/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 25 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:10] * gsnedders pulls out his battered second hand copy of the SGML Handbook
  4. # [00:12] <Philip`> Hmm, I prefer my books to be covered with breadcrumbs
  5. # [00:13] <gsnedders> I think not
  6. # [00:14] <gsnedders> No, it does
  7. # [00:14] <gsnedders> Uppercase letters (A-Z, numbers 65–90) map to their lowercase equivalents (a–z, numbers 97–122).
  8. # [00:15] <gsnedders> You have to look in about five different places to find that, but it seems well enough defined.
  9. # [00:15] <Philip`> Ah, thanks
  10. # [00:18] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-76-173-121-31.socal.res.rr.com)
  11. # [00:19] <gsnedders> Hmm, I have an unkillable Terminal
  12. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Like, running kill -KILL against it has no effect
  13. # [00:23] <Philip`> That's easy to fix - reboot
  14. # [00:23] <gsnedders> That means terminating everything else, though
  15. # [00:24] <Dashiva> How do you know it's unkillable? E.g. can you still use it?
  16. # [00:24] <gsnedders> Dashiva: No
  17. # [00:24] <gsnedders> Oh well, reboot it is.
  18. # [00:25] <Philip`> Can't you just ignore it?
  19. # [00:25] <gsnedders> I can't open stuff now either. WTF?
  20. # [00:25] <gsnedders> brb
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  24. # [00:32] <gsnedders> wee… sanity returns!
  25. # [00:34] <Dashiva> You might want to question the sanity of your computer if a stubborn terminal can prevent programs from opening
  26. # [00:35] <gsnedders> It's my computer, so of course it fails to meet the definition of sane.
  27. # [00:40] * Philip` is reminded of the fun times when his gamin server dies, and so any program that tries to connect to it on startup hangs, and eventually when he realises the problem and restarts the daemon suddenly dozens of copies of Krusader and KPDF spring into existence as they get unblocked
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  80. # [07:08] <takkaria> hmm
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  82. # [07:34] <othermaciej> I don't know why I keep replying to Larry
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  112. # [11:38] <hsivonen> annevk4: why doesn't CORS allow multiple enumerated allowed origins?
  113. # [11:39] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  114. # [11:39] <hsivonen> annevk4: being able to specify only one foreign origin in Access-Control-Allow-Origin is inconvenient if you want to serve fonts for a couple of origin but don't want to enable random bandwidth leeches
  115. # [11:41] <hsivonen> too late to change it now, of course
  116. # [11:44] <hsivonen> http://realtech.burningbird.net/web/page-markups/loose-set-notes-rdfa-microdata-and-html5#comment-1494
  117. # [11:51] <Hixie> does chaals think that consensus means unanimity?
  118. # [11:56] <Philip`> "To me, consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects."
  119. # [12:01] <jgraham> You know things are bad when Margret Thatcher quotes seem apropos
  120. # [12:03] <webben> Hixie: Possibly. I don't think http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0299.html clearly implies that though.
  121. # [12:03] <webben> (if that's what you're thinking of)
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  124. # [12:09] <annevk42> hsivonen, because we didn't want to introduce complicated features
  125. # [12:09] <annevk42> hsivonen, you can just as well do it conditionally
  126. # [12:16] <Dashiva> because, even though testable, in practice
  127. # [12:16] <Dashiva> the implementation conformance requirement is unnecessary
  128. # [12:16] <Dashiva> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0307.html
  129. # [12:16] <Dashiva> Is this really still an issue... gah
  130. # [12:19] * webben finds it odd that vagueness is promoted as a good way to do "extensibility".
  131. # [12:19] <annevk42> I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that our charter allows for non-consensus decisions
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  133. # [12:20] <webben> annevk42: I wonder which sense of "consensus" the charter is using.
  134. # [12:21] <webben> also does the charter basically mean that failing consensus, and after recording opinions, it's the chair's decision?
