/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 15 00:00:00 2009
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  6. # [00:57] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  7. # [00:57] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  11. # [02:58] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  12. # [02:58] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  13. # [02:59] <heycam> Hixie, how many objects need to do this?
  14. # [02:59] <heycam> (wondering whether it's worth having a special xattr for it)
  15. # [02:59] <heycam> i think the sentence should be fine
  16. # [03:00] <Hixie> right now i only know of one, and i wouldn't say it needs it per se -- just that i would have used such a feature if it was available
  17. # [03:00] <heycam> "In the ECMAScript binding, host objects that implement interface Blah have a [[Call]] method that does ...."
  18. # [03:00] <heycam> k
  19. # [03:04] <Hixie> what would "...." be?
  20. # [03:04] <Hixie> "invokes the [[Get]] operator with the same argument"?
  21. # [03:04] <Hixie> (just putting this in a comment for now in the spec in case i find we do need it)
  22. # [03:04] <heycam> well not quite, you'll have to deal with different numbers of arguments i suppose
  23. # [03:04] <heycam> what happens if you pass 0 or more than 1 arg?
  24. # [03:05] <Hixie> dunno, haven't tested
  25. # [03:11] <heycam> so i'd do "... [[Call]] method that behaves as follows: 1. If called with 0 or more than 1 argument, throw a TypeError. 2. Let arg be the single argument passed. 3. Invoke [[Get]] on the object with ToString(argument) as the property name. 4. Return Result(3)."
  26. # [03:11] <heycam> or so
  27. # [03:11] <Hixie> k, thanks
  28. # [03:13] <heycam> c
  29. # [03:13] <heycam> ww sorry
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  66. # [08:17] <Hixie> annevk42: yt? wondering what the timeline you're expecting for cssom is, and whether you think that'd be a good spec to have define when the 'resize' and 'scroll' events fire
  67. # [08:18] <hsivonen> argh. lots of email about validation over the weekend
  68. # [08:28] * weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
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  71. # [08:32] <sinclair> hello all
  72. # [08:33] <sinclair> so, anyone in here using O3D?
  73. # [08:36] <sinclair> im trying to find a online chat community who is working on O3D
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  75. # [08:36] <sinclair> hello
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  91. # [09:55] <annevk42> Hixie, I basically haven't found time to work on CSSOM for the past year or so
  92. # [09:56] <annevk42> Hixie, though resize and scroll could I suppose be part of the subset that is CSSOM Vie
  93. # [09:56] <annevk42> w
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  95. # [10:01] <jgraham> What happens if I have some HTML like <body bgcolor="black"><article><font color="white">... and the <article> contents ends up in a feed? ill it be unreadable? Taking some but not all style information seems like it could be dangerous
  96. # [10:01] <jgraham> s/ill/will/
  97. # [10:03] <Dashiva> jgraham: Well, that's "wrong" to begin with
  98. # [10:03] <jgraham> Dashiva: In what way?
  99. # [10:03] <jgraham> Under the assumption that anything that works in a UA is conforming
  100. # [10:03] <Dashiva> You should set text color on the body element as well
  101. # [10:04] <Dashiva> Always specify foreground and background together
  102. # [10:04] <jgraham> Dashiva: According to whom? Not according to the supposed no-author-requirements HTML spec
  103. # [10:05] <Dashiva> According to the best practices that are supposed to replace them
  104. # [10:05] <Dashiva> No requirements includes the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot
  105. # [10:06] <jgraham> Yeah but I'm trying to work out why that's a good thing
  106. # [10:06] <Dashiva> Has anyone claimed that?
  107. # [10:07] <jgraham> That having no author requirements is a good thing? Sure
  108. # [10:07] <Dashiva> That's a choice between evils, not goods
  109. # [10:07] <jgraham> Can you explain more?
  110. # [10:07] <Dashiva> Requirements come with ratholes, bikesheds, and aren't enforced
  111. # [10:08] <Dashiva> The argument (as I read it) goes that avoiding all those weighs up for the loss of the guideance authority that could be provided
  112. # [10:08] <jgraham> Lack of requirments will come with a huge rathole, at the bottom of which will be the original ratholes but renamed "best practices"
  113. # [10:09] <jgraham> So I don't see any possibility for gain here
  114. # [10:09] <Dashiva> That is the gain
  115. # [10:09] <Dashiva> That huge rathole will always be there, that's what good authoring is all about
  116. # [10:09] <Dashiva> But without requirements, we outsource the war over where the hole should be
  117. # [10:10] <jgraham> As far as I can tell the main agenda here is that some people don't like the HTML5 draft because it doesn't endorse something that they hold dear to them. So they have decided that the only way out is to try to remove all restrictions and be told "do what you like"
  118. # [10:10] <Dashiva> Well, the basic complaint holds: What use are requirements that no one actually requires?
