/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 19 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:23] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#degrade-gracefully s/irrelevant/hidden/
  6. # [00:28] <annevk5> it's not like someone is actually maintaining that document
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  10. # [01:01] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/7B28DCC4-BFAB-4BC3-9C96-7B37BF196349@gbiv.com
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  15. # [01:11] <annevk5> I'm not quite sure I follow the logic in that e-mail. A draft cannot change because of lack of implementations because it did not change as a result of receiving comments?
  16. # [01:14] <zcorpan> annevk5: the email says there were implementations
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  18. # [01:19] <othermaciej_> annevk5: the indirection isn't quite the same
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  20. # [01:19] <othermaciej> in a typical use of namespaces, you see "foo:bar", but that really means the ordered pair {http://something.foo.com/FooML, bar}
  21. # [01:19] <othermaciej> and the foo has no meaning
  22. # [01:19] <annevk5> The more I read that e-mail the less I get it. Oh well.
  23. # [01:20] <othermaciej> but binding CSS to an element with class="foo", there is no "more real" meaning than foo, and you won't be misled by looking for literal foo
  24. # [01:20] <othermaciej> for example, if you have a rule foo { color: green; } it's an unlikely mistake to try to find all green text by looking for everything with class foo in any document
  25. # [01:22] <annevk5> I agree that the CSS comparison does not quite work.
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  34. # [01:39] <othermaciej> I think the difference is in CSS, you have an indirection to binding style, whereas XML namespaces introduce indirection to binding meaning
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  49. # [02:31] <annevk5> http://gawker.com/5258524/ o_O
  50. # [02:34] <Hixie> i wonder why some of the classificatiosn are censored
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  62. # [03:21] <annevk5> fwiw, application/microdata+json will probably not fly with the IETF
  63. # [03:22] <annevk5> though I could be mistaken I think s/+/-/ will be easier
  64. # [03:22] <Hixie> i'm just trying to be consistent with +xml
  65. # [03:22] <Hixie> i'm happy to change it to whatever makes them happy
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  67. # [03:38] <annevk5> should subject="" be allowed to allow explicit assocation with the top-level microdata items?
  68. # [03:38] <annevk5> (it already works that way in user agents)
  69. # [03:38] <Hixie> say what?
  70. # [03:39] <annevk5> e.g. <span item> <span subject itemprop=name>X</span> </span>
  71. # [03:40] <Hixie> subject="" prevents the element from ever having a corresponding item
  72. # [03:40] <Hixie> (subject="" literally empty, i mean)
  73. # [03:42] <annevk5> "Otherwise, there is no corresponding item." ... "The list of elements that create items but do not themselves have a corresponding item forms the list of top-level microdata items."
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  75. # [03:43] <annevk5> (what I was trying to point out was that subject="" is currently disallowed)
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  130. # [08:29] <hsivonen> roc: the reftest failures don't suggest any lack of clue--just lack of cross-browser testing
  131. # [08:29] <hsivonen> roc: that is, test is for behavior x but also depends on behavior y where y varies among Gecko and IE or Gecko and WebKit
  132. # [08:30] <hsivonen> where behavior y is obscure and counter-intuitive
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  140. # [08:55] <Hixie> annevk5: oh, i see what you're saying
  141. # [08:56] <Hixie> annevk5: i don't really think we should allow that, in fact it's probably better just to call out empty subject="" as an error
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  183. # [12:04] <hsivonen> is there a way to test the precedence of the MS-maintained IE8 mode blacklist without being able to serve arbitrary content at any of the blacklisted domain?
  184. # [12:05] <hsivonen> that is, is there a way to edit the blacklist locally?
  185. # [12:05] <hsivonen> (an easy way that is)
  186. # [12:06] <hsivonen> I wonder if evaluating a bookmarklet when a given site has loaded inherits its blacklist properties
  187. # [12:06] <othermaciej> I bet it would
  188. # [12:07] <othermaciej> particularly if you use innerHTML to inject content into the site
  189. # [12:07] <hsivonen> othermaciej: innerHTML is no good, because the meta thingy works only if the parser sees it before a script has executed on the page
  190. # [12:08] <othermaciej> document.write perhaps?
  191. # [12:08] <hsivonen> document.write might work
  192. # [12:08] <othermaciej> or inject an iframe
  193. # [12:08] <othermaciej> supposedly subframes inherit the blacklist state of the top level document
  194. # [12:08] <hsivonen> kurafire claims that frames inherit the IE8/EmulateIE7 setting from parent
  195. # [12:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: Does it need to be a test that wworks online? Can't you just use /etc/hosts to point the domain at a site of your choice?
  196. # [12:09] <jgraham> Or does the balcklist not work like that?
