that got bounced...
  11. # [00:11] <othermaciej> Google inventing their own scheme is a demonstration of the main problem with RDF
  12. # [00:11] <othermaciej> it's a mechanism with no standard vocabulary, and tools won't really be able to do useful things with your data unless you agree on a vocabulary
  13. # [00:11] <othermaciej> thus defeating the goal of decentralized extensibility
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  15. # [00:11] <KevinMarks> I thought that was the main advantage of RDF? That's what I'm told when I talk about microformats and agreement being key
  16. # [00:12] <KevinMarks> parsing is easy, agreement is hard
  17. # [00:13] <othermaciej> RDF doesn't require any agreement on vocabulary so long as you don't need to communicate information
  18. # [00:14] <Philip`> Hixie: It's hard to poke holes in Google's RDFa support when it seemingly provides no way to test it, other than owning a site which Google's algorithms and policies deem appropriate to be parsed
  19. # [00:15] <roc> It's useful to support multiparty agreements on vocabulary without going through a central registry
  20. # [00:15] <roc> *how* useful is unclear
  21. # [00:16] <gsnedders> KevinMarks: The problem is to communicate anything you need agreement. It's the hard part you need to get right, the easy part is less important. RDF gets the priority the wrong way around, IMO.
  22. # [00:17] <jwalden> lazyirc: what's the URL of the websockets spec?
  23. # [00:18] <roc> is it my imagination or is Ian Davis saying "They’ve ... thrown away the best [part of RDFa] – the decentralized vocabularies of terms." ... when his real problem is that they didn't use FOAF, i.e., that they *exploited* decentralization?
  24. # [00:18] <KevinMarks> gsnedders: exactly. Thats the point of the microformats process, to converge agreement.
  25. # [00:18] <gsnedders> jwalden: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=websockets+api&l=1
  26. # [00:19] <gsnedders> roc: Yeah, I saw that too.
  27. # [00:19] <jwalden> gsnedders: there's only a w3.org version? no whatwg version that's latest-svn?
  28. # [00:19] <gsnedders> jwalden: No whatwg version
  29. # [00:19] <othermaciej> gsnedders: that site is awesome
  30. # [00:19] <jwalden> boo-urns
  31. # [00:20] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Fun fact: I had to Google to find its URL :)
  32. # [00:20] <Philip`> roc: They aren't exploiting decentralisation, because they're centralising everything to data-vocabulary.org
  33. # [00:21] <roc> I suppose that's one way of looking at it
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  35. # [00:22] <Philip`> They're running everything in their own little walled garden, where you use Google's vocabularies to interact with Google's tools
  36. # [00:22] <Philip`> (Well, maybe not "little", more like "gigantic", but the point is otherwise similar)
  37. # [00:23] <roc> oh, Ian Davis is also suggesting that it's a deliberate attempt by Google to destroy RDFa
  38. # [00:23] <Philip`> Decentralisation would mean anybody could make their own vocabularies and have them interact usefully with Google's tools, I guess
  39. # [00:24] <Philip`> (e.g. I could define my own vocabulary that's a subclass of one Google supports, and then they'd parse the RDF that describes my vocabulary and support it too)
  40. # [00:24] <Philip`> (perhaps)
  41. # [00:24] <Philip`> (though actually I know basically nothing about RDF, so this might be entirely wrong)
  42. # [00:25] <KevinMarks> how? how on earth would they support displaying it in snippets if they don't know what you mean by it?
