/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <sicking> shelleyp, since they haven't spent time in that field
  4. # [00:00] <shelleyp> sicking: again, I've not seen anyone imply an expertise they don't have -- not in any of the debates I've followed
  5. # [00:01] <sicking> shelleyp, the word "expertiese" have been brought up several times. Though it could be that most of the time in the form of "people on this list isn't listening to experts"
  6. # [00:01] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@static-72-28-92-61.gtcust.grouptelecom.net)
  7. # [00:01] <sicking> shelleyp, i don't want to get into a meta discussion here though, that's just a time waster
  8. # [00:02] <shelleyp> sicking: I agree. If you find specific examples, twitter or email me with them.
  9. # [00:02] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.4)
  10. # [00:02] <sicking> shelleyp, next time i see it i'll email it to you
  11. # [00:03] <shelleyp> sicking: thanks.
  12. # [00:03] * Quits: shelleyp (n=shelleyp@ppp-70-243-140-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
  13. # [00:06] <sicking> shelleyp, i'll note though, that the page you linked to today, from WAI CG, contains very little rationale
  14. # [00:06] <sicking> shelleyp, i happen to agree with most of it, but that's beside the point
  15. # [00:08] <sicking> shelleyp, either they think that the rationale is obvious, which it IMHO it isn't, or they are arguing that we should listen to them because they have expertise. Though I'm hoping it's because of some other reason that I can't think of
  16. # [00:10] <arun_> I have a rough editor's draft of the File API spec, which I'd welcome discussion on. There are a few issues with it still (Callbacks *and* ErrorCallbacks have to be handled; editorial nits; sample code nits) but I'd love to get feedback from the channel: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileUpload/publish/FileAPI.xhtml
  17. # [00:11] <annevk42> .xhtml? o_O :p
  18. # [00:11] <arun_> annevk42, it was just convenient to edit.
  19. # [00:11] <arun_> I'll change that
  20. # [00:11] <annevk42> I was joking, no worries
  21. # [00:12] <arun_> In particular, I'd like to hear about FileDialog. I think it's a good idea, but I've had nits to the effect that honing <input type="file" ... > behavior is better.
  22. # [00:13] <annevk42> "This interface describes a single file in a FileList," I think something else for this would work better since we might not always want to have them in lists
  23. # [00:13] <sicking> yeah, i had some comments like that too
  24. # [00:13] <Hixie> to repeat the comments i made privately: you'll want to make better use of rfc2119, and i recommend splitting File into two, FileData with everything but the name, and File with the name, where File inherits from FileData
  25. # [00:13] <sicking> it also assumes that lists come from the FileDialog
  26. # [00:14] <annevk42> would FileData be like Blob?
  27. # [00:14] <sicking> that was my question too
  28. # [00:15] <sicking> i'm not sure if Blob will have a mimetype though?
  29. # [00:16] <Hixie> File doesn't have a mime type either right now does it?
  30. # [00:16] <arun_> Hixie, agree on rfc2119. I'm amenable to splitting File into two. You'd want a slice() on FileData at some point, I take it, for "blobs"?
  31. # [00:16] <annevk42> I'd rather tie it to HTMLInputElement and DataTransfer than to FileDialog to be honest
  32. # [00:16] <Hixie> i agree that whatever File inherits from shouldn't have a type
  33. # [00:16] <sicking> Hixie, hmm.. good point, i think they should
  34. # [00:17] <sicking> Hixie, or rather, in the firefox implementation they do
  35. # [00:17] <Hixie> arun_: yeah that would be one of the ways this would get extended
  36. # [00:17] <Hixie> arun_: similarly binary data coming from a WebSocket would be a FileData (or Binary or Blob or whatever you prefer), not a File
  37. # [00:17] <sicking> Hixie, oh, no, they don't
  38. # [00:17] <annevk42> spawning file picker dialogs to users seems open to abuse and we already have somewhat sandboxed way for picking files we can reuse
  39. # [00:17] <arun_> OK; you also suggested that obliging developers to handle both the data callback and the error callback was a stylistic choice. No strong opinions either way?
  40. # [00:18] <sicking> Hixie, ah, now i remember, we figured it was mostly useful for piecing together a data: uri, but since we expose a data: uri we didn't feel that mimetype was that important
  41. # [00:19] <Hixie> arun: that's just an api design decision, no right answer really. personally i design callback-style apis such that they call either the success or the failure callbacks, never both, but it depends on the way you'd expect them to be used.
  42. # [00:19] <annevk42> while we brainstorm, it would be sort of nice to just like with XMLHttpRequest you can get a Document out of it and maybe even HTMLImageElement / ImageData / JSON
  43. # [00:20] <Hixie> getting an HTMLImageElement would be nice, but long term what would be even nicer is being able to get a short (not data:) URL out of it
  44. # [00:20] <arun_> annevk42, I agree it is open to abuse. I had an ednote about conditions where implementations would want to define when to raise a FileError with a SECURITY_ERR, and FileDialog abuse seemed like a prime choice.
  45. # [00:20] <sicking> annevk42, since it's an async API, the UA can show a unintrusive warning if it suspects misuse. A'la GeoLocation
  46. # [00:20] <annevk42> sicking, but why have two ways to do things?