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  136. # [12:21] <webben> oh i see the link explains
  137. # [12:22] <annevk42> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter#decisions
  138. # [12:22] <annevk42> It actually also supports the editing model Hixie has been using. I.e. editor puts forward a proposal which is then refined by group discussion and gets killed or more refined if there is not sufficient support.
  139. # [12:23] <webben> hmm... http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies#Votes doesn't seem to say what happens if there is a hung vote.
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  141. # [12:27] <hsivonen> annevk42: I don't know how to do it conditionally with Apache and doing it conditionally doesn't mix well with long-term caching of fonts
  142. # [12:28] <othermaciej> his http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0323.html definitely sounds like Chaals thinks consensus == unanimity
  143. # [12:31] <webben> Yep.
  144. # [12:32] <Dashiva> It does sound like it, but based on what chaals has said before I think he just means that he should put a really good effort in to satisfy everyone first
  145. # [12:32] <Dashiva> *that we should
  146. # [12:33] <webben> W3C could probably use a page like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_is_consensus%3F
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  148. # [12:36] <annevk42> hsivonen, the cache would be per-origin
  149. # [12:37] <annevk42> hsivonen, you'd need to specify Vary: Origin
  150. # [12:38] <othermaciej> I hate citing the Process document to people
  151. # [12:38] <hsivonen> annevk42: seems more complex than one line in Apache config :-(
  152. # [12:39] <hsivonen> well, waiting for mod_cors, I guess
  153. # [12:40] <hsivonen> I suppose this could already be done with variables on conditional mod_headers directives
  154. # [12:40] <othermaciej> Dashiva: actually, now that I read his email closer it sounds like he's blurring the distinction between W3C-style consensus and unanimity
  155. # [12:40] <hsivonen> but I've never studied how those work
  156. # [12:41] <annevk42> I think it can be done with the set environment variable stuff
  157. # [12:41] <annevk42> Probably with similar lines rubys used for the IE8 crap that now leaked on the Web
  158. # [12:41] <annevk42> Why not make the fonts available for everyone?
  159. # [12:41] <hsivonen> annevk42: well, that particular case suggests that Apache env vars aren't really copy-paste-friendly material
  160. # [12:42] <hsivonen> annevk42: I was going to blog on how to optimize @font-face bandwidth without subsetting fonts
  161. # [12:42] <hsivonen> and not letting random sites leech seems like a natural part of it
  162. # [12:42] <annevk42> I believe only Gecko enforces the same-origin restriction on them by the way
  163. # [12:43] <hsivonen> annevk42: I expect Firefox 3.5 to gain enough market share to deter leeches
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  165. # [12:44] * Philip` would like to see how much a 500KB font can be optimised without subsetting :-)
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  167. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: a 1 MB font can be optimized quite a bit
  168. # [12:45] <annevk42> lol, did othermaciej, hsivonen, and I just wrote essentially the same email?
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  170. # [12:46] <Philip`> annevk42: You are all manifestations of the hivemind
  171. # [12:47] <othermaciej> similar, not quite identical
  172. # [12:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: How about 10MB fonts, then? :-)
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  174. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: dunno. The largest fonts I use are 1.5 MB: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/fonts/libertine/4.4.1/
  175. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: small fonts compress nicely, too: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/fonts/liberation/1.04.93.devel/
  176. # [12:53] <Philip`> Hmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochi_font (9MB for one .ttf) seems to be the largest font I have, excluding the ones I stole from Windows and OS X
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  189. # [13:29] <gsnedders> http://w3.org/mid/4A1A4AF8.1030001@it.aoyama.ac.jp — never miss monthly deadlines again!
  190. # [13:31] <annevk42> http://fberriman.com/2009/05/24/html5-microdata-over-cooked/
  191. # [13:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: added info on how to check out trunk to http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/
  192. # [13:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks
  193. # [13:32] <annevk42> hsivonen, did you see http://schepers.cc/?p=117 ?
  194. # [13:32] <hsivonen> annevk42: yes. my comment is in the moderation queue.
