/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 08 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham> http://james.html5.org/table_descriptions/
  4. # [00:01] <jgraham> Work in progress, please don't email public-html about it yet
  5. # [00:01] <jgraham> Feedback here or by email welcome (but I won't deal with it until after I sleep)
  6. # [00:02] <jgraham> testcases for different suggestions for marking up table descriptions
  7. # [00:03] <jgraham> ideas taken from the wiki page although I ignored <description> or whatever it's called since that has unrealistic requirements
  8. # [00:03] <jgraham> (several paragraphs of detailed descriptions)
  9. # [00:04] <jgraham> and I ignored <table><details> because that is just silly
  10. # [00:04] <jgraham> Although I can add that if people want to see it
  11. # [00:04] <jgraham> Also I haven't validated the pages or anything so they are probably full of basic errors
  12. # [00:06] <jgraham> Have I already mentioned that <legend> is a rather irritating element to use with <details> and <figure>? It really makes all the examples much worse
  13. # [00:07] <jgraham> Right that is enough soloquiy for now. Otherwise I will have gsnedders writing an essay on me
  14. # [00:07] <jgraham> Which would just be embarassing, frankly
  15. # [00:07] <gsnedders> …
  16. # [00:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-154-176.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  17. # [00:10] * gsnedders wonders what to say…
  18. # [00:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: When did I ever write an essay on anyone!?
  19. # [00:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: e.g. for your english ah
  20. # [00:13] <gsnedders> That wasn't on anyone.
  21. # [00:13] <jgraham> .me really is going now
  22. # [00:13] <gsnedders> It was on several works of fictio!
  23. # [00:13] <gsnedders> *fiction
  24. # [00:14] <jgraham> All written by the same someone
  25. # [00:14] <jgraham> gn
  26. # [00:14] <gsnedders> nn
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  31. # [01:38] <heycam> anyone know if there's a flattened dtd for mathml somewhere?
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  33. # [01:40] <Dashiva> Aren't there programs for creating those?
  34. # [01:41] <heycam> probably. i don't use dtds enough to know though.
  35. # [01:41] <heycam> maybe i can just substitute in for the <!ENTITY> bits and hope it works
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  57. # [06:55] <Hixie> Lachy_: where are you these days, geographically?
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  104. # [10:15] <hsivonen> It seems to me that when parsing as UTF-16 tentatively, one might as well do it confidently always, because there's no way to get a reasonable reason to revise the guess.
  105. # [10:15] <Hixie> yeah i considered changing the spec to say that instead
  106. # [10:15] <Hixie> i believe it's equivalent to what the spec says now, actually
  107. # [10:16] <Hixie> but i couldn't find a good way to say it -- it turns out i'd have to poke things in way more places than the way the spec does now
  108. # [10:16] <hsivonen> UTF-16 is such a mistake
  109. # [10:16] <hsivonen> is the series of learning experiences that affect a lot of people
  110. # [10:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: Nice explaination of web-scale btw
  111. # [10:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  112. # [10:18] <Hixie> not as bad a mistake as UTF-32 and UTF-7! (though they, like UTF-16, both have their place in practice)
  113. # [10:18] <Hixie> if othermaciej was here i'd say he should take the text of http://www.w3.org/mid/4B6CB076-271A-4E9E-AAF8-891C8F4B4A72@iki.fi and put it in the design principles
  114. # [10:32] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  115. # [10:41] <hsivonen> I wish there were some kind of submarine patent craziness 101 that people were required to read before entering a codec debate
  116. # [10:42] <Hixie> and i wish there were no patents, but...
  117. # [10:42] <Hixie> Philip`: yt?
  118. # [10:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: that, too, preferably
  119. # [10:45] <franksalim> how did the patent issues with img play out?
  120. # [10:45] <franksalim> i know about gif
  121. # [10:45] <franksalim> aren't there a lot of image formats that we largely avoid due to patent concerns?
  122. # [10:45] <Hixie> png and jpeg didn't have patent issues that i know of
  123. # [10:45] <hsivonen> franksalim: IIRC, Netscape's lawyers figured that the patents didn't cover decode and Netscape continued shipping decode
  124. # [10:46] <hsivonen> franksalim: IIRC, about boxes in Microsoft software suggest that MS took a license but they also shipped encode in some of their products.
