/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-01 / end

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1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 01 00:00:00 2009
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <annevk42> still, canvas can be on that whitelist just fine :)
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5. # [00:00] <gsnedders> annevk2: But whitelisting script is a lot harder :)
6. # [00:01] <takkaria> annevk42: mm, but it's in effect useless unless you happen to be able to be able to whitelist the code that paints on it, which is really what I meant
7. # [00:02] <annevk42> gsnedders, you wanna sandbox what it executes, not whitelist what it contains, methinks
8. # [00:02] <gsnedders> annevk42: How do you sandbox in currently shipping browsers, then?
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11. # [00:25] <jgraham> Wow is Laura really azsking for quantitative principles?
12. # [00:25] <jgraham> That's... crazy
13. # [00:27] <jgraham> At the very least the demand that the world be black or white seems unreasonable and unrealistic
14. # [00:32] <weinig> Hixie: I don't see a dataunavailable event being dispatched anywhere, is that from some other spec?
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19. # [00:50] <hober> gave a talk today at our local BarCamp about extensibility & HTML http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/BarCamp-San-Diego-5/
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21. # [00:51] <hober> (more-or-less a YAGNI rant about namespaces & distributed extensibility)
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25. # [01:23] <Dashiva> hober: Sensible stuff
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27. # [01:39] <mgrdcm> hober: nice. (hi)
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42. # [03:15] <ezyang> Just making sure I'm not crazy: If I have <math><p>, the <p> node gets placed *outside* of <math>, correct?
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46. # [03:35] <ezyang> Should active formatting elements list every contain a single element which is null?
47. # [03:35] <ezyang> *ever
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50. # [03:38] <ezyang> Oh, that's their internal representation of Marker
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55. # [03:56] <ezyang> Where in the spec does it specify that, after I encounter the </foreignObject> tag, I'm supposed to somehow switch back into IN_FOREIGN_CONTENT?
56. # [03:58] <ezyang> It looks like the spec makes a half-hearted attempt to keep the mode in "in foreign content", but as soon as we have some sort of complicated code inside that, we move to another mode and consequently lose the ability to "go back"
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59. # [04:06] <ezyang> Also, assuming that this is a spec error (I'd put it at an 80% chance it's not, but I'm hoping it is), PHP html5lib now has 100% tests passing
60. # [04:07] <ezyang> erm, s/tests/specced tests/
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62. # [04:07] <ezyang> And has, maybe, three nasty workarounds (one for empty doctypes, and two for namespaced attributes)
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120. # [08:37] <hsivonen> ezyang: The table taint thing is the only case where the tests deviated from current spec intentionally because of me
121. # [08:38] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: you can flip a setting in ie8 to disable the xss filter
122. # [08:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: where?
123. # [08:41] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: internet settings, security, custom level, scripting, enable xss filter
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125. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: you still around?
126. # [08:42] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: yep
127. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> about "If the area element has no href attribute, then the area represented by the element cannot be selected, and the alt attribute must be omitted."
128. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> does v.nu not already handle that correctly?
129. # [08:43] * zcorpan_ wonders why the labels are "(o) Disable-ON ( ) Enable-OFF"
130. # [08:44] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: dunno, that was re the spec bug you filed
131. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> oh
132. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> remind me which bug that was?
133. # [08:45] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6976
134. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> ah
135. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> I didn't file that one, it just got auto-assigned to me
136. # [08:46] <zcorpan_> oh
137. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> because dude filed it against the h:tml draft
138. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'll reply to it and close it out
139. # [08:47] <zcorpan_> i didn't look carefully enough at the labels
140. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> np
141. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> it did make me think some about how v.nu error-reporting could be improved for this case
142. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> because right now, v.nu just says, "Error: Required attributes missing on element area." for cases like this
143. # [08:49] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: hack jing to emit more useful messages? :)
144. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> well, I think hsivonen's already done some improvements that way
145. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> I was thinking about possibility adding it in the separate-pass assertions-checking
146. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> the assertions.sch Schematron file and the Assertions.java code
147. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> could have that specifically report, "An area element without an href attribute must not have an alt attribute."
148. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> or whatever
149. # [08:51] <zcorpan_> as another message?
150. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> yeah, it would need to be another message
151. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> if we did it that way
152. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> (as opposed to hacking jing)
153. # [08:53] <zcorpan_> i think it would be a better long-term solution to hack jing
154. # [08:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: thanks. not the most discoverable thing
155. # [08:53] <zcorpan_> but then again i'm not the one who's hacking
156. # [08:54] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: indeed, ie's preferences are even worse than opera's :)
157. # [08:54] <zcorpan_> at least opera has opera:config
158. # [08:54] <hsivonen> maybe I should put software.hixie.ch into my "intranet" and set the pref only for that
159. # [08:55] <hsivonen> hmm. but then the compat mode thing could do intranet weirdness and confuse my live DOM testing
160. # [08:56] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: you could make the compat mode not depend on intranet, no?
161. # [08:56] <hsivonen> yes
162. # [08:57] <zcorpan_> i just disabled the xss filter since all i use ie8 for is for viewing the live dom viewer :)
163. # [08:58] <hsivonen> I don't use it for much else, either, but sometimes I browse to a test case somewhere else or seach the Web in IE8 if I'm already in the IE8 window
164. # [08:58] * zcorpan_ noticed that opera's new mac native skin looks better than the previous skin
165. # [08:58] <hsivonen> is there a new public build of Opera?
166. # [08:59] <zcorpan_> my opera just auto-updated
167. # [08:59] <hsivonen> does Opera have different auto-update channels?
168. # [08:59] <zcorpan_> though i have flipped the "download all snapshots" pref
169. # [09:00] <hsivonen> ah. nice
170. # [09:00] * hsivonen didn't know about that pref, either
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172. # [09:01] <hsivonen> maybe I should put Chrome on dev channel, too
173. # [09:01] * hsivonen wonders if WebKit nightlies on Windows have autoupdate these days
174. # [09:01] <zcorpan_> in chrome it's even harder to discover
175. # [09:01] <zcorpan_> although i guess it depends on how you go about to find out how to do it
176. # [09:02] <zcorpan_> if you google for it it might be easier in chrome
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179. # [09:06] <hsivonen> hmm. has Chrome 2 even not been pushed to stable channel yet?
180. # [09:07] <hsivonen> or is my instance of chrome just slow to update because I don't leave the Windows VM idle for long enough times with Chrome open?
181. # [09:08] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Chrome defaults to SSL cert CRL off
182. # [09:08] <hsivonen> cert security FTW
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185. # [09:17] <othermaciej> I don't believe Chrome 2 is in the stable channel
186. # [09:17] <othermaciej> I think it's "beta"
187. # [09:17] <othermaciej> stable is 1.0
188. # [09:17] <othermaciej> dev is 3.0.x
189. # [09:17] <hsivonen> ok.
190. # [09:17] <othermaciej> yay for burning through version numbers
191. # [09:18] <abarth> othermaciej: 2 is in stable
192. # [09:18] <hsivonen> it seems to me that Chrome 3 is slow to start playing Ogg files
193. # [09:18] <abarth> othermaciej: 1.0 is dead
194. # [09:18] <othermaciej> abarth: I guess I was out of date
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196. # [09:18] <hsivonen> I wonder if they wait for the whole file in order to show the time track
197. # [09:18] <abarth> othermaciej: i'm not sure whether it's been pushed out for auto update or just for folks who ask for it
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199. # [09:23] <othermaciej> "plugin prison" seems to be an effective buzzword
200. # [09:23] <othermaciej> it's much more hostile than I would go for in explaining the benefits of <video> and such...
201. # [09:40] <ojan> abarth: 2.0 has not been pushed on autoupdate yet. it's just there for new installs.
202. # [09:41] <abarth> ojan: thanks
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204. # [09:47] <Mrmil> I have a <h1> element with <img ... alt="Some Company"> logo but this outliner (http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/) doesn't show the alt text in the outline. Do you think it would be possible to make it reads the alt text and show it if no other text is present?