  47. # [00:21] <Hixie> e.g. .getAsUrl() and it returns "magic-file-or-whatever://origin.example.com/0" where that URL works only for browsing contexts in the same origin
  48. # [00:21] <arun_> Basically, major web applications like Flickr and GMail use the Flash uploader. Sure, we could address some of this by changing how user agents handle input type="file", but a programmatic FileDialog seemed useful.
  49. # [00:21] <sicking> annevk42, because a lot of sites are working around the uglyness of the current <input type=file>
  50. # [00:21] <Hixie> that would let us automatically take a FileData object and plug it into anything like <video> or <img> or whatever
  51. # [00:21] <sicking> annevk42, gmail being an obvious example
  52. # [00:21] <annevk42> I'd argue we should solve that with CSS, not ECMAScript
  53. # [00:22] <annevk42> the reason Gmail/Flickr use Flash for uploading is mostly multiple files (<input type=file multiple>) and I suppose async upload (using XMLHttpRequest)
  54. # [00:22] <arun_> annevk42, it's not just ugliness, it's also functionality, but HTML5 does allow input type="file" to have multiple selects, etc. I'm in two minds about this.
  55. # [00:22] <sicking> annevk42, no-one has been able to crack that nut for many many years now
  56. # [00:22] <annevk42> did we even try?
  57. # [00:23] <annevk42> for many years progress on CSS has been so-so
  58. # [00:23] <sicking> styling UI elements have been attempted many times i think
  59. # [00:23] <sicking> webkit is currently attempting scrollbars
  60. # [00:23] <sicking> there has been suggestions of various pseudo-elements
  61. # [00:23] <arun_> Hixie, wouldn't that mean defining yet another URI scheme?
  62. # [00:24] <sicking> Hixie, an alternative would be to have streams
  63. # [00:24] <Hixie> arun_: yes
  64. # [00:24] <Hixie> sicking: well i imagine we'd need streams to use the same feature
  65. # [00:25] <arun_> Hixie, that doesn't seem desirable. I'd like that use case better articulated.
  66. # [00:25] <sicking> Hixie, i agree it's something we should look into, not sure if it needs to be part of this spec though. At least not initial version
  67. # [00:25] <Hixie> sicking: unless we want to add an API to everything that accepts a url :-) (e.g. background-image in CSS, list-style-image... SVG...)
  68. # [00:25] <Hixie> sicking: absolutely, not for this version
  69. # [00:25] <annevk42> Hixie, how can the URL be shorter than with data URLs?
  70. # [00:25] <Hixie> annevk42: it wouldn't include the data
  71. # [00:26] <Hixie> annevk42: just a locally minted pointer to the data
  72. # [00:26] <sicking> Hixie, agreed, we might need both
  73. # [00:26] <Hixie> annevk42: this would not be the kind of URL that ever goes over the wire
  74. # [00:26] <annevk42> oh I see
  75. # [00:26] <arun_> Hixie, hmmm... now I get that better
  76. # [00:26] <sicking> annevk42, magical elves
  77. # [00:26] <annevk42> fancy
  78. # [00:26] <sicking> annevk42, with pixie dust
  79. # [00:26] <sicking> it's pretty awesome
  80. # [00:26] <annevk42> hixie dust
  81. # [00:26] <Hixie> anyway i wouldn't expect this for this version
  82. # [00:27] <Hixie> but i think it's a better solution long term than getting HTMLImageElements out of FileData objects
  83. # [00:27] <sicking> yeah
  84. # [00:27] <sicking> i think we can stick to data-uris for now
  85. # [00:27] <arun_> OK, this is good stuff. I'll leave FileDialog in for now, but clean up File a bit more, maybe break it into two (File, FileData or something)
  86. # [00:27] <sicking> otherwise we'll have to define things like what File.magicalHTMLImageProducer().src returns and such
  87. # [00:28] <annevk42> i'm still opposed to FileDialog fwiw
  88. # [00:28] <annevk42> I'd rather wait and see if <input type=file multiple> + XHR can do the trick
  89. # [00:28] <arun_> annevk42, so's Hixie. But I'm unmoved for now ;-)
  90. # [00:28] <sicking> annevk42, XHR??
  91. # [00:28] <Hixie> i'm not a fan of FileDialog either, i think leaving the security to the last minute is a bad way of doing things
  92. # [00:28] <sicking> annevk42, you mean CSS?
  93. # [00:28] <Hixie> i don't mind something new, but security needs to be first and foremost in mind
  94. # [00:29] <sicking> Hixie, how is it different from geolocation?
  95. # [00:29] <Hixie> such that the entire design precludes abuse
  96. # [00:29] <annevk42> sicking, people articulated the desire for async upload / fragment upload
  97. # [00:29] <arun_> Hixie, I'm not sure we're quite leaving it to the last minute; we're discussing it out of the starter gate :)
  98. # [00:29] <Hixie> sicking: geolocation doesn't pop up a modal dialog
  99. # [00:29] <sicking> Hixie, neither would this need to
  100. # [00:29] <arun_> Hixie, even here, we're NOT suggesting a modal dialog
  101. # [00:29] <arun_> Hixie, in fact I mention a non-modal one
  102. # [00:29] <Hixie> arun_: what i mean is that you have the API designed before the security solution
  103. # [00:29] <sicking> Hixie, no, we talked about this a lot
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  105. # [00:30] <sicking> Hixie, not sure if all possible implementation strategies ended up in the draft, but we have several in mind
  106. # [00:30] <Hixie> arun_: what flash does is a modal dialog. If it's supposed to be something else, then that's better, but the spec needs to make that crystal clear, not just leave it up to hte UA.