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  45. # [00:27] <Philip`> KevinMarks: You can define your vocabulary to be a subclass of theirs, and then they can treat your data as if it was in their vocabulary
  46. # [00:27] <Philip`> I'm assuming that's kind of the point of using RDF to describe RDF vocabularies
  47. # [00:28] <gsnedders> Fun fact: the W3C TR list RDF didn't conform to its own RDFs
  48. # [00:28] <KevinMarks> this is the point in the conversation where I start thinking that RDF actually stands for Recursive Descent Forever
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  53. # [00:34] <Hixie> Philip`: i assure you that whatever else we might be doing, we're not fetching the rdf vocab definitions and doing things with subclassing
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  55. # [00:37] <Philip`> Surely it's not that hard - you can have "<#me> rdf:type :Man" and ":Man rdfs:subClassOf :Person" and then add some more triples saying that x rdf:type y and y rdfs:subClassOf z implies x rdf:type z
  56. # [00:37] <Philip`> and then you dump it all into your triple store and crank the handle and an answer comes out
  57. # [00:38] <Philip`> I just made up all that up so it's probably not true but that's how I'd do if I wasn't constrained by sanity
  58. # [00:39] <Philip`> Hixie: Indeed, so it just seems like a complex syntactic alternative to microformats and a bit pointless
  59. # [00:39] <roc> is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ loading for anyone else?
  60. # [00:39] <Hixie> wfm
  61. # [00:41] <gsnedders> et moi
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  64. # [00:42] <roc> sigh
  65. # [00:43] * Hixie is confused as to what the point of the "label" type in vcard is
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  67. # [00:44] <KevinMarks> label is unstructured address
  68. # [00:46] <Hixie> right but what's the point?
  69. # [00:47] <Hixie> interestingly in norm's vcard ontology, he puts the label inside the address
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  71. # [00:47] <KevinMarks> maybe you don't have a structured address, just a string
  72. # [00:48] <KevinMarks> thats how we mapped it into PortableContacts
  73. # [00:48] <KevinMarks> the original spec talks about using it to print an address label
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  75. # [00:49] <KevinMarks> "This property specifies the addressing label for physical delivery to the person/object associated with the vCard. The property is intended to include the information necessary to create a formatted delivery address label."
  76. # [00:50] <KevinMarks> and has CR/LF's in it
  77. # [00:50] <Philip`> (Are RDFa property attributes case-sensitive? If so, the Google help pages got that wrong too ("dtreviewed" vs "dtReviewed"))
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  92. # [01:21] <Hixie> i wonder where kevin quoted that from
  93. # [01:22] <Hixie> doesn't seem to be in rfc2426
  94. # [01:23] <Philip`> Hixie: There's this clever new web site known as a "search engine", which lets you answer questions like that
  95. # [01:24] <Philip`> e.g. http://www.imc.org/pdi/vcard-21.txt
  96. # [01:25] <Hixie> i tried that
  97. # [01:25] <Philip`> (That looks like a bad conversion of http://www.imagescript.com/atg/resources/vcard-21.doc)
  98. # [01:25] <Hixie> before asking :-)
  99. # [01:25] <Hixie> apparently the string i used was broken in some way
  100. # [01:26] <Hixie> weird
  101. # [01:27] <Philip`> A likely excuse
  102. # [01:30] <Hixie> i wonder why that text got lost in the conversion to rfc
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  117. # [02:40] <Hixie> wtf, vcard contains the lat long position 37.386013;-122.082932
  118. # [02:40] <Hixie> which when i look it up
  119. # [02:40] <Hixie> turns out to be within cycling distance of where i'm sitting
  120. # [02:40] <Hixie> freaky
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  123. # [02:57] <franksalim> that's 0.7 miles from me
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  128. # [03:21] <karlcow> [18:07] <othermaciej> Google inventing their own scheme is a demonstration of the main problem with RDF
  129. # [03:21] <karlcow> not at all. The problem here is not RDF but power. Small communities can still invent their own vocabularies and that is good. Google here is creating a new vocabulary AND they have the power to impose it.
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  131. # [03:25] <Hixie> ok, author conformance criteria for the vCard vocabulary are now defined: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#vcard
  132. # [03:25] <Hixie> (it's basically the same as hCard, but defined in detail)
  133. # [03:30] <heycam> "The item with the type vcard has an fn property value consists of a string with exactly one sequence of space characters, and it neither at the immediate start nor the immediate end of the string."
