/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-03 / end

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22. # [00:43] <Dashiva> "XML parsing is really easy. It is rather trivial to write an XML parser."
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33. # [01:13] * gsnedders finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2009AprJun/0010.html
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40. # [01:49] <heycam> Hixie, i do plan to finish that testing
41. # [01:49] <heycam> (and fix the tests up)
42. # [01:50] <heycam> i'll have a small amount of time after the svg wg's f2f next week that i'll be working on webidl stuff
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48. # [02:16] * gsnedders laughs at HTML 5 now calling itself a "Draft Standard"
49. # [02:16] <Hixie> i was so happy to hear that html5 was a standard
50. # [02:16] <Hixie> i always thought that we were supposed to not call w3c things standards
51. # [02:16] <gsnedders> Me too.
52. # [02:17] * gsnedders still agrees with you, and just thinks it is more W3C fucked-up-ness
53. # [02:17] <gsnedders> Uh, the spec is loading really slowly here.
54. # [02:17] <gsnedders> Like 4KB/s
55. # [02:18] <gsnedders> Do we have any idea about implementations for iframe@sandbox?
56. # [02:18] <Hixie> wfm
57. # [02:18] <Hixie> no
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61. # [02:35] <gsnedders> Oh, just my local net is busy
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81. # [03:31] <heycam> hi, what in the spec determines how external javascript encoding is determined?
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86. # [03:43] <Hixie> heycam: html5 has some stuff for how to do it for <script>
87. # [03:43] <Dashiva> heycam: I believe "Running a script" in 4.3.1 the script element
88. # [03:45] <heycam> ok thanks
89. # [03:46] <heycam> so i'm wondering if/how the processing of scripts labelled as text/javascript differs from what rfc 4329 says to do with them
90. # [03:48] <heycam> this is the question i'm trying to answer: "Why is HTML5 making the default be text/javascript rather than application/ecmascript?"
91. # [03:48] <Dashiva> There's a bug for that
92. # [03:49] <heycam> yeah, but i don't remember a clear reason being given
93. # [03:49] <heycam> i'll look it up again
94. # [03:50] <Hixie> the type doesn't matter to the implementations
95. # [03:50] <Hixie> the implementations completely ignore the type part of the content-type
96. # [03:50] <Hixie> you could have image/png and it'd work as well
97. # [03:50] <Hixie> at least over the wire
98. # [03:50] <Hixie> the type="" attribute is a different matter
99. # [03:50] <Hixie> but all this is academic
100. # [03:50] <heycam> ah, i'm asking about the type="" attribute
101. # [03:50] <Hixie> the only reason that i use text/javascript instead of application/ecmascript is that application/ecmascript is stupid
102. # [03:51] <Hixie> everyone calls it text/javascript
103. # [03:53] <heycam> i guess what i want to know is: how would things break if you normatively referenced rfc 4329 for the processing of <script type=text/javascript> and <script type=application/ecmascript>, and for if you changed the default type of <script> with no type="" to be application/ecmascript
104. # [03:53] <Hixie> what does rfc4329 say that can be referenced?
105. # [03:53] <Hixie> i didn't realise it defined anything useful other than the type names
106. # [03:54] <heycam> it gives some requirements on encoding detection / error reporting, i think
107. # [03:54] <Hixie> s/useful/usable/, i guess, given my stance on the names :-)
108. # [03:54] <Hixie> oh?
109. # [03:54] <heycam> i thought so
110. # [03:54] * Hixie looks
111. # [03:54] <heycam> but i could be wrong, i just skimmed
112. # [03:54] <heycam> i remember implementing distinct codepaths for text/javascript and application/ecmascript in batik, a while ago, based on what rfc 4329 said
113. # [03:55] <Hixie> rfc4329 is misleading then
114. # [03:56] <heycam> i.e., doesn't describe reality?
115. # [03:56] <Hixie> uh yeah, having now looked at this seems highly in variance with implemented practice
116. # [03:56] <heycam> ok
117. # [03:56] <Dashiva> "Use of the "text" top-level type for this kind of content is known to be problematic."
118. # [03:57] <Dashiva> What is the reason here? I'm not in the know.
119. # [03:57] <heycam> default us-ascii encoding?
120. # [03:57] <Hixie> or iso-8859-1 depending on which spec you read
121. # [03:57] <Dashiva> Is that it?
122. # [03:57] <Hixie> (it's nonsense)
123. # [03:57] <Hixie> i believe so
124. # [03:57] <Hixie> there is no real problem
125. # [03:58] <heycam> well i see that html5 maps us-ascii to windows-1252
126. # [03:58] <Hixie> the problem is a persistent myth promulgated by a variety of spec writers
127. # [03:59] <Dashiva> Hmm, the RFC claims charset defaults to UTF-8
128. # [03:59] <Dashiva> That's not really true, is it?
129. # [03:59] <Hixie> no
130. # [03:59] <Hixie> i would basically ignore 4329 altogether
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132. # [04:00] <heycam> i'd like concrete things that rfc 4329 conflicts with to answer the question about why it uses text/javascript and doesn't reference that rfc, if you could
133. # [04:00] <heycam> s/why it/why html5/
134. # [04:00] <Hixie> search for 4329 in html5
135. # [04:01] <heycam> yep i did that
136. # [04:01] <heycam> there's just that one note
137. # [04:01] <Hixie> right
138. # [04:01] <Hixie> that's the reason for why it uses text/javascript
139. # [04:01] <Hixie> the reason it doesn't refer to the charset algorithm is the charset algorithm is wrong
140. # [04:01] <Hixie> e.g. it ignore charset="" on <script>
141. # [04:02] <Hixie> doesn't take into account the refering document's charset
142. # [04:02] <Hixie> does support UTF-32
143. # [04:02] <Hixie> and suggests that the type is relevant
144. # [04:02] <Dashiva> Hmm, it defers to XML Media Types on the processing. That's why text/ and application/ are different
145. # [04:03] <Hixie> 3023
146. # [04:03] <Hixie> that's where a lot of this nonsense started
147. # [04:03] <Hixie> regarding text/ vs application/
148. # [04:03] <heycam> that text/javascript is more commonly used might be a reason to refer to the language as "text/javascript", but that doesn't have anything to do with requirements on how to process script, right?
149. # [04:03] <Hixie> right
150. # [04:03] <heycam> the encoding/charset stuff sounds like the kind of answer i want
151. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> wakaba: you around?
152. # [04:04] <heycam> "RFC 4329 requires <script type=text/javascript> to be processed like A, but in reality browsers need to be processed like B."
153. # [04:04] * Hixie should point out that he's not a big fan of tiny specs that over-solve non-problems, like 4329
154. # [04:04] <heycam> s/browsers need to be/browsers need to process it/
155. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> wakaba: if/when you have time, please try a traceroute to svn8.cvsdude.com and let me know what you get
156. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> wakaba: I'm on my emobile connection and can't get any route to it
157. # [04:05] <Hixie> heycam: did this come up in the svgwg?
