/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-11 / end

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  26. # [01:43] <Hixie> location.reload() always does a GET?
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  82. # [04:50] <bosky101> please leave in your comments for http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=652202 - a library launched by my startup today
  83. # [04:50] <bosky101> and would anyone knwo the channel for talk on the semantic web
  84. # [04:50] <jcranmer> don't we hate that here?
  85. # [04:51] <bosky101> in anycase i'm not sure in which cateogry start.hover.in lies in ...its basically about links using the URI to render behaviour within a webpage
  86. # [04:52] <bosky101> <a href="http://onhover.hover.in/hoverlet/hover.in/relatedyoutube/election"> election videos</a> will therefore render youtube videos when you hover over the link
  87. # [04:52] <bosky101> available events are onhover and onclick
  88. # [04:53] <bosky101> and there are around 20 kinds of return types available now, looking to build a community of it
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  200. # [12:01] <RdeWilde> Q: Anyone can tell me where's the right place to ask this question, or has an answer to it? I'd like to know if this header: http://pastebin.ca/1456435 is somehow legal http 1.1 (as in specs). Tried to figure out, but not sure yet..
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  205. # [12:24] <archtech> which part of a tag is considered the "tag body" actually: <foo>bar</baz>
  206. # [12:24] <archtech> it is <foo> or bar
  207. # [12:24] <jgraham> archtech: WWhat are you quoting?
  208. # [12:24] <jgraham> I don't recall hearing the term "tag body"
  209. # [12:28] * Quits: cyberpear (n=james@fedora/cyberpear) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  210. # [12:29] <archtech> jgraham, kinda myself. I was trying to cauge if the term is intuitive
  211. # [12:29] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Remote closed the connection)
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  213. # [12:29] <archtech> jgraham, it's confusing to talk about "content type of the content, and content type of the attributes"
  214. # [12:29] <archtech> content type of the body and the attributes, now that is kinda more natural
  215. # [12:32] * Quits: cyberpea1 (n=james@fedora/cyberpear) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  216. # [12:33] <archtech> gauge I mean
  217. # [12:33] * Joins: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
  218. # [12:34] * jgraham has never found himself talking about the "content type" of the content or attributes
  219. # [12:34] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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  221. # [12:36] <archtech> jgraham, well, you know, inline, block, literal...
  222. # [12:36] <archtech> say <script> is a literal
  223. # [12:36] <archtech> an implicit CDATA if you will
  224. # [12:44] <jgraham> Oh content model.
  225. # [12:44] * jgraham should have inferred that
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  232. # [13:21] * annevk2 reads backlog; spelling, startups, and a question about HTTP...
  233. # [13:24] <jgraham> annevk2: See /topic
  234. # [13:25] <annevk2> I lost that long ago
  235. # [13:25] <annevk2> In other news, http://norman.walsh.name/2009/06/10/ajax is interesting considering the Oracle proposals in WebApps
  236. # [13:28] * Quits: remysharp (n=remyshar@remysharp.plus.com) ("Gotta shoot - "peeyaow"")
  237. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> annevk2: yeah
  238. # [13:35] * jgraham wonders what the Oracle proposals are
  239. # [13:36] <gsnedders> Yay. Adobe have now cancelled my order for not providing proof of eligibility, despite it waiting around on their website the entire time.
  240. # [13:36] <gsnedders> grumblegrumblegrumble…
  241. # [13:43] <annevk2> hmm, I now get Swedish spam
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  249. # [14:20] * gsnedders would expect them to only cancel an order after the time limit if it wasn't waiting for _them_ to respond
  250. # [14:24] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-118337cafb520c75)
  251. # [14:29] * gsnedders is meant to provide non-sensitive photo ID
  252. # [14:29] <gsnedders> The only photo ID I have is a passport which is sesitive…
  253. # [14:29] * gsnedders grumbles…
  254. # [14:30] * beowulf wonders what a non-sensitive photo id would be?
  255. # [14:31] <Lachy> gsnedders, how do you define what is and isn't a sensitive photo ID?
  256. # [14:31] <gsnedders> Lachy: http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/407/kb407013.html
  257. # [14:31] <beowulf> maybe it's a photo he's not sensitive about? you know, nice haircut, cheeky grin
  258. # [14:34] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  259. # [14:35] * gsnedders considers taking the fuck-it option and submitting a copy of passport…
  260. # [14:36] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  261. # [14:37] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yay for trying to be a paying customer
  262. # [14:37] <gsnedders> hsivonen: And then I'll end up pirating because they refuse to take my order!