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206. # [09:52] <gsnedders> Mrmil: zcorpan_ was trying to get me to implement that :P
207. # [09:53] <zcorpan_> i think Hixie is wasting people's time with making </head>, </body> and </html> do something other than being ignored
208. # [09:54] <Mrmil> gsnedders: Hehehe, did he succeed? :)
209. # [09:54] <gsnedders> Mrmil: I guess I probably will
210. # [09:54] <gsnedders> (get around to doing it)
211. # [09:55] <Mrmil> gsnedders: Ok. *grins*
212. # [09:56] <annevk42> zcorpan_, he's right about whitespace roundtripping though
213. # [09:56] <annevk42> zcorpan_, but supposedly editors have to deal differently with whitespace anyway
214. # [09:57] <annevk42> zcorpan_, though that would indicate the current parsing algorithm is not suitable for editors
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216. # [09:57] <zcorpan_> i guess editors would want to preserve whitespace between attributes too
217. # [09:57] <annevk42> yeah
218. # [09:57] <zcorpan_> which means that the dom is not a suitable model for editors
219. # [09:58] <gsnedders> Hmm, Sims 3's first release date is tomorrow
220. # [09:58] <hsivonen> I think Dreamweaver preserves all sorts of crazy parse errors
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222. # [09:58] <hsivonen> the suitability of the parsing algorithm depends on the kind of editor
223. # [09:58] <hsivonen> if you want to make a GUI-only editor, it's fine
224. # [09:59] <zcorpan_> yeah i guess you'd want to preserve weird doctypes and bogus comments etc too
225. # [09:59] <hsivonen> if you want to make a dual GUI/text editor like Dreamweaver, you are in the world of hurt and complexity
226. # [10:03] <Hixie> man, jd really has his job cut out for him when his customers go to lengths like these: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8opdq/html_5_and_web_video_freeing_rich_media_from/c09yhr2
227. # [10:10] * hsivonen wonders when accessibility enters the Flash v. HTML5 comparisons with more force
228. # [10:10] <othermaciej> Hixie: his new story appears to be that HTML is just the next Silverlight
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230. # [10:10] <hsivonen> How's Flash accessibility doing on Mac and Linux these days?
231. # [10:10] <Hixie> othermaciej: wow, that's quite the compliment he's giving us
232. # [10:10] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
233. # [10:11] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that comparison is why I try to discourage people from citing Bespin as an HTML5 poster child...
234. # [10:11] <Hixie> bespin is a poster child for us providing <textarea> syntax highlighting :-)
235. # [10:11] <Hixie> maybe in the next version...
236. # [10:11] <Hixie> (i mean seriously, they must REALLY want that feature to do what they did in bespin)
237. # [10:12] <Hixie> (it's a technological tour de force)
238. # [10:13] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-683ed3f5d5193637)
239. # [10:17] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-f2ba471fef9293be)
240. # [10:17] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-683ed3f5d5193637) (Remote closed the connection)
241. # [10:17] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-10082a56f87c68df)
242. # [10:17] <annevk42> Hixie, I've the feeling that's not enough
243. # [10:18] <annevk42> Hixie, how would you e.g. implement code-auto-completion?
244. # [10:18] <Hixie> we'd probably need that too, yes
245. # [10:19] <Hixie> maybe textarea needs to be defined as an xbl2 binding to contenteditable content
246. # [10:20] * Joins: philipj (n=philipj@88.131.66.80)
247. # [10:21] <hsivonen> there's also the issue that the DOM is rather heavy-weight as the model of a text editor view
248. # [10:21] <othermaciej> so far I've had people tell me I should add more disclaimers to the design principles, I should either make them stated absolutely without disclaimers or delete them, or that I should state them without disclaimers but with an unstated expectation that they are not actually absolute
249. # [10:21] <othermaciej> rarely have I seen a more clear example of the You Can't Please Everybody principle
250. # [10:22] <hsivonen> maybe we should document that We Can't Please Everybody
251. # [10:22] <annevk42> maybe we should have a principle: "Design Principles are no Magic Wand"
252. # [10:22] <othermaciej> hsivonen: but what if there is a case where you can please everybody?
253. # [10:23] <hsivonen> othermaciej: these absolutes are hard
254. # [10:24] <othermaciej> I also can't believe that "Tables" was cited as an example of a good design principle
255. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> I think the principle should be stated, For Any Given Proposal|Decision, We Will Have at Least One Jackass Formally Object to It, Verbosely
256. # [10:26] * annevk42 wonders how bad the fallout will be from Hixie's latest email
257. # [10:27] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I think we may have actually had some decisions that occurred without a Formal Objection
258. # [10:27] <othermaciej> can't remember though
259. # [10:28] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host86-144-251-8.range86-144.btcentralplus.com)
260. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> I think if we had a proposed decision to publish the statement, "It's very likely that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.", we'd have objections .
261. # [10:28] <othermaciej> IE is down to 65.59%
262. # [10:29] <othermaciej> that puts it at down 2.56% for the year to date
263. # [10:29] <othermaciej> at this rate it will still take years to get under 50%
264. # [10:30] <jgraham> othree: In any case "You can't please everybody" would be rejected on the grounds that it was just a thinly veiled excuse not to care about accessibility
265. # [10:31] <jgraham> Or rather people would complain about it citing that as a reason
266. # [10:31] <Hixie> i care about accessibility
267. # [10:31] <Hixie> it's self-styled accessibility experts i don't care about :-)
268. # [10:31] <jgraham> Hixie: I care about accessibility too
269. # [10:32] <Hixie> of course many of them don't seem to be able to distinguish the two
270. # [10:33] <othermaciej> I'm not generally in favor of self-styled experts of any stripe
271. # [10:33] <jgraham> The point was that given a self-evident principle like "you can't please everybody", I predict that we would get complaints that the principle could be used as an excuse to preferentially exclude the disabled
272. # [10:33] <othermaciej> I prefer the kind that can do without styling themselves
273. # [10:33] <jgraham> Even though that would, of course, not be the case
274. # [10:33] <Hixie> people already claim that
275. # [10:34] <Hixie> so i don't think that would be a new problem
276. # [10:34] <othermaciej> nowadays people seem more concerned with us excluding critical non-browser HTML implementations
277. # [10:34] <othermaciej> such as libwww-perl and refrigerators
278. # [10:34] <gavin_> I don't think jgraham was tying to claim that it would be anew problem :)
279. # [10:35] <jgraham> Hixie: Sure. I was just pointing out how even the most obvious statement of compromise would be bent by those determined to see HTML5/HATWG/hatever in a bad light
280. # [10:35] <Hixie> well sure
281. # [10:35] <Hixie> but as you say
282. # [10:35] <Hixie> even the most obvious statement would be taken that way
283. # [10:35] <Hixie> so i wouldn't concern myself with that
284. # [10:36] <jgraham> wwwww <- please insert any extra w's from this stash
285. # [10:37] <othermaciej> jgraham: did you break your w?
286. # [10:39] <abarth> i'm trying to think of some way to direct this discussion so that I can be quoted by Mr. Last Week
287. # [10:40] <Hixie> you have such low ambitions :-P
288. # [10:40] <Hixie> btw, thanks to plh's clarifications, i'm glad to say that html5 is now a standard (in development), rather than just a recommendation
289. # [10:40] <abarth> Hixie: easy for you to say. you get quoted by him all the time :)
290. # [10:40] <Hixie> at least on the whatwg site
291. # [10:40] <othermaciej> abarth: your line above might be enough!
292. # [10:41] <othermaciej> mpilgrim got cited so you can score without your name being on his enemies list apparently
293. # [10:41] <Hixie> abarth: you just have to compliment easily offended people using long words that he won't understand
294. # [10:41] <abarth> haha
295. # [10:42] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
296. # [10:42] <Hixie> abarth: or, say things that are insults but are stated in ways that make the insult sound like they are the most obvious thing in the world to you
297. # [10:42] <annevk42> othermaciej, I think mpilgrim made it to his list
298. # [10:42] <Hixie> abarth: (e.g. implying that mr last week doesn't understand long words)
299. # [10:42] <annevk42> considering what he said about him anyway
300. # [10:42] <othermaciej> annevk42: he has now I guess
301. # [10:43] <othermaciej> but he wasn't on the canonical list of Enemies of the People
302. # [10:43] <Hixie> there's an enemies list?
303. # [10:43] <abarth> I think Mr. Last Week is secretly a fan of Hixie and is trying to discredit the opposition by being rediculous.