  195. # [13:32] <hsivonen> annevk42: I think it's night time on shepazu's time zone
  196. # [13:32] <annevk42> myakura's twitter stream is nice
  197. # [13:33] * Joins: hamaji (n=i@w133104.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  198. # [13:33] <hsivonen> annevk42: http://pastebin.ca/1433802
  199. # [13:34] <annevk42> I just checked, even the 1999 Process document does not say objections need to be put *in* the document. They just need to be archived and referencable. http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Process-19991111/activities.html#WGArchiveMinorityViews
  200. # [13:36] * Quits: hamaji (n=i@w133104.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  201. # [13:37] <annevk42> Hmm, Doug doesn't point to your original objection
  202. # [13:38] <annevk42> oh, but searching for W3C Technology Stack gives it back as the second unindented result :)
  203. # [13:40] <hsivonen> also, http://www.google.com/search?q=Web+Technology+Stack and http://www.google.com/search?q=Browser+Technology+Stack
  204. # [13:41] <annevk42> "official doctrine of the WHATWG" :)
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  206. # [13:43] <hsivonen> I wasn't aware that the WHATWG had official doctrines
  207. # [13:43] <Philip`> Maybe we should set up a wiki page defining the official doctrines
  208. # [13:44] <hsivonen> should Hixie's IRC remarks be considered to be 'ex cathedra'?
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  211. # [13:46] <annevk42> I think Doug misunderstood that you didn't want to make a diagram for the Web but just one for browsers
  212. # [13:46] <jgraham> I thought Hixie was more like Christ himself. His IRC comments are like the sermon from the mount
  213. # [13:47] <annevk42> what is HID btw?
  214. # [13:47] <hsivonen> annevk42: perhaps I should have revised the URL to match the title...
  215. # [13:47] <hsivonen> annevk42: but cool URIs don't change now
  216. # [13:47] <hsivonen> annevk42: Human Interface Devices
  217. # [13:48] <Philip`> jgraham: We need to work out these issues before Hixie dies, otherwise we won't know whether to wait for his resurrection or form a conclave to elect a new Hixie
  218. # [13:48] * Joins: hamaji (n=i@w133104.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  219. # [13:49] <Philip`> Of course it's more likely that Hixie is Brian
  220. # [13:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: Or we could just wait or his second coming.
  221. # [13:49] <gsnedders> *for
  222. # [13:50] <jgraham> Philip`: The whole resurrection thing is overrated anyway because he just disappears off again straight afterwards. So we probably need to go with the whole "elect Hixie's representative on earth" thing anyway
  223. # [13:51] <gsnedders> And then we'll end up reforming WHATWG so we no longer have a representative of Hixie on earth, and just follow Hixie himsel.
  224. # [13:51] <Philip`> I think I'm going to stick with the Hixie-as-Brian idea, because that's got much better songs
  225. # [13:52] <gsnedders> "He grew, grew, grew and grew, grew up to be/A man, a man called Hixie."
  226. # [13:53] <jgraham> "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy"
  227. # [13:53] <jgraham> Somehow that is even funnier in this context
  228. # [13:54] * gsnedders is listening to Brian Song by Monty Python from Monty Python Sings
  229. # [13:59] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  230. # [14:07] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p2085-ipbf3401hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  231. # [14:07] <othermaciej> Sam is really confusing me now
  232. # [14:07] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@114.166.101.85)
  233. # [14:13] <annevk42> othermaciej, I think in part it may have been differences between the various Process document versions
  234. # [14:14] <annevk42> othermaciej, just skimmed through the two and things have changed
  235. # [14:14] <othermaciej> that explains his public-html email
  236. # [14:14] <othermaciej> it does look like he was using a stale version
  237. # [14:15] <othermaciej> I'm confused by his www-archive email
  238. # [14:18] <annevk42> if you're interested in contradictions btw, search for "willful violation" throughout the HTML5 specification
  239. # [14:19] <hsivonen> is there some kind of simple script that opens a local HTTP "proxy" that responds with zero-length 200 or 404 to every request?
