/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:16] <Hixie> #$%^*@$^@
  13. # [00:17] * Hixie finally admits to himself that he needs to reverse engineer <marquee>
  14. # [00:17] <Hixie> i was really hoping to be able to define html5 without doing this
  15. # [00:19] <ezyang> What needs to be reverse engineered about it?
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  17. # [00:20] <Hixie> how does loop=4 work?
  18. # [00:20] <Hixie> if you change the behavior, does the looping restart?
  19. # [00:21] <ezyang> Aha
  20. # [00:21] <ezyang> That doesn't sound too difficult, albeit slightly time consuming
  21. # [00:23] <Hixie> it's not difficult, no :-)
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  24. # [00:33] <Hixie> great, all the browsers act weirdly and differently from each other
  25. # [00:33] <Dashiva> And oddly enough I suspect that's not an ironic "great", but actually a positive thing?
  26. # [00:34] <ezyang> Hixie: In cases like this, is documenting existing behavior or deciding on a standard the first priority?
  27. # [00:36] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  28. # [00:39] <Hixie> ezyang: what's the difference?
  29. # [00:39] <Hixie> Dashiva: it was ironic, though i guess it is actually good too, gives me more flexibility :-)
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  33. # [00:53] <jwalden> browsers don't actually create anything new, they just copy like mad all the time :-)
  34. # [00:53] <jwalden> so writing a browser standard is just more copying :-)
  35. # [00:57] <othermaciej> we were all kinda trying to reverse engineer IE's <marquee>
  36. # [00:57] <othermaciej> if you can reverse engineer more accurately then win
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  48. # [01:20] <gmiernicki> has anyone thought about updating <blink> ?
  49. # [01:20] <gmiernicki> i think that tag needs some work
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  53. # [01:29] <ezyang> I'm looking at an old implementation of tree building, and I see that it's divided into "phases". Was this old vocabulary that was removed from the spec later?
  54. # [01:30] <Hixie> yeah
  55. # [01:31] <ezyang> I wonder how harmless it is.
  56. # [01:31] <Hixie> the spec has changed quite a bit since then
  57. # [01:31] <Hixie> in ways that matter
  58. # [01:32] <ezyang> Ok.
  59. # [01:32] <annevk2> you want to review all the old code, but you can probably get away with reusing parts of it
  60. # [01:32] <ezyang> This probably explains why less than a fourth of the tests are passing :-)
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  63. # [01:38] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/masinter/statuses/1929353498 ?
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  66. # [01:41] <annevk2> someone has been sending off-topic emails or something?
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  68. # [01:42] * annevk2 wonders if a certain Dean E has been sending emails
  69. # [01:43] <annevk2> (certainly seemed like Shelley got one from him)
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  71. # [01:48] <Hixie> i sent him mail saying that calling the last 5 years of my technical life "not a technical specification" was personally offensive
  72. # [01:48] <Hixie> dunno about the other two!
  73. # [01:49] <Hixie> (he didn't seem to understand why i was offended, which is a little disconcerting, but oh well)
  74. # [01:53] <ezyang> "after after frameset" haha
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  76. # [01:53] <Hixie> yeah don't look too closely at the terminology in the html5 spec
  77. # [01:54] <Hixie> sometimes i backed myself into a corner and the results are embarassing :-)
  78. # [01:54] <Hixie> that's one example :-)
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  140. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> does the Khronos Group not provide public access to their WG/mailing-list discussions?
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  142. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to find an info page and/or mailing list for the‘Accelerated 3D on Web’group that was announced last month
  143. # [08:16] <othermaciej> I don't think they do
  144. # [08:16] <othermaciej> this is one reason I am puzzled that Mozilla chose it as the venue for Canvas 3D
  145. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> I guess going to Khronos makes sense if it's intended to be a spec for exposing OpenGL to javascript
  146. # [08:19] <othermaciej> but the hard part is the Web platform aspect (how to make the API safe without being slow)
  147. # [08:19] <othermaciej> not the 3D aspect
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  149. # [08:19] <othermaciej> and Khronos is poor on process openness afaik
  150. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> hmm
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  152. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> well, that's going to make things interesting
  153. # [08:24] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  154. # [08:27] <othermaciej> whatwg IRC gets results: http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2009/05/_then_they_call_you_names.html
  155. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> "How Much Does it Cost to Get Involved?" section of http://www.khronos.org/members/ says "Free for Developers"
  156. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> but that page doesn't define what a "developer" is
  157. # [08:28] <othermaciej> maybe you just have to sign up then
  158. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> "A "troll" is someone who uses the anonymity possible on the Internet to harass others -- it is not someone who takes named responsibility for asking reasonable questions."
  159. # [08:32] <annevk42> what does "public-yet-pragmatically-inaccessible" mean?
  160. # [08:33] <othermaciej> that means this is a smoke-filled room
  161. # [08:33] <othermaciej> even though it is open to the public and logged on the Web
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  163. # [08:33] <annevk42> I see
  164. # [08:35] <annevk42> wtf was has difficult question?
  165. # [08:35] <annevk42> s/has/his/
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  167. # [08:36] <othermaciej> he's just asking the hard question of why the Web platform should support things like video or animation when Flash already does it fine
  168. # [08:36] <othermaciej> aren't we just fragmenting the Web by providing a way to do those things without Flash?
  169. # [08:36] <othermaciej> and aren't we polluting the hypertext purity of HTML by trying to bend it to the purpose of Rich Internet Applications?
  170. # [08:36] <othermaciej> shouldn't Web apps written using the Open Web platform remain poor?
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  172. # [08:37] <othermaciej> why the class warfare? why would they want to be rich?
  173. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> heh
  174. # [08:37] <sayrer> there are some fair points there
  175. # [08:38] <othermaciej> sure, but
  176. # [08:38] <othermaciej> no matter what difficult questions he asks, the answer always seems to be the same: not to add functionality to HTML and to just use Flash instead
  177. # [08:39] <sayrer> well ok, but that bias is pretty obvious
  178. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> I wish he would just get back to pure unadultered trolling, instead of I-am-not-trolling
  179. # [08:40] <sayrer> for example, there are many Mozilla community members who don't see h264 video elements as a meaningful advance over flash movies
  180. # [08:40] <sayrer> but the interoperability story is worse, on balance
  181. # [08:40] <sayrer> although you do get on some devices where flash isn't present
  182. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> who cares about those device?