304. # [10:43] <annevk42> not an actual published list
305. # [10:44] <othermaciej> r*i*diculous
306. # [10:44] <gsnedders> abarth: I think we need to undermine the IETF HTTPbis WG by saying you shouldn't concat. headers with ", " :)
307. # [10:44] <othermaciej> (spelling pet peeve)
308. # [10:44] <othermaciej> annevk42: remember his TPAC checklist?
309. # [10:44] <othermaciej> abarth: it's hard to tell!
310. # [10:44] * gsnedders notes annevk42 signed that and othermaciej didn't :P
311. # [10:44] <othermaciej> abarth: his "satirical" posts sometimes make the opposition sounds dumb
312. # [10:44] <annevk42> othermaciej wasn't there...
313. # [10:44] <gsnedders> annevk42: I know.
314. # [10:45] <gsnedders> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2979057018/in/set-72157608267037421/
315. # [10:45] <othermaciej> abarth: but the outright profane ones, or postings of the most unflattering photos of Hixie he could find on the internet, those seem sincerely mean-spirited
316. # [10:45] <abarth> gsnedders: I don't really understand the HTTPbis WG. It's unclear to me how to help out there.
317. # [10:45] <othermaciej> gsnedders: I'll get you at this year's TPAC if it ends up happening and people go
318. # [10:45] <othermaciej> (I gather the fee is controversial...)
319. # [10:45] <Hixie> in all fairness, i'm proud of that vampire photo
320. # [10:46] <Hixie> it was taken at a party at hyatt's when i was an intern at netscape
321. # [10:46] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I'm _probably_ not going.
322. # [10:46] * gsnedders wonders
323. # [10:46] <gsnedders> Oh, that vampire photo
324. # [10:46] <othermaciej> plenty o' cred, then
325. # [10:46] <gsnedders> abarth: Nor do I understand them.
326. # [10:47] <othermaciej> abarth: they seem more interested in spitting the RFC into a dozen pieces than in actually fixing anything
327. # [10:48] <abarth> Hixie: how far back is the vampire picture? i've been scrolling through but don't see it yet
328. # [10:49] <Hixie> i dunno, i don't actually read lastweek so i've no idea how many posts he's written
329. # [10:49] <Hixie> (i have far better things to do with my life!)
330. # [10:49] <Hixie> such as today, going to maker faire and then seeing wicked, which, by the way, is pretty good as a musical
331. # [10:49] <Hixie> though i prefer into the woods
332. # [10:49] <Hixie> (and avenue q, of course)
333. # [10:49] <Hixie> (though anyone who's read the spec realises this)
334. # [10:50] <gsnedders> Oh, I need to get ticket to go and see Avenue Q/
335. # [10:50] * gsnedders is reminded :P
336. # [10:50] <abarth> i missed avenue q, but i did make it to wicked
337. # [10:50] <Hixie> man when i start writing examples later this year, i hope i don't run out of quotes from these musicals to put in the spec
338. # [10:50] <Hixie> abarth: did you see the one in SF?
339. # [10:50] <abarth> Hixie: yes
340. # [10:50] <Hixie> abarth: i was _really_ impressed by the production value there
341. # [10:50] <Hixie> holy crap
342. # [10:51] <Hixie> that's some serious set dec
343. # [10:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do you know anything about the London production?
344. # [10:51] <othermaciej> I saw Up today
345. # [10:51] <abarth> Hixie: Yeah, I always worry when I see a play outside of NY or London that I'm missing out, but the production was really good
346. # [10:51] <othermaciej> I rarely look up MLW unless someone mentions it here
347. # [10:51] <Hixie> up was pretty fantastic too
348. # [10:51] <Hixie> though that's to be expected
349. # [10:52] <othermaciej> but I am flattered that he adopted the name I assigned him
350. # [10:52] <Hixie> what with it being the movie of the year and all
351. # [10:52] <Hixie> though i may have to update the example in the spec
352. # [10:52] <othermaciej> (I believe I coined the term "Mr. Last Week" back in the day)
353. # [10:52] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@203-217-67-148.dyn.iinet.net.au)
354. # [10:52] <Hixie> because up comes before a number of the other movies in the list
355. # [10:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: what example?
356. # [10:52] <Hixie> gsnedders: no idea (re london)
357. # [10:52] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-229.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
358. # [10:53] <othermaciej> Up was surprisingly not-for-little-kids
359. # [10:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: Damnit, I was counting on you! :P
360. # [10:53] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.207.122)
361. # [10:53] <gsnedders> Ah, Up doesn't come out here until October :(
362. # [10:53] * gsnedders always hates the fact that Pixar films don't come out here for months
363. # [10:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, the trailers had me worried that it was going to be dreamworks-like, but woah was that a mistaken worry
364. # [10:54] <othermaciej> Dreamworks is not in the same league as Pixar
365. # [10:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: i guess i should have more faith in ye people of emeryville
366. # [10:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: "The top 10 movies of all time"?
367. # [10:54] <Hixie> gsnedders: no comment
368. # [10:54] <gsnedders> :P
369. # [10:54] <Hixie> and re the release date, i guess it's because they have to do all the subtitling and so on
370. # [10:54] * Hixie ducks
371. # [10:55] <othermaciej> I say that having recently seen "Monsters vs. Aliens" and moderately enjoyed it
372. # [10:55] * gsnedders slaps Hixie
373. # [10:55] <othermaciej> so I wonder if John Lasseter really has full creative control of all Disney animation now
374. # [10:55] <othermaciej> because apparently they have a new cel-animated feature coming up
375. # [10:55] <othermaciej> and I am wondering whether I should expect it to be any good
376. # [10:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: Actually, Cars at least did in parts have a different audio track (and script, and hence animation) of the character's voices at parts here!
377. # [10:56] <Hixie> wow
378. # [10:56] <Hixie> i know monsters, inc did
379. # [10:56] <Hixie> the non-us version had different graphics in a couple of places
380. # [10:57] <Hixie> e.g. the "walk/don't walk" sign is symbols, iirc
381. # [10:57] <Hixie> and the alert in the code 21 or whatever it's called was a different symbol
382. # [10:57] * gsnedders only got around see seeing Ratatouille in English over Christmas, having been bullied by French relatives into seeing it in Paris in French when it came out :P
383. # [10:57] <Hixie> ew! ewewew!
384. # [10:57] <Hixie> dubbing!
385. # [10:57] <Hixie> ewwwww!
386. # [10:57] * Hixie backs away from the forever tainted gsnedders
387. # [10:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: Did you see an undubbed version of Црна мачка, бели мачор the?
388. # [10:58] <gsnedders> *then
389. # [10:58] <Hixie> yes
390. # [10:58] <Hixie> i doubt there has ever been a dub for it
391. # [10:58] <gsnedders> That is true.
392. # [10:58] <jgraham> Please do not get me started on the insanity of Pixar release dates. The films are amazing. The delays of months and months and months are inexcusable.
393. # [10:59] * gsnedders wonders where he'll be in October…
394. # [10:59] <Hixie> gsnedders: actually that movie is the first example of a movie that was so good that by the end i actually forgot i was reading subtitles
395. # [10:59] * zcorpan_ marks all html5 alerts from the weekend as read
396. # [10:59] <Hixie> lol
397. # [10:59] <zcorpan_> if there was something interesting, let me know :)
398. # [11:00] <Hixie> all the interesting stuff was mentioned in this channel i think
399. # [11:00] <zcorpan_> k
400. # [11:00] <Hixie> though if you haven't seen the wave keynote video, i recommend that
401. # [11:00] <Hixie> http://code.google.com/events/io/
402. # [11:01] <zcorpan_> i saw that on friday
403. # [11:01] <Hixie> and the first keynote is worth it just for the one slide
404. # [11:01] <zcorpan_> or maybe i just saw part 2
405. # [11:01] <zcorpan_> s/part/day/
406. # [11:01] <gsnedders> Hixie: I must admit I was impressed by how well Ratatouille was done in French, though at parts it was obvious it wasn't the original language (though it was re-animated so the mouth movements all fit), as the language at times got too complex for the age-range trying to stay fairly close to the English
407. # [11:03] * gsnedders tends to think dubbed films aren't very good
408. # [11:04] <annevk42> Spirited Away was not too bad I thought, but then I never watched the original
409. # [11:05] <gsnedders> I didn't think the dubbing of that was overly good in that
410. # [11:12] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.200.46) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
411. # [11:22] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
412. # [11:23] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
413. # [11:26] * zcorpan_ tries the custom search element on his site and finds that it is more to it than just copy-and-paste-and-be-done-with-it
414. # [11:26] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
415. # [11:32] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the google web elements snippets aren't valid html5
416. # [11:33] <Hixie> i am shocked
417. # [11:33] <Hixie> (if you really want me to tell the team, send me a mail to ianh@google.com and i'll forward it appropriately)
418. # [11:35] <Hixie> ok i should probably head to bed
419. # [11:35] <Hixie> nn
420. # [11:43] <zcorpan_> <feature name="API:example.org.geolocation" - http://www.w3.org/mid/4A1FF4AA.2030409@opera.com
421. # [11:43] <zcorpan_> reversed dns labels++
422. # [11:45] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
423. # [11:45] <hsivonen> oh noes. Feature enumeration rides again. :-/
424. # [11:45] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Reversed DNS labels-- because they didn't write it in proper reverse order
425. # [11:45] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
426. # [11:46] <zcorpan_> maybe they should be called Labels DNS Reversed
427. # [11:47] <jgraham> Philip`: it is presumably using the .example tld
428. # [11:48] <gavin_> instead of the example.org domain?