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  273. # [16:24] * hsivonen wonders what kind of UI OOo will have for the ODF 1.2 fork of RDFa
  274. # [16:24] <annevk42> office formats are such a mess
  275. # [16:25] <annevk42> people say HTML is bad, but seriously
  276. # [16:26] * jgraham bets on a UI that eposes a feature set that could easilly be replicated by a much simpler underlying technology
  277. # [16:26] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-24-25.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  278. # [16:27] <hsivonen> Word has a very CSS-like layout model, but the UI for tweaking the properties is horribly badly exposing the underlying model
  279. # [16:28] <annevk42> From CSS WG meetings I get the impression MS Office uses the same layout engine as MSIE
  280. # [16:28] <Rik|work> I'd like a word processor that would help to do structure first then style, like what good web devs do
  281. # [16:29] <annevk42> You can do that with MS Office
  282. # [16:29] <jgraham> Right but almost no-one actually does
  283. # [16:29] <annevk42> Just takes a bit of learning. Personally I write my documents in plain text or HTML :)
  284. # [16:30] <Rik|work> annevk2: you can, but the UI doesn't encourage you to do so
  285. # [16:30] <Lachy> jgraham, I do
  286. # [16:30] <Lachy> that is, when I use Word, which I don't do so frequently anymore
  287. # [16:32] <Lachy> the problem with Word is, from what I've seen of Word 2007, is that they took a backwards step with regards to encouraging structure-based editing instead of presentational editing
  288. # [16:32] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  289. # [16:35] <jgraham> Lachy: You don't really count as the inverse of "almost no-one"
  290. # [16:36] <jgraham> Plus, even hen people do use it, the temptation to use the bold and italics buttons is still rather strong e.g. the ES5 fraft has a bunch of things that could usefully be some sort of inline style but afaict aren't
  291. # [16:36] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti0151a340-0332.bb.online.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  292. # [16:36] <jgraham> (it's quite hard to tell becase the document is read-only and I don't know how to change that)
  293. # [16:37] <jgraham> (and it would be useful if they were some sort of inline class and if that got preserved in the HTML export because then it would be easier to hypertextulise the document in a post-hoc fashion)
  294. # [16:38] <Lachy> I never had any temptation to use them for normal editing. I only used them when customising the style of the available structures
  295. # [16:41] * jgraham realises that the file system permissions on the document were set to read only
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  298. # [16:45] <Lachy> It's interesting that these two articles about the same scientific calculations chose to focus on two different aspects. 1) Mars being ejected from the solar system and 2) Mars colliding with Earth. - and both articles mention the other issue as a minor note.
  299. # [16:45] <Lachy> http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/06/kicking-a-planet-out-of-the-solar-system-physically.ars
  300. # [16:45] <Lachy> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8093005.stm
  301. # [16:46] <Lachy> what's even more interesting is that both conclusions being so radically different from each other indicate that the scientists really have no clue what's going to happen.
  302. # [16:47] <hsivonen> whee! Windows CE C++ compiler claims "UNICODE" to itself as a reserved word
  303. # [16:47] <hsivonen> or built-in constant
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  306. # [16:48] <annevk42> Lachy, they are about the same article and seem to report different aspects of it
  307. # [16:49] <Lachy> annevk42, yeah, that's basically what I said
  308. # [16:49] <annevk42> Lachy, the BBC focuses on the anomaly and Ars on what is more likely to happen
  309. # [16:49] <annevk42> Lachy, no, you said it indicates scientists have no clue what is going to happen which seems like the wrong conclusion
  310. # [16:49] <Lachy> no, read the first sentence of what I wrote
  311. # [16:52] <jgraham> Actually the "no clue" thing is probably more accurate. But not in a negative way
  312. # [16:53] <jgraham> You can run these models and get an answer but they are obviously rather densitive to the initial conditions which you can't know precisely, and the exact dynamics, which you can't know precisely
  313. # [16:53] <jgraham> So the best that you can do is get a grasp on some of the possibilities
  314. # [16:54] <hsivonen> If I want to get proper hosting for a hg repo, what do I need to know about Google Code and BitBucket?
  315. # [16:54] <jgraham> and understand that things are far from being as simple as "all the planets go around in nice perfer ellipses from now until the end of time"
  316. # [16:54] <hsivonen> should I consider something else, too?
  317. # [16:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: AFAIK html5lib has not had any serious problems using Google code. Although the issue with the @ sign in email addresses is annoying.
