/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 05 00:00:01 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: Nonsense! Everything is easy with grep
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  5. # [00:07] <Philip`> Am I missing some place where <foo xmlns:bar=""/> is clearly a namespace-well-formedness error?
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  7. # [00:07] <Philip`> All I see is "the namespace name may not be empty", which isn't a very convincingly accurate conformance requirement
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  10. # [00:12] <Philip`> Oh, it's clarified in an errate
  11. # [00:12] <Philip`> s/e/a/
  12. # [00:14] <Hixie> the average rate of new feedback has increased
  13. # [00:14] <Hixie> interesting
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  20. # [01:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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  36. # [02:26] <Hixie> who was i discussing the websocket protocol with recently?
  37. # [02:26] <Hixie> something about how servers should handle errors
  38. # [02:26] <Hixie> was that jwalden?
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  41. # [02:41] <franksalim> Hixie, you were recently discussing the use of CONNECT with jwalden
  42. # [02:42] <Hixie> ok
  43. # [02:42] <Hixie> thanks
  44. # [02:42] <Hixie> i'll have to catch him when he gets back
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  48. # [03:02] <Hixie> i wish i understood the IETF better
  49. # [03:02] <Hixie> e.g. why does http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol have versions 12, 13, and 15 but not 14?
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  52. # [03:06] <franksalim> I don't know, and now I cannot easily see the diff for the new version
  53. # [03:07] <Hixie> the diff is at http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  54. # [03:07] <Hixie> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3191&to=3192 specifically is today's update
  55. # [03:09] <franksalim> thanks. it is unfortunate that the missing versions broke the diff links on the ietf site, though
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  94. # [06:00] <jwalden> Hixie: it'd be nice if you made it easier to download acid3 for local testing and modifications somehow, maybe a zip of the directory and the Apache config files inside it (I'm guessing at your current setup)
  95. # [06:01] <Hixie> i can provide a tarball if you want
  96. # [06:01] <Hixie> btw i made the websocket protocol spec clearer about server-side error handling rules
  97. # [06:01] <jwalden> that'd have been useful a few hours ago, but I hacked one together
  98. # [06:01] <jwalden> spat of wgets and the occasional -S to see what I was missing
  99. # [06:01] * jwalden looks at ws
  100. # [06:03] <Hixie> well let me know if you ever want one, i do make the on demand
  101. # [06:03] <Hixie> i don't really want to encourage people to download it though
  102. # [06:06] <jwalden> why not?
  103. # [06:06] <jwalden> fears that people are likely to screw up the configuration process?
  104. # [06:07] <Hixie> more or less
  105. # [06:07] <jwalden> hm
  106. # [06:07] <Hixie> i don't want to have to field support questions from non-browser developers
  107. # [06:07] <Hixie> non-browser-developers i should say
  108. # [06:07] <jwalden> could put a URL in the acid3 source, might be sufficiently obscure for people not to use it unless they're interested
  109. # [06:07] <Hixie> *shrug* browser people can just ask me :-P
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  111. # [06:14] <ezyang> Do we have updated tests for th latest dash-dash-bang-angle comment terminator?
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  124. # [08:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: you asked if I was here
  125. # [08:00] <hsivonen> I just read the log from yesterday
  126. # [08:00] <Hixie> i wanted to ask you your input on the comment stuff, iirc
  127. # [08:00] <hsivonen> I think what Philip` said http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090604#l-1058 is the best way to discover if @summary is useful
  128. # [08:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: context?
  129. # [08:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: I want to avoid reparsing if we can avoid it. I don't have proper data, so tentatively I trust zcorpan's judgment on --!>
  130. # [08:02] <Hixie> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3190&to=3191
  131. # [08:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: seems reasonable
  132. # [08:04] <Hixie> k
  133. # [08:04] <hsivonen> I'm already over the 8000 byte limit anyway :-(
  134. # [08:06] <hsivonen> (aside on the 8000-byte limit: not unsurprisingly, on Stack Overflow, I got more people doubting the premise on my question than contributing towards answering the actual question)
  135. # [08:07] <Hixie> heh
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  137. # [08:07] <hsivonen> here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/944492/is-there-a-java-bytecode-optimizer-that-removes-useless-gotos
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  139. # [08:11] <Hixie> hsivonen: have you considered just writing one manually? it seems you know what optimisation you want.
  140. # [08:12] <Hixie> (possibly by extending an existing optimiser)
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  143. # [08:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: I've even considered writing a custom compiler for the method, but I'd prefer not to spend the time
  144. # [08:22] <Hixie> heh
  145. # [08:22] <Hixie> you've already written a Java to C++ convertor
  146. # [08:22] <Hixie> how much hard could a Java to bytecode convertor be :-)
  147. # [08:23] <hsivonen> I've also considered a per hack for splitting the doctype states out just ahead of compilation without spoiling the mail source
  148. # [08:23] <hsivonen> s/pel/perl/
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  155. # [08:47] <zcorpan> "I would like to kill Hixie" - http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/raw-file/tip/example.src.html
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  157. # [08:49] <pesla> Morning
  158. # [08:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fails at nice and happy :-(
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  165. # [09:03] <jgraham> Hixie: It you have something like <!-- abc -- > efg the efg will appear outside the comment in gecko
  166. # [09:03] <jgraham> afaict
  167. # [09:04] <Hixie> yes, because of comment reparsing
  168. # [09:04] <Hixie> try it with <!-- abc -- > efg -->
  169. # [09:05] <jgraham> Hixie: I see efg --> outside the comment
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  171. # [09:05] <jgraham> (WebKit is different)
  172. # [09:08] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/133
  173. # [09:08] <Hixie> what do you see?
  174. # [09:08] <Hixie> i'm using Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.2a1pre) Gecko/20090604 Minefield/3.6a1pre
  175. # [09:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: why is "anything else" a parse error in the bang state?