429. # [11:48] <gavin_> seems unlikely
430. # [11:48] <zcorpan_> although he never said it was a reversed dns label, he just minted the API: url scheme
431. # [11:48] <jgraham> (Although that would be inconsistent with the rest of the message and willfully obscure, so I may not be being entirely serious)
432. # [11:49] <zcorpan_> i guess my point is that people will misunderstand how to write reversed dns labels
433. # [11:50] <hsivonen> I seriously doubt the utility of the <feature> feature
434. # [11:50] <hsivonen> I guess I should send a comment, but I'm probably late considering BONDI's schedule
435. # [11:52] <annevk42> "better late than never"?
436. # [11:53] <hsivonen> yeah.
437. # [11:53] <hsivonen> lunch first
438. # [11:53] * Parts: abarth (n=abarth@c-98-210-108-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("Leaving")
439. # [11:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
440. # [12:04] <Mrmil> May I ask for some light feedback? http://server.ebrana.cz/olda/_apps/html5/
441. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: looks pretty good
442. # [12:09] <gsnedders> PHP html5lib is slow. Really slow.
443. # [12:09] * gsnedders wonders if it is in an infinite loop
444. # [12:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: Wait until it finishes, and then you'll know it's not an infinite loop
445. # [12:11] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: Yay, thanks :) Now I have a question - imagine that the 3 service float boxes didn't have the annotation paragraph(s), what code would you use? headers wouldn't make sense anymore because there would be no text associated for them. Would you use ul li instead?
446. # [12:11] * gsnedders adds output of current line/column
447. # [12:12] <gsnedders> Over line 25k now… (86k lines, IIRC)
448. # [12:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: php-html5lib alone is 86k lines?
449. # [12:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, the spec
450. # [12:13] <jgraham> Oh I see
451. # [12:14] <gsnedders> line 38k
452. # [12:14] <gsnedders> OK, I think it probably will finish…
453. # [12:15] <gsnedders> 44k…
454. # [12:16] * gsnedders wonders how ever long it'll take with a profiler when it takes this long without
455. # [12:18] <gsnedders> I guess we take the prize for slowest impl. of HTML 5 parsing algorithm, at least :P
456. # [12:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: I bet I am slower
457. # [12:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Slowest automated impl.
458. # [12:19] * gsnedders would not be surprised if he was slower than jgraham
459. # [12:19] <gsnedders> line 60k!
460. # [12:20] <gsnedders> Uh, yeah, I'm bored now.
461. # [12:20] <annevk42> empirical evidence suggests I'm faster than jgraham and Hixie at getting correct answers :p
462. # [12:21] <jgraham> annevk42: Hey, that was a microbenchmark if ever I saw one
463. # [12:21] <jgraham> (although I would bet that you are still faster than me)
464. # [12:22] <gsnedders> Line 70k!
465. # [12:23] <Philip`> gsnedders: Using the entire spec for profiling seems like a pretty stupid idea :-p
466. # [12:23] <annevk42> you know, if I'm really bored one day I think I rather find something else to do than test my performance on the HTML5 parsing algorithm :p
467. # [12:23] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@222-152-170-20.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
468. # [12:24] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@BAE3eec.bae.pppool.de)
469. # [12:25] <gsnedders> Has any machine-run implementation taken over 15 minutes to parse the spec before?
470. # [12:25] * Quits: roc (n=roc@222-152-178-39.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
471. # [12:25] <Philip`> That's an easy record to beat
472. # [12:25] <Philip`> Start parsing, press ctrl+Z, wait 16 minutes, type "fg"
473. # [12:25] <gsnedders> (We're now under 10k lines to go!)
474. # [12:25] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@U2c0d.u.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
475. # [12:26] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
476. # [12:26] <Philip`> gsnedders: Sounds like your performance is slightly sub-linear
477. # [12:26] <gsnedders> Line 80k!
478. # [12:26] <gsnedders> No, I think it's linear.
479. # [12:27] <gsnedders> Just slow.
480. # [12:27] <Philip`> Hmm, good point, I suppose linear performance would be within the error bars of my IRC timestamp precision
481. # [12:28] <gsnedders> real 17m16.388s
482. # [12:28] <gsnedders> user 15m43.416s
483. # [12:28] <gsnedders> sys 0m12.038s
484. # [12:28] <Philip`> Is the output correct?
485. # [12:28] <gsnedders> Dunno.
486. # [12:28] <gsnedders> It just created a DOM, then deleted it :P
487. # [12:29] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
488. # [12:29] <gsnedders> ezyang: So, only around 16m of CPU time to parse the spec. I guess we're not that bad.
489. # [12:30] <Philip`> Compared to, like, one second in Java?
490. # [12:31] <hsivonen> 16 minutes to parse the HTML5 spec?
491. # [12:31] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yes.
492. # [12:32] <annevk42> whoa
493. # [12:32] * hsivonen goes back to manually inlining the read() method in the Java tokenizer and tweaking it not to write into the input buffer to allow speculative parsing in C++
494. # [12:32] * Quits: Hish (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de) (Remote closed the connection)
495. # [12:35] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
496. # [12:35] <jgraham> gsnedders: May I suggest profiling on <10% of the spec
497. # [12:35] <jgraham> Since that will probably contain enough interesting stuff to see where all the time is being taken
498. # [12:37] <hsivonen> are PHP arrays slow when used as arrays of ints?
499. # [12:37] <hsivonen> that is, in that case, do they perform like real arrays or like hashtables or like something else?
500. # [12:37] <gsnedders> hsivonen: We don't use them. Hashtables. And I don't think they're slow, just memory hogs.
501. # [12:37] <gsnedders> (We're talking around 70 bytes of overhead per value)
502. # [12:38] <thomaslee_> Why does TextMetrics have a width but no height?
503. # [12:38] <othermaciej> 70 bytes per value?
504. # [12:38] <othermaciej> seriously?
505. # [12:38] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Seriously.
506. # [12:38] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok. I was wondering how hard it would be to make the C++ translator to target PHP
507. # [12:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen: You don't want to, basically.
508. # [12:39] <Philip`> thomaslee_: Height of what? (Line height? Bounding box height? Em square height?)
509. # [12:39] <hsivonen> as I understand it, GWT compiler Java char[] into a JS array
510. # [12:39] <hsivonen> which seems reasonable performant compared to the DOM and stuff
511. # [12:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: is indexing into PHP strings O(1)?
512. # [12:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: A black box function (in an extension) which took a string and returned a DOMDocument (or something else if you created another object model) would probably be the only way to get sane perf
513. # [12:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yes
514. # [12:40] <gsnedders> Uh, doing it with a bit less debug stuff it did it in 1m44s
515. # [12:40] <Philip`> thomaslee_: There are lots of metrics that could be returned (which is why there's a whole TextMetrics structure instead of a single value), but currently it's just intended to address use cases like drawing labels on graphs
516. # [12:40] <thomaslee_> Philip`: line height I guess. I'm trying to center some text vertically within a known bounds.