  240. # [14:20] <annevk42> "That may be because there's no way to register them. So claiming extensions aren't possible isn't helpful, when reality proves they are possible." -- is it just me or does this sound weird coming from Julian?
  241. # [14:21] <othermaciej> annevk42: I'm mainly interested in which ones Sam thinks are critical
  242. # [14:21] <othermaciej> but thanks for pointing that out
  243. # [14:22] <hsivonen> annevk42: what Julian says makes sense to me
  244. # [14:22] <othermaciej> sounds like the "url" willful violations make sense
  245. # [14:22] <othermaciej> hsivonen: it makes sense to me too, but I agree with annevk42 that it sounds unlike Julian's usual prescriptivist point of view
  246. # [14:24] <othermaciej> annevk42: it
  247. # [14:24] <othermaciej> annevk42: it's pretty enlightening to look at these
  248. # [14:25] <othermaciej> annevk42: would be an interesting exercise to catalogue and classify them if Sam's intent is really sincere
  249. # [14:25] <othermaciej> it sounds like many will be fixed by new or updated specs to refefence
  250. # [14:26] <othermaciej> there are surprisingly few
  251. # [14:28] <othermaciej> the only contradiction with a W3C specification is charmod
  252. # [14:28] <othermaciej> and it would be hard to disagree with that one
  253. # [14:29] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-66-131.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  255. # [14:37] * gsnedders wonders whether to commit a change to php html5lib which changes the tokenizer from multiple methods to one big switch statement
  256. # [14:38] <gsnedders> Takes the time to tokenize the spec down from 7.0s to 5.7s
  257. # [14:38] <Philip`> What reasons are there against committing it?
  258. # [14:38] <gsnedders> It's a bit more messy
  259. # [14:39] <Philip`> This is HTML, it's meant to be messy
  260. # [14:39] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  261. # [14:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: Will it make the code significantly harder to maintain?
  262. # [14:40] <Philip`> It's code that shouldn't need to be extended significantly in the future (since the spec isn't going to change much), so maintenance isn't the most critical issue
  263. # [14:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: I expect that depends on who you ask :)
  264. # [14:41] * ap|away is now known as ap
  265. # [14:41] <jgraham> Philip`: In practice the spec has changed a bit and I would expect some further changes as browsers implement this stuff
  266. # [14:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: Assume I am asking you
  267. # [14:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, it's only a small bit worse.
  268. # [14:43] * gsnedders pushes
  269. # [14:43] * Philip` falls
  270. # [14:43] <gsnedders> Wait, I should probably run the test suite :P
  271. # [14:44] <gsnedders> Oh, good. Nothing broke.
  272. # [14:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: BTW it seems like it would be a much more useful use of your time to make a treebuilder rather than work on endless refactorings of the tokenizer
  273. # [14:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: But it's 10 times quicker now!
  274. # [14:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes, but it's useless
  275. # [14:44] <Philip`> because nobody just wants tokens :-p
  276. # [14:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: The test suite does :P
  277. # [14:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: The test suite is not an end user
  278. # [14:45] <Philip`> The test suite doesn't like being anthropomorphised
  279. # [14:46] <hsivonen> meanwhile, I'm confused by the perf results I'm seeing with HTML5-enabled Gecko builds
  280. # [14:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: It's not until you have a treebuilder that people can do thinks like implement rdfa parsers with your code
  281. # [14:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: You could just work with tokens :P
  282. # [14:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, it's more fun working with something that actually runs/
  283. # [14:47] <Philip`> gsnedders: You can't just work with tokens unless you write your own treebuilder
  284. # [14:47] <Philip`> hsivonen: Confused because it's too fast or because it's too slow?
  285. # [14:48] <hsivonen> Philip`: too slow and suddenly *way* too slow
  286. # [14:48] <Philip`> Ah
  287. # [14:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: A regression or a new measurement?