158. # [04:05] <heycam> the quoted question at the top did, yes
159. # [04:06] <Hixie> the only reason i'm making the default text/ instead of application/ is that there's no reason to introduce application/ and everyone calls it text/
160. # [04:06] <Hixie> i'm not doing it because of charsets
161. # [04:06] <heycam> hmm ok
162. # [04:06] <Hixie> (and that is already mentioned in the spec)
163. # [04:06] <heycam> i guess the more pertinent question then is why you don't normatively reference rfc 4329
164. # [04:07] <heycam> to which the answer is the charset/encoding stuff?
165. # [04:07] <Hixie> yeah
166. # [04:07] <Hixie> though nobody other than you has asked that :-)
167. # [04:07] <Hixie> asked me that, anyway
168. # [04:07] <heycam> didn't jreschke?
169. # [04:07] <Hixie> did he?
170. # [04:07] <heycam> i thought that's what that bugzilla bug was
171. # [04:07] <Hixie> i thought he spoke of the type name only
172. # [04:07] <heycam> but i couldn't find it
173. # [04:07] <heycam> ah ok
174. # [04:08] <heycam> processing for all the many different media types to identify javascript are handled the same in html5, yes?
175. # [04:08] <Hixie> for type="", language="", or Content-Type: ?
176. # [04:09] <heycam> type=""
177. # [04:09] <heycam> (you've said Content-Type is ignored, right (except for its charset parameter)?)
178. # [04:10] <Hixie> let's see... (for type...)
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182. # [04:12] <Hixie> heycam: the only difference appears to be the one listed here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#support-the-scripting-language
183. # [04:13] <heycam> the e4x bit?
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185. # [04:18] <Hixie> yeah
186. # [04:18] <heycam> is this right?: <script src=""> without a type="" attribute that references a resource served as whatever media type, without a charset parameter, will be decoded using the referencing html document's encoding
187. # [04:19] <heycam> (also if the resource doesn't have a BOM)
188. # [04:19] <Dashiva> Yes
189. # [04:19] <Dashiva> Although you probably meant without a charset attribute?
190. # [04:20] <heycam> oh i meant charset parameter on the Content-Type
191. # [04:20] <heycam> (but also without a charset="" on the <script>)
192. # [04:20] <heycam> or does that charset parameter on the Content-Type not do anything either?
193. # [04:20] <Dashiva> Yeah, because type doesn't really enter into it
194. # [04:20] <Dashiva> It does
195. # [04:21] * olliej_ is now known as olliej
196. # [04:21] <heycam> ah i see what you mean
197. # [04:21] <heycam> the charset parameter in the type="" is ignored, it's the charset="" attribute that makes a difference
198. # [04:22] <heycam> ok so that's a good concrete answer to the question of why rfc 4329 isn't normatively referenced
199. # [04:22] <heycam> thanks
200. # [04:23] <heycam> this is the kind of thing that it's hard to get a sense of quickly looking at the algorithms
201. # [04:24] <heycam> informative, declarative text that summarises how encoding of an external script is determined would have been handy to answer my question, i think
202. # [04:25] <Dashiva> It would be nice
203. # [04:25] <jruderman> does "unknown parameters" in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#support-the-scripting-language refer to things like ;e4x=1 and ;version= ?
204. # [04:25] <Dashiva> But when Hixie writes an algorithm it usually means he wasn't able to define things neatly declaratively
205. # [04:26] <heycam> try harder, Hixie, gosh!
206. # [04:26] <heycam> i don't mind even if the declarative informative parts aren't completely accurate
207. # [04:26] * ezyang finally got around to running kcachegrind on profiler output of html5lib php
208. # [04:26] <heycam> and defer to the algorithm for details
209. # [04:27] <heycam> but i guess that could be misleading for people, and might encourage them not to look into the details in the algorithm
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211. # [04:30] <Hixie> heycam: it's not clear such text is a good idea, since because it would be simpler than the real text, people would use it instead of the real text
212. # [04:31] <heycam> yes i could understand that
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214. # [04:31] <Hixie> jruderman: it means parameters that the browser doesn't know
215. # [04:31] <Hixie> heycam: oh, you just said that. nevermind :-)
216. # [04:31] <Hixie> heycam: the other problem is that i don't know which parts of the spec people will want these summaries for
217. # [04:32] <heycam> right
218. # [04:32] <Hixie> heycam: and doing it for every little thing would double the size of the spec
219. # [04:32] <jruderman> Hixie: i wasn't sure what "parameters" meant in that context
220. # [04:32] <Hixie> jruderman: MIME parameters
221. # [04:32] <jruderman> i was afraid that would be the answer ;)
222. # [04:32] <Hixie> jruderman: see the MIME spec for details :-)
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224. # [04:46] <ezyang> Bottom line is, 4 seconds to parse a 2MB document is not bad.
225. # [04:47] <ezyang> I don't think I'm going to waste too much time optimizing the hell out of it.
226. # [04:47] <ezyang> A C implementation is generally useful, but lots of work.
227. # [04:47] <ezyang> (this is to gsnedders)
228. # [04:52] <Hixie> "I think, in fact, that if I may pose myself as not belonging to the hegemony, then I am one of the least conspirational persons of that lot - too little, perhaps."
229. # [04:52] <Hixie> i am going to have to frame that and print it
230. # [04:52] <Hixie> er, print it then frame it
231. # [04:58] <gavin_> paranoid about not being paranoid enough?
232. # [05:04] <Hixie> and using the word "hegemony" in the same sentence as claiming to not be conspirational
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235. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> I wonder if some people read their mailing-list postings aloud to themselves before sending them
236. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> while looking in the mirror
237. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> I mean people other than me
238. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> or if they wink at themselves while doing so
239. # [05:18] * ezyang wink wink
240. # [05:18] * ezyang wink wink wink if you know what I mean
241. # [05:18] <ezyang> wink wink
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253. # [06:11] <Hixie> haha, awesome
254. # [06:11] <Hixie> unrelated people are referring to html5 as a "draft standard" now: http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71518&mode=linearplus
255. # [06:13] <hobo> well thats good news
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257. # [06:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: that's what I've always called it when I talk about it...
258. # [06:14] <othermaciej> but it's nice that I can be pedantically correct now when I say that
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261. # [06:20] * ojan is now known as ojanLunch
262. # [06:36] <shepazu> Hixie: did it escape your attention that Google was calling HTML5 a standard at Google I/O?
263. # [06:36] <Hixie> no, but google are hardly "unrelated" :-)
264. # [06:36] <othermaciej> shepazu: calling it a "draft standard" is definitely an improvement
265. # [06:36] <shepazu> people have always used the term "standard" pretty loosely...