  318. # [16:56] <jgraham> You get 1GB of space by default (I think)
  319. # [16:56] <jgraham> The main restriction is that you have to choose one of their approved licenses
  320. # [16:56] <hsivonen> oh, right. that
  321. # [16:56] <hsivonen> V.nu is a bit of a mix of licenses
  322. # [16:57] <annevk42> put it in the public domain!
  323. # [16:57] <Lachy> what's the issue with the @ sign in email addresses?
  324. # [16:57] <hsivonen> annevk42: It's not because of me that it is a mix of licenses
  325. # [16:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: the supposedly copy-pasteable snippet is bogus and you need to double-escape @ in your hgrc
  326. # [16:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: bitbucket is 150Mb free and you have to pay for more. Although there might be some open source plans if you contact them
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  329. # [16:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: have you used bitbucket?
  330. # [16:59] <hsivonen> does the Google Code license policy extend to dependency jars?
  331. # [16:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: No. I was thinking of moving html5lib just as google announced hg support
  332. # [17:00] <hsivonen> are other projects violating or following rules by checking in differently-licensed 3rd party jars?
  333. # [17:01] * jgraham is tempted to clone the html5lib repository on bitbucket anyway
  334. # [17:03] <ezyang> hsivonen: You could cheese it and have your build script download the jars
  335. # [17:03] * Quits: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  336. # [17:04] * Joins: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  337. # [17:04] <hsivonen> ezyang: I still want to check in MIT and BSD code to one repo
  338. # [17:04] <ezyang> Oh, ok, so it's not just JAR problems
  339. # [17:04] <hsivonen> ezyang: also, the C++ translator uses the Mozilla Tri-license
  340. # [17:05] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  341. # [17:05] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  342. # [17:05] <annevk42> the ToS doesn't say much about having to adhere to license policies
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  346. # [17:08] * gsnedders needs to get email working on VPS
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  348. # [17:19] <hsivonen> is HTML+TIME used on public sites at all?
  349. # [17:19] <hsivonen> is it used on intranets?
  350. # [17:21] <Lachy> is it supported by any browser?
  351. # [17:22] <Lachy> or at least a plugin?
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  360. # [17:36] <annevk42> Lachy, IE
  361. # [17:38] * gsnedders laughs at Hixie's reply to him last night :)
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  375. # [18:38] <hober> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Web_development_timeline.png
  376. # [18:40] <gsnedders> That says quite a bit about how client side open web stagnated
  377. # [18:41] <hober> It's weird that the XHTML2 WG is on there, but not the HTML WG (nor WHATWG). Then again, it's odd the XHTML2 WG is on there at all.
  378. # [18:42] <gsnedders> Where's XHTML2 on that?
  379. # [18:42] <gsnedders> Oh, there, at the top
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  403. # [20:07] <annevk42> weird that Opera is placed so late
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  422. # [20:54] * gsnedders ponders whether to get open or closed headphones
  423. # [20:55] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  424. # [20:55] * gsnedders isn't sure whether he really wants the bulk of closed ones, but could probably do with no sound leakage
  425. # [20:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: For what purpose
  426. # [20:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: For listening to music when I can't practically carry speakers around with me :P
  427. # [20:57] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  428. # [20:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: Right. But are you going for "I have to work in an office and I want to cut out background noise" headphones or "I'm a wanker^H audiophile headphones and I want the best possible sound quality"
  429. # [20:58] <jgraham> ?
  430. # [20:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: the latter.
  431. # [20:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: But the former is useful too :P
  432. # [20:58] <jgraham> Oh well I can't help you then.
  433. # [20:58] <gsnedders> Hence my issue.
  434. # [20:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: Are you allowed headphones there?
  435. # [20:58] <jgraham> Yes
  436. # [20:59] <gsnedders> Then I guess I probably should get closed ones :P
  437. # [20:59] <gsnedders> (More for the sound leakage POV than incoming sound)
  438. # [21:02] <jacobolus> gsnedders: get open headphones
  439. # [21:02] <jacobolus> gsnedders: in fact, just go pick out the set of grados that are in your budget :)
  440. # [21:02] <gsnedders> jacobolus: :)
  441. # [21:02] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  442. # [21:02] <jacobolus> gsnedders: these are great, I think http://www.gradolabs.com/product_pages/sr60.htm
  443. # [21:03] <jacobolus> definitely for the price
  444. # [21:06] <gsnedders> jacobolus: I had been looking at the Sennheiser HD 595 or 555
  445. # [21:07] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@static-72-28-92-61.gtcust.grouptelecom.net)
  446. # [21:08] <archtech> Can someone comment on what is going on with XHTML2?