  125. # [10:46] <hsivonen> franksalim: all IIRC and IANAL
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  127. # [10:47] <franksalim> hsivonen, pretty much nobody is a lawyer (PMNIAL)
  128. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: there was the Forgent thing about JPEG, but Forgent went after digital camera manufacturers and not against all kinds of software
  129. # [10:48] <Hixie> dannyb who was posting on whatwg recently is a lawyer, fwiw
  130. # [10:48] <Hixie> expert on software licenses
  131. # [10:48] <hsivonen> franksalim: some software (IIRC, Ghostscript and GIMP) shipped an encoder that didn't compress but produced a bitstream that was readable with an LZW decoder
  132. # [10:48] <jgraham> On an entirely different topic, the requirement that the <caption> be the first child of <table> is non-obvious to the point of uselessness, I guess
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  134. # [10:51] * jgraham is sad that Google think that H.264 decoding is more valuable than patent licenses not being required to read web content
  135. # [10:52] <jgraham> At the very least it makes new entrants to the browser market not backed up by some big company less likely
  136. # [10:52] <Hixie> google supports theora
  137. # [10:52] <Hixie> or rather, chrome does
  138. # [10:52] <jgraham> Hixie: Sure
  139. # [10:53] <jgraham> It's not clear if that's enough
  140. # [10:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm eager to see how Opera plays this
  141. # [10:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: me too :)
  142. # [10:54] <jgraham> Actually I'm interested to see what happens with youtube. Because if they start doing HTML5+H.264 then it puts significant pressure on everyone else to but patent licenses
  143. # [10:55] <jgraham> *buy
  144. # [10:55] <Hixie> youtube is already doing 264 for flash 10 and iphone and apple tv, iirc
  145. # [10:55] <hsivonen> indeed, YouTube weilds a lot of power so let's hope they follow "Don't be Evil"
  146. # [10:56] * Hixie tries to understand http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-ccREL-20080501/#SECTION00071000000000000000 and fails
  147. # [10:56] * hsivonen tried doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations on how much H.264 is going to cost YouTube when the grace period runs out, but I probably misunderstood things
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  149. # [11:01] <annevk2> http://torrentfreak.com/pirate-party-wins-and-enters-the-european-parliament-090607/ is cool
  150. # [11:02] <Hixie> indeed
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  153. # [11:05] * hsivonen expects the Ogg controversy Wikipedia page to grow in whatwg list references in due course :-/
  154. # [11:08] <archtech> Sorry for the OT, but anyone using LaTeX here? Is the syntax for ` and ' turning into quotes getting in the way?
  155. # [11:08] <annevk2> "I'm not so sure. YouTube is very popular despite the fact that its video clips resemble the transmission from the moon landing in 1969." :)
  156. # [11:09] * hsivonen disagrees with howcome's characterization of JPEG2000
  157. # [11:10] <hsivonen> JPEG2000 is pretty sad as a whole
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  159. # [11:11] <hsivonen> but it's nice that JPEG2000 shows how good the old JPEG is after all these years
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  162. # [11:14] <hsivonen> JBIG, for all its patent flaws, at least improves more upon CCITT Group 4 than JPEG2000 improves over JPEG
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  165. # [11:16] <jgraham> http://james.html5.org/table_descriptions/ has been updated a little. If someone could look over that and tell me if I have done anything silly I will email public-html about it
  166. # [11:20] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/summary must be enjoying HTML5 tweets
  167. # [11:37] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@194.102.13.2)
  168. # [11:39] <hsivonen> maikmerten: yeah, the unsigned ActiveX control gets blocked for me, too, in IE8 on XP SP3 on Parallels
  169. # [11:40] <maikmerten> maikmerten, according to some chatting in the videolan irc channel there's a chance VLC will get a signed control soon
  170. # [11:40] <hsivonen> maikmerten: cool
  171. # [11:40] * hsivonen has no idea how much the signing process costs
  172. # [11:41] <Hixie> how on earth do i express <div about="x"><img src="x">...</div> in RDFa without repeating "x"
  173. # [11:41] <Hixie> where ... is a bunch of property/value pairs that hang on the about="x" bit
  174. # [11:41] <hsivonen> maikmerten: Are there releases (deployable binaries with corresponding source drops) for the wikimedia version of cortado?
  175. # [11:42] <hsivonen> I've only found the svn repo and noticed wikimedia's own binary deployment
  176. # [11:42] <maikmerten> hsivonen, vastly outdated ones only. Xiph.org currently is in the process of taking over development http://www.theora.org/cortado/
  177. # [11:42] <hsivonen> maikmerten: ok
  178. # [11:42] <maikmerten> hsivonen, we hope to have releases available "soon"
  179. # [11:43] <hsivonen> maikmerten: great!
  180. # [11:43] <maikmerten> hsivonen, Xiph.org also provides a signed version of Cortado at http://theora.org/cortado.jar. You can directly embed this applet without having a local copy.
  181. # [11:43] <hsivonen> cool
  182. # [11:43] <maikmerten> that thingie is signed with a Xiph.org certificate, though
  183. # [11:43] <maikmerten> *not* by a "real" CA
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  185. # [11:44] <hsivonen> maikmerten: is it a cost thing or a principle thing?
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  187. # [11:44] <maikmerten> hsivonen, definately not a principle thing
  188. # [11:44] <maikmerten> hsivonen, it may be the cost or the effort to get through a proper CA
  189. # [11:46] <hsivonen> maikmerten: donated. (btw, xiph would have benefited from making the amount of donation editable :-)
  190. # [11:47] <maikmerten> (on a side note: I *did* see the latest wave of codec/patent/FUD/not-FUD discussion on the list but currently think I should only join into the fun if I have something constructive to say.)
  191. # [11:47] <maikmerten> hsivonen, thanks!
  192. # [11:51] <maikmerten> (I still remember embarassing myself by doing way-over-the-top stupid posts discussing with Apple representatives. Happens in a heated discussion, I guess, but doesn't help the cause)
  193. # [11:52] <maikmerten> I forwared your donation feedback to xiphmont and also asked for more status on Xiph.org's CA status
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  197. # [11:57] <maikmerten> hsivonen, can you elaborate on your donation-amount problem? xiphmont appears surprised - there should be a way to adjust the amount.