  176. # [09:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: <!-- --!--> has one parse error but <!-- --!x--> has two
  177. # [09:17] * Hixie denies everything while checking in a fix
  178. # [09:18] <jgraham> Hixie: What I see depends on standards mode v quirks mode
  179. # [09:18] <jgraham> In standards mode dash-dash-space terminates a comment
  180. # [09:19] <Hixie> i've only been checking quirks mode
  181. # [09:20] <zcorpan> in gecko
  182. # [09:20] <Hixie> cos that's what the e-mail i responded to earlier today said to check :-)
  183. # [09:21] <zcorpan> from the pages that were analyzed, it was reasonably clear that pages would render better if -- > closed comments
  184. # [09:22] <zcorpan> certainly there was no page in the set that would render worse
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  186. # [09:23] <jgraham> Hixie: It was opera quirks mode that does reparsing. I didn't realise that gecko behaviour depended on mode
  187. # [09:23] <Hixie> what exactly is the proposal? Same as for bang, but if you hit a space, stay in the state? How do you know how many spaces to emit when you hit a bogus character afterwards?
  188. # [09:23] <Hixie> seems like this would involve tracking more state than we'd like
  189. # [09:24] <jgraham> Hixie: Yes and I doubt it matters
  190. # [09:24] <jgraham> Oh maybe it does matter
  191. # [09:25] <Hixie> collapsing all the spaces everytime you hit two --s in a row in a comment would be mighty weird
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  193. # [09:25] <Hixie> especially if one of the spaces is a newline
  194. # [09:25] <Hixie> and the comment is something like:
  195. # [09:25] <Hixie> <!-------------
  196. # [09:25] <Hixie> hello
  197. # [09:25] <Hixie> ----------->
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  199. # [09:26] <zcorpan> i guess you could just append the two dashes to the comments data upon seeing whitespace so that <!-- -- > would have the data " -- "
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  201. # [09:29] <zcorpan> i think it doesn't matter so much what the comment's data is, it's more important to get right where it ends
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  206. # [09:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: was it deliberate that the CDATA escape flag doesn't have a bang state?
  207. # [09:45] <Hixie> yes
  208. # [09:46] <hsivonen> maybe I should defer implementation for a few hours until you guys converge on what the spec should be
  209. # [09:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: due to reparsing, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!--%20--%20%3EHello shows "Hello" in both webkit and gecko
  210. # [09:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: note the comment's data
  211. # [09:49] <Hixie> yeah, i was convinced by your comment above
  212. # [09:50] <Hixie> sorry, didn't respond, too busy actually implementing your suggestion :-)
  213. # [09:50] <zcorpan> no worries :)
  214. # [09:52] <Hixie> done
  215. # [09:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: whitespace in the space state should just say "Stay in the space state"
  216. # [09:56] <zcorpan> er it should probably append the character too
  217. # [09:57] <Hixie> oops
  218. # [09:57] <Hixie> fied
  219. # [09:57] <Hixie> fixed
  220. # [09:59] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/49F9F176.8020108@mit.edu makes me sad
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  222. # [10:00] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks for fixing comment parsing
  223. # [10:00] <Hixie> np
  224. # [10:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think the spec is good now
  225. # [10:01] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@dyn183.roaming.few.vu.nl)
  226. # [10:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. thanks
  227. # [10:02] <hsivonen> does Bing have a #1 rank for my doctype article in general or do they just move .fi results higher when the user is in .fi? http://www.bing.com/search?q=doctype
  228. # [10:02] <hsivonen> anyway, it seems that Bing beats Google here ;-)
  229. # [10:03] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html is the top hit for me
  230. # [10:03] <annevk42> in France you're not on the page at all
  231. # [10:03] <Hixie> yeah here neither
  232. # [10:03] <hsivonen> :-(
  233. # [10:03] <annevk42> first page is http://pompage.net/pompe/doctype/
  234. # [10:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://labb.seoserver.se/att-anvanda-ratt-doctype/ is #1 for me. you're #2
  235. # [10:03] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  236. # [10:04] <hsivonen> thanks. It seems that Bing is very heavily locale-reshuffled
  237. # [10:04] <annevk42> wow, not on the first three pages
  238. # [10:04] <virtuelv> hsivonen: "heavily" is an understatement
  239. # [10:05] <virtuelv> for some searches I've tried, there is next to nothing in common between the NO and EN_US result pages
  240. # [10:05] <hsivonen> It seems to me that Google's idea of ranking English results high and offering machine translation is a much better solution that parochialism
  241. # [10:06] <zcorpan> it's very annoying to read machine translated text, though
  242. # [10:07] <hsivonen> one day I was searching for something in Finnish, Google offered to translate my search terms into English, found a better result at the BBC and offered to translate it back but also let me read the original
  243. # [10:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: well, yeah, teaching kids to read English at school works better
  244. # [10:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: nice
  245. # [10:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: i've heard of that feature but never heard of anyone who actually had it trigger for them
  246. # [10:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: glad you had a good experience :-)
  247. # [10:11] <zcorpan> does google detect the language from the search query?
  248. # [10:12] <zcorpan> or does it assume finnish for google.fi?
  249. # [10:15] * Joins: RvW (n=chatzill@81.173.127.124)
  250. # [10:15] <hsivonen> I can't remember how I managed to trigger the feature, so I can't test
  251. # [10:16] <zcorpan> does any browser other than opera implement media=projection?
  252. # [10:17] * Joins: philipj__ (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com)
  253. # [10:17] <annevk42> no
  254. # [10:17] <annevk42> there's an extension for Firefox I think
  255. # [10:18] <annevk42> oh, hsivonen's namespace patch got superreview; I wonder how that works out when deployed
  256. # [10:19] * zcorpan wonders which patch
  257. # [10:27] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  258. # [10:33] * virtuelv thinks it's a shame no other vendor has picked up on media=projection yet
  259. # [10:34] <annevk42> it's not really an important feature
  260. # [10:34] <annevk42> though it's fun to have
  261. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk42: I'm very happy it got sr. however, commit access even to the trunk is restricted to Firefox 3.5 blockers, so I can't just go ahead and check in
  262. # [10:35] <annevk42> that sucks :/
  263. # [10:35] <virtuelv> annevk42: indeed
  264. # [10:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  265. # [10:35] <virtuelv> I very much prefer using Operashow over other technologies for presentations
  266. # [10:35] <virtuelv> (except for the fact that I did roll my own cross-browser workalike)
  267. # [10:37] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  268. # [10:37] <zcorpan> operashow is nice
  269. # [10:38] <zcorpan> just needs a proper editor to create them
  270. # [10:38] <hsivonen> paged screen media would make sense for hand-held refreshable paper device
  271. # [10:38] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  272. # [10:39] <hsivonen> I remember reading about refreshable black&white paper-like foldable display 10 years ago
  273. # [10:39] <hsivonen> I wonder what happened. Patents? actual technical flaws
  274. # [10:40] <hsivonen> it had tiny spheres embedded to it that were half white and half black and could be flipped electrically
  275. # [10:40] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  276. # [10:42] <Philip`> Sounds similar to http://www.eink.com/technology/howitworks.html
  277. # [10:42] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@67.180.199.19)
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  279. # [10:42] <Philip`> (which is used for Kindle-like devices)
  280. # [10:43] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  281. # [10:43] * hsivonen wants kindle-like device with a real browser engine and Web access
  282. # [10:43] <jgraham> Does the kindle make books continuous or paged?