  119. # [10:11] <jgraham> Sometimes this is wrapped up in theoretical RFC 2119 arguments
  120. # [10:12] <jgraham> Dashiva: The point of authoring requirements in a language with error correcting clients is not to describe the only possible way of doing things
  121. # [10:12] <jgraham> It is to reduce the authoring surface of the language so that it does not grow without bounds and so there are as few sharp edges as possible
  122. # [10:13] <Dashiva> But nobody reads those requirements
  123. # [10:13] <jgraham> Dashiva: Demonstrably untrue
  124. # [10:13] <Dashiva> They read second- or third-hand references that also includes local author intent, best practices, misconceptions, urban legends, etc etc
  125. # [10:14] <jgraham> There has been a huge movement toward following standards. Yes there is a lot of cargo cult nonsense. But there is enough essentially good stuff that we should no thro the whole thing away just to make the lives of spec authors better
  126. # [10:14] <jgraham> We even have a design principle about that
  127. # [10:14] <Dashiva> Nobody's saying we should throw it away
  128. # [10:14] <jgraham> Dashiva: They really are
  129. # [10:15] <Dashiva> They may think so
  130. # [10:15] <Dashiva> But those references people use will still exist
  131. # [10:15] <Dashiva> It's only mark's assholes that will be weakened
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  133. # [10:17] <jgraham> Dashiva: I would expect one effect of removing conformance requirements to be that people will start to reject HTML5 for cargo-cult reasons
  134. # [10:17] <Dashiva> Oh, sure. But there wouldn't be anything for them to reject. It would be a user agent spec full and whole.
  135. # [10:17] <jgraham> Dashiva: Not really.
  136. # [10:18] <jgraham> It still will define a language
  137. # [10:18] <jgraham> It just won't tell you which bits are a really bad idea
  138. # [10:18] <Dashiva> Now we're back at html4 ground
  139. # [10:18] <jgraham> ?
  140. # [10:18] <Dashiva> The language in the spec does not matter for authors, authors and users only go via user agents
  141. # [10:19] <jgraham> But we just discussed this. Authors learn from somewhere and that somewhere often has looked at the spec
  142. # [10:19] <jgraham> And authors do use vaidators
  143. # [10:20] <jgraham> and validators have read the spec for sure
  144. # [10:20] <Dashiva> But again the authors don't go directly to the spec
  145. # [10:20] <Dashiva> They see the validator's rules, which would include all kinds of best practices
  146. # [10:21] <jgraham> Dashiva: What kind of best practices are encoded by validator.w3.org or validator.nu, beyond what is in the spec?
  147. # [10:21] <Dashiva> All the author requirements
  148. # [10:22] <jgraham> I mean today
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  150. # [10:22] <Dashiva> Today there isn't much need, henri gets it put into the spec instead
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  152. # [10:22] <Dashiva> In particular the downplayed errors, he seems to be the main driving force there
  153. # [10:23] <jgraham> Dashiva: The concept of downplayed errors is silly
  154. # [10:23] <jgraham> That is a UI issue
  155. # [10:23] <Dashiva> If so, that strenghtens the point
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  157. # [10:24] <Dashiva> These are things he doesn't want the validator to mark as errors. Now he's working inside the spec, if the spec dropped author reqs he would just go ahead and do it directly
  158. # [10:24] <Philip`> What if someone else writing a different validator has different ideas of what should be considered an error or a warning?
  159. # [10:25] <jgraham> Dashiva: So in the future what do you envison? validator.w3.org uses best practices document A. commercial.validator.org uses weaker best practices document B to iucrease marketshare. Validator validate.net is written by areholes and has a whole load of additional requirements. An author tries to validate her document. What does she conclude?
  160. # [10:25] <Dashiva> Then you get competition in who validates the best
  161. # [10:25] <Philip`> Putting those requirements in the spec prevents the benefits of competition, because there will only be one official blessed notion of validity
  162. # [10:25] <Philip`> which seems similar to the argument against putting machine-readable schemas in the spec
  163. # [10:25] <jgraham> Dashiva: Re: dowwnplayed errors, Henri can already choose to downplay any error he likes. It is a pure UI issue
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  165. # [10:26] <Dashiva> jgraham: Again, sure. It's not material to my point. The point is that he puts effort into convincing Hixie to mark them as downplayed. That means he cares.