  107. # [00:30] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  108. # [00:30] <Hixie> arun_: and if it's not what flash does, then it's not clear it addresses the same use case :-)
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  110. # [00:31] <arun_> Hixie, ahh, there are two things here. 1. The actual File Picker and 2. The user interaction for permission. But yeah, that must be made clearer.
  111. # [00:31] <sicking> Hixie, what I want to do is to leave it up to the UA to decide what to do, but give a few non-normative possible strategies that the implementation can use
  112. # [00:32] <annevk42> modal or non-modal it's a new API for authors, new UI for users (sounds more complex already) and more complexity for implementors
  113. # [00:32] <annevk42> for something that's already possible
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  115. # [00:33] <arun_> annevk42, good points -- I think really explaining the use case will get us on the way to resolution.
  116. # [00:33] <annevk42> the main use case I'm hearing is styling
  117. # [00:33] <annevk42> i'm not at all convinced that's a good reason
  118. # [00:34] <annevk42> there's been no attempt whatsoever by any browser at letting authors style the file input control
  119. # [00:34] <arun_> annevk42, we could say that the *existing* input type ="file" mechanism in browsers today is ugly and causes developers of big web apps to use Flash. FileDialog is one solution, and doesn't need to be bound to using an element in your application.
  120. # [00:34] <annevk42> people use Flash because they can allow users to pick multiple files
  121. # [00:34] <annevk42> that's far more a reason than styling
  122. # [00:34] <sicking> annevk42, It's a complaint I hear a lot, that people think that <input type=file> is ugly and wanting to use something else.
  123. # [00:34] <arun_> But multiple selections (as spec'd in HTML5) is a big reason.
  124. # [00:35] <sicking> annevk42, i don't think it's the whole truth that people use flash just for multiple
  125. # [00:35] <arun_> annevk42, yes -- multiple selection is a big one, and if that's the prime use case, I agree that it can be solved within input type = "file" ... but I'm not sure it is
  126. # [00:36] <annevk42> sicking, yes, but address the styling problem where it should be addressed
  127. # [00:36] <sicking> annevk42, first of all I think that many people aren't able to select multiple files in a filepicker anyway (requires keyboard shortcuts on windows)
  128. # [00:36] <annevk42> arun_, my suggestion is to first fix multiple selections and async upload for files and then see if it's good enough
  129. # [00:36] <annevk42> sicking, no, you can just drag around with your mouse iirc
  130. # [00:37] <sicking> annevk42, ah, yeah, if files have neighboring names
  131. # [00:37] <annevk42> for photo sites that seems likely
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  133. # [00:37] <sicking> annevk42, true
  134. # [00:38] <sicking> annevk42, for gmail, not so sure
  135. # [00:38] <annevk42> depends on what people attach primarily
  136. # [00:38] <annevk42> hixie would be in a better place to answer that one I guess :)
  137. # [00:38] <sicking> annevk42, and again, i'm not convinced people generally know about that
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  139. # [00:38] <sicking> annevk42, we can of course ask google :)
  140. # [00:39] <annevk42> but you're talking about users, i was suggesting why web developers want it
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  142. # [00:39] <sicking> i mean we can ask google why they use flash
  143. # [00:39] <sicking> i.e. what made them not consider HTML good enough
  144. # [00:39] <annevk42> when i log in to gmail it doesn't use flash
  145. # [00:42] <Lachy> wow, so html4all moved to a whole new secret list now? That explains why I've had no mails from the old list for a few months
  146. # [00:42] <annevk42> but yeah, there should definitely be substantive evidence that we really need to introduce another API for opening a file dialog
  147. # [00:42] <annevk42> imo
  148. # [00:43] <sicking> arun_, it occurred to me that we should specify the .files property on HTMLInputElement as well though
  149. # [00:43] <sicking> arun_, if you aren't already
  150. # [00:44] <Hixie> i'll do that in html5
  151. # [00:44] <Hixie> i've been waiting for this spec
  152. # [00:44] <Hixie> i have a whole folder of issues to deal with that are blocked on not having this spec
  153. # [00:46] <sicking> Hixie, ah, cool
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  155. # [00:48] <ojan> annevk42: I see a flash uploader in gmail.
  156. # [00:49] <annevk42> I don't :)
  157. # [00:49] * Joins: arun_ (n=arun@guest-224.mv.mozilla.com)
  158. # [00:50] <sicking> annevk42, do you have flash installed and enabled? They detect if you don't and then just use a normal <input type=file>
  159. # [00:50] <annevk42> yes, when I go to youtube.com I can see videos of weird people
  160. # [00:51] <sicking> weird people = flash. Check!
  161. # [00:51] <sicking> annevk42, note that you have to click on 'attach' for any of this to happen
  162. # [00:51] <annevk42> I know
  163. # [00:51] <annevk42> I checked the source
  164. # [00:51] <annevk42> <input id=":jz" name="f_fvu266070" class="LIODqc" size="50" tabindex="2" type="file">
  165. # [00:51] <sicking> annevk42, and that there won't be any weird people indicating flash on gmail
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  167. # [00:51] <sicking> annevk42, dunno, appears they're failing to detect flash for you then
  168. # [00:52] <sicking> annevk42, WFM
  169. # [00:52] <arun_> annevk42, for me too. It seems to invoke Flash pretty consistently.