  283. # [10:46] * Philip` assumes that foldability doesn't have the right combination of usefulness and cheapness and robustness to be marketable yet, but maybe they'll solve some of those problems in the next ten years
  284. # [10:50] <Hixie> ok well i see why the ID number went up non-consecutively
  285. # [10:50] <hsivonen> content/html/document/src/nsHTMLContentSink.cpp
  286. # [10:50] <hsivonen> oops. sorry
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  292. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> what would be a good description of the "challenge" attribute on the <keygen> element?
  293. # [11:14] <Hixie> i thought "challenge" was pretty descriptive of everything to do with <keygen>, myself
  294. # [11:14] <Hixie> as i understand it it's just a string that gets put in the key
  295. # [11:15] <Hixie> (to prevent replay attacks maybe?)
  296. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> ok, I guess I'll just go with "a challenge string that is submitted along with the public key"
  297. # [11:16] * hsivonen is surprised to learn about the Shift_JIS to Win31J mapping
  298. # [11:17] <Hixie> i didn't verify it
  299. # [11:17] <Hixie> so if it's wrong let me know
  300. # [11:17] <Hixie> i'll be very happy to remove it
  301. # [11:17] <hsivonen> I guess it's logical that the stardard names are bunk and compat requires MS extensions
  302. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm not suggesting it's wrong. just that I'm suprised.
  303. # [11:18] <Hixie> i wouldn't be surprised if it was wrong, anne pointed out the guy said conflicting things about shift-jis in the e-mail
  304. # [11:20] <zcorpan> what was conflicting? wasn't it suggested that the mappings should be shift-jis -> something and shift_jis -> something else
  305. # [11:23] <Hixie> right, but that seems unlikely in the extreme
  306. # [11:23] <Hixie> well
  307. # [11:23] <Hixie> unlikely may be the wrong word
  308. # [11:23] <Hixie> :-)
  309. # [11:26] <Hixie> ok i really should sleep
  310. # [11:27] <annevk42> zcorpan, the conflict is that Unicode matching rules assume Shift-JIS and Shift_JIS are identical
  311. # [11:29] <annevk42> always when encoding comes up as subject I'd really like to solve it, but then I realize I don't really have time :/
  312. # [11:29] <annevk42> it also seems a lot of tedious work to figure out what maps to what
  313. # [11:38] <Mrmil> Hixie: what time is it? :)
  314. # [11:38] <zcorpan> Mrmil: bed time
  315. # [11:39] <Mrmil> zcorpan: O'Reilly
  316. # [11:42] <zcorpan> yay, "we now have one major vendor supporting [HTML5] (Google)" - http://opengardensblog.futuretext.com/archives/2009/06/why_do_competit.html
  317. # [11:42] <zcorpan> now we just wait for the other vendors to support HTML5, too
  318. # [11:43] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@67.180.199.19)
  319. # [11:43] <hsivonen> I want a greasemonkey script that redirects faqs.org URLs to tools.ietf.org URLs
  320. # [11:44] <zcorpan> oh it says a few paragraphs later that there are other vendors supporting it, too
  321. # [11:45] <hsivonen> I need to write down that the IETF rejects kings, presidents and voting
  322. # [11:46] <zcorpan> i wonder if the non-Internet world will move to the IETF model
  323. # [11:47] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
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  327. # [11:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: how would UA-driven video full screen work with site-branded JS-based controls?
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  330. # [11:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you use native controls in full screen
  331. # [11:49] * hsivonen notes that YouTube shows branded controls in Flash full screen
  332. # [11:49] <annevk42> does Flash even have native controls?
  333. # [11:49] <annevk42> admittedly for advertising it might be bad
  334. # [11:50] <zcorpan> JS controls for full screen would have to use F11 and media=projection
  335. # [11:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@80.187.147.85)
  336. # [11:50] <hsivonen> I'm all for native controls if the brand manager of YouTube can accept it
  337. # [11:52] <hsivonen> media=projection full screen would defeat the point of moving to fully-accelerated hardware video on mobile without a CSS compositor
  338. # [11:55] * Joins: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
  339. # [11:55] <annevk42> hsivonen, they sort of do on the iPhone
  340. # [11:55] <hsivonen> ok. I haven't tried <video> on the iPhone
  341. # [11:56] <hsivonen> (I want a phone like that but without the carrier deal and the restrictions on app installation)
  342. # [12:06] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-June/020177.html will be valuable when people complain that html5 chages the semantics of certain elements
  343. # [12:07] <zcorpan> people seem to forget or ignore or not be aware of the fact that the semantics of elements have changed between html2 and html4
  344. # [12:08] <zcorpan> maybe it would be worth to document how each element is defined in the history of html
  345. # [12:08] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@220.109.219.244)
  346. # [12:09] <Philip`> If OS X is in a state where it refuses to open any applications, and refuses to shut down because it thinks some application I tried to open is still open and won't shut down, what am I meant to do? :-(
  347. # [12:11] <jgraham> Philip`: Hold down the power button?
  348. # [12:12] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  349. # [12:12] <Philip`> Hmm, "force quit" lets me kill the offending applications
  350. # [12:12] <Philip`> but now I've quit everything and there's no menu bar at the top of the screen any more, so I can't select "shutdown" from the menu
  351. # [12:13] <Philip`> Power button isn't a very elegant solution, but seems to work
  352. # [12:13] * hsivonen wishes OS X had a working panic button for "kill all processes, flush filesystems caches, reboot"
  353. # [12:13] <hsivonen> AFAICT, power button fails the flush filesystem caches point
  354. # [12:15] <zcorpan> i guess the power button should be that panic button
  355. # [12:17] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  357. # [12:19] <Philip`> zcorpan: If the power button was that button, what would you do when the filesystem cache flusher had hung?