  197. # [12:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: good point
  198. # [12:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
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  200. # [12:13] <Philip`> You could modify the blacklist file in a hex editor
  201. # [12:13] <Philip`> (Probably won't work, though)
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  204. # [12:19] <hsivonen> I'm appalled at the shady sites that doing a live search for windows hosts file turns up in IE8
  205. # [12:19] <hsivonen> I wouldn't get junk like that searching for Linux or Mac things
  206. # [12:20] <Philip`> Hmm, the recent update to the IE8 blacklist seems to have changed very little
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  208. # [12:20] <Philip`> Removed: ca.gov daft.ie nexopia.com onet.pl picnik.com pricegrabber.com rightmove.co.uk yandex.ru
  209. # [12:20] <Philip`> Added: sat.gob.mx
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  211. # [12:21] <hsivonen> google search is much more useful
  212. # [12:21] <Philip`> (Those are the changes from a couple of weeks ago, vs the initial release)
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  214. # [12:29] <hsivonen> OK. I had the MS blacklist in the wrong place in my flowchart
  215. # [12:30] <hsivonen> umm. no, I didn't
  216. # [12:30] <hsivonen> hmm. either I have tested wrong, kurafire has tested wrong, or I have misunderstood what he said
  217. # [12:31] <Philip`> Or it's non-deterministic
  218. # [12:31] <jgraham> Or some combination of the above
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  220. # [12:38] <hsivonen> whee! IE=9.9 and IE=99 are indeed different
  221. # [12:40] * Joins: deefour (n=deefour@ool-4576530d.dyn.optonline.net)
  222. # [12:41] <hsivonen> oops. my test script is wrong for 9.9
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  224. # [12:42] <hsivonen> 9.9 and 99 are indeed the same
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  238. # [13:35] <hsivonen> it turns out that the IE8 mode sniffing is even more complex than I previously thought
  239. # [13:35] <hsivonen> it takes into account the compatibility modeness of the frame parent
  240. # [13:36] <hsivonen> the parent can be in IE5 mode and the parent still remembers how it got to the IE5 mode
  241. # [13:36] <Rik|work> hsivonen: http://farukat.es/journal/2009/05/245-ie8-and-the-x-ua-compatible-situation
  242. # [13:36] <hsivonen> Rik|work: yes, that's what inspired me to test
  243. # [13:37] <hsivonen> Rik|work: my testing shows that X-UA-Compatible still allows you to override the mode from frame parent
  244. # [13:37] <hsivonen> for iframes at least
  245. # [13:38] <Rik|work> i work in a company that got in the compatibility list, we never received the mail to inform us
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  252. # [14:04] <hsivonen> whew. I've done my share of community service today and have revised http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ and linked flowcharts
  253. # [14:04] <hsivonen> (several times until I got them right. I think)
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  255. # [14:10] <Philip`> That is a little bit crazy
  256. # [14:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: what's crazy? revising or IE's behavior?
  257. # [14:12] <hsivonen> that's two hours of my life I'll never get back
  258. # [14:13] <Philip`> IE's behaviour
  259. # [14:13] <Philip`> and hence the flowcharts
  260. # [14:13] <Philip`> Two hours isn't much when you consider how much time you waste sleeping :-)
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  263. # [14:23] <annevk5> sleeping is not actually wasting time though
  264. # [14:24] <jgraham> Indeed sleeping can often be more enjoyable than the rest of the day was :)
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  276. # [14:40] * hsivonen found a reftest that actually tests Gecko-specific weirdness: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/document/reftests/bug448564-2_malformed.html
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  280. # [14:57] <annevk5> seems that http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2009/05/19/opera-mama-a-sneak-peek-at-headings-images-and-summary confirms that summary="" indeed sucks on the Web
  281. # [15:00] <annevk5> https://twitter.com/robburns1/status/1809470040 "the problem is that the Microsoft/Opera cartel seeks to use HTML5 & WhatWG to undermine the web regardless of W3C endorsement"
  282. # [15:01] <annevk5> I guess that goes nicely with the vast Apple/Google conspiracy (they even have shared board members under investigation!!)
  283. # [15:03] <Philip`> I didn't think Microsoft and Opera were getting along well enough to join a cartel with each other, what with the lawsuits and suchlike
  284. # [15:03] <Dashiva> It's a typo, he meant Opera/Google
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  286. # [15:04] <Philip`> Isn't Mozilla in on this?
  287. # [15:04] * Joins: fear\phage (n=fearphag@cogjam.com)
  288. # [15:04] <Dashiva> Google owns Mozilla, duh
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  291. # [15:06] <Philip`> I think Google should buy Opera
  292. # [15:06] <Philip`> just to complete the set
  293. # [15:06] <Philip`> Well, not complete, but make more complete than it would otherwise be
  294. # [15:06] <Philip`> It'd be great if they were paying for development of three competing browsers
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  298. # [15:15] <annevk5> whoa, Google and Safari get the encoding right for http://thebjoernhoehrmannproject.org/ -- nice
  299. # [15:21] <Philip`> Why wouldn't they get it right?
