/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 13 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [00:34] <annevk2> sicking, could be that I missed something, but I believe it's just Mozilla that pays hsivonen for the validator work
  18. # [00:34] <sicking> annevk2, i thought w3c was planning on using some of his work too. Not sure if that has been decided for the HTML5 parser yet
  19. # [00:35] <Hixie> validator.w3.org uses some of the validator.nu code
  20. # [00:35] <Hixie> though in my experience hsivonen's instance is more reliable
  21. # [00:39] <annevk2> http://groups.google.com/group/native-client-announce/browse_thread/thread/e69fe64e8decbe16 -- interesting, albeit scary
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  24. # [00:41] <annevk2> Hixie, a DOMString can contain a zero byte too, that'd be problematic as well for Web Sockets
  25. # [00:41] <Hixie> why?
  26. # [00:41] <annevk2> isn't that the end marker?
  27. # [00:42] <Hixie> no, oxFF is
  28. # [00:42] <Hixie> 0xFF even
  29. # [00:42] <olliej> annevk2: Hixie: is there not a length property instead
  30. # [00:42] <Hixie> for binary data yes
  31. # [00:42] <olliej> all data should be considered binary
  32. # [00:42] <Hixie> not for text though
  33. # [00:42] <olliej> 0xff can occur in valid unicode
  34. # [00:42] <Hixie> not in utf-8
  35. # [00:43] <olliej> what about utf16
  36. # [00:43] <sayrer> annevk2: none of hsivonen's points seem to apply to @summary or <font> very well
  37. # [00:43] <Hixie> websocket uses utf-8
  38. # [00:43] <olliej> urgh
  39. # [00:43] <olliej> so we have to do a utf16-utf8 conversino :-/
  40. # [00:43] <annevk2> sayrer, yup
  41. # [00:44] <Hixie> olliej: i'd rather you have to do it than have every single web author out there have to do it
  42. # [00:44] <annevk2> sayrer, Hixie made a few additional points that seem to cover those
  43. # [00:44] <sayrer> annevk2: not really
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  45. # [00:44] <sayrer> but that's ok, I don't have to argue it
  46. # [00:45] <annevk2> me neither :)
  47. # [00:45] <sayrer> I'm just going to fork it :)
  48. # [00:45] <sayrer> now that I have some time
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  50. # [00:46] <annevk2> good idea
  51. # [00:46] <annevk2> hopefully the extra competition will turn into something useful
  52. # [00:47] <sayrer> maybe
  53. # [00:47] <annevk2> Hixie, ah ok
  54. # [00:47] <sayrer> I'm just going to cut, and insert text that lets anyone extend it. hopefully the extra competition turns into something useful.
  55. # [00:47] <Hixie> annevk2: hm?
  56. # [00:48] <annevk2> Hixie, my misreading of Web Sockets
  57. # [00:48] <Hixie> ah
  58. # [00:50] <annevk2> IETF drafts are distinctly unreadable :/
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  60. # [00:50] <sayrer> yeah, they need decorations about how they don't work
  61. # [00:51] <annevk2> they could use some hypertext, for starters :)
  62. # [00:53] <sayrer> and some newspeak
  63. # [00:54] <sayrer> they already of the amoral stance towards patents
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  65. # [00:54] <sayrer> half way there
  66. # [00:54] <sayrer> of the, have the
  67. # [00:54] <sayrer> you get it
  68. # [00:54] <annevk2> not really
  69. # [00:55] <sayrer> ok
  70. # [00:59] <Hixie> hm, annotations in rfcs describing which parts aren't actually implemented would be really useful
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  73. # [01:10] <sayrer> I love that no one has explained why font is bad
  74. # [01:11] <sayrer> "you might be able to create inaccessible websites"
  75. # [01:11] <sayrer> still true with html5
  76. # [01:11] <sayrer> don't let that stop you
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  125. # [05:05] <ezyang> Gah, more changes :-)
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  173. # [10:59] * jgraham notes he did try to explain some problems with <font>
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  190. # [15:12] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  191. # [15:12] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  192. # [15:13] <gsnedders> archtech: The actual parsing of entities we can't really change (because of need for compat. with existing content), what we can change is what is conforming, and making & legal on its own gets fairly complex.
  193. # [15:13] <archtech> gsnedders, the format of entities is that above today
  194. # [15:14] <annevk42> e.g. &copy= does turn into ©=
  195. # [15:14] <gsnedders> archtech: It isn't. Things like &copy do parse like that, and need to for compatibility, even though they are non-conforming.
  196. # [15:15] <archtech> gsnedders, not every non-conforming change should be supported
  197. # [15:15] <gsnedders> archtech: Browser vendors will not make changes to parsing that breaks existing content.