  170. # [00:52] <arun_> annevk42, and the experience when i turn off Flash is dramatically different.
  171. # [00:53] <arun_> annevk42, though I should say, I'm a weird person.
  172. # [00:53] <annevk42> to test this I'm using Firefox 3.0 for Ubuntu which is the only browser where I have Flash
  173. # [00:53] <arun_> annevk42, OK, I'll bet there's a "Flash version doesn't do foo on Ubuntu" issue which causes you to always default to the HTML input element for file selection.
  174. # [00:55] <annevk42> anyway, whether Gmail does or does not use Flash does not really sway my opinion one way or another :)
  175. # [00:57] <arun_> annevk42, it shouldn't. i just want a good sense for *why*. Sure, there's multiple selection and style, but I'm interested in other features.
  176. # [00:58] <arun_> So this has been great. I'm going to tweak it and report back :)
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  184. # [01:10] <jwalden_> hsivonen: #undef UNICODE /* Stupid Windows CE C++ compiler. */ ?
  185. # [01:16] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@121-72-164-70.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  186. # [01:18] <annevk42> jwalden_, it's a reserved word or something
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  189. # [01:20] <jwalden_> annevk42: you sure? my experience is that most collisions are from idiotic macro names in the Windows SDK
  190. # [01:21] <jwalden_> and an #undef takes care of them, as long as you don't need to use the name in a header that might shared a large number of places
  191. # [01:22] <annevk42> that's what https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=497580 suggests
  192. # [01:22] * annevk42 follows bugs with "html5"
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  194. # [01:29] <jwalden_> it really is quite appropriate that the abbreviation for that platform is WINCE
  195. # [01:29] <annevk42> is WINCE Windows Mobile?
  196. # [01:37] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@hdh-1-pt.tunnel.tserv20.hkg1.ipv6.he.net)
  197. # [01:40] <jcranmer> Windows Compact Edition
  198. # [01:40] <jcranmer> so yes
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  210. # [02:55] <doublec> Windows Mobile is based on WINCE but the version numbers are different. Windows Mobile 6 is not based on WINCE 6 for example.
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  212. # [02:55] <doublec> it's based on WINCE 5
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  291. # [09:44] <jgraham> Finally an <audio> demo: http://evilbrainjono.net/piano.html Bets on when the first song made like this reaches the charts?
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  299. # [10:18] * jwalden wishes so many keyboard-using demos didn't have issues when the browser in use has a default action associated with the key in question
  300. # [10:19] <jwalden> find as you type horks things like that pretty hard
  301. # [10:23] <hsivonen> jwalden: yeah, I can probably just #undef UNICODE. silly me. (shows my newbieness with approaching Windows compilation issues)
  302. # [10:24] <jwalden> not being corrupted in that manner is not necessarily bad :-)
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  305. # [10:27] <Philip`> Re last night (UTC): Surely a URL that has totally different meanings in different contexts would be violating some fundamental architecture of HTTP? (like the whole "Uniform" bit of "URL")
  306. # [10:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: if it's not an HTTP URL, you wouldn't be violationg HTTP but maybe AWWW
  307. # [10:30] <annevk42> context-dependent identifiers are acceptable
  308. # [10:30] <annevk42> e.g. localhost
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  310. # [10:38] <jwalden> heck, all of DNS
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  322. # [12:11] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=49#5022 - in a couple of days, another newly registered user will reply with a URL, and i will delete both posts as spam
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  325. # [12:13] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22What+is+the+best+GPS+Navigation+system+I+can+buy+for+my%22
  326. # [12:13] * zcorpan deletes it now instead
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  333. # [12:51] <annevk42> whoever invented sync XHR be doomed
  334. # [12:53] <jgraham> annevk42: We're *all* doomed (for some sutiable definition of doomed)
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  341. # [13:03] <annevk42> jgraham, that's not helpful
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  343. # [13:10] <jgraham> annevk42: I think introducing "imminent doom" as the punishment for inventing bad apis would rapidly deplete the already worryingly empty pool of wwilling specification editors
  344. # [13:10] <jgraham> Although maybe it is a fairer punishment for introducing bad non-standard apis that everyone else than has to adopt
  345. # [13:10] <jgraham> Since it would encourage people to seek peer review
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  347. # [13:17] <annevk42> again, not helping!
  348. # [13:17] <annevk42> :)
  349. # [13:32] * hsivonen finds reftests failing due to HTML5 now discarding incomplete tag tokens
  350. # [13:32] <hsivonen> apparently not trying to test incomplete tokens, though
  351. # [13:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: How come the reftests have all these weird dependencies on parsing?
  352. # [13:34] <jgraham> (apart from ones that test parsing)
  353. # [13:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: they are written by people
  354. # [13:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: OK, so it is just bugs in the tests rather than something fundamental
  355. # [13:35] <jgraham> That's basically what I was wondering
  356. # [13:36] <annevk42> from some earlier conversation about this it was mostly autogenerated tests from Philip` that had this issue
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  358. # [13:45] <hsivonen> anyway, lacking ">" in the string set as the value of innerHTML is something to watch out for in case it matters for Web compat
  359. # [13:48] <rubys> hsivonen: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/06/12/Validator-Nu-on-GCJ
  360. # [13:49] <hsivonen> rubys: cool!