  198. # [12:00] <maikmerten> hsivonen, ah, apparently a "theora donation" is a fixed item at $10.00 - now, that's suboptimal
  199. # [12:00] <maikmerten> (when clicking the donta-button on theora.org)
  200. # [12:00] <maikmerten> *donate
  201. # [12:01] <maikmerten> when clicking the button on xiph.org/donate/ I get to homepage-thingie on paypal... hmmmm.... broken?
  202. # [12:05] * maikmerten is now known as maik|lunch
  203. # [12:11] <annevk2> yeah, I got the same on xiph.org
  204. # [12:11] <annevk2> it asked me to login but I don't have a PayPal account and normally you can pay without having an account
  205. # [12:27] <Hixie> ok bed time
  206. # [12:27] <Hixie> nn
  207. # [12:28] <annevk2> g'night!
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  210. # [12:32] <hsivonen> maik|lunch: yeah, the issue was the when clicking the donation button on the cortado page, the amount was fixed to $10
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  212. # [12:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: NETWORK_NO_SOURCE is inconsistently marked up (sometimes with <code> sometimes not)
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  221. # [12:54] <annevk2> the ways in which some people use "IMHO" make it a completely useless initialism in practice :/
  222. # [13:02] <annevk2> wow, Xbox Project Natal looks pretty cool
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  225. # [13:04] <Rik|work> annevk2: but pretty vaporware for the moment
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  227. # [13:13] <annevk2> yeah
  228. # [13:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: It is worth noting that many users don't change default settings even if they could improve their user experience by doing so
  229. # [13:14] <jgraham> Even expert users
  230. # [13:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: which way do the defaults on summary reading go?
  231. # [13:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think "on" but I'm not sure
  232. # [13:17] <hsivonen> it would be helpful if screen reader users and vendors (if they've done usability studies) participated in these threads
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  234. # [13:41] * maik|lunch is now known as maikmerten
  235. # [13:42] <maikmerten> hsivonen, donations should be fixed once the webpage mirrors catch up
  236. # [13:42] <maikmerten> hsivonen, thanks for the catch
  237. # [13:42] <maikmerten> (and for the donation, of course)
  238. # [13:43] <hsivonen> maikmerten: OK. thanks. I'll make another attempt later
  239. # [13:55] * jgraham wonders if he should explicitly point out that the <details> proposal has more or less no new conformance requirements relative to <details>
  240. # [13:55] <annevk2> it seems a bit complicated to me
  241. # [13:56] <jgraham> annevk2: It is the best I can manage that takes account of the positions of both "sides"
  242. # [13:57] <jgraham> But if yoou can think of something less complex...
  243. # [13:57] <annevk2> http://www.zeldman.com/2009/06/08/not-safe-for-work-tag-in-html-5/ lol
  244. # [13:58] <annevk2> it's all over twitter too
  245. # [13:58] <Dashiva> I can't wait for the "We must allow users to encode which kind of work it's not safe for" talk to start
  246. # [13:59] <jgraham> (well "just use <caption>" is less complex but doesn't account for the argument that @summary is needed because authors don't want to burden all users with information that only a small constituency require)
  247. # [14:00] <zcorpan> <details><legend>Not safe for work</legend><img src=badkitten.jpg></details>
  248. # [14:00] <Dashiva> That tiny minority that supply summary info, and that tiny minority of those who actually supply non-universal summary info, wouldn't they be competent enough to use a hidden block of text linked with ARIA?
  249. # [14:01] <jgraham> Dashiva: They're not competent enough to use @summary
  250. # [14:02] <Dashiva> Then what's the problem?
  251. # [14:02] <jgraham> I never understand Zeldman when he starts talking in the first person plural. Does he have multiple personality disorder or does he think he's the Queen?
  252. # [14:02] <Dashiva> I hear kings do it too
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  254. # [14:05] <jgraham> (also if <caption> allowed flow content children, being able to use <details> would just fall out naturally so there would be no problem except documenting the best-practice)
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  256. # [14:20] <jgraham> Things I hate about javascript number 0156: The difference between undefined meaning "no property" and undefined meaning "a property with the value undefined"
  257. # [14:22] <Dashiva> Meet the in operator
  258. # [14:23] <annevk2> I want to post a short follow-up post on the video thing
  259. # [14:23] <annevk2> Chrome can distribute FFmpeg because its patent license that it may or may not have covers the Chrome product and not the library, right?
  260. # [14:23] <jgraham> Dashiva: I know /how/ to tell. But it is still stupid and unintuitive (this is based on debugging code where someone else got this wrong)
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  276. # [14:25] <Dashiva> jgraham: Wouldn't you say that code treating the two differently is a bug, though?
  277. # [14:26] <jgraham> Dashiva: In that case the ECMAScript spec is really buggy
  278. # [14:26] <jgraham> (see e.g. Array.prototype.sort)
  279. # [14:29] <Dashiva> The part about undefined values coming before missing indexes?