  288. # [14:52] <hsivonen> the measurement is supposedly the same
  289. # [14:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: So a regression?
  290. # [15:02] <hsivonen> I suppose so. but I have no idea how my own changes could have caused it. I did merge in a lot of trunk code, though.
  291. # [15:04] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  292. # [15:04] <zcorpan> Hixie: heya
  293. # [15:05] <annevk42> not awake I think
  294. # [15:05] <zcorpan> hmm right
  295. # [15:11] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  296. # [15:16] <othermaciej> I don't think I can reply to Sam's latest email without further pissing him off
  297. # [15:19] <othermaciej> specifically http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009May/0067.html to be specific
  298. # [15:31] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  306. # [15:49] * jgraham is not sure wtf there is a discussion about the title
  307. # [15:52] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-171-214.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  308. # [15:53] <othermaciej> I kinda think it is because of the reason I suggested that made Sam so angry
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  311. # [16:07] <annevk42> othermaciej, oh, I just replied as well
  312. # [16:08] <annevk42> othermaciej, I thought you were gonna leave it
  313. # [16:15] <othermaciej> annevk42: I replied to only the technical portion
  314. # [16:15] <othermaciej> will decide whether to address the other part later
  315. # [16:17] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.46)
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  317. # [16:21] <zcorpan> alt text for http://hsivonen.iki.fi/web-stack/ is interesting
  318. # [16:23] <annevk42> http://twitter.com/uberChick/statuses/1909606174 -- I guess that's why we didn't do it
  319. # [16:24] <jgraham> zcorpan: In what way interesting?
  320. # [16:25] <zcorpan> jgraham: not the specified alt text but what is appropriate alt text, considering html5 and wcag etc
  321. # [16:26] <zcorpan> i.e. what would you use as alt
  322. # [16:27] <annevk42> given the processing model example in HTML5 I'd prolly just describe the diagram
  323. # [16:27] <annevk42> WCAG suggests the same; all text of the image should be in alt
  324. # [16:29] <Dashiva> Laura sure loves citing :)
  325. # [16:30] <jgraham> me? Well I guess if I was being good, I would go read the spec... Which would lead me to section 4.8.2.1.2 A phrase or paragraph with an alternative graphical representation: charts, diagrams, graphs, maps, illustrations. But I would quickly realise that was unreasonably hard so I would look at 4.8.2.1.9 A key part of the content, realise that was still too hard
  326. # [16:30] <jgraham> and so write something short like hsivonen did
  327. # [16:31] <annevk42> Dashiva, she cites a lot of discussion but then when she starts making statements she doesn't cite anything
  328. # [16:31] <annevk42> Dashiva, I personally don't find it useful
  329. # [16:31] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-156-65.perm.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  330. # [16:32] <Dashiva> annevk4: This is true
  331. # [16:32] <hsivonen> I initially started outlining the idea for the diagram as text and decided that it was easier to draw it when the bulleted list started ballooning
  332. # [16:35] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
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  334. # [16:52] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't know how much you care about correct stacking of your browser technology stack diagram, but shouldn't XHR be in some way on top of XML
  335. # [16:52] <othermaciej> ?