517. # [12:41] <Philip`> thomaslee_: ... and not to address e.g. complex multi-line text layout, and so it doesn't expose any of the metrics you need for that
518. # [12:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Mainly because all arrays, no matter what type of the key, is just put in a hashtable, and AFIAK that has O(1) lookup
519. # [12:41] * zcorpan_ sends an email to pf basically repeating the ToC of html5 when they ask if there are any other areas with a11y concerns in html
520. # [12:41] <Philip`> thomaslee_: Can't you use ctx.textBaseline = 'middle' for that?
521. # [12:41] <thomaslee_> Philip`: was hoping to be able to use something like: (y + (cellHeight / 2) - (metrics.height/2))
522. # [12:42] <thomaslee_> Philip`: maybe? *reads docs*
523. # [12:42] <othermaciej> hsivonen: JS arrays are arrays
524. # [12:42] <gsnedders> I guess the main reason why it was so much slower was there were an extra couple million functions calls…
525. # [12:42] <Philip`> thomaslee_: (Don't know how widely that's implemented, but metrics.height isn't implemented at all either :-) )
526. # [12:42] <hsivonen> othermaciej: OK. I thought JS arrays had some whacko hashtable dualism, too
527. # [12:43] <othermaciej> they are also hashtables, but foo[n] where n is a smallish integer will be at an array access level of speed
528. # [12:43] <Philip`> thomaslee_: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#dom-context-2d-textbaseline
529. # [12:43] <othermaciej> at least in decent implementations
530. # [12:43] <othermaciej> but you can also set an arbitrary named property on an array
531. # [12:44] <gsnedders> hsivonen: SPLFixedArray which is in a disablable extension, and new in PHP 5.3, only allows integer keys and is a really array is actually slower from a reading POV, but quicker writing and a lot lower memory usage
532. # [12:44] <thomaslee_> Philip`: ah, so I can calculate the vertical centre and render the text using textBaseline middle
533. # [12:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the GWT-compiled version turns DOMStrings into UTF-16 code unit arrays and runs the tokenizer on those
534. # [12:44] <Philip`> thomaslee_: In theory, yes
535. # [12:44] <thomaslee_> let's see how it goes :)
536. # [12:44] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that I'm confused about
537. # [12:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: so if you put a very long string into the live DOM input field, you get a very long array internally
538. # [12:45] <othermaciej> it's not in general a good idea to use JS arrays of code point values instead of JS strings
539. # [12:45] <othermaciej> especially for stuff you got out of the DOM
540. # [12:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: That seems like it could be bad.
541. # [12:45] <othermaciej> strings will almost certainly have better perf
542. # [12:45] <thomaslee_> Philip`: you've saved the day again :P
543. # [12:46] <othermaciej> I wonder if Google actually uses GWT for any of their products
544. # [12:46] <jgraham> I seem to remember that V8 does some magic for array indicies > about 1000
545. # [12:46] <hsivonen> ideally, the JS version would use strings after I've made the input buffer read-only
546. # [12:46] <othermaciej> an array of code point values will be bigger and slower than a JS string
547. # [12:46] <jgraham> othermaciej: Isn't wave supposed to be written entirely with GWT?
548. # [12:46] <othermaciej> in near any implementation
549. # [12:46] <hsivonen> but that would entail some kind of Java-to-Java transformation before showing the code to GWT
550. # [12:46] <othermaciej> jgraham: dunno, I have not studied its internals
551. # [12:47] <hsivonen> using arrays makes sense here for both Java and C++ and the JS version is a side show currently
552. # [12:47] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I would think the sensible model is to use String on the Java side and strings on the JavaScript side
553. # [12:47] <othermaciej> instead of char arrays in either place
554. # [12:47] <othermaciej> oh
555. # [12:47] <thomaslee_> Philip`: out of curiosity, how exactly are you involved in HTML 5?
556. # [12:48] <othermaciej> if you actually need something mutable then yeah you can't use a JS string
557. # [12:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: given how java.io works and how SAX works, I want to have char[] in Java
558. # [12:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: also, the XML coercion magic will still write into the input buffer
559. # [12:48] <hsivonen> but the XML coercion stuff is unnecessary in Gecko
560. # [12:48] <hsivonen> where speculation will be necessary
561. # [12:49] <gsnedders> hmm, DOMNode::appendChild is by far the most expensive method/function
562. # [12:50] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
563. # [12:50] * Quits: ukai (n=ukai@220.109.219.244) (No route to host)
564. # [12:50] <Philip`> thomaslee_: I just hang out here and annoy people, and sometimes send feedback on the spec and write http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/ and stuff
565. # [12:50] <hsivonen> fwiw, in Gecko, DOM appends show up on profiles independently of the actual CSS box creation for those appends
566. # [12:51] <gsnedders> 46% of the time taken to parse the spec (which appears to be closer to 1m46s) is appendChild
567. # [12:51] <othermaciej> Gecko's DOM is pretty slow all around
568. # [12:51] <othermaciej> <http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/perf/dom/artificial/core/001.html>
569. # [12:51] <othermaciej> (as far as core DOM operations at least)
570. # [12:52] <gsnedders> (This is PHP's DOM, though)
571. # [12:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: Maybe you should parse not into a DOM, but into an XML string, and then use the presumably-fast built-in XML parser to construct the DOM
572. # [12:53] <othermaciej> (in retrospect though, that test can't distinguish slowness of the bindings glue from slowness of the core DOM op itself)
573. # [12:53] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the DOM is C, right?
574. # [12:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: That limits us to streamable output
575. # [12:53] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yes
576. # [12:53] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Gecko's DOM Core bindings glue is getting thinner
577. # [12:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: Just do that for well-formable fragments, not for entire documents
578. # [12:54] * Joins: Hish (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de)
579. # [12:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: You could have a custom tree implementation that could serialize to XML
580. # [12:54] <othermaciej> (WebKit nightly is nearly 7x as fast as recent Minefield on that test)
581. # [12:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: That'll be more expensive as that means function calls.
582. # [12:55] <hsivonen> aargh. I need to *think* about character reference tokenization again
583. # [12:55] <gsnedders> The function call overhead _has_ to be avoided.
584. # [12:55] <gsnedders> (Mainly by avoiding functions!)
585. # [12:56] <zcorpan_> i wonder why accessibility people put so much weight on a small set of features (alt, summary, etc) while completely ignoring other features (drag and drop, details, etc)
586. # [12:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: a no-regression policy, I think
587. # [12:57] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Maybe the small set of features is all that there's any chance of getting implemented in the next decade
588. # [12:57] <thomaslee_> Philip`: I see. Seems like you keep yourself busy :)
589. # [12:58] <zcorpan_> Philip`: some features have already been implemented and not received accessibility expert review
590. # [12:59] <othermaciej> it's not unreasonable to be more concerned about regressions, or what is perceived as such
591. # [12:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: Function call overhead is big enough for it actually be to worthwhile to have an if statement for A–Z and only call strtolower on characters we know it'll have an effect on
592. # [13:00] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: agreed, but i'm seeing something close to all-focus-on-regressions-and-completely-ignore-everything-else
593. # [13:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: Is that function call overhead, or strtolower overhead?
594. # [13:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: function call overhead more than strtolower overhead
595. # [13:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: I don't see how it would add more function calls. It would just mean replacing calls to the DOM API to calls to your own code
596. # [13:01] <jgraham> The big problem is that your own code might be even slower than the DOM API
597. # [13:01] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: their approach may seem reasonable to them
598. # [13:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: What if you say "if (char == 'A') char = 'a'; else if (char == 'B') ..."? :-)
599. # [13:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, instead of appendChild in C we have more function calls within our implementation of it
600. # [13:01] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Some people talked about accessibility of <canvas> too, which is a new thing and not a regression
601. # [13:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hence in total we end up with more function calls
602. # [13:02] <zcorpan_> Philip`: yes that's basically the exception to the rule
603. # [13:02] <zcorpan_> though i haven't seen that much discussion about <canvas>
604. # [13:02] * Joins: ukai (n=ukai@220.109.219.244)
605. # [13:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: I doubt that's quicker, haven't tried though
606. # [13:04] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host86-144-251-8.range86-144.btcentralplus.com)
607. # [13:04] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
608. # [13:04] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I think most of the discussion has been saying "<canvas> must be accessible", and the only concrete proposal is to make the spec say "authors must provide an accessible alternative to any <canvas> content" (which the spec already requires)
609. # [13:05] * gsnedders installs kdesdk4 on his old Power Mac G5 as that has more RAM than this laptop, hence runs KCachegrind with large profiles a lot better.