  358. # [12:21] <Lachy> hsivonen, re "I want a phone like that but without the carrier deal and the restrictions on app installation" -- a jailbroken iPhone bought without a plan in Australia by paying a small unlocking fee would meet your needs
  359. # [12:21] <Lachy> (unlike many other countries, Australia doesn't seem to permit exclusivity like in the uS)
  360. # [12:21] <jgraham> An Android G! dev phone would meet those needs
  361. # [12:21] <jgraham> G1
  362. # [12:22] <jgraham> (without requiring jailbreaking, I think)
  363. # [12:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't want to pay for a jailbroken phone, since my money would be a vote for the DRM-to-install-code model
  364. # [12:23] <zcorpan> Philip`: i guess if you hold the button for long enough it will force turn off
  365. # [12:23] <Lachy> well, you'd have to jailbreak it yourself. But my point was that you can buy an iphone that isn't locked to a specific carrier
  366. # [12:26] * zcorpan has just discovered a whole new way to fold tortillas
  367. # [12:27] <zcorpan> wonder why i haven't thought of it before
  368. # [12:28] <zcorpan> cut it in half, roll it along the straight line, fold the bottom, then fill it
  369. # [12:29] <Lachy> zcorpan, how does cutting a tortilla in half help with folding it?
  370. # [12:30] <Lachy> I don't understand how you can roll it and fold the bottom before filling it either
  371. # [12:30] <Lachy> since you need to fill it when it's flat, then roll it
  372. # [12:30] <zcorpan> Lachy: it doesn't directly but it makes it easier to fill
  373. # [12:30] <zcorpan> why do you need to fill it first and not last?
  374. # [12:30] <Lachy> I really don't understand how
  375. # [12:31] <Lachy> because if you roll it first, then you need to try and fill it through a small hole in one end
  376. # [12:32] <Lachy> that's bound to be a messy experience
  377. # [12:32] <zcorpan> the whole doesn't need to be so small
  378. # [12:32] <zcorpan> and since i cut it in half it was actually not messy at all
  379. # [12:33] <zcorpan> s/w//
  380. # [12:33] <Lachy> maybe I need to see it to understand it, cause I'm trying to imagine a non-messy way to fill it
  381. # [12:34] <Lachy> and I can't
  382. # [12:34] <zcorpan> i just use a fork
  383. # [12:34] <zcorpan> it might help in understanding that i fill it with fajitas
  384. # [12:34] <Lachy> so you take half a tortialla, make it a cone shape and fill it?
  385. # [12:34] * Quits: RvW (n=chatzill@81.173.127.124) (Remote closed the connection)
  386. # [12:35] <zcorpan> yup
  387. # [12:35] <Lachy> but then you only get a half-size meal
  388. # [12:35] <zcorpan> but you can eat twice the amount :)
  389. # [12:36] <Lachy> it's so much easy to place the tortialla in your hand, fill it in the middle and then wrap the whole tortilla around the filling
  390. # [12:37] <zcorpan> maybe i suck at doing it (even though people around me usually have more problem with it than me) but i found this to be less messy
  391. # [12:38] <Lachy> sure, I've found many other people are clueless when it comes to filling them too
  392. # [12:40] <Lachy> but I wonder, do the Swedish like to put real hot sauce on their mexican food? The Norwegian variety of hot sauce is, unfortunately, very mild
  393. # [12:40] <zcorpan> in sweden there's usually three grades - mind, medium and hot
  394. # [12:40] <Lachy> and even in many restaurants here, if you ask for hot, it comes back medium at best
  395. # [12:40] <zcorpan> i usually use the "hot" and it's not very hot
  396. # [12:41] <zcorpan> so i guess the answer to the question is "no"
  397. # [12:41] <Lachy> sure, they sell 3 grades of hot sauce here in norway too. But even the jar labelled Hot, is mild by comparison with what I'm used to
  398. # [12:42] <Lachy> I guess they just sell the same stuff in both countries. IIRC, there's both swedish and norwegian instructions on the various mexican kits
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  401. # [12:44] <jgraham> Tune in next week for another episode of "Lachy does Macho"!
  402. # [12:44] <jgraham> (I joke, I joke)
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  421. # [13:46] <Lachy> oops, I sent that webstorage mail to public-html instead of public-webapps.
  422. # [13:46] <Lachy> oh well, hopefully that won't matter
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  449. # [14:05] <hsivonen> my sarcasm detector doesn't work on this comment: http://www.molly.com/2009/06/02/the-real-why-xhtml-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-2446810
  450. # [14:06] <hsivonen> "I am just glad that Steve says that XHTML as text/html is fine. Admittedly I hadn’t lost much sleep over this before but now I can officially ignore some of the more dogmatic viewpoints on things like that."
  451. # [14:06] <annevk42> no sarcasm there I think
  452. # [14:07] <hsivonen> ok
  453. # [14:07] <annevk42> his site uses XHTML and his name doesn't ring any bells with respect to this "debate"
  454. # [14:09] * Joins: shepazutoo (n=schepers@adsl-221-12-162.rmo.bellsouth.net)
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  456. # [14:13] <Lachy> this mail refers to some html4all discussions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0201.html - but the html4all mailing list archives show no activity since February. http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/mailman/private/list_html4all.org/ Do they have some other secret list now?
  457. # [14:14] <Lachy> unless Leif just meant previous discussions from several months ago
  458. # [14:16] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  459. # [14:16] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-62d2cf3ab67127db)
  460. # [14:19] <Lachy> anyway, using <figure><summary>...</summary> <table>...</table></figure> would be an interesting solution if there's a legitimate problem for it to solve (I'm staying neutral for now on the debate about whether or not there is a problem though)
  461. # [14:33] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  462. # [14:38] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@92.37.73.247)
  463. # [14:42] <hsivonen> Does Chrome on Mac use Quartz instead of Skia?
  464. # [14:43] <hsivonen> no <video> in Mac Chrome yet
  465. # [14:43] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-206-1-119.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  469. # [14:44] * zcorpan fails to see how <figure><summary>...</summary> <table>...</table></figure> is better than <table><caption>...</caption>...</table>
  470. # [14:45] <zcorpan> certainly the latter works better in existing AT
  471. # [14:47] <Lachy> zcorpan, the latter would be better if, as I said, there were a legitimate problem being solved with the current approach of using <caption>.