  336. # [16:53] <othermaciej> also I'm unsure why Events are on top of JavaScript; in general it seems unclear what layers JavaScript should be on top of or below
  337. # [16:53] <Philip`> And on JSON
  338. # [16:53] <Philip`> (XHR, that is)
  339. # [16:53] <Philip`> unless JSON is on XHR
  340. # [16:53] <othermaciej> XHR doesn't depend technologically on JSON
  341. # [16:53] <Philip`> or unless something else is on both JSON and XHR
  342. # [16:54] <othermaciej> the emerging native JSON APIs might be worth calling out
  343. # [16:54] <Philip`> Unicode doesn't depend technologically on HTTP / URL, either
  344. # [16:54] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it seems to me that XHR is forefost a JS API for HTTP and the shortcut XML parsing is a minor point
  345. # [16:54] <Philip`> so I presume that's not what the diagram is showing
  346. # [16:54] <othermaciej> fair enough but then maybe it should sit right on top of http
  347. # [16:54] <jgraham> othermaciej: My understanding is that "Events" means user-initiated events (although I guess it should still be on top of DOM)
  348. # [16:55] <hsivonen> othermaciej: mainly the issue is that laying out the boxes in 2 dimensions restricts what boxes can touch each other
  349. # [16:55] <othermaciej> on second thought I guess unicode interposes in the same way as for text, but unicode on top of http is not a dependency it's a pipeline
  350. # [16:55] <othermaciej> yeah
  351. # [16:55] <Dashiva> 3D canvas to the rescue
  352. # [16:55] <othermaciej> diagrams like this end up either unreadable or inaccurate or both
  353. # [16:55] <hsivonen> all the specs that are above Unicode really deal with byte layer too and have Unicode inside the parsing rules
  354. # [16:56] <othermaciej> the comparison to the W3C diagram is interesting
  355. # [16:57] <othermaciej> not sure if XPath is worth citing in your version
  356. # [16:58] * othermaciej is looking at WebCore directory names
  357. # [16:58] <Philip`> Dashiva: That wouldn't solve the fundamental problem, which is that the topology of finite-dimensional space imposes restrictions on diagrams that are based on adjacencies between non-intersecting shapes
  358. # [16:58] * othermaciej flushes with embarassment and moves right on past wml/
  359. # [16:59] <Philip`> Seems much easier to solve it by just drawing a graph with potentially intersecting edges
  360. # [16:59] * Quits: BARTdG (n=BARTdG@86.90.129.5)
  361. # [16:59] <othermaciej> plugins are part of the browser technology stack but I guess don't have the same "open web" flavor
  362. # [17:00] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.46)
  363. # [17:00] <Dashiva> Philip`: But a static image of such a graph would also be pretty confusing. With canvas you could let the user navigate around it :)
  364. # [17:01] <hsivonen> I guess adding XPath would require putting Selectors there as a box as well
  365. # [17:02] <hsivonen> and yes, NPAPI would belong in the diagram. can't figure out where, though
  366. # [17:02] <Philip`> Dashiva: It wouldn't necessarily be pretty confusing - it'd probably be mostly a treeish structure like hsivonen's current diagram, but with a few extra edges in weird directions
  367. # [17:02] <hsivonen> Canvas 2D could be called out on ints own right, but it would have to be between JS and Visual Rendering
  368. # [17:02] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  369. # [17:02] <othermaciej> hsivonen: maybe you should use RDF and make the Browser Technology Graph
  370. # [17:03] <othermaciej> clearly a stack is not an adequate data structure for this use case
  371. # [17:03] <hsivonen> I guess a graph would show the intertwingularity better
  372. # [17:03] * Philip` would probably write .dot files rather than RDF
  373. # [17:03] <hsivonen> Word template?
  374. # [17:04] <jgraham> Philip`: You could write HTML5 microdata, autoconvert it to RDF then to .dot and finally to SVG, which you could in turn embed inside the original HTML document
  375. # [17:04] <othermaciej> I don't know what HID is
  376. # [17:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: graphviz
  377. # [17:05] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Human Interface Device
  378. # [17:05] <hsivonen> pointing device / text input was too long
  379. # [17:06] <annevk42> hsivonen, I hope someone will appeal to some higher court? (re twitter)
  380. # [17:07] <othermaciej> now I feel less embarassed that I don't know
  381. # [17:07] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  382. # [17:07] <othermaciej> the granularity of specifications is kind of arbitrary
  383. # [17:08] <othermaciej> which is unfortunate for a diagram like this
  384. # [17:08] <othermaciej> editing is a pretty big subsystem in WebKit but it has no spec to call its own
  385. # [17:09] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  386. # [17:09] <annevk42> mostly HTML5 I reckon
  387. # [17:10] <othermaciej> yeah although HTML5 is not nearly detailed enough about editing behavior to allow for interoperability I think
  388. # [17:10] <othermaciej> man the w3c version of the web technology stack has an impressive collection of acronyms I've never heard of
  389. # [17:10] <hsivonen> annevk42: I don't know how the case will proceed in the courts. there's a parallel request to an ombudsman who sits aside from the courts and the parliament
  390. # [17:18] <annevk42> a Parliamentary Ombudsman?