  447. # [21:08] <annevk42> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/statuses/2120530436 -- isn't this exactly what we're doing?
  448. # [21:09] <annevk42> archtech, this is not the right place for that question, we're not working on it
  449. # [21:09] <archtech> annevk2, all right. I was just wondering if it was abandoned completely in favor of HTML5..
  450. # [21:10] <Hixie> archtech: no, there is still a working group working on xhtml2
  451. # [21:10] <Hixie> archtech: i believe they are even planning on releasing an updated draft soon
  452. # [21:10] * Quits: philipj (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  453. # [21:11] <archtech> Hixie, I see.
  454. # [21:11] * gsnedders thought they were planning on releasing an updated draft before TPAC last year
  455. # [21:11] <archtech> Is HTML5 intending to move towards paragraphs not just for inline content?
  456. # [21:12] <archtech> Like XHTML2 is, apparently. I can't understand that concept.
  457. # [21:12] <Hixie> archtech: you mean like <p> containing <ol>?
  458. # [21:13] <archtech> Hixie, yes, that is one of the examples in the XHTML2 draft it seems
  459. # [21:13] <archtech> However I have yet to see a documentation system that has this kind of concept.
  460. # [21:13] <Hixie> archtech: we actually tried that a few years ago, but we couldn't get it to work in a way compatible with browsers today
  461. # [21:14] <archtech> Hixie, if compatibility wasn't a problem, I wonder if it would work conceptually?
  462. # [21:14] <Hixie> archtech: yeah, seems like a pretty reasonable idea (though it makes WYSIWYG editing much harder to do)
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  465. # [21:17] <archtech> Does LaTeX define something like that?
  466. # [21:17] <Hixie> no idea
  467. # [21:17] <archtech> Thanks.
  468. # [21:17] <gsnedders> jacobolus: Peh. Looking at a Grado compared with the Sennheiser, the Senheiser does better at the bass end, but then the Grado has too much treble and the Sennheiser too little :(
  469. # [21:18] <gsnedders> archtech: LaTeX has no concept of a list being part of a paragraph, from memory.
  470. # [21:18] <jacobolus> gsnedders: what do comparison reviews say?
  471. # [21:19] <gsnedders> jacobolus: That there's little to choose between them :P
  472. # [21:19] <gsnedders> (in terms of quality)
  473. # [21:19] * gsnedders is tempted by the Sennheiser mainly because it is more comfy
  474. # [21:19] <jacobolus> gsnedders: if you want good bass, you should go for the SR80s, and buy an amp to plug in between your laptop/ipod/whatever and your headphones
  475. # [21:20] <gsnedders> jacobolus: The Sennheiser HD 595 seems to do better with bass with/without amp
  476. # [21:20] <gsnedders> jacobolus: But I don't care that much about bass alone
  477. # [21:22] <gsnedders> Generally I'm still tempted by the Sennheiser
  478. # [21:22] <jacobolus> go for it!'
  479. # [21:22] <jacobolus> I'm sure you'd be plenty happy with them
  480. # [21:23] <jacobolus> those are pretty pricey, no?
  481. # [21:23] <gsnedders> No
  482. # [21:23] <archtech> gsnedders, it seems yes, LaTeX defines lists as their own block elements.
  483. # [21:23] <archtech> I don't know.
  484. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, from having been looking at both the HD 595 and HD 555 I've got mixed up between the two :P
  485. # [21:23] <archtech> Maybe it's a better model to keep it as is, anyway.
  486. # [21:24] <jacobolus> (well, by my super-cheap standards; amazon has $260 marked down to 178)
  487. # [21:24] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-118337cafb520c75)
  488. # [21:24] <gsnedders> archtech: LaTeX is really aimed to get the semantics needed to print correctly, it isn't concerned with actual document semantics, so it makes no sense for LaTeX to support both.
  489. # [21:24] <jacobolus> archtech: LaTeX doesn't care about semantic purity
  490. # [21:24] <archtech> It doesn't, but semantics bear some overlap with presentation.
  491. # [21:25] <archtech> I can't conceptually wrap my mind around a list in a paragraph.
  492. # [21:25] <jacobolus> but inline lists don't need special structure in latex
  493. # [21:25] <archtech> At least the way literary paragraphs are defined.
  494. # [21:25] <gsnedders> The HD 555 I can get quickly (which is good seeming I leave soon).