  361. # [13:51] <jgraham> rubys: Did you run the testsuite?
  362. # [13:52] <rubys> against HTML2XML? That's all I have built so far.
  363. # [13:52] <jgraham> Against the htmlparser
  364. # [13:52] * jgraham guesses no then
  365. # [13:53] <jgraham> (Also I make not be making much sense since I don't really know how hsivonen's code is organised)
  366. # [13:53] * rubys mutters people are *so* impatient. :-)
  367. # [13:54] * hsivonen deals with *new* reftests that assume <col> becomes a child of <table>
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  379. # [15:15] * hsivonen finds a test case failing because <div> breaks out of <p><span> in HTML5
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  400. # [16:00] * gsnedders buys headphones
  401. # [16:00] * gsnedders can't believe he really just spent that much on headphones :P
  402. # [16:01] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  403. # [16:04] <Lachy> gsnedders, what type of headphones did you buy and how much?
  404. # [16:04] <gsnedders> Lachy: Audio-Technica ATH-M50
  405. # [16:05] <gsnedders> just under £120
  406. # [16:07] <Lachy> why did you need such expensive headphones?
  407. # [16:08] <gsnedders> Lachy: audiophilia? :P
  408. # [16:08] <gsnedders> Lachy: Also needing something with very little sound leakage, and comfy
  409. # [16:09] <Lachy> Do you have exceptional hearing ability, and are you able to hear the difference in quality?
  410. # [16:09] <gsnedders> Lachy: yes
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  412. # [16:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: Also, a lot of cheaper headphones (esp. those under £60, the real reason for the high price is getting one which meets all three requirements) have either weak bass of treble which almost anyone will notice
  413. # [16:11] <Lachy> can you also tell the difference between a lossless recording and a high quality, though compressed, 256kbps AAC or 320kbps MP3?
  414. # [16:11] <gsnedders> No, my hearing isn't that good.
  415. # [16:11] <annevk42> whoa, I thought my EUR 30 headphones were expensive
  416. # [16:12] <Lachy> annevk42, that's about the price range of my headphones, I think. They're good enough for me
  417. # [16:13] * gsnedders would get annoyed at the sound quality of more or less all 30 EUR headphones :P
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  419. # [16:19] <Lachy> I want to get a good quality headset to replace my USB headset, which instead works with the 3.5mm optical output on my Mac. But I haven't found one yet.
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  421. # [16:31] * jgraham has lousy hearing but quite nice 80EURish in ear headphones
  422. # [16:31] <jgraham> Which I bought for the noise reduction rather than the playback quality
  423. # [16:32] <jgraham> Although the build quality is insufficent
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  425. # [16:33] <Lachy> anyone know of a good quality, stereo, wireless headset/mic, suitable for general use, like skype calls or youtube videos?
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  430. # [16:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: in ear headphones I tend to find uncomfortable, and also normally a lot of sound leakage
  431. # [16:47] <gsnedders> (And also tend to be too small to get any really good quality)
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  435. # [16:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: WFM
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  437. # [16:51] <ezyang> I have PX 200 headphones: they're small, but surprisingly good quality for their size.
  438. # [16:52] <jgraham> I mean they're not super comfortable for many hour periods but for being on a noisy office or, especially, on a plane they make much more sense than anything else
  439. # [16:52] <gsnedders> ezyang: But they're Sennheiser headphones, so that's not overly surprising :P
  440. # [16:52] <ezyang> I <3 my headphones
  441. # [16:53] * jgraham doesn't understand why gsnedders thinks they wwould have a lot of sound leakage
  442. # [16:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: They tend not to have much to stop the sound from getting out
  443. # [16:54] <ezyang> If it sounds good, does it really matter?
  444. # [16:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: The ones I'm talking about are the ones that are basically an earplug with a headphone in the middle
  445. # [16:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: I know
  446. # [16:55] <gsnedders> ezyang: If you're in an office, you don't want sound leakage.
  447. # [16:55] <ezyang> I have an officemate who plays music on speakers, so YMMV
  448. # [16:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: They have a ear plug thing to stop sound getting out
  449. # [16:56] * jgraham hasn't actually measured this so could be wrong
  450. # [16:56] <jgraham> Also I tend to be able to play music at lower volumes because it is quieter
  451. # [16:56] * gsnedders tends to listen to music fairly quietly too
  452. # [16:56] * ezyang cranks it up
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  455. # [17:01] <Lachy> I can't listen to music on headphones and work at the same time. It's too distracting
  456. # [17:01] <Lachy> though, I have less difficulty if the music is on relatively low in the background
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  464. # [17:13] <Lachy> Apparently Apple are changing the default gamma in Snow Leopard to match Windows. http://www.tuaw.com/2009/06/12/make-your-displays-gamma-in-leopard-match-snow-leopard/
  465. # [17:13] <Lachy> so at least in theory, colours should start to look the same on both platforms
  466. # [17:15] <jgraham> Lachy: We had this conversation a few days ago. For images it still depends if the image has a built-in colour profile and if your viewing software supports it or not
  467. # [17:17] <Lachy> jgraham, I know
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  472. # [17:39] <jgraham> A hint to people writing testsuites: the more complex you make your harness, the more complex it is to figure out what is actually going on
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  476. # [17:59] <anne-m> mpt, if I want Ubuntu to get the wireless driver issues to be sorted out; where would the best place be to donate money?