610. # [13:05] <zcorpan_> Philip`: indeed
611. # [13:05] <Dashiva> Philip`: And the proposal to make not doing so illegal :)
612. # [13:06] <Philip`> zcorpan_: so there hasn't been any interesting technical discussion on accessibility there
613. # [13:06] <annevk42> zcorpan_, there's been discussion about <video> and <audio> too
614. # [13:06] <zcorpan_> annevk2: true
615. # [13:06] <hsivonen> should mv_embed be considered ready for production use for enabling Ogg <video> in IE using Cortado or VLC plugin?
616. # [13:06] <Dashiva> There was some talk about making <canvas> contain a tree of elements that could be used to extract structure info
617. # [13:06] <Dashiva> Apparently some OSes do it like that
618. # [13:07] <Dashiva> But as I recall, that just reduced to authors who cared doing it, and those who didn't care still wouldn't do anything
619. # [13:07] <jgraham> I think in generaly the a12y people have benn concered with things that fit cleanly into familar WCAG categories
620. # [13:07] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@222-152-170-20.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
621. # [13:07] * Joins: roc (n=roc@222-152-170-20.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
622. # [13:08] * zcorpan_ wonders what a12y stands for
623. # [13:08] <zcorpan_> accessibillity?
624. # [13:09] <jgraham> Can I not spell/count/something
625. # [13:09] <jgraham> What a surprise
626. # [13:09] <Dashiva> Just remember that a11y is a name
627. # [13:09] <Dashiva> And l10n is an animal :P
628. # [13:10] <jgraham> What about l18n?
629. # [13:10] <jgraham> or whatever it is
630. # [13:10] <Dashiva> i18n?
631. # [13:10] <zcorpan_> i18n
632. # [13:10] <Dashiva> That's just weird
633. # [13:11] <jgraham> Oh yeah, I. That makes more sense
634. # [13:12] * jgraham can only remember simple facts like "it has 18 in it and is something about making software for funny foreign types"
635. # [13:13] <zcorpan_> like swedes?
636. # [13:13] <Dashiva> And then there's that m12n or whatnot which I never remember what is
637. # [13:13] * beowulf wonders what the real title of the film se7en is
638. # [13:14] <annevk42> Dashiva, l12n?
639. # [13:14] <Dashiva> No, mNumberLetter
640. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> m12n is modularization
641. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> xhtml2 wg term :)
642. # [13:14] <Dashiva> Aha
643. # [13:15] <Philip`> beowulf: Semicitizen?
644. # [13:15] <Philip`> beowulf: or Sempergreen?
645. # [13:15] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-10082a56f87c68df) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
646. # [13:15] <Dashiva> 7 would be the total number of letters, wouldn't it?
647. # [13:15] * zcorpan_ wonders whether Philip` has an English dictionary which he can query with regexps
648. # [13:15] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: no
649. # [13:16] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no)
650. # [13:16] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: the numbers of letters that are replaced with the number
651. # [13:16] <Philip`> zcorpan_: /usr/share/dict/words
652. # [13:16] <Philip`> (on any sensible OS)
653. # [13:17] <jgraham> http://www.morewords.com/ does what you want (probably)
654. # [13:17] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
655. # [13:17] <jgraham> (although it didn't find Philip`'s matches so it obviously sucks)
656. # [13:19] * Philip` first heard the word "l10n" when Ultima Online had a "Public L10n Test" server, but it was drawn in a handwritingy font so it looked very much like "Lion"
657. # [13:20] <Philip`> (UO's concept of "l10n" was to remove all the nice grammar in English, like adjectives in front of nouns for the names of magical weapons, and replace everything with boring-but-easy-to-localise phrases instead)
658. # [13:21] <annevk42> btw, for future reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeronym
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660. # [13:37] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-f2ba471fef9293be) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
661. # [13:40] <hsivonen> yay for ecj:
662. # [13:40] <hsivonen> 9392: goto 0
663. # [13:40] <hsivonen> 9395: goto 9277
664. # [13:40] <hsivonen> 9398: goto 0
665. # [13:41] <hsivonen> seems like a trivial optimization not to generate gotos like that
666. # [13:43] <Dashiva> zcorpan_: That doesn't seem to match most of the ones listed here?
667. # [13:44] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-145-212.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
668. # [13:45] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no) ("Ex-Chat")
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672. # [14:00] <zcorpan_> Dashiva: it does afaict
673. # [14:00] <zcorpan_> l10n - "ocalizatio".length == 10
674. # [14:01] <Dashiva> Hmm, indeed. I must be sleepy still.
675. # [14:06] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-23-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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678. # [14:17] <Dashiva> I wish lastweek would link some good music for once
679. # [14:18] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-da749d00a55f82f9)
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681. # [14:24] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-d1b509fc09d33809)
682. # [14:33] <Philip`> Dashiva: Maybe he'll take requests if you have something specific to recommend
683. # [14:36] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-112-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
684. # [14:43] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
685. # [14:45] <hsivonen> I wonder if anyone makes good old-fashioned Java bytecode optimizers anymore
686. # [14:45] <hsivonen> that'd flatten multilevel gotos and stuff
687. # [14:51] <roc> probably
688. # [14:51] <roc> I doubt they matter
689. # [14:51] <roc> the JIT takes all that apart anyway
690. # [14:52] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host86-144-251-8.range86-144.btcentralplus.com)
691. # [14:52] <hsivonen> roc: the thing is that the JIT doesn't kick in at all if a method grows over 8000 byte codes in size
692. # [14:53] <roc> well, that's dumb
693. # [14:53] <hsivonen> roc: Or I could document that if anyone uses this library, they have to configure their JIT in a special way
694. # [14:53] <roc> I guess you should avoid making such methods :-)
695. # [14:53] <hsivonen> roc: but most likely people would just ignore that and say that HTML5 is slow
696. # [14:54] <hsivonen> roc: as long as the JIT kicks in, one huge method of gotos JITs to faster code than a bunch of methods
697. # [14:57] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
698. # [14:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: Break it into to so something?
699. # [14:58] <jgraham> s/to/two/
700. # [14:58] <jgraham> s/so/or/
701. # [14:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: then I have to transfer local variables over
702. # [14:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: and using fields instead of local variable is very bad if you are trying to minimize the # of bytecodes
703. # [14:59] <hsivonen> But I may end up splitting some NCR stuff out
704. # [14:59] <hsivonen> Of course, if Hixie adds a new state for --!>, I'll have to make room for some more bytecodes...
705. # [15:00] <jgraham> Yeah, we really need at least --!> and preferably -- > to work
706. # [15:00] <jgraham> So I would start clearing room :)
707. # [15:02] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess at some point there's no point in counting byte codes and I should just document that HotSpot has a lame magic limit and how to disable the limit
708. # [15:03] <hsivonen> limits like that feel really applet-ish
709. # [15:03] <hsivonen> who'd want the JIT not to do its thing on a server?
710. # [15:07] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
711. # [15:07] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
712. # [15:08] <Philip`> Maybe someone who doesn't want their server to crash because it's trying to JIT a million-bytecode method all at once?
713. # [15:09] * Quits: grimboy_ (n=grimboy@78-86-152-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
714. # [15:12] <hsivonen> so many constrains: validation needs, Java library needs, speculative parsing in C++, JIT limits...
715. # [15:14] * Quits: allanmac (n=allanmac@dsl092-075-022.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net) ("Leaving.")