  495. # [21:25] <gsnedders> And there isn't overly much difference between them and the HD 595 (which cost almost twice as much)
  496. # [21:25] <gsnedders> (£68.41 v. £112.95, which is a lot less than twice)
  497. # [21:26] * gsnedders was rounding both numbers down in his head to nearest multiple of ten :P
  498. # [21:29] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti0151a340-0332.bb.online.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  499. # [21:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: There again, I guess people at work would prefer people to have closed headphones :P
  500. # [21:36] * Joins: shelleyp (n=shelleyp@ppp-70-243-140-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
  501. # [21:37] <shelleyp> I've posted an email about the WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 to the HTML WG email list. Hopefully we can pull together the threads from both IRC and twitter into one place
  502. # [21:38] * Parts: shelleyp (n=shelleyp@ppp-70-243-140-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
  503. # [21:40] <archtech> Is HTML5 going to tweak the definition of inline/block or leave it as is?
  504. # [21:40] <archtech> I see some voices that say this should be purely a styling concept.
  505. # [21:40] <archtech> And not an element concept.
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  508. # [21:42] <rubys> hsivonen: ping?
  509. # [21:46] <annevk42> archtech, HTML5 does not mention inline/block-level
  510. # [21:46] <archtech> annevk2, as in? It doesn't define them or it does away with them?
  511. # [21:46] * Joins: arun_ (n=arun@guest-224.mv.mozilla.com)
  512. # [21:47] <annevk42> archtech, it groups elements using different terms
  513. # [21:47] <annevk42> archtech, so yeah, it does away with them, effectively
  514. # [21:47] <archtech> annevk2, which section should I check for more info on this?
  515. # [21:47] <annevk42> seems section 3.4 is about this
  516. # [21:48] <archtech> Thanks :)
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  523. # [21:57] <beowulf> so, nice weather out...
  524. # [21:58] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Client Quit)
  525. # [21:58] <beowulf> the heat generated from accessibility discussions makes me try very hard to not use the img element
  526. # [21:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: Given where you are likely to be sitting I can sey with some certianty that there will be a non zero number of people who will not want to hear your music
  527. # [22:00] <jgraham> Especially if you start listening to christian rock
  528. # [22:00] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.4)
  529. # [22:00] * gsnedders was expecting that :P
  530. # [22:01] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  531. # [22:02] <archtech> annevk2, I can't find how is the <br> tag classified in this section?
  532. # [22:02] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE014d.bae.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  533. # [22:02] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't see how we get to tell people waht is intuitive
  534. # [22:03] <jgraham> We have to guess what is intuitive to make the most usable language possible
  535. # [22:03] <Hixie> language design is all about making choices based on what we think is more intuitive
  536. # [22:03] <Hixie> it's like UI design
  537. # [22:03] <jgraham> Sure. That's not the same as telling people what is intuitive
  538. # [22:03] <annevk42> archtech, br is both flow and phrasing
  539. # [22:03] <Hixie> to some level you can test it, but at the end of the day it's a judgement call, even if you base it on some level of testing
  540. # [22:03] <Hixie> how is it not?
  541. # [22:03] <annevk42> archtech, the element definition lists the categories it is in
  542. # [22:04] <annevk42> archtech, the other way around might be added at some point, but that is currently not in the draft
  543. # [22:04] <archtech> isn't it confusing to have each element in multiple categories though?
  544. # [22:04] <jgraham> Hixie: Because "telling people" implies some level of control over the definition of "intuitive". We have no control, we can only infer what is intuitive (e.g. by studying behaviour) and specify from that
  545. # [22:04] <annevk42> HTML4 had a similar concept, called flow
  546. # [22:05] <archtech> I mean, it's useful for classification in a manual, but seems to not be best suited for implementing HTML5 parsers.
  547. # [22:05] <archtech> annevk2, sure, but it was simpler
  548. # [22:05] <jgraham> (the flow of information is in the opposite direction)
  549. # [22:05] <annevk42> seems natural for things to fit in multiple categories
  550. # [22:05] <annevk42> you don't implement HTML5 parsers based on content models :)
  551. # [22:06] <annevk42> you use the section that specifies parser requirements for that
  552. # [22:06] <annevk42> 9.2 iirc
  553. # [22:06] <Hixie> jgraham: my interpretation was that the guy meant that we don't get to decide on what we think is intuitive
  554. # [22:07] <jgraham> Hixie: That wasn't really my interpretation. At least I think your reply is more confusing than helpful
  555. # [22:07] <Hixie> jgraham: ah well.