  300. # [15:22] <roc> if there's a conspiracy, I don't want to be left out
  301. # [15:24] <Philip`> /invite roc #whatwg-secret-treehouse
  302. # [15:25] <Philip`> Whoops
  303. # [15:25] <annevk5> Philip`, they used the text/html algorithm
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  330. # [17:41] <Philip`> http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/05/the-assertions-in-html-5.html
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  332. # [17:47] <annevk5> Seems he somewhat misunderstood how things came to be :)
  333. # [17:49] <Philip`> I'm not sure that what he says is wrong
  334. # [17:50] <Philip`> because the constraints in H:TML are largely based on RELAX NG and (maybe?) Schematron implementations
  335. # [17:50] <Philip`> which is what he seems to say
  336. # [17:51] <annevk5> Not really: "(I don't know whether the designers of HTML limited themselves to Schematron assertions or to the subset in drafts of XSD 1.1.)"
  337. # [17:52] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  338. # [17:52] <jgraham> Philip`: But by basing his analysis on those parts of H:TML that have been extracted from schema in validator.nu, he implicitly misses anything that could not be written as a schema constraint
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  340. # [17:53] <jgraham> (for example the constraint on table cells)
  341. # [17:54] <Philip`> annevk5: Oh, I missed that bit
  342. # [17:54] <jgraham> I guess it is hard to say his conclusions are wrong since the article just ends with no conclusions
  343. # [17:55] <Philip`> jgraham: Seems like a useul thing to point out in a comment :-)
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  359. # [18:57] <gsnedders> What does (a,b)|c mean? the (a.b) is the greatest common divisor, but what about the |?
  360. # [18:59] <gsnedders> divisibility.
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  369. # [19:10] <annevk5> Hmm, for cases such as http://www.w3.org/mid/65D2E21C-44E4-4E0B-B7D3-C635A8854A7D@apple.com it seems better to go with HTML5 directly
  370. # [19:11] <annevk5> A lot less markup, far easier for authors, and since neither solution has much adoption yet it doesn't really matter it seems.
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  386. # [19:45] * gsnedders should just give up all hope of ever managing to do any sort of maths related subject, seeming he can't do maths
  387. # [19:45] <gsnedders> Oh well, I guess Ill do English
  388. # [19:47] <Philip`> Maths is just like English, but with numbers
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  390. # [19:50] <inimino> and with fewer right answers
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  394. # [19:56] <jgraham> I guess maths actually has more right answers since there must be a countably infinite number of possible english essays but one could consruct a maths question with a uncountably infinite number of right answers
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  396. # [19:57] <inimino> fewer right answers as a percentage of answers that are likely to be given, to questions that are likely to be asked
  397. # [19:58] <inimino> see, this is like English, where you have to interpret ;-)
  398. # [20:00] <jgraham> I'm not really sure how one takes percentages of infinite quantities
  399. # [20:01] <inimino> both the set of questions likely to be asked and answers likely to be given are finite sets
  400. # [20:02] <inimino> (though I guess "Lebesgue measure" might also be a right answer to that question)
  401. # [20:02] <jgraham> I have mo idea how you determined that. It seems that there are an infinite number of possible maths questions at least
  402. # [20:03] <jgraham> I guess for english questions there is a limit imposed by length
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  405. # [20:03] <inimino> but surely not all of them are infinetely likely to be asked
  406. # [20:03] <inimino> erm
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  408. # [20:03] <inimino> s/infinetely/equally/
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  411. # [20:04] <inimino> for any expressible question or answer in maths there is just as hard a limit on length
  412. # [20:05] <jgraham> That seems like a more reasonable objection
  413. # [20:06] <inimino> an implication is that answers or questions that can't be expressed in the expected lifetime of the universe are somewhat less likely to be given or asked
  414. # [20:08] <jgraham> I wonder if one can still represent an infinite number of mathematical problems using some notation that allows the expression of an infinite number of possiblities in finite space
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  417. # [20:08] <jgraham> I'm not quite sure that would work though
  418. # [20:09] <inimino> sounds hard
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  429. # [20:27] * gavin____ is now known as gavin_
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  437. # [21:02] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009May/0056.html
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  446. # [21:42] * fear\phage is now known as fearphage
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  470. # [23:13] <gsnedders> hmm… I don't get what PCRE is doig…
  471. # [23:13] <gsnedders> *doing
  472. # [23:14] <gsnedders> /\x{D800}/u never matches
  473. # [23:14] <gsnedders> http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=47526
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  480. # [23:25] <Hixie> these conspiracy theories are very confusing
  481. # [23:25] <Hixie> who am i supposed to be getting my bribe from this month again?
  482. # [23:25] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  483. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Hmm, html5lib has kinda died since the end of March
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  490. # [23:51] <gsnedders> hmm, PHP 5.3-RC3-dev takes 0.58s less than 5.2.9 to tokenize the spec
  491. # [23:51] <gsnedders> (taking it down to 6.37s)
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  499. # Session Close: Wed May 20 00:00:00 2009

The end :)