  134. # [03:30] <heycam> missing a word (maybe "occurs")
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  136. # [03:34] <Hixie> thanks
  137. # [03:35] <Hixie> wow that whole sentence was broken in many ways
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  197. # [09:02] <hsivonen> hmm. so even the super-smart googlers make mistakes with Namespaces in their RDFa documentation
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  203. # [09:30] <hsivonen> I wonder what kind of havoc will ensue now that Google uses the de facto VML prefix for another purpose
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  208. # [10:00] <hsivonen> "<p><strong>Blast 'Em Up Review</strong></p>
  209. # [10:00] <hsivonen> "
  210. # [10:01] <hsivonen> It's a semantic heading, because it uses <strong> and <strong> is semantic
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  217. # [10:38] * Philip` tries posting somewhere that uses reCAPTCHA, and finds that it rejects two attempts even though the image was pretty clear and he's almost entirely certain he typed the words in correctly
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  223. # [10:56] <Philip`> http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/05/google-announces-support-for-m.html - xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org "
  224. # [10:57] <Philip`> Honestly, how hard can it be to get a namespace string right?
  225. # [10:57] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  226. # [10:58] <jgraham> Philip`: Too hard, it seems :)
  227. # [10:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: very, very hard, evidently
  228. # [10:58] <hsivonen> I have a special program that hooks into accessibility APIs for inputting namespace URIs
  229. # [10:59] <hsivonen> (I don't use it for anything else. really.)
  230. # [10:59] <hsivonen> (Typinator)
  231. # [10:59] <jgraham> (partially because curies doing simple concatenation violates all sorts of assumptions that people have e.g. http://foo/ and http://foo being assumed the same but treated differently)
  232. # [11:00] <Philip`> Looks like Google's updated their help pages to include the trailing "/" now
  233. # [11:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: in fairness, that not a CURIE bug per se. It's an issue that goes back to Namespaces itself
  234. # [11:00] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
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  236. # [11:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: Really? Maybe I don't fully understand either then
  237. # [11:01] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
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  239. # [11:01] <jgraham> Well I guess you just mean that a namespace has to be a literal string
  240. # [11:01] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  241. # [11:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: xmlns='http://foo' and xmlns='http://foo/' are distinct namespaces ever since Namespaces
  242. # [11:01] * Philip` notes that people may make exactly the same mistakes in mistyping HTML5 microdata itemprop values
  243. # [11:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: not if the vocabulary designer has the good sense not to mint URI-based vocabularies
  244. # [11:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: People mistype non-URI strings too
  245. # [11:06] <Philip`> So, maybe not exactly the same mistakes
  246. # [11:06] <Philip`> but mistakes with the same effects :-)
  247. # [11:07] <Hixie> not quite the same effect
  248. # [11:07] <Hixie> it'll break the one occurrence
  249. # [11:07] <Hixie> not the whole page
  250. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: I see that as an argument to bring microdata into the sphere of validation instead of keeping it as an anything goes zone with possibly 'spurious triples'
  251. # [11:07] <jgraham> Philip`: I think it is a usability issue to use strings that people expect to behave in one way (like they do in their browser address bar) in a context where they are treated entirely differently (as a pure literal)
  252. # [11:14] * Quits: riven (n=colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.")
  253. # [11:16] <Philip`> As far as I can tell, the biggest problem with Google's microformats/RDFa support is that they don't provide any way to test it, so it's impossible to tell whether you've got it right or not
  254. # [11:18] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@115.128.41.210)
  255. # [11:19] <Philip`> (...where "you" is a person who's tried to mark up data on their page)
  256. # [11:22] <hsivonen> I want to test what happens if
  257. # [11:22] <hsivonen> 1) I don't declare the prefix v
  258. # [11:22] <hsivonen> 2) I declare it to another URI
  259. # [11:22] <hsivonen> 3) I declare the right URI to be bound to another prefix
  260. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Considering that Y! hard-coded some prefixes, I think it's too early to say that Google hasn't done the same
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  265. # [11:32] <aja> is there an example html5 vcard anywhere?