  556. # [22:07] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  557. # [22:07] <Hixie> jgraham: what did you think he was saying then?
  558. # [22:08] <jgraham> Hixie: I thought he was trying to say "as language designers you can't mandate that something ought to be intuitive even if user behavior shows otherwise"
  559. # [22:09] <Hixie> yay, shelley spilt the beans on where the html4all cabal moved to
  560. # [22:09] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-194-245.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  561. # [22:09] <Hixie> jgraham: that seems like a truism, how can anyone mandate what is intuitive?
  562. # [22:11] <jgraham> Hixie: They can't obviously. But they could think that they can. Lots of bad UI designers do, for example :)
  563. # [22:11] <jgraham> s/do/think that/
  564. # [22:11] <Hixie> i don't think they do, i think they just do exactly what we do, which is make assumptions about what is intuitive
  565. # [22:11] <jgraham> s/think that/seem to think that/
  566. # [22:11] <Hixie> i don't think they they they do either
  567. # [22:12] <Hixie> er
  568. # [22:12] <Hixie> i don't think they think they do either
  569. # [22:12] <jgraham> Well it's not really important. The point is that it is possible to think that you can do the impossible
  570. # [22:12] <jgraham> (you might back it up with arguments like "we can use education to make people understand our model")
  571. # [22:13] <Hixie> education can't affect what's intuitive, by definition :-)
  572. # [22:14] <jgraham> Right but you often hear people say "x is intuitive once you understand principle y" which can be true or can be false. So people think that by teaching y they can make x intuitive
  573. # [22:15] <Hixie> i guess
  574. # [22:15] <jgraham> (but this is a bit of the point I was originally trying to make)
  575. # [22:15] <jgraham> (which is that I think the comment was meant in a different way to the one in which you interpreted it)
  576. # [22:16] <Hixie> that's certainly possible
  577. # [22:17] <archtech> Is this valid according to HTML5: <b>foo<br>bar</b>?
  578. # [22:17] <archtech> This is a bold tag that crosses theboundary of a line, although that line is an implicit tag
  579. # [22:17] <archtech> defined by a break
  580. # [22:18] <Hixie> aww, their archives are member-only http://wilbur.bytowninternet.com/mailman/listinfo/talk_html4all.org
  581. # [22:18] <Hixie> i guess the cabal doesn't believe in the level of transparency we believe in!
  582. # [22:18] <Hixie> what could they possibly have to hide
  583. # [22:19] <jgraham> I guess irony is lost on some people
  584. # [22:23] <Hixie> right, bbiab, lunch
  585. # [22:25] * Joins: arun_ (n=arun@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  586. # [22:25] <jacobolus> archtech: why wouldn't it be?
  587. # [22:26] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@ti0151a340-0332.bb.online.no)
  588. # [22:27] <archtech> jacobolus, the line break defines two implicit line elements, say I have this: Hello, this is <b>some bold text,<br>and we continue on a new line.</b> Done.
  589. # [22:27] <archtech> Now those are two lines
  590. # [22:27] <archtech> <line>Hello, this is <b>some bold text,</line><line>and we continue on a new line.</b> Done.</line>
  591. # [22:27] <archtech> There's no valid way to nest this.
  592. # [22:28] <jacobolus> the same could be said about the '.' character creating two implicit 'sentence' elements
  593. # [22:28] <jacobolus> etc.
  594. # [22:28] <archtech> My point is that a break is a metacharacter.
  595. # [22:29] <archtech> The actual objects are lines, are they not?
  596. # [22:29] <jacobolus> I don't think so, no
  597. # [22:29] <archtech> I see.
  598. # [22:29] <jacobolus> but I don't really know the browser internals that well
  599. # [22:30] <jacobolus> in any case, no, html5 doesn't to my knowledge mandate that "implicit line elements" not included anywhere in the dom be treated in any special fashion
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  604. # [22:42] <archtech> thanks
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  610. # [22:46] <shelleyp> Hixie, html4all cabal? Isn't that a pretty silly thing to say?
  611. # [22:47] <shelleyp> You know, you might try communicating with people, rather than make snarky asides in the IRC
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  623. # [22:56] <annevk42> jacobolus, per CSS you do get multiple line boxes, but you can get that with a single element as well
  624. # [22:56] <annevk42> (e.g. by just having line wrapping; <br> is nothing more than a forced wrap)
  625. # [22:57] <annevk42> (that's a lie to be honest, <br> has a few other tricks up its sleave)
  626. # [22:57] <jacobolus> annevk42: so you can style a particular line (besides the first)?