  472. # [14:47] <Lachy> s/the latter/the fomer/
  473. # [14:49] <jgraham> I fail to see how either is better than <table><caption><details>...<legend>...</legend></caption>
  474. # [14:50] <Lachy> jgraham, using details like that seems unintuitive
  475. # [14:50] <jgraham> Lachy: Almost no one is going to do it anyway
  476. # [14:50] <jgraham> and for those people that do it doesn't seem that hard
  477. # [14:51] <jgraham> (since they will presumably have been trained/advocated into putting more information for AT users into their table)
  478. # [14:51] <Lachy> personally, I prefer just writing a summary in the prose before the table using an ordinary <p>. I fail to see why it needs to be directly associated with the table by markup
  479. # [14:52] <Lachy> I don't particularly like the idea of writing the summary in the caption, since captions are supposed to be short
  480. # [14:55] <Philip`> That's easy to solve - just stop supposing that captions should be short
  481. # [14:56] <jgraham> Lachy: Captions, in general are not short. That is a weird HTMLism
  482. # [14:56] <jgraham> or rather HTML4ism
  483. # [14:57] <zcorpan> i put the summary in <p> in http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results
  484. # [14:57] <zcorpan> maybe i should update it to put it in the caption
  485. # [14:57] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  486. # [14:57] <Lachy> they should be 1 or 2 sentences, just enough to describe the content of the figure/table
  487. # [14:58] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  488. # [15:04] <Philip`> Why should they?
  489. # [15:04] <beowulf> Lachy: you suppose 1 or 2 sentences is enough to describe the content
  490. # [15:05] <Philip`> You could always make it two very long sentences with lots of semicolons
  491. # [15:05] <Lachy> because the content should be sufficiently self describing to not need an excessively long caption. Also, in most books and newspapers where I've seen captions, they're usually quite short
  492. # [15:14] * riven` is now known as riven
  493. # [15:15] <jgraham> Lachy: Try writing a scientific paper with the major results in a table and fitting the caption into 1/2 sentences. It often isn't possible
  494. # [15:16] <jgraham> (I guess you could use <figure> for that case but it's not really clear why there should be two ways to do it with some arbitary cutoff based on length)
  495. # [15:17] <Lachy> jgraham, can you give an example of such a long caption?
  496. # [15:19] <zcorpan> Philip`: could you grep for pages that have non-whitespace and "-->" on the last non-whitespace line of scripts?
  497. # [15:20] <zcorpan> ie and opera have interesting behavior where the last line is stripped if it ends with -->
  498. # [15:21] <zcorpan> in opera the line doesn't get stripped if it also contains //
  499. # [15:21] <Lachy> which versions of IE have you tested?
  500. # [15:21] <zcorpan> Lachy: ie8
  501. # [15:21] <jgraham> Lachy: Consider http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0603449v2 Table 2 has a rather long caption. Many other tables do not. Insisting that they should be different elements doesn't make much sense
  502. # [15:21] <zcorpan> in ie it doesn't get stripped if the line contains // or <!-- (i think)
  503. # [15:21] <Lachy> ah, then maybe they're complaining about a syntax error if the the --> isn't commented out with //
  504. # [15:22] <Philip`> zcorpan: Do you mean something like "^\S+-->\s*</script>"?
  505. # [15:22] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-164-130-180.range86-164.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  506. # [15:23] <zcorpan> Philip`: there could be whitespace on the line, just not only whitespace followed -->
  507. # [15:23] <zcorpan> foo = 'bar'; -->
  508. # [15:23] <zcorpan> </script>
  509. # [15:24] * Joins: allanmac1 (n=allanmac@static-68-236-124-210.bos.east.verizon.net)
  510. # [15:24] <Lachy> jgraham, the captions in that contain a lot of content that I would have thought more appropriate for the main content of the paper where referring to the relevant figures
  511. # [15:24] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12) ("Leaving")
  512. # [15:24] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oops, yes
  513. # [15:25] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  514. # [15:25] <jgraham> Lachy: That is a typical style for those papers. They are rahter optimised for people using figures and tables as references without also having to reread the whole paper
  515. # [15:25] <Philip`> zcorpan: Do you want to ignore lines that use //--> (or similar)?
  516. # [15:25] <zcorpan> Philip`: yes, ignore lines that have //
  517. # [15:25] <Lachy> well, I'd consider that bad form, but ok
  518. # [15:26] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-206-1-119.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving")
  519. # [15:26] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8ac1981ccb8edcd6) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  520. # [15:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: What if they start with <!-- on that line?
  521. # [15:28] <Philip`> (Lots of people write <script><!-- comment --></script>)
  522. # [15:28] * Joins: arun__ (n=arun@adsl-76-200-191-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  523. # [15:30] <Lachy> Philip`, I've seen that done in order to prevent some broken backend systems from mistakenly outputting empty scripts as <script src="..." />
  524. # [15:30] <Lachy> so they put in a comment to make it appear non-empty
  525. # [15:30] <zcorpan> Philip`: if they are overwhelming then yeah it would be good to remove those that have <!-- on the same line, too
  526. # [15:30] <jgraham> I think it is the cases where there is a --> but no <!-- or // that are the most interesting
  527. # [15:30] * Joins: doublec_ (n=doublec@118-93-190-108.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  528. # [15:32] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-1356a55f14092d39)
  529. # [15:32] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  530. # [15:33] * Joins: doublec__ (n=doublec@118-93-178-63.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  531. # [15:33] * Philip` searches for (?i)^\s*(?!//|<!--)\S((?!//|<!--).)*-->\s*</script>
  532. # [15:33] * Quits: doublec__ (n=doublec@118-93-178-63.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  533. # [15:33] <Philip`> (but only searching individual lines, so it won't find anything if the </script> is on the next line after the content)
  534. # [15:34] <Lachy> if you did the search using just (?i)^\s*(?!//|<!--)\S((?!//|<!--).)*-->\s* would you get too many false positives?