  166. # [10:27] <jgraham> Philip`: The problem with putting schemas in the spec is that it is not possible to express all conformance requirements in schema and there is the possibility of divergence between the actual requirements and the schema (due either to the limitations or to bugs)
  167. # [10:28] <Dashiva> This situation exists even now, of course
  168. # [10:28] <Dashiva> There are requirements outside the HTML5 spec
  169. # [10:28] <jgraham> Dashiva: And I still maintain it is silly to have the requirements in the spec. So I don't see that I'm taking an inconsistent position
  170. # [10:28] <Dashiva> This whole thing would just be moving one set of requirements into some other (possible more than one) location
  171. # [10:29] <jgraham> s/requirements/downplayed errors/
  172. # [10:29] <Dashiva> It's not your position. His effort suggests that even if the spec did not have author requirements, he personally cares enough about these issues that his validator would have best practices for them
  173. # [10:30] <Dashiva> So no, validators would not just be windows onto the UA spec
  174. # [10:30] <jgraham> Dashiva: I don't understand your argument at all
  175. # [10:30] <jgraham> specifically the sentence "validators would not just be windows onto the UA spec
  176. # [10:30] <jgraham> "
  177. # [10:31] <Dashiva> [10:17:05] <jgraham> Dashiva: What kind of best practices are encoded by validator.w3.org or validator.nu, beyond what is in the spec?
  178. # [10:31] <jgraham> "The spec" in this case is not just a "UA spec" though
  179. # [10:32] <Dashiva> Now we're just repeating ourselves
  180. # [10:32] <Dashiva> The validator doesn't have its own requirements because they're in the spec. If they're not in the spec, they would be in the validator instead (so the validator itself wouldn't change)
  181. # [10:34] <jgraham> There is no disagreement about what the requirements are. There is only the issue of whether some errors should be displayed with greater weight. That, to me, is a UI issue and I think that it shouldn't be in the spec
  182. # [10:35] <Dashiva> Leave that issue. It's just an example to show that henri personally cares about some of the requirements, to support the claim that the validator would still have requirements if they weren't in the spec
  183. # [10:35] <jgraham> So I disagree with Henri here. But I don't feel bad about it too much because I disagree with Henri less than almost anyone else involved with HTML5 :)
  184. # [10:36] <jgraham> Dashiva: Your argument seems totally unjustified. Unless you can point to things that are not in the spec but Henri has included as requirements anyway I don't think that you can conclude that he would do such a thing
  185. # [10:37] <jgraham> I also don't think it's very relevant to whether, overall, there is any benefit to be gained by removing all the author requirements from HTML5
  186. # [10:37] <jgraham> Anyway, I guess I should do something more useful...
  187. # [10:38] <Dashiva> We were there earlier
  188. # [10:39] <Dashiva> It's related because it claims that validators wouldn't change much. And validators and non-primary sources are where authors go
  189. # [10:39] <Dashiva> => Things would not change for authors and users
  190. # [10:40] <jgraham> I still disagree but there se go
  191. # [10:40] <jgraham> *we
  192. # [10:40] <Dashiva> Sure, you might get small civil wars over what best practices are best, but that would be hidden to most people. And it already happens, just look at WCAG Samurai
  193. # [10:43] <jgraham> Actually the accessibility space is a great example of wwhy this kind of thing can be a disaster. There are so many documents relating to WCAG that it is almost impossible to tell where you should look for any given thing. And so you ask an "expert" and get an answer. And ask another "expert" and get a different answer. And so on...
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  195. # [10:44] <Philip`> Does anyone take any notice of the WCAG Samurai's suggestions, or is it evidence that everyone just follows the most official sounding guidelines (from the W3C) and ignores everything else regardless of merits?
  196. # [10:44] <Dashiva> I think the evidence is that people ignore everything, period
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  204. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Dashiva: actually, I don't get to put stuff in the spec. If I did, td@align and object@classid would be valid by now.