  280. # [14:29] <jgraham> Yes
  281. # [14:29] <Dashiva> That's invisible to code that doesn't separate the two, though
  282. # [14:29] <jgraham> In general array methods behave rather differently with undefined and missing values
  283. # [14:30] <jgraham> (this is not the only area of the spec that is differnt of course)
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  333. # [15:22] <hsivonen> oh. the chrome/ffmpeg/lgpl thing hit slashdot yesterday
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  351. # [16:30] <hsivonen> hmm. If nearly all non-calendar tables on Philip's list are layout tables and JAWS detects them as layout tables, I could understand how users hear none of the whole pile Philip had and instead hear summaries only on .gov sites
  352. # [16:31] <hsivonen> that seems like a huge waste ratio :-/
  353. # [16:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: maybe you should put a JAWS-compatible summary suppression algorithm in the spec
  354. # [16:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: AFAIK we haven't got as far as reverse engineering how JAWS (or others) detect layout tables
  355. # [16:34] <jgraham> Nor is there any evidence that they have reached a maximum of efficiency to the point at which the algorithm should be standardised
  356. # [16:35] <jgraham> well, that didn't quite make sense but you see what I mean, maybe
  357. # [16:35] <hsivonen> ok, but today's back-and-forth may actually have teased out a reasonable explanation that reconciles the data with the claims that users aren't burdened with accessispam
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  360. # [16:36] <jgraham> That JAWS and others have layout-table-detecting algorithms that cause @summary to be supressed? I thought we already knew that
  361. # [16:37] <jgraham> We don't know what the efficiency of those algorithms is
  362. # [16:37] <hsivonen> what I didn't realize before is how predominantly the summaries are used on layout tables outside .gov
  363. # [16:38] <hsivonen> what does it say about the success of an accessibility feature that the leading screen reader has code to suppress it?
  364. # [16:39] <jgraham> (there was a machine-learning based paper that claimed something like 95% although I can't remember quite what that referred to)
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  367. # [16:40] <jgraham> (clearly it can't be "right in 95% of all cases because you cn do rather better than that just by saying all tables are layout tables)
  368. # [16:41] <jgraham> s/s/s"/
  369. # [16:41] <hsivonen> anyway, I can buy the argument that summary should be 'in', because .gov sites may manage to use it right and that abuse by others is suppressed by algorithms
  370. # [16:42] <hsivonen> but then why does the .gov guide recommend <caption>
  371. # [16:42] <hsivonen> and can we have @summary for .gov without having all these other people write summaries only to be suppressed?
  372. # [16:44] <hsivonen> I wonder what kind of effect would a validator that whined about non-empty summary on tables that JAWS would consider layout tables would have
  373. # [16:44] <hsivonen> minus one 'would'
  374. # [16:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: It is worth noting that the data was not so conclusive about .gov managing to use @summary right
  375. # [16:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: that, too
  376. # [16:47] <jgraham> I don't think we should be keeping heavily abused features just because some small subset of people might get them right sometimes and the bad effects of people getting them wrong can be mitigated by significant client side effort
  377. # [16:48] <jgraham> Not least because it makes developing clients significantly harder; to compete with JAWS you have to reverse engineer its table heuristics
  378. # [16:48] <jgraham> or build better ones
  379. # [16:48] <jgraham> or offer a worse user experience
  380. # [16:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: unless HTML5 saves prospective developers the cost by having a canned explanation of what JAWS does
  381. # [16:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: Since FS have no interest in giving that to us we would have to reverse engineer it. But that sort of thing should not be codified in the spec
  382. # [16:49] <jgraham> It would be an intersting and useful excersie though
  383. # [16:50] <jgraham> although if they have used e.g. machine learning the algorithm could be rather complex to pin down
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  385. # [16:50] <Dashiva> "Structure is nothing if it is all you got. Skeletons spook people if they try to walk around on their own. I really wonder why XML does not."
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  388. # [17:02] <webben> jgraham: "should not be codified in the spec" ... why not?
  389. # [17:02] <webben> Seems like an important area of interoperable consumption of the web corpus.
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  394. # [17:10] <jgraham> webben: Because it seems like a UI issue
  395. # [17:10] <jgraham> (sort of)
  396. # [17:13] <jgraham> and because making a dejure method of categorising tables into layout and non-layout unnecessarily freezes the state of the art
  397. # [17:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: I disagree. I think it's a semantic issue for answering "what's the summary if any of this table"
  398. # [17:15] <webben> jgraham: I don't think it's a UI issue. If one wants to allow conforming UAs to implement even better algorithms, it could always be a suggested algorithm.
  399. # [17:16] <webben> that lowers the bar to creating a UA, while still allowing evolution of better heuristics.
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  401. # [17:23] <jgraham> I am not opposed to an informative algorithm, perhaps in a seperate document. I would be very worried about defining semantic issues based on things that have a certian known failure rate and no manual override
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  415. # [18:47] <annevk42> gsnedders, "all other specs"? mwaha
  416. # [18:47] <gsnedders> :P
  417. # [18:47] <gsnedders> all the other specs, I meant
  418. # [18:47] <gsnedders> And I said that!
  419. # [18:48] <gsnedders> There is a difference between "all other" and "all the other" :P
  420. # [18:49] <annevk42> still, CORS, Selectors API, various CSS specs, ...
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  422. # [18:49] <gsnedders> the is the definite article, hence it doesn't apply to absolutely all.