  535. # [15:35] <jgraham> Philip`: If possible it would be nice to get cases where the </script> is on the next line too
  536. # [15:35] * Quits: doublec_ (n=doublec@118-93-190-108.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  537. # [15:35] <jgraham> Although I guess that would be slower
  538. # [15:35] <Philip`> Lachy: I expect that would find a bazillion HTML comments that have nothing to do with scripts
  539. # [15:36] <Lachy> oh, right, so you need a way to limit the search to within script elements
  540. # [15:39] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  541. # [15:42] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  542. # [15:43] * Joins: VeXocide (i=vexocide@snail.stack.nl)
  543. # [15:43] * Philip` tries running it across multiple lines, but it'll take forever (since the single-line one hasn't even finished yet)
  544. # [15:44] <Philip`> I really ought to parallelise my grep :-/
  545. # [15:46] <zcorpan> Philip`: i'm not in a hurry. :) sorry for using your cpu
  546. # [15:47] <jgraham> "Aplologies for increasing the entropy of the universe"
  547. # [15:47] <jgraham> *Apologies
  548. # [15:48] <Philip`> Ooh, the first one finished
  549. # [15:48] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/comment-close-at-end-of-script.txt
  550. # [15:49] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  551. # [15:49] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks
  552. # [15:51] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-151-16.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  553. # [15:52] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  554. # [15:59] <zcorpan> Philip`: the first few pages of those use //--> but your .txt says /-->
  555. # [16:01] <zcorpan> though www.mp3music.co.il/forums/topic/?id=6&guid=MNRQFBZGBU12252008235139 does use a single slash
  556. # [16:02] <zcorpan> so maybe www.oclc.org/services/preservation/ has changed
  557. # [16:02] <Philip`> zcorpan: The pages like http://www.oclc.org/services/preservation/http:/www.oclc.org/programsandresearch/kilgouraward/http:/www.oclc.org/research/http:/www.oclc.org/support/systemalerts/default.asp say "/--></script>" twice when I look at them
  558. # [16:02] <Philip`> s/twice/thrice/
  559. # [16:02] <Philip`> at the bottom
  560. # [16:03] <zcorpan> ah
  561. # [16:03] <zcorpan> i thought your script emitted several urls
  562. # [16:03] <Philip`> Only one per line
  563. # [16:04] <Philip`> That is a pretty weird URL, though
  564. # [16:04] <zcorpan> i guess it's not too bad if a 404 page doesn't work correctly :)
  565. # [16:06] <Philip`> Hmm, my other grep has reached chunk 6 out of f
  566. # [16:06] <Philip`> so it might take a long time
  567. # [16:06] <zcorpan> http://www.onpointevents.com/PPF/Page/1/resources.asp has a script that sets the today variable but it's not used anywhere, so it wouldn't break
  568. # [16:07] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/comment-close-at-end-of-script-across-multiple-lines.txt is some of the multi-line grep's output
  569. # [16:08] <Philip`> (Apologies for the barely-readable output format)
  570. # [16:08] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks. it's readable enough :)
  571. # [16:09] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  572. # [16:09] <zcorpan> the script at mp3music.co.il/lyrics2/text.aspx?id=26601 would stop working
  573. # [16:10] <zcorpan> but it doesn't seem like a vital script
  574. # [16:10] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@69.181.143.54)
  575. # [16:11] * Quits: mgrdcm (n=mgrdcm@69.246.244.191)
  576. # [16:16] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@92.37.73.247) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  577. # [16:18] <zcorpan> it breaks a script at http://www.marika.com/productinfo_item_43-dc_614-md_614-pd_564-cd_on-sn_5.htm but i don't know what the script does - the page seems to work in firefox
  578. # [16:18] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-70-215.dynamic.amis.net)
  579. # [16:20] <zcorpan> if(lt){d.write('<'+'!-- ');}//--></script><noscript>
  580. # [16:20] <zcorpan> <img src="http://adlik.akavita.com/bin/lik?id=28254"
  581. # [16:20] <zcorpan> border=0 height=31 width=88 alt="Akavita: каталог, рейтинг, счетчик для сайтов Беларуси">
  582. # [16:20] <zcorpan> </noscript><script language="JavaScript"><!--
  583. # [16:20] <zcorpan> if(lt){d.write('--'+'>');} --></script>
  584. # [16:20] <zcorpan> http://mogbiz.by/modules.php?name=pages&pa=list_pag&cid=32
  585. # [16:21] <zcorpan> won't break since the second <script> tag will be part of an html comment
  586. # [16:21] <Philip`> Ouch
  587. # [16:22] * Parts: annevk42 (n=annevk@gw.sophia.w3.org)
  588. # [16:24] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-70-194.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  589. # [16:25] <zcorpan> yay i've gone through http://philip.html5.org/data/comment-close-at-end-of-script.txt - none of them actually breaks in functionality afaict, a few of them would cause a script error
  590. # [16:25] <zcorpan> on to multiline
  591. # [16:26] <zcorpan> <script>
  592. # [16:26] <zcorpan> <!---
  593. # [16:26] <zcorpan> var g_date="2005.01.12 00:00:00"
  594. # [16:26] <zcorpan> document.write(g_date.substring(0,10));
  595. # [16:26] <zcorpan> --->
  596. # [16:26] <zcorpan> </script>
  597. # [16:26] <zcorpan> sigh
  598. # [16:27] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  599. # [16:27] <zcorpan> http://www.ctax.org.cn/was40/search?channelid=39843 does break
  600. # [16:28] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p4050-ipbf3009marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  601. # [16:30] <Philip`> Oops, X crashed, which killed my SSH session, which killed my grep
  602. # [16:30] <Philip`> I hope that partial list is adequate for now
  603. # [16:30] <zcorpan> yeah it's good enough
  604. # [16:30] <zcorpan> thanks again
  605. # [16:31] <zcorpan> http://www.modelenium.co.uk/models/TACA-A319--GJTAI149.aspx just tries to disable right click so not too serious if the script doesn't run :)
  606. # [16:31] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-164-130-180.range86-164.btcentralplus.com)
  607. # [16:32] <zcorpan> http://www.stadtguide24.de/index.php?myGeoId=14556&site=edit&lang=de has an ie-specific script with document.all check so doesn't matter
  608. # [16:35] <gsnedders> http://s.ytimg.com/yt/js/base_all_with_bidi-vfl101077.js is being really slow taking YouTube down here :\
  609. # [16:35] <gsnedders> s.ytimg.com is slow in general :\
  610. # [16:36] <zcorpan> http://www.meganime.org/foro/viewtopic.php?p=316494 PreloadImages() will break, but only breaks the *pre*load so not too serious
  611. # [16:37] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-164-130-180.range86-164.btcentralplus.com) ("Adios intarwebs.")