  477. # [18:00] * mpt blinks
  478. # [18:00] <anne-m> mpt, due to some upgrade my mother's computer suddenly switched to the non-proprietary drivers that made DNS resolving suck bigtime
  479. # [18:00] <mpt> from the Random Questions Department :-)
  480. # [18:01] <mpt> hm, one moment, I'll ask around
  481. # [18:01] <anne-m> mpt, took me a long time (20min or so) to figure out it was a driver issue and how I could switch back to the proprietary driver
  482. # [18:01] <anne-m> mpt, you're basically the only person I know that is closely involved :)
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  484. # [18:03] <mpt> anne-m, do you happen to know which driver it is?
  485. # [18:04] <mpt> (Different people work on different drivers)
  486. # [18:04] <anne-m> the proprietary one is madwifi and the non-proprietary one (that I had to disable) is ath5k
  487. # [18:06] <mpt> madwifi and ath5k are both open-source drivers produced by the MadWifi project <http://madwifi-project.org/>
  488. # [18:06] <mpt> "ath5k is a relatively new and emerging driver and ... is intended to replace MadWifi in the long run"
  489. # [18:07] <gauthierm> What events should be fired when dragging the scrubber on a media element? FIrefox alphas fire play/pause events as well as seeking and seeked. Safari fires only seeking/seeked.
  490. # [18:07] <mpt> anne-m, so the answer to your question is <http://madwifi-project.org/wiki/Donations>
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  493. # [18:11] <anne-m> thanks mpt (though weird that "Hardware Drivers" says madwifi is proprietary)
  494. # [18:11] * virtuelv applauds the "where can I donate" attitude instead of "xxx sucks"
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  513. # [19:57] <thin> how many lines of code to draw a triangle, stroke it black and fill it grey?
  514. # [19:57] <thin> with canvas
  515. # [19:58] <thin> approximately
  516. # [19:58] <annevk42> 1
  517. # [19:59] <thin> will it someday be possible to generate pixel data with canvas/javascript, drop that into the dom as one of those data nodes, then use that image data as a background image in my css?
  518. # [20:00] <gauthierm> probably already possible, but you'd have to write an encoder to encode the pixel data.
  519. # [20:03] <thin> for certain small images do you think doing what I described might be a faster option than using an actual image file?
  520. # [20:06] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@204.244.250.162)
  521. # [20:07] <thin> Are there any open source, web-friendly image formats trying to compete with jpg/gif/png like ogg is with video/audio?
  522. # [20:07] <annevk42> I think WebKit has an extension to CSS for that
  523. # [20:07] <annevk42> thin, JPEG/PNG/GIF are not open enough for you?
  524. # [20:08] <thin> wasn't there some hub-bub about gif files a few years back?
  525. # [20:08] <annevk42> But you can already do toDataURL() on your <canvas> and then plug that into your CSS through the CSSOM
  526. # [20:08] <annevk42> thin, I think that patent expired by now
  527. # [20:08] <annevk42> thin, or was invalidated
  528. # [20:08] * annevk42 forgot
  529. # [20:09] <thin> are you anne van kesteren?
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  534. # [20:11] <annevk42> thin, yes
  535. # [20:11] <thin> cool, I like your blog
  536. # [20:11] <annevk42> :)
  537. # [20:11] <gauthierm> thin: png was created as a response to the gif patent.
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  549. # [20:44] <annevk42> donated
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  554. # [20:50] * jgraham wonders how donations to small software development efforts works
  555. # [20:50] <jgraham> Like how does the money affect the development
  556. # [20:51] <jgraham> I can understand "here is $x to do y"
  557. # [20:52] <jgraham> But "Here is $x to make it better" doesn't have any obvious impact unless sum($x_i) is enough for the developers to give up (part of) their outside job
  558. # [20:53] <gauthierm> Is anyone here working on the HTMLMediaElement spec?
  559. # [20:53] <annevk42> jgraham, I'd imagine part of the money is used for buying the hardware
  560. # [20:53] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  561. # [20:54] <annevk42> jgraham, but I trust them to do the right thing
  562. # [20:54] <jgraham> Oh I guess for a hardware driver project that does make sense
  563. # [20:54] <annevk42> gauthierm, as in editing it? I guess Hixie
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  566. # [20:55] <Hixie> gauthierm: i'm editing that part of html5 right now
  567. # [20:55] <jgraham> annevk42: I'm not suggesting you did anything silly. I'm just curious what the dynamics are when one donates to a (pure software) project
  568. # [20:55] <gauthierm> Hixie: Cool. I'm having some trouble with media events when the scrubber is clicked and dragged.
  569. # [20:56] <gauthierm> Some browsers fire a 'pause' when you click and hold the scrubber and others do not.
  570. # [20:56] <annevk42> jgraham, I hope it actually works; I've had issues using my MasterCard online
  571. # [20:56] <gauthierm> Hixie: Is one implementation correct, or is that not covered by the spec?
  572. # [20:58] <Hixie> gauthierm: that's basically a user interface issue, so it depends on whether the browser implementor wants the video to continue playing when you let go of the scrubber or not
  573. # [20:58] <Hixie> gauthierm: or whether they want it to play as you're dragging
  574. # [20:59] <annevk42> Hixie, so the way this "Geopriv" works is that the user sets a bunch of variables and the author then either honors them or does his own thing?