  183. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> devices
  184. # [08:41] <othermaciej> a surprising number of people care about devices such as the iPhone
  185. # [08:41] <othermaciej> I think the potential advance of <video> is twofold:
  186. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, I was being facetious
  187. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> I was channeling
  188. # [08:42] <sayrer> it's not a nice situation, morally. many handset makers are members of the mpeg consortium
  189. # [08:43] <othermaciej> (1) as to openness, I think <video> + H.264 is an improvement, because a patent-encumbered open standard is still an open standard; and there is the opportunity for expiration of certain key patents to help matters further
  190. # [08:43] <sayrer> open standards should be distributable by open source projects
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  192. # [08:43] <sayrer> h.264 fails that test
  193. # [08:45] <othermaciej> (2) I think one of the most interesting aspects is the technology story, that video can be freely mixed with your other content and doesn't have to be in a special multimedia box
  194. # [08:45] <sayrer> yes, that is a theoretical advantage
  195. # [08:45] <othermaciej> after all, much of programming today is about connecting things together, not raw capabilities
  196. # [08:45] <sayrer> but so far the interoperability is pretty bad
  197. # [08:45] <Philip`> Browsers should improve their plugin integration so that Flash doesn't have to be in a special plugin box
  198. # [08:47] <othermaciej> I am more inclined at present to put Flash in a hermetically sealed box
  199. # [08:47] <othermaciej> so that it can stop crashing the browser so much
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  201. # [08:47] <sayrer> yeah... like a different process
  202. # [08:52] <annevk42> oh look, the mainframe argument came back
  203. # [08:54] <othermaciej> everything has a constituency
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  205. # [08:59] <jgraham> re: http://twitter.com/masinter/statuses/1929353498 it may be me that is being mocked for calling him impolite (asserting that something was useless because he personally couldn't think of the uses)
  206. # [09:05] <hsivonen> MPEG-4 as an "open standard" is persuasive against single-vendor ad hoc formats but still not good enough, because it is patent-encumbered
  207. # [09:05] <othermaciej> I don't think calling someone impolite is an ad hominem argument
  208. # [09:05] <othermaciej> unless you say that because they are impolite, the position they hold must be wrong
  209. # [09:14] * heycam wonders why sam's latest mail is sent in UTF-7 and says "application/xhtml왩" instead of "application/xhtml+xml"
  210. # [09:17] <annevk42> heycam, maybe because your mail client sucks? wfm
  211. # [09:17] <heycam> could be
  212. # [09:18] <Philip`> I see "+xml" in the raw message, but I guess that gets decoded funny as UTF-7
  213. # [09:18] <heycam> yeah
  214. # [09:19] <Philip`> In Thunderbird I get 왩
  215. # [09:19] <heycam> i'm using mutt
  216. # [09:19] <heycam> (and as the author says, all mail clients suck...)
  217. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> heycam: yeah, I get the 왩 in mutt too
  218. # [09:19] <heycam> i guess thunderbird encoded incorrectly (since tb is what sam used it seems)
  219. # [09:20] <othermaciej> is he sending UTF-7 as a way to make a subtle point about recent list discussion?
  220. # [09:22] <heycam> heh that was my first thought, but then i couldn't work out what that point would be
  221. # [09:25] <Philip`> He was replying to a message that was also UTF-7, so I'd guess his mail client copied that by default
  222. # [09:28] <hsivonen> URL to UTF-7 email?
  223. # [09:28] <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0469.html
  224. # [09:28] <hsivonen> heycam: thanks
  225. # [09:28] <heycam> it interestingly caused the list archive to omit the links to senders/receivers
  226. # [09:30] <heycam> oh not omitted, just included verbatim as invalid html (<span id="to"><dfn>To</dfn>: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com></span>)
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  239. # [09:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems you should have adopted the "HTML won" or "HTML is winning" line in the WaSP interview without talking about "4"
  240. # [09:58] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.38)
  241. # [09:58] <annevk42> lol yeah; I'm still wondering what Leif is trying to proof, but it sure is funny
  242. # [10:00] <hsivonen> I guess it really is inconsistent to say that HTML 4 is winning while at the same time holding the line that the implemented HTML and HTML 4 are very distinct
  243. # [10:00] <hsivonen> so HTML as she are spoke is winning hands down
  244. # [10:00] <hsivonen> not worth a thread, though
  245. # [10:02] <annevk42> it doesn't seem worth it to have an argument about that
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  247. # [10:05] <annevk42> oh jd/adobe's archives are fun: http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2008/08/lets_use_microsoft_runtimes.html
  248. # [10:06] * Joins: philipj__ (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com)
  249. # [10:07] <annevk42> hsivonen, we disabled UTF-7 outside email I believe
  250. # [10:08] <annevk42> hsivonen, UTF-7 and UTF-32 should no longer work in the latest Opera
  251. # [10:08] <hsivonen> annevk42: excellent
  252. # [10:08] <hsivonen> I've lost track of what happened to the UTF-7 disablement effort in Gecko
  253. # [10:12] <hsivonen> annevk42: "When asked why, the most common response is something along the lines of "Because Adobe might do something bad someday." (At this point I want to ask, "What, like they did with PostScript or PDF?" ;-)" is interesting
  254. # [10:12] <hsivonen> annevk42: because one might argue Adobe started morphing PDF in undesirable ways after PDF 1.4
  255. # [10:13] <annevk42> they killed FlashPaper
  256. # [10:13] <hsivonen> I didn't like the effort to turn Adobe Reader into an enterprise client platform before Adobe bought Macromedia
  257. # [10:14] <annevk42> they charge for Flash to make it work on devices as far as I know and Flash is not available everywhere
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  259. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Adobe Intelligent Document platform it was called, IIRC
  260. # [10:15] <annevk42> does Gecko have its own Unicode and character encoding converter implementation?