266. # [06:36] <othermaciej> that is what I called it in my Google I/O talk
267. # [06:37] <Hixie> it was in fact google's calling it a standard that cause plh to complain, which caused me to update the spec's title to use the word "standard"
268. # [06:37] <othermaciej> Google also claimed many things are part of HTML5 which are actually now separate specs
269. # [06:37] <shepazu> and that were never part of HTML5, like Geolocation API
270. # [06:37] <othermaciej> I've advised potential Apple presenters to try to be more precise
271. # [06:37] <shepazu> Hixie: you may have misunderstood... PLH wasn't complaining about the word, just noting that it's not yet done
272. # [06:38] <othermaciej> calling it a standard without being clear about the draft status is incorrect
273. # [06:38] <othermaciej> and potentially misleading
274. # [06:38] <shepazu> the word really only matters for the pedantic, or when it actually matters to make a distinction
275. # [06:38] <Hixie> shepazu: yes, i understand that (see the comments on the blog post for details)
276. # [06:39] <othermaciej> PLH had a point, although if I were him, I would focus less on that and more on the extremely positive PR being generated for a W3C draft
277. # [06:39] <shepazu> othermaciej: yes, I think that was what PLH was pointing out... that it's still a draft
278. # [06:39] * hdh is now known as makfa-hdh
279. # [06:39] <othermaciej> like if you look at this: http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/05/_watching_the_google_io.html
280. # [06:40] <shepazu> I think that PLH's post was optimistic on the whole... it told people how to get involved, said that it was still ongoing, and talked about the various related activities
281. # [06:40] <othermaciej> there's about 1.5 sentences in the whole thing that seem happy about HTML5 getting a positive reception
282. # [06:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: the reason google people refer to all this as "html5" is that there's no other catchphrase for it, btw, an issue that i brought up months ago in this channel
283. # [06:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: not sure what to do about it
284. # [06:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: until we have another marketable term, google'll probably continue calling it all "html5"
285. # [06:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: because people respond to that term
286. # [06:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think Apple will probably end up riding the catchphrase wave, though maybe be clear that it includes more than just the HTML 5.0 draft standard
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288. # [06:41] <shepazu> there's nothing wrong with marketing terminology, and there's nothing wrong with being more precise, depending on the audience
289. # [06:41] <othermaciej> though maybe with the synchronicity of HTML 5 and ES5, we could call the whole current generation of Web standards "Web 5.0"
290. # [06:41] <othermaciej> (see, this is why I'm not in marketing)
291. # [06:41] * makfa-hdh is now known as hdh
292. # [06:41] <shepazu> othermaciej: you, sir, are correct :)
293. # [06:41] <Hixie> shepazu: i think there _is_ something wrong with calling, e.g. the geolocation spec "HTML5"
294. # [06:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes, i agree that "Web 5.0" is what we should use
295. # [06:42] <shepazu> Hixie: and that's why you weren't up on stage :)
296. # [06:42] <shepazu> I think that cat's out of the bag
297. # [06:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: if I actually thought that was a good term I could probably put it in the buzz-vocabulary
298. # [06:42] <Hixie> no, i wasn't on stage because i refused because i didn't want to appear vendor-biased :-)
299. # [06:42] <othermaciej> all it would take is one WebKit blog post plus get some key apple folks to talk about it
300. # [06:43] <othermaciej> but I'm not sure "Web 5.0" is actually good
301. # [06:43] <shepazu> fwiw, I think "Web 5.0" is lame
302. # [06:43] <othermaciej> it's not bad in itself, but it will remind people of "Web 2.0" and "web 3.0"
303. # [06:43] <shepazu> it's too Web 2.0
304. # [06:43] <shepazu> yes
305. # [06:43] <Hixie> well, i'm fine with whatever term people want, but until we have one, expect google's marketing to continue saying "html5" :-)
306. # [06:43] <shepazu> Open Web is much better
307. # [06:43] <Hixie> at least the chrome guys now say "OWP"
308. # [06:44] <Hixie> but "OWP" is apparently not a term that people respond to
309. # [06:44] <shepazu> OWP is also terrible
310. # [06:44] <othermaciej> for Open Web Platform?
311. # [06:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
312. # [06:44] <shepazu> Open Web.
313. # [06:44] <othermaciej> the problem with that is, it's not specific to the current generation of improvements
314. # [06:44] <othermaciej> (or Open Web)
315. # [06:44] <Hixie> (chrome use OWP for the concept in general, not this generation)
316. # [06:44] <othermaciej> yeah
317. # [06:45] <othermaciej> we say similar things - "open web", "web platform", "web technology", "standards-based web"
318. # [06:45] <othermaciej> I like the 5 as a signifier of the current generation
319. # [06:45] <zcorpan> W3C 5
320. # [06:45] <othermaciej> it's just too bad Web x.0 is somewhat poisoned by past meaningless buzzwords
321. # [06:46] <othermaciej> zcorpan: that sounds like a model number for a european luxury car
322. # [06:46] <othermaciej> "Web 5" could avoid the .0 taint, but it's not as euphonious
323. # [06:47] <arun__> I wasn't too thrilled with 3D being associated with HTML5 in past catchphrasing at Google I/O, but whatever :)
324. # [06:47] <othermaciej> I think of the things they referred to as HTML5, only AppCache, <canvas> and <video> are actually in HTML5
325. # [06:49] <olliej> and all of them have been shipping for more than a year
326. # [06:49] <arun__> The 5 signifier is good, but unfortunately ECMAScript 5 is merely a renaming of the ersthwile ECMAScript Edition 3.1, so it's almost 5 because of standards-setting org rigidity :)
327. # [06:50] <arun__> Open Web, 5th Generation
328. # [06:51] <heycam> Open Web: The Next Generation
329. # [06:51] <othermaciej> 5th Generation Web?
330. # [06:51] <heycam> Hixie is Picard, rubys is Riker (because of the beard, obviously), ...
331. # [06:51] <arun__> heh :) Or, just to futz with O'Reilly, maybe Web 5.0?
332. # [06:52] <othermaciej> arun__: we just talked about Web 5.0, and how it may bring up bad associations with Web 2.0...
333. # [06:52] <othermaciej> but then again, for the target audience, the associations may be positive
334. # [06:52] <arun__> :)
335. # [06:52] <tantek> a whole nother meaning to "5 > 2"
336. # [06:53] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-99-137-128-33.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net)
337. # [06:53] <othermaciej> I've almost talked myself into Web 5.0
338. # [06:54] <arun__> I'm definitely warming up to Web 5.0. 5.0 is attractive numerology; Fx 3.5, etc. There's fives in sufficiently needle-moving things.
339. # [06:54] <zcorpan> maybe Opera 10 should be renamed to Opera 5
340. # [06:55] <shepazu> AppWeb?
341. # [06:56] <shepazu> zcorpan: no, it should be Opera X
342. # [06:56] <zcorpan> shepazu: too apple-y
343. # [06:56] <shepazu> then the next version should be Opera X: beagle
344. # [06:57] <shepazu> followed by pug, chihuahua, and weinerdog
345. # [06:58] <zcorpan> what would the UA string be? Opera/X.beagle ...?
346. # [06:58] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
347. # [06:58] <othermaciej> I asked Apple marketing for advice on a buzzword
348. # [07:00] * ojanLunch is now known as ojan
349. # [07:01] <shepazu> I suspect it might be too late... HTML5 is probably going to stick
350. # [07:04] <heycam> Hixie, minor nit: s/WebIDL/Web IDL/ throughout the spec (except when it's a [WebIDL] reference)
351. # [07:04] <Hixie> heycam: can you file a bug or drop me a mail?
352. # [07:05] <heycam> yep
353. # [07:05] <Hixie> thanks
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368. # [07:54] * zcorpan splits off the Ogg controversy to a separate page on wikipedia
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371. # [08:05] <zcorpan> i think that's enough wiki editing for today
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380. # [08:30] <arun__> I'd like to replace FileList as defined here: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileUpload/publish/FileUpload.html#FileList-if with something that uses sequence<File> which is much more accurate to real world usage. heycam, that's merely typedef FileList sequence<File> right?
