/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-09 / end

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  47. # [02:26] <jwalden> hm, is aside the correct element to use to mark up parentheticals, even if those parentheticals should be |display: inline|?
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  51. # [02:30] <Hixie> jwalden: no, use Unicode characters U+0028 and U+0029 to mark up parentheticals.
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  56. # [02:54] <Hixie> anyone got any opinions on bruce's e-mail regarding whether to use <figure> or <aside> for pullquotes?
  57. # [02:54] <Hixie> i guess <aside> is better
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  63. # [03:26] <jwalden> Hixie: thanks; might be worth adding an informative sentence to <aside> mentioning that anti-use case
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  65. # [03:27] <Hixie> added a comment, dunno if it'll confuse more than it helps, though
  66. # [03:29] * jwalden looks
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  159. # [08:13] * jwalden reads the parts of the ffmpeg/chrome thread he hadn't read yet, merely seen as having happened, and is bemused at how quickly things went south when some people chose not to shut up
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  161. # [08:14] <jwalden> frankly, I'm amazed it took so long to catch flame :-D
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  168. # [08:36] <hsivonen> so predictable: http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/2085821360
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  172. # [09:16] <jgraham> HTML5 fully speciying something and being silent on whether it is conforming or not seems difficult
  173. # [09:17] <jgraham> Unless HTML5 made no claims about document conformance at all, I suppose
  174. # [09:17] <jgraham> But that seems... unhelpful
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  183. # [10:10] <annevk42> "To call out just one change, note that Snow Leopard now defaults to the same display gamma as Windows — 2.2 instead of 1.8." does this mean PNG now works the same everywhere?
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  194. # [10:51] <annevk42> <di> ftw
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  196. # [10:54] * ZombieLoffe is now known as ZombieL
  197. # [10:54] <jgraham> annevk42: I don't think so
  198. # [10:54] <jgraham> (the png thing)
  199. # [10:56] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.124)
  200. # [10:56] <jgraham> (at least I think that change alone doesn't solve the problem that hsivonen always brings up which is that png colours may not match CSS colours in browsers that have support for PNG colour profiles)
  201. # [10:56] <annevk42> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/ suggests it is about gamma
  202. # [10:58] <annevk42> it seems it was not much of a problem anyway anymore
  203. # [10:59] <jgraham> annevk42: I don't understand this much but there is also the colour space issue
  204. # [10:59] <jgraham> Oh wait, I am thinking about JPEGs although the same applies to PNG afaik
  205. # [11:02] <hsivonen> when browsers do ICC stuff, you can now enjoy the old png-gamma problem with JPEGs, too!
  206. # [11:03] <hsivonen> annevk42: the main old problem was that some old browsers didn't make PNG color "management" opt-in
  207. # [11:03] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  208. # [11:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: For JPEGs it makes much more sense since fewer people are using JPEGs as part of their site design
  209. # [11:04] <hsivonen> w00t! finally gamma sanity at Apple with the 2.2 default.
  210. # [11:04] <hsivonen> time to party. at last!
  211. # [11:04] * hsivonen reads logs backwards
  212. # [11:05] <hsivonen> existing content and degrading gracefully FTW!
  213. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Mac-created content degrading gracefully on Windows, that is
  214. # [11:05] <hsivonen> and existing Windows-created content working on Mac
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  219. # [11:20] * beowulf_ is now known as beowulf
  220. # [11:24] <Lachy> hsivonen, PNG Gamma article of yours seems a little out of date. It's mentions browsers like Safari 2.0, IE5 Mac and Opera 7 as if they were still relevant
  221. # [11:24] <Lachy> if you have time one day, it would be nice if you could update it to discuss the current situation
  222. # [11:25] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah, I should probably update it to say that the article discusses a problem that has now pretty much gone away as a browser interop problem but is now relevant as a photoshop/browser problem
  223. # [11:25] * hsivonen has a lot of outstanding feedback on the article :-(
  224. # [11:26] <Lachy> yeah, I always had trouble getting photoshop to export PNGs in ways that played nicely with browsers
  225. # [11:27] <hsivonen> the great thing about OS X is that old releases fade into irrelevance much faster than old Windows releases
  226. # [11:27] <Lachy> I had much more luck with Fireworks, which somehow seems to get it right
  227. # [11:27] <hsivonen> so pre-Tiger Safari doesn't matter anymore
  228. # [11:28] <Lachy> so, is the best way to get PNGs with consistent colour to omit the colour profile information, and rely on current browsers matching the CSS colours?