  261. # [10:16] <hsivonen> annevk42: yes
  262. # [10:16] <hsivonen> annevk42: Opera has, too, right?
  263. # [10:17] <annevk42> afaik
  264. # [10:17] <annevk42> I think Safari relies on Mac OS libraries
  265. # [10:17] <annevk42> I wonder what Chrome is doing
  266. # [10:19] <hsivonen> I wouldn't be surprised if Chrome shipped ICU
  267. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Safari uses system ICU
  268. # [10:22] <annevk42> seems that Chrome uses ICU
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  270. # [10:23] <annevk42> hmm, is it normal for browsers to be bundled with FFmpeg?
  271. # [10:23] <annevk42> -> http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/deps/third_party/
  272. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> what do they use xulrunner for?
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  276. # [10:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the check-in message is interesting: http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/deps/third_party/xulrunner-sdk/?view=log
  277. # [10:28] <othermaciej> SafariWin ships ICU
  278. # [10:28] <annevk42> I'm now getting "An Exception Has Occurred"
  279. # [10:29] <hsivonen> annevk42: It'll be interesting to see what they do with ffmpeg and how they navigate the patent/(L)GPL situation
  280. # [10:30] <annevk42> http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/deps/third_party/xulrunner-sdk/win/README.google hmm
  281. # [10:30] <annevk42> hsivonen, yeah
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  283. # [10:36] <othermaciej> Chrome includes the xulrunner SDK?
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  285. # [10:37] <annevk42> I don't think everything in that directory is included in Chromium
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  293. # [10:51] <zcorpan_> Hixie: <td><dfn title="attr-marquee-behavior-alternate">scroll</dfn> - s/scroll/alternate/
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  296. # [10:57] <zcorpan_> Hixie: why are marquee's event handler attributes just on <marquee> while the other event handler attributes are global?
  297. # [10:58] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "title="dom-marquee-trueSpeed"><code>trueSpeed</code></dfn>, DOM" - drop the comma
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  299. # [10:59] <annevk42> zcorpan_, so they onlly pollute marquee iirc
  300. # [11:00] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@conference/ubuntu-developer-summit/x-8161707aeced3496)
  301. # [11:02] <zcorpan_> annevk2: why do we want to pollute everything with <video>-specific event handler attributes, then?
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  304. # [11:08] <annevk42> so you can listen to video events on parent elements using event handlers
  305. # [11:08] <annevk42> I guess
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  308. # [11:11] <zcorpan_> annevk2: but they don't bubble
  309. # [11:12] <annevk42> then I don't know
  310. # [11:12] <Dashiva> Capture?
  311. # [11:12] <annevk42> maybe event handlers are typically put on HTMLElement?
  312. # [11:12] <annevk42> Dashiva, event handlers can't capture
  313. # [11:13] <Dashiva> Oh, the attribute handlers? My bad.
  314. # [11:14] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "(Top to Button)" - typo
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  323. # [11:31] <Dashiva> "There is no universal rule that will always work which would allow you to differentiate CURIEs from URIs"
  324. # [11:32] <Dashiva> I thought that was what safe CURIEs were for? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0426.html>
  325. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Dashiva: seems like an unfortunate design
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  331. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> would be nice to have some kind of general response available to the "we already spent month/years working on this specification"
  332. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> for the case where the "we" didn't include actual UA implementors
  333. # [11:41] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  334. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> or at least a way that I could get a nickel for every time somebody said that
  335. # [11:42] <Dashiva> Or a beer?
  336. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  337. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> yeah, even better
  338. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> or a chu-hai
  339. # [11:42] <Dashiva> You might be too drunk to work most days, though
  340. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> we've crossed that bridge already
  341. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> the too-drunk-to-work bridge
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  344. # [11:45] * jgraham is surprised MikeSmith made it all the way acroos the bridge rather than haphazardly stumbling off the edge into the water
  345. # [11:45] <annevk42> MikeSmith, we do, "Sorry, not part of the Web. Try again."
  346. # [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk42: how about some less divisive rethoric?
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  353. # [11:53] <jgraham> annevk42: I'm not sure that is an answer to the same question. I mean RDFa could be "part of the web" in some sense but that doesn't mean it's a good idea
  354. # [11:54] <annevk42> "Sorry, won't work on the Web. Try again."
  355. # [11:55] <jgraham> As hsivonen said it's nice to be more diplomatic than that when you tell people their baby is ugly. Although it often doesn't seem to help
  356. # [11:55] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I guess the argument is that we should make decisions based on future costs, not on past costs
  357. # [11:56] <annevk42> jgraham, I think hsivonen was sarcastic
  358. # [11:56] <annevk42> problem with RDFa is that it's made for XHTML which is not really there nor here
  359. # [11:57] <annevk42> the retrofitting it for HTML process is interesting though
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  362. # [11:58] <Dashiva> Leif doesn't seem to get the whole cowpath thing...
  363. # [11:59] <jgraham> annevk42: Maybe. IMHO the problem with RDFa is rather that it is too hard to use in any serialization. It doesn't really meet at least the last three criterion in http://standblog.org/blog/post/2009/05/20/About-Generativity
  364. # [11:59] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.205.25) (Remote closed the connection)
  365. # [11:59] <jgraham> But meeting all those criterion is pretty much essential to be a success on the web scale
  366. # [12:00] <annevk42> I was just commenting on it not even working
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  369. # [12:01] <Philip`> If it's going to fail on the web scale, it'd be nice to minimise the harm that it causes while failing
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  371. # [12:02] <jgraham> annevk42: Right but that is a technical problem which can (in principle) be solved. Focusing on the soluble problem whilst ignoring the hard, systemic issues seems like the wrong approach
  372. # [12:03] <Philip`> (e.g. by trying to ensure it's defined in a way that fits sensibly within HTML-processor architectures, so that it won't cause those architectures to be changed to accommodate it)
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  375. # [12:09] <Philip`> (...and then it can compete with other approaches to data markup, and can win or lose based on the inherent merits of its design rather than on the bugginess/non-standardisation of implementations)
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  377. # [12:10] <Dashiva> RDFa qualifies as QNames in content, right?