381. # [08:31] <heycam> yep, apart from the fact that sequences aren't defined properly at the moment
382. # [08:31] <heycam> how do you want the sequences to behave?
383. # [08:31] <arun__> OK, but what if FileList were to *also* have a unsigned int for length?
384. # [08:31] <arun__> Frankly, I want sequences to behave like ECMAScript 3.0 Arrays :)
385. # [08:32] <heycam> arun__, ok
386. # [08:32] * Joins: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
387. # [08:32] <heycam> i think there a different use cases for different sequence-ish/array-ish behaviour
388. # [08:32] <heycam> so you just want to expose an array as an idl attribute
389. # [08:32] <heycam> is the array mutable?
390. # [08:32] <arun__> heycam, hmm... I may have simplified.
391. # [08:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
392. # [08:33] <arun__> The array represents the number of File objects selected by the user.
393. # [08:33] <arun__> And I was thinking that FileList would expose an unsigned int for length.
394. # [08:33] <heycam> guess i should look at the spec
395. # [08:34] <arun__> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileUpload/publish/FileUpload.html#FileList-if is what I want to replace .
396. # [08:34] <heycam> ok
397. # [08:35] <heycam> so it's a read only sequence
398. # [08:35] <arun__> So you'd say myFile = inputElement.files[0]; yourFile = inputElement.files[1]; (where inputElement.length = 2)
399. # [08:35] <heycam> can't change the length, or what File objects are stored in there
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401. # [08:35] <heycam> you can certainly do that sort of thing at the moment with an interface and use of [IndexGetter]
402. # [08:35] <arun__> Yep.
403. # [08:35] * heycam has a telcon now, so you'll have to excuse me for a bit
404. # [08:35] <arun__> Yeah, I wonder if [IndexGetter] is better than sequence here.
405. # [08:36] <Hixie> why would sequence not work?
406. # [08:36] * Hixie hopes sequence<> will work soon because HTML5 uses it :-)
407. # [08:37] <heycam> coz i've commented most of it out
408. # [08:37] <arun__> I'm ok with using sequence<> and like it, actually. But in heycam's draft, it seems commented out.
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410. # [08:37] <heycam> i'll take a look at all the specs currently using sequence and hash something out in a couple of weeks
411. # [08:37] <arun__> I'm warming up to [IndexGetter] now actually.
412. # [08:38] * arun__ goes back to reading Web IDL...
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414. # [08:41] <Hixie> it being commented out is no reason not to use it if you ask me :-)
415. # [08:41] <Hixie> it just means we don't know exactly what it'll be yet :-)
416. # [08:42] <arun__> Hixie, unless [IndexGetter] is invalid for this use case (is there a mutable/immutable thing that I should know?), it seems to do the trick admirably.
417. # [08:42] <arun__> I like sequence<> but this seems quick and dirty for my use case.
418. # [08:44] <Mrmil> Hi, I'll take the advantage that there's so many of you in the morning (well, my morning that is) and would like you to have a look at http://server.ebrana.cz/olda/_apps/html5/ and tell me what I can fix again. Thanks. :)
419. # [08:44] <Hixie> arun__: [IndexGetter] works fine here too
420. # [08:45] * Hixie uses [IndexGetter] a lot in his specs
421. # [08:45] <Hixie> it's a lot more work :-P
422. # [08:45] <arun__> FWIW I want sequence<> used in the emerging 3DWeb spec.
423. # [08:45] * arun__ now has to go back to setting an agenda for the upcoming meeting *sigh
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425. # [08:46] <Hixie> oh is there a mailing list for that yet?
426. # [08:46] <arun__> Mrmil, at first blush, the site seems ok.
427. # [08:47] <arun__> Hixie, there *is* a closed mailing list presently.
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429. # [08:48] <zcorpan> Mrmil: you could remove class="hidden" and replace the selector with nav h2
430. # [08:49] <Hixie> arun__: closed?
431. # [08:49] <Hixie> arun__: how do we join it? (and when will it be open?)
432. # [08:49] <arun__> Hixie, I continue to exert gentle pressure for more openness (I'm the Chair of the WG), but by "closed" I mean that it is for members only.
433. # [08:49] <Mrmil> zcorpan: that's true but I have an experience that the more complex the site is, the more hidden elements it has. So it's more space-wise to have short hidden classes do the trick than long selector lines in the css sheet.
434. # [08:50] <Hixie> arun__: how do i become a member?
435. # [08:50] <arun__> Hixie, your company is on it, and if you want to be on it, that's pretty straightforward.
436. # [08:50] <Mrmil> zcorpan: And I don't want to hide every nav h2.
437. # [08:50] <zcorpan> Mrmil: fair enough
438. # [08:51] <Mrmil> zcorpan: Hookey.
439. # [08:51] <zcorpan> Mrmil: <q>appealing</q> - i think this is not quite proper use of <q> per spec
440. # [08:51] <Mrmil> arun__: Thanks :)
441. # [08:51] <arun__> Hixie, ask Fette et al, but basically you sign up with your company credentials on khronos.
442. # [08:51] <Mrmil> zcorpan: Hehe, I know, I'll rewrite the text today.
443. # [08:52] <Hixie> arun__: hm, ok, will ask, thanks
444. # [08:52] <Hixie> arun__: how does a random person become a member?
445. # [08:52] <Hixie> arun__: we should post a blog post like the whatwg one telling people how to join
446. # [08:52] <zcorpan> Mrmil: the <address> only "applies" to the <aside> section per spec. although one could argue that that the spec is being silly
447. # [08:53] <zcorpan> Mrmil: <div class="clear"></div> - you could use :after instead
448. # [08:53] <Mrmil> zcorpan: could do, no problem
449. # [08:53] <arun__> Hixie, right now, the random person can only become a member by invitation based on merit as judged by other members (unlike how public-html@w3.org works -- but note I'm not implying anything about merit on that list ;-) ) OR if they pay.
450. # [08:54] <Hixie> hm, that sucks
451. # [08:54] <Hixie> we should fix that
452. # [08:54] <arun__> Hixie, essentially this is a closed group; and I'm trying :-)
453. # [08:54] <Hixie> well, i guess i'll join and help you :-)
454. # [08:54] <Hixie> who's against it?
455. # [08:54] <annevk2> are documents public?
456. # [08:54] <Mrmil> zcorpan: done. Address in aside only sounds a little limitating (hope this word exitsts)
457. # [08:55] <arun__> annevk2, I'd like to make 'em so by being efficient in releasing specs.
458. # [08:55] <arun__> annevk2, but we've barely started still.
459. # [08:55] <zcorpan> Mrmil: you could send feedback to the list regarding <address> in <aside>
460. # [08:56] <arun__> Hixie, what do you mean by [IndexGetter] is more work to use than sequence<>? You mean, instead of a typedef statement, you have to deal with the whole interface stuff?
461. # [08:56] <Mrmil> zcorpan: Ok, will do
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463. # [08:58] <Hixie> arun__: you have to define what all the indices are and so on
464. # [08:58] <arun__> Hixie, blah. I see your point.
465. # [08:58] <arun__> sequence<> would have been easier.