  266. # [11:33] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@dyn121.roaming.few.vu.nl)
  267. # [11:33] * aja wants to make sure he's reading microdata stuff correctly
  268. # [11:36] <Philip`> aja: There isn't one yet, as far as I'm aware
  269. # [11:36] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-42-10.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  270. # [11:37] <jgraham> aja: Make one :)
  271. # [11:39] * riven`` is now known as riven
  272. # [11:40] <aja> not sure whether/where to use item= or itemprop=
  273. # [11:43] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-24-6-168-212.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("out til Tuesday")
  274. # [11:43] <Philip`> <div item=vcard> and then everything else is itemprop
  275. # [11:43] <Philip`> as far as I can tell
  276. # [11:44] <Philip`> (The spec says "vcard" is a (predefined) type, and everything else is a (predefined) property name)
  277. # [11:45] <jgraham> FWIW I think itemprop is a terrible name
  278. # [11:45] <jgraham> and that seems like one good reason why
  279. # [11:45] <aja> Philip`: that's what i thought, too
  280. # [11:45] <Philip`> jgraham: Got any better suggestions? :-)
  281. # [11:46] <jgraham> Philip`: property ;)
  282. # [11:46] <jgraham> Or key
  283. # [11:47] <jgraham> propertyname is rather long
  284. # [11:47] <aja> was originally property...changed to itemprop shortly thereafter (why? i dunno)
  285. # [11:48] <jgraham> aja: Because property has theoretical conflicts with future versions of RDFa
  286. # [11:48] <aja> makes sense
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  289. # [11:59] <Hixie> aja: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/387
  290. # [11:59] <Hixie> except s/property/itemprop/
  291. # [12:00] <aja> gotcha....tks
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  293. # [12:01] * aja was pondering how to do include-pattern sorta things
  294. # [12:01] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@194.102.13.6)
  295. # [12:01] <Hixie> aja: subject="" is the only way of doing include-like things yet
  296. # [12:01] <Hixie> i was thinking of adding <ref/> in a future version
  297. # [12:01] <Hixie> but probably not in html5
  298. # [12:02] <aja> hmmm....interesting
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  301. # [12:06] <aja> Hixie: might subject being possibly plural work?
  302. # [12:07] <Hixie> how do you mean?
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  304. # [12:08] <aja> eg...any org name up on a site's header....being able to be used in multiple vcards further down the page
  305. # [12:10] <aja> or single vcard being used on multiple calendar enties...that sorta thing
  306. # [12:12] <Hixie> for the latter i think <ref> makes more sense
  307. # [12:12] <Philip`> <div item=vcard id=me>...</div> <div item=calendar><meta itemprop=owner object=me>...</div>
  308. # [12:12] <Hixie> (if we eventually add it)
  309. # [12:12] <Hixie> and for the former, well... use <meta>, i guess
  310. # [12:13] <Hixie> do we have any other attributes that take space-separated lists of ids?