  423. # [18:50] <annevk42> maybe I'm being dense, but it's not clear to me how "the" includes XMLHttpRequest, but not those
  424. # [18:50] <annevk42> but it also does not really matter and I have to go :)
  425. # [18:50] * jgraham onders what is being discussed
  426. # [18:50] <jgraham> *wonders
  427. # [18:50] <gsnedders> Nuances of English :)
  428. # [18:51] <jgraham> damn double-u
  429. # [18:51] <jgraham> if it was spelt uuonders I could get it right
  430. # [18:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: See -archive, though
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  439. # [19:32] <gsnedders> Does anyway have a test suite for XML serializers, apart from giving Philip` access to it? :P
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  457. # [20:26] <hsivonen> scary. google's page optimization docs mention netscape 4.04
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  466. # [20:44] <gsnedders> Uh, xml-names doesn't define what a valid value for an xmlns actually is, apart from saying it must be a URI reference (whatever that is) or an empty string.
  467. # [20:45] <ezyang> I'm pretty sure anything for xmlns is fair game.
  468. # [20:45] <ezyang> I've used urns for xmlns before.
  469. # [20:45] <gsnedders> Yes, but what's a URI?
  470. # [20:46] <ezyang> Uniform Resource Identifier
  471. # [20:46] <gsnedders> What RFC3986 says? What RFC 2396 says?
  472. # [20:46] <ezyang> See RFC 3986
  473. # [20:46] <ezyang> 3986 supercedes 2396
  474. # [20:47] * gsnedders finally finds a reference in the spec saying what a URI is.
  475. # [20:47] <gsnedders> (I mean what the XML namespaces spec means by "URI", I don't care about what RFC obsoletes what :P)
  476. # [20:47] <ezyang> jaja
  477. # [20:48] <gsnedders> (I mean, if I wanted to throw fatal errors on invalid namespace names, then it'd be better that it's behaviour was constant and didn't depend on what RFC I chose to implement, as there should hopefully be a static reference in the spec.)
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  479. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Oh, more fun: xml-names first ed. references RFC 2396 and second edition RFC 3986
  480. # [20:49] * gsnedders wonders which to be compatible with
  481. # [20:49] <ezyang> That makes sense
  482. # [20:49] <ezyang> 3986 is mostly a strict superset of 2396, so you should use that
  483. # [20:49] <gsnedders> The problem is it means a document using namespaces may throw parse errors if it implements the first edition.
  484. # [20:50] <ezyang> Unlikely.
  485. # [20:50] <gsnedders> But possible. Bear in mind the big issue of XML 1.0 Fifth edition.
  486. # [20:51] <gsnedders> (i.e., a document valid under that can be not even well-formed according to another XML 1.0 processor, because it implements an earlier edition)
  487. # [20:51] * gsnedders wonders how to implement URI validation
  488. # [20:51] <ezyang> I'm pretty sure they only sanity check URIs, and don't do an in-depth check.
  489. # [20:52] <gsnedders> Processors normally do not checking :)
  490. # [20:52] <gsnedders> For a serializer, it ought to be impossible to output anything that isn't conforming, though
  491. # [20:52] <ezyang> btw, you should read "D.2. Modifications"
  492. # [20:53] * gsnedders thought from memory there were actual changes
  493. # [20:55] <gsnedders> Is it true that any string that matches unreserved / reserved _and_ where any "%" are followed by 2HEXDIG will match URI-reference?
  494. # [20:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: I feel you are being over-analytic somewhere
  495. # [20:56] <gsnedders> That's untrue.
  496. # [20:56] * gsnedders wonders if he can do this without implementing a full URI parser
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  498. # [20:57] <jgraham> gsnedders: Really, worrying that a document may implement(?) an absolete RFC is over-analysing something
  499. # [20:57] <gsnedders> :P
  500. # [20:57] <gsnedders> OK, but now I've moved on from that!
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  502. # [21:02] <hsivonen> gsnedders: serializers should target 4th ed for compat
  503. # [21:02] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Indeed.
  504. # [21:02] <gsnedders> hsivonen: And what edition of xml-names?
  505. # [21:02] <gsnedders> (Or does that not matter?)
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  507. # [21:03] <hsivonen> gsnedders: 1.0
  508. # [21:03] <hsivonen> edition, dunno
  509. # [21:03] <gsnedders> hsivonen: first or second edition, though?
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  511. # [21:04] * gsnedders sighs
  512. # [21:05] <gsnedders> I'm subclassing PHP's built-in XMLWriter to fix the fact it can output non well-formed XML (this is a "bogus" bug). This is gonna be a big subclass. :(
  513. # [21:06] <ezyang> Oh, if this is PHP, HTML Purifier has RFC-compliant code for parsing URIs
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  515. # [21:06] <gsnedders> LGPL though
  516. # [21:06] <ezyang> HTML Purifier is LGPL?
  517. # [21:07] <gsnedders> Is it not?
  518. # [21:07] <ezyang> Yep, it is. What do you need to license it as?
  519. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Ideally MIT
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  521. # [21:09] <gsnedders> But it needs to at least be includable within an Apache product.
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  523. # [21:10] <gsnedders> Also: URI parsing isn't the hard part. Validation is.