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  379. # [12:12] <jgraham> Philip`: I am not disagreeing with the reasonableness of what your are doing, however I don't think it is the most important issue. I get the impression that some people thing that RDFa-in-HTML is a series of soluble technical challenges which, when solved, can pave the way to it being anointed the One True microdata solution.
  380. # [12:12] <Philip`> Dashiva: You probably shouldn't call them that, because people will disagree and say they're not QNames
  381. # [12:12] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  382. # [12:12] <Dashiva> But it's the same problem?
  383. # [12:12] <Philip`> Dashiva: Yes
  384. # [12:13] <Dashiva> I was wondering if it had fallen into obscurity because of all the other noise around RDFa, or if it's not considered an issue anymore
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  386. # [12:13] <Dashiva> E.g. @prefix would still have this issue
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  388. # [12:14] <Philip`> That's an issue to do with the inherent merits of RDFa's design, rather than being something that will cause a particular mess in text/html, so I don't care much about that problem now
  389. # [12:14] <Dashiva> Fair enough
  390. # [12:15] <Philip`> (xmlns:* will cause ugliness in HTML-to-XHTML serialisers and namespace-aware document models etc, whereas @prefix will just make RDFa fragile and hard to use)
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  393. # [12:25] <hsivonen> annevk42: I wasn't being sarcastic
  394. # [12:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah, RDFa has deeper issues than CURIEs, but it's alarming that fixing even the surface issues is so controversial
  395. # [12:27] <annevk42> hsivonen, oh, I thought since you're using those exact words...
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  399. # [12:27] <annevk42> I was sarcastic, though, in case that was unclear
  400. # [12:28] <Philip`> At least people seem to mostly agree that the surface issues need to be fixed, and don't just discard it as being invalid markup and therefore irrelevant
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  402. # [12:28] <hsivonen> annevk42: I was referring to shepazu's criticism, though
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  426. # [13:52] <Philip`> http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/ttldent/spec - "CURIE prefixes are hard-coded by this specification, with a fallback to lookups on prefix.cc"
  427. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Is there still any data on whether Google hard-codes v: ?
  428. # [13:55] <annevk42> "The <title> is parsed for ttldent"
  429. # [13:55] <annevk42> is that legal in RDFa too?
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  432. # [13:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: I've still not seen any way to test Google's RDFa support
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  439. # [14:16] <hsivonen> are microbloggers expected to type ttldent?
  440. # [14:17] <hsivonen> or are higher-layer semantic microblogging apps supposed to use twitter/identi.ca as RDF conduits?
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  463. # [15:35] <hsivonen> whee! lots of unit test failures in the html5lib suite after making EOF inside of tag discard the tag
  464. # [15:39] <Dashiva> whee as in "There is non-trivial test coverage!" or "Oh boy, lots of work fixing all these tests"? :)
  465. # [15:39] * philipj__ is now known as philipj
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  467. # [15:42] <hsivonen> Dashiva: more like: I wish test for condition x didn't gratuitously depend on error handling in case y
  468. # [15:43] * hsivonen goes look up blame for tests3
  469. # [15:43] <gsnedders> tests3 in the tokenizer?
  470. # [15:44] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yeah
  471. # [15:44] <gsnedders> They're the programmatically generated ones by Philip` testing all cases in the tok, IIRC
  472. # [15:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: should I manually edit tests3 or should they be regenerated?
  473. # [15:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: specifically, all the tests testing transitions inside tags should end in '>' instead of ending in EOF
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  482. # [16:19] <Philip`> hsivonen: Regeneration is non-trivial, so I suggest just editing them manually for now
  483. # [16:19] <Philip`> ("non-trivial" means I have to implement the new spec in OCaml)
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  485. # [16:20] <Philip`> (and probably modify the way it decides which test cases to generate)
  486. # [16:20] <jgraham> Philip`: But functional programming is supposed to be so simple :)
  487. # [16:21] <Philip`> jgraham: Sure, I wouldn't want to write a Java program to automatically generate tokeniser tests :-)
  488. # [16:21] <Philip`> but still I'd have to read the spec and work out what's changed
  489. # [16:21] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@conference/ubuntu-developer-summit/x-9ad1934a13717f82)
  490. # [16:22] <jgraham> Philip`: Maybe you should hve ritten it in lisp. It is well knon that lisp solves all problems for you
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  499. # [16:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
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  503. # [16:54] <hsivonen> http://blog.digitalbackcountry.com/2009/05/html5-versus-flash-versions/
  504. # [16:56] <annevk42> seems a bit ill-informed to base it on outdated Wikipedia information
  505. # [16:56] <Rik|work> so creating new features in flash is contributing to the open web ?
  506. # [16:57] <annevk42> if they take of they certainly create incentives
  507. # [17:01] * jgraham is intrigued at how actionscript can cover <nav>
  508. # [17:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: maybe they added an accessibility API in that rev?
  509. # [17:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: Could be. In general that table doesn't give enough information to tell what the corresponding feature is assumed to be
  510. # [17:05] <jgraham> e.g. I have never seen flash integrate with my browser urlbar which a good implementation of <input type="url"> would
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  512. # [17:08] <hsivonen> http://www.webkitchen.be/2009/05/27/adobe-versus-the-open-web/ seems to miss that the Open Web is about the 'open' part--not about the existence of features
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  514. # [17:13] <annevk2> could be that he's just trying to mislead
  515. # [17:15] <Dashiva> If he really is Asa, that would be expected
  516. # [17:15] <Dashiva> Wait, wrong blog
  517. # [17:15] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
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  520. # [17:17] <jgraham> His job title is "professional fanboy" so...
  521. # [17:17] <jgraham> Oh wait they call it "Adobe platform evangelist" but the effect is the same
  522. # [17:18] <Dashiva> "Remember the old days where you had to choose between Windows Media Player, Real Player and Quicktime?"
  523. # [17:18] <Dashiva> Remember the new days when you have to choose between Flash and Silverlight and ...