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  206. # [12:32] <hsivonen> v.nu has non-spec-backed warnings especially around the area of authors shooting themselves in the foot by not using UTF-8
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  211. # [13:07] <annevk42> hsivonen, sync XHR is superevil
  212. # [13:07] <annevk42> also to spec
  213. # [13:08] <annevk42> though I think I have it nailed down now
  214. # [13:14] <hsivonen> I wonder if the script execution code in any browser is clear to someone who just reads it
  215. # [13:14] <hsivonen> anyway, it seems I managed to make http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/test/test_bug461555.html not crash
  216. # [13:14] <hsivonen> yay
  217. # [13:17] * hsivonen observes that it would be appropriate to call Lamborghinis dump trucks if the large majority of Lamborghini drivers used them as dump trucks
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  219. # [13:45] * gsnedders guesses that is some reference to a post on the list
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  221. # [14:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: No actually it is true that most owners of italian sportscars use them mainly for taking stuff to the dump. Researchers say "the have such small boots that it can require hundreds of trips to dispose of the cuttings every time you trim your garden hedge"
  222. # [14:01] <gsnedders> :P
  223. # [14:05] <beowulf> i looked at a disabled car parking space the other day, it'd be almost impossible to implement something like that incorrectly
  224. # [14:06] <beowulf> and easy to do as well, just paint some lines
  225. # [14:13] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-249-65.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  226. # [14:22] <annevk42> I will toally include <supercalifragilisticexpialidocious> in all my documents from now on
  227. # [14:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: I am interested to know what you think of the argument that making <font> non conforming has positive implications for the learnability of the language (due to making it smaller)
  228. # [14:22] <jgraham> And by helping authors avoid doing things that are belived to be bad
  229. # [14:23] <annevk42> (why: http://www.w3.org/mid/5D1706DF-0909-418F-8592-24535A5C19A1@iki.fi )
  230. # [14:23] <jgraham> Specifically the difference beteen <font> and <span style> is that authors using <span> must be aware of CSS and have taken a concious decision to use inline style in place of seperated style
  231. # [14:23] <jgraham> That seems like a positive ting
  232. # [14:24] <jgraham> If a tool emits <span style> in place of <font> it is neutral
  233. # [14:24] <jgraham> So therefore removing <font> seems to have an overall positive balance
  234. # [14:25] <hsivonen> somehow I'm more annoyed when OpenOffice.org or Nvu emit style=''
  235. # [14:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: Is that just an aethetic preference though?
  236. # [14:25] <jgraham> *aesthetic
  237. # [14:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: I tend to think that HTML already has enough weird corners that learnability needs to be achieved by prioritizing what to reveal and what order to a learner
  238. # [14:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: no, if you use TextWrangler's grep find&replace to zap style='', you then need to separately zap spans, too
  239. # [14:26] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  240. # [14:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: What weird corners are part of the conforming language? Optional tags I guess
  241. # [14:26] <Philip`> It seems a pain if you use <font> for most styling until you reach a point where you want e.g. small-caps and you have to switch to <span style> and now have to understand how to use both and how they interact, rather than simply using the more powerful mechanism from the start
  242. # [14:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: optional tags is the #1 thing, yes
  243. # [14:27] <jgraham> Philip`: Indeed
  244. # [14:27] <hsivonen> #1 weird corner, not #1 thing to learn
  245. # [14:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: I agree. <font color> makes some sense for GUI tool-generated visual empahasis as long as the GUI tool is simple enough not to support all of CSS
  246. # [14:28] <hsivonen> also, with <font face> and <font size>, you lose
  247. # [14:28] <jgraham> I note that we tried the wwhole <font>-for-GUI-tools only thing and people didn't go for it
  248. # [14:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: we tried a slightly different thing
  249. # [14:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: we tried <font style> for GUI tools
  250. # [14:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, I see sayre's point about survival in syndication
  251. # [14:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: I may misremembert but I'm not sure if the distincion makes a big difference
  252. # [14:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: It seems relatively dangerous to keep some but not all style during syndication since you could e.g. render some text invisible
  253. # [14:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah, it only works for <font color> red
  254. # [14:31] <hsivonen> if a user hits select all, picks a color and the editor generates a zillion <font>s, you lose
  255. # [14:32] <hsivonen> if the user selects two words and picks red, not generating <font color> is quite silly
  256. # [14:32] <Philip`> jgraham: Why is rendering some text invisible dangerous?
  257. # [14:33] <Philip`> jgraham: You could achieve the same effect by replacing all the text in your feed with whitespace
  258. # [14:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: Like I said I think the latter case is a wash compard to <span style>. At least, as Philip` said, if you select two words and select small caps you end up with the same markup
  259. # [14:33] <Philip`> jgraham: ...unless you mean "dangerous" as in "likely to go wrong", rather than "permitting malicious behaviour"
  260. # [14:33] <jgraham> Philip`: Not dangerous in the security sense, but in the UI sense
  261. # [14:33] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-1-121.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  262. # [14:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think small caps is on a more advanced level of typography than red
  263. # [14:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: different users. different classes of editor UIs
  264. # [14:34] * Quits: allanmac1 (n=allanmac@dsl092-075-022.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net) ("Leaving.")
  265. # [14:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm not sure there is any correlation between people who would use small caps and people who would use an advanced editor
  266. # [14:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: note how in my email, I didn't take the time to argue Sam's <font color> bait per se
  267. # [14:35] <jgraham> And if the use case is people who don't read the markup, I don't really see how <font> is an advantage
  268. # [14:36] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe a better example would be highlighting (as in <span style=background:yellow>...</span>), which in (at least) OO.o has almost exactly the same UI exposure as font colour
  269. # [14:36] <hsivonen> <font color> survives syndication and legacy tools better
  270. # [14:36] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no)
  271. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: indeed. much better example.