  391. # [17:18] <hsivonen> annevk42: yes
  392. # [17:18] <annevk42> apparently the concept differs a lot per country
  393. # [17:19] <annevk42> seems it would be annoying if that person agreed with the judge
  394. # [17:19] <hsivonen> the most basic problem is that Finland lacks a constitutional court and the parliament oversees the constitutionality of its own acts which is a joke
  395. # [17:23] <annevk42> so in theory the parliament has unlimited power?
  396. # [17:24] <othermaciej> the UK parliament has theoretically unlimited power too, so it's not unprecedented
  397. # [17:25] <hsivonen> annevk42: I think a couple of consecutive parliaments together have unlimited power (to the extent the EU doesn't sue)
  398. # [17:25] <othermaciej> courts will not even uphold a law that tries to restrict future acts of parliament
  399. # [17:25] <annevk42> othermaciej, according to Wikipedia that will soon stop as the UK will get a supreme court
  400. # [17:25] <annevk42> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_Kingdom
  401. # [17:28] <othermaciej> yeah it will have a Supreme Court but I don't think that will establish judicial review of acts of parliament, since there is no written constitution, just conventions
  402. # [17:29] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  403. # [17:30] * annevk42 finds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#2008_ranking
  404. # [17:31] <hsivonen> can an old version of CHUD block Mac OS X update?
  405. # [17:32] <hsivonen> I wonder what I should do when an OS X update fails to install
  406. # [17:35] <hsivonen> http://theory.uchicago.edu/~harvey/harveyomega/
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  410. # [17:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: Doesn't work very well in Opera :-(
  411. # [17:57] <Philip`> (The page reloads after pressing enter)
  412. # [17:57] * Philip` blames all the Opera people here
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  420. # [18:58] * mhausenblas is now known as out
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  425. # [19:17] <gsnedders> http://digg.com/tech_news/Tim_Berners_Lee_on_the_next_Web?t=25847831#c25848908 — hah! Too true!
  426. # [19:44] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
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  433. # [20:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: What was that graphing software you were saying I should use
  434. # [20:06] <Philip`> Excel?
  435. # [20:06] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  436. # [20:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: No
  437. # [20:09] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  438. # [20:10] <gsnedders> Veusz
  439. # [20:11] <gsnedders> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090220#l-561
  440. # [20:12] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  441. # [20:15] <gsnedders> I think something is wrong with the OS X binary.
  442. # [20:16] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  444. # [20:20] * Philip` wonders if Larry is underestimating the extent to which trivial details end up causing sites to break in some browsers
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  446. # [20:27] <Philip`> Hmm, I've even written code myself that tests if img.width != 0 and if so then it uses both img.width and img.height
  447. # [20:28] <Philip`> (though it does check img.complete first)
  448. # [20:28] <Philip`> (and just uses width==0 to test whether it completed successfully or unsuccessfully)
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  452. # [20:47] <annevk4> hmm @reply in twitter means the reply will not appear for the people following you?