  524. # [17:18] <hsivonen> are you guys trying to make it to Last Week?
  525. # [17:19] <Dashiva> I don't have to try to make it to Last Week
  526. # [17:19] <Dashiva> It just happens on its own
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  528. # [17:25] <jgraham> I gave up trying to make MLW when it became obvious how easy that was
  529. # [17:26] <Dashiva> Although the last few times I'm just collateral damage for saying things inbetween the real juicy lines
  530. # [17:26] <ezyang> Good morning all!
  531. # [17:27] <Dashiva> How open are the various adobe things he lists as open?
  532. # [17:28] <jgraham> ezyang: The i18n people will have you for comments like that
  533. # [17:28] <Dashiva> I heard something about only the RTMP spec being released, but in a way so it wasn't possible to actually use it
  534. # [17:31] <ezyang> jgraham: I come from MIT: "good morning" is an appropriate salutation for whenever you've woken up, whether it be 10AM, 2PM, 6PM, or 1AM
  535. # [17:33] <Dashiva> But what if we haven't just woken up?
  536. # [17:33] <Dashiva> Why are you pushing your personal state onto us?
  537. # [17:33] * ezyang laughs maniacally
  538. # [17:33] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/psd/statuses/1935782044
  539. # [17:33] <Dashiva> What if some of us are easily manipulated, and end up thinking it's morning
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  545. # [17:47] <ezyang> gsnedders: Did you get a chance to try running the new test suite?
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  548. # [17:55] <ezyang> lock on php-tb TreeConstructer.php
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  555. # [18:13] <ezyang> Ugh... the whatwg spec keeps reflowing for no apparent reason.
  556. # [18:13] <ezyang> Maybe I should get a dual monitor setup
  557. # [18:18] <gsnedders> ezyang: No
  558. # [18:18] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  559. # [18:18] <gsnedders> ezyang: I read Anna Karenina for far too long last night and only got up at 1pm :P
  560. # [18:19] <gsnedders> ezyang: Also: there's more to life than html5lib :P
  561. # [18:19] <gsnedders> Or, at least, I think there is.
  562. # [18:21] <ezyang> Heh
  563. # [18:21] <ezyang> No life for me. Not at least until Saturday
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  565. # [18:21] <gsnedders> I guess I'm not meant to have any seeming I'm in study leave still.
  566. # [18:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: You are probably suppoed to study :)
  567. # [18:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: But the AH English class is going out tonight!
  568. # [18:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: The head of English arranged it! :P
  569. # [18:22] * Philip` ought to have no life until 2pm tomorrow, but will probably end up playing games instead of finishing his paper properly
  570. # [18:23] <gsnedders> Basically, we're a channel that's good at procrastinating.
  571. # [18:23] <gsnedders> And in the case of several of us good at procrastinating into doing things that are useful, but don't actually need to be done now.
  572. # [18:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, I've apparently signed up in a moment of stupidity to go to a Jesus open day.
  573. # [18:24] <gsnedders> (College, that is)
  574. # [18:24] <jgraham> Oh, I was confused for a moment there
  575. # [18:24] <jgraham> Which is ironic
  576. # [18:24] <gsnedders> :D
  577. # [18:24] <jgraham> Anyway, good college
  578. # [18:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: What? Don't you think of it? Haven't you had a thing or two to do with it? :P
  579. # [18:26] * jgraham notes that gsnedders is no longer making sense
  580. # [18:26] <gsnedders> "no longer"?
  581. # [18:26] <gsnedders> I stopped making sense a long time ago!
  582. # [18:26] <gsnedders> Making sense is _so boring_.
  583. # [18:26] <gsnedders> I mean, people understand you!
  584. # [18:27] <Philip`> If they're going to name colleges after people from books, they ought to pick good ones, like Saruman College
  585. # [18:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: Peh. There are better colleges, like Hixie College. :P
  586. # [18:29] * jgraham is struck by the overwhelming tempation to rename all the Cambridge colleges after Harry Potter characters
  587. # [18:32] <Philip`> jgraham: The university's 800th anniversary seems like a great opportunity to modernise in such a way
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  589. # [18:34] <jgraham> It would make us more accessible to people from a wide range of backgrounds
  590. # [18:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: Oh, and don't worry. I won't bully you into having supper with me for once. :D
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  611. # [19:08] <ezyang> Whoo, currently at "After head"
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  616. # [19:26] * jwalden_ is now known as jwalden
  617. # [19:28] <Philip`> http://radar.oreilly.com/upload/2009/05/html5.png - yay, geolocation
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  620. # [19:37] * ezyang rolls his sleeves up, and starts auditing the "in body" mode
  621. # [19:41] <Philip`> Watch out for intestines
  622. # [19:41] <ezyang> Ugh, I just hit something squishy...
  623. # [19:54] <ezyang> Hmm... I wonder why <h1><b><h1>foo</h1></b></h1> stopped being a parse error
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  626. # [20:03] <Hixie> btw has everyone seen http://www.youtube.com/html5 ?
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  629. # [20:03] <Hixie> hover over the thumbnails to see something that couldn't be done with flash :-)
  630. # [20:03] <gavin_> doesn't work in Firefox
  631. # [20:04] <Rik|work> Hixie: crashing a webkit nightly ? :)
  632. # [20:04] <Hixie> gavin_: yeah, it uses h.264 sadly
  633. # [20:05] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@63.80.141.130)
  634. # [20:05] <Hixie> Rik|work: works on mine
  635. # [20:06] <Rik|work> Hixie: dailymotion already did a demo like
  636. # [20:06] <ezyang> Not running nightlies, unfortunately :-(
  637. # [20:06] <atwilson> ap: quick question about how best to dispatch pending events in WorkerContext.close() - you around?
  638. # [20:07] <Rik|work> http://openvideo.dailymotion.com/
  639. # [20:07] <ap> atwilson: sure, let's discuss it on #webkit though
  640. # [20:07] <atwilson> Sigh, I'm an idiot. I'm using new IRC software and clearly can't figure out how to select the right channel :( sorry folks.