  311. # [12:13] <Hixie> Philip`: that's more or less what <Ref> would be
  312. # [12:15] <aja> only html profile for GRDDL, that i'm aware of, off type of my head.....,.and that's meta now anyway
  313. # [12:15] * Joins: riven`` (n=colin@53525B67.cable.casema.nl)
  314. # [12:16] <aja> n/m...ids
  315. # [12:19] * Philip` likes how Vodafone has developed open source Linux software in Python for their devices
  316. # [12:19] <Philip`> (It's not officially supported, but it seems much better than what the other mobile providers have done on Linux (i.e. nothing, as far as I can tell))
  317. # [12:21] * jgraham likes how Vodaphone have developed Linux software for the mobile broadband thing he has
  318. # [12:21] <aja> no Android apps site out there yet? ;)
  319. # [12:21] <Philip`> jgraham: That's the specific software I'm thinking of :-)
  320. # [12:21] <Philip`> Too bad I can't get it to actually work, though
  321. # [12:21] * Hixie is starting to get a headache from the iCalendar spec
  322. # [12:23] <Hixie> i like how vcard and icalendar are almost compatible but not quite
  323. # [12:23] <Hixie> e.g. they have subtly different formats for times and dates
  324. # [12:23] <jgraham> Philip`: It seems to both work and not work for me. The whole UI seems to be broken. The actual part that allows me to connect to the internet seems to work
  325. # [12:23] <Hixie> or e.g. how iCalendar requires the PRODID line but vcard doesn't
  326. # [12:24] <Philip`> jgraham: I managed to connect without that software at all, just using normal PPP stuff, so that's alright
  327. # [12:25] <hsivonen> It's a small miracle that calendaring apps interoperate at all
  328. # [12:25] <Philip`> Do calendaring apps actually interoperate at all?
  329. # [12:25] <Hixie> iCalendar isn't that bad
  330. # [12:26] <Hixie> it's better than many web specs on which we have workable (if not stellar) interop
  331. # [12:26] <Hixie> doesn't define error handling, but nobody did in the 90s
  332. # [12:26] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh well maybe that's what's working for me. I didn't try without the software because I assumed it would fail
  333. # [12:26] <aja> hsivonen: latest tryserver builds still for html5 parser?
  334. # [12:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: iCal interoperates with Nokia's S60 calendar app and partially interoperates with Ericsson's T series calendaring app
  335. # [12:27] <hsivonen> aja: nope
  336. # [12:27] <hsivonen> aja: the latest are for the HTML5 namespace correctness patch
  337. # [12:28] <aja> hsivonen: the one in your blog entry crashed horribly on win/xp.....linux was fine, though
  338. # [12:28] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-190-109.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  339. # [12:28] <hsivonen> I should probably pull the old links from the blog entries...
  340. # [12:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: when you say "RDF quad", do you mean lang/datatype as the fourth item in the tuple?
  341. # [12:35] <Hixie> no, i mean provenance
  342. # [12:36] <Hixie> the language and datatype annotations are considered part of the object literal
  343. # [12:36] <hsivonen> ok
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  346. # [12:43] <hsivonen> what's happening with Origin in the IETF?
  347. # [12:47] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-18adc5edddf8b7b2)
  348. # [12:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you addressed all the recent hgroup feedback in the spec? that is, is the outline algorithm stable now?
  349. # [12:49] <Hixie> i have at least 16 messages on the topic that i haven't dealt with yet
  350. # [12:49] <hsivonen> ok
  351. # [12:50] <Hixie> btw if the absolute URL algorithm URIfies, that's a bug
  352. # [12:50] <Hixie> are you sure it does?
  353. # [12:51] <hsivonen> I'm not quite sure, but I read it twice and I think it does
  354. # [12:51] <Hixie> sounds like a bug
  355. # [12:51] * hsivonen goes read it the third time
  356. # [12:51] <Hixie> it might un-INDA and leave the path as IRI
  357. # [12:51] <Hixie> (which would also be a bug)
  358. # [12:51] <Hixie> it should ToUnicode() imho
  359. # [12:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: should script-inserted xml:base be considered in HTML documents?
  360. # [12:53] <hsivonen> doh.