  524. # [21:10] <ezyang> Sure.
  525. # [21:10] <ezyang> But I thought you just wanted to freak out when the URI wasn't compliant
  526. # [21:12] <gsnedders> Yeah.
  527. # [21:12] <gsnedders> But that means validating it :P
  528. # [21:12] <gsnedders> (Or using a needlessly complex parser)
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  530. # [21:18] * myakura is installing Safari 4
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  537. # [21:47] <jwalden> man, this chrome/ffmpeg thread is like the gift that keeps on giving
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  542. # [21:58] <jgraham> jwalden: You get odd gifts
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  544. # [22:05] <jwalden> what can I say, my needs are few :-)
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  554. # [22:30] <gsnedders> The XMLWriter extension really is useless :(
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  556. # [22:33] <sayrer> gsnedders, is that php?
  557. # [22:33] <gsnedders> sayrer: yeah
  558. # [22:34] <gsnedders> (And yes, I know PHP is all useless :D)
  559. # [22:34] <sayrer> oh, it is what it is :)
  560. # [22:34] <sayrer> gsnedders, is there a genx wrapper? that's always been pretty good
  561. # [22:34] * gsnedders wonders how much he would lose by making BetterXMLWriter not a subclass XMLWriter
  562. # [22:35] <sayrer> after all, any bozo can generate well-formed xml
  563. # [22:35] <gsnedders> I mean, I re-implement so much…
  564. # [22:35] <gsnedders> sayrer: That would have to be a non-standard extension, which makes it virtually impossible to rely upon for shippable code
  565. # [22:35] <sayrer> oh, I see. I didn't realize there were "standard extensions"
  566. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Oh, sure. More or less anything useful is in an extension. And, naturally, it can be disabled.
  567. # [22:36] <sayrer> what are you writing, btw?
  568. # [22:37] <gsnedders> A subclass of XMLWriter that can be relied upon to always output XML.
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  571. # [22:37] <sayrer> XMLForSeriousWriter?
  572. # [22:37] <gsnedders> BetterXMLWriter.
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  574. # [22:37] <sayrer> ActuallyXMLWriter?
  575. # [22:38] <sayrer> I have been using Venus for some stuff lately
  576. # [22:38] * gsnedders finds startPI actually works!
  577. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Like, actually does enough sanitization to be usable.
  578. # [22:38] <sayrer> I have to say... it's the first time I've actually derived value from an XML publishing pipeline
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  582. # [22:41] <gsnedders> Awesome. U+FFFF is allowed as an element name.
  583. # [22:41] <gsnedders> And when you use U+FFFF as a namespace URI you get &#xEF;&#xBF;&#xBF;
  584. # [22:41] <gsnedders> (EF BF BF is U+FFFF in UTF-8)
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  586. # [22:42] <sayrer> There’s just no nice way to say this: Anyone who can’t make a syndication feed that’s well-formed XML is an incompetent fool
  587. # [22:42] <sayrer> quote unquote
  588. # [22:42] <sayrer> :)
  589. # [22:42] * gsnedders gets the quote :)
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  591. # [22:43] <gsnedders> I mean, it's hardly as if WP can be made to produce a feed that isn't XML well-formed…
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  594. # [22:44] <sayrer> I that is my second favorite XML quote ever
  595. # [22:44] <gsnedders> (This is, of course, a bug that has been open for 16 months, but has existed since before it was called WP :P)
  596. # [22:44] <gsnedders> sayrer: What's your favourite?
  597. # [22:44] <jgraham> I asume we are expected to ask what your favourite XML quote is
  598. # [22:44] <jgraham> Oh gsnedders already said that
  599. # [22:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: You're slow.
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  601. # [22:45] <jgraham> Well that's no surprise to anyone
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  603. # [22:45] <sayrer> No doubt I can write a routine to parse this, but look at how deep they went to re-invent, XML itself wasn't good enough for them, for some reason (I'd love to hear the reason). Who did this travesty? Let's find a tree and string them up. Now.
  604. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Ah, Dave Winer. That makes the quote seem quite mild and calm.
  605. # [22:47] * gsnedders wonders what the hell XMLWriter is doing here
  606. # [22:47] <gsnedders> XMLWriter::writePI('a', "\xEF\xBF\xBF")
  607. # [22:47] <gsnedders> <?a Ôø\BF?>
  608. # [22:48] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de)
  609. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Ô is U+00D4 and ø is U+00F8
  610. # [22:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: You do realise that using a language without proper unicode support in 2009 is just silly, right?
  611. # [22:49] * gsnedders points to the first point of his rant on PHP's problems
  612. # [22:49] <jgraham> (or at least the ability to invent unicode support in a reasonably performant manner)
  613. # [22:50] * gsnedders watches jgraham get confused by gsnedders pointing at an unpublished draft :P
  614. # [22:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: Don't rant, boycott :)
  615. # [22:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: If you want the state of XML to get better on the web you need to get it working in PHP. Sad reality.
  616. # [22:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: I'm not that concerned with the state of XML on the web
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  619. # [22:52] * gsnedders grumbles, finding more ways to break XMLWriter
  620. # [22:52] <jgraham> It hasn't worked very well so far, it will continue to not work very well in the future
  621. # [22:52] <sayrer> it might be more effective to get genx in the php distribution
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  624. # [22:53] <gsnedders> sayrer: Should I point out WP supports versions of PHP shipped over six years ago?