  641. # [20:07] <Hixie> Rik|work: nice
  642. # [20:08] <Rik|work> sad part is they require firefox
  643. # [20:08] <Rik|work> but that's just a demo
  644. # [20:08] <Hixie> yeah well until we figure out a standard codec everyone can use and implement, that's always gonna be a problem
  645. # [20:09] <Rik|work> no, they require firefox, not ogg
  646. # [20:10] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-129-222-81.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
  647. # [20:10] <Hixie> Rik|work: oh
  648. # [20:10] <Hixie> Rik|work: weird
  649. # [20:11] <Rik|work> maybe they were working with mozilla marketing, i don't know
  650. # [20:13] <annevk42> sort of glad I called on that email from masinter
  651. # [20:13] <annevk42> seems he wasn't quite in the know how we were using user agent
  652. # [20:14] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@U293a.u.pppool.de)
  653. # [20:14] <hober> seems like the spec uses it the way ordinary web developers use it...
  654. # [20:15] <annevk42> hmm, the YouTube HTML5 demo doesn't work in any of my browsers
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  656. # [20:17] <annevk42> hober, although the spec is quite hard to read, the terms it introduces and uses are at least somewhat sane most of the time
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  660. # [20:20] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "<dl class="intro">" should be domintro
  661. # [20:21] <Hixie> fixed
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  665. # [20:27] <hsivonen> what does http://www.youtube.com/html5 require to work?
  666. # [20:27] <ezyang> "An HTML5 capable browser", of course!
  667. # [20:28] <annevk42> WebKit nightlies I guess
  668. # [20:28] <annevk42> + Safari, doesn't seem like Chromium does <video>
  669. # [20:28] <hsivonen> :-(
  670. # [20:29] <Hixie> a <video> impl with h.264 decoder, i think
  671. # [20:29] <Hixie> latest safari 4 beta with latest webkit works
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  673. # [20:30] <inimino> it doesn't require O3D?
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  676. # [20:31] <inimino> oh, I guess that's talking about the demo in the video, not the demo the video is in...
  677. # [20:32] <annevk42> since just before dinner: "246 more results since you started searching. Refresh to see them." (twitter.com)
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  680. # [20:34] <annevk42> the publicity will give us more review (well, maybe), but Google did turn HTML5 into a term like DHTML, Ajax, etc.
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  682. # [20:35] <Hixie> i said that would happen about 6 months ago :-)
  683. # [20:35] <Hixie> when we starting talking about splitting stuff out i said we'd need a new term
  684. # [20:35] <Hixie> like web 5.0 or something
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  686. # [20:36] <annevk42> I guess HTML5 will now have 3 meanings
  687. # [20:36] <annevk42> language, serialization, catch-all for cool new stuff
  688. # [20:37] <annevk42> (and a historical fourth, XHTML 1.0)
  689. # [20:37] * zcorpan_ notes that the youtube html5 page has ugly link borders in firefox
  690. # [20:38] <zcorpan_> when will firefox have no border by default?
  691. # [20:38] <annevk42> "but also suggested that we need new extensions to HTML 5, for example, to support events from the accelerometer in the phone"
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  693. # [20:40] <ezyang> Huh. "Parse error. Change the token's tag name to "img" and reprocess it. (Don't ask.)"
  694. # [20:41] <annevk42> trouble reading?
  695. # [20:42] <annevk42> "Don't ask."
  696. # [20:42] <Hixie> he didn't technically ask :-)
  697. # [20:42] <annevk42> :p
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  699. # [20:44] <zcorpan_> i wonder where <image> was first implemented
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  707. # [21:10] <Hixie> what happened to all the interesting discussion on public-html?
  708. # [21:10] <Hixie> there hasn't been anything controverial in a day or so
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  716. # [21:42] <ezyang> I've hit the small intestines. Auditing "end tag of formatting element"
  717. # [21:42] <ezyang> How much should I expect this algorithm to have changed?
  718. # [21:43] * Quits: mhausenblas (n=mhausenb@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  719. # [21:43] * Philip` doesn't remember that having been changed much ever
  720. # [21:44] <Philip`> (The adoption agency definitely changed a bit, though)
  721. # [21:44] <Hixie> ezyang: i honestly can't remember
  722. # [21:45] <ezyang> Ok, I'm not at adoption yet :-)
  723. # [21:46] <ezyang> Ok, looks like step 5+ changed
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  728. # [21:58] <hsivonen> I'm amused how the mailing list archive demonstrates the badness of UTF-7
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  733. # [22:09] <ezyang> Hoorah, adoption agency algorithm vetted
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  743. # [22:31] <gsnedders> ezyang: Having fun while I've been out with my English class? :P
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  755. # [22:58] <zcorpan> "“5 > 2″ declared a slide from Vic Gundotra, VP of Engineering at Google, referring to new capabilities of HTML 5 that let us move beyond Web 2.0 apps." - http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=1123
  756. # [22:58] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se) (Client Quit)
  757. # [22:59] <gsnedders> Hah.
  758. # [22:59] <hober> whut. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8nomt/google_bets_big_on_html_5/c09uzvf
  759. # [23:01] <gsnedders> hober: Adverts only exist on the web.
  760. # [23:01] <gsnedders> It's simple.
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  763. # [23:06] <Hixie> haha, i was hoping he'd keep the 5 > 2 slide
  764. # [23:06] <Hixie> awesome
  765. # [23:06] <ezyang> That is pretty good.
  766. # [23:08] <ezyang> Why does the behavior for "table" end tag in "in table" insertion mode not generate implied end tags?
  767. # [23:08] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-67c8b5224d646fb3) (Remote closed the connection)
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  769. # [23:09] <gsnedders> ezyang: "Please leave your sense of logic at the door."
  770. # [23:09] <Dashiva> ezyang: Which implied end tags would that be?
  771. # [23:09] <ezyang> Hmmmm...
  772. # [23:09] <ezyang> Good point.