  612. # [16:38] * Parts: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-70-215.dynamic.amis.net)
  613. # [16:38] <zcorpan> http://www.fise.org/associazioni/assioma/index.php?we_objectID=9643&we_objectTID=425 - breaks the image swap in the menu. not too serious, either
  614. # [16:38] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  615. # [16:38] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
  616. # [16:38] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  617. # [16:39] <zcorpan> http://www.wholesalemegamall.com/index.php?c=office&n=1084128&i=B000LYAX1G&a=buy&m=All&p=1&x=Panasonic_Dect_60_Series_3_Handset_Cordless_Phone_System_with_Answering_System_KX_TG1033S has ie-specific script
  618. # [16:41] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-171-214.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  619. # [16:41] <zcorpan> http://www.diadora.de/planetnewsplus/misc/tell_a_friend/tell.php?id=20070301120209 also breaks preload / image swap (but i don't know which images)
  620. # [16:43] <zcorpan> http://www.foodireland.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=w580420&Category_Code=caseflour&Product_Count=4 - breaks the script that prints out today's date
  621. # [16:46] <zcorpan> http://www.emumax.com/emumax_tvnews_detail.asp?id=188 - seems to break a tracker script or something
  622. # [16:50] <zcorpan> seems to possibly break the comment form in http://www.langya.cn/travel/lydx/200801/t137487.htm
  623. # [16:53] <zcorpan> the gay.sexe-photos site uses <script language="vbscript">
  624. # [16:53] * zcorpan realises that he just watched porn at work
  625. # [16:54] * gsnedders facepalms
  626. # [16:56] <zcorpan> community.bravo.de/boards/viewtopic.php?t=134678: /* ]]> */-->
  627. # [16:57] <zcorpan> that works in spidermonkey but breaks in nitro and v8
  628. # [16:59] * Joins: mgrdcm (n=mgrdcm@65.111.247.194)
  629. # [17:00] <zcorpan> http://www.rapido.nl/care-plus-click-away-bite-relieve-travel-accessoire-artikelnummer-91654.html probably breaks some progress bar script
  630. # [17:01] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  631. # [17:02] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  632. # [17:02] * Parts: allanmac1 (n=allanmac@static-68-236-124-210.bos.east.verizon.net)
  633. # [17:03] <zcorpan> well the rest just seem to be more of the same stuff
  634. # [17:04] <virtuelv> well, Opera summer party coming up in 9 seconds.
  635. # [17:04] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  636. # [17:05] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  637. # [17:06] <zcorpan> crap, http://www.bbsone.com/html.php?file=bbs/business/gb/messages/908.htm would break a link
  638. # [17:08] <zcorpan> http://www.hjsflower.com/flower/show.asp?id=A3004&bookid=961&anid=3&nid=34 might break the form
  639. # [17:09] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@69.181.143.54)
  640. # [17:09] <zcorpan> http://www.yeongnam.com/yeongnam/html/edu/university/article.shtml?id=20090112.010330807390001 breaks form validation (not too serious)
  641. # [17:09] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  642. # [17:12] <zcorpan> i'm through the list!
  643. # [17:12] <zcorpan> so let's see
  644. # [17:14] <Philip`> Let me know if you want a longer list ;-)
  645. # [17:14] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  646. # [17:15] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  647. # [17:15] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  648. # [17:15] <zcorpan> 2 with missing content, 1 with broken link, 2 something with forms, 2 with a progress bar something, a few with preload/imageswap and the rest didn't really break anything
  649. # [17:15] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  650. # [17:16] <zcorpan> so that's about 5 pages breaking in functionality
  651. # [17:19] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  652. # [17:19] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-70-215.dynamic.amis.net)
  653. # [17:20] <zcorpan> (since i didn't see any progress bar and the imageswap isn't really functionality)
  654. # [17:21] <zcorpan> wonder if the other vendors want to implement this
  655. # [17:25] * Joins: allanmac1 (n=allanmac@dsl017-091-222.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  656. # [17:27] * zcorpan updates http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#HTML_comments
  657. # [17:30] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachy@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
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  665. # [18:15] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
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  688. # [20:17] * gsnedders grumbles at the W3C's own inability to follow its own schemas
  689. # [20:18] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip106.unival.com)
  690. # [20:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: are you surprised?
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  694. # [20:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: Knowing how many bugs I've filed on this already, no :P
  695. # [20:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  696. # [20:32] <gsnedders> Actually, in some ways, I'm surprised I haven't found all the issues yet.
  697. # [20:32] * gsnedders wonders if he's doing a Philip` and reporting issues on his own suggestions
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  717. # [22:07] <hober> http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/06/fbml-yml-osml-oh-my.html
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  726. # [23:17] <gsnedders> ezyang: We need to deal with stuff at a Unicode level in the TreeBuilder so we can coerce what we have into an XML infoset, which means we will either need to decode the data _again_, or we just use an array of codepoints, which eats memory…
  727. # [23:17] * gsnedders sighs
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  730. # [23:19] <ezyang> Oh, we want XML infoset support?
  731. # [23:19] <gsnedders> ezyang: We need to, if we are to use DOM…
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  733. # [23:19] <gsnedders> ezyang: It's the cause of all 10 current exceptions thrown
  734. # [23:19] <ezyang> Well, I have no intentions of staying on DOM
  735. # [23:20] <gsnedders> ezyang: How are you going to write anything in userland with anywhere near decent perf? :)
  736. # [23:20] <ezyang> Write it in C and PHP
  737. # [23:20] <gsnedders> ezyang: Not re-distributable.
  738. # [23:20] <gsnedders> (Well, sure, it is, but if you want to ship it in normal software…)
  739. # [23:20] <ezyang> Performance is "not re-distributable"
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  741. # [23:20] <ezyang> We'll obviously have a PHP drop-in replacement
  742. # [23:21] <ezyang> A userland tree implementation can have decent performance, given some concessions on the tree-builder and API side
  743. # [23:21] <ezyang> Decent enough, at least, for anyone who wants to casually use the library
  744. # [23:21] <gsnedders> What would be nice would be to get DOM to do no checks when strictErrorHandling = false
  745. # [23:22] <ezyang> What's more likely to happen is that userspace SimpleTree will blow up memory usage
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  747. # [23:22] <ezyang> (not that DOM doesn't do that already, but you can't see that if you profile)
  748. # [23:22] <ezyang> gsnedders: We filed a bug on that a long time. Didn't work.