466. # [08:58] <annevk2> just use sequence
467. # [08:58] <annevk2> it will be defined in the end
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469. # [08:59] <annevk2> IndexGetter and all is only needed when you need special members on the interface
470. # [09:00] <arun__> annevk2, hmm... I'm defining an interface which exposes an array and an unsigned long. Seems like a single typdef won't do the trick; I need an interface statement.
471. # [09:00] <annevk2> what's the unsigned long?
472. # [09:01] <annevk2> got to run, be back in a bit
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477. # [09:03] * Mrmil wonders what to do next. Another page or polish the one?
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479. # [09:06] <zcorpan> Mrmil: you could rewrite the page in xhtml2
480. # [09:07] <Mrmil> zcorpan: Or I can as well jump out of window.
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484. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> anybody know of a way to tell svn to ignore ssl certificate errors?
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486. # [09:14] <Hixie> arun__: if sequence<> defines an Array, then that's got your unsigned long
487. # [09:15] <arun__> Hixie, eh? I'm talking about readonly unsigned long length;
488. # [09:15] <Hixie> right, depending on how heycam defines sequence<>, that might come for free
489. # [09:16] <arun__> heheh, that's a little imprecise. I'll roll with a classic interface with [IndexGetter] I think :)
490. # [09:16] <arun__> I like sequence<> tho'.
491. # [09:17] <arun__> I think we should get it spec'd to allow length attributes to come for free (modulo mutability)
492. # [09:19] * arun__ heads out for a brief pause
493. # [09:20] <Hixie> yeah might be good to have a |sequence<T>| and a |readonly sequence<T>| or |[Readonly] sequence<T>|
494. # [09:21] <Hixie> man i never have any idea what kristof is talking about
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497. # [09:24] <Mrmil> Hixie: Is it just me or does sound a little arrogant?
498. # [09:25] <Hixie> who, kristof?
499. # [09:25] <Mrmil> yes
500. # [09:26] <Hixie> not compared to a lot of the traffic on the public-html list!
501. # [09:26] <Hixie> (including my own!)
502. # [09:26] <Hixie> i just wish he'd include context so i had any idea what he was talking about
503. # [09:26] <Hixie> he's dramatically improved his tone since the early days
504. # [09:27] <Hixie> which is good
505. # [09:27] <othermaciej> bonus points to Sam for jumping on the bandwagon of "disagree == ignore"
506. # [09:27] <othermaciej> which is kind of an arrogant way to think about things
507. # [09:27] <zcorpan> i always typo <frameset> as <fieldset>
508. # [09:27] <Mrmil> Hixie: Interesting :)
509. # [09:28] <othermaciej> Kristof has sensible things to say at times but other times I get lost reading his messages
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511. # [09:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: might not hurt to put "authoring tools should default to using UTF-8 for newly-created documents" or something of that nature in the spec
512. # [09:33] <Hixie> file a bug, suggesting where to put it
513. # [09:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: OK.
514. # [09:33] * Parts: itpastorn1 (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
515. # [09:43] <ojan> Hixie: is http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/ the most up to date websockets draft?
516. # [09:44] <ojan> i couldn't find a version on whatwg.org
517. # [09:44] <annevk42> yes
518. # [09:44] <Hixie> yes
519. # [09:44] <ojan> thx
520. # [09:44] <annevk42> but there's also an I-D that goes along with it
521. # [09:44] <ojan> a wot?
522. # [09:44] <Hixie> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol
523. # [09:45] <annevk42> thot /\
524. # [09:45] <ojan> :)
525. # [09:46] <Hixie> you implementing?
526. # [09:46] <ojan> Hixie: no. i have a meeting tomorrow with people who'd like to implement though.
527. # [09:46] <Hixie> ah, cool
528. # [09:47] <ojan> figured i should read the spec first :)
529. # [09:47] <Hixie> :-)
530. # [09:47] <Hixie> the text thing describes the wire protocol
531. # [09:47] <Hixie> the w3c one defines the dom api
532. # [09:47] <ojan> i see, i was just about to ask that
533. # [09:47] <Hixie> (the ietf got upset that we were defining wire protocols in the w3c)
534. # [09:48] * ojan is already sick of standards politics
535. # [09:51] <hsivonen> ojan: you probably haven't seen the hybi list yet...
536. # [09:51] <Hixie> it's very odd having my boss post to the whatwg list
537. # [09:51] <Hixie> not to mention dannyb, who's also on my team
538. # [09:52] <ojan> hsivonen: no, i haven't. what is that?
539. # [09:52] <hsivonen> ojan: I mean, reading the hybi list is an interesting dose of politics
540. # [09:52] <ojan> ah
541. # [09:52] <hsivonen> ojan: it's the IETF list for web socket
542. # [09:52] <hsivonen> ojan: and for things that got lumped into the same list
543. # [09:52] <Hixie> technically it's the IETF list for bidirectional HTTP
544. # [09:52] <Hixie> and websocket somehow got dragged into it
545. # [09:53] <Hixie> though most of the people there don't want it
546. # [09:53] <Hixie> in practice if websocket is implemented, it'll become a moot issue
547. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: who's your boss?
548. # [09:54] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what "bidirectional HTTP" even means
549. # [09:54] <Hixie> chris dibona
550. # [09:54] <ojan> Hixie: we have a number of teams asking for it
551. # [09:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: that's part of the problem
552. # [09:54] <Hixie> ojan: you should have seen the wave team salivating when i told them about it :-P
553. # [09:54] <othermaciej> people seem to have all sorts of different and weird ideas about it
554. # [09:54] <othermaciej> WebSocket is on deck for us Apple folks as one of the next WebKit features to tackle, once Safari 4 final ships
555. # [09:55] <ojan> othermaciej: there are chromium people who plan to start working on it soon as well. i have a meeting with them tomorrow.
556. # [09:56] <othermaciej> ojan: maybe there should be some coordination so we don't end up with duplicated efforts
557. # [09:56] <ojan> othermaciej: totally.
558. # [09:57] <othermaciej> (and I am remiss in not really sharing our engine feature plans, but we'll probably let webkit-dev know soonish about some of the big things we are interested in working on)
559. # [09:57] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
560. # [09:57] <ojan> othermaciej: that would definitely help in our roadmap planning.
561. # [09:58] <Hixie> should usemap="#x" require a matching id="x" or a matching name="x"? hsivonen, zcorpan, any opinions? spec says name="", but i think that's a typo
562. # [09:58] <othermaciej> would help to hear the same from Google
563. # [09:58] <ojan> othermaciej: are there specific webkit folk they should contact outside of webkit-dev?
564. # [09:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: isn't name what actually works everywhere except Gecko's XML mode?
565. # [09:58] <othermaciej> webkit-dev is probably better than contacting specific folks in any case
566. # [09:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: I *think* I sent feedback when I last tested this, but now I can't remember what I said
567. # [09:59] <Hixie> oh, wait, i was looking at <img name>
568. # [09:59] <Hixie> but it should be <map name>, right?
569. # [09:59] <Hixie> and that exists
570. # [09:59] <Hixie> so nevermind
571. # [09:59] <Hixie> i'm an idiot
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580. # [10:29] <ojan> Hixie: what happens with websockets if the server sends the client some data and the client closes the socket before receiving that data?
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583. # [10:30] <ojan> or, more importantly, the other way around...client sends the server data, but the server closes the socket before receiving the data
584. # [10:30] <ojan> is there a way for the client to detect that the server never got the transmission?