716. # [15:14] <Philip`> I guess there's also the constraint of being a single codebase, rather than one for each different use
717. # [15:14] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
718. # [15:18] <hsivonen> the 8000 bytecode limit is really the most annoying constraint
719. # [15:18] <hsivonen> I'm very close to giving up and fixing it in documentation
720. # [15:18] <hsivonen> "use this incantation to get a 10x speedup"
721. # [15:19] <roc> JVM methods can't be more than 64k bytes of bytecodes
722. # [15:19] <hsivonen> roc: the main tokenization loop is currently at 8701 bytecodes, so it's not too near that limit
723. # [15:20] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
724. # [15:20] <hsivonen> oh, yeah, CRLF is hugely annoying, too. a lot of the extra bytecode fat is due to CRLF handling
725. # [15:20] <roc> I once wrote a bytecode instrumentation tool that had the ability to take apart methods grew to over 64K bytes and automatically partition them into smaller methods
726. # [15:20] <roc> without worrying too much about performance of course
727. # [15:21] <heycam> roc, can you commit that to rhino's codebase please? :)
728. # [15:21] <heycam> i run in to it from time to time
729. # [15:22] <heycam> it'd be nice not to just tell it to use interpreted mode unconditionally in advance, in those situations
730. # [15:22] <heycam> oops, please ignore the smiley, i'm trying to cut back
731. # [15:22] <hsivonen> (it seems that major design decisions in Antlr have been made due to the 8000 bytecode limit)
732. # [15:26] <hsivonen> I wonder if dalvik and whatever AppEngine uses have this kind of magic limits
733. # [15:27] <heycam> while trying to optimise some of rhino's codegen once, i noticed it was generating a 4000 byte method that was a massive switch that just returned false from every branch
734. # [15:27] <heycam> (true, that wasn't compilation of js to java, and just a generated method to support compiled js, but still... seemd a bit excessive)
735. # [15:32] * Quits: mgrdcm_ (n=mgrdcm@69.246.244.191)
736. # [15:34] <ezyang> gsnedders: What was the next most expensive function call after appendChild()?
737. # [15:35] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
738. # [15:35] <gsnedders> uh, dunno.
739. # [15:35] <ezyang> Wait, you didn't profile it?
740. # [15:35] <gsnedders> Yes, I did.
741. # [15:35] <ezyang> Ok
742. # [15:35] <gsnedders> I can't remember what the profile said :P
743. # [15:36] <ezyang> You should post that up somewhere public
744. # [15:36] <gsnedders> (It kinda crashes my laptop opening it in KCachegrind though as it eats so much memory.)
745. # [15:37] <gsnedders> (So I'm installing KCachegrind on my old Power Mac G5 which has more memory.)
746. # [15:37] <ezyang> Yeah, swapping can be pretty painful
747. # [15:37] <ezyang> How big is the profile file?
748. # [15:38] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
749. # [15:38] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
750. # [15:38] <gsnedders> It got to 600MB before I killed php stopping it becoming bigger.
751. # [15:38] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Client Quit)
752. # [15:38] <ezyang> Hmm.
753. # [15:38] <ezyang> My suggestion is to take a smaller HTML file and use that
754. # [15:38] <gsnedders> (And KCachegrind tends to use double the size of the input when loading.)
755. # [15:38] <gsnedders> That's boring! :P
756. # [15:39] <ezyang> If html5lib is not pathological, it should still be representative
757. # [15:39] <ezyang> Anyway, my current ordering of priorities is: 1. Clean up the APIs, 2. Kick out a release, 3. Optimize the hell out of it
758. # [15:40] <ezyang> Also, I start working today, so I won't have as much time to work on html5lib
759. # [15:41] <gsnedders> on my blog the profile is totally different
760. # [15:41] <ezyang> Oh?
761. # [15:41] <gsnedders> HTML5_Tokenizer::parse is slowest
762. # [15:41] <ezyang> Is this total runtime or runtime within?
763. # [15:41] <gsnedders> Just within it.
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766. # [15:42] <gsnedders> TreeConstructor::emitToken is next slowest
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769. # [15:42] <ezyang> Well, duh
770. # [15:42] <gsnedders> then consumeCharacterReference
771. # [15:42] <ezyang> Those are our two big honking switch cases
772. # [15:42] <gsnedders> Then Tokenizer::emitToken
773. # [15:42] <ezyang> consumeCharacterReference isn't surprising either
774. # [15:42] <gsnedders> then InputStream::charsUntil
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776. # [15:43] <ezyang> These are all fairly obvious, and non-trivial to fix, unfortunately
777. # [15:43] <ezyang> I'll run the profiler myself (I tend to favor Wikipedia pages) and see what I can do, after (1) and (2) are done
778. # [15:43] * gsnedders wonders what a decent medium sized page is
779. # [15:44] * gsnedders does from a non-bias POV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom
780. # [15:45] * Parts: allanmac (n=allanmac@dsl017-091-222.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
781. # [15:46] <gsnedders> appendChild is 8th most expensive there
782. # [15:47] <gsnedders> I think we could remove our own appendChild and just use DOMNode::normalize
783. # [15:48] <Philip`> gsnedders: The mean page size is something like 20KB
784. # [15:48] <Philip`> (in my samples)
785. # [15:54] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
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787. # [15:55] <gsnedders> ezyang: Where do you want the call for parsing to actually go?
788. # [15:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: Start: Go to "X-UA-Compatible <meta>?". - you've forgotten to curlify the quotes there
789. # [15:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
790. # [15:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixed
791. # [15:57] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
792. # [16:00] <gsnedders> ezyang: What are these "godawful libxml bugs"?
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794. # [16:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: IE=6 is the same as IE=5
795. # [16:00] <zcorpan> i.e. quirks mode
796. # [16:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. (that'll take a bit more time to update)
797. # [16:01] <annevk42> really? that's somewhat unexpected
798. # [16:02] * jgraham wonders how long annevk42 will be known as "Anna" for in the html5lib wiki
799. # [16:02] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
800. # [16:02] <annevk42> jgraham, considering how often that wiki is updated, pretty long
801. # [16:02] <jgraham> That page was only created yesterday or so though
802. # [16:03] <zcorpan> annevk2: well i just tested it. it wasn't what i expected, either
803. # [16:03] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
804. # [16:03] * jgraham is not sure why it is so important to know who the project is done by rather than ho to use it
805. # [16:04] <annevk42> ah, i guess that must be from the person I added to the project
806. # [16:04] <annevk42> he said he was going to work on documentation
807. # [16:04] <beowulf> jgraham: babes might be interested
808. # [16:07] * gsnedders laughs, and shakes his head
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812. # [16:11] <annevk42> "formal W3C Note" hmm
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818. # [16:25] <zcorpan> re http://www.w3.org/mid/4A23E22C.2010502@gmx.de - i thought there were more issues, like what to do with whitespace and lone %
819. # [16:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: forgetting a ">" of an end tag results in lots of messages
820. # [16:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: see e.g. http://www.webforum.nu/showthread.php?t=174764
821. # [16:29] <zcorpan> <p><a href="http://www.djurssommerland.dk/">Djurs sommarland</a är något man inte får missa om man ...
822. # [16:30] <zcorpan> on a start tag it's even worse
823. # [16:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe if a tag has an illegal attribute, silence all other illegal attribute messages and duplicate attributes messages for that tag
824. # [16:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also, it seems pointless to emit any other messages than "attributes on end tag" for end tags
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826. # [16:40] <zcorpan> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=579
827. # [16:44] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
828. # [16:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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832. # [17:01] <hsivonen> I wonder why Flickr slideshows are Flash
833. # [17:01] <hsivonen> is it all because of the ability to go full-screen?
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845. # [17:13] <jgraham> Gah, the sanitizer in html5lib.filters.sanitizer seems to be broken
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852. # [17:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: It works with the video, of course
853. # [17:31] <jgraham> But it would be a neat project to do a flickr slideshow viewer in html5
854. # [17:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: they had Flash slideshows long before video
855. # [17:32] <hsivonen> but it would be cool if Flickr went Flashless
856. # [17:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: I know. But at the moment it seems like a good reason not to use HTML
857. # [17:34] <jgraham> The nice thing about a flashless slideshow is that I would get better colours in browsers that support embedded colour profiles
858. # [17:34] <zcorpan> hmm, the <script src>//documentation</script> abnf only supports LF and multiline comments can't contain stars or slashes *at all* if i'm reading it correctly
859. # [17:34] <hsivonen> support for color profiles doesn't necessarily mean better color :-/
860. # [17:35] <hsivonen> a lot of color management is GIGO, unfortunately
861. # [17:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: For photography it generally means better colour
862. # [17:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: if you actually have right profiles
863. # [17:36] <hsivonen> throughout the workflow
864. # [17:36] <jgraham> Since a large fraction of the people have reasonably well calibrated monitors and are using profile-aware applications like Lightroom
865. # [17:36] <jgraham> (and photoshop)
866. # [17:40] <jgraham> e.g. compare http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgraham/3567837536/sizes/l/ in various browsers
867. # [17:40] * gsnedders wonders what 15 minute walk is
868. # [17:41] <jgraham> (although I actually think that I made some mistakes with the processing of that in terms of aesthetic judgement, but that's not really the point)
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870. # [17:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: if Bibbi said 15 minutes walk, what sorta distance do you think she'd mean?