  229. # [11:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah. with unlabeled color for everything, CSS, bitmaps and plug-ins match
  230. # [11:29] <Lachy> good
  231. # [11:30] <Lachy> that would have been useful to know when I was doing web development a couple of years ago.
  232. # [11:30] <hsivonen> Lachy: you should have googled for my article!
  233. # [11:31] <Lachy> I did read it a long time ago, but didn't really understand it too well
  234. # [11:31] <Lachy> I just knew if I exported PNGs with Fireworks, they were right, and if I used Photoshop, they'd be wrong in some browser/platform combinations
  235. # [11:32] <beowulf> you can use software to remove the gamma black from pngs, that's what i do anyway
  236. # [11:33] <Lachy> I still don't really understand the concept of colour profiles too well. They seem like a hack to make poor quality hardware give good colour, instead of getting hardware vendors to produce better quality colour
  237. # [11:33] <hsivonen> most of the feedback I haven't addressed yet revolves around endorsing various removal tools
  238. # [11:34] <Lachy> the pngcrush command the article mentions seems good enough
  239. # [11:34] <Lachy> although, I haven't used it
  240. # [11:34] <jgraham> Lachy: define "good colour"
  241. # [11:35] <beowulf> i use pngthing, but i can't imagine it's any better worse than something else that does the same thing, considering
  242. # [11:35] <Lachy> jgraham, good colour = colour that looks like what it's supposed to look like
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  244. # [11:37] <jgraham> Lachy: Define "what it's supposed to look like"
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  246. # [11:39] <sprasanna> im trying to use "string".is_utf8? in my code but it gives false all the time... i dunno why it happens
  247. # [11:43] <jgraham> sprasanna: You probably would need to give more context. But at a guess you want a more ruby-related channel
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  255. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: question about v.nu backend behavior: As far as I can see now, there's not currently a way to overwrite contents of the local-entities subdir with freshly downloaded copies, right?
  256. # [12:56] * Joins: cyberpea1 (n=james@fedora/cyberpear)
  257. # [12:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you mean 3rd party ones?
  258. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no, I mean for the case where the contents of the upstream resource might have changed
  259. # [12:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but resources that aren't in the whattf repo?
  260. # [12:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm also curious which upstream resources have changed
  261. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: stepping back, I'm thinking about it in the context of trying figure out the best way to handle running v.nu in "local only" .. so the upstream resources are the language-subtag-registry file, MicrosyntaxDescriptions file, Validator.nu_alt_advice file
  262. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> what I want to add is some way to have the build download copies of those and store them locally
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  264. # [13:02] <hsivonen> ah. there's no code for that download action right now, but build.py should have parameters that can take file URL once downloaded
  265. # [13:02] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  266. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so what I was thinking is, it'd be easiest to just use your existing entity-map.txt and downloadLocalEntities() mechanism
  267. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> but -
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  271. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> I would want to make it possible for a user to make changes to the remote sources of those, and then re-run v.nu and incorporate those remote changes
  272. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> but I think if I use the existing entity-map.txt and downloadLocalEntities() mechanism as-is, then I can't do that
  273. # [13:05] <hsivonen> ok. perhaps there should be a build.py action for redownloading
  274. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> OK, I can add that
  275. # [13:05] <hsivonen> since downloadLocalEntities() never redownloads unless you delete the local files
  276. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Yep. I'm just wondering if it'd be preferable to you for me to add that redownload mechanism, or just to add separate, new handling for the language-subtag-registry, MicrosyntaxDescriptions, Validator.nu_alt_advice stuff
  277. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> I mean, the upstream DTDs don't change, so I suppose it's a bit of a waste to re-download them
  278. # [13:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it might be best to commit microsyntax and alt advice into svn and handle languag tags like 3rd-party dtds
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  283. # [13:40] <jgraham> public-html totally needs the /topic from here to be appeneded to the end of every message
  284. # [13:41] <jgraham> It ould make it so much easier to follow
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  290. # [13:55] <hsivonen> I don't buy it that accessibility were a topic that weren't tractable to empirical research methods
  291. # [13:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: Shell'y argument appeared to me to be "we should keep features that ere designed for accessiblity independent of their actual usefulness because their presence makes disabled people feel better even if they provide no tangible benefit"
  292. # [13:59] <jgraham> Which seems like a pretty poor way to design a language (I would prefer to provide features that have actual benefits) not to mention rather patronising
  293. # [14:03] <Lachy> hey, in WebStorage, it says "Multiple separate objects implementing the Storage interface can all be associated with the same list of key/value pairs simultaneously" -- http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/#the-storage-interface
  294. # [14:04] <Lachy> Is the only way that can happen when there are two pages open from the same site simultaneously, either in separate tabs or frames?