585. # [10:34] <ojan> hm...i guess TCP/IP deals with this for you so that situation isn't actually possible? namely, the packet transmission would fail
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589. # [10:35] <ojan> nevermind...it is possible. client calls postMessage, then gets disconnected from the internet. is there anyway for them to see that the server never got the postMessage data?
590. # [10:36] <Philip`> What if the server got the message but then got disconnected from the internet itself, so it couldn't send any acknowledgement back
591. # [10:36] <Philip`> s/$/?/
592. # [10:36] <Hixie> ojan: if they care, they have to have the server ack everything
593. # [10:37] <ojan> Hixie: i see
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598. # [11:03] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/mid/E34714E1E6587741AD32C8E445B6F4AB01637C9D@dewdfe1o.wdf.sap.corp is interesting
599. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I very much hope that vcs for validator.nu moves to something other than subversion eventually
600. # [11:14] * jgraham starts doing a little mercurial dance in the background
601. # [11:16] * Philip` averts his gaze in embarrassment
602. # [11:17] <jgraham> Philip`: Just be glad I asn't doing the Git dance
603. # [11:18] <Philip`> YAML really is a rubbish output format
604. # [11:18] <Philip`> (probably because it's incredibly complicated, and therefore nobody implements it properly)
605. # [11:19] <Philip`> JSON seems to work a lot better, i.e. it actually works
606. # [11:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. if now is the time when svn is actually a problem, I guess exploring a move to hg is now justified.
607. # [11:20] <othermaciej> Hixie, ojan: depending on the particular case, there might be simpler ways to check than having the server ack everything
608. # [11:20] <othermaciej> for example, the client could include a sequence number in every message, and when making a new connection to the server, the server could report the last sequence number it got
609. # [11:20] <Hixie> indeed
610. # [11:20] <othermaciej> TCP guarantees you won't lose just middle messages
611. # [11:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: CVSDude doesn't have hg yet, so switching to hg means either bitbucket or Google.
612. # [11:21] <othermaciej> and as long as you remain connected there's no need to ack
613. # [11:21] <othermaciej> it's only after losing connectivity that it's possible some tail of the stream never arrived
614. # [11:21] <ojan> yup
615. # [11:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll think about this and will ask fantasai after I've thought about this
616. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
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619. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it's not an acute problem for many at the moment, since I finally managed to solve the particular problem I was having (but only after spending a good part of the afternoon trying to troubleshoot it)
620. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> but I've found subversion to be a chronic time-waster
621. # [11:24] <hsivonen> yeah, svn sucks once you've seen hg
622. # [11:24] <hsivonen> svn seemed great when you had only seen cvs
623. # [11:24] <zcorpan> contenteditable is such a mess
624. # [11:24] <hsivonen> also, gotta check on the hg Eclipse plug-in situation
625. # [11:25] <jgraham> zcorpan: and in other news...
626. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I find the worst thing about the svn client and library is that when I do run into problems with it, it is very time-consuming to try to troubleshoot them -- mostly because of the almost total lack of any useful error messages about what's causing the problem
627. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> in the case of the problem I ran into today, it was because of libneon
628. # [11:26] * hsivonen has no idea what libneon is
629. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> but there was no way I could have ever figured that out from the error output that svn was giving
630. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I didn't know what libneon was until today either
631. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> apparently it is what subversion relies on for https
632. # [11:29] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
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636. # [11:48] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@220.109.219.244)
637. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> is there some parameter I can pass to http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker to make it show more than the default number of changes that it shows?
638. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> annevk42: ↑
639. # [11:48] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
640. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> (assuming it was annevk42 who wrote the interface)
641. # [11:48] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
642. # [11:49] <jgraham> MikeSmith: There is but I don't know what
643. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> k
644. # [11:50] <Philip`> MikeSmith: ?limit=123
645. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> Philip`: thanks
646. # [11:51] <Philip`> according to http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/web-apps-tracker/trackerlib.py
647. # [11:51] <annevk42> limit
648. # [11:51] <annevk42> you can even get infinite by using -1
649. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> sweet
650. # [11:56] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
651. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: anyway, I'm very happy to help in any way I can with migration to mercurial hosting, if/when you want to migrate
652. # [12:02] <Hixie> ok bed time
653. # [12:02] <Hixie> nn
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658. # [12:26] <hsivonen> no <video> in Opera 10 beta, right?
659. # [12:27] * Quits: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@193.93.127.141)
660. # [12:29] <annevk42> I don't think we'll do <video> for 10
661. # [12:29] <hsivonen> ok
662. # [12:33] * Joins: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
663. # [12:33] <hsivonen> hmm. Opera just autoupdated itself to Opera/10.00 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X; U; en) Presto/2.2.1 build 6343 calling itself alpha with the old appearance
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671. # [12:48] <hendry> hmm, was hoping Opera 10 would support border-radius
672. # [12:49] <hsivonen> I guess Alpha really means Alpha at Opera, since the engine features didn't get a trunk update between Alpha and Beta
673. # [12:50] * hsivonen wonders how many concurrent engine branches Opera has
674. # [12:51] <zcorpan> Opera 10 alpha and Opera 10 beta both use core 2.2 which is pretty old now
675. # [12:56] <hsivonen> I was hoping to get to a point where I could write that three out of five support Theora natively, one supports it with XiphQT and the last one has issues but has Cortado :-/
676. # [12:56] <hsivonen> I guess I'll have to wait until Opera 10.next
677. # [12:57] * hsivonen wonders how <video> is doing in Epiphany-WebKit
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687. # [13:57] <hsivonen> ezyang: the test case for <!DOCTYPE html><body xlink:href=foo><math xlink:href=foo></math> is now wrong
688. # [13:57] <hsivonen> xlink:href doesn't go into the XLink namespace on HTML elements
689. # [13:58] <hsivonen> (I'll fix)
690. # [13:58] * jgraham thought he had fixed that
691. # [13:59] * hsivonen does hg pull
692. # [13:59] <hsivonen> ok. I had a stale local repo
693. # [14:01] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p4050-ipbf3009marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
694. # [14:02] <hsivonen> hmm. the frameset tests have changed to be less WebKit-compatible
695. # [14:02] * hsivonen tests IE
696. # [14:04] <hsivonen> I'm unable to figure out what the actual rendered effect of IE's crazy DOM would be
697. # [14:04] <hsivonen> but the tests are now less aligned with Opera, too
698. # [14:08] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@59.90.71.35)
699. # [14:16] <hsivonen> why are </body> and </html> differnt in 'in head' and 'in head noscript'?
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707. # [14:40] * Mrmil wonders if anyone is alive here. He added one little thing to his test page and might need a little feedback again.
708. # [14:41] <jgraham> Everyone's dead, Dave
709. # [14:41] <Mrmil> Auuuuu I'll eat you my little fishie...