  272. # [14:37] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no) (Client Quit)
  273. # [14:37] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no)
  274. # [14:38] * jgraham is being slow and doesn't understand why that is a bette example
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  276. # [14:39] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-1c1157b885798961)
  277. # [14:39] <Philip`> jgraham: Because it's conceptually very similar to font colour (as evidenced by word processor UIs), and can be implemented with very similar markup if you use <span style>, but not if you use <font>
  278. # [14:39] <Philip`> so using <font> introduces an unnecessary distinction between those similar concepts
  279. # [14:40] * hsivonen notes that <font color> is one special thing compared to style="" like @summary is one special legacy thing compared to aria-describedby
  280. # [14:40] <Philip`> which makes everything harder to understand, and is more fragile when e.g. syndicators strip style attributes but not font elements
  281. # [14:40] <jgraham> Oh. OK that's what I though. But I wasn't sure if it was supposed to support hsivonen's point
  282. # [14:40] <hsivonen> or maybe aria-label considering that it's human-readable text hidden in an attribute
  283. # [14:40] <Philip`> I haven't been concentrating enough to read what hsivonen's point was so I don't know
  284. # [14:41] <hsivonen> my point is that if you want to make a principled markup about stuff that was in HTML 4, you'd better make sure your principle applies to <font color>, too
  285. # [14:41] <hsivonen> otherwise, you are just picking favorites while pretending to have a principle
  286. # [14:42] <hsivonen> s/principled markup/pricipled point/
  287. # [14:42] <hsivonen> or something
  288. # [15:07] * Quits: abarth (n=abarth@c-98-210-108-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  289. # [15:08] <annevk42> hsivonen, you could group all the font messages into one
  290. # [15:09] <annevk42> hsivonen, your page uses a legacy element called "font" please don't
  291. # [15:31] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-7-122.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  292. # [15:32] * Joins: darbour (n=darbour@nat/ibm/x-4645f9529a9039ef)
  293. # [15:35] <annevk42> licensing@fsf.org: will we now get an influx of laywers on whatwg@whatwg.org?
  294. # [15:35] <annevk42> oh, I guess blocking from third parties is still blocked
  295. # [15:35] * Joins: allanmac (n=allanmac@dsl017-091-222.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  296. # [15:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-1-121.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Nick collision from services.)
  297. # [15:36] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  298. # [15:36] * Parts: allanmac (n=allanmac@dsl017-091-222.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  299. # [15:45] <gsnedders> annevk2: Licensing@fsf.org is mainly volunteers, not all lawyers
  300. # [15:48] <annevk42> s/blocking/email/
  301. # [15:53] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-249-65.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  309. # [16:42] * gsnedders squints
  310. # [16:42] <gsnedders> There's a mysterious gap of trains between 15:42 and 17:42 from Nyköping to Linköping, right in the rush hour :\
  311. # [16:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: You really really want to take the bus
  312. # [16:43] <gsnedders> Ah, OK
  313. # [16:43] <gsnedders> How long does that take?
  314. # [16:44] <jgraham> 1.5 hours
  315. # [16:44] <jgraham> http://www.flygbussarna.se/
  316. # [16:44] <gsnedders> Yes, I've found taht already :P
  317. # [16:44] <gsnedders> *that
  318. # [16:44] <jgraham> http://www.flygbussarna.se/Default.aspx?lang=EN is even better
  319. # [16:45] <gsnedders> Yes, I found that actually :P
  320. # [16:45] <gsnedders> (I didn't find the Swedish.)
  321. # [16:45] <jgraham> Oh well wwhy are you asking how long it takes then?
  322. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Because I hadn't clicked through the three pages to the timetable and hadn't downloaded it yet, and I thought you'd know
  323. # [16:46] * Parts: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  324. # [16:46] * gsnedders guesses jgraham has probably flown from STN to NYO like he will be doing next week
  325. # [16:47] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  326. # [16:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just a little
  327. # [16:48] * gsnedders was just emailing Bibbi because she has the key to his flat, and he won't get to Linköping until a bit before 19:00
  328. # [16:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: What day of the wweek?
  329. # [16:48] <gsnedders> jgraham: Friday.
  330. # [16:48] * gsnedders is really inconvenient
  331. # [16:49] * jgraham wonders if he can fit a new keyboard in his hand luggage
  332. # [16:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh everyone will still be here for Friday beer
  333. # [16:49] <gsnedders> Ah
  334. # [16:49] <jgraham> If you mean Fri. 26th
  335. # [16:49] <gsnedders> Isn't a keyboard a bit big
  336. # [16:49] <gsnedders> yeah
  337. # [16:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Probably :(
  338. # [16:50] <gsnedders> hmm, fits in my laptop bag (which holds my 17" MBP)
  339. # [16:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: It is highly likely that bibbi will still be at the office then. You should of course check
  340. # [16:50] * gsnedders just emailed her
  341. # [16:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do you know your address?