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  311. # [15:38] * jgraham fails to find the microsoft ES5 testsuite
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  342. # [17:03] <zcorpan_> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6880
  343. # [17:05] * jgraham has never got accessed denied on W3C bugzilla before
  344. # [17:07] * annevk42 now wonders what that bug is about
  345. # [17:10] <zcorpan_> oh i didn't know it had limited access
  346. # [17:10] <Lachy> hmm, damn, I had no luck finding a bugmail archive that would have a copy of the report. I guess not all bugs go to a list like public-html-bugzilla
  347. # [17:11] <zcorpan_> it's an aria bug that's pending input from the html wg
  348. # [17:11] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@adsl-144-138-35.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  349. # [17:11] <zcorpan_> wonder how the html wg can provide input if html wg participants can't access the bug!
  350. # [17:11] <jgraham> Oh well good luck on getting input if no one in the WG can see the bug :)
  351. # [17:11] <jgraham> Oh you just said that :(
  352. # [17:12] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2188-ipbf6208marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  353. # [17:13] <annevk42> WAI should really fix their transparency issues :/
  354. # [17:14] <Lachy> oh, where did you find the bug mentioned?
  355. # [17:16] <jgraham> Isn't zcorpan in the wg or something?
  356. # [17:16] <zcorpan_> i'm subscribed to aria-ua-impl
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  361. # [17:22] <remysharp> Hi - I'm looking for how to markup a slider in HTML5 (type="range") - but going by the documentation, I can't see anywhere where it says to use "range" as the type: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#range-state
  362. # [17:22] <remysharp> I was just wondering if there were docs/specs I had missed and you might be able to point me in the right direction
  363. # [17:25] <annevk42> in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-input-type it defines how type attribute values map to states
  364. # [17:25] <remysharp> cheers.
  365. # [17:26] <remysharp> from a developers point of view - don't you think it might be good to have either a link to that page or a practical example implementation?
  366. # [17:26] <remysharp> I would have found that link sooner or later,
  367. # [17:26] <remysharp> but I'm thinking newbies to html.
  368. # [17:26] <annevk42> that link is present from your section
  369. # [17:26] <annevk42> type is a link
  370. # [17:26] <remysharp> ah - from the 'type'
  371. # [17:27] <annevk42> I think at some point Hixie will add more examples and fluff to make it more understandable
  372. # [17:27] <remysharp> okay, not sure that's obvious, but at least it's there -
  373. # [17:27] <remysharp> and good to hear that more examples will be added - definitely worth it for learning from.
  374. # [17:27] <remysharp> cheers.
  375. # [17:28] <annevk42> you can play with range in Opera/Safari fwiw
  376. # [17:28] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  377. # [17:28] <remysharp> I know ;-)
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  380. # [17:44] <a-ja> anyone else noticing changes in <br /> in Opera 10 beta ?
  381. # [17:46] <a-ja> as in not starting a new line
  382. # [17:47] <jgraham> a-ja: Testcase?
  383. # [17:47] <a-ja> checking....think it's within an inline-block
  384. # [17:48] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  385. # [17:49] <a-ja> NSFW: http://stlrope.info/grue2/
  386. # [17:52] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  387. # [17:52] <jgraham> a-ja: Is that a testcase?