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713. # [14:48] <Mrmil> never mind then
714. # [14:48] <annevk42> it's easier to just post your question and later check the minutes if someone picked up on it
715. # [14:48] <annevk42> this IRC channel works very well asynchronously from time to time
716. # [14:49] <Mrmil> I know, I just posted it here 5 million times that I'd feel like spamming
717. # [14:50] <Mrmil> It's here http://server.ebrana.cz/olda/_apps/html5/ and I added the little searchform in the head
718. # [14:50] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@wlan-145-94-171-135.wlan.tudelft.nl)
719. # [14:52] <Philip`> I don't particularly like how the search box expands when I click on it - that seems like unusual and unexpected behaviour
720. # [14:52] <Mrmil> better now?
721. # [14:53] <Mrmil> right, if it should do that, it should probably expand on the other side, hm hm
722. # [14:54] <Philip`> I like it now that it doesn't surprisingly expand for no reason :-)
723. # [14:54] <Mrmil> Ok :)
724. # [14:55] <Mrmil> the html of it is pretty simple, there is no problem I think
725. # [14:55] <Philip`> Hmm, does HTML 5 not have <input type=search>?
726. # [14:56] <Philip`> Oh, it does
727. # [14:56] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#text-state-and-search-state
728. # [14:56] <Philip`> Maybe that would be appropriate for the search box?
729. # [14:57] <Mrmil> damn, there you go, I am so used to this html that I forgot there could be even better solution. Thanks Philip, I'll fix that
730. # [14:57] <Mrmil> I haven't really looked into the html5 forms, but it's on my list
731. # [14:58] <Philip`> Hmm, I think <time datetime="2009-06-03T13:20:34"> is invalid
732. # [14:59] <Philip`> If it's a date-and-time then it needs to be a global date-and-time, i.e. include timezone information
733. # [14:59] <Mrmil> I checked that, it's valid
734. # [15:00] <Philip`> According to the spec, or according to a possibly-buggy validator?
735. # [15:00] <Mrmil> according to Hixie
736. # [15:00] <Mrmil> he said it was optional
737. # [15:01] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-time-element goes to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#valid-date-or-time-string which goes to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#valid-global-date-and-time-string
738. # [15:01] <Philip`> which says you need either Z or [+-]\d\d:\d\d
739. # [15:01] <Philip`> Am I missing something here?
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742. # [15:12] <Mrmil> 2009-06-03T13:20:34+02:00 so this would be CET time right
743. # [15:13] <Philip`> CET with daylight saving would be +02:00, I believe
744. # [15:14] <Mrmil> right
745. # [15:20] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-67-217.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
746. # [15:26] <wakaba_> MikeSmith: http://pastebin.com/f3a189e59
747. # [15:26] <wakaba_> my emobile connection don't have route, either...
748. # [15:30] <Mrmil> Philip`: Whew, we have old php here, had to do it manually. Good now? <time datetime="2009-06-03T15:02:40+02:00">
749. # [15:31] <Philip`> Mrmil: Looks good to me, though I'm not sure why validator.nu accepts it without the timezone
750. # [15:33] <Mrmil> Philip`: well, me neither, though it does sound weird to have the stamp without a timezone
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753. # [15:38] <ezyang> hsivonen: (stark) So... is this fine distinction between having an actual namespace and being a literal foo:bar actually what happens in browsers?
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755. # [15:40] <hsivonen> ezyang: yes
756. # [15:40] <ezyang> Good grief
757. # [15:41] <ezyang> It's almost as if they ignored all of the good bits of XML.
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760. # [15:42] <Philip`> The implementations existed before XML did, and then it became too late to change because of legacy content
761. # [15:42] <hsivonen> ezyang: what would be the good bits in this case?
762. # [15:42] <ezyang> The good bits would be consistency and namespacing.
763. # [15:43] <Philip`> Controversial :-o
764. # [15:43] <hsivonen> I agree about consistency. I disagree on namespacing.
765. # [15:43] <ezyang> As a tool author, namespaces are uniformly a good thing. It's unclear about that on the browser side
766. # [15:43] <Philip`> HTML is consistent - you parse a sequence of non-whitespace characters and use that as the attribute name, and that's it (and you don't put the attribute into any particular namespace)
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768. # [15:45] <annevk42> Where is the Google Wave desktop drag & drop API defined?
769. # [15:46] <annevk42> I couldn't find it in the Gears documentation
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771. # [15:47] <jgraham> annevk42: Is there work going on anywhere to make that stuff work without gears?
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773. # [15:49] <Philip`> Does Hg make it possible to import an external library into my repository, apply some local patches, and then easily keep the external library up-to-date with external revisions? (I presume it's just some kind of simple merging, but I don't know enough about Hg to know if there's a specific way to make it work properly)
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776. # [15:50] <jgraham> annevk42: (e.g. in webapps since I don't really follow that)
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786. # [15:53] <jgraham> Philip`: It seems like the answer is "Maybe". There are a couple of adddsons that claim to do things like svn:externals but it's not clear if they work well or not
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789. # [15:55] <annevk42> jgraham, about as much work as work on video streaming and audio manipulation APIs
790. # [15:55] <jgraham> annevk42: Is that a long way of saying "no but people would like it to"?
791. # [15:56] <annevk42> jgraham, though in the Wave video Google claims they want to work on this soon
792. # [15:56] <annevk42> jgraham, a long way of saying no work at all
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794. # [15:56] <annevk42> jgraham, but also that I think there should :)
795. # [15:56] <jgraham> annevk42: Agreed :)
796. # [15:56] <Philip`> jgraham: Ah, I don't want it to be automatic - I just want it to be a straightforward manual process (e.g. copy the external library's latest files, then commit it to Hg somehow, then hope that a normal Hg checkout will incorporate those latest files plus any custom patches)
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799. # [15:57] <Philip`> (presumably with some merging happening somewhere but I don't really know where)
800. # [15:57] <jgraham> Philip`: Presumably you can just clone the original then make your changes and then pull the original changes every so often and remerge
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802. # [15:58] <Philip`> Hmm
803. # [15:58] <Philip`> Where would the original changes be pulled from?
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806. # [15:59] <jgraham> Philip`: The VCS of the external library
807. # [15:59] <jgraham> I guess
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809. # [16:00] * jgraham feels he is missing something
810. # [16:00] <Philip`> Can you pull from it if it's using SVN?
811. # [16:01] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah if you use {some random tool that lets you do that}
812. # [16:01] * Philip` doesn't really know much about this at all
813. # [16:01] <jgraham> hgsvn maybe?
814. # [16:01] <Philip`> Ah, okay
815. # [16:01] <jgraham> http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/WorkingWithSubversion
816. # [16:05] <Philip`> Sounds like it's all kind of straightforward, which is nice
817. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> wakaba_: thanks. cause of my problem turned out to not be a routing issue but instead a debian packaging flub combined with fundamental borkedness in svn
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831. # [16:54] <Hish> hi. is there an official way how to implement svg in html5? I only know that xhtml/svg is working...
832. # [16:55] <annevk42> you mean as an author?
833. # [16:56] <annevk42> at some point <div> <svg> <circle /> </svg> </div> (with appropriate attributes) will work
834. # [16:57] <Hish> without namespaces?
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837. # [16:59] <Philip`> Hish: Yes
838. # [17:00] <Hish> ok. thx a lot.