  342. # [16:51] * jgraham is curious
  343. # [16:51] <gsnedders> Off the top of my head? No
  344. # [16:52] * Joins: remysharp (n=remyshar@remysharp.plus.com)
  345. # [16:53] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  348. # [17:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: But yeah, then I have the weekend to come to terms with where I am in the world :P
  349. # [17:05] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
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  351. # [17:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think I am busy that weekend but we should organise something social for the first weekend in July
  352. # [17:26] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip182.unival.com)
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  364. # [18:21] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  365. # [18:24] <takkaria> Opera does seem to gobble up whatwg people
  366. # [18:29] <Philip`> There must be sinister motives
  367. # [18:36] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@c-98-247-143-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  368. # [18:36] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  369. # [18:43] * gsnedders remembers talking with MikeSmith over lunch at TPAC about the percentage of Opera employees involved in W3C WGs
  370. # [18:50] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-169-7.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  371. # [19:02] <dglazkov> Philip`: do you have a bug in Chromium tracker for the canvas failures?
  372. # [19:05] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.207)
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  375. # [19:08] <Philip`> dglazkov: No - I've never properly looked at Chromium's behaviour on tests at all
  376. # [19:10] * Quits: myakura_ (n=myakura@p2188-ipbf6208marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  377. # [19:14] <jgraham> takkaria: When are you coming over?
  378. # [19:20] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-024c22ebfdc3a3e8) (Remote closed the connection)
  379. # [19:20] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.18.159.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
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  383. # [19:28] <takkaria> jgraham: Sunday morning
  384. # [19:29] <annevk42> are you all still there in August?
  385. # [19:29] <takkaria> I'm there til mid-September
  386. # [19:30] <annevk42> at one point I made this remark I'd visit Linkoping on another time then during the Christmas party, but I haven't made the time yet
  387. # [19:30] <takkaria> btw, do you pronounce Linköping as "linchurping"? I can't figure it out from my phraseboo
  388. # [19:31] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  389. # [19:31] <Philip`> How exciting, an IE compat list update
  390. # [19:32] <Philip`> Sites added: 7m.cn beijing.com.cn benq.com.cn btbroadbandinformation.com btopenworld.com chinanews.com.cn chinatelecom.com.cn donews.com foundertech.com gmail.com kooxoo.com mydown.com narrowad.com tobacco.gov.cn
  391. # [19:32] <annevk42> "linkshohping" or so
  392. # [19:32] <annevk42> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linköping might have better tips
  393. # [19:32] <Philip`> Sites removed: about.com desjardins.com guardian.co.uk hyves.net hyves.nl intuit.com me.com mozilla.com mozilla.org
  394. # [19:32] <krijnh> hyves.nl :S
  395. # [19:32] <jgraham> takkaria: Ah OK. I just thought I should check in cae you were on the same flight as me on Saturday
  396. # [19:33] <jgraham> Although I guess you are not flying from Stanstead
  397. # [19:33] <dglazkov> Philip`: ok
  398. # [19:33] <dglazkov> Philip`: I'll look over. Thanks for the test suite :)
  399. # [19:33] <Philip`> The IE compat list has very little activity, given that it's got three thousand entries and only a few dozen changes per month
  400. # [19:34] <takkaria> jgraham: no, I'm coming from manchester
  401. # [19:34] <takkaria> jgraham: are you doing Stanstead->Schiphol->Linkoping?
  402. # [19:34] <jgraham> takkaria: It has a soft k pronounciation so you ronounce it like lin-sher-ping
  403. # [19:34] <takkaria> right, gotcha
  404. # [19:34] <jgraham> or so
  405. # [19:34] <Philip`> Soft k? Crazy language :-(
  406. # [19:34] <jgraham> (imagine you are slurring the word shopping...)
  407. # [19:35] <annevk42> just write it on a piece of paper or laptop and show that to people
  408. # [19:35] <jgraham> takkaria: No STN-NYO w/ryanair
  409. # [19:35] <annevk42> they'll know what you mean :)
  410. # [19:35] <jgraham> Philip`: You're telling me. I still can't pronounce anything
  411. # [19:36] <jgraham> the sj and tj sound is... interesting
  412. # [19:36] <gsnedders> annevk42: I'm there until the 31st
  413. # [19:36] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  414. # [19:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: This Sat?
  415. # [19:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: yes
  416. # [19:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: You getting the 6:30am flight? :P
  417. # [19:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: No the on in the evening
  418. # [19:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hehe, I was expecting not :)
  419. # [19:38] * gsnedders wonders why he can't print
  420. # [19:38] <takkaria> I'm getting the 0600 out of manchester on sunday morning
  421. # [19:38] <takkaria> hellish really
  422. # [19:38] <gsnedders> Ow.