  388. # [17:53] <a-ja> not a reduced one....it's an example
  389. # [17:53] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-0c3638dfa483a050)
  390. # [17:54] <jgraham> OK
  391. # [17:54] * annevk42 finds http://www.openscreenproject.org/
  392. # [17:54] <a-ja> jgraham: witihin the vevent div's
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  398. # [18:15] * gsnedders needs to get an SSD for /… IO slows me down way too much.
  399. # [18:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: More than IRC?
  400. # [18:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yes, I run more than just IRC :P
  401. # [18:18] <gsnedders> (This is when starting everything up after booting up, which is a side-effect of having so much open)
  402. # [18:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: That's not what I meant :p
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  404. # [18:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hey, I don't look at the sort of websites zcorpan does at work!
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  407. # [18:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why care about disk IO when you can just get lots of RAM and everything should be magically cached?
  408. # [18:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: It still has to get from IO to RAM in the first place, and that is my problem :P
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  410. # [18:26] <Philip`> gsnedders: That should happen about twice a year when you reboot your machine
  411. # [18:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: The problem is I do it closer to 52 times a year.
  412. # [18:26] <Philip`> gsnedders: Then stop doing that :-p
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  416. # [18:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Or stop worring about optimizing something that ony happens once a week
  417. # [18:37] <jgraham> *worrying
  418. # [18:48] * Joins: danbri_ (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  419. # [18:48] * gsnedders doesn't think Opera is meant to do that (i.e., crash)
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  424. # [18:55] <jgraham> http://abcdefu.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/introducing-yip-an-unified-notification-system-for-the-web/
  425. # [18:55] <jgraham> Seems prople want a standardised notification API
  426. # [18:55] <shelleyp> jgraham, it would be helpful that if you have a comment about something I write at the HTML WG mailing list, you respond to it there, instead of here
  427. # [18:55] <shelleyp> That way we have a discussion, rather than asides that pass each other in the internet night
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  429. # [18:57] <jgraham> shelleyp: Sure I was planning to, but not till this evening
  430. # [18:57] <shelleyp> jgraham: cool, thanks
  431. # [18:57] <jgraham> I have other things to do fortunately / sadly (delete as required)
  432. # [18:57] <jgraham> :)
  433. # [18:58] <shelleyp> I understand, we're all overbooked
  434. # [18:59] <jgraham> shelleyp: FWIW the comment I was planning on making is basically "I don't think that solutions that make people feel good but don't actually work should be an acceptable design goal"
  435. # [18:59] <jgraham> (irrespective of whether @summary actually works)
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  437. # [18:59] <shelleyp> jgraham: I don't want to get too far into here, I think the discussion should happen in the mailing list but...
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  439. # [19:00] <shelleyp> My point was that measurements of success aren't always based on empirical observations
  440. # [19:00] * jgraham doesn't really understand how you can have a non-empirical measurement
  441. # [19:01] <jgraham> Purely on semantic grounds
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  445. # [19:02] <annevk2> that YIP is basically what showNotification() in HTML5 was
  446. # [19:02] <jgraham> (I can see logically ho you could say something like "success shouldn't be defined on empirical grounds" meaning "we won't measure anything before declaring a success or not")
  447. # [19:03] * gsnedders grumbles about Adobe's ordering. They're saying they will cancel the order if they don't receive proof of academic identification tonight. It's was submitted over a week ago.
  448. # [19:03] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123)
  449. # [19:03] <jgraham> annevk2: Whatever happened to showNotification?
  450. # [19:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: Didn't you just email / web form it?
  451. # [19:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: I did.
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  453. # [19:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: They claim to have not got it!
  454. # [19:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh. WFM
  455. # [19:04] <gsnedders> WFM in the past too.
  456. # [19:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: Resubmit it?
  457. # [19:04] <gsnedders> I am. Oh well. They get two open cases for the same order. Their problem.