  198. # [15:16] <gsnedders> (And that is absolutely non-negotiable: if the spec changes to something incompatible, we'll just break the spec)
  199. # [15:16] <archtech> gsnedders, does that mean <b> foo <i> bar </i> baz </b> is part of HTML5
  200. # [15:16] <archtech> ops
  201. # [15:16] <archtech> I mean b i b i
  202. # [15:16] <gsnedders> archtech: It has a defined parse tree. It is non-conforming.
  203. # [15:16] <gsnedders> archtech: Any character stream has a defined parse tree.
  204. # [15:17] <archtech> So is that valid HTML5?
  205. # [15:17] <gsnedders> archtech: No, it is non-conforming.
  206. # [15:17] <archtech> gsnedders, but &copy= is?
  207. # [15:17] <gsnedders> archtech: No, that is non-conforming too.
  208. # [15:17] <archtech> I see.
  209. # [15:18] <archtech> So HTML5 defines the exact behavior of non-conforming code.
  210. # [15:18] <gsnedders> Yes.
  211. # [15:18] <archtech> And & as a literal is supported, but non-conforming.
  212. # [15:18] <archtech> For example: M & M
  213. # [15:19] <gsnedders> archtech: That is legal because a whitespace character follows it
  214. # [15:20] <archtech> I see.
  215. # [15:20] <archtech> Thanks for the info, guys
  216. # [15:21] <gsnedders> archtech: The only place you're allowed a & followed by anything within script and style
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  218. # [15:25] <archtech> gsnedders, sure
  219. # [15:25] <archtech> those are defined as literal blocks terminated by strictly </script> and </style> I suppose
  220. # [15:25] <archtech> this is their de-facto behavior.
  221. # [15:25] <gsnedders> Yeah
  222. # [15:25] <archtech> nice
  223. # [15:25] <gsnedders> (case insensitively)
  224. # [15:25] <archtech> oh yea
  225. # [15:28] <archtech> I gotta check how html5 deals with textarea
  226. # [15:28] <archtech> ;)
  227. # [15:28] <archtech> entities are supported.. but nothing else :)
  228. # [15:29] <archtech> curious one
  229. # [15:29] * gsnedders is kinda running around, but can probably answer most of these questions :)
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  241. # [16:57] <Philip`> archtech: Actually they're terminated by "</script" and "</style" (case-insensitively) followed by whitespace or "/" or ">" or EOF
  242. # [17:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: Not EOF, I thought, after the latest change.
  243. # [17:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, I guess the contents to remain, we just drop the end tag
  244. # [17:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'm just going by what http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#close-tag-open-state says, for look-ahead recognition of the end tag
  245. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: You're right.
  246. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ignore me, I'm ignorant.
  247. # [17:08] <Philip`> annevk42: Having not thought about it very much, I dislike the idea of NaCl because it provides a significant drawback to non-x86 CPUs
  248. # [17:08] <gsnedders> NaCI?
  249. # [17:09] <Philip`> (and currently you can use non-x86 CPUs reasonably happy if you're running open source software and web stuff and not Flash, so if lots of people used NaCl then it'd have a significant effect on that)
  250. # [17:09] <Philip`> s/happy/happily/
  251. # [17:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://code.google.com/p/nativeclient/
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  253. # [17:10] * Philip` suggests gsnedders gets a font where l and I look different :-p
  254. # [17:10] <gsnedders> ah
  255. # [17:11] <gsnedders> They do, they have slightly different heights :P
  256. # [17:12] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-7-151.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  257. # [17:14] <Philip`> (You could emulate x86 on other ISAs but it's going to be pretty rubbish at performance, particularly if the code uses SSE, and it's marketed for computation-intensive processes)
  258. # [17:14] <Philip`> s/it's/NaCl is/
  259. # [17:18] <annevk42> can someone run http://xmlhttprequest.testsuite.org/dump/2009/status/001.htm in IE8?
  260. # [17:19] <annevk42> same for http://xmlhttprequest.testsuite.org/dump/2009/status/statustext.htm
  261. # [17:20] <Philip`> annevk42: "1xundefined,1xundefined,2x200,3x200,4x200" on 001.htm
  262. # [17:20] <itpastorn> FFox: 1xundefined,1xundefined,2xOK,3xOK,4xOK
  263. # [17:20] <itpastorn> MSIE 8: 1xundefined,1xundefined,2xundefined,3x200,4x200
  264. # [17:21] <Philip`> annevk42: "1xundefined,1xundefined,2xOK,3xOK,4xOK" on statustext.htm
  265. # [17:22] <itpastorn> My MSIE result was from 001.htm
  266. # [17:23] <annevk42> your MSIE results are different :/
  267. # [17:23] <itpastorn> Let me try again
  268. # [17:24] <Philip`> I definitely get "2x200" on 001.htm
  269. # [17:24] <annevk42> I like your result better :)
  270. # [17:24] <Philip`> not in compatibility view
  271. # [17:24] <Philip`> (I think)
  272. # [17:25] <annevk42> oh wait
  273. # [17:26] <itpastorn> 1xundefined,1xundefined,2x200,3x200,4x200 in non compat view. 1xundefined,1xundefined,2x200,3x200,4x200 in compat view
  274. # [17:26] <annevk42> cheers, can you run them again? I made a small change to see where that undefined comes from
  275. # [17:27] <itpastorn> 1x[object Error],1x[object Error],2x200,3x200,4x200 Compat view
  276. # [17:27] <annevk42> cool
  277. # [17:28] <itpastorn> 1xError: Odefinierat fel.,1xError: Odefinierat fel.,2x200,3x200,4x200 Non-compat view (Swedish for "undefined error")
  278. # [17:28] <annevk42> seems everyone is pretty much the same then apart from Opera :/
  279. # [17:29] <annevk42> and only WebKit throws the correct exception
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  290. # [18:56] <archtech> Philip`, so this would work? </script/
  291. # [18:56] <archtech> Interesting.