  627. # [22:57] <jacobolus> I mean, of course at some level lines, glyphs, etc. are objects
  628. # [22:58] <annevk42> there are proposals
  629. # [22:58] <jacobolus> but are the opposite sides of a <br> actually treated as special, "implicit objects"?
  630. # [22:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: I've used BitBucket to a trivial extent, and it worked trivially and I haven't seen any problems
  631. # [22:59] <annevk42> jacobolus, no, <br> in that sense is just a forced linebreak
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  635. # [23:04] <Hixie> shelleyp: i was just using the term that html4all participants themselves used for themselves: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-August/000004.html
  636. # [23:05] <Hixie> shelleyp: and i have been talking directly to everyone involved; i would involve myself in more discussions but since e.g. html4all is a closed group, it is not possible for me to do so
  637. # [23:05] * Joins: shelleyp (n=shelleyp@ppp-70-243-140-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
  638. # [23:07] <shelleyp> Hixie, the context of your use of the term belies your later justification
  639. # [23:08] <annevk42> html4all has two forums I think shelleyp
  640. # [23:08] <annevk42> one public and one private
  641. # [23:08] <annevk42> the former is no longer in use and is the one Hixie is pointing to
  642. # [23:08] <Hixie> i really was just using the term because that's how the group of people involved self-identifies
  643. # [23:08] <shelleyp> OK, and since the html4all group does not have controlling interest over any aspect of any W3C document, what's the point annevk42?
  644. # [23:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: (I suppose there's the question of what you mean by "proper hosting", seeing as Hg isn't reliant on a central repository like SVN and so the requirements can be looser)
  645. # [23:08] <Hixie> if you have a problem with the way the people you are associating with self-identify, i urge you to take it up with them
  646. # [23:09] <annevk42> shelleyp, point?
  647. # [23:09] * annevk42 was just trying to explain something
  648. # [23:09] <shelleyp> annevk42, Ah, OK, thanks for the explanation.
  649. # [23:09] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.224.1)
  650. # [23:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: (e.g. maybe the goal is that people can write "hg clone some-url-which-won't-change-ever", in which case BitBucket is nice because it can apparently do CNAMEs and you could move the same domain to a different host later)
  651. # [23:11] <shelleyp> Hixie, why you're concerned about this one group, I have no idea. There's plenty of people to communicate with on the HTML WG.
  652. # [23:12] <Hixie> i'm not in the least bit concerned about the html4all group
  653. # [23:12] <shelleyp> But communication has to be more than telling people that no, their idea won't work, and here's what you're going to do instead
  654. # [23:12] <Hixie> i agree entirely
  655. # [23:13] <shelleyp> Actually, I don't want to come across as pugnacious, but I'm not sure that you do agree with me
  656. # [23:13] <Hixie> i agree entirely that ignoring feedback and simply asserting positions is not a good way to participate in any group
  657. # [23:13] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  658. # [23:14] <shelleyp> Hixie, one could say that what you just described is quite similar to many of your recent communications with folks
  659. # [23:14] <Hixie> indeed many do, i'm sure
  660. # [23:14] <Hixie> mr last week for instance
  661. # [23:15] * Quits: arun_ (n=arun@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  662. # [23:15] <Hixie> though it's interesting that he hides behind a screen of anonymity to do so
  663. # [23:15] <shelleyp> I'm not talking about an anonymous individual.
  664. # [23:16] <Hixie> he is merely one example among many, indeed
  665. # [23:16] <Hixie> maybe even dozens :-)
  666. # [23:16] <shelleyp> No, he's not. The folks I'm talking about are those who participate in the groups, and identify themselves by name
  667. # [23:17] <Hixie> i am talking about all the people who claim that i ignore them despite my writing e-mails literally hundreds of lines long explaining my positions based on detailed research and reasoning
  668. # [23:18] <Hixie> mostly, if not exclusively, people who have found themselves not agreeing with my reasoning, sadly
  669. # [23:18] <shelleyp> Hixie, take a break, have a beer, come back and read the line you just wrote. You just about summed up the entire problem.