  773. # [23:10] <Dashiva> I'm not entirely sure, but intuitively I'd guess that "in table" means there is nothing open inside the table tag
  774. # [23:10] <ezyang> This is not strictly true (great example is "in body"), but I could convince myself it would always be true for "in table"
  775. # [23:11] * gsnedders is listening to Meeting Paris Hilton by Cansei De Ser Sexy from Cansei De Ser Sexy
  776. # [23:11] * gsnedders is blatantly cool.
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  778. # [23:11] <Hixie> ezyang: it doesn't need to because there can never be any open elements there that aren't parse errors
  779. # [23:12] <ezyang> savvy
  780. # [23:12] * gsnedders throws a parse error
  781. # [23:12] * olliej wonders if google actually enjoys insulting the people who write their browser
  782. # [23:13] <ezyang> it's super effective!
  783. # [23:13] <Dashiva> ezyang: Yeah, "in body" is different because body descendents don't all get their own parse states
  784. # [23:14] * gsnedders does backflip
  785. # [23:18] <Dashiva> olliej: link?
  786. # [23:19] <olliej> Dashiva: http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/05/google-bets-big-on-html-5.html
  787. # [23:19] <Hixie> olliej: who are we insulting now? i thought we just gave big props to mozilla, apple, and opera today
  788. # [23:20] <Philip`> http://radar.oreilly.com/upload/2009/05/browser_innovation.png - apparently the Apple products are very low on the User Experience scale
  789. # [23:20] <Hixie> actually i think that's saying they were early
  790. # [23:20] <olliej> i assume because we only write the browser
  791. # [23:21] <olliej> rather than being awesome
  792. # [23:21] <Philip`> Hixie: That's what the x-axis says, not the y-axis
  793. # [23:21] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  794. # [23:21] <olliej> Hixie: ooh
  795. # [23:21] <ezyang> The reddit commentors have said this already, but I'll say it again: wtf images
  796. # [23:21] <olliej> maybe it's because of geolocation
  797. # [23:21] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  798. # [23:22] <olliej> Hixie: which we implemented
  799. # [23:22] <Hixie> Philip`: sure, but if you imagine this line graph as being the cumulative result, it just means that apple contributed first
  800. # [23:22] <olliej> but it's good to see the arrogance and misrepresentation that defines google has not gone away
  801. # [23:22] <Hixie> olliej: i really have no idea what you're talking about :-)
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  803. # [23:23] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@63.80.141.130)
  804. # [23:24] <Hixie> Philip`: (think of it as analogous to a chart that has time vs total market share, with each product release being a dot on the line)
  805. # [23:24] <Hixie> Philip`: (the products don't correspond to absolute values on the y-axis)
  806. # [23:25] <sayrer> it's just a chart at a hype event
  807. # [23:25] <sayrer> nothing to get worked up about
  808. # [23:26] <sayrer> remember when steve jobs had the stainless steel and wooden pie chart that showed Firefox disappearing?
  809. # [23:29] <Dashiva> Everything except Safari and IE, wasn't it?
  810. # [23:29] <Dashiva> Poor Chrome, killed off before it even appeared :)
  811. # [23:29] <annevk42> sayrer, is there a video of that? sounds like fun
  812. # [23:29] <ezyang> Will problems happen if I ignore "if that token wasn't ignored"?
  813. # [23:30] <gsnedders> ezyang: Yes.
  814. # [23:30] <gavin_> annevk42: http://john.jubjubs.net/2007/06/14/a-pictures-worth-100m-users/
  815. # [23:30] <ezyang> ruh oh
  816. # [23:31] * ezyang rooby dooby doo
  817. # [23:32] <annevk42> gavin_, wow, lol
  818. # [23:32] <gavin_> I didn't even realize it was a stainless steel and wooden pie chart
  819. # [23:32] <gavin_> that offends me deeply
  820. # [23:33] <Dashiva> What is firefox anyway? Cheese?
  821. # [23:33] <gavin_> (my father was killed by a wooden pie chart in the Stainless Steel War)
  822. # [23:33] <sayrer> yes, the chart showed shocklingly tacky keynote defaults
  823. # [23:33] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@63.80.141.130)
  824. # [23:33] <olliej> gavin_: hehe
  825. # [23:33] <sayrer> like, the yuppie kitchen of powerpoint
  826. # [23:34] <olliej> sayrer: i at least apologised to those moz people i knew, and more importantly we don't have a track record of acting like we are single handedly responsible for work done by everyone else
  827. # [23:35] <annevk42> “HTML 5 gives you a <video> tag that’s as simple to use as the <image> tag.” -- http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Google_Throws_Its_Weight_Behind_HTML_5
  828. # [23:35] <Hixie> so apparently quite hard to use :-/
  829. # [23:36] <olliej> annevk42: it would be nice if chrome implemented it, given webkit has had it for more than a year and it took the gtk people 3 days to do their backend
  830. # [23:36] <gsnedders> And non-obvious in terms of what it gets parsed to :P
  831. # [23:36] <Hixie> olliej: seriously, what did google do today to offend you? As far as I'm aware we've done nothing but praise apple, opera, and mozilla today.
  832. # [23:36] <Dashiva> olliej: Why should anyone have to apologize? It's just marketing making a mess of things as usual?
  833. # [23:37] * annevk42 agrees it would be cool if Google came up with something nice for <video>
  834. # [23:37] <olliej> Hixie: i only pay attention to the press sound bites, because they're what will be repeated as truth from here on out
  835. # [23:37] <olliej> anyhoo
  836. # [23:37] * olliej should not vent here
  837. # [23:37] <olliej> as it's so far from topic
  838. # [23:37] <gsnedders> There's a topic in here? :\
  839. # [23:38] <annevk42> olliej, we hardly ever stay on topic :)
  840. # [23:38] <gsnedders> olliej: Now, go fix #13519 :P
  841. # [23:38] <ezyang> On another note, shouldn't "clear the stack back to a table body context" get a global definition?
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  843. # [23:38] <sayrer> olliej, you just need a bunch of unsold ad inventory to promote Safari/Windows
  844. # [23:39] <annevk42> olliej, it's not enough that everyone who cares enough to know knows Chromium is based on WebKit?