871. # [17:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: I guess the sort of distance that you could walk in 15 minutes
872. # [17:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do you have an address or anything?
873. # [17:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: No
874. # [17:43] <gsnedders> Just, "Close to the office (about 15 minutes walk)"
875. # [17:43] <jgraham> Well that could be anywhere but I guess within 1km or so
876. # [17:44] <zcorpan> i have about 15 minutes walk to the office
877. # [17:44] <jgraham> me too
878. # [17:44] <gsnedders> 15 minutes at what speed for a start :P
879. # [17:44] <zcorpan> walking speed of course
880. # [17:44] <jgraham> but we live at pi/2 radians from each other
881. # [17:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: I guess normal walking speed is about 2.5 miles/hour
882. # [17:45] <jgraham> so 15minutes walk is about 5/8 of a mile. Or 1km
883. # [17:45] <jgraham> Which is what I said before
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885. # [17:47] * gsnedders works out basically where 1km away from the centre is
886. # [17:47] <gsnedders> (Or rather, from where the office is)
887. # [17:48] * gsnedders notes Google Maps puts the office right in the middle of Centrum Ring, which I kinda doubt :P
888. # [17:48] <zcorpan> if (window.widget.harharhar)
889. # [17:50] * hsivonen notes that Chrome doesn't show the video thumbnails in the YouTube demo
890. # [17:53] * zcorpan notes that the youtube demo uses <div><h1> instead of <details><legend>
891. # [17:54] <zcorpan> the document outline will be shorter if they migrate to <details>
892. # [17:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: According to http://maps.forum.nu/gm_sensitive_circle2.html I live about 1.5km from the office. But I guess it takes a little more than 15 minutes for me to get in
893. # [18:00] * gsnedders needs to work out when he'll leave Linköping
894. # [18:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: It is like Hotel California
895. # [18:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: ?
896. # [18:01] <gsnedders> I think not the day after I finish, as the only flight that day is a 6:30am
897. # [18:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just a throwaway pop-culture reference
898. # [18:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: Ah. Pop-culture. That's the problem :P
899. # [18:03] <gsnedders> Wait, what…
900. # [18:03] <gsnedders> Flights from Stockholm (Skavasta) to Berlin (Schönefeld) for 55SEK!?
901. # [18:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: Ryanair?
902. # [18:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah
903. # [18:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: Check the "Taxes" and "Fees"
904. # [18:04] <gsnedders> Taxes and Fees it claims to be 0.
905. # [18:04] <gsnedders> That's what is surprising me so much
906. # [18:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh you found one of those flights. In that case you will only have to pay for luggage, booking fee, etc.
907. # [18:05] <gsnedders> Every day apart from Friday and Sunday
908. # [18:05] <gsnedders> (On the Sunday it is 314.78 SEK)
909. # [18:06] * gsnedders probably won't get a plane ticket from Berlin to Britain yet, as he doesn't know whether he'll be going to London or to home…
910. # [18:12] <gsnedders> WTF?
911. # [18:12] <gsnedders> Flights for £0.00 (excluding taxes/fees)
912. # [18:13] <gsnedders> At 6am, though :P
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915. # [18:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: 0 excluding taxes/fees == about 50GBP all told, usually
916. # [18:20] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
917. # [18:20] <gsnedders> It was more than that
918. # [18:20] <gsnedders> But I don't care.
919. # [18:20] * gsnedders is going for a flight at a more reasonable time of day :P
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922. # [18:33] * jgraham has paid an extrodinary amount of money for the last few sets of Ryanair flights he has booked
923. # [18:34] <jgraham> Because I don't tend to book early enough and because they are not nearly as cheap as they make out
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969. # [21:35] <annevk42> how does http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/124 demonstrate margin collapsing?
970. # [21:35] <annevk42> oh, zcorpan is not here
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972. # [21:43] * Joins: allanmac (n=allanmac@dsl017-091-222.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
973. # [21:43] <Hixie> aaah, the epitomy of process over progress: http://www.w3.org/mid/4A2428A2.6080205@gmx.de
974. # [21:46] * Joins: webben (n=benh@79-67-240-33.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
975. # [21:46] <Dashiva> But what if about:blank totally changes meaning during the process? ;)
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977. # [21:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: s/y/e/
978. # [21:50] <Hixie> so it seems
979. # [21:50] <Hixie> thanks
980. # [21:50] <Hixie> Dashiva: exactly
981. # [21:51] * gsnedders fixes a test case in php html5lib by fixing the test handler to actually follow the test format :P
982. # [21:51] <annevk42> Hixie, yeah :/
983. # [21:51] <annevk42> Hixie, though if they think it really matters maybe they should leave the value space up to some other RFC...
984. # [21:52] * annevk42 wonders who'll write all of those
985. # [21:52] <Hixie> i have faith that adam will do the right thing
986. # [21:52] <annevk42> the right thing was just made harder
987. # [21:53] * annevk42 kind of like about:noreferrer
988. # [21:53] <annevk42> likes*
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993. # [22:16] * jgraham wonders who the people are that go "oh no that's just a draft standard I can't possibly implement the well defined thing that I need for interoperability"
994. # [22:19] <tantek> jgraham, Perhaps those that then must maintain back/bug-ward compatibility with their implementation of the draft standard for 3+ years for enterprise users and others that don't upgrade implementations very often.
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997. # [22:22] <jgraham> tantek: In the case where the draft is really unstable that seems reasonable. But in the case of e.g. about: it's fixed by legacy anyway
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1000. # [22:23] <Hixie> i like larry's observation that we don't understand the ietf process given how he doesn't understand the whatwg process :-)
1001. # [22:23] <tantek> jgraham, agreed. when a draft standard is simply documenting existing (hopefully widely known) interoperable behavior, the excuse of "draft" does not hold much weight.
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1005. # [22:29] <annevk42> afaict Larry is wrong too
1006. # [22:29] <annevk42> tools.ietf.org is generally considered to be the space of official IETF documents
1007. # [22:29] <annevk42> moreover, I believe there's no documented guarantee that the links there won't break either
1008. # [22:29] <annevk42> is not generally* duh
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1013. # [22:45] <expensivelesbian> Hello all, just a random question - if one wanted to write some sort of "visualiser" (VU meters, graphical EQ bars and the like), taking the output of an <audio> element, would this be possible currently, with HTML5 + JavaScript? If this question is off topic, someone please say nicely and I'll scurry off elsewhere
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1015. # [22:46] <annevk42> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0036.html really, what's the obsession with introducing versioning? is it some kind of nirvana?
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1019. # [22:48] <annevk42> expensivelesbian, it's not off-topic, but I don't think it's possible either currently
1020. # [22:48] <roc> it's not possible
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1023. # [22:48] <annevk42> expensivelesbian, unless you skip the <audio> element and parse the stream directly in ECMAScript, but besides that being hard you might run into some limitations as well (e.g. no real byte stream representation)
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1025. # [22:51] <expensivelesbian> ok, thanks for the answers. I'll have a ponder on this
1026. # [22:53] <annevk42> I guess due to <canvas> you can do a lot more with <video>
1027. # [22:53] <annevk42> but then audio manipulation is prolly much harder
1028. # [22:54] <expensivelesbian> well, it was that bounding boxes demo got me thinking, "there must be something _like_ that for poor old neglected <audio>"
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1030. # [22:58] <annevk42> expensivelesbian, sorry
1031. # [22:58] <annevk42> expensivelesbian, there have been discussions, but nothing concrete yet
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1034. # [23:07] <annevk42> quotes in http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/BarCamp-San-Diego-5/ are nice -- navigation within that presentation is a bitch though, what's back?
1035. # [23:22] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
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1039. # [23:34] <hober> I don't think I got around to implementing back...
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1042. # [23:35] <hober> I should really make a print stylesheet too..
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The end :)