  575. # [20:59] <gauthierm> ok. The extra events are causing a problem for me in Firefox in particular. Perhaps I should bug them to fire extra events when the interface is interacted with.
  576. # [20:59] <gauthierm> afaik, both Firefox and Safari's interface is the same, but the events fired are different.
  577. # [21:00] <Hixie> annevk42: as far as i can tell, except that the settings get set in the browser's ui instead of the page's ui, so the user thinks it's the browser who's going to control it (and who is to blame, of course, when it inevitably gets ignored)
  578. # [21:00] <Hixie> gauthierm: which events?
  579. # [21:00] <annevk42> Hixie, wow :/
  580. # [21:00] * annevk42 sends email
  581. # [21:00] <gauthierm> Hixie: Firefox fires play/pause when you drag the scrubber. Safari does not.
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  583. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk42: note that the proposal isn't really geopriv, it's something else. Geopriv itself is an XML format for transmitting geo data with privacy controls, which i think makes a lot of sense (and has nothing to do with UI)
  584. # [21:01] <Hixie> gauthierm: does safari keep playing the video if you just hold the scrubber without moving it?
  585. # [21:01] <gauthierm> Hixie: checking now
  586. # [21:01] <annevk42> Hixie, mkay, somewhat confusing title then
  587. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk42: yeah
  588. # [21:02] <gauthierm> Hixie: Safari does pause playback when you drag teh scrubber.
  589. # [21:04] <Hixie> gauthierm: then that's a safari bug, it should be pausing the video in the api too
  590. # [21:06] <gauthierm> ok. It would be nice from a JavaScript developer's perspective if there was a way to know whether the video was paused through clicking the pause button or paused through dragging the scrubber.
  591. # [21:07] <gauthierm> The way it's implemented in Mozilla at least, the two are impossible to distinguish.
  592. # [21:11] <gauthierm> Hixie: If I'm filing a bug with Webkit, is that behaviour specified in section 4.8.10.11?
  593. # [21:14] <Hixie> gauthierm: yeah "Where possible (specifically, for starting, stopping, pausing, and unpausing playback, for muting or changing the volume of the audio, and for seeking), user interface features exposed by the user agent must be implemented in terms of the DOM API described above, so that, e.g., all the same events fire."
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  597. # [21:22] * Philip` got "here is $x to do y" for his font subsetting tool, which was nice and unexpected
  598. # [21:23] <Philip`> hsivonen / annevk42: Re URLs: Oh, good point(s)
  599. # [21:23] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-83.dynamic.amis.net)
  600. # [21:27] <annevk42> URLs? My memory is failing me... :/
  601. # [21:28] <Philip`> annevk42: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090612#l-305
  602. # [21:29] <annevk42> aah
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  613. # [21:43] <annevk42> Hixie, the second of "similar note in audio codecs section" should have s/audio/video
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  621. # [21:48] <Hixie> d'oh
  622. # [21:49] <Hixie> btw
  623. # [21:49] <Hixie> i hate software patents
  624. # [21:49] <Hixie> 16bit wave? really? that's the best we can do?
  625. # [21:49] <Hixie> and nothing at all for video?
  626. # [21:49] <Hixie> what bs
  627. # [21:50] <sicking> flac is patented?
  628. # [21:51] * sicking is surprised that microsoft doesn't have patents on wave
  629. # [21:51] <Hixie> apple won't implement codecs that have a submarine patent risk that they haven't already taken on
  630. # [21:51] <sicking> *that* is bs
  631. # [21:52] <sicking> and a lie
  632. # [21:52] <sicking> *everything* has submarine patent risk
  633. # [21:52] <annevk42> lots of big companies have taken the risk with vorbis, including Microsoft IIRC
  634. # [21:52] <Hixie> mozilla won't implement codecs that require patent licenses unless they can cover their redistributors, which they can't
  635. # [21:52] <Hixie> opera won't implement codecs that require paying money
  636. # [21:52] <Hixie> sicking: "that they haven't already taken on" is a key part of that sentence
  637. # [21:53] <Hixie> and i'm not arguing about who's right or wrong
  638. # [21:53] <Hixie> because frankly it doesn't matter
  639. # [21:53] <sicking> Hixie, no, i mean implementing cross-site XHR has submarine patent risk
  640. # [21:53] <Hixie> they could not want to implement codecs that didn't start with an "A" and we'd still be in the same boat
  641. # [21:53] <sicking> Hixie, implementing @font-face has submarine patent risk
  642. # [21:53] <Hixie> sicking: argue with them, not me
  643. # [21:54] <sicking> Hixie, implementing anything new has submarine patent risk
  644. # [21:54] <sicking> Hixie, i know
  645. # [21:54] <Hixie> you'll note my employer is implementing everything :-)
  646. # [21:54] <Hixie> ogg theora, vorbis, 264, you name it
  647. # [21:54] <sicking> well, I can't say that I'm happy your employer is implementing things with known patents
  648. # [21:54] <sicking> but that's a separate conversaion
  649. # [21:54] <sicking> well, actually it's related
  650. # [21:55] <Hixie> yeah, well
  651. # [21:55] <Hixie> if the unpatented formats didn't suck...