  845. # [23:39] <Hixie> olliej: ok, what has the press said to offend you? I've not seen anything bad so far.
  846. # [23:39] <olliej> Hixie: i was referring to the slide in which chrome apparently is more awesome than safari despite just using webkit
  847. # [23:40] <olliej> anyhoo
  848. # [23:40] <Hixie> olliej: if you are reading that line chart as saying that chrome is more awesome than safari then you are completely misreading the chart
  849. # [23:40] <olliej> like i said, offtopic
  850. # [23:40] <olliej> Hixie: y-axis is user experience
  851. # [23:40] <Hixie> olliej: if anything, it's saying chrome was last and building on the others
  852. # [23:40] <olliej> Hixie: x axis is time
  853. # [23:40] <olliej> hmmm
  854. # [23:41] <Hixie> olliej: it's a single line showing the cumulative experience (whatever that means)
  855. # [23:41] <Hixie> olliej: if it was a bar chart, then sure
  856. # [23:41] <Hixie> olliej: but it's showing how each of those browsers contributed to a single good (near-native) experience
  857. # [23:41] <Hixie> olliej: it's not even remotely trying to insult anyone, and like i said, the most it could say is safari was the first to contribute and chrome the last
  858. # [23:42] <Hixie> olliej: it is, if anything, complimenting apple more than google!
  859. # [23:42] * olliej wonders what chrome has contributed given it just uses webkit -- not a single listed feature of chrome isn't from webkit
  860. # [23:42] <olliej> no matter
  861. # [23:42] <Hixie> it _does_ matter
  862. # [23:42] <Hixie> you can't just go around saying that we're insulting you when we're actively trying to praise you
  863. # [23:44] <olliej> i read that chart as saying chrome is more awesome than safari, with no indication of what makes it more awesome -- the only difference is gelocation which is part of webkit
  864. # [23:45] <Hixie> then you read the chart completely wrong
  865. # [23:45] <olliej> apparently so
  866. # [23:45] <olliej> but i assume google is evil
  867. # [23:45] <Hixie> maybe you should stop making such assumptions
  868. # [23:45] <Hixie> it makes you come off as highly paranoid
  869. # [23:46] <Dashiva> Well, we could also agree that both Apple and Google are evil in their own ways
  870. # [23:46] <olliej> yeah probably
  871. # [23:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: Here's a challenge for this summer: get a photograph of me that I like.
  872. # [23:47] <Dashiva> But this doesn't really seem like a case of it...
  873. # [23:47] <Hixie> oh i'm not saying google is perfect, by any means
  874. # [23:47] <Hixie> but it's hard to take criticism seriously when one even criticises the praise
  875. # [23:48] <olliej> Hixie: meh
  876. # [23:48] <olliej> Hixie: is there a way to block the context menu?
  877. # [23:48] <Hixie> "meh" is hardly an apology, but i'll take it, since i assume it's the best i'll get
  878. # [23:48] <olliej> Hixie: eg. i right click (or whatever) to bring up the context menu
  879. # [23:49] <olliej> Hixie: i feel that slide isn't praise
  880. # [23:49] <Hixie> html5 lets you add stuff to the context menu, but there's no way to prevent it altogether
  881. # [23:49] <Hixie> (intentionally)
  882. # [23:49] <olliej> Hixie: but i can agree it's ambiguous
  883. # [23:49] <olliej> Hixie: ooh there is?
  884. # [23:49] <gsnedders> http://www.youtube.com/html5 doesn't have full-screen mode :(
  885. # [23:49] * olliej dreams of a day when html context menus actually extend beyond the window
  886. # [23:49] <Hixie> olliej: yeah, look up the <menu> element and the contextmenu="" attribute
  887. # [23:49] <gsnedders> => HTML 5 sux.
  888. # [23:50] <Hixie> gsnedders: hit f11
  889. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yes, Exposé works :P
  890. # [23:50] <Hixie> well if you're on mac... speak to olliej :-)
  891. # [23:50] <olliej> Hixie: yeah i just hit the same thing as gsnedders :D
  892. # [23:50] <atwilson> Hixie: quick question about worker handling of exceptions. The spec says: "For dedicated workers, if the error is still not handled afterwards, or if the error occured while handling a previous script error, the user agent must further queue a task to fire a worker error event at the Worker object associated with the worker."
  893. # [23:51] <atwilson> What does "still not handled" mean - does this mean "if the error event is not cancelled"?
  894. # [23:51] * gsnedders probably ought to forsake olliej and change browser
  895. # [23:51] * olliej cries
  896. # [23:51] <Hixie> atwilson: see html5, 6.5.6.5 Runtime script errors
  897. # [23:51] <gsnedders> olliej: Well, if Apple had hird me…
  898. # [23:51] <atwilson> thx
  899. # [23:51] <gsnedders> *hired
  900. # [23:51] <Hixie> atwilson: (it defines what it means for an error to be not handled)
  901. # [23:52] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@63.80.141.130)
  902. # [23:52] <Hixie> atwilson: let me know if it's still vague after that :-)
  903. # [23:52] <atwilson> All human knowledge is contained within the vastness that is www.w3.org/TR/html5
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  905. # [23:53] <Hixie> heh
  906. # [23:53] <Hixie> unlikely :-P
  907. # [23:54] <atwilson> sweet, 5.5.6.5 is crystal clear.
  908. # [23:54] <gsnedders> olliej: See, it's Apple's own fault :P
  909. # [23:54] <Hixie> atwilson: sweet
  910. # [23:55] <Hixie> atwilson: sorry about the cross-spec references being hard to follow
  911. # [23:55] <Hixie> atwilson: blame gsnedders, he hasn't figured out a way to automatically do them yet :-)
  912. # [23:55] * Hixie hides
  913. # [23:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, I have.
  914. # [23:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: I might not have implemented it yet, but I've figured it out.
  915. # [23:56] <Hixie> oh, good
  916. # [23:56] <Hixie> anything i need to do?
  917. # [23:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: I don't think so
  918. # [23:57] <annevk42> https://twitter.com/adambarth/status/1938713488 :p
  919. # Session Close: Thu May 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)