  292. # [18:57] <archtech> I only now realise how painful it is to reverse engineer a standard from a bunch of shoddy implementations ;)
  293. # [18:57] <Philip`> archtech: I don't know whether there's something to throw away incomplete tags and throw away unclosed script elements, in which case you might need </script/> instead
  294. # [18:58] <Philip`> (I remember some discussion about those issues a while ago but don't know what the spec says now)
  295. # [18:58] <archtech> Philip`, I have a slight complaint about the content models.
  296. # [18:58] <archtech> HTML4 seems to define those more clearly, and they match better what display property in CSS exposes
  297. # [18:59] <archtech> Also textarea has content model "text" which is not covered anywhere in the content model section it seems.
  298. # [18:59] <Philip`> archtech: You should probably complain to Hixie :-)
  299. # [18:59] <archtech> Hehe :)
  300. # [18:59] <Philip`> archtech: Also, are you looking at the "HTML 5: The Markup Language" document, rather than the main spec?
  301. # [18:59] <Philip`> in which case "text" is probably a RELAX NG type or something
  302. # [19:00] <archtech> Philip`, I think I'm looking at the last published spec
  303. # [19:01] * Philip` actually looks at the spec
  304. # [19:01] <Philip`> Oh, yes, it says "Content model: Text."
  305. # [19:01] <archtech> Actually I'm looking at "W3C Working Draft 23 April 2009"
  306. # [19:01] <archtech> Here: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
  307. # [19:01] <archtech> Check section 3.4 Content models
  308. # [19:01] <archtech> There's no "text" in there :P
  309. # [19:01] <archtech> I'm not sure also why phrasing/heading content are differentiated?
  310. # [19:02] <archtech> Headings seem to behave mostly like paragraphs.
  311. # [19:02] <Philip`> (It's probably better to look at http://whatwg.org/html5 or http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ to get the latest version)
  312. # [19:02] <archtech> Ah ok./
  313. # [19:03] * Philip` doesn't really know anything about content models
  314. # [19:03] <annevk42> is "#PCDATA" really that much clearer than "Text"?
  315. # [19:04] <archtech> annevk2, hehe. There's link and PCDATA is defined ;)
  316. # [19:05] <annevk42> there's no link for me under http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.7
  317. # [19:05] <annevk42> I agree though that "Text" needs a definition
  318. # [19:06] <archtech> :)
  319. # [19:07] <gsnedders> archtech: CDATA can end with the </ + tagname followed by tab, lf, ff, space, >, /, or EOF
  320. # [19:09] <annevk42> that's not an exhaustive definition
  321. # [19:09] <annevk42> e.g. it does not cover </script foobar>
  322. # [19:10] <Philip`> Why doesn't it cover that case? That's the tag name followed by space, and it ends CDATA
  323. # [19:10] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  324. # [19:10] <Philip`> (unless I'm hopelessly mistaken)
  325. # [19:11] <annevk42> archtech, oh, Text is defined in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#text-0
  326. # [19:11] <gsnedders> annevk2: it's followed by space, so it does cover that
  327. # [19:11] <gsnedders> annevk2: (The fact that the space is then followed by other stuff is beside the point :P)
  328. # [19:11] <annevk42> I see..
  329. # [19:12] <annevk42> archtech, but I'd still email if I were you because a) it isn't linked and b) it's defined in a section specific to HTML
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  339. # [20:05] <Philip`> If I wrote something like "The smallest positive numbers are 1, 2, 3, <abbr title='4, 5, 6, ...'>...</abbr>", so you can (partially) expand the "..." text via the tooltip (or equivalent in your independent medium), would I be shot for violations against semantics or is it fine?
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  344. # [20:39] <jjlee> is it a known issue that html5lib trunk's html5lib.serializer.htmlserializer is broken?