  458. # [19:05] <shelleyp> jgraham: Interesting viewpoint, looking forward to reading more in your email response later tonight
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  460. # [19:05] <annevk2> jgraham, only Google was interested and wanted full HTML support
  461. # [19:05] <jgraham> Oh
  462. # [19:05] <jgraham> Well obviously that's not quite true
  463. # [19:06] <a-ja> jgraham: opera 10 beta doesn't seem to be handling br:before{content:"\A";}
  464. # [19:07] <gsnedders> "You can expect a response within 1 business day." — bullshit. :\
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  467. # [19:08] <jgraham> a-ja: Oh interesting. I will check if there is a bug already reported (but not right now because I'm going home, so if someone else wants to do it, feel free :) )
  468. # [19:09] <a-ja> pretty sure it worked in prior weekly.....wil back out to that and verify, in a bit
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  470. # [19:15] <annevk2> a-ja, maybe we finally fixed the bug that requires you to add white-space:pre-line for that to work?
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  476. # [19:19] <a-ja> annevk2: will give that a try......wasn't aware that pre-line 's required
  477. # [19:20] <annevk2> or pre
  478. # [19:20] <annevk2> \A is just a newline character
  479. # [19:23] <a-ja> there's some white-space:nowrap stuff in same <p>. will mess with that a bit and see what happens
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  483. # [19:42] * gsnedders grumbles at PHP some more
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  510. # [21:09] <takkaria> gsnedders: are you at Opera too this summer?
  511. # [21:11] <jgraham> takkaria: Yeah you are both interning :)
  512. # [21:11] <jgraham> takkaria: When do you start?
  513. # [21:12] <takkaria> I'm there on the 22nd
  514. # [21:12] <takkaria> until the 18th September
  515. # [21:12] <jgraham> OK, nice
  516. # [21:12] <jgraham> gsnedders starts the week after iirc
  517. # [21:13] <takkaria> do you know if there are any plans on what we'll be working on?
  518. # [21:13] <jgraham> takkaria: Nothing specific. You are QAing, right?
  519. # [21:14] <takkaria> I'm not sure, I specified that I'd be happy to code or QA
  520. # [21:14] <jgraham> (I mean I don't know anything speific, not that you won't be woking on anything specific)
  521. # [21:14] <takkaria> yeah, not working on anything specific seems like a pretty easy job :)
  522. # [21:15] <jgraham> OK. Well if you are QAing I can think of at least three or four things that you could work on and that's just things that I happen to be interested in :)
  523. # [21:15] <takkaria> fair enough
  524. # [21:15] <takkaria> what do you do, out of interest?
  525. # [21:17] <jgraham> QA. I've been working with the JS engine a bit and on general document-related bugs (as opposed to layout-related bugs)
  526. # [21:18] <takkaria> ah, cool
  527. # [21:20] <gsnedders> takkaria: 28th
  528. # [21:20] <gsnedders> takkaria: I'm doing QA
  529. # [21:20] <gsnedders> takkaria: What office you at?
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  531. # [21:23] <Hixie> i am SO glad i gave xhr to anne :-)
  532. # [21:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: I am pretty sure he is in Linkoping
  533. # [21:26] <annevk42> Hixie, I recall I just took it; I'm also not glad with it :p
  534. # [21:26] <annevk42> sync/async is a bitch to define properly
  535. # [21:27] <annevk42> and now I'm looking at XHR2 it gets even worse because then it's sync same-origin/sync cross-origin/...
  536. # [21:28] <jgraham> annevk2: Just define that sync cross-origin requests always fail :)
  537. # [21:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm pretty sure he is too
  538. # [21:28] <gsnedders> takkaria: So I arrive after you and leave before you :P
  539. # [21:28] <annevk42> jgraham, compelling, but it's "needed" for Workers
  540. # [21:29] <jgraham> annevk42: Oh.
  541. # [21:29] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  542. # [21:31] <annevk42> seamless sandboxed iframes are neat
  543. # [21:31] <annevk42> especially the origin feature
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  555. # [21:54] <slightlyoff> hey Hixie
  556. # [21:54] <slightlyoff> is there an SVN repo w/ acid3 in it somewheres?
  557. # [21:57] <slightlyoff> n/m, dug it out of webkit sources...
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  564. # [22:03] <annevk42> Hixie, are we getting <iframe document> at some point before LC?