  361. # [12:53] <hsivonen> there's a note that says yes
  362. # [12:53] <hsivonen> there's a bug in Gecko, then
  363. # [12:53] <Hixie> spec says yes
  364. # [12:53] <Hixie> the spec goes to some lengths to make base URI changes not be expensive
  365. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Gecko checks document HTMLness and returns early
  366. # [12:54] <Hixie> if you look at the source, there are comments in a bunch of places about implications certain rules have wrt base URI changes
  367. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems to me that steps 6. and 7.1. modify the URL in the algorithm for resolving
  368. # [12:55] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@dyn121.roaming.few.vu.nl)
  369. # [12:55] <hsivonen> 8., too
  370. # [12:56] <hsivonen> argh. vCard-RDF uses upper-case local names for properties
  371. # [12:56] <hsivonen> worse, it also used mixed case
  372. # [13:00] * riven`` is now known as riven
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  375. # [13:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: send mail to the list (and connoly@w3.org), i'm pretty sure we want the absolute url to be an IRI, off-hand. Not sure what the implications are though.
  376. # [13:15] <jgraham> Hixie: I might be missing something trivial but the "resolve a url" algorithm takes the url to be resolved + either an absolute url or an element
  377. # [13:15] <jgraham> But the definiton of "absolute url" just says "if the url resoves onto itself"
  378. # [13:15] <jgraham> which doesn't specify what you are resolving it against
  379. # [13:16] <jgraham> (those bits in quotation marks are not actual quotes)
  380. # [13:16] <Hixie> it should probably say explicitly that it means "if it resolves onto itself for any input base url" or some such
  381. # [13:16] <Hixie> again, danc is the guy to talk to here
  382. # [13:17] <Hixie> he's editing that bit
  383. # [13:17] <jgraham> OK
  384. # [13:17] <Hixie> ok bed time now
  385. # [13:17] <Hixie> nn
  386. # [13:17] <jgraham> goodnight
  387. # [13:17] * Philip` wonders if the question about whether 'absolute URL' is a datatype or is a property of a string has been raised or resolved yet
  388. # [13:18] * jgraham has been wondering something similar
  389. # [13:18] * Philip` is currently too lazy to raise it
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  401. # [14:08] <Philip`> Hmm, the images on the Last Week blog don't work too well for me
  402. # [14:09] <Philip`> since they say "You are not able to access this service because Content Control is in place. If you're 18 years or over, you can remove Content Control by contacting your mobile service provider's customer support team."
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  404. # [14:14] <virtuelv> Philip`: are you saying that your mobile ISP forces a porn filter on you?
  405. # [14:14] <virtuelv> that sounds australian
  406. # [14:29] <Philip`> virtuelv: Seems like it
  407. # [14:30] <Philip`> though it's not really "forces" if I could ask them to remove it
  408. # [14:30] <Philip`> but it sounds like they make it awkward to remove
  409. # [14:30] <Philip`> and I don't care that much about seeing Mr Last Week's images
  410. # [14:31] <jgraham> Philip`: You are not missing much. Indeed it is like the opposite of missing much
  411. # [14:33] <virtuelv> Philip`: I concur with jgraham's conclusion
  412. # [14:33] <virtuelv> let's just say that he goatse'd the validator icon for the purpose of annoying mpilgrim
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  449. # [17:12] <Wolfman2000> ...umm...sort of a silly question here...is there any reason why <table> tags no longer have the summary attribute?
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  461. # [18:12] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: It's because of the argument that <table summary> is often used badly, and rarely used well, and is replaceable by alternatives (like <legend> or <p>) that are accessible to users of graphical browsers too
  462. # [18:13] <Wolfman2000> Philip`: ...and what of those that use the handicapped browsers?
  463. # [18:13] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: They can access content in <legend> and <p> too
  464. # [18:13] <Wolfman2000> True. Still...don't tables use <caption>?
  465. # [18:13] <Philip`> Um
  466. # [18:13] <Philip`> I might mean <caption>, not <legend>
  467. # [18:16] <webben> Wolfman2000: i.e. the contention is that an explanation of how a complex table is organized is useful to everybody.