  423. # [19:39] * gsnedders is flying at 13:30 from STN -> NYO
  424. # [19:39] <takkaria> the alternative is getting to Linkoping airport at 11
  425. # [19:39] <gsnedders> (Next Friday)
  426. # [19:39] <takkaria> (11pm, that is)
  427. # [19:39] <gsnedders> Oh well, I get to cross another person off the list of cabal members to meet :P
  428. # [19:44] <annevk42> takkaria, just party until 3:30 and then take an hour and a half to get to the airport :)
  429. # [20:00] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  430. # [20:01] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
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  432. # [20:04] <annevk42> I wonder if http://www.cssquirrel.com/comic/?comic=22 influences my chances of getting invited to future BBQ parties
  433. # [20:09] * jgraham wonders if it is churlish to point out that alt=comic doesn't really help blind users much
  434. # [20:09] * Quits: sayrer (n=chatzill@adsl-99-164-175-193.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  435. # [20:09] <gsnedders> hah
  436. # [20:10] <annevk42> surely it has longdesc?
  437. # [20:10] <jgraham> Curiously not
  438. # [20:10] <annevk42> I'm so glad I live in the Netherlands
  439. # [20:11] <jgraham> annevk42: Why?
  440. # [20:11] <annevk42> I can already feel the wrath of John Foliot for these highly inappropriate jokes
  441. # [20:11] <Hixie> writing alt text for comics is actually surprisingly easy
  442. # [20:11] <annevk42> alt=":-)"
  443. # [20:13] <annevk42> Hixie, Google didn't do it though, for their huge Chrome comic book
  444. # [20:13] <Hixie> (photographs are a pain)
  445. # [20:13] <Hixie> annevk42: google put the chrome comic book online?
  446. # [20:13] <Hixie> sweet
  447. # [20:13] <Hixie> uri?
  448. # [20:13] <annevk42> like ages ago
  449. # [20:13] * Hixie has a book version of that
  450. # [20:14] <annevk42> seems to be here among other places: http://www.google.com/googlebooks/chrome/
  451. # [20:14] <Philip`> Hixie: http://www.google.com/search?q=chrome+comic+book
  452. # [20:14] <annevk42> fancy
  453. # [20:14] <Hixie> hm yeah, no alt text
  454. # [20:14] <Hixie> that is sad
  455. # [20:15] <Hixie> on another note, is it possible to remove duplicates from a list of strings in O() less than sorting a string?
  456. # [20:15] <Hixie> er
  457. # [20:15] <Hixie> sorting the list of strings
  458. # [20:16] <Philip`> Yes, if you don't care about memory usage
  459. # [20:17] <Philip`> (e.g. have a hash-set containing all the strings you've seen so far, and for each new string you do an O(1) test to see if it's new)
  460. # [20:17] <Philip`> (so it ends up as O(n) if you've got n strings)
  461. # [20:17] <Philip`> (vs O(n log n) for sorting)
  462. # [20:18] <Philip`> (which doesn't seem a hugely important difference in practice, since n will usually be 1 or sometimes 2)
  463. # [20:28] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  465. # [20:34] * Philip` decides to adopt a policy of not reading analogies
  466. # [20:37] * annevk42 wonders if he should point out that the new iPhone compass allows you to switch between true North and magnetic north
  467. # [20:44] * jgraham wonders wtf the anaology was supposed to mean
  468. # [20:44] <jgraham> and also wtf he can't spell
  469. # [20:45] <Hixie> Philip`: hmm, thanks
  470. # [20:46] <Hixie> wait was my compass analogy bad? or is this someone else's compass analogy
  471. # [20:46] <annevk42> you got a reply
  472. # [20:46] <Hixie> ah
  473. # [20:48] <jgraham> Hixie: FWIW I think "modifying user behaviour" is something that conformance requirements are supposed to do in the sense that the state "author behaviour given conformance requirements" is expected to be different from "author behaviour given no conformance requirements"
  474. # [20:49] <annevk42> people often get the compass interface wrong; don't fix the interface because experts tell you so; instead educate the masses
  475. # [20:49] <annevk42> so as anology that'd mean
  476. # [20:50] <annevk42> people often get summary wrong; don't fix summary because experts tell you so; instead educate the masses
  477. # [20:50] <Hixie> jgraham: i agree that, to the same extent as a compass is intended to modify user behaviour, a validator (and conformance requirements) are intended to modify user behaviour.