  670. # [23:18] <Hixie> i don't drink and i'm on a break right now, but thanks for the suggestion :-)
  671. # [23:18] <jacobolus> shelleyp: but quite often what happens, that I've observed, is that people re-write the same emails, completely ignoring Hixie's responses, and then pretend that he's ignoring them
  672. # [23:19] <jacobolus> it's frustrating even to just watch from the sidelines
  673. # [23:19] <Hixie> the sad truth of the matter is that on many topics, there are people with a variety of opinions, and i could never make the spec agree with them all
  674. # [23:19] <Hixie> so merely disagreeing with any one group doesn't mean i'm ignoring them, it merely means that they were not the group that was most convincing
  675. # [23:20] <shelleyp> Hixie, no one says you should. But when you're the only author of the spec, your being in a position of power means you have to go the extra mile
  676. # [23:20] <Hixie> it's not even that i'm just doing what i want -- there are a variety of things in the spec where the group that "won" is actually the group i disagree with
  677. # [23:20] <Hixie> (many things, in fact)
  678. # [23:20] <shelleyp> jacoblus, then that's incorrect -- people should specifically address Ian's comments in response
  679. # [23:20] <hober> He's already going the extra distance-unit-much-longer-than-a-mile
  680. # [23:22] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  681. # [23:22] <hober> I mean, seriously, exchanges of the form 1. initial feedback, 2. hixie replies with what's changed, rationale, etc., 3. "new" feedback which doesn't take anything in (2) into account and is in fact indistinguishable from (1) happen all too frequently
  682. # [23:23] <hober> Most people would stop replying with (2) at all, because all the work going into it doesn't seem to have any effect. Clearly Hixie isn't normal, to continue to engage like he does.
  683. # [23:23] <shelleyp> hober, Hixie has worked his butt off, and I appreciate his effort. But Ian also has a habit of discounting other's expertise, which is disrespectful
  684. # [23:23] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  685. # [23:24] <shelleyp> I only checked in because I was not happy to see the term "cabal", especially related to a hot topic like accessibility
  686. # [23:24] <shelleyp> I'm sure this group would rather get back to tech stuff
  687. # [23:24] <shelleyp> But I will remember what was said about people not responding to Ian's comments, and make sure that I do
  688. # [23:25] * Quits: shelleyp (n=shelleyp@ppp-70-243-140-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
  689. # [23:26] <sicking_> shelleyp, what i feel happens a lot is that people join and say "Do X. You should listen to me because i'm an expert". What would be much more useful is people saying "here is the argument for why you should do X"
  690. # [23:26] * sicking_ is now known as sicking
  691. # [23:28] * Joins: shelleyp (n=shelleyp@ppp-70-243-140-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
  692. # [23:29] <annevk42> I did not know: http://www.olsenhome.com/gif/
  693. # [23:30] <annevk42> I'm not sure what to do with this knowledge though, pronouncing it as "gift" seems more understandable...
  694. # [23:30] <shelleyp> sicking: I've not see that behavior. Can you point out where someone said that, specifically?
  695. # [23:31] <Philip`> annevk42: That's just prescriptivist pronunciation - you should ignore it and say it the sensible way with a hard 'g'
  696. # [23:32] <sicking> shelleyp, every time someone tries to argue from authority. If you have expertise you shouldn't have to point it out i'd think. It should be obvious from your well layed out arguments
  697. # [23:36] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  698. # [23:37] <jruderman> the simple solution is to switch from GIF to PNG ... except that PNG can also be pronounced in two ways
  699. # [23:37] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009030221 [Firefox 3.6a1pre/20090611030757]")
  700. # [23:38] <annevk42> yeah, they should've called it PING
  701. # [23:38] <hober> PNG gets pronounced like "ping" (and GIF like "jiff")
  702. # [23:39] <hober> What's the other way to say PNG? "pong"?
  703. # [23:39] <annevk42> s/gets/is supposed to be/
  704. # [23:39] <gavin_> pee en gee
  705. # [23:39] <annevk42> that's how I call it usually
  706. # [23:40] <Philip`> You could pronounce it like "snog" but with a p
  707. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Philip`: Instead of the s? I can't get it out as one syllable then :P
  708. # [23:42] <Hixie> "spog"?
  709. # [23:42] <Hixie> "snpg"?
  710. # [23:44] * Joins: arun_ (n=arun@guest-224.mv.mozilla.com)
  711. # [23:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes
  712. # [23:45] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's not any harder than plenty of syllables in other languages :-p
  713. # [23:49] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.224.1)
  714. # [23:58] <shelleyp> sicking: your argument makes no sense. I, for one, am more likely to listen to someone with proven experience and expertise in the field, then someone who doesn't
  715. # [23:59] <sicking> shelleyp, right, but to most people on the list, someone saying that they have expertise is not a "proven expert"
  716. # Session Close: Fri Jun 12 00:00:00 2009

The end :)