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  569. # [22:06] <rubys> hsivonen: ping?
  570. # [22:07] <rubys> java.lang.ClassCastException: org.xml.sax.InputSource cannot be cast to nu.validator.xml.TypedInputSource
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  574. # [22:13] <Hixie> annevk42: depends on implementors. I don't want to add it until we have experience with sandbox.
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  597. # [23:44] <jgraham> Hmm I thought people had grasped the difference between UA requiements and author requirements, but I guess not
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  600. # [23:44] <sayrer> jgraham: I think people grasp them
  601. # [23:45] <sayrer> they just don't think the concept is useful
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  603. # [23:46] <sayrer> it all depends on how effective you think prescriptive author requirements will be
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  605. # [23:47] <sayrer> if there were any advantage to complying with that sort of thing, websites would do it
  606. # [23:47] <jgraham> sayrer: I think you may be projecting your view onto other people :)
  607. # [23:48] <sayrer> well maybe, but I also want to know why they are useful
  608. # [23:48] <sayrer> smart people seem to think they are
  609. # [23:48] <sayrer> so I am willing to entertain the notion that I am wrong
  610. # [23:49] <jgraham> sayrer: Generally they are useful as QA tools. If you stay within conformance you generally won't hit sharp edges that are likely to get you burnt
  611. # [23:49] <sayrer> there is a lint aspect to them
  612. # [23:49] <sayrer> I see that
  613. # [23:49] <sayrer> but that is different than a conformance requirement
  614. # [23:49] <jgraham> There is also the question of simplifying the language
  615. # [23:49] <sayrer> hmm?
  616. # [23:50] <sayrer> <font> is much simpler than css
  617. # [23:50] <sayrer> for authors
  618. # [23:50] <jgraham> By restricting the set of all working ways of achieving an effect we can focus resources on those that have the best properties for the whole ecosystem
  619. # [23:50] <sayrer> ah, but we can't
  620. # [23:51] <sayrer> since the spec gives quite precise requirements for everything, whether they are conformant for authors or not
  621. # [23:51] <sayrer> that is something I fully support
  622. # [23:52] <jgraham> sayrer: <font> doesn't scale well as a skill and tends to lead to pages that are hard to repurpose beyond the original author's intentions (e.g. to a user using a different type of UA or a screen scraper or...)
  623. # [23:52] <sayrer> I'm not sure that's true
  624. # [23:52] <sayrer> given the example at hand
  625. # [23:52] <sayrer> <font color="blue">
  626. # [23:53] <jgraham> sayrer: There is far from enough context in that example o deduce anything
  627. # [23:53] <sayrer> well, I agree that it's possible you could do something more reusable in some situations
  628. # [23:53] <jgraham> If you could show me that on real pages people only use <font> when they "should" have used <span>+CSS I would be more convinced
  629. # [23:54] <jgraham> and very surprised, frankly
  630. # [23:54] <sayrer> but a class name + a css file might also buy you an extra file and CSS
  631. # [23:54] <sayrer> when all the author wants is a blue word
  632. # [23:55] <sayrer> jgraham: anything syndicated generally goes for font
  633. # [23:55] <gsnedders> Oh man. That did not just happen. In a race on GTA 4, my car broke down while in the lead coming out of the final corner.
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  636. # [23:56] <jgraham> sayrer: I guess the times that "all the auhor wants is a blue word" with no context for the blueness are rather few
  637. # [23:56] <jgraham> Compared to the cases where <font> is used
  638. # [23:57] <sayrer> that seems quite difficult to quantify
  639. # [23:57] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  640. # [23:57] <jgraham> sayrer: Sadly lots of useful things are hard to quantify in practice
  641. # [23:58] <sayrer> sure, we don't go making MUST requirements about them :)
  642. # [23:58] <jgraham> It is at least clear that "leading" web designers voluntarily forgo the use of <font>, suggesting that the advntages to not using it are non-theoretical
  643. # [23:59] <jgraham> (and, I should add, they can back up their decision with cognent reasoning about mantainability and so on)
  644. # Session Close: Wed Jun 10 00:00:00 2009

The end :)