  749. # [23:22] <ezyang> *a long time ago
  750. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Didn't work in what way?
  751. # [23:23] <bdodson> Hi, can anyone tell me how websockets will handle/support binary data? Will you be able to download the bytes of a jpeg through it and load it in the DOM for example?
  752. # [23:23] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@17.244.69.85)
  753. # [23:23] <Hixie> eventually, yes
  754. # [23:23] <Hixie> not in the first version though
  755. # [23:24] <ezyang> As in, they were like, WONTFIX, and proceeded to add the check for the place they missed
  756. # [23:24] <ezyang> Let me dig up the bug
  757. # [23:24] <ezyang> (we had this conversation before)
  758. # [23:24] <gsnedders> http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=44648&edit=1?
  759. # [23:25] <gsnedders> That's the only thing I find looking for http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=44648&edit=1
  760. # [23:25] <ezyang> Ya, that's it
  761. # [23:25] <gsnedders> *strictErrorHandling
  762. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Clipboard fail.
  763. # [23:25] <gsnedders> I got told that it could be done… if I wrote the patch.
  764. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Which is all fine and well… if it isn't for the fact I don't know C. :P
  765. # [23:25] <ezyang> It's not that difficult a patch
  766. # [23:25] <ezyang> PHP insulates you sufficiently from actually C-ness
  767. # [23:25] <ezyang> The hard problem is figuring out how to compile PHP
  768. # [23:25] <gsnedders> I couldn't work out how to get the strictErrorHandling property
  769. # [23:26] <ezyang> Hm.
  770. # [23:26] <gsnedders> If I could work that out, I could probably write a patch :P
  771. # [23:26] <ezyang> That's slightly non-trivial
  772. # [23:26] <ezyang> Anyway, I still argue, that's not tenable for the sake of portability
  773. # [23:26] <gsnedders> How so? Older shipped versions?
  774. # [23:27] <ezyang> Yep
  775. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Agreed, but in the longer-term it would be nice to be able to use it.
  776. # [23:27] <ezyang> Sure.
  777. # [23:27] <ezyang> I wonder if SimpleXML does checking...
  778. # [23:27] <gsnedders> In places.
  779. # [23:28] <bdodson> does anyone have basic websocket support now?
  780. # [23:28] <ezyang> :-(
  781. # [23:28] * gsnedders wishes they would fix XMLWriter so you could actually rely on it outputting XML.
  782. # [23:28] <Philip`> An XML serialiser that outputs XML? I think you're asking for too much
  783. # [23:29] <gsnedders> http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=41800
  784. # [23:29] <gsnedders> See, it's not a bug!
  785. # [23:29] <ezyang> gsnedders: If you want to take a stab at it again (I probably won't have time for it this weekend), the first thing you'll want to figure out is whether or not it's something stored in the PHP layer, or the libxml layer
  786. # [23:30] <gsnedders> ezyang: I don't care enough. I have too many bad experiences to think I have any chance of it ever being committed.
  787. # [23:31] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z922e.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  788. # [23:31] <gsnedders> http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=44619
  789. # [23:32] <ezyang> They're going to fix it The Right Way! No Really!
  790. # [23:32] <ezyang> More seriously,
  791. # [23:33] * gsnedders adds XMLWriter grips to his list of problems with PHP
  792. # [23:33] <gsnedders> *gripe
  793. # [23:33] <ezyang> I think the PHP dev community is not too receptive about patches unless you bug them a lot about it
  794. # [23:33] <gsnedders> *gripes
  795. # [23:33] <ezyang> You will almost certainly not get a patch that big into PHP5.2. Maybe PHP5.3
  796. # [23:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: Are you foolishly expecting the XML serialiser to deal with the issues of encoding data so it can be serialised as XML? Clearly that should be the user's responsibility
  797. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: I am expecting an XML serializer to always output something that meets the document production in the XML spec.
  798. # [23:34] <Philip`> It's a bug that they've even got any methods other than $xml->write('<test>blabla</test>')
  799. # [23:34] <Hixie> bdodson: webkit and mozilla are working on it, i believe
  800. # [23:35] <gsnedders> ezyang: I bet you 5.3 will be in commit freeze by the time I get around to anything like writing a patch…
  801. # [23:35] <Philip`> (It's up to you to make sure the data is encoded properly)
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  804. # [23:36] <ezyang> So, if PHP didn't have binary strings by default, this would make sense
  805. # [23:36] <bdodson> Hixie: great, I guess I'll wait patiently for a bit :)
  806. # [23:36] <gsnedders> ezyang: s/by default/always/
  807. # [23:38] <Hixie> bdodson: you and me both!
  808. # [23:38] <ezyang> Well, if most of the strings whizzing around are UTF-16, and then I want to put a binary string into the XML writer
  809. # [23:38] <ezyang> I'd say it has two options: refuse to do anything with it, or base64 encode it
  810. # [23:38] <bdodson> Hixie, huh, here's a video claiming minefield has WebSocket support ...
  811. # [23:38] <bdodson> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrV9jJQn_MA
  812. # [23:39] <ezyang> "Fixing it" so that it's well-formed UTF-whatever is totally not the correct behavior.
  813. # [23:39] <gsnedders> ezyang: I'd expect it to die.
  814. # [23:39] <ezyang> And then, you can't even do that the smart way in PHP, because it doesn't have any notion of types
  815. # [23:39] <ezyang> So this won't get fixed until PHP 6, when we get Unicode strings
  816. # [23:40] <Hixie> bdodson: that's a demo of the work they're doing, it's not in yet i don't think
  817. # [23:40] <ezyang> PHP is currently operating an abstraction level too low
  818. # [23:40] <ezyang> And this is a leak.
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  820. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Up to 12 items on my list of problems with PHP…
  821. # [23:47] <ezyang> i,i Only twelve?
  822. # [23:47] <gsnedders> So far :)
  823. # [23:47] <gsnedders> These are mainly fairly high-level issues.
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  829. # Session Close: Sat Jun 06 00:00:00 2009

The end :)