  478. # [20:51] <jgraham> Right
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  481. # [20:51] * jgraham is way too tired for the compass analogy
  482. # [20:53] <annevk42> it seems to me that true noth + gps obsoletes the need for a compass (maybe even gps by itself if you can walk around a bit) and any kind of trouble the masses might have in understanding it, but maybe that takes the anology too far
  483. # [20:54] <Philip`> I would expect the masses would have somewhat more trouble understanding a GPS device than a compass...
  484. # [20:55] <annevk42> I'm thinking of a map + arrow
  485. # [20:57] <annevk42> I'm not sure what's wrong with getting a better compass though. According to Wikipedia ships widely use a Gyrocompass, which points to true north
  486. # [20:58] <jgraham> annevk42: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocompass should explain the problem
  487. # [20:58] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kreiselkompass_Schnitt_Anschütz.jpg - looks like a great device to take on an orienteering trip
  488. # [20:58] <annevk42> there's a lot of issues with the magnetic north: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Magnetic_Pole#Magnetic_North_and_Magnetic_Declination
  489. # [20:59] <annevk42> jgraham, as I said the new iPhone does true north too
  490. # [20:59] <Philip`> I prefer the approach of not really caring much about where I'm going, and just looking at the sun to work out which direction is more likely to be north than south
  491. # [20:59] <jgraham> annevk42: It is kind of a pain if your phone battery dies when your are days from anywhere :)
  492. # [21:00] * Joins: allanmac (n=allanmac@dsl017-091-222.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  493. # [21:00] <jgraham> Philip`: To be fair it took you months to find Sainsburys so I don't really look to you as a source of wisdom on navigation
  494. # [21:00] <Hixie> lol
  495. # [21:00] * Parts: allanmac (n=allanmac@dsl017-091-222.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  496. # [21:01] <Philip`> jgraham: True :-(
  497. # [21:02] * gsnedders wonders how hard it is to find Sainsbury's
  498. # [21:02] <gsnedders> (I presume the Cambridge one, this is)
  499. # [21:02] <gsnedders> I mean, it's hardly as if it's that far from King's…
  500. # [21:03] <Philip`> It's easy to find - you just walk to Sidney Sussex, then turn around, and that's it
  501. # [21:04] <Philip`> It's right behind the Big Issue seller
  502. # [21:05] <gsnedders> I know where it is
  503. # [21:05] <gsnedders> I just wonder how it can be hard!
  504. # [21:05] <Philip`> It isn't
  505. # [21:05] * gsnedders must confess he constantly forgets where Sidney Sussex is though
  506. # [21:05] <Philip`> It's right next to Sainsbury's
  507. # [21:06] <gsnedders> (And then I get told, "it's opposite Sainsbury's", and I headdesk at forgetting that again.)
  508. # [21:06] * Philip` only knows where Sidney Sussex is because he had some supervisions there; he has no idea where any other colleges are
  509. # [21:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: Do you know where Clare is? Caius?
  510. # [21:07] <gsnedders> Catz? Queens'?
  511. # [21:08] * Quits: franksalim (n=frank@adsl-76-243-95-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote closed the connection)
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  513. # [21:09] * gsnedders is still mildly amused by the fact that he seems to know Cambridge better than Philip`
  514. # [21:10] <Philip`> I could probably find them by walking around a bit and looking at the signs outside them, but I'd forget within a few hours
  515. # [21:24] <aroben> any idea where the definition of the Storage interface went?
  516. # [21:25] <Hixie> Web Storage
  517. # [21:25] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/
  518. # [21:26] <aroben> thanks!
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  522. # [21:49] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  523. # [21:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hint: They are all adjacent to King's
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  530. # [22:22] <annevk2> Hixie, "contains-p" does not work as variable in ECMAscript; I suggest containsP ;)
  531. # [22:25] * Quits: gauthier_ (n=gauthier@rind.silverorange.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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  535. # [22:36] <Hixie> annevk2: that's not better :-)
  536. # [22:36] <annevk2> at least it works
  537. # [22:38] <Hixie> well, contains-p does too (nobody said that was js, after all)
  538. # [22:38] <Hixie> bbiab, lunch
  539. # [22:38] <virtuelv> contains_p
  540. # [22:39] <annevk2> yeah, seems very likely authors will try it somewhere else o_O
  541. # [22:41] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-169-7.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  542. # [22:41] <Philip`> Kristof would try it in VBScript, I guess
  543. # [22:43] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-236-4.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  544. # [22:44] <annevk2> so does it work there?
  545. # [22:46] <Philip`> No
  546. # [22:48] <annevk2> heh, that was rhetorical question
  547. # [22:49] <Philip`> And that was a rhetorical answer
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  562. # [23:34] <Hixie> annevk2: fine fine :-P
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  566. # [23:51] <annevk2> oops, forgot to look for DOMStringList usage within HTML5
  567. # [23:59] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  568. # Session Close: Tue Jun 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)