  453. # [20:47] <annevk4> wtf
  454. # [20:47] <Dashiva> Well, sometimes
  455. # [20:48] <Dashiva> I haven't been able to figure out when it doesn't appear
  456. # [20:49] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  457. # [20:50] <annevk4> maybe only when you are not following one of them
  458. # [20:50] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-55785ea14a43b15a)
  459. # [20:50] <annevk4> that seems to be it
  460. # [20:50] <annevk4> I don't like it
  461. # [20:51] <Dashiva> Ah, that seems to fit my observations, yes
  462. # [20:51] <gavin_> people following you don't get @replies you send to people that they aren't themselves following
  463. # [20:52] <annevk4> sucks
  464. # [20:52] <gavin_> that's what the #fixreplies fiasco was about
  465. # [20:52] <gavin_> used to be a user pref to control whether you saw them
  466. # [20:54] <annevk4> I thought the whole idea was that if I followed someone I got to see what they do and what keeps them busy
  467. # [20:55] <annevk4> oh well
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  469. # [20:57] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  470. # [20:58] <gavin_> I guess the reasoning is that making it a user pref is costly (need to check all follower prefs for each tweet)
  471. # [20:58] <gavin_> and making it the default is sometimes confusing/undesired
  472. # [20:58] <gavin_> so it was just removed
  473. # [20:59] <Madness> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions hm, no icon or shortcut icon defined...
  474. # [21:00] <annevk4> that's in HTML5 itself
  475. # [21:01] <Madness> Meaning it's not an extension?
  476. # [21:01] <annevk4> I suppose
  477. # [21:01] <annevk4> maybe we should still list them there for completeness
  478. # [21:02] <Madness> Yes please, so silly heads like me won't get puzzled. :)
  479. # [21:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: wfm
  480. # [21:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/veusz.tiff
  481. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Version 1.2 works though
  482. # [21:20] <annevk4> Hixie, stylesheet should come after sidebar
  483. # [21:31] <gsnedders> OK, does anyone have suggestions for non-sucky non-buggy graphing software?
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  487. # [21:44] <hsivonen> I'm baffled by being accused of divisive rhetoric when the accusation talks about WHATWG doctrine and implies I assumed sinister motives when I didn't. Hmm. http://schepers.cc/?p=117
  488. # [21:44] <annevk42> Arguably the definition of "available" is somewhat flaky
  489. # [21:45] <annevk42> E.g. how can one know the image is valid if it is only partially downloaded. And if valid is a requirement for being available, how it can be available before being completely downloaded.
  490. # [21:45] <annevk42> (Apart from the fact that supported image type and valid image are indeed not defined.)
  491. # [21:49] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe you're just much more subtle in your use of divisive rhetoric, so that it can't be easily seen from individual quotes
  492. # [21:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh? my original observation was that the W3C's PR materials weren't being inclusive of HTML and XHR, which makes it seem like the W3C hasn't quite accepted what it invited
  493. # [21:53] <annevk42> Apparently they just haven't updated their marketing materials
  494. # [21:53] <hsivonen> clearly
  495. # [21:53] <Dashiva> I'm baffled that a single calf is being called a cow path
  496. # [21:53] <annevk42> It wasn't about CR or Rec; as Ivan points he made the diagram in 2004-5 and back then HTML5 and XHR didn't happen
  497. # [21:54] <hsivonen> annevk42: it has been updated since then, and the surrounding material has been updated since then
  498. # [21:54] <hsivonen> I don't assume that things were kept out deliberately, but it's PR material that isn't up-to-date
  499. # [21:54] <annevk42> But the diagram (other than removing one part) remained the same right?
  500. # [21:55] <hsivonen> annevk42: no
  501. # [21:55] <annevk42> oh ok
  502. # [21:55] <hsivonen> annevk42: XSL, RDFa and GRDDL have been added
  503. # [21:55] <annevk42> ok
  504. # [21:56] <annevk42> I tend to agree that calling you divisive for pointing out something you consider flawed is not very nice
  505. # [21:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: It may also be that you're not using divisive rhetoric at all, so I didn't mean to imply you were :-)
  506. # [21:58] <annevk42> by schepers' own logic WICD shouldn't be there btw
  507. # [21:58] <annevk42> and if CR does qualify I'm missing XBL2
  508. # [22:02] <hsivonen> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fschepers.cc%2F%3Fp%3D117
  509. # [22:05] <annevk4> fun, they applaud the post and we critique it; guess we're not making much process on that front then
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The end :)