  468. # [18:17] <Philip`> The argument also involves the idea that the better way to improve accessibility is by making it as simple and as automatic as possible, instead of by adding complexity through accessibility-specific hooks for non-graphical browsers
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  470. # [18:18] <webben> Wolfman2000: It's notable that using ARIA you could point at the p with aria-describedby.
  471. # [18:18] <Philip`> (because, on average, people use those hooks in incorrect ways (e.g. <img longdesc="some text instead of a URL">) or useless ways (e.g. <table summary="Layout table with 3 columns and 2 rows">), and either harming the user experience or just wasting their own time)
  472. # [18:19] <Wolfman2000> ...that reminds me Philip`. The new way for alt text on images is supposed to be <img>Alt Text</img>, right?
  473. # [18:19] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: No
  474. # [18:19] <webben> Wolfman2000: Still alt=
  475. # [18:19] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: <img> is still an empty element
  476. # [18:20] <Philip`> (except in XHTML2, I guess)
  477. # [18:20] <Wolfman2000> ...must be thinking of XHTML2
  478. # [18:20] <webben> yep
  479. # [18:21] <Philip`> HTML parsers won't understand <img>...</img>, and can't be changed to understand it without breaking existing pages
  480. # [18:22] * Philip` notes that some people argue that the benefits of <table summary> are high and the costs are low and therefore it's worth keeping it in HTML5
  481. # [18:25] <Philip`> (Also some people seem to focus on the ability to make a page accessible, rather than on the likelihood of a random page written by an average person being made slightly more accessible)
  482. # [18:25] <Wolfman2000> I admit I'm more on the "accessible" side
  483. # [18:26] <Philip`> Nobody is on the anti-accessible side :-)
  484. # [18:29] <Wolfman2000> Philip`: at times I question that.
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  499. # [19:29] * gsnedders is wondering how to sanely mark up drama
  500. # [19:32] <Philip`> Is this like Shakespearean drama or emo drama?
  501. # [19:32] <gsnedders> Shakespearean
  502. # [19:33] <gsnedders> Philo: "And is become the bellows and the fan/To cool a gypsy's lust." (I.1.9–10)
  503. # [19:33] <gsnedders> Problem: marking that up sanely, and getting sane presentation of that.
  504. # [19:33] <gsnedders> However, my exam is on Friday so I don't really have time to care.
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  506. # [19:39] <Philip`> Hmm, Firefox 2 moves <link> and <meta> into <head>; Firefox 3 only moves <meta>
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  512. # [19:56] <gsnedders> For some reason my spell-checker doesn't know these Shakespearean names.
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  537. # [22:20] * jgraham discovers he has accidnetially caused a very odd spec discussion on a mailing list he wasn't aware of
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  540. # [22:27] * Philip` demands details
  541. # [22:27] <Hixie> jgraham: uri?
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  545. # [22:35] <jgraham> Philip`: It turns out that there is a es5-discuss mailing list in addition to the es-discuss mailing list I knew about
  546. # [22:36] <jgraham> After reorting a possible compatibility issue on es-discuss a thread started on es5-discuss which ends with Mark Miller and Douglas Crockford suggesting removing string indexing from ecmascript 5
  547. # [22:37] <jgraham> As an alternative to introducing a single compatibiliy-preserving type check
  548. # [22:37] <Philip`> They should go the whole hog and remove strings entirely
  549. # [22:37] <inimino> there is or has been in the past es-discuss, es3x-discuss, es4-discuss, and es5-discuss
  550. # [22:38] <inimino> (at least)
  551. # [22:38] <jgraham> inimino: And people complain about whatwg vs public-html
  552. # [22:38] <jgraham> At least those two have different participati
  553. # [22:38] <jgraham> on requirements
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  555. # [22:40] <jgraham> Hixie: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es5-discuss/2009-May/002490.html
  556. # [22:41] <Hixie> thx
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  564. # [23:11] * jgraham wonders if wikipedia is supposed to be used as software api documentation
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  578. # Session Close: Thu May 14 00:00:00 2009

The end :)