  652. # [21:55] <Hixie> but anyway
  653. # [21:55] <Hixie> i don't want to argue about it
  654. # [21:55] <Rik|work> Hixie: i really think that's no big deal for the spec, we'll see something similar to what happened with jpg, png and gif
  655. # [21:55] <Hixie> i just want to whine that this makes my life hard from the html5 perspective
  656. # [21:56] <sicking> the thing is, the "we won't implement anything with submarine patent risk" argument is BS. What it really is is "the risk/reward ratio isn't good enough right now"
  657. # [21:56] <Hixie> Rik|work: maybe, though the codec space is _much_, _much_ more patent-encumbered.
  658. # [21:56] <Hixie> sicking: yeah i was simplifying their position for effect, you're right that it's really about risk/reward.
  659. # [21:56] <sicking> we can't do anything to lower the risk part, so we'll have to up the reward part
  660. # [21:56] <Rik|work> gif was patent-encumbered and yet everybody used it
  661. # [21:56] <sicking> which means that we have to get people to use ogg, and only ogg
  662. # [21:56] <annevk42> the GIF patent only covered encoding
  663. # [21:56] <annevk42> not decoding
  664. # [21:57] <Hixie> Rik|work: (a) it wasn't thought to be originally, (b) it was only encoding that was covered, so browsers were safe, and (c) yeah, that's why people are paranoid now
  665. # [21:57] <Hixie> anyway
  666. # [21:57] <Hixie> i should go get lunch
  667. # [21:57] <Hixie> bbl
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  669. # [21:58] <sicking> Rik|work, what hixie said. GIF isn't a proof doing patented stuff is fine. It's a lesson costly learned
  670. # [22:03] <gauthierm> Mozilla's doing some good work to make theora suck less.
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  673. # [22:11] <sayrer> sicking: the key part is "not arguing about right and wrong"
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  675. # [22:13] <sayrer> oh wouldn't it be nice to take an amoral stance regarding <video>
  676. # [22:14] <sayrer> Mozilla could drop Windows Media in there
  677. # [22:14] <sayrer> and we'd have a lot of the Web taken care of
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  682. # [22:17] <annevk42> sayrer, isn't that sort of what enabling GStreamer does?
  683. # [22:18] <sayrer> yes, but if we did (have? not sure if we went for it) I would and do openly disagree that it is the right thing
  684. # [22:19] <sayrer> I wouldn't make up some absurd rationalization
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  686. # [22:20] <annevk42> not yet apparently
  687. # [22:20] <sayrer> yeah, I don't like it, but I also haven't spent much time working on the mobile product or the video element
  688. # [22:21] <annevk42> (I actually thought it was in, but https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422540 suggests it isn't)
  689. # [22:21] <sayrer> mozilla also doesn't publish mass quantities of h264 video
  690. # [22:21] <sayrer> so there is that
  691. # [22:22] <sayrer> anyway, the whole "some people have paid MPEG-LA, some people haven't, so it's a tossup" argument is just such bullshit
  692. # [22:23] <sayrer> try applying that logic to any number of historical dilemmas
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  709. # [23:16] <darbour> I'm having a problem with htmllib5 sanitizer if anyone can help
  710. # [23:17] <darbour> when I give "<p class="some-p">LALALLALA</p>" the sanitizer returns "<p class="some-p">blarg\n"
  711. # [23:17] <darbour> * replace LA* with blarg
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  713. # [23:19] <jgraham> darbour: In theory I can help but a) I'm about to go to bed and b) that seems rather odd
  714. # [23:20] <jgraham> Can you give an actually running example?
  715. # [23:21] <sayrer> I think he means that it eliminated his closing tag
  716. # [23:21] <darbour> exactly
  717. # [23:22] <darbour> sorry I was a little vague there
  718. # [23:22] <sayrer> it did that because it is not strictly necessary
  719. # [23:22] <sayrer> also, the sanitizer is pedantic
  720. # [23:22] <sayrer> there you go
  721. # [23:22] <sayrer> :)
  722. # [23:22] <jgraham> Oh. It sounds like it's the serializer setup you have or something
  723. # [23:23] <jgraham> Running code would still help :)
  724. # [23:23] <sayrer> I wonder if the html5lib sanitizer replaces font elements
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  728. # [23:23] <darbour> for <p class="first-p">1<br/>2</p> it returns <p class="first-p">1<br>2
  729. # [23:23] <darbour> where would i begin to look to stop this behavior?
  730. # [23:24] <jgraham> darbour: What do you mean "returns" usually the sanitizer returns an in-memory tree, not a string. How are you creating the string?
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  732. # [23:25] <annevk2> hmm, dropping the closing tag seems problematic
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  734. # [23:25] <jgraham> annevk2: I think that somewhere somethin is being serialized with omit-optional-tags=True
  735. # [23:26] <jgraham> Er but not quite called that
  736. # [23:26] <darbour> should I look at the html5lb serializer code?
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  738. # [23:28] <jgraham> darbour: In the HTMLSerializer there is an attribute omit_optional_tags which is True by default. I think if you set this to False on your serializer instance your problems will go away
  739. # [23:29] <darbour> awesome, I'll try that. Thanks for the help!
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  748. # [23:55] <annevk2> I tend to think http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/08/Dont-Break-The-Web#c1178698369 is still a pretty good answer to part of the conformance question
  749. # [23:59] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@69.30.57.90)
  750. # Session Close: Sat Jun 13 00:00:00 2009

The end :)