839. # [17:00] <Philip`> Hish: (though you'll have to wait years until you can use it reliably)
840. # [17:00] <Hish> sure. i stick with xhtml/svg for the time being
841. # [17:03] <gsnedders> I guess in recent browsers you can do something like changeNSElements = document.getElementsByTagName("svg").getElementsByTagName("*") and change the namespace of each element
842. # [17:03] <gsnedders> I guess you'll have to do it for the svg element itself
843. # [17:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: If you were a bit more clever than that you could probably implement something not too dissimmilar to the foreign content mode of the parser using js working on the post-parse tree
844. # [17:07] <jgraham> With some restrictions like no self-closing elements
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846. # [17:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: Probably. But that's more work. :)
847. # [17:08] * beowulf subscribes to gsnedders newsletter
848. # [17:09] <gsnedders> beowulf: Pff. Writing one is too much effort.
849. # [17:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: It would be nice to support MathML and HTML in SVG in HTML. So you would at least want to special-case <foreignContent>
850. # [17:12] <gsnedders> hmm… I'm not getting Opera 10 Beta as an auto-update :\
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866. # [18:33] <ezyang> gsnedder: ping
867. # [18:36] * jgraham wishes we could just drop all the week numbering stuff from HTML5
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877. # [18:58] <gsnedders> ezyang: Including my full nick in pings helps :P
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879. # [19:00] <ezyang> heh
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884. # [19:18] <gsnedders> I could do with some way of raising warnings in Anolis
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886. # [19:21] <gsnedders> And then do things like warn about referencing obsolete docs
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902. # [20:08] <takkaria> wow
903. # [20:08] <takkaria> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Jun/0000.html
904. # [20:08] <takkaria> and more specifically, http://larry.masinter.net/versioning-html.html
905. # [20:12] * tantek notes that the versioning-html.html document itself lacks traditional W3C document versioning, i.e. as described/shown here: http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#Errata
906. # [20:12] * zcorpan fails to resist the temptation to discuss bytes-to-DOM of XML and error handling in XML with the XML Core WG
907. # [20:13] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2009Jun/0009.html
908. # [20:13] <gsnedders> zcorpan: There is fairly decent error handling dictated in the XML spec at least :P
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911. # [20:23] <zcorpan> gsnedders: but not error recovery
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919. # [20:38] <gsnedders> zcorpan: No, but it is handling :P
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923. # [21:17] <zcorpan> yay my edits on wikipedia haven't been reverted yet
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925. # [21:20] * gsnedders wonders what edits
926. # [21:20] <zcorpan> to the html5 page
927. # [21:21] <atwilson> I'm somewhat confused about the language surrounding task sources in section 6.5.4 - in particular, if an object is no longer used as a task source for an event loop (for example, a MessagePort that has been closed, does that imply that all queued (but not yet dispatched) events for that task source are removed from the queue?
928. # [21:21] <atwilson> Anyone know what behavior is intended?
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932. # [21:24] <Hixie> atwilson: why would that cause it to no longer be used?
933. # [21:25] <atwilson> Ah.
934. # [21:25] <atwilson> I read this: When a port's port message queue is open, the event loop must use it as one of its task sources. and assumed that causing close() would also close the message queue, but apparently that is not the case.
935. # [21:26] <Hixie> nope
936. # [21:26] <Hixie> i should probably make that clearer
937. # [21:26] <atwilson> Close just prevents the ports from communicating with one another, but doesn't affect the open status of the queues.
938. # [21:26] <Hixie> maybe use different words than open/close
939. # [21:28] <atwilson> Yeah, maybe. The spec pretty clearly doesn't say that the message queue is closed - that was entirely my misreading, although I guess explicitly stating that the port message queue should be left open wouldn't be bad.
940. # [21:28] <zcorpan> "W3C: Web Storage draft standard" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOM_storage
941. # [21:29] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
942. # [21:30] <Hixie> atwilson: i've reowrded it to say "enabled" vs" disabled" and to mention that it never goes back to disabled
943. # [21:30] <atwilson> Hixie: OK. Note that it *does* go back to disabled if the port is cloned.
944. # [21:30] <Hixie> actually no, it just gets emptied
945. # [21:31] <Hixie> this has much the same effect, of course
946. # [21:31] <atwilson> Ah, you are right again.
947. # [21:31] <Hixie> i have an unfair advantage in that i wrote this nonsense :-)
948. # [21:31] <Hixie> sadly i still sometimes find i wrote something that i didn't think i wrote :-(
949. # [21:32] <atwilson> Anyhow, I like having the port never go back to disabled. Thanks for clarifying.
950. # [21:33] <Hixie> only 850 e-mails to go to hit my OKR
951. # [21:34] <Hixie> that's about 30 e-mails a day until the end of the month
952. # [21:34] <Hixie> should be feasible...
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964. # [22:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: You could use the warnings module with anolis to generate warnings, maybe
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971. # [22:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: Are they not just exceptions, which would make them hard to use?
972. # [22:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: What could PMS do with them anyway?
973. # [22:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess it could put them in a comment before the root element
974. # [23:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: They are basically exceptions yes
975. # [23:05] <jgraham> But higher level code can choose which ones to react to and how to deal with them
976. # [23:05] <jgraham> Dunno if it's a good idea or not
977. # [23:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: In particular it might be more sutiable for language/api level stuff than application level stuff
978. # [23:08] <jgraham> For your use case it is probably a bad idea
979. # [23:10] * gsnedders orders Lightroom
980. # [23:10] * gsnedders hopes it is all right to use his father's name in the billing address (as that must be as on credit card) while doing it at the educational store in my name…
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985. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Now, phase two of spending my father's money: plane tickets to get to/from Sweden.
986. # [23:20] <gsnedders> noooo…
987. # [23:20] <gsnedders> flight sold out since yesterday!
988. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Sux.
989. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Oh, no.
990. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Just Ryanair website maybe broken…
991. # [23:21] <gsnedders> I should probably be using a released web browser…
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993. # [23:28] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.151) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
994. # [23:30] <gsnedders> Yay. Ryanair is awesome. Buying single plane tickets you have to buy them one at a time.
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1000. # [23:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: Their website is intentionally crap to make you think that they are cheap
1001. # [23:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: They're cheaper than Flyglobespan at least :D
1002. # [23:43] <gsnedders> (Which is a similar low-cost airline)
1003. # [23:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: Does the change to the test with <body><frame></frame></frame><frameset> reflect some anticipated change in the spec or can I not read?
1004. # [23:43] <gsnedders> Oh, fun fact: last October I flew from Edinburgh to Paris by Air France because it was cheaper than flying by EasyJet
1005. # [23:44] <jgraham> AFAICT the only way to set the frameset-OK flag to true is by not having an explicit <body>
1006. # [23:44] <jgraham> Although it is too late and I am too tired for me to try reading the spec properly, so I could be wrong
1007. # [23:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: I bet Ryanair are much much worse. They are much worse than EasyJet
1008. # [23:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: Indeed.
1009. # [23:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: My flight from Nice to Edinburgh on Flyglobespan, a apparently low-cost airline cost something like £120
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1011. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Sadly, however, Ryanair is the only airline that flies the routes I need this summer.
1012. # [23:50] <gsnedders> STN–NYO: 73.26 GBP
1013. # [23:50] <gsnedders> NYO–SXF: 220 SEK
1014. # [23:50] <gsnedders> SXF–STN: 25 EUR
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1018. # Session Close: Thu Jun 04 00:00:00 2009

The end :)