  625. # [22:54] <sayrer> first you fix the ones actually hosted on wordpress.com
  626. # [22:54] <sayrer> then you get the ones that actually update for bug fixes and perf
  627. # [22:54] <sayrer> and the others die out
  628. # [22:54] <sayrer> it will take a while, I agree
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  630. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Even getting WP to use a broken XML serializer would probably help
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  635. # [23:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: Did you implement the comment-end-bang stuff in php-html5lib?
  636. # [23:07] <ezyang> I did.
  637. # [23:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: No.
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  640. # [23:09] <jgraham> ezyang: Yeh I just noticed on hg log :) So, where do the two parse errors for <!----!a--> come from?
  641. # [23:10] <ezyang> first parse error is from !, second parse error is from a
  642. # [23:10] <jgraham> It seems like the tests assume a in comment end bang state is a parse error but that's not what the spec says
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  645. # [23:10] <ezyang> Unless Hixie, like, changed it.
  646. # [23:10] <ezyang> Oh?
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  648. # [23:11] <ezyang> "Parse error. Switch to the comment end bang state."
  649. # [23:11] <jgraham> Right
  650. # [23:11] <ezyang> (the parse error results when you transition into the state, not in the actual state)
  651. # [23:11] <jgraham> then why does the a give a second parse error?
  652. # [23:12] <jgraham> s/a/"a"/
  653. # [23:12] <ezyang> oh ho, that's not right
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  655. # [23:13] <ezyang> I can fix that, or you can?
  656. # [23:13] <ezyang> (I have the html5lib-php fix, anyway)
  657. # [23:13] <jgraham> You can if you like
  658. # [23:15] <sayrer> olliej: congrats on Safari 4 (I hate the codecs, but I know you guys don't have much to do with that choice)
  659. # [23:16] <olliej> sayrer: we had those in S3.1 :D
  660. # [23:16] <annevk42> http://twitter.com/daringfireball/status/2078539734
  661. # [23:16] <sayrer> it's much nicer than the beta
  662. # [23:16] <olliej> sayrer: but omg i wih there was some sane codec solution
  663. # [23:16] <olliej> sayrer: or failing that
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  665. # [23:16] <olliej> sayrer: people would stop arguing about chrome specifics in the whatwg list
  666. # [23:16] <ezyang> Pushed.
  667. # [23:16] <sayrer> well, I think the argument is healthy
  668. # [23:16] <sayrer> easy to skip
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  670. # [23:18] <annevk42> just filter on chrome + ffmpeg if you don't care about it
  671. # [23:18] <jgraham> ezyang: Thanks
  672. # [23:19] <jgraham> olliej: We could get people to diss apple too, if you like :)
  673. # [23:20] <olliej> jgraham: they already do
  674. # [23:20] <ezyang> jgraham: I think it would be generally useful for people do adopt the SPEC convention
  675. # [23:20] <olliej> jgraham: and then they claim that chrome has actually implemented stuff
  676. # [23:20] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-202-30.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  677. # [23:21] <sayrer> olliej?
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  679. # [23:22] * jgraham wonders what a SPEC convention is
  680. # [23:22] <olliej> sayrer: oh google acting like (and convincing people that) they are responsible for significant amounts of the browser feature set
  681. # [23:22] <sayrer> oh I see
  682. # [23:22] <olliej> sayrer: which i also take to be bitching about apple :D
  683. # [23:22] <ezyang> jgraham: Oh yeah...
  684. # [23:23] <sayrer> don't you think that's how open source goes?
  685. # [23:23] <olliej> sayrer: what, bitching about apple?
  686. # [23:23] * Quits: mgrdcm (n=mgrdcm@65.111.247.194)
  687. # [23:23] <sayrer> no, claiming you have a feature
  688. # [23:23] <sayrer> since you just import an open source library
  689. # [23:23] <olliej> sayrer: ah right
  690. # [23:23] <sayrer> sort of like we claim we have ogg
  691. # [23:23] <ezyang> jgraham: It's putting a SPEC file in the root of your project directory, and setting it's contents to be 1234, where that's the last revision of HTML5 that you've checked the library against.
  692. # [23:23] <sayrer> but we didn't write the ogg libraries
  693. # [23:24] <jgraham> ezyang: Tha would be hard to do since I will often miss things that aren't covered by tests
  694. # [23:24] <olliej> sayrer: but yes, there's a difference between claiming support for ogg, and claiming to have added support for video/audio/appcache/etc when all you did was pickup existing or enabled from a standard trunk build
  695. # [23:24] <sayrer> what is the difference?
  696. # [23:25] <jgraham> Although it would be helpful to know what the last revision I looked at was
  697. # [23:25] <sayrer> like, what could they say that would be ok?
  698. # [23:25] <olliej> sayrer: eg. compare "Firefox now supports ogg" to "Flock has now added support for html5"
  699. # [23:25] <sayrer> hmm. I can understand that they want people to know <audio> will work in Chrome
  700. # [23:25] <olliej> (Flock is that geco/firefox based social browser?"