  345. # [20:40] <jjlee> seems somebody changed string constants into numeric ones
  346. # [20:42] <jjlee> I should say, branch "default", I think (I'm new to hg)
  347. # [20:43] <jjlee> hmm, runtests.sh fails with SyntaxError. Presumably that *is* a known issue.
  348. # [20:44] <jjlee> in which case, I guess there are two reasons why http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/ shouldn't say "The SVN trunk is currently rather stable in anticipation of 0.12"
  349. # [20:44] <jjlee> first, it's not stable
  350. # [20:44] <jjlee> second, it's not in SVN any more (I assume)
  351. # [20:48] <annevk2> hmm, jgraham would know more
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  369. # [23:03] <Lachy_> gsnedders, re twitter, what exactly are you expecting Audi to win or lose? is it a race or something? http://twitter.com/gsnedders/status/2157634810
  370. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Lachy_: 24 Heures du Mans
  371. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Lachy_: They have won every year from 2000 to 2008, except for 2003 which they did not enter.
  372. # [23:05] <Lachy_> is that the french name for 24 Hours of Le Mans
  373. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Lachy_: Oui
  374. # [23:06] <Lachy_> I thought Le Mans was already French. I wonder why they say "du Mans" instead
  375. # [23:06] <gsnedders> "le" is the masculine form of the definite article
  376. # [23:07] <Lachy_> ok
  377. # [23:07] <gsnedders> For masculine "of", "du" is used, which means either "of" or "of the"
  378. # [23:07] <gsnedders> So the "le" vanishes
  379. # [23:08] <Lachy_> anyway, I've not seen that race before. What kind of track do they race on?
  380. # [23:09] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-236-4.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  381. # [23:09] <Lachy_> found it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_Mans#The_circuit
  382. # [23:09] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-236-4.range81-156.btcentralplus.com)
  383. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Lachy_: A high speed one.
  384. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Lachy_: 24 Heures du Mans
  385. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Lachy_: Oh, that on my clip board?
  386. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Lachy_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_de_la_Sarthe
  387. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Lachy_: There we go, that's what I meant to paste :P
  388. # [23:11] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  389. # [23:13] <Lachy> ok, so it seems similar to the Bathurst 24 Hour, except it
  390. # [23:13] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  391. # [23:13] <Lachy> it's been running for a lot longer
  392. # [23:13] <gsnedders> A lot quicker cars :)
  393. # [23:14] <Lachy> Are you saying we drive slow race cars in Aus?
  394. # [23:14] <gsnedders> I think it's true that the quickest cars at Bathurst are the slowest at Le Mans
  395. # [23:15] <Lachy> do you know about the Bathurst race?
  396. # [23:15] <gsnedders> a bit
  397. # [23:15] <Lachy> wow, you're the first non-Australian I know who's heard of it
  398. # [23:16] <gsnedders> hehe
  399. # [23:22] <annevk2> per wikipedia Bathurst 24 Hour only ran for years
  400. # [23:22] <annevk2> two years*
  401. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Lachy: (We're talking that the top cars have over 700 hp/tonne)
  402. # [23:23] <gsnedders> annevk2: That's untrue
  403. # [23:23] <gsnedders> No, I'm being dumb. It's 12 hour and 1000km races it's known for.
  404. # [23:25] <gsnedders> (The race that became the 1000km race goes back to 1963)
  405. # [23:28] * jgraham is disturbed that there seems to be a useful productive discussion about <video> going on
  406. # [23:29] <jgraham> That violates one of the unshakable pillars of my existance
  407. # [23:30] <jgraham> jjlee: It is known that the html5lib trunk is somewhat broken
  408. # [23:30] <annevk2> that sounds a bit dramatic jgraham
  409. # [23:31] <jgraham> I merged in support for namespaced content in the main treebuilder and it has broken all the bits that I didn't fix on the branch e.g. all the stuff that relies on treewalkers
  410. # [23:31] <jgraham> annevk2: Really?
  411. # [23:33] <annevk2> your existance is in part based and in fact relies on unproductive discussions about <video>?
  412. # [23:33] <jgraham> jjlee: So I should fix it soon I guess. Sorry for the inconvenience
  413. # [23:33] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  414. # [23:35] <jgraham> annevk2: It's more that it invalidated my theory that it was no longer possible to have a sensible conversation about any remotely controversial HTML-related topic without one or more of the participants acting like a complete arsehat
  415. # [23:36] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@U143c.u.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  416. # [23:36] <jgraham> So I don't know if this says good things about Mike Shaver and Chris DiBona or bad things about everyone else
  417. # [23:37] <annevk2> lets go for somewhere inbetween
  418. # [23:38] <jgraham> I was going for "both" which was a bit depressing becuase I'm in the set of everyone else
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  422. # Session Close: Sun Jun 14 00:00:00 2009

The end :)