  701. # [23:25] <sayrer> how do they say that the right way?
  702. # [23:26] <jgraham> ezyang: <a a=a<> should have a parse error, right? (< in attribute value, unquoted, state)
  703. # [23:26] <olliej> sayrer: enabled would be preferable -- i would prefer "we have now updated to a new version of webkit that provides ..."
  704. # [23:26] <ezyang> jgraham: That's fine; but you really don't want to be re-scanning the spec every time something changes
  705. # [23:26] <olliej> sayrer: but anyway, this isn't relevant to the channel
  706. # [23:27] <jgraham> olliej: See /topic
  707. # [23:27] <olliej> sayrer: this started with me just wishing people would continue arguing about whether google is legally allowed to do what they're doing
  708. # [23:27] <sayrer> this channel is pretty wide open :)
  709. # [23:27] <ezyang> jgraham: Umm, that's a new test, I think it needs a parse error
  710. # [23:27] <sayrer> or so I hear
  711. # [23:27] <olliej> errr
  712. # [23:27] <olliej> s/continue/stop
  713. # [23:27] <ezyang> Whatever it says there is what I think it should be, since I wrot ethe test
  714. # [23:27] <olliej> subtle difference there :D
  715. # [23:27] <ezyang> *wrote the
  716. # [23:27] <sayrer> haha
  717. # [23:28] <olliej> sayrer: i have JSON.stringify implemented now
  718. # [23:28] <olliej> sayrer: not yet landed (Waiting for review)
  719. # [23:28] <sayrer> cool... mostly the same as mine?
  720. # [23:28] <jgraham> ezyang: I think there should be a parse error but the test disagrees
  721. # [23:28] <sayrer> I know I have a few deviations
  722. # [23:28] <sayrer> stupid spec changes every meeting
  723. # [23:28] <jgraham> I guess ECMA don't believe in testsuites?
  724. # [23:29] <sayrer> actually
  725. # [23:29] <sayrer> Microsoft donated the beginnings of one
  726. # [23:29] <sayrer> at the last meeting
  727. # [23:29] <jgraham> Awesome
  728. # [23:29] <sayrer> host on their codeplex site
  729. # [23:29] <sayrer> (like google code or sourceforge)
  730. # [23:29] <sayrer> it's dual licensed BSD / MSPL
  731. # [23:29] <jgraham> But there is no interoperable implementations requirement like with W3C?
  732. # [23:30] <sayrer> there is an agreement in the group
  733. # [23:30] <jgraham> sayrer: Do you have a pointer?
  734. # [23:30] <olliej> sayrer: mostly the spec/json2.js behaviour
  735. # [23:30] <ezyang> Ok, spec agrees with what you say. Checking code.
  736. # [23:30] <sayrer> olliej: I'm sure you'll find json2.js changes over time with no changelog
  737. # [23:30] <sayrer> I certainly have :)
  738. # [23:31] <olliej> sayrer: hehe
  739. # [23:31] <olliej> sayrer: i've tried to go for "sane"
  740. # [23:31] <Philip`> Hixie: I'm not here (and will be similarly not here for the next week, so if it can't wait then now is as good a time as any)
  741. # [23:31] <olliej> sayrer: in most cases the issues i pointed out should never matter
  742. # [23:31] <sayrer> yeah, I was pretty happy about hat
  743. # [23:31] <sayrer> that
  744. # [23:31] <sayrer> clearly edge cases
  745. # [23:31] <olliej> sayrer: yeah
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  747. # [23:31] <olliej> sayrer: i was happy with that :D
  748. # [23:32] <ezyang> I think the test is right.
  749. # [23:32] <sayrer> jgraham: I think there is a message on the es-discuss list
  750. # [23:32] <olliej> jgraham: both mozilla and webkit have fairly substantial js test suites as well
  751. # [23:32] <ezyang> Hu, no.
  752. # [23:32] <sayrer> olliej: I think we're going to try and upstream to microsoft's for es5
  753. # [23:33] <sayrer> and have hg pull it in
  754. # [23:33] <olliej> sayrer: righto
  755. # [23:33] <sayrer> I'm going to donate my JSON tests at least
  756. # [23:33] <jgraham> olliej: I am aware of the mozilla testsuite. It is nice but not always a test of the spec :)
  757. # [23:34] <olliej> sayrer: cool
  758. # [23:34] <sayrer> there are a few that test mozilla-specific extensions like scripted iterators that I will have to remove
  759. # [23:34] <ezyang> Oh hey, the test fails for my impl too
  760. # [23:34] <ezyang> Yep, that should have a parse error
  761. # [23:34] <ezyang> Wow, how'd I miss that?
  762. # [23:34] <ezyang> Can you fix that?
  763. # [23:35] <annevk42> hmm, nothing in the keynote was not predicted by daringfireball
  764. # [23:35] <annevk42> no fun
  765. # [23:35] <jgraham> ezyang: Sure
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  775. # [23:51] <Philip`> sayrer: I guess you mean genx as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Mar/0060.html ? :-)
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  778. # [23:52] <sayrer> Philip`: class
  779. # [23:52] <sayrer> who did this XML travesty? It's not even JSON!
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  783. # Session Close: Tue Jun 09 00